Dear kingzson,
Before we start, PLEASE try and respond to my refutations that DISPROVE God being a single person. Did you or did you not read any of my responses and the questions that were addressed to you? You have not answered any of them because you CANNOT. You failed to answer any of my refutations but purposely bypassed all my questions and make an attempt to bombard me with your responses which BTW are so easily explained away. I haven't forgotten about my question. Do you know how debates work? I have seen many try and worm their way out of my questions by meticulously explaining their beliefs away in numerous words so as to make me forget what I once had addressed to them, well my friend I don't forget, Please answer my questions.
If I may clipboard my responses here once again so that you are not able to avoid them, here we go!
- John 17:24 - Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for (thou) lovedst (me) before the foundation of the world.
So who is Loving Jesus before the Foundation of the World?
2 Inescapable Facts within that verse, the words "Thou" and "Me" or more easily understood as You and Me, now does You and Me constitute as One person or Two?
- Furthermore if you have two witnesses how is then that the Son is the Same as the Father?
- Hold it right there my friend, if your going to preach the Truth then teach the Truth, God is three Eternal Persons without beginning nor end. Would you Like me to start another thread then we can go from there and I would be glad to refute you there. For starters the word manifested is phaneroo (fan-er-o'-o) which means to make known by teaching or to reveal a mystery which was previously unknown. If what your saying is True(Modalism) then how is possible that the Father is within Jesus, this makes it two Spirits. Was Jesus Praying to Himself? Please explain to me what this verse refers to and to whom is Jesus talking to , is it Himself in another mode?
- John 5:37 - And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
The above verse is referring to God the Father, it is the Son who became flesh and died on the Cross, not the Father. Common Logic, your making it so confusing. Furthermore answer my questions, is not you and me referring to one person or two? How is you and me both one person when Jesus himself referred to his"father" as you and Himself as "Me"
- Ok, so if God has no gender who is God the Son, was He a man as the Scriptures state or was He a Spirit? Are you trying to tell me that Jesus was not a man? And if He is then is He God? is not a man a gender?
kingzson wrote:Omega correct me if im wrong.
You actually expect me to believe you? I have already corrected you in my past responses and yet you still somehow manage to avoid my questions that disprove your theology of God!
kingzson wrote:Trinitarianism in its simplest form purports that there are 3 persons in the Godheadand that these 3 persons are coeternal.
Even though the doctrine of the trinity does not deny the deity of Christ,it divides deity into 3 distinct persons,essentially creating a polytheistic image of God.
In contrast,the Scriptures state that the Godhead(deity) dwelt in Jesus Christ and that God, who is eternal Spirit, was manifest in the flesh.(See Colossians 2:9; I Timothy 3:16.)
It was not a person who coexisted with the heavenly Father that was manifest in the flesh, but God(deity)Himself became flesh.
How is He polytheistic? If you have one egg that consists of the white, egg and the shell, does it not make it one egg? Do you what polytheism means? Unlike polytheism the God of the Bible is Triune, which means that He is neither tri-theistic or polytheistic in nature. The one nature of God is composed of three distinct eternal persons without beginning. What makes all three the one God is that they share the same nature. Try carefully reading the Bible from beginning to end and if studied carefully you will see that this is the most basic description of the God found within the Bible. God is one in substance, it is designating one Eternal God in Unity, yet existing in three eternal persons which the members are equal in nature, distinct in person and subordinate in duties. This is neither polytheism nor tri-theism.
kingzson wrote:Since God is an invisible Spirit, He could not die for the sins of humanity without becoming flesh.Thus, the Holy Spirit overshadowed the virgin Mary and caused her to conceive a child.
Jesus Christ was more than just a man...........He was that fleshly tabernacle which God emptied Himself from heaven and chose to indwell(the incarnation).
Although Mary carried Him in her womb as a fleshly son of David, He was by incarnation(indwelling of deity)the God of Abraham, Jehovah-Savior. He was the Word made flesh, the embodiment of all that is perfect, holy, and undefiled.
Lets first start out with the emptiness of God and who exactly was emptied, If God the Father and the Son are the same, then who existed in Heaven? Unlike your responses, I will back my response with Scripture and explain it in depth. Lets see:
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men Philippians 2:6,7
The word for emptying in Greek in
Kenosis, now it clearly states that is was the Son who emptied Himself, once again before I proceed further. If your trying to state that God had emptied Himself to become Christ the Son then we have a serious problem. To whom would Christ be praying to? To a God who all of a sudden ceases to be God? Who is it that wrought miracles? Eaxmple:
- John 5:19 - Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
- John 5:30 - I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
- John 8:28 - Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
If God the Father is the same as the Son then according to you God is helpless. More verses to prove otherwise:
John 8:29 - And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
So how often do you please your own self If I may ask? Now let us continue on the meaning of (kenosis) which basically means that He “made Himself of no reputation” which literally means that Christ the Son of God emptied Himself!. He was veiling His Glory and taking on Himself a true but sinless nature and voluntarily submitting to the will of the Father.
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kingzson wrote:God came into the world in the flesh through the incarnation(indwelling of deity). In Jesus Christ He took on the nature of Abraham. (See Hebrews 2:16.)He did not come in the form of an angel or in the likeness of any other heavenly being, but he came in human form. The eternal God became flesh and dwelt among us.
The eternal Spirit that spoke the world into existence manifested Himself in an earthly body of flesh. He came in flesh that He might reconcile mankind unto himself by Christ's atoning death on the cross.(See II Corinthians 5:19.)
When Philip asked Jesus to show them the Father, Jesus answered, "Have i been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me,Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father." ( See John 14:9-10).
Jesus Was the Visible Image of the Invisible God.
Nearly All you have stated above in no ways disproves the Triune nature of God, what is missing hear is the lack of understanding on your part of your own words for some reason???
When Jesus said if you have seen Him then you have seen His Father, do you know what that means? This is stating that there is no attributes of deity that the son does not possess, whatever is True of the Father is also True of the Son, they are of one essence. Furthermore If I may explain to you how you misunderstand the word(Seen) Example:
Jn 6:46 "Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father."
Now please explain to me in this verse if Jesus the Son did not exist before His incarnation but switched roles from Father to Son, then how is it possible that Jesus saw God the Father before coming down to the earth if He had no previous existence?
kingzson wrote:God is an invisible Spirit who has manifested Himself in various forms at various times in history. He has appeared as:
1) The angel of the Lord
2)A burning bush
3)A pillar of cloud
4)A pillar of fire
5)A shining light
6)Smoke that filled the Tabernacle of the Lord.
All of these temporary manifestations of God came short of revealing the exact visible image of His essence and glory. This wasreserved for those who should behold the Son(life) of God, the pattern by which God created mankind.
All the primary examples which you have listed are called theophanies which is the essence of God manifesting itself in forms, this is distinct from Christophany which is the Son of God incarnate who appeared as the angel of the LORD or the preincarnate Christ. Your list does not dsiprove the Triune Nature of God at all, You seem to be confused! Your responses are not disproving anything but is only strengthening my point.
kingzson wrote:ps: omega even though the words rapture or secondcoming are not mentioned in the bible by name........yet unlike the trinity they are alluded to often............the bible speaks of a falling away which means to be drawn out or plucked out which is giving refrence to a rapture because it also says that man of sin cannot be revealed -the anti-christ........as long as the church is here he can not appear so we must be plucked out or raptured out if you will.......................and on the 2nd point (the second coming) Christ alludes many times about His return(the second coming).
What does this have to do with the Word Trinity? Are you still trying to tell me that with all the common sense and logic and spiritual understanding that has been given to you by Scriptures that you cannot
see the Triune Nature of God?
You told me to correct you if your wrong and I did, the question is are you willing to accept correction my
humble friend?
1 John 5:10 - He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that (God gave of his Son.)
God Bless!