Joseph wrote:fdjohan wrote:First, remember that I gave Apple Pie a big chance to prove about what he said. For example, " earliest fragmented COPIES of the Koran only surfaced 100 years after his supposed life and times". Do you find something wrong with that? This thread is provided to talk more focus about it.
He is applying the widely held judgment of scholars, both Muslim and secular scholar, that not a single extant manuscript of Quran is dated earlier than 150 years after Mohammed's death. If you do not accept the verdict of scholars, this would not make it a problem for Apple Pie's case. It has been noted here your belief the Samarqand codex was Uthmans personal Quran is traditional, not reality. If you want to make the case the time period between the developed Quran and Mohammed was too short for borrowing to have occurred then submit more evidence than tradition.
You challenge me to talk about that. ok. Now tell me your rule of discussion.
Second. IF you can prove your claim by the HISTORICAL EVIDENCES, it will come more strong and solid. You can't come by claiming this and that but when we ask more you'll say "WHO CARES!!".
What is this historical evidence you keep taking about? If you have it, use it in your argument to disprove borrowing.
why is it so difficult to understand?
1. The evidences of the Prophet(saw) read NT.
2. He doesn't believe the Prophet wrote it. OK. Then he has to tell who was the misterious man that put the NT to Al-Qur'an. We need evidences.
3. The proves of the DICTATION process. How it happenned.
WE Muslims demand that explanation and we have right to ask.
The teaching of CHRISTIANITY coming from historical process. Your Bible in your hannd formed through the historical process. That's the fact. Then how come you make too much complain when we ask your arguments in the eye of historical facts? Don't you think Al-Qur'an formed without historical process?
Christians know the Bible has a history, we do not make the claim it fell out of the sky.
Then why do you make so much complain if we want explanation from the historical side?
Christians complain when Muslims what to impose their criterion on the Bible then they become upset (like you are) when the Quran is subjected to analysis. The development of Quran is exactly what Apple Pie speaking on.
Do you all see Apple Pie talking about development? development of what? What is the term exactly that you mean. This discussion is not finish yet. You cannot see clearly what the thing called EXACTLY josh.
Which are from argument in this thread from my side? There are 2 muslims site, but only telling story about how Uthman(ra) faced his death. This information you can find it everywhere. Which part that you accuse me as "playing on your side" in this thread?
You do not use any information except for what supports your agenda. And just because anywhere you can find information on UFO's doesn't mean they exist. Yes sir, what a prince you are and I just fell off the turnip truck.
And why don't you make the same complain to your Christian friends in this thread josh? this one nothing but just to show us how difficult to find a Christian with a fair judgement.
Who says similar words are the prove of everything? That claim that thing if we Muslims worship what your worship. Come to logical thinking. How come a man who learned and read your NT, picked the verses, and put it in Al-Qur'an, and turned out to reject the NT's teachings? Apple Pie doesn't event show who's that man was. Who was the man who put the NT text to Al-Qur'an? Can Apple Pie show us? Everything need proves. We are not kids.
No we are not children so quit making arguments(?) that would insult even the intelligence of a child.
So if you are mature, backed up your accusation. A kid will do anything without even feeling guilty. Am I wrong josh?
Your demands the perpetrator be indentified, his motives and character be explained before plagiarizing can be proven, is stonewalling, nothing more. However you need look no further than Islam's hero, Dr. Maurice Bucaille, for example of man without conviction.
Ok then, bring that Maurice Bucaille together with you josh.
Please look back. this thread is not talking about lexicon. And as the start, Lane was not talking about what this thread talking about.
Neither is Old English Lexicon talking about Shakespeare but nevertheless a tool for interpreting his works. You've made no point here.
Ups I made a big point. I can show people in this forum how DICTATED THEORY turned to a cartoon humour.
Which part is Muslims site in this thread?
I said, side, not site. And if you meant to say, side, then you have no credibility whatsoever
Ok I repeat "Which part is Muslims SIDE in this thread?"
Hmm... I see. By saying "WHO CARES!!" when we ask about it? Which part? by picking Greek texts and push as hard as he can to match them with verses in Al-Qur'an?
That is correct, who cares. You cannot bring any person from that era for trial and punishment. He or they are now nothing but dust. In your judgment Apple Pie is pushing the interpretation, but your judgment is not the only one which matter. The extent of your argument is imposing fictional conditions and mythical historical evidence on Apple Pie's case.
Well, so far he fails to explain the his claim in the eye of historical evidences.
Can you imagine how a "misterious man" picked 13 verses of the Revelations and squeezed them into ONE VERSE for Al-Qur'an? How come a smart guy like you hava a same idea about this.
It would helpful to keep track of things you have said and what Muslims say about Quran and Arabic language; In reply to Newseed, the sliminess of Quran is a hallmark, in reply to me, you claimed the entire Bible (Torah and Injil) is summarized in Quran. Muslims want people to believe Arabic is magically language to translate the word sense in another language would take an entire page or pages of words (much like you did on matter of Holiness). Not least of all, the wonderful brevity of Quran. Of course, all this magic suddenly disappears when they are effectively used against Quran.
You talk too long but nothing about thing thing called LOGIC.
Hei man, We got brain dude. don't push people to eat your illogical thinking and accusation.
Imagine !! a misterious man (Apple Pie failed to indicate) squeezed 13 verses of Revelation to just one short arabic word.
That's just not logic.
Well, I gave my counter arguments already. I'm waiting responses.
I believe that you really believe counter argument was made.