BISMILLAHIRRAHMAANIRRAHIIM
Hi KAI. How is you new home.
Gosh I've been off from internet about 3 days.
Where are we now?
I read your reply. Gosh..why are Christians so impatient in debate forum.
Let us take a fresh air a bit and let the discussion flows orderly.
I call you all to come in peace with your Jesus heart who teach you to love your enemies. All I can see in this JCF is full of hate to your enemies and what belongs to them.
This one is attached to your signature
Surah 29:46 And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."
ALLAH the Almighty command us to use better way to discuss things to non-Muslims. AGAIN, EVEN in dispute non-Muslims WE have to use better way. Then HOW in the world we gonna do HARM or EVIL deeds to them? This is a COMMAND for our ALLAH. You know what will happen if you against the command of ALLAH.
Anyway, KAI, didn't I tell you the I will come later to response the verses you refer to us? Be patient.
Kai replies:
But which dark side of Christianity; because when you refer to Christianity you need to look at original Christianity, which is portrayed by Christian Scripture, not by any later distortion.
I record this word. We'll talk about it later inshaALLAH.
Fdjohan wrote:
Please remember, in this discussion, WE want BALLANCE and FAIR rules.
We have right to use our own references and so are you.
We have right to ask you the SOURCES.
Kai replies:
By all means
Good.
Fdjohan wrote:
From a Muslims perspective, I can see clearly what your problem is.
1. You have no knowledge (or don't care?) about the background (history) of the verses of AL-Qur'an . I keep telling this forum not to ignore the history of the verses. I don't care you believe the term of REVELATION or not, but every verses have their own history. This thing you can't ignore.
2. You have no knowledge (or don't care?) about the history of Prophet Muhammad(saw) him-self.
3. You have no knowledge what ISlam is and even al-Qur'an it self.
Kai replies:
This is overstating your presumptions; how do you know that I have no knowledge, or do not care about the rules? What I presented were Koranic passages and Hadiths to back them up. But lets get back to it.
Are you shore that every verse has a history from which you can base your conclusions?
I'll let you know about it along with this discussion inshaALLAH.
Fdjohan wrote:
You make your argument by looking twice at what your Bible teach you. But you attack AL-Qur'an by accusing and exposing the verses that you have no knowledge about them.
Kai replies:
Well it is not as simple as that; the New Testament does not teach me to engage in warfare,
This is why I tell you that you haven't learned about the history of AL-Qur'an or even the history of the life of the Prophet him-self.
Please spend your time a bit to learn about the history of Al-Qur'an here
http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_libra ... _al_quran/
Al-Qur'an has it's own history that can't be ignored. The verses existed PIECE BY PIECE or STAGES along the life of the Prophet (saw). And The Prophet(saw) had to face a lot of wars in his time to face Meccan pagans, Jews etc.
So you have to understand this one. AL-Qur'an and the Bible formed with too much different way. There are no story about Jesus faced the war. But Muhammad (saw) faced wars.
There are verses encourage Muslims to be brave facing the enemies. And this one is related to the verses you rever to me.
to invade or enslave people; that is a fairly easy conclusion to derive at.
Yet the Koran does include these elements. For example you are told to fight those who follow not Islam, you are told that the Jews are the worse of all creatures; you are permitted to have sex with slave girls and women captives.
We'll talk about this along the discussion inshaALLAH.
None of these are included in the teachings of the New Testament; neither in the Old Testament (except unless you read the distortions of Osama Abdallah).
Remember how many Christians distort the meaning of verses in Al-Qur'an also.
Fdjohan wrote:
OK For the start, I want us to talk and focusing to what we call as the TEACHING it self since you keep blaming the teaching as the fire starter of such an EVIL ACTS. Hope we will strict our self about this. to make this discussion more order. Please reply you comment to the things I posted.
Kai replies:
Cool
Way cool
Fdjohan wrote:
All traslation by Yusuf Ali
Quote:
6:151. Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.
Prohibited to TAKE any life without any justice and law.
Kai replies:
That is fine! Notice, that I never stated that Islam does not possess any positive values.
Better not take it for granted my friend. Verses like this NOT just valuable but THE TEACHING and COMMAND. So if you wanna be fair, you have to say verses like these are the basic rules to do PEACEFUL acts.
Every religion possess values, often the same values.
Sura 6: 151 in its context does not refer to Jihad or Islam in war, but the Muslim in his general daily day;
probably among Muslims; hence this verse despite its goodness does not exclude the elements of evil which I posted earlier. [/quote]
You have to understand the character of AL-Qur'an. Verses support verses, verses explain verses.
You your-self put the rule of discussion on your signature.
Surah 29:46 And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."
We are commanded by ALLAH to choose the better way to discuss things with non_Muslims. Don't you think this verse is a basic teaching how to deal with you people? and if you are stubborn, we shall not do any harm to you but just say :
"We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."
Do we have to do evil things to you? no.
Even in the Nazi regime, murder was banned, even stealing and rape; it did however not exclude the means to invade, suppress and commit genocide.
Wrong sample KAI. We are talking about What HOLY BOOK teaches us. Isn't that what your thread about? Nazi nothing to do with holy book.
Let us forget about things about genocide for now. This discussion is not over yet. There are so much questions will come to you and you are responsible to answer it. Bring your mind and focus to the teaching mainly (as we discuss now) in Al-Qur'an. OK ma friend?
Hence Sura 6: 151 proposes excellent virtue but does not exclude evil.
Will come to it InshaALLAH.
Fdjohan wrote:
Quote:
[5]. On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
Kai replies:
As with the previous verse, the verse simply states the moral of any society, even Nazi Germany, even the ancient Assyrian culture. Yet this moral did not exclude the ideology which included invasion, genocide and submission.
Let's forget about genocide for now.
There is no mention in that verses the we have to do such peaceful act for Muslims only. That verse is a COMMAND NOT TO KILL from ALLAH to Muslims. Read carefuly.
if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people
ALLAH reminds us, if you kill a person without any reason ,it would be as if he slew the whole people. There is no sound of "Muslims only" here.
and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people
Is there command for Muslims only? no. This is a teaching to do more SAVE human life than killing without any reason.
If youare fair, you will say those are above the basic teaching of Muslims to do peaceful acts.
Fdjohan wrote:
The religion of Islam condemns the killing or even the persecution of people merely because they embrace a different religion. The Quran mandates the absolute freedom of religion in a society. It does not allow Muslims to fight except for self defense and to enforce peace. It does not allow restrictions on those who disagree on religious matters. It urges the Muslims to treat such people kindly and equitably.
Kai replies:
I fail to see how you arrive to that conclusion; clear mandate is given to fight and subjugate the unbelievers:
2:193 Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God’s religion reigns supreme.
Now we are coming to this discussion. You need to learn about the history of the verse it self. That verse existed (if you don't like the term REVEALED) CONCERNING WAR in time of BADR WAR. Nothing about killing innocent Non-Muslims.
Let's talk about the history. I will show you all the reference, so we can see it together.
http://www.muslimaccess.com/sunnah/seerah/24.htm
After this event, Quraish began to realize the real danger that Madinah could present with. They came to know that Madinah had always been on the alert, watching closely their commercial caravans. It was then common knowledge to them that the Muslims in their new abode could span and extend their military activities over an area of 300 miles. and bring it under full control. However, the new situation borne in mind, the Makkans could not be deterred and were too obstinate to come to terms with the new rising power of Islam. They were determined to bring their fall by their own hands and with this recklessness they precipitated the great battle of Badr.
The Muslims, on the other hand, and at the behest of their Lord,
were ordered to go to war in Sha‘ban 2 A.H:
“And fight, in the way of Allâh those who fight you; but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allâh likes not the transgressors. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah (polytheism or calamity) is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-Al-Harâm (the Sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. But if they cease, then Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of ) worship is for Allâh (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimûn (polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)” [2:190-193
So you better read those BOLD letters carefully ma friend.
surah 2:190,192,193 all in a tie and much related. You can't make them separate unless the meaning will be distorted.
Allâh likes not the transgressors
unless they (first) fight you there
Again. DO NOT FIGHT
UNLESS they fight you.
if they attack you
ATTACK only IF THEY ATTACK YOU.
That verse is not legalize killing non Muslims, but URGES Muslims to be brave to FIGHT BACK they are ATTACKED. so this is merely DEFENCE.
Again these verses existed regarding BADR WAR.
Those verses are three of the BASIC RULES OF WAR. and these verses
9:123 O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you
That verse existed in time of TABUK war.
Reff:
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/quran/ ... /mau9.html
The third discourse (vv. 73-129) was revealed on his return from the Campaign of Tabuk. There are some pieces in this discourse that were sent down on different occasions during the same period and were afterwards consolidated by the Holy Prophet into the Surah in accordance with inspiration from Allah. But this caused no interruption in its continuity because they dealt with the same subject and formed part of the same series of events. This discourse warns the hypocrites of their evil deeds and rebukes those Believers who had stayed behind in the Campaign of Tabuk. Then after taking them to task, Allah pardons those true Believers who had not taken part in the Jihad in the Way of Allah for one reason or the other.
Again that verse existed in time of WAR. And about the TABUK war, this is the explanation:
The Campaign to Tabuk was the result of conflict with the Roman Empire, that had started even before the conquest of Makkah. One of the missions sent after the Treaty of Hudaibiyah to different parts of Arabia visited the clans which lived in the northern areas adjacent to Syria. The majority of these people were Christians, who were under the influence of the Roman Empire. Contrary to all the principles of the commonly accepted international law, they killed fifteen members of the delegation near a place known as Zat-u-Talah (or Zat-i-Itlah). Only Ka'ab bin Umair Ghifari, the head of the delegation, succeeded in escaping and reporting the sad incident. Besides this, Shurahbll bin Amr, the Christian governor of Busra, who was directly under the Roman Caesar, had also put to death Haritli bin Umair, the ambassador of the Holy Prophet, who had been sent to him on a similar minion.
Tabuk CAMPAIGN happened after Muslims delegation were killed by Christians from Roman Empire. Read the history on that web above.
That verse is NOT a teaching to kill Non Muslims but merely DEFENCE.
48:29 Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are severe (or ruthless, vehement) against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves.
The word that translated as "severe (or ruthless, vehement)" derived from the word
Ashiddå’ is plural of
shadid, which means
firm,
strong, powerful, as well as brave Can be translated as
firm of heart.
Shiddat, the root word, also signifies
firmness of heart.
Nothing about harmness. Back to the Prophet's history of life. Too much pressure to him and Muslims. Without "ASHIDDA", Islam will no be exist until now.
The Muslims stood firm against the disbelievers but they will never fierce or hard in their treatment towards them. The rules had been made by ALLAH.
9:29 Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
We can simply let the Hadith’s interpret the Koranic passages:
I delay the hadiths later KAI, to bring more focus to the teaching of Al-Qur'an.
So far I refute your claims by the history of the verses themselves. Nothing of the intention of the verses to do any harm to the Non Believers.
Fdjohan wrote:
Quote:
[17]. Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive): but let him nor exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law).
No way to take any life without a cause.
Kai replies:
Again is this within the everyday of the Muslim in his conduct among non-Muslims or within the context of the passages we looked at earlier.
Notice that the Koran teaches Muslims to be merciful among themselves but harsh toward the non-believers:
48:29 Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are severe (or ruthless, vehement) against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves.
Explanation above.
47:35 So be not weak and ask not for peace (from the enemies of Islam), while you are having the upper hand. Allah is with you, and will never decrease the reward of your good deeds.
What about it?
Fdjohan wrote:
So There are teaching about peaceful act toward people no matter what religion they are.
Kai replies:
Every religion and ideology has its room for peace
Those are the BASIC TEACHING of Muslims to do PEACEFUL ACTS.
Fdjohan wrote:
I will talk about the verses you refer to us after this inshaALLAH.
Let us talk peaceful way since now.
Again now our first focus, talking about the teaching it self. So we better strict our discussion to this part first. Ok my friend?
Kai replies:
Well I have replied to your reply; I still cannot come to turns with the claim that Islam is a religion of peace!
Bring us more verses you claimed as the EVIL TEACHING toward Non-believers.
Much like every other ideology and religion it contains elements of peace, yet that does not render Islam as a peaceful religion.
We'll come to the conclution after we finish this discussion. But argue me with good references.
This time let us focus to what Al-Qur'an teach Muslims.
Salaam