Muslim & Christian Discussion ForumPlease try and convince me otherwise. :: replyreply This is just like saying, 40 years ago it was ok for me to kill, rape, and force people out from their homes, but I am peaceful now, and that makes me innocent of all the things I did. God's actions are God's actions, no matter how you look at it. I am trying to help you understand that the violence commanded by God in your Bible is some of the most extreme and violent terror this world has ever seen. Only Adolph Hitler and the Pope who ran the Crusades could compare to the bloodshed and rape. I believe that the Prophet of Islam (sa) was justified in all of his actions, as commanded to him by God in the Quran, in order to preserve and ENFORCE the message of God, and even then, the Prophet of Islam FORBADE the killing of women and children. The Prophet of Islam FORBADE the killing of unarmed soldiers. The Prophet of Islam FORBADE the killing of the elderly and FORBADE the destruction of homes. The pagans came by the thousands to kill the Prophet of Islam (sa), and he fought agaisnt those who fought against him. The wars in self-defense which took place in Mecca were absolutly neccessary. Neither does the Quran or Hadith call war HOLY. The Arabic phrase for Holy War would be zakiya-ul-harb, which occurs no where in Islamic scripture. Again, Mohammed NEVER called any war holy. Would you agree that the violence commanded in the Tanach is far, far, worse than the Quran? You would have to admit this, because its quite evident. Maybe your the one who should stop picking verses out from their context. The Quran does not force anybody to do anything: La iqraha fideen - There is no compulsion in religion (or choosing a way of life - deen) - (2:256) Islam strives for justice before it strives for peace. Without justice there can be no peace. Now if you read the context of the verses, you will notice that the Quran says, fight against those who fight against you, why? To eliminate persecution! Who are you fighting? Those who fight against you, and drive you out from your homes, and help others with driving you out from your homes, and those who persecute you! Furthermore, God FORBADE us from NOT respecting those who do not fight against us, and COMMANDED, that we be kind to them and deal equitably with them ( 60 : 8 ). Finally God told us that we can not even transgress limits against those whom we are fighting!!! The Gospel was a time-specific tribe specific Message, therefore, it will do no benefit for me, other than vasten my knowledge and appreciation for what God and His Messengers did, and the sacrifices they made. And yes, I am not interested in the Gospel According XYZ, especially, when only four canonized witnesses are taken out from the MANY others (Luke 1:1-3) that were discarded. What I am interesting in, for the sake of my knowledge and appreciation is what Jesus said, taught, and wrote, but since Jesus did not write a book, we have to assume that EVERYTHING Jesus ever taught is remembered 70 years later (the Gospel According to XYZ were written 70 years after Christ and canonized 170 years after Christ), in complete accuracy by the authors of the canonized Gospels According To XYZ. So I guess Rome's study of scriptures, their correction of them, and reproofing of them, and their canonzing of them is infallible and completely accurate, and it was impossible for such men to make mistakes? And yet you reject the Gospel According to St. Thomas (aka the Gospel of Thomas), and you call those that do accept it, the Gnostics, as heretics and outside of Christianity. Influence from society and culture exists in any religion. Christians have it from the Romans, Greeks, Jews and Egyptians. The Muslims have influence from the Arabs, Persians, and Jews. This does not mean plagerism existed because Prophet Mohammed specifically taught of the one true God, and in order to help the Persians, Arabs and Jews understand God's message, he (sa) often uttered something to them that they could relate to. Simple as that. Actually Paul was not Jewish, as he was not from the tribe of Judah. He, however, was an Israelite. There is definite influence from those cultures into Christianity, especially Roman Catholicism. For cryung out loud, the NT was written in Greek. Absolutly wrong. Prophet Mohammed (sa) taught an inbetween way, because turning the other cheek would not be feasable, especially when there would be thousands out for vengence and murder against the Muslims, not just in the lifetime of the Prophet, but in the many years to come. Prophet Mohammed (sa) taught peace and tranquility at all cause, that is, as long as there is no persecution and injustice. However, since persecution and injustice is worse than taking a life, one must stand up for ones rights and fight against those who fight against you, ie. in self-defense. There is no eye-for-an-eye concept in Islam, and there is no turn the other cheek concept in Islam. Its an inbetween, requiring the Muslims to have peace and patience, but we must be a strong people who will not back down from those who spread injustice and persecution. Do you even know what Jehad is? I do Jehad everyday against myself. Muslims do Jehad everyday against themselves. Jehad literally means struggle, and I stuggle against my desires and my carnal state of mind every day. The Prophet of Islam is known to have said, "The greatest Jehad is a Jehad agaisnt oneself" (Bukhari) My point was that Pauline-Christianity contradicts everything in God's Message, especially the first commandment. Jesus fulfilled the scriptures, the NT of the Bible did not fulfill anything ..... I believe in an entirely different God than Christianity, yes. Christianity worships the flesh of Jesus. I worship the spirit of God. Maybe you should read Orthodox's post about Christianity worshiping the flesh of Jesus instead of God .... The Quran never says Mary is a part of the Trinity. However, if you have read the Quran in its context, you will notice that "shirk" (associating partners with God) has a huge context. The Quran asks for example, "Have you seen the one who has taken his desires as his Lord beside God?" .... The Quran says that people take their desires, wealth, lusts, etc. as gods beside Allah, as they are seeking pleasure, and are putting faith in things outside of the Lord God, worshiping money, women, and this life, as if it were a diety. Another type of shirk (associating partners with God) is intercession - praying to, and seeking assistance from the dead, saints, prophets, or any type of man, angel, creation of God ..... Mary is the greatest intercessor in Roman Catholcism .... therefore in Islamic terms, the Catholics have taken Mary as a God beside Allah, as they pray to, glorify (Hail Mary), and seek intercession from, Mary (as). Jesus actually is known to have warned again false apostles .... nonetheless, Paul came years after Jesus ascended to heaven, and was a man who faught against Christians and had an agenda against them as well .... Actually Peter rebuked Paul for preaching to the gentiles, because Peter knew Jesus was against it ..... I'll eventually open up a new thread in this forum called "the pagan roots of the trinity" .... we can discuss it there .... Indeed, I offered you a challenge to produce one chapter like the Quran, which is infallible in its linguistics, lexicon, and poetic rhetoric, and when scruitinized by a English professor or Poetry Professor, they will say that it is perfect in its eloquency. I would prefer classic Elisbethian English, like in the day of Shakespear etc, since it is the most eloquent form of English and was the pincile of eloquency of the English language, but any attempt would suffice ..... No, actually I'll take it to a couple of professors who will scruitinize it, and I'll let them nag ..... My dear Loki, i've read the Gospel made in Quran form, and the Arabic lexicon and rhetoric used in those writings is so pathetic, that modern day Arabs have a laugh when reading it, let alone the 7th century poets who became overwhelmed by the Quran. Writing a book like it, does not mean, write any old book with a message about God .... the miracle of the Quran is actually its infallible lexicon, and poetic rhetoric, which when scruitinized, can not be improved upon ..... For example. When Shakespear made the statement "To be or Not to be, that is the Question" ... poets at the time would agree that this is an infallible statement which could not be stated in any superior form. However, Shakespear has other poetry, which poets can and did scruitinzie, and Shakespear's work had to be improved upon. Infact Shakespear is known to have spent hours and days improving upon his work. Yet, it took a simple revelation from God, in one single instance, that the poets of Arabia were amazed - mind-boggled even .... You have to understand the science of eloquent poetry and language ..... You also have to understand, that the form of entertainment 1426 years ago and beyond, was in fact poetry, novels based on poetry, and drama based on poetry. Everyone's read the plays of Shakespear and the likes thereof ... similarly, in Arabia, their hobby, their entertainment, their lives, were surrounded and entirely engulfed by poetry. Abu Sufiyan, the leader of Mecca, was entertained, not by television and modern day movies, but by forms of poetry. So were the kings of Rome, Greece, and China, but maybe to a lesser extent. So, when the illiterate Mohammed came with verse after verse, chapter after chapter, this, in there eyes was an overwheling miracle. Yes, an interesting number indeed. The pathentic, terrible, horrible, and poor attempt of an english translation, may seem as though, but the actual Arabic lexicon is quite extrodinary. Even though you can not fathom the eloquency as the Arabs did 1426 years ago, listen to the recitation of the Quran, and just listen, as I do, to the Arabic rythems in the words, and grasp for a moment, that each word is oriented towards an extremely deep message. Qulhu walahu ahad. Allahus samad. Lam ya lid, wa lam yu lad. Wa lam ya qulahu kufuwan ahad. Say, He is THE GOD, the only God, who is Independent and Besought by all. He begets not, nor, is He begotten, and there is nothing that is in likeness to Him. (112, Sura Al Ikhlaas) Actually, it is believed that Abraham's covenenat is everlasting, and Prophets would come only from his descendants, namely from the children of Israel, however when the kingdom of God was taken away from them and given to another nation, the door could only remain open through Ishmael, the blessed son of Abraham who was given a blessed nation. Also, the fact of the matter is that Mohammed succeeded and survived in miraculous ways, while Manes died miserably in jail. Any success Manes had disappeared, whereas Mohammed's success flourishes to this day, throughout the world. He came 575 years after Christ. 300+ years after Christianity (the man-established religion). Furthermore, that makes no sense, if anything Joseph Smith tried to jump on Mohammed's banwagon, since Joseph Smith came to America 1300 years after Mohammed. ps. Christianity is in itself, a fabricated tale ..... Joseph Smith, in the early 1900's had all the facilities and education, and a modern society, to write his fairy tale. Mohammed lived in an unknown to the world desert, called Mecca, 1426 years ago, and could not read and write Arabic, let alone Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. There is absolutly no evidence that Mohammed was poisoned. This is a lie created by the enemies of Islam, and the Shia, a heretic sect who worships the 4th Caliph. The Prophet is known to have given a farwell sermon, telling the masses, that God has informed him of his departure, ie. sad demise from the world. He have an entire sermon, in this regard. The Quran is not just a book, it is a linguistic and poetic miracle, uttered by an illiterate man, in a unknown to the world desert, 1426 years ago. Mohammed did not promise them anything, except for paradise to those who live by taqwah (righteousness), abandon the things which are forbidden (ie. adultry, fornication, alcohol, theft etc.), seek refuge from satan, who is your open enemy, and worship the one true God, the God of their ancestors, Abraham and Ishmael. So did Jesus ..... Mohammed had no experience in any war or military. He was a peasant who lived with his Uncle. Plus, he did not bring the wars, the wars came to him ..... God never saved Hitler. Plus Hitler never claimed divine authority, so he has nothing to do with God. Lying in God's name, and speaking of false gods, will lead to death : duet. 18:20 ....... Moses, Jesus, Joseph, David and Mohammed survived deaths at their enemies hands. I bet there arent even 5 million practicing Christians ... and if you take away th 80 million Roman Catholics, you got nothing even close to Islam. Muslims, excluding the heretic sects like the Shia, have way more practicing Muslims than Christians will ever have .... Russel never claimed divine authority. He never claimed to be God's Messenger or Prophet. So no he does not count. But take a look at Baha'ullah, Joseph Smith, Dr. John Alexander Dowie, Manes, who all claimed divine authority and who all died miserably in jail .... Prophet Mohammed did make a few prophecies, but since Islam was the perfection and completion of God's message to mankind, there was to be no prophecy, only the coming of the hour has its wait. Actually, Jews are only one of 12 Israelite tribes. Israel was promised God's blessings until God became angry with them and took away the kingdom of God gave it to another nation. Israel was promised the Messiah, and the Messiah was/is for Israel alone. Manes met his fate, and it was ordained by God to see a false prophet die miserably. Wrong, you are, this is straight from Islamic History, that while in Mecca, when he first started to spread his message, the dignitaries of Arabia came and tried to bribe him with anything possible, of which he refused for the sake of God and God's Message.
For the sake of his people, he did return to Mecca, but never did he give in to stop spreading the message, and never did he back down from the Meccans who desired to kill him, and never did he give in the bribes of wealth and luxory. The above quote proves nothing .... So did Moses ..... I wonder about Jesus, since the Jesus we know is a canonized one .... the Gospel of Thomas actually shows him as a frustrated angry hostile man ..... What are you talking about? Jesus was also mocked and humiliated heavily. And Mohammed certainly did return with a "seedy victory", he certainly walked the walk .... We, as Muslims make no distinction between any of the Prophets of God .... David had 99 concubines, Moses probably had more, and both David and Solomon reigned as King with all the luxory in the world .... Does this mean that David and Solomon were not Prophets of God? Certainly not .... Mohammed by the way was not a rich man at all, nor did he have palaces, this you make up frm yourself .... And those who did not pay or submit, did not die, prove it to me that they did ..... No, all I am saying is God is God, and if you don't complain about God's actions in the Bible, you can not complain about God's actions with Mohammed. Nowhere, I repeat nowhere in the Quran or Hadith, is war mentioned as holy .... |
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