Muslim & Christian Discussion ForumPlease try and convince me otherwise.Peace2God'sPeople wrote:
TS Joshua wrote: The modification in this sentence doesn't sound unclear to me, but let me clear it up. I meant that CHRISTIANITY'S SUCCESS in the east has been ABYSMAL.
If you read what I am saying in my post carefully, you will see that I don't think that Jesus is "at fault". However, I am presenting the argument that Christianity is not for everyone-which is exactly Submit to 1 God's point. There are some that prefer the structure and pragmatism of Islam instead of everyone taking Jesus' message of love and trying to figure out for themselves, AS INDIVIDUALS, how it should apply to their lives, which are, to a large degree, SOCIAL. The fact that so much of Christianity is in a rut does not reflect upon Jesus but does reflect upon the nature of Christianity, that is, it is designed for the few who are willing to give it everything. But if you were God and you created this whole world, would you leave it at that? It would almost seems that he has created entire races that are, by and large, totally uninterested in Jesus. We would almost have to assume that God's design in creating these races was flawed since they seem to have so little need for his Son, (himself?) Right, then only a very small fraction of all the Christians on the earth are either true Christians, or are, at the very least, getting a substantial benefit from it.
Agreed, yet it does provide some evidence that a person is trying hard to stay receptive to God's spirit and guidance.
They may deny him equality with God, and some Muslims have some odd beliefs about Jesus life that I am not sure are too accurate. But as far as outright denying him totally, they don't, and agree that he was a great prophet. TS Joshua quoted these as proof that Jesus is God in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. I don't clearly see where this makes him equal with God. Again, where did he say he was equal with God? To be greater than man does not necessarily equate to equality with God. Here is Matthew 5:9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God." Sounds like those of us who seek to bridge the peace among man are Sons of God, which is a pretty impressive title in itself. At the RIGHT hand of the MIGHTY ONE. That alone seems to prove my point and not yours. "Coming on the clouds of heaven" is popular Old Testament terminology for coming in judgment. This referred to what happened in AD 70. This still does not say he is equal with God. The fact that God has to give him this authority seems to prove MY point. So perhaps this means that he was GIVEN this power on earth. But he also wished to make a statement to the Pharisees here that her great love and desire to be forgiven of her many sins allowed her to receive forgiveness. For the most legalistic of Jews, the fact that someone was poor or sick, was seen as evidence in and of itself that a person's life was full of sin. Jesus came to adjust that notion and to let the Pharisees know that they were equally capable of and, indeed, guilty of sin even though they were of high standing and were rather well off. Either this is a statement establishing a Trinity among God, Jesus and the Angels or it is a simple statement discussing how the messengers of God (the Romans) would bring destruction on those Jews who rejected Jesus or refused to stand up for him. Remember, this is the same Jesus who told the parable in Luke about how a certain King returned to his people and requested that those among them who had not wanted him to be king should be brought before him and killed. This DOES NOT sound like the peaceful Jesus I know and could indicate further plans Jesus has for those who refused him. If what happened in AD 70 was "of God" then it either validates violence against those who refuse God, or it shows that God, through certain forces (not Christians) is willing to punish those who will not do his will. He was rejected by the that generation of "The Jews" and they were punished in AD 70. Great, how does that make him equal with God. You see, without using the Gospel of John you can't refer to all the statements about how Jesus is God for nowhere else in the Gospels is Jesus said to be the Word of God, the creator of the universe, the equal of God, or the one sent from heaven and soon to return. Nowhere else does Jesus claim that to see him is to see the Father, that to hear him is to hear the Father, and that to reject him is to reject the Father.
First, I can use most of those verses that you just quoted me to prove my point. He constantly speaks of having power bestowed upon him and being at the right hand of the Father which shows a clear subordination. Here is a generalization from a scholarly work: "In the Synoptic Gosples, even though Jesus is portrayed somewhat as a Hellenistic divine man, like Apollonius of Tyana, for example, there was no sense there that he had existed in eternity past, that he was the creator of the universe, or that he was equal to the one true God. Scholars have long recognized that the notion (italics mine) of Jesus' divinity may have developed over a period of time; as Christians began to reflect more and more on who Jesus was, they began to ascribe greater and greater honors to him." (The New Testament, A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings, 2nd edition, Bart D. Ehrman, p.155)[/i][/quote] Indeed, honors that he did not clearly bestow upon himself (in the Synoptics). TS Joshua responded to the Islamic form of prayer which I indicated was a fulfillment that God wished to have all of mankind bowing down to him . 2 things. First, It must, therefor, be outside of God's will for any public prayer to occur at church. Therefor, by the standard you have quoted, most churches need to immediately cease the various forms of prayer conducted during their services. Secondly, the Muslim form of prayer is done in unity. There is little "showboating" that can be done at the mosques. Mohammed's pragmatic approach here is far different from what you see in many Christian churches where there is an abundance of people "running down to the front" Sunday after Sunday or Christians wanting a position on the church choir, just for the sake of the position and the attention AND so that their beautiful voice can be heard. Well, I've answered all I can for now. Loki, I frankly have a hard time following what you say because it seems to have such an aggressive tone, and, as a follower of Christ's way of love, I have a hard time making it through your comments. I do consider myself to be a follower of Christ's way and not of Mohammed's way. To make one simple point before I go. Jesus' equality with God, as I have been explaining, was far from being the ESTABLISHED belief in the first few centuries after Christ. It was ONLY after the Roman emperors insisted on a unified definition of Christianity that the other viewpoints began to slowly fade from popular belief. You can't say that you can TOTALLY refute that. Peace to my Muslim cousins and Christian Brothers/Sisters, Peace to God's People Peace to God's People |
🌈Pride🌈 goeth before Destruction
When 🌈Pride🌈 cometh, then cometh Shame