Re: Leon
LuckyStrike wrote:Leon wrote:Yes, the point was just that;[...]
Well, when you said that "heathens will burn," I thought you were refering to spiritual damnation in hell. This is because such a usage of the word "burn" usually implies being set on fire by the fires of hell.
And neither of the Scriptural references cited (Leviticus 24:16 and Deuteronomy 17:12) prescribe burning by fire as the punishment for the crime listed.
Thus, you can understand the misunderstanding we have here.
Leon wrote:[...]that I quite often see people quote things that are quite out of context like that when trying to endorse a point they're making.
I am not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that you agree with what I said, or that I misinterpreted those verses?
Oh my, I was apparantly not putting my views clear enough. I apologize for the confusion and will try to straighten out where I stand - I will have to blame it on English being my second language.
I do agree with what you said, and don't think that you misinterpreted the verses. What I basically meant was that the Bible can very easily be interpreted "wrongfully", due to it's diversity, or should I perhaps rather say
differently? Many people read what they want to read, not what it says, and what it does actually say is not always crystal clear.
Lucky Strike wrote:
Leon wrote:The Bibles awesome diversity thus enables you to claim pretty much anything you want and find a reference to "endorse" it.
I disagree. Most Scriptural misquotes occur because of a selective focus on select words or phrases, with the rest of the passage and its context remaining ignored.
Yes, what I mean was not that it was
justified to claim anything and say that "the Bible endorses it!" with any quote taken out of context, but that some people feel that way.
Lucky Strike wrote:
No, just because God possesses foreknowledge of the future does not mean that God predestined the future.
This is the tricky part to me, since God is in the state of "divine timelessness" as you mentioned. How can God not have predestined the elapsation of existence if he, when creating the universe, was everywhere all at once? Since we live in a cause and effect world, that means that if existence can be traced back to a 'mother of causes', God creating existence, that cause is what resulted in everything else, and God should have known what was to happen, IMO.
Lucky Strike wrote:Now having said this, let us consider Romans 8:29-30.[/color]
Romans 8 [NIV]
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
*See also 1 Peter 1:2, Ephesians 1:4-5, Ephesians 1:11, etc.
Verse 29 says that God foreknew with the addition of predestination. In other words, within his foreknowledge God also predestined. Knowledge came before action. And God started by foreknowing those that would respond to his call.
However, one must note that verse 30 says that those God predestined he will also call. This means that not all men are called, but those who are predestined within God's foreknowledge are called.
In examining the contrast between verse 29 and 30, one must note that foreknowledge is the key. God starts with intellectual foreknowledge about certain individuals. And individuals are defined by their actions. Thus, within his foreknowledge, God is picking people based on their future actions. And it is logical to assume that God would pick people who would want to seek him and seek him.
Yes, well, I believe that those who are called are predestined for it, within God's knowledge. Being everywhere all at once, when creating the universe, God was also be looking upon those who were later to see the Light. Since he was responsible for the mother of all causes that started the seeminlgy endless chain of events that has led up to today and will lead on into the future, he would have known then and there that the exact way in which he preformed the intitial act, the mother cause, the future would be determined.
Lucky Strike wrote:Thus, within Scripture, one finds that God predestines events (Acts 4:27-28, Romans 8:30, etc.) but still allows free will choice (1 Chronicles 29:9, Psalm 54:6, Exodus 10:27, Exodus 35:5, Dueteronomy 1:26, Judges 5:9, 2 Samuel 6:10, etc.). Thus, free will choice and predestination work in harmony within Scripture.
Yes. I believe that God is both here, yesterday and tomorrow all at once, which means that the entire elapsation of existence has already happened and have yet to happen, from Gods perspective. This does not mean I do not believe in free will, for I do. From our mortal perspective, we choose, and the following events are reactions to
our reactions, while also reactions to Gods initial action. We have the ability to affect the world around us, and we have the ability to refrain from doing so. Do I make sense or am I just rambling to you?
Lucky Strike wrote:Does this help?
Hehe, yes, it helps since I find this discussion highly interesting!