ArchivedInterpreting the Holy Book. :: Re: LeonRe: Leon Well, when you said that "heathens will burn," I thought you were refering to spiritual damnation in hell. This is because such a usage of the word "burn" usually implies being set on fire by the fires of hell. And neither of the Scriptural references cited (Leviticus 24:16 and Deuteronomy 17:12) prescribe burning by fire as the punishment for the crime listed. Thus, you can understand the misunderstanding we have here. I am not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that you agree with what I said, or that I misinterpreted those verses? I disagree. Most Scriptural misquotes occur because of a selective focus on select words or phrases, with the rest of the passage and its context remaining ignored. No, just because God possesses foreknowledge of the future does not mean that God predestined the future. In an abstract sense, the future is already fixed in place. Certain unknown future events are going to happen, thus, in a certain sense, these unknown future events are inevitable. Does that mean that the unknown events in question were predestined to happen? No, because unknown future events are inevitably going to happen within the cause and effect reality we live in. Now let us apply this to God and his foreknowledge. We exist and function in a limited, linear state of being while God exists in a non-linear, unlimited state that is often called "divine timelessness." More specifically, God exists outside of the linear nature and limitations of physical reality, called "time," and observes everything from outside the "walls" of "time." Thus, to God, there is no "future," for he sees the "past," "present," and "future" or the complete linear line of physical events all at once. So what we label as "what will be" is actually "what is" to God, for he observes everything as we observe the present. Thus, God observes the inevitable progression of inevitable unknown future events for what they are really are. To us, making decisions is an unpredictable process because we cannot see beyond the "in the present" "chamber" of cause and effect. We only see the "present" or a certain part within this process. However, to God, every decision is already made because he sees all cause and effect without the "walls" of "time." Now having said this, let us consider Romans 8:29-30. Romans 8 [NIV] 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. *See also 1 Peter 1:2, Ephesians 1:4-5, Ephesians 1:11, etc. Verse 29 says that God foreknew with the addition of predestination. In other words, within his foreknowledge God also predestined. Knowledge came before action. And God started by foreknowing those that would respond to his call. However, one must note that verse 30 says that those God predestined he will also call. This means that not all men are called, but those who are predestined within God's foreknowledge are called. In examining the contrast between verse 29 and 30, one must note that foreknowledge is the key. God starts with intellectual foreknowledge about certain individuals. And individuals are defined by their actions. Thus, within his foreknowledge, God is picking people based on their future actions. And it is logical to assume that God would pick people who would want to seek him and seek him. At this point one might object by saying that even if God knows who will answer his call and reject it, he is still not giving people the chance to actually make the choice because their actions are already known. However, from the perspective of God's divine timelessness, his foreknowledge encompasses the inevitabilities of our choices given all the possibilities of the future and man's nature. In addition, one must observe that Romans 8:29-30 does not speak of predestining any choices or actions. Rather, it predestines events that surround future choices and are based on those choices, thereby making predestination concurrently operate beside free will. At this point one must differentiate between the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8-11) and God's call (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). The conviction of the Holy Spirit is universal, but God's call is selective. This is because only select people will accept the conviction of the Holy Spirit, thereby getting the predestined call from God. Thus, within Scripture, one finds that God predestines events (Acts 4:27-28, Romans 8:30, etc.) but still allows free will choice (1 Chronicles 29:9, Psalm 54:6, Exodus 10:27, Exodus 35:5, Dueteronomy 1:26, Judges 5:9, 2 Samuel 6:10, etc.). Thus, free will choice and predestination work in harmony within Scripture. - - - - - - - - - - Does this help? |
🌈Pride🌈 goeth before Destruction
When 🌈Pride🌈 cometh, then cometh Shame