ArchivedOnce saved always saved? :: Reply to LindaBee2Reply to LindaBee2 You are putting unwarranted assumption into the text. 1 John 5 [NIV] 1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. Notice that verse 4 links "overcomes" with "born of God." And this "birth of God" refers to being born again (ref. John 3:5) (verse 1). This is significant because verse 4 shows that being born again is the cause of overcoming in this instance. The word "born" (gennao, Strong's #1080 + #5772) is stated in the perfect passive, which means it was completely completed in the past. But, "overcomes" (nikao, Strong's #3528 + #5719) is stated in the present tense, which means it is ocurring in actual time. This clearly shows a past action as being the basis or cause of the current action. This means that the verse is dynamically saying: "everyone [that has been] born of God [is currently] overcom[ing] the world." Thus, the assumptions you are putting into 1 John 5:4 turn the meaning of the verse backwards. You try to make "overcomes" a prerequisite of "born of God," when in fact the latter is the cause of the former. Put another way, the latter demonstrates the reality of the former, as opposed to being a requirement for the former. So no, 1 John 5:1-5 does not mention Conditional Salvation. And where does Scripture equate apostasy to the loss of salvation? Hebrews 6 [NIV] 4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. The Greek word for "taste" in verses 4 and 5 is geuomai (Strong's #1089), which means "to taste," as in "to feel, make trial of, experience" [Strong's Lexicon], and "to taste; by implication, to eat; figuratively, to experience (good or ill):--eat, taste" [Strong's Greek Dictionary]. In verses 4 and 5, one must immediately note that the subject is tasting or making trial of the listed things from God. This points to the idea of experiencing without complete involvement, for tasting is an incomplete action of consuming. This is supported by the fact that we symbolically eat and drink Christ's body and blood (ref. John 6:51, John 6:53-57), not simply symbolically taste it, in getting salvation. Further, verse 4 mentions the sharing of the Spirit. This is significant because Christians do not share the Spirit between each other, but rather the Spirit dwells within every believer individually (1 Corinthians 3:16-17, 2 Corinthians 6:16, John 14:16). But how can one experience without complete involvement? Just like the unsaved spouse is sanctified by the saved spouse (ref. 1 Corinthians 7:14), so can someone who is unsaved experience certain spiritual elements of a Christian community. For instance, the unsaved can be involved in the work of the Holy Spirit, bringing salvation to others, knowing the Word of God, and so on. Hebrews 6:4 [NIV] if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance,[...] Hebrews 6:4 [NASB] and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance,[...] Hebrews 6:4 [KJV] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance[...][/color] The Greek word for "fall away" is Parapipto (Strong's # 3895), which means "to fall away (from the true faith): from worship of Jehovah" [Strong's Lexicon] and "to fall aside, i.e. (figuratively) to apostatize:--fall away" [Strong's Greek Dictionary]. The Greek word for "impossible" is Adunatos (Strong's # 102), which means "unable to be done, impossible" [Strong's Lexicon] and "unable, i.e. weak (literally or figuratively); passively, impossible:--could not do, impossible, impotent, not possible, weak" [Strong's Greek Dictionary]. The Greek word for "brought" [NIV] and "renew" [NASB and KJV] is Anakainizo (Strong's # 340), which means "to renew, renovate" [Strong's Lexicon] and "to restore:--renew" [Strong's Greek Dictionary]. And the Greek word for "repentance" is Metanoia (Strong's # 3341), which means "a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done" [Strong's Lexicon] and "compunction (for guilt, including reformation); by implication, reversal (of (another's) decision):--repentance" [Strong's Greek Dictionary]. In verse 6, Paul is saying that when such a person falls aside, falls away, or deviates, it is impossible to renew, restore, or renovate them to a change of mind a second time. In other words, when such a person deviates from their involvement in the faith, they will not choose to come back to the faith. Hebrews 6 [NIV] 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. In verses 7 and 8, Paul uses the illustration of land to make a comparison between people. Notice that the land that produces a crop is already receiving rain while the land that produces nothing is not mentioned as receiving rain. When related to people, this means that a believer is productive because they are receiving from God, while a false believer or non-believer produces nothing because they get nothing from God. So no, Hebrews 6:4-8 does not mention Conditional Salvation. Hebrews 10:26 [NIV] If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth,[...] Hebrews 10:26 [NASB] For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth,[...] Hebrews 10:26 [KJV] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,[...] You are putting unwarranted assumption into the text. Hebrews 10:26 is about receiving knowledge of the truth, not salvation. Specifically, this verse is referring to unchanged conduct while knowing the truth. Notice that the word "sin" (hamartano, Strong's #264 + #5723) is used in the present tense, while "received" (lambano, Strong's #2983 + #5629) is used in the second Aorist tense, which emphasizes a "punctiliar action" or "point in time, divorced from time." And this is being done "willfully" or by one's accord (Hekousios, Strong's #1596). This means that one is in the present process or habit of intentionally or willfully sinning after having received the knowledge of the truth at some point. However, the author clearly implies that acquiring this knowledge should have stopped this present process of sinning. This is significant, because the steps to salvation begin with being given knowledge. And if knowledge does not produce change, then one can immediately assume the lack of change within the person in question. Thus, when put in context, Hebrews 10:26 refers to the unsaved's lack of response to receiving knowledge about Christ's sacrifice, or the Gospel. So no, Hebrews 10:26-31 does not refer to Conditional Salvation. I think you are drawing a line that is not found in Scripture. Let me illustrate this by asking you a question: What is the difference between: (1) unintentionally abandoning the faith due to a genuine crisis of faith (backsliding) and (2) willfully renouncing your faith out of anger towards Christ because he did not do something for you (apostasy)? Both involve the abandonment of the faith, but for different reasons. Are you telling me that the comparative merits of one's actions play a part in this?
This encyclopedia quotation (page 1, 6th post from bottom) does not prove Conditional Salvation. Instead, all it does is provide the same two Scriptural references you have already listed to support the idea that one can lose their salvation. And I have already addressed them. That aside, that encyclopedia is making doctrinal statements instead of objectively examining both sides of the issue. Therefore, that quotation is nothing more than an argument of dull weight. However: I agree with this. Why cannot this be applicable to all Christians, both backslidden and apostate? |
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