ArchivedOnce saved always saved?4givn4evr wrote:HE predestined, HE foreknew, HE called, HE justified, HE glorified.
As in all things, HE is the center, not ME. HE saved ME, continues to save, me, justify me, conform me, and in humility and faith I believe HE does it all, not ME.
What I find interesting concerning OSAS debates is that OSAS advocates will always appeal to their personal experiences as to why they believe in OSAS. Also you have the order wrong; He foreknew and then He predestined. In Scripture predestination is always applied to believers not unbelievers.
The PCA split from the PCUSA in 1973 because the PCUSA had been teaching a social gospel for decades. My great grandfather was a PCUSA minister who denied the inerrancy of Scripture as a result of his seminary education. He attended the Union Theological Seminary in about 1907 and passed away when I was 16. The Presbyterian Church in America has a strong commitment to evangelism, missionary work at home and abroad, and to Christian education. From its inception, the church has determined its purpose to be “faithful to the Scriptures, true to the reformed faith, and obedient to the Great Commission.”
Organized at a constitutional assembly in December 1973, this church was first known as the National Presbyterian Church but changed its name in 1974 to Presbyterian Church in America (PCA). It separated from the Presbyterian Church in the United States (Southern) in opposition to the long-developing theological liberalism which denied the deity of Jesus Christ and the inerrancy and authority of Scripture. Additionally, the PCA held to the traditional position on the role of women in church offices.
In December 1973, delegates, representing some 260 congregations with a combined communicant membership of over 41,000 that had left the PCUS, gathered at Briarwood Presbyterian Church in Birmingham, Alabama, and organized the National Presbyterian Church, which later became the Presbyterian Church in America. http://www.pcanet.org/general/history.htm
You brought up the Holocaust; have you studied the life of Calvin? In 1536, a French Protestant, John Calvin, settled in Geneva after having been forced to flee his own Catholic country. Through his teachings and work Calvin managed to take Protestantism to new extremes: over-compensating for the worldly excesses of Catholicism, Calvin and his followers (Calvinists) forbid all forms of entertainment and regulated even the dress of ordinary people. In a fit of ecclesiastical zeal (which has only been equaled by later equally fanatic Muslim nations), dancing, card playing, gambling and other recreations were forbidden in Geneva; those caught breaking these rules were routinely put to death.
http://www.white-history.com/hwr43.htm
As to Romans 8:26-30 this happens to be one of my favorite sections of Romans 8. Romans 8:26-30
26 And in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. NAS
4givn4evr wrote:What then of free will? Either He created us with free will, and allows us to exercise our free will, and suffer the consequences, or He doesn't. But how imperfect is our true understanding of free will within this context: either God is Sovereign, or He isn't.
OSAS actually denies "free will" since OSAS teaches once saved we become robots and are unable to choose to live a righteous life as overcomers, which also denies: Matthew 24:4-14
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. 11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. 12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come. NAS
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. NAS
1 Timothy 4:1-5
4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
NAS
You cannot fall away from a faith you never had.
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