Liberate wrote:Hello H2O my dear friend seems you made a little mistake to reveal your scholarship in biblical greek, see the word for 'with' in greek is 'pros' and when used in the phrase "pros ton theos" it means "with regards to" or " with reference to" the accusative form of the subject case, " ie "pros ton theos" is being the direct object of the verb for "ho logos", the first phrase of "ho logos" is quite explicit that the Word is singular, masculine and nominative, the imperfect tense that starts of that sentence makes it quite clear that this is on going in other words eternal relationship.
pros <~~~~ Has more than one meaning depending on how it is used in a context
But your interpretation is respected, but however an interpretation does not reflect the reality of what that preposition actually means in that verse as far as I am concerned.
"pros ton theon" on it's own is an incomplete phrase if you knew koine greek you would know this, and would not be making an argument out of it, it's like saying "
with God" and leaving it at that without a verb, subject or object of the verb, the phrase is incomplete the subject and the object of the verb have to be seen in context. The author is very clear what he wants to convey, the fact that the indefinite article is included when referring to
"pros ton theon" means that this is God that the Word was with and was. Ahmed Deedat made the same argument in his article because he didn't know what "
ton theon" meant as an object of the verb which is precisely what you are doing.
Liberate wrote:H2O wrote:As for the geek word "Theos" being used in the context without the article "the" ie "ton" or "ho" its justification of its absents is that there was no reason for it grammatically but if this is true then why bring it back into the last phrase "..the same (?) was in the beginning with God (ton theon)"
Your greek scholarship is beginning to show; again because this is accusative (the object of the verb) the first mention of theos is the object and the second mention of theos is the subject of the verb, there is no definite article because the noun is known from the context, the writer is very clear on what he wants to convey, there is no ton or ho theo in the
final phrase of theo because it simply is not in the greek text either (have a read from your copy and paste yourself it's not in there what exactly are you arguing about?) wait a minute are you paraphrasing Ahmed Deedat's article??
Aineo wrote:H2O, if you really do know Greek then you know that according to Greek grammar "ho" is not required to show the last phrase of John 1:1 is correctly translated "and the word was God". Some scholars insist the last phrase would be better translated "and the word was divine". But that is simply a matter of word choice and means the same thing. The Word was with God in the beginning and the Word is God. That H2O is what the Greek plainly states.
It is obvious the last phrase I am speaking about is different fromt eh last phrase you all are talking about.
In the greek " en arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos houtos en en arche pros ton theon " is together as one sentence, please refer to your greek text. I am focused on the greek and you all are still playing with the English.
The last phrase in the greek text is "...houtos en en arche pros ton theon ". Thus is why Liberate I responed to you with the text and reference.
I made no primary arguement of "..kai theos en ho logos.." I said it justification was :
As for the geek word "Theos" being used in the context without the article "the" ie "ton" or "ho" its justification of its absents is that there was no reason for it grammatically ....
All you two, Liberate and Aineo, did is ellaborated over the same thing I mentioned about the word.
Based upon this I said in continuation "...but if this is true then why bring it back into the last phrase "..the same (?) was in the beginning with God (ton theon)" "
For the same Justification applied to "theos" with out the deffinite article it should have been applied the same to the last phrase in the context of the greek, not the Englsih, if the aurthor understood it as the one and same G-d ?
Liberate wrote:John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. (houtos en en arche pros ton theon) This is a completely different sentence and the noun has not been defined from the context hence the need for the definite article. You are basing your argument on a completely different sentence.
In English they are per how the translators seperated them by the numbering of the verses, but in the Greek they are one complete sentence in context together.
In the greek manuscripts they are no punctuation marks chapters or numbers, period, surely you already knew this!!!!