It seems to me, that we are all agreed on one thing... Jesus is something other than just ordinary human. Muslims think of Him as the greatest prophet aside from Muhammed and Christians think of Him as God.
Alpha, myself in other forums and others have explained that we are not talking here of three separate gods.. we ALL agree that we worship ONE God. We have tried to explain that the ONE God according to Christians, is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.. not three separate persons, but one God, expressed in three ways.
In other forums we've discussed that Jesus doesn't ever seem to publically demand worship, on the contrary, He constantly APPEARS to reject it. He seems to favour the title SON of MAN over SON of GOD, and herein lies the dilemma for most Muslims trying to understand our faith.
When we think of the term Son of Man, it does immediately relate to human beings, and the Old Testament definitely uses the term in that way in such verses as Ezekiel 2:1-3, Psalm 8:4 and Psalm 144:3), however, it also uses it in another way in Daniel's vision in Daniel 7:9-10 and in Daniel 7:13-14.
Can I invite everyone, to forget their feelings right at this moment and read these verses and ask God to show this vision to them as well...
As I looked, thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took His seat. His clothing was white as snow, and the hair of His head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire and it's wheels were all ablaze.
A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before Him.
Thousands, upon thousands attended Him, ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him and
The court was seated and the books were opened".
In my vision at night, I looked, and there before me was one LIKE a SON OF MAN coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; All peoples, nations and men of every language worshipped Him. his dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away and His kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
The title SON of MAN has a deeply significant meaning to the Jews, and evoked the majestic vision of God's appointed King. The fact that Jesus self-designated Himself with this title is extremely meaningful. he was claiming that he was this king, the universal king, whose mission is to judge mankind on the Day of Judgement. Here is what He said about it...
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and he will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats... Then the king will say to those on his right:. "Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world." Matthew 25:31-34, Matthew 19:28)
This same self-description is given in Mark 14:62 when He is on trial and in Mark 10:45, where he says that the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve. Muslims I know, believe this to be the true way of leadership, for Hadith Sayyidu l-qawmi khadimuhu... The servant of a people is their leader. (al-Futuhat al-makkiya, vol. 1, p244)
Now.. back to the subject of this topic. Omya, you challenged anyone to show you the God part of Jesus talking in these verses, for certainly it would seem strange to anyone that Jesus a man, should talk to Himself as God unless He was deluded.
Let's begin by not discussing this from a Christian perspective, but from a Muslim perspective first.
The Prophet's mission was to preach God's oneness to the Arabs who used to associate many gods with the one supreme God. In the face of the history of the time, Muhammad's strong renunciation of polytheism is obviously intended to uphold God's transendence and majesty, and to prevent any defication of his creatures, who would become a part of God themselves (Sura 43:15).
This and Surah 19:88-92 where Allah speaks and says "they say, the most Gracious has taken a son..." and the unforgivable sin that it is to declare that God could have a son, and be worshipped in the way that only the unique creator can be." and it's this background that I will now discuss how Christians can stand and declare "Jesus Christ IS the Son of God".. and yet not commit this sin
Sura 4:171 and Sura 5:73 have given the impression that
1. the texts deny the so called Christian doctrine of three gods... God, Mary and Jesus (compare this with Sura 5:116
2. Other Muslims, like Razi, understand the doctrine of the Triune God head as Alpha described it earlier, but deny it on rational grounds.
Now.. I think that all of you reading this forum, must agree with Razi.. as we have explained over and over again, that we denounce any doctrine that describes the Triune Godhead as God, Mary and Jesus. We have declared over and over again, that God is ONE God, but expressed in three personalities.. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Therefore, your rejection of our belief can only be coming from a rationalistic perspective.. How can ONE God, be three persons and yet remain ONE GOD?
However, herein lies the major problem.. since when do any of us, Muslim, Christian, or Jew, choose the rational over faith? Revelation for all of us, takes precedence over rational thinking. Even the Prophet had this revealed to Him in Sura 43:81-82
Say: "if the All-Merciful (God) had a Son, I would be the very first to worship (him). Glory be to the Lord of the heavens and of the earth, the Lord of the Throne, beyond all they attributes they ascribe
Muhammed was told he had to surrender to God's revelation, even if contradicted human expectations. ( I have some rather interesting discussions from Muslim papers on this verse, so please, if you are interested, we can discuss it furthur)
Both Christian and Muslim, know that God's revelation takes precedence over human rationality therefore, to reject the concept of a God who can be ONE God yet, expressed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Having said all that, I'm stopping the post here and will furthur explore it in the post to follow. Please comment on this one in the meantime.
Carol