Aieno Wrote:

Abram's fathers were in the grave, not in hell. Abram was buried at an old age. So what is your question concerning his vision?

"And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age". Genesis 15:15

God told Abraham that he would go to his fathers in peace , but Abraham was not buried with his fathers.

"And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran". Genesis 11:32

Abrahams father died in Haran, and Abraham went on his journey that God had planned for him.

Abraham was buried, not with his fathers, but instead in a cave given to him by the Hittites for the burial of Sarah. In the book of Genesis, it shows the dead as being gathered to their people. This implies not unconsciousness, but a journey to where the fathers and ancestors of the people had gone, a place of the dead which was not the graves that they were buried in

If you say that this is all an idiomatic expression, what is the meaning? To be gathered to one's people who simply don't exist? To me that would be nonsensical.

Aieno Wrote:

What did the witch of Endor conjure? If you take the time to read 1st Samuel 28 you will read that what the witch saw was "a divine person" who had the form of an old man wrapped in a robe, not the soul of the dead Samuel. It is ludicrous to believe that a witch can call up the dead. What Saul thought was the soul of Samuel was a demon.

According to I Samuel 28:3-25, Saul obviously believed that the "old man wrapped in a robe" was Samuel. The Bible states nothing to the contrary, and any other interpretation (including yours) must be forced on the passage. I see no reason to believe that it was a demon appearing like Samuel. Saul himself actually said it was Samuel. The bible gives no hint to the "old man" being a demon. Also in Isaiah 14:9-10 it shows the dead in Sheol rising from thrones and speaking.

Aieno Wrote:

In Revelation John has a vision of martyrs under the altar asking when God would avenge their blood, so even if this should be taken literally what was not in the vision was the souls of those who had not been martyred before the great tribulation.

Genesis 4:10
The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground.
NAS

Is this mere symbolism, like the verses that talk of blood crying out from the ground? Even IF it is symbolic in those verses, it is clear that the dead are not silent. There is something that cries out, more than just symbolically.

When Revelation talks of people in heaven, it refers to real people. They may well be symbolic, but that doesn't mean they are not also real.

Aieno Wrote:

Why do you interpret "elders" to mean souls in heaven? God's council in heaven are properly called "elders".

I did not interpretate anything, I just quoted the bible.

Aieno Wrote:

Why would Luke report parables as parables? Why not ask Luke?Quote:
Matthew 13:10-15
10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" 11 And He answered and said to them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 "For whoever has, to him shall more be given, and he shall have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 "And in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,

'You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;
And you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;
15 For the heart of this people has become dull,
And with their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes
Lest they should see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart and return,
And I should heal them.'
NAS

Luke 8:10
10 And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, in order that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.
NAS

Luke reported, he did not interpret.

You may think you can find more verses that show an immortal soul, but that requires you ignore all the verses that state the dead cannot praise the LORD. You also have to ignore the clear Biblical teaching that mortal man puts on immortality only after the Lord's second coming.

Luke, as a historian, wrote literally and factually, not cryptically. Luke would have surely explained the parable if it were not to be taken literally. Jesus used parables, that were clearly figurative in meaning.

Examples include fishing nets, mustard trees, and so on, that were obviously not to be taken literally as real life events.

Aieno Wrote:

Jews reject the Maccabees as canon, and for good reason since those books contradict the rest of God's word in matters of faith

You THINK it contradicts the rest of God's word, but it does not. The book of Maccabees teaches prayer for the dead and sacrificial offerings, both to free the dead from sin, merits of the martyrs, Intercession of the saints and resurrection from the dead, so yes, I know why you reject 2 Maccabees. During Jesus' time there were two Old Testament canons in use. There was the Palestinian canon, (your one) and there was the Alexandrian canon (Septuagint) which is identical to the Catholic Old Testament. The reason why we accept the Septuagint is simple. The Apostles and the early Church used the Septuagint.