Christian/Muslim ThreadsWas Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man at the Same Time?Hello adampastor!
adampastor wrote:I never mentioned John 8:58 at all ... not sure why you mentioned it; maybe you're quoting someone else.
Anyways, let's go there ...
The LXX is quoted extensively in the NT; that is why many OT quotes (e.g. Acts 8:32ff, Book of Hebs, etc) differ in their wording from our OTs.
The Apostles quoted this Greek OT many times. They obviously had no problem with it ... plus they quoted it as they were inspired by the holy spirit.
Agreed
adampastor wrote:Now for hundreds of years trinitarian propaganda have made a false connection between Exo 3.14 and John 8.58.
Here apparently, Jesus was calling himself the 'I AM' of Exo 3.14!!
Since, the Gospels are written in Greek, if John was indeed narrating a quote from Exo 3.14 ... he would have recorded the title that GOD used in Exo 3.14. In the Greek text, GOD is not called 'Ego Eimi'
GOD in Exo 3.14 states 'Ego Eimi HO ON' ...'I am the LIVING ONE'.
GOD calls Himself, HO ON.
'HO ON' meaning 'THE LIVING ONE'.
If Jesus therefore, was claiming before his audience, to be the ONE GOD using Exo 3.14, he would have said ...
"Before Abraham, Ego Eimi HO ON"
or
"Before Abraham, HO ON"
Actually, I am the One who exists (the One who is being)" would be the more literal rendering.
adampastor wrote:Nope! Jesus simply said ego eimi ... I am he
ego eimi ... I am he is generally, the equivalent to the wording ... It is me!! ... It's me!!
Here are some examples of this usage ...
- (John 4:25-26) The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
Messias is coming ... Jesus answers ... It's me!!
- (John 8:24) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
If you don't believe that It's me!! ... you will die in your sins.
Me who? The Messiah.
Let's for argument sake, following the logic that Jesus was claiming to be the 'I AM' of Exo 3.14 ... we'll look at this verse again, the way most trinitarians look at it ...
(John 8:24-25) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that
I AM [of Exo 3.14], ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
Now look at this. If Jesus indeed was claiming to be the 'I AM' of Exo 3.14 i.e. YAHWEH GOD ALMIGHTY; then why would his audience ask Who art thou? i.e. Who are you?
That would be a silly question!!! He just said who he was, didn't he!!! ... If saying 'I AM' meant he was GOD!! Hmmm!
No! Jesus said "if you don't believe that It's me!! ... you will die in your sins." They therefore asked, Me Who? i.e. Who are you?
So, Jesus by using 2 little words, I am ... ego eimi wasn't calling himself by some title or by some name. NO! He was emphasizing, It's me!!. They asked, who are you?
Note, Christ's answer: Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
If Jesus by saying I am ... ego eimi , was claiming to be Almighty GOD, then where did Jesus EVER SAY from the beginning of his ministry, from BEFORE John 8.24, that he was Almighty GOD? I ask you again, WHERE!!!!
However, from the beginning of his ministry, Jesus made many Messianic claims ... he claimed to be the Son of GOD ... he claimed to be the One that GOD through the prophets, claimed would come, he claimed to be the Coming Messiah ... FROM THE BEGINNING!
- (John 8:28 ) Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
When I am crucified, then you will know that It's me!! ... then you would know that I am the Messiah, & I do nothing of myself.
- (John 8:58 ) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Before Abraham was, It's me!! Me who? The Messiah.
In other words, before Abraham came into being, Jesus of Nazareth was FORE-ORDAINED to be the Messiah.
(1 Pet 1:20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
Note, Jesus never said that he saw Abraham, nor that Abraham saw him! Think about that!!
- (John 9:8-9) The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
The man once blind, used the very same words, I am ... ego eimi; that Jesus used in John 8.58. Huh! Was this man claiming to be Almighty GOD!!!
Look again ... (John 9:8-9) ... Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he. ... It's ME!!!
The man was stating It is ME!!! That's all that I am ... Ego Eimi means! It is a phrase of emphasis on identification.
- (John 13:19) Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he. ... It's ME!!!
- (John 18:5-8 ) They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. 6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he., they went backward, and fell to the ground. 7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. 8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he.: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
Jesus said unto them ... It's me!!! ... Who are you looking for? They said, Jesus of Nazareth ... Jesus replied ... I have told you that It's me!!!
I understand and realize that there are places in the Bible where ego eimi simply means "It's me." However, the context of John 8:58 makes it very clear that He was not just saying "I am He" ("it's me"). First of all, in this immediate context the Jews are not asking Jesus who He is. Rather, they are questioning (HOW OLD) He is. Jesus had made the point that Abraham had seen His (Christ's) "day." They responded by saying, "You are not yet 50 years old, and have You seen Abraham?" That is, "Abraham lived 1800 years ago, and you are not even 50. So, how is it possible for Abraham to have seen your 'day'?" The question, then, involves age--Christ's age. How long Jesus has been around. In fact, Christ shows us this by starting his statement with the adverb "before": "before Abraham was born..." Again, Jesus here is talking about length of TIME. "Before Abraham was born, I AM." Before Abraham was born, Christ was existing and continues to exist (the very trait of God described in Exod. 3:14).
So, "I am HE" does not work contextually here--which is why most translators do not render it so. The question in this immediate context was not WHO Jesus was, but HOW LONG He had been around. His answer that He "ever exists" was clear and to the point, this is something that cannot be denied.
In fact, the Jews' response to this statement also shows that Jesus described Himself with a term of deity: they tried to stone Him to death for blasphemy (which would have been the case if Christ had been a mere human). As I pointed out last time, John 10:30-31 specifically states this reason for them trying to stone Jesus.
adampastor wrote:I am ... Ego Eimi is a phrase of emphasis on identification.
This is how it was used in John 8:53ff ... note the question ... (John 8:53) Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
WHOM DO YOU MAKE YOURSELF TO BE??
It is true that in the remote context, the Jews challenged Jesus along these lines. But, again, in the immediate context of John 8:58, the question is not about greatness, but about just how long Christ had been around...and He clearly said that He had been around even before Abraham...which is exactly what the Jews understood Jesus to be saying, too. To repeat, the question was not "Who?" (answered by "I am He"), but the question was "How long?" (answered by "I EVER EXIST", and so existed before Abraham).
adampastor wrote:From that point onwards, Jesus was answering their question.
Jesus was making himself out to be the Messiah, the Messiah foreordained to come into this world, long before Abraham came into existence. The same Messiah, that Abraham rejoiced to see his day, the Day of the Messiah, and saw it by faith [Heb 11.13]; when the Gospel was preached to him [Gal 3.8-9,16]
Therefore, being the Messiah, Jesus was indeed, greater than Abraham & the prophets
The Law of Agency ...
The agent, the shaliach, represents the One who sends him. The agent, the shaliach, speaks for the One who sends him. The agent, the shaliach, acts for the One who sends him.
It is obvious that the Invisible GOD cannot be seen neither can He die.
GOD foreordained that the Messiah would be His ultimate Agent, Shaliach, Representative and Plenipotentiary. GOD's great salvific acts were to be & are fulfilled through His Holy One, through His Chosen One, through His Servant, Jesus of Nazareth the Messiah, GOD's Son.
Are you trying to say that Christ Himself did not exist before Abraham, but only His foreordination existed before Abraham. First of all, you are saying something that is simply not being said in the text; your theology has predisposed you to denying what the text actually states. There is nothing whatsoever even hinted that Jesus was talking about foreordination here. Secondly, the reaction of the Jews shows Jesus wasn't talking about mere foreordination. The Jews, in fact, had no problem with foreordination--they would not have been trying to stone Jesus for such a claim. But they did however have a serious problem with Jesus claiming to be deity...and they explicitly tried to stone Him for claiming to be God (again, according to John 10:30f.).
Your law of agency doesn't work here either. Both angels and Apostles were sent out by God as His agents; 2 Cor.5:20 specifically refers to the Apostles as "ambassadors" of God. Yet, it was not permissible to worship either of these (Acts 10:25; Rev.19:10). On the other hand, Jesus Christ was worshiped time and again as God (I gave you several references in my last response; remember one in particular--"let all the angels of God worship Him (Christ)," Heb.1:6. John 21:28--"Thomas answered and said to Him (Christ), 'My Lord and my God!'"
adampastor wrote:Therefore, many things GOD said in the OT that He was going to do ...
we see fulfulled in the NT, through His agent, Jesus the Messiah, His Son.
Just as, in the OT, GOD spoke and acted through His angels, His agents.
In these last times, GOD has now spoken and acted through a Son, Jesus of Nazareth [Heb 1.2]
This Son, the man Messiah Jesus, is GOD's ultimate agent who GOD has exalted above & over all His creation, including the angels.
The apostles understood this concept of agency, and hence, quoted the OT accordingly.
BTW, Peter starts of (1 Pet 2.6) by quoting Isa 28.16 that YAHWEH was to lay a stone ... a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: ...
Jesus the Messiah, YAHWEH's Son ... is that stone spoken of!
THEN Peter quotes Isa 8:13-14 letting us know that YAHWEH was speaking of the same stone! That stone was the one that YAHWEH was to lay ... therefore, in the fulness of time, YAHWEH made Jesus of a woman to fulfill all the Promises that He had made ...
Jesus is YAHWEH's laid stone
Notice that in Isaiah 8:13,14, Jehovah (vs.13) was this very Stone: a precious Cornerstone to believers, but a "stone of stumbling" to unbelievers. And this "Jehovah", therefore, is identified in Jesus in I Pet.2:6. So, it's true that the Father is identified as "Jehovah"; but it is also true that the Son is so identified; but, no surprise, since "Jehovah" means "the ever-existing One." And BOTH were ever-existing.
In fact, in Isa.44:6 and 48:12, Jehovah is called "the first and the last." And, in Rev.1:17,18, Jesus Christ is called "the first and the last" (also called this in Rev.2:8; 22:13-16).
Joel 2:32 ("whoever calls on the name of Jehovah shall be saved") is quoted in Rom.10:13 where "Jehovah" ("Lord") refers to Christ (see Rom.10:9).
adampastor wrote:There is no definite article [the] in either verses [Isa 9.6, 10.21].
The Messiah is indeed a mighty god.
This is not a title of deity. Men are called by this title in the plural ... see (Ezek 32:21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him ...
The mighty ones/gods shall speak ...
Check the Hebrew ... the same words, el gibbor in plural ...
This is speaking of men.
Wrong. Isa.10:20 identifies the Mighty God the remnant would return to, as "Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel."
adampastor wrote:Jesus of Nazareth, is indeed the GREATEST MAN ... he is the greatest being next to Almighty GOD Himself, because YAHWEH, GOD the Father, has made him, both Lord & Messiah, [Acts 2.36, 10.36; Phil 2.11]
So in prophecy, the Messiah is indeed, el gibbor, mighty god who will be enthroned on the throne of David, by the zeal of YAHWEH Himself. [Isa 9.6-7]; the same Messiah is spoken of as elohim in Psalms 45.6 where verse 7 states that YAHWEH, the elohim of elohim, the GOD of gods, who is the GOD of the Messiah, has anointed him, the elohim who is the King Messiah, above all his fellows, above all else who have had the titles el or elohim conferred upon them [e.g. Exo 7.1, 22.8-9, Psa 82.6, etc]
In fact, Isa 10.21ff is indeed speaking of the Messiah, el gibbor ...
(Isa 10:20-21) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon YAHWEH, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. 21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto a mighty God, unto el gibbor
This is talking about the Second Coming of the Messiah, when a remnant of Israel will indeed acknowledge Jesus for who he is, the Messiah, the Anointed One of YAHWEH GOD Almighty ... and in doing so, i.e. accepting/receiving the Son, this remnant will indeed stay upon YAHWEH, the Father.
The Law of Agency ... Jesus is the agent of GOD in whom Isa 40:3 was to be fulfilled.
There is certainly a sense in which Jesus was an "Agent" of the Father--in fact, He is called "Apostle" (One Sent) in Heb.3:1. However, He still retained His essence as God. He was/is "the fullness of deity in bodily form" (Col.2:9)...which is why He called for, and accepted, worship to Himself...something mere human agents (such as, the Twelve Apostles), or even angelic agents, were not permitted to do.
adampastor wrote:Here are some expositions from other websites that explain it correctly
[No, I am neither a JW, nor an Arian.
No, I am not a Messianic Jew. Neither do I endorse all the views on these websites.
I just like their exposition on Isaiah 40.3 and the shaliach]
There is a reason as to why Jesus never told any of His disciples expressly to worship Him. God has given all mankind free will and it is their choice to decide either to worship God in Spirit and in Truth and to Glorify Christ as God or to reject Him and serve the devil, He does not Force anyone to worship by saying " Worship Me!" That is why w all have Free Will, Furthermore CHRIST is now Glorified in al True Believers who Glorify Christ who revealed Himself as mere man but now have been exalted by Worshippers who has Glorified Christ as God. My Duty on Earth is to Glorify Christ to His well deserved Title as God and not abase Him to become as mortal man.
God Bless!
| View Parent Message View dfilename Return Home |