Christian/Muslim ThreadsWas Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man at the Same Time?In the Name of Allaah
[quote"Morlaupalociel"]Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 12:33 pm Post subject:
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adampastor wrote:
Sevryn45 wrote:
... you need to listen and understand what we Christians believe.
This is what we Believe
1. Prophetic Scripture
2. Yahweh, the Holy one of Israel
AMEN!!
Sevryn45 wrote:
3. Yahweh is Jesus the annointed messiah (Yeshua, which in Hebrew means Yahweh saves).
OOPS!
Jesus or Yeshua is the Annointed Messiah, the Son of YAHWEH [John 20.31 Matt 16.16]
Scripturally & Historically, long before the council of Nicaea, long before the time of Sabellius ...
it can be shown that the faith which was once delivered unto the saints [Jude 3]; consisted of the simple teaching that there is solely ONE GOD, the Father, namely YAHWEH ...
and the man Messiah was the ONE GOD's Son, namely Jesus of Nazareth.
[1 Cor 8.4,6]
YAHWEH GOD Almighty made the man, Jesus of Nazareth, both Lord & Messiah. [Acts 2.36, 10.36]
The Early Church never ever called Jesus/Yeshua, YAHWEH!
NO! They recognized YAHWEH as the GOD & Father of the Lord Jesus the Messiah.
To win Muslims, we ought to first present them the true and pure christianity as presented in Scripture; not the Hellenistic trinitarian creedal version that came hundreds of years after Christ.
Let us allow Muslims to listen & understand the pure christianity as presented in Scripture.
Sevryn45 wrote:
Because remember Yashua is Yahweh and in Hebrew Yashua means Yahweh saves;
Yeshua indeed means YAHWEH saves however that does NOT make the Messiah YAHWEH; anymore than Joshua who bears the identical name Yeshua, was YAHWEH!
There are quite a few men who possessed the name Jesus/Joshua/Yeshua in both the OT & NT; however this did not make any of them YAHWEH!
YAHWEH the ONE GOD in the fulness of time, made Yeshua of Nazareth of a woman, [Gal 4.4] ... in him, is the salvation of YAHWEH personalised & embodied [Luke 2:30]; YAHWEH has raised him up as a Saviour [Acts 5.31, 13.23]; through the man Messiah, YAHWEH saves.
BTW YAHWEH is not a man [Num 23.19, 1 Sam 15.29, Job 9.32, 33.12, Hosea 11.9]
Lord Jehovah is "I am who I am" (Exod.3:14). Jesus is "I am" (John 8:5. To counter this you have resorted to old--and disproven--Jehovah's Witness argumentation. You have argued that the LXX renders Exod.3:14 "ho on", while John 8:58 uses "ego eimi."
A. rst, you forget that the LXX is simply a translation--a non-divinely inspired translation.
B. Secondly, though, you fail to realize that Exod.3:14--even in the LXX--says, "ego eimi ho on" in reference to Jehovah. That is, even the Septuagint uses "ego eimi" of Jehovah!
C. Thirdly, the response of the unbelieving Jews shows that they themselves understood Jesus to be claiming deity: they tried to stone him for blasphemy. I realize that Jehovah's Witnesses typically argue that they were just trying to stone him for calling them children of the devil. But Jesus had called them the same thing in Matt.23:33 and they made no attempt to stone Him then. On the other hand, in John 10:33 the Jews specifically explain why they had made attempts to stone Him: "for blasphemy;and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." In other words, even in John 8:58,59, they tried to stone Him for claiming to be God after He referred to Himself as "I am."
D. It's also clear that Jesus claimed to be God as He accepted worship--and only God can be worshiped: check out all these instances where Jesus accepted worship--Matt.8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 20:20; 28:9; 28:17; John 9:38; Heb.1:6 {even the angels worship Him.} 2} Isaiah Chapter 8:13,14 refers to Jehovah as "a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence." I Pet.2:8 quotes this very verse, applying it to Jesus.
3} Isaiah Chapter 9:6 refers to the coming Christ as "mighty God" (el gibbor)--the same term (even without the Hebrew article) used of Jehovah in Isa.10:20,21.
4} Isaiah Chapter 40:3--"prepare the way of Jehovah"--is applied to Jesus Christ in Matt.3:3; Luke 1:76; and John 3:28. [/quote]
Jehovah....hmm not the Name of Allaah (God) Almighty. Hebrew tetragrammaton "YHWH," as it appears in the OT text is not Jehovah. The rendering of YHWH as "Yahweh" is much closer to the actual Hebrew name of God when the vowels are included.
The Hebrew tetragrammaton, YHWH, is the way the name of God appears in the Hebrew Bible. The Hebrew language is a consonantal language, possessing no vowels. Vowels were pronounced, but not written. They were transmitted orally from generation to generation. This may like a difficult system, and quite strange to us, but it is not that difficult. Just as you can decipher that THS S TH WY TH HBRW PPL WRT BCK THN, means "this is the way Hebrew people wrote back then," so could they easily pronounce words without vowels.
By about 200 B.C., after the time of the Exile, and due to superstition, Jews would no longer pronounce God’s name for fear that they would take it in vain by not saying it properly. Instead of pronouncing the tetragrammaton, they would say Adonai, which is the Hebrew word meaning Lord. Because of this superstition, no one today knows exactly how it was pronounced. This was also true of the Masoretic scribes who copied the Hebrew Scriptures.
When the Masoretic scribes, in the 9th to 10th ceturies, invented a system of vowels to preserve the pronunciation of the Hebrew Bible, they also inserted some vowels into the tetragrammaton. Because they too, did not know exactly how to pronounce God’s name, and did not believe one should attempt to, they did not try to insert the correct vowels into the tetragrammaton. Instead, they inserted the vowels from the Hebrew word Adonai, which are the sounds of the short a, long o, and another a with the sound of the word awesome. The insertions of these vowels were not for the purpose of pronunciation, but to remind the reader to say Adonai when they came to God’s name instead of pronouncing God’s name. If it was to be spelled out, however, it would read "Yehowah" (the vocalic change to the first vowel is due to the fact that yod, the first letter of the tetragrammaton is a non-gutteral, and thus turns the a sound [compound shewa] to a shortened, short e sound [simple shewa]).
Later on, in the days of the Renaissance, people were discovering the ancient languages all over again. The Hebrew Scriptures were being learned and read. When people came to the tetragrammaton, they simply pronounced it with the inserted vowels, not realizing that the vowels did not belong to YHWH, but were intended as indicators to say Adonai. As a result, they pronounced God’s name as Yehowah.
The spelling of "Iehovah" entered the English language through William Tyndale’s translation of the Bible completed in 1537. He transliterated the tetragrammaton into the English language with the Masoretic vowel markings as had those in the Renaissance. The letter and sound of the English "J" was a later development of the English language, and so this spelling and pronunciation would not change to "Jehovah" until the late 17th century. Since this time many English speakers have pronounced God’s name as Jehovah.
So how exactly should we pronounce the Hebrew YHWH? Because of the fact that the vocalic tradition for the pronunciation of YHWH has not been preserved, we cannot be absolutely sure about its pronunciation. We can be fairly certain, however. Here is a brief examination of the divine name of God.
YHWH is the third person singular form, most likely coming from the Hebrew word hayah, which has the meaning of "to be." In Exodus 3:14, when Moses asked God for His name, God said His name was ehyeh. This is the first person form of hayah, meaning "I am." YHWH is the third person form meaning "He is."
The original pronunciation was probably YaHWeH. This seems to be the case by examining Jewish names. Many names contain part of the divine name, i.e. yah, and by examing the vowels that they used to construct their names with the divine abbreviation attached, we can get a feel for how YWHW was originally pronounced. We conclude from the examining names such as Joshua, Jehoshaphat, Elijah, and even the word hallelujah (hallel=praise; yah=Yahweh), that YH was pronounced as yah. We also have evidence that Yahweh is probably the correct pronunciation from examining the Greek’s tranliteration of the divine name as iaoue or iabe.
In conclusion, although it is not necessarily wrong to say God’s name as Jehovah, by no means can it be claimed that Jehovah is the name of God that has only been restored to us in these recent times. At best Jehovah can only be claimed to be an acceptable way of pronouncing God’s name in the English language, and at worst it could be said to be a phonetic corruption of God’s name. The probable pronunciation of God’s revealed name is Yahweh. This is from an Non Islamic Source~!!
The word "Jehovah" comes from the fact that ancient Jewish texts used to put the vowels of the Name "Adonai" (the usual substitute for YHVH) under the consonants of YHVH to remind people not to pronounce YHVH as written. A sixteenth century German Christian scribe, while transliterating the Bible into Latin for the Pope, wrote the Name out as it appeared in his texts, with the consonants of YHVH and the vowels of Adonai, and came up with the word JeHoVaH, and the name stuck. /quote]
of Course the correct Name of God is Allaah!
[quote"Morlaupalociel"]Thirdly, the response of the unbelieving Jews shows that they themselves understood Jesus to be claiming deity: they tried to stone him for blasphemy. I realize that Jehovah's Witnesses typically argue that they were just trying to stone him for calling them children of the devil. But Jesus had called them the same thing in Matt.23:33 and they made no attempt to stone Him then. On the other hand, in John 10:33 the Jews specifically explain why they had made attempts to stone Him: "for blasphemy;and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." In other words, even in John 8:58,59, they tried to stone Him for claiming to be God after He referred to Himself as "I am."
D. It's also clear that Jesus claimed to be God as He accepted worship--and only God can be worshiped: check out all these instances where Jesus accepted worship--Matt.8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 20:20; 28:9; 28:17; John 9:38; Heb.1:6 {even the angels worship Him.}
Rememeber in Isaiah 42:8 "I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images"
Exodus 34:14 "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God
Even Jesus tells satan that worship is singled out only to Allaah (God) Alone. Matt. 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve"
Matt. 2:11 "And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, AND WORSHIPPED HIM: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh" This does not mean they worshipped Jesus like Jesus worshipped Allaah (God) Almighty. There is different types of worship, worshipped...etc.
According to the Webster's dictionary: Main Entry: 2worship
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -shiped or -shipped; -ship·ing or -ship·ping
transitive senses
1 : to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
2 : to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion
intransitive senses : to perform or take part in worship or an act of worshipsynonym see REVERE
- wor·ship·er or wor·ship·per noun
Since worshipping any one other than God is a fundamental sin, therefore, Christians some how believe Jesus was God since he condoned them "worshipping" him. Since Jesus (pbuh) never once in the whole Bible ever told anyone "worship me!" (as God Himself does in many places), we are told that Jesus was "hinting" that he wants us to worship him. However, as we can plainly see, what the author was in fact saying in these verses is that these people "fell at Jesus' feet," or that these people "knelt before Jesus."
How then shall we interpret their "kneeling down before Jesus."? Should we understand that they were "praying" to him?
Other prophets who were worshipped if we go by your logic Christians!!
"And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, [upon] me [let this] iniquity [be]: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid."
1 Samuel 25:23-24 "And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, [upon] me [let this] iniquity [be]: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid."
When Abigail "fell before" king David was she "worshipping" him? Was she "praying" to him? When she addressed him as "my lord," did she mean that he was her God?. Similarly,
"Then she went in, and fell at his (Elisha's) feet, and bowed herself to the ground, and took up her son, and went out."
2 Kings 4:37 "Then she went in, and fell at his (Elisha's) feet, and bowed herself to the ground, and took up her son, and went out."
"And his (Joseph's) brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we [be] thy servants."
Genesis 50:18 "And there went over a ferry boat to carry over the king's household, and to do what he thought good. And Shimei the son of Gera fell down before the king, as he was come over Jordan;"
"Worship" is one of those English words which carry a double meaning. Check the dictionaries.
The one most popular among most people is "to pray to." This is the meaning that immediately springs into everyone's mind when they read this word. However, "worship" has another meaning. It also means "to respect," "to reverence," or "to adore" (see for example Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, tenth edition). The second meaning is used more frequently in England than, for example, in the United States. However, the first remains the most popular and well known meaning in any English speaking country. Even at that, in Britain it is not at all uncommon even in this age to find the British addressing their nobles as "your worship."
New English Bible." In it they will find the translations of the quoted verses to read:
"bowed to the ground" (2:11);
"fell at his feet" (14:33);
"falling prostrate before him" (28:9), and
"fell prostrate before him" (28:17)...etc.
The Complete Bible, an American Translation By Edward Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith where they are once again honestly translated as:
"they threw themselves down and did homage to him" (2:11),
"fell down before him"(14:33),
"and they went up to him and clasped his feed and bowed to the ground before him" (28:9), and
"bowed down before him"(28:17), etc.
The Qur'an says: "There is among them a party who distort the Scripture with their tongues that you might think that it is from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture; and they say, 'It is from Allaah (God),' but it is not from Allaah (God); and they speak a lie against Allaah (God), and [well] they know it!" The Qur'an, A'al-Umran(3):78
Allaah (God) want Worship only to Him Alone
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