Christian/Muslim ThreadsWas Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man at the Same Time?Morlaupalociel wrote:
Lord Jehovah is "I am who I am" (Exod.3:14). Jesus is "I am" (John 8:58 ). To counter this you have resorted to old--and disproven--Jehovah's Witness argumentation. You have argued that the LXX renders Exod.3:14 "ho on", while John 8:58 uses "ego eimi."
- A. rst, you forget that the LXX is simply a translation--a non-divinely inspired translation.
- B. Secondly, though, you fail to realize that Exod.3:14--even in the LXX--says, "ego eimi ho on" in reference to Jehovah. That is, even the Septuagint uses "ego eimi" of Jehovah!
- C. Thirdly, the response of the unbelieving Jews shows that they themselves understood Jesus to be claiming deity: they tried to stone him for blasphemy. I realize that Jehovah's Witnesses typically argue that they were just trying to stone him for calling them children of the devil. But Jesus had called them the same thing in Matt.23:33 and they made no attempt to stone Him then. On the other hand, in John 10:33 the Jews specifically explain why they had made attempts to stone Him: "for blasphemy;and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." In other words, even in John 8:58,59, they tried to stone Him for claiming to be God after He referred to Himself as "I am."
- I never mentioned John 8:58 at all ... not sure why you mentioned it; maybe you're quoting someone else.
Anyways, let's go there ...
The LXX is quoted extensively in the NT; that is why many OT quotes (e.g. Acts 8:32ff, Book of Hebs, etc) differ in their wording from our OTs.
The Apostles quoted this Greek OT many times. They obviously had no problem with it ... plus they quoted it as they were inspired by the holy spirit.
Now for hundreds of years trinitarian propaganda have made a false connection between Exo 3.14 and John 8.58.
Here apparently, Jesus was calling himself the 'I AM' of Exo 3.14!!
Since, the Gospels are written in Greek, if John was indeed narrating a quote from Exo 3.14 ... he would have recorded the title that GOD used in Exo 3.14. In the Greek text, GOD is not called 'Ego Eimi'
GOD in Exo 3.14 states 'Ego Eimi HO ON' ...'I am the LIVING ONE'.
GOD calls Himself, HO ON.
'HO ON' meaning 'THE LIVING ONE'.
If Jesus therefore, was claiming before his audience, to be the ONE GOD using Exo 3.14, he would have said ...
"Before Abraham, Ego Eimi HO ON"
or
"Before Abraham, HO ON"
Nope! Jesus simply said ego eimi ... I am he
ego eimi ... I am he is generally, the equivalent to the wording ... It is me!! ... It's me!!
Here are some examples of this usage ...
- (John 4:25-26) The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
Messias is coming ... Jesus answers ... It's me!!
- (John 8:24) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
If you don't believe that It's me!! ... you will die in your sins.
Me who? The Messiah.
Let's for argument sake, following the logic that Jesus was claiming to be the 'I AM' of Exo 3.14 ... we'll look at this verse again, the way most trinitarians look at it ...
(John 8:24-25) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that
I AM [of Exo 3.14], ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
Now look at this. If Jesus indeed was claiming to be the 'I AM' of Exo 3.14 i.e. YAHWEH GOD ALMIGHTY; then why would his audience ask Who art thou? i.e. Who are you?
That would be a silly question!!! He just said who he was, didn't he!!! ... If saying 'I AM' meant he was GOD!! Hmmm!
No! Jesus said "if you don't believe that It's me!! ... you will die in your sins." They therefore asked, Me Who? i.e. Who are you?
So, Jesus by using 2 little words, I am ... ego eimi wasn't calling himself by some title or by some name. NO! He was emphasizing, It's me!!. They asked, who are you?
Note, Christ's answer: Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
If Jesus by saying I am ... ego eimi , was claiming to be Almighty GOD, then where did Jesus EVER SAY from the beginning of his ministry, from BEFORE John 8.24, that he was Almighty GOD? I ask you again, WHERE!!!!
However, from the beginning of his ministry, Jesus made many Messianic claims ... he claimed to be the Son of GOD ... he claimed to be the One that GOD through the prophets, claimed would come, he claimed to be the Coming Messiah ... FROM THE BEGINNING!
- (John 8:28 ) Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
When I am crucified, then you will know that It's me!! ... then you would know that I am the Messiah, & I do nothing of myself.
- (John 8:58 ) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Before Abraham was, It's me!! Me who? The Messiah.
In other words, before Abraham came into being, Jesus of Nazareth was FORE-ORDAINED to be the Messiah.
(1 Pet 1:20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
Note, Jesus never said that he saw Abraham, nor that Abraham saw him! Think about that!!
- (John 9:8-9) The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
The man once blind, used the very same words, I am ... ego eimi; that Jesus used in John 8.58. Huh! Was this man claiming to be Almighty GOD!!!
Look again ... (John 9:8-9) ... Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he. ... It's ME!!!
The man was stating It is ME!!! That's all that I am ... Ego Eimi means! It is a phrase of emphasis on identification.
- (John 13:19) Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he. ... It's ME!!!
- (John 18:5-8 ) They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. 6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he., they went backward, and fell to the ground. 7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. 8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he.: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
Jesus said unto them ... It's me!!! ... Who are you looking for? They said, Jesus of Nazareth ... Jesus replied ... I have told you that It's me!!!
I am ... Ego Eimi is a phrase of emphasis on identification.
This is how it was used in John 8:53ff ... note the question ... (John 8:53) Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
WHOM DO YOU MAKE YOURSELF TO BE??
From that point onwards, Jesus was answering their question.
Jesus was making himself out to be the Messiah, the Messiah foreordained to come into this world, long before Abraham came into existence. The same Messiah, that Abraham rejoiced to see his day, the Day of the Messiah, and saw it by faith [Heb 11.13]; when the Gospel was preached to him [Gal 3.8-9,16]
Therefore, being the Messiah, Jesus was indeed, greater than Abraham & the prophets!
Morlaupalociel wrote:2} Isaiah Chapter 8:13,14 refers to Jehovah as "a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence." I Pet.2:8 quotes this very verse, applying it to Jesus.
The Law of Agency ...
The agent, the shaliach, represents the One who sends him. The agent, the shaliach, speaks for the One who sends him. The agent, the shaliach, acts for the One who sends him.
It is obvious that the Invisible GOD cannot be seen neither can He die.
GOD foreordained that the Messiah would be His ultimate Agent, Shaliach, Representative and Plenipotentiary. GOD's great salvific acts were to be & are fulfilled through His Holy One, through His Chosen One, through His Servant, Jesus of Nazareth the Messiah, GOD's Son.
Therefore, many things GOD said in the OT that He was going to do ...
we see fulfulled in the NT, through His agent, Jesus the Messiah, His Son.
Just as, in the OT, GOD spoke and acted through His angels, His agents.
In these last times, GOD has now spoken and acted through a Son, Jesus of Nazareth [Heb 1.2]
This Son, the man Messiah Jesus, is GOD's ultimate agent who GOD has exalted above & over all His creation, including the angels.
The apostles understood this concept of agency, and hence, quoted the OT accordingly.
BTW, Peter starts of (1 Pet 2.6) by quoting Isa 28.16 that YAHWEH was to lay a stone ... a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: ...
Jesus the Messiah, YAHWEH's Son ... is that stone spoken of!
THEN Peter quotes Isa 8:13-14 letting us know that YAHWEH was speaking of the same stone! That stone was the one that YAHWEH was to lay ... therefore, in the fulness of time, YAHWEH made Jesus of a woman to fulfill all the Promises that He had made ...
Jesus is YAHWEH's laid stone
Morlaupalociel wrote:3} Isaiah Chapter 9:6 refers to the coming Christ as "mighty God" (el gibbor)--the same term (even without the Hebrew article) used of Jehovah in Isa.10:20,21.
There is no definite article [the] in either verses [Isa 9.6, 10.21].
The Messiah is indeed a mighty god.
This is not a title of deity. Men are called by this title in the plural ... see (Ezek 32:21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him ...
The mighty ones/gods shall speak ...
Check the Hebrew ... the same words, el gibbor in plural ...
This is speaking of men.
Jesus of Nazareth, is indeed the GREATEST MAN ... he is the greatest being next to Almighty GOD Himself, because YAHWEH, GOD the Father, has made him, both Lord & Messiah, [Acts 2.36, 10.36; Phil 2.11]
So in prophecy, the Messiah is indeed, el gibbor, mighty god who will be enthroned on the throne of David, by the zeal of YAHWEH Himself. [Isa 9.6-7]; the same Messiah is spoken of as elohim in Psalms 45.6 where verse 7 states that YAHWEH, the elohim of elohim, the GOD of gods, who is the GOD of the Messiah, has anointed him, the elohim who is the King Messiah, above all his fellows, above all else who have had the titles el or elohim conferred upon them [e.g. Exo 7.1, 22.8-9, Psa 82.6, etc]
In fact, Isa 10.21ff is indeed speaking of the Messiah, el gibbor ...
(Isa 10:20-21) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon YAHWEH, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. 21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto a mighty God, unto el gibbor
This is talking about the Second Coming of the Messiah, when a remnant of Israel will indeed acknowledge Jesus for who he is, the Messiah, the Anointed One of YAHWEH GOD Almighty ... and in doing so, i.e. accepting/receiving the Son, this remnant will indeed stay upon YAHWEH, the Father.
See for more info, ...
http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/65.htm
http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/46.htm#3
Morlaupalociel wrote:4} Isaiah Chapter 40:3--"prepare the way of Jehovah"--is applied to Jesus Christ in Matt.3:3; Luke 1:76; and John 3:28.
The Law of Agency ... Jesus is the agent of GOD in whom Isa 40:3 was to be fulfilled.
Here are some expositions from other websites that explain it correctly
[No, I am neither a JW, nor an Arian.
No, I am not a Messianic Jew. Neither do I endorse all the views on these websites.
I just like their exposition on Isaiah 40.3 and the shaliach]
http://reslight.addr.com/isa40-3.html
See also http://www.torahofmessiah.com/shaliach.htm
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