ArchivedThe Truth and truthsNote: I'm gonna snip the stuff that we've finished discussing - these posts are getting terribly long! If I snip something that you wanted a response to, let me know, although I'll try to keep all the interesting stuff! The people studying it and declaring truth are believers. It's like asking an Evolutionary Apologist to tell you how life came to exist - they have a personal stake in the answer. That is why I'm a big believer in "study it yourself" - you're the only one that can make an informed decision on things which do not have "proof". What evidence? That it's been around for 1800 years? That Billions of people believe it? I'm not sure what evidence you're talking about, but if it relies on what people believe then it's not evidence... Just because something can't be disproven doesn't mean it should be trusted. Here's a quick example: The four books in the NT were written long after Jesus died. I'm told that the reason the authors waited was that they were *expecting* Jesus to come back in their lifetime. Fast-forward about 40 years and you have some guys getting freaked out because it hasn't happened yet. I'm digressing again...sorry... Not only that, the Bible was "hand-built" - there are books that were apparently just as "true" as the books included that have not been. The stories have been "selected" for their accuracy. They were selected and chosen for specific (IMO) socio/political agendas (more on this later). This may seem like a stupid question: Why not? Why do you care what happens to me or anyone else for that matter? Is it just because the Bible (and Jesus) tells you that you're supposed to? According to the Catholics they are a branch of Christianity (much as Baptists, Mormons, and JW's believe). Not to be offensive, but to someone that has selected a non-Christian (or non Christ involved) religion, each and every one of those religions is just as valid (or invalid). I realize that from inside the Faith it is certainly not that way - much as being a Pagan does not make me a Satanist (from inside Paganism), however from *outside* the Faith of Paganism, we're all Satanists. Does that make sense or am I befuddling things? But if a person is completely not interested in discovering what it means, should Christians still attempt to "push" them in that direction? Human nature says that when you're pushed you should push back - that's natural - I have seen alot of people become Athiests because they simply decided they didn't want to have anything to do with a "pushy" religion... I can't remember exactly how much I explained...suffice it to say that my religion is made up of a plethora of other Faiths and is either supported by science (not much of it is, I'll be honest) or is supported solely by what feels right to me. If something doesn't feel right, I don't believe it. If something hurts (or potentially hurts) an innocent person, I don't believe it. If something doesn't make sense to me, I don't believe it...etc etc etc Quite possibly both. I'd even go so far to say that my understanding, my religion, and my ability to believe are in a constant state of growth. The only time I get really intolerant of a person's faith is when they go out of their way to force their opinion on me. As in the prior example I gave (I called one of my coworkers and got preached to during the transfer). I will admit that I get frustrated by Christians that say their Faith is self-evident but can't support it... There's always a time and a place, though, and I've known *hundreds* of people to seek out Christian organizations to learn the Faith because they didn't know. Just because you don't hear about the seekers doesn't mean they're not seeking. Likewise, just because I'm Pagan doesn't mean I chose my Faith based on a lack of understanding. Isn't it possible that I became Pagan because I understood Christian doctrine and disagreed with it? Likewise, I have had experiences with my own Faith that convinced me of it's validity. They may not convince anyone except for myself (much as your experiences will only convince you), but they're good enough for me. If I hadn't found Paganism, I would likely be dead or in prison right now... This is where my understanding falls apart. I'll give you an example: There are many Christians that say they're homosexuals. They appreciate the male form, enjoy male company, enjoy male sex, and have absolutely no interest in females. According to the Bible, they are wrong. If they are Christian they have to believe they are wrong. Which means they either have to deny their natural urges (which I personally believe is wrong), or deny their Faith (which makes me ask what the point is). BTW, I didn't want to use homosexuality because I don't want this to become a gay thread, it was just a handy example... What you're suggesting is a catch 22: For me to believe the Bible I have to believe ALL of the Bible. That means that if there's something in the Bible that contradicts what I currently believe, my view of right/wrong would *have* to change. I currently believe that my point of view is right - so why would I pursue a religious course that would totally go against my views on life and the difference between right and wrong? So either I change what feels right to me (which I'm not even sure I *COULD* do), or I live a lie... Sorry...I'll stick to my religion There are things in the Bible that I do not believe are wrong. Prostitution, drugs (with moderation), homosexuality, etc. The Bible, for me, cannot be truth because of those things. I'm not sure if I'm being clear...I hope so though! What you are saying though is that reading it in the Bible makes it true. I should believe the Bible because it's true, even though I don't agree with much of the doctrine, and by believing in the Bible I should change my views on the difference between right and wrong? As I mentioned above, that's like opening the box with the crowbar inside... I have some questions coming up here...keep watch That doesn't sound like love. That sounds like slavery. But it's not just accepting Christ though. I have to become a Christian and I have to actually BELIEVE that some things are morally or ethically wrong despite what my concience tells me. I would have to, in essence, lie to myself to be "obedient" to his law. Which also doesn't sound loving, but I digress And we're supposed to know all of this because it's included in a book which we have no proof of the validity of? Opinion warning: It sounds like the entire faith relies on believing things that rely on the belief of things that rely on the belief of the origional thing... An act of love, I'm sure... :roll: As a side-note, I find it interesting that people lived for so long back then. It's amazing that from the beginning of "recorded" history, people only lived until (at the top) 40 years old, however a few thousand years before that peoples life-spans were 15 times that... Sorry, that's off-topic but it's just another thing that I consider a contradiction... An all-knowing God would have seen all of this in advance, right? So instead of starting things off with Adam & Eve, why waste the time? Why not start off with Noah and his family? And wouldn't a perfect God have done a better job with creating Adam & Eve to begin with? Perhaps by creating them the way that Noah was created? Sorry...there's too much of this that requires my swallowing the unbelievable... Not necessarily, however my God(s) are not necessarily non-loving. Comparitively, your God is a Slave owner, but that's just coming from my perspective. Another God may have been a little less harsh in His judgement, may have allowed people to learn the difference between right and wrong on their own. May have had some sort of understanding of what life was actually like, rather than watching it like a science experiment and destroying it when things didn't go the way he had planned. I realize that some of my comments seem offensive, but I can't think of any other way to explain how I see these things and be nice about it. Just let it be said that all of my views of your God are simply opinions....that's all... See my age comment above...that may have some bearing on this comment... If God is omnipotent (which I'm told is the case), then your comments of "must", "cannot", "can only" etc make no sense. If God *makes* the rules, then God can *change* the rules (as he supposedly did when he sent Christ). If he can change the rules, then there is nothing that he cannot or must do. Likewise, if God is pure and holy, then God *defines* holy, which means that whatever He does by default IS holy. That means that were he to accept Homosexuals as non-sinners, the act would no longer be a sin. Once again, "required"? Once again, it makes no sense to me - I thought God makes the rules...that means he would be able to change or define those rules however he likes. I'm not impressed with his current definitions, so I refuse to play his game. I play by my own rules, and if his rules dicate that by doing that I burn in Hell (I am NEVER allowed to play his game) then so be it. That's not a game I have any desire to play...for many of the above reasons and more (which I'm sure we'll hit on later ) So in order for someone like me to believe in the Bible I should learn ancient Hebrew and Greek. I wouldn't mind learning the languages, to be honest, but I could think of far more productive uses of my time. If God left us the Bible so that we could know the truth, he hasn't done a very good job, IMO... And to the Witches that have been burned ever since. It only took a few hundred years for Christianity to catch on and when it did it spread like wildfire. Religious leaders (up until recent centuries at least) have always been political leaders as well. You don't see how the two are connected? I would say that if it wasn't for the Catholics and their own Crusades, Christianity would not be as prevalent of a religion today as it is. Of course, that's just another opinion, but Catholics went to some significant lengths to introduce Christ to the world. Well, look at it this way: Every time a Christian realizes that they have the understanding to make a change. Personally as well as socially - because you do have contact with other Christians and some of them may actually be in a more receptive frame of mind when it's a Christian doing the talking |
🌈Pride🌈 goeth before Destruction
When 🌈Pride🌈 cometh, then cometh Shame