Christian/Muslim ThreadsUnconditional LoveH2O wrote:Loki wrote:Why war untill conversion or taxing H20?
Where do you see Muir saying "until conversion" or any inference to this ?
Is that the only comment you can come up with? i thought we were speaking of Islam's hostility... and then you pick one some details
are you by this agreeing that Muir speaks of a hostile and intolerant position of Islam...
i see your responce in this light.
Loki: "your a big liar"
H20: "i'm not big"
anyhow to answer where i see this inference of Muir's perspective is here
"in confession of the superiority of Islam, they should consent to the payment of a tribute"
what you can derive from this, is that at least the christians and jews had to deny the superiority of their religion and were forced to call islam the superior religion. kind of like Saudi Arabia now, where churches are forbidden to be made and where bible's do not get past the borders, and if you have bible's at home you may only pray in private and not preach to anyone or you'll be harrassed by the religious police.
Muir wrote:...and by the Divine command to war against them until, in confession of the superiority of Islam, they should consent to the payment of a tribute.
Where do you see " conversion " being infered to here ? Let see if you going to get the bolder dropped on your head with this one.
just explained it, and i can quote you your quran and hadiths about forced conversion in more detail... last time i checked those were a higher authority in islam then Muir.
Bukhari:V4B53N386 “Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.’”
Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”
"Do not allow them to reside in your land"
In addition to the more general Torah commandment to take possession of the land of Israel, the Torah warns: "Do not allow them to reside in your land" (Exodus 23:33). The Rambam (Hilkhot Avoda Zara 10:6) explains that when we have the power it is forbidden to allow any non-Jew to reside in our land (with the exception of a " Ger Toshav" - a resident alien who has accepted some of the laws of Judaism).
Torah authorities, though, are divided over the question: To whom does this prohibition apply? Some hold that only a non-Jew who, before a court, professes faith in the God of Israel and takes upon himself to observe the seven commandments of Noah’s descendants, is considered a Ger Toshav who is permitted to live in Israel. Others are of the opinion that even if one does not accept these responsibilities before a court, so long as he does not worship idols and upholds the seven Noahide laws, he is not prohibited from living in Israel.
According to the latter opinion, good and amiable Muslims are permitted to live in Israel, because Islam does not embrace idolatry. Arabs, though, who are hostile towards us clearly do not upkeep the seven Noahide laws, for they fail to recognize the God of Israel Who has given us the land of Israel. In addition, such Arabs support terrorists, thereby violating the Noahide prohibition against murder, and they refrain from establishing courts of law which will try these terrorist, also one of the seven Noahide commandments.
While it is true that some early authorities are of the opinion that the biblical injunction, "Do not allow them to reside in your land" applies exclusively to the "seven nations" (Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizites, Hivites, and Yebusites), the majority take it to apply to any gentile who fails to uphold the seven laws of Noah’s descendants. This being the case, according to the two main opinions brought above it is forbidden for a ruling Jewish government to allow Arabs who refuse to accept Jewish sovereignty to live in Israel, and it goes without saying that it is forbidden to present them with land where they will be able to increase the number of non-Jews who do not uphold the Noahide laws.
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/shiur.asp?id=2342
With all do respect for RamBam, but this conservative jewish theologian was very intolerant towards other religions, and RamBam practicly shaped modern judaism... the way it was perceived before him "While it is true that some early authorities are of the opinion that the biblical injunction, "Do not allow them to reside in your land" applies exclusively to the "seven nations" (Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizites, Hivites, and Yebusites)" is if you read the chapter the most likely to be it... Jews threat Rambam as a prophet, and dare not question his jewish views in a negative light. They should know better.
and in modern day israel or any secular country in the world, you are always asked to uphold the sovereignty of the country... this has nothing to do with religion, and many European countries have limits considering immigration politics, wich also has nothing to do with religion... or better yet the subject it all started with negative discrimination by taxing a certain group of people more for believing something else...
that would go against the main freedom of every people, freedom of speech one of the things muslims find decadent, together with equality of man and woman and seperation from church and state.
Definition of Hebrew terms :
The prohibition, which forbids foreigners from living in Israel, is called, “Lo t’chonem,” not to allow a non-Jew to possess land in Israel [1]. There are two types of foreigners: those who worship idols and those who do not. Idol worshippers are absolutely forbidden to live in the land. The Rambam states: “When the Jewish People maintain a strong rule over the land of Israel, idol worshippers are not to be left in our midst, even if they are visitors or businessmen passing through the land, they should not be allowed entry until they accept the seven laws of Bnei Noach, as it says ‘They shall not dwell in your land[2].’”
Non-Jews who do not worship idols are called “ ger toshav” (pl. gerei toshav). Special laws apply to them and to our relations with them. For instance, they have to observe the seven laws of Bnei Noach, with the understanding that they do so in accordance with the Torah given to the Jewish people by G-d[3]. Unlike an idol worshipper, a “ ger toshav” is allowed to live in the land.
Are the Arabs “gerei toshav?” The Rambam says not[4]. The law of “Lo t’chonem” applies to them and they should not be allowed to live in the Land[5].
http://israelnationalnews.com/english/n ... Jul-02.htm
Due keep in mind that Rambam lived under muslim occupation, imagine he did say arabs are forbidden too in his situation! and seeing that he was a orthodox hard line jew, he probably would of have... but that is not a argument mere assumption of course.
Anyway, i am not a fan of Rambam who when judaism was losing it's identity revived it by outlining what makes judaism so different about Christianity and Islam and why Judaism's superiority can't comply with both religions.
So what is the difference between our rule that in order for a non-muslim to abid in an Islamic State they must pay the Jizyah adn that Non muslims are prohibited from entering the holy sites ? Also one will wonder why there is no mention of the question of Christians whereas the only non-Jews in consideration are muslims and thus is it self is in dispute among themselves.
in modern day jewish state (wich is theocratic and democratic) you are allowed to have different believes... christians and muslims make up 30% of Israel. And are officaly state sponsored by Israel... while in Muhammed's time two religions were forbidden in one land, they had to die, convert or pay a tax (untill they converted) in submission. Wich falls under religious persecution.
Persecution
NOUN:
The act or practice of persecuting on the basis of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs that differ from those of the persecutor.
...and by the Divine command to war against them until, in confession of the superiority of Islam, they should consent to the payment of a tribute.
Loki what do you think Muir ment by " in confession of the superiority of Islam " ? I hope this is not what you are understanding as "conversion", it means to acknowledge Islam as rule over them which is the like of the Jewish ruling"
it's more like that of the Saudie Arabian ruling.
...it is forbidden for a ruling Jewish government to allow Arabs who refuse to accept Jewish sovereignty to live in Israel,
or it is forbidden for a US citizen to deny it's government and do as he pleases instead. this is about sovereignty not about negative discrimination over a religion
fun fact: in Egypt you are forced to put your religion on your ID even when your a hardline atheist you have to pick a religion... pick one that isn't muslim, and you'll get taxed. If you -for what ever financial or absurd reason- want to convert to islam then your ID can be changed in minutes... yet when a muslim converts to christinianity it is as good as impossible.
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