H2O wrote:Liberate wrote:H2O all anybody has to do is read about the battle of Badr from the hadiths
Which do not show motive, cause and reason for those raids.
Now now why should a 'prophet' apparently following in the footsteps of Jesus, raid innocent quraish businessmen of their hard earned merchandise, and ransom their captured folk? The quraish never instigated any of those wars, the battle of Badr occurred because the quraish sent men to escort their caravans, they had had enough after Mohammed and his mujaheddins had stolen from them countless times without reply.
We also noticed you didnt mentioned the Quran when it is the supperior to hadeeth in authority.
Good grief what does the koran say about the battle of Badr?
which verse can you possibly pick and claim it refers to the battle of badr and puts the muslims as the innocent victims?, show me the verse and I will show you from the tasir of that verse that you do not have a leg to stand on.
Liberate wrote:This is the reason for the Battle of Badr:...........
Your sources are just blowing air out of their mouths.
My sources are from hadiths written by muslims not christians, not anti-islamic orientalists but your fellow muslims, didn't you notice the pbuh for the 'prophet' in one of them? On the contrary where is your source from? as usual it is you that is full of hot air.
Reason of the Battle of Badr. (Highway robbery attack on Peaceful Meccan Caravan)
When a caravan belonging to Quraish had escaped an imminent military encounter with the Prophet [pbuh] and his men. When their return from Syria approached, the Prophet [pbuh] despatched Talhah bin ‘Ubaidull⨠and Sa‘id bin Zaid northward to scout around for any movements of this sort. The two scouts stayed at Al-Hawra’ for some days until Abu Sufyan, the leader of the caravan, passed by them. The two men hurried back to Madinah and reported to the Prophet [pbuh] their findings. Great wealth amounting to 50 thousand gold Dinars guarded by 40 men moving relatively close to Madinah constituted a tempting target for the Muslim military, and provided a potentially heavy economic, political and military strike that was bound to shake the entire structure of the Makkan polytheists.
The Prophet [pbuh] immediately exhorted the Muslims to rush out and waylay the caravan.
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Book ... tml#Reason of the Battle
Here are further sahih (authentic) hadiths that state what happened during the battle of badr, clearly showing the muslims were the instigators:
Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 322:
Narrated Al-Bara' bin 'Azib:
On the day of Uhud the Prophet appointed 'Abdullah bin Jubair as chief of the archers, and seventy among us were injured and martyred. On the day (of the battle) of Badr, the Prophet and his companions had inflicted 140 casualties on the pagans, 70 were taken prisoners, and 70 were killed. Abu Sufyan said, "This is a day of (revenge) for the day of Badr and the issue of war is undecided ."
The battle of badr resulted in the quraish businessmen being taken as ransom and several were killed again all evidence state Mohammed and his gang were the instigators in this.
Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 297:
...The Qur'aish delayed in embracing Islam for a period, so the Prophet invoked evil on them, saying, 'O Allah! Help me against them by sending seven years of (famine) like those of Joseph.' So they were afflicted with such a severe year of famine that they were destroyed therein and ate dead animals and bones. They started seeing something like smoke between the sky and the earth (because of severe hunger). Abu Sufyan then came (to the Prophet) and said, "O Muhammad! You came to order us for to keep good relations with Kith and kin, and your kinsmen have now perished, so please invoke Allah (to relieve them).' Then Ibn Mas'ud recited:-- 'Then watch you for the day that the sky will bring forth a kind of smoke plainly visible....but truly you will return! (to disbelief) (44.10-15)
Ibn Mas'ud added, Then the punishment was stopped, but truly, they reverted to heathenism (their old way). So Allah (threatened them thus): 'On the day when we shall seize you with a mighty grasp.' (44.16) And that was the day of the Battle of Badr. Allah's saying- "Lizama" (the punishment) refers to the day of Badr...
"
Again no mention is made of the quraish businessmen coming to attack the muslims but vice versa.
The hadiths especially of Al Tabari deal extensively with the battle of badr, it makes the founders of your religion nothing more than pirates and crooks. If you stole from someone and killed them would you not be put in jail and cast as a criminal, pls explain to me how this when done by a man claiming to be a prophet of God with no prophecy to his name makes him a saint worthy of emulation? what will you emulate? killing and stealing?
They are making pure assumptions on the matter of the motive, cause, and reason behind those raids.
The motive is clear the hadiths state booty was to be had, the quraish had had enough of their wealth being stolen and stood their ground nothing more nothing less, it cannot be justified as a moral war, it is nothing of the sort, this is the type of jihad mohammed preached not mental jihad or whatever it is called by westernised muslims, this is the type of jihad incumbent on all muslims to undertake with references in the koran urging folks to go out to steal and terrorise unbelievers.
Of course your sources are Prejudice with a capital "P" which is an anti Islamic site whom do not substantiate as proof for the reason behind those raids.
My sources if you had bothered to check them which I gave references for were islamic sources, I take it you didn't even bother to read them?
The only source that show motive, reason, and the cause for those raids is the Quran, nothing else :
Were the muslims persecuted in Makkah for 12-13 years before their migration to Medina ? YES !
[85] And they ill-treated them for no other reason than that they believed in Allah, Exalted in Power, Worthy of all Praise!
[85] Him to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth! And Allah is Witness to all things.
[85]Those who persecute (or draw into temptation) the Believers, men and women, and do not turn in repentance, will have the Penalty of Hell: they will have the Penalty of the Burning Fire. ...
I have already had an extensive discussion with a muslim who was adamant that muslims were persecuted and killed in mecca regurgitating what he heard from his imams, you forget the quraish never shed blood in mecca, the worst that happened to the muslims was mockery at their new religion, I ask you what I asked that same muslim who couldn't provide any source, in fact the source he provided contradicted him which he embarassingly admitted to, show us where the muslims were persecuted and killed in mecca?
After the Migration from Makkah the Muslims where persecuted in and then settling in Medinah where they became established they were commanded to fight their persecutors and oppressors:
[2] Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
see H2O this is the noose around your neck, the hadiths will show you to be practicing al taqiya (deception) you cannot quote the hadiths that refer to the battle of badr other than to quote quranic ayats with no source whatsoever that this quranic ayats refer to the battle of badr? where are your hadiths?, how do you know the above verse is referring to the migration from makkah? I don't see makkah mentioned in the above ayats so where are you getting this from? where are your hadiths for the battle of badr?. Do you want you to be shown again to be an out and out liar?
Our brothers and sisters where in a prelude to war before the Battle of Badr,
says who? source? ---> hadiths?
they were commanded to fight back against those who persecuted them.
says who? source? ---> hadiths?
The caravan raids going to Makkah were the Makkan’s supplies of goods that were seized was no more than a stratagem of war to cut them off from supplies.
Do you really believe this nonsense?
maybe kicking out all jews from the arabian peninsula for all time because a few jews from Khaiber protested to the raping of their women and stealing of their property for a phantom crime they never committed is also a strategem of war eh?
This is merely a war tactic in order to weaken their enemies. It is the same strategy used in every war campaign known
If only you were a comedian H2O, at least I would know that the laughter you generate was meant.