Homosexual Discussion ForumHomosexuality and the BibleLets go straight to the nitty gritty here.
If people are going to use the Bible as the ultimate authority on the morality of homosexuality, then they have to prove that the Bible is without flaw. There are people called Biblical inerrists, and that is precisely what they believe.
Unfortunately for them it is EXTREMELY easy to prove that it has many flaws. Many inaccuracies. Many contradictions. Many misconceptions, and in some cases flat out mistakes.
Understand one thing that is a known fact. The Bible is not a book that was handed down to Moses like the Ten Commandments. Perfect and unchanging.
The Bible is made up of all different letters, allegories, treatises, editorials and so forth. It's also been added to, subtracted from, and deliberately altered at certain times in history. The council of Nicea is just one example.
In fact MOST of the scriptural stories ever written has been discarded as "not gospel" and hence not recognized.
So right off the bat you have problems here because it is MAN choosing to believe which types of scripture is "God's word". Does anyone not see the problem here?
Even besides that, the Bible is at best a translation of a translation of a translation of a series of events written AFTER the fact by decades and centuries in some cases.
So knowing all this, people should realize that the book itself is not some perfect tome of wisdom that popped out of the earth with Gods seal of approval on it. That's not reality, and you have to understand the origin of something before making a judgement.
Now if you wish to say the Bible is divinely INSPIRED then this is fine. This can certainly be the case, and this does not require you to believe that every single word is true, as we know very well that many things said in the Bible are NOT. The Sun revolving around the earth is simply one. There are scores of example, but it would be tedious to list them all unless someone demands it of me.
So to get to the point, the Old Testament is the only major source of the anti-gay rhetoric.
For the sake of brevity right now, I'll skip the argument about the word "abomination" as there is a good solid argument against the currently accepted meaning, which did NOT necessarily mean the same then.
In any event, I'll state one thing. The Old Testament said among many other things that eating shellfish was ALSO an "abomination". Considering how Jesus mitigated that specific old law so nonchalantly, obviously an "abomination" couldn't have been such a horribly unspeakable evil that it could be eternally unchanging. Is this not logical?
Why did Jesus do this? The only sensible answer is he disagreed with the Old Testament. He didn't say it was ok NOW by his word.
Look. Here's one translation:
"Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man." Mt 15:17-20
So he was saying it as in a "Don't you see this was a silly thing in the first place"?
Even on that ONE POINT alone, we can conclude that Jesus did NOT consider everything in the Old Testament to be absolute. You truly cannot conclude this any other way, because he also said things contrary in regards to cleanliness rituals, the Sabbath, etc.
So how can you possibly argue that those specific Old Testament passages on homosexuality are completely valid? I would like to hear this selectivity be justified please.
The second half of this argument deals with Paul (Saul). A friend of mine said it best recently. He was picking apart one of the "Stickies" on this forum when someone reposted it on his. Try to fault his logic if you can, because it deals a direct blow against any authority of Paul to condemn homosexuality in the NEW testament, which is consequently, the only thing you will find.
Quote:
Yes, the American society may be growing more lenient of this sinful lifestyle, but the question is: "Is God becoming more tolerant toward homosexuality?" For an honest person, the answer to this question is easy. "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6:9-10, cf. Gal. 5:19ff. and 1 Tim. 1:9ff.). "For this cause God gave them [Gentiles] up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet" (Rom 1:25-27). The Scriptures cannot be more explicit on this disputed subject.
Yes, the Bible is anti-gay. Thanks for the news flash. But did you know that all of those passages from Corinthians, Galatians, Timothy, and Romans were from Paul, who in turn was basing them on the homophobia in the Old Testament? Not one of them comes from Jesus himself. Interesting, isn't it?
Quote:
Some contend that God does not have the same feeling of disapproval of homosexuality as He did in biblical times. Consider, "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed" (Mal. 3:6). "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" (Heb. 13:8, cf. Matt 24:35). God does not waver on His verdict of sin. If God accepts homosexuality today, then why did He destroy Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen. 19)? Jude says, "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7). God used these cities as examples of His feeling toward debauched societies. If He does not condemn homosexuality today, then He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah on Judgment Day, "Sorry, you should have been born in America in the 20th century; it's O.K. there." As Christians, we strongly maintain that God would never say this.
No, but Jesus might say that he who is without sin should throw the first stone, and I see people throwing an awful lot of stones at those who commit victimless sins. Of course, one might always argue that the Old Law still applies, but the Old Law also told people that it was an "abomination" to eat shrimp and lobster (Leviticus 11:10) and that you can kill your children if they swear at you (Exodus 21:17). You can't pick and choose; either you still feel that the Old Law applies (in which case I hope you haven't had the Surf 'n Turf lately and your kids are very well mannered) or you don't (in which case you shouldn't be using it to attack gays).
Alternatively, you might recognize that the Bible does not govern secular societies, but perhaps that is asking too much of a religious fanatic.
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