http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=4664
Dear juniusrachus,
Apparently you are saying that Gaul (France), Spain, Britain, Africa (actually only part of it), Greece, Turkey, and Judea (Israel) will become a "revised Roman Empire". (I assume that you would include Italy.)
If so, then explain how it is that the countries making up this revised *Roman* Empire will hate *Rome* and attack her! (That makes no sense to me.)
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Rev 17:16 (KJV)
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Also, it is the *woman* who was drunken with the blood of the saints, not the beast.
Rev 17:6 (KJV)
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So, who is the woman? Rome (the RCC) or Jerusalem (Judaism)?
Rome sits on 7 hills, not 7 mountains.
Jerusalem sits on 7 mountains, not 7 hills.
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:9 (KJV)
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Rome (The RCC) is a harlot, no doubt.
But Jerusalem (Judaism) was a harlot in OT days *long before* the RCC even existed. Here is just one example of several:
21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
Isaiah 1:21 (KJV)
How could Rome be the mother of harlots when Jerusalem was a harlot long before Rome was? Rev 17:5 (KJV)
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Rome was drunken with the blood of the NT saints, yes.
But only Jerusalem "That great city" (Mystery, Babylon the Great) is guilty of the blood of saints, apostles, and *prophets*:
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and *prophets*, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev 16:6 (KJV)
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and *prophets*; for God hath avenged you on her.
Rev 18:20 (KJV)
24 And in her was found the blood of *prophets*, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Rev 18:24 (KJV)
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Jesus said that it wasn't possible that a prophet should perish out of Jerusalem:
33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Luke 13:33-34 (KJV)
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You mentioned "that man of sin" from 2 Thess 2:3 (KJV). Yes, that is one of the titles of the antichrist. But what about the others? There is no connection between a Roman and these titles:
king of Babylon
the Assyrian
"vile person" of Daniel
Babylon is an ancient city located in what is now Iraq.
Assyria was an ancient country/empire located in what is now Iraq.
The "vile person" of Daniel comes out of the estate of the king of the north from Alexander's empire. The king of the north (Seleucid empire) was located where modern day Iraq and Syria are now.
Don't believe any of this? The Bible said that you wouldn't.
5 Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.
Hab 1:5-6 (KJV)
By the way, the Chaldeans were an ancient people located in what is now Iraq.
Now, other than incorrect interpretation of Revelation and Daniel, show me any where in the Bible where Rome is mentioned directly in connection with the antichrist or any of the titles of the antichrist in contrast to the *many* direct and explicit end-times references to Babylon, the king of Babylon, the Assyrian, "the vile person" of Daniel, and the Chaldeans.
Oh, also if those 5 Roman emperors that you listed are the 5 kings which had fallen in Rev 17, then explain this:
How could Rev 17:11 be true then? Is one of those 5 fallen Roman emperors going to be reincarnated to be the eighth king who "was and is not"? I don't think so.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:27 (KJV)
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
Rev 17:10-11 (KJV)
I believe that the 5 kings "who had fallen" represent kingdoms and one of them will rise to prominence again:
# Egypt
# Assyria
# Babylon
# Medo-Persia
# Greece
Do these sound familiar?:
Assyria, Babylon, Greece (king of the north)
Keeping the previous comments about the antichrist in mind, pick one. And note that Rome is not in the list. Rome *is* at the time that John received the book of Revelation. Therefore Rome can't be said to be the beast "that was, and is not".
I certainly don't agree with the beliefs or practices of the RCC. And I have no problem in seeing that Rome is a harlot. But that does not make Rome the mother of harlots. In one sense it could be said that the RCC came out of Judaism. It would not be true to say that Judaism came out of the RCC. Therefore, Rome (the RCC) could not be the mother of the harlot Jerusalem (Judaism).
Yours in Christ,
John Reno