ArchivedOSAS revisitedAineo wrote:And what you want to ignore is there is no Scripture upon which to base "they were never saved in the first place" or that those who "fall away from the faith" did not possess a "saving faith" a phrase that never appears in Scripture.
So far you have danced around what Jesus and Paul plainly teach without addressing what they taught. Your use of Matthew 26:31 as proof that some can "fall away" and return to Jesus is ludicrous since Jesus' intent is different in the passages you are trying to compare. In Matthew 26:31 Jesus is showing that the apostles will fulfill a prophecy while in Matthew 24:10 Jesus is teaching that those who fall away will then persecute those who "endure to the end". Context is very important when trying to use a Greek lexicon and then wrangle over words.
You are the one maintaining that those who "fall away" or are offended in Matthew 24:10 never possessed saving faith where you add "saving" a word never used with faith in the KJ or NAS when referring to faith of any kind.
Instead of using the same response that I "dance around" scriptures and "wrangling over words" to limit my ability to refute your mute point, I will show you how my initial argument of Matt. 24:10 was indeed in its correct context. To state that Matt. 26 is merely a prophecy and should not be used to determine the correct interpretation of a word is a poor excuse, why? What was the reason why the disciples were offended "offended" {skandalizo} in Matt. 26:31? Because of fear of being persecuted, do you deny this? The same reason as to why many will be offended in Matt. 24:10, trying to find a loophole to avoid seeing the truth leads to self-deception.
John 15:1-6
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it, that it may bear more fruit. 3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. NAS
Aineo wrote:According to OSAS and you any branch that is in Jesus will never cease bearing fruit, which denies the above. How does one abide in Jesus and bear fruit? By faith.
Really Aineo? John 15:4 - Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
When does the branch begin to bear fruit and then cease to bear fruit? The passage above clearly states that a (person) "branch" CANNOT bring forth any fruit UNLESS it abides in the "vine" (Jesus), nowhere in that passage does it ever say that a branch begins its production of fruit then ceases to bear it. You must first "abide IN the vine" to bear fruit any fruit at all, and Jesus clearly stated that someone who does not bear fruit is cast into the fire, NOT bear fruit and then cease to!
Aineo wrote:Now ever if you want to wrangle over the Greek used in Matthew 24:10 how are you going to disprove Paul
1 Timothy 4:1
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; KJV
The Greek word translated "depart" is:
NT:868
aphistemi (af-is'-tay-mee); frm NT:575 and NT:2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:
KJV - depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdrawself.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
NT:868
afisteemi:
1. transitively, in present, imperfect, future, 1 aorist active, to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove; to excite to revolt: Acts 5:37
2. intransitively, in perfect, pluperfect, 2 aorist active, to stand off, stand aloof, Luke 13:27
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)
Now do you think you can actually address what Jesus and Paul said or are you going to continue to wrangle over words and appeal to a lexicon and ignore the context of passages?
Go back and Re-read what I posted, I clearly stated that the word for "fall away" (Lk. 8:13) and "shall depart from" (1 Tim. 4:1) are the SAME, which BTW your Biblesoft failed to show. I will reiterate again that in Luke 8:13 it uses the same word "believe" {pisteuo} as in those who believe for a while and "fall away" {aphistemi} because they have no root, and in James 2:19 it states that the demons (SAME WORD) also "believe". Disprove what? You have yet to prove that those who "fell away" were saved to begin with!
God Bless!
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