(Omega) wrote:Go back are re-read what I stated, you have yet to show any proof using scripture that those who fell away were once saved. I made a very simple comparison "based on scripture" that your quoted verses did NOT prove that those who fell away were saved and you have ignored this.
And what you want to ignore is there is no Scripture upon which to base "they were never saved in the first place" or that those who "fall away from the faith" did not possess a "saving faith" a phrase that never appears in Scripture.
So far you have danced around what Jesus and Paul plainly teach without addressing what they taught. Your use of Matthew 26:31 as proof that some can "fall away" and return to Jesus is ludicrous since Jesus' intent is different in the passages you are trying to compare. In Matthew 26:31 Jesus is showing that the apostles will fulfill a prophecy while in Matthew 24:10 Jesus is teaching that those who fall away will then persecute those who "endure to the end". Context is very important when trying to use a Greek lexicon and then wrangle over words.
You are the one maintaining that those who "fall away" or are offended in Matthew 24:10 never possessed saving faith where you add "saving" a word never used with faith in the KJ or NAS when referring to faith of any kind.
John 15:1-6
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it, that it may bear more fruit. 3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. NAS
According to OSAS and you any branch that is in Jesus will never cease bearing fruit, which denies the above. How does one abide in Jesus and bear fruit? By faith.
Now ever if you want to wrangle over the Greek used in Matthew 24:10 how are you going to disprove Paul?
1 Timothy 4:1
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; KJV
The Greek word translated "depart" is:
NT:868
aphistemi (af-is'-tay-mee); frm NT:575 and NT:2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:
KJV - depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdrawself.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
NT:868
afisteemi:
1. transitively, in present, imperfect, future, 1 aorist active, to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove; to excite to revolt: Acts 5:37
2. intransitively, in perfect, pluperfect, 2 aorist active, to stand off, stand aloof, Luke 13:27
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)
Now do you think you can actually address what Jesus and Paul said or are you going to continue to wrangle over words and appeal to a lexicon and ignore the context of passages?