I read all your post carol, alpha....thanks for the effort.
But again I repeat it, these are not the teachings of Jesus, theses are the teachings of Paul.
See for yourselves, whenever any christian is faced with something that contradicts Jesus's teachings, he refers to Paul......Paul created a new religion that doesn't belong in any way to the teachings of Jesus..
And sorry carol, I can't worship a god that dies for my sins, a dead god isn't worth of worshipping.....especially when his divinity (I mean Jesus) as god is much doubted......please read my response in the topic Gos is Jesus and Jesus is God....
Here are some information I found to be very usueful , at least with my poor english, please read and comment...
When I debate with Christians, they generally say that the only way a person can get saved and go to Heaven is to believe and accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior who died for him on the cross to purify him from his sins. Anyone who doesn't believe in this would not be saved. They always bring the following verse from the Bible as a proof to this claim:
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (From the NIV Bible, John 14:6)"
It is important to know that most of the Bible, especially the New Testament, has general and controversial statements like this one. This verse might sound like a clear proof for the Trinitarians, but as we read the verses below, we will see that it really doesn't mean that the person HAS TO ACCEPT JESUS AS HIS MEDIATOR between him and GOD Almighty to be saved. Let us read the following:
"If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, 'Love your neighbor as yourself,' you are doing right. (From the NIV Bible, James 2:8)"
"The entire law is summed up in a single command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' (From the NIV Bible, Galatians 5:14)"
Jesus said: loving GOD Almighty so much and being nice to your neighbors will cause you to have eternal life:
Luke 10
25. On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26. "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27. He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "
28. "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
Notice that the man's question was straight forward: "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" No other question can be more straight forward than this!
Notice how Jesus answered this straight forward question: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart......and love your neighbor as yourself......Do this and you will live."
Notice that Jesus didn't talk about any trinity concept, nor did he say to the man that he must accept Jesus as a mediator between him and GOD Almighty to win eternal life. No Jesus was pretty clear and straight forward here: LOVE GOD ALMIGHTY AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBORS AS YOURSELF. That is simply all there is to it to win eternal life in Jesus' standards.
It certainly wasn't necessary for the man who asked the question to believe in trinity in order for him to be saved. Jesus assured him Paradise if he believed otherwise.
Here are more quotes that refute the dogma of trinity and the lie of accepting of Jesus as the mediator between you and GOD Almighty in order for you to win eternal life:
1- Acts 20:34-36 "In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: `It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"
2- Matthew 5:9-11 "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
3- Matthew 5:8-10 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God."
4- Matthew 5:5-7 "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled."
5- Matthew 5:6-8 "Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy."
6- Matthew 5:7-9 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God."
7- Matthew 5:3-5 "Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted."
8- Matthew 5:4-6 "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth."
9- Mark 12:29 "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." See Answering Trinity
Most Christians today believe that if a person doesn't believe that Jesus died on the cross for his/her sins, then there is not even the least chance for that person to enter Paradise. Jesus in John 17:4 refuted this gibberish nonsense. Let us look at what Jesus peace be upon him said in John 17:1-10:
John 17
1. After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
2. "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.
3. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
4. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. ......even before the claimed crucifiction, he completed the work....how comes than that he was sent to die?
5. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
6. "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.
7. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. ....he is not the same as God then?
8. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.
9. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
10. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.
As we clearly see in John 17:4, Jesus declared the completion of his work that GOD Almighty had assigned to him on earth. In John 17:8, he prayed for all of those who followed him and believed in him and in the Commands that he brought to them from GOD Almighty. In John 17:10, Jesus said that his glory is given to him (Jesus) through them.
All of this clearly refutes the gibberish nonsense that most Christians claim about non-Trinitarians and those who don't believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins are going to Hell. As I showed above, Jesus only cared about the love of GOD Almighty and the love of neighbors and people in general.
And for those who believe that Jesus was GOD Almighty Himself, i.e. the Creator of the Universe, when Isaiah prophesied about the coming of Jesus, he said that GOD Almighty will put the spirit of fearing GOD in Jesus. Let us look at Isaiah 11:2-5:
Isaiah 11
2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD -
3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears;
4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.
5 Righteousness will be his belt and faithfulness the sash around his waist.
How can Jesus be the creator of the Universe when GOD Almighty had put the spirit of fearing GOD Almighty in him?
Jesus peace be upon him never claimed that people are sinners and they will never enter the Kingdom of GOD Almighty except if they believe in the crucifixion nonsense. All what a person needs to enter Heaven in Jesus' standards is to humble him/herself like a child, i.e., be as innocent as a child. Let us look at Matthew 18:1-4 to see who will be the Greatest in the Kingdom of GOD Almighty:
Matthew 18
1. At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
2. He called a little child and had him stand among them.
3. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
4. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Again, another straight forward question was asked to Jesus peace be upon him. Notice again that Jesus didn't put the crucifixion nonsense as a standard, nor did he ever mention it, or even cared about it. All what Jesus wants from his followers is to believe in GOD Almighty and be good to their neighbors, and to be as humble as little children.
If Jesus was GOD
*If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.
*If Jesus was GOD, then why did he ask for GOD's Forgiveness in Luke 23:34?
*If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God? This tells us that we and Jesus have a common GOD.
*If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"? Can't GOD do anything he wills?
*If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?
*If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit"?
*If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 10:18 Jesus said “And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”?
*If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of crucifixion?
*If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 18:38 he didn't reply when he was asked about the truth?
*If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows?
*If Jesus was GOD, then why in Isaiah 11:2-3 GOD had put the spirit of fearing GOD in Jesus?
*If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:31 Jesus told his followers that if he (Jesus) bears witness of himself, then his record is not true?
*If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can't do a single thing of his own initiative?
*If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:36-38 Jesus said that GOD had assigned him (Jesus) work and GOD is a witness on Jesus?
*If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice?
*If Jesus was GOD, then why did he pray to his GOD in Luke 5:16?
*If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD?
*If Jesus was GOD, then how come in Hebrew 5:7 he prayed and cried for GOD to hear him and give him mercy by saving him from death?
*If Jesus was GOD, then how come in John 1:18 he said "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the FATHER'S side, has made HIM known." Where do you see Trinity in this Verse?
*If Jesus was GOD, then how come in John 5:37 he said "And the FATHER who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard HIS voice nor seen HIS form," Jesus and the GOD are different. People heard Jesus, but never heard GOD.
AND
1- Where, specifically, in the Gospel does Jesus (PBUH!) mention the Trinity?
(If you find no such reference from his lips to a god residing in three persons -- and you will not -- then perhaps you will be moved to consider the following questions
2- How could Jesus (PBUH!) possibly have omitted to mention something of such extraordinary importance?
* How could the authors of the four Gospels have made the same extraordinary omission?
(For no direct reference to the Trinity appears in any chapter or verse of any of the four Gospels. It is a patching-on from a later era.)
3- Why does Jesus (PBUH!) in the Lord's prayer address the Lord as "Father" and then refer to the Father's children throughout as "Us" and "We," instead of separating himself from the rest of the children of God, as the Trinity would seem to demand?
4- (And here is the big question, the question that takes no small degree of courage to address honestly If redemption through the blood of Christ, that one member of the Trinity, is all that is necessary for salvation, how are we to explain the many, many occasions in the Gospel that Jesus (PBUH!) details the necessity of submitting directly to the One God -- without ever mentioning the role of his (Jesus', PBUH!) redeeming blood?
Are these not extraordinary teachings? Are they not central to the ministry of Jesus (PBUH!)? And must we not confront dozens of them in order to defend the Trinity and the notion of the sacrificial Christ?
I am thinking, specifically, of:
1. His instruction to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind." (Matthew 22:27.) -- Jesus [PBUH!] identifies this submission to the One God as the *supreme* commandment, and yet for some reason he makes no mention within it of the sacrificial Christ or to one god in three persons, which are supposedly central to his ministry! Quite an oversight! Or are we to assume that Jesus [PBUH!] never actually uttered these words about the supreme commandment?
2. His parable of the Prodigal Son. This contains no reference whatsoever to the sacrificial Christ, or to any intermediary whatsoever for salvation. And the parable certainly makes no reference to the repentant son returning from his sinful journey to a father who takes the form of three persons. He returns to ONE father, not three. Surely we must either conclude that this, the most celebrated of the parables, has nothing to do with the Trinity or with the notion of a sacrificial Christ -- or, if we wish to retain the Trinity and the notion of a sacrificial Christ, we must conclude that this is not an authentic teaching of Jesus [PBUH!]. -- which is it to be?
3. His instruction to become as children (humble, trusting, submitting to the Lord) in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. (See Matthew 18:3.) There is no mention here of the sacrificial Christ as necessary to this entry to the Kingdom, and certainly no mention of one god in three persons! Again: Are we to believe that this is not an authentic teaching of Jesus [PBUH!]? We must assume such a position if we wish to support the Trinity and the notion of a sacrificial Christ.
4. His insistence on the importance of the individual's development of personal faith, without intermediaries, in the One God. This, is Islam! If that word frightens us, or if we wish to make ourselves feel more comfortable with the actual content of this divine ministry, sidestepping for the moment its verbal labels, we may call it "Jesus' ministry" or "Jesus' teachings." (PBUH!) But his ministry is manifestly one of submission to the One God, and we must think long and hard about the consequences of rejecting it in its true form. There are dozens of examples of such Gospel teachings about the development of STRONG individual faith WITHOUT INTERMEDIARIES, among them Matthew 6:23, 7:7, 17:20, Mark 11:23, Luke 9: 61-62, Luke 15:8, etc. etc. -- and yet there is no mention in any of these or the many other such passages of the sacrificial Christ or of one god in three persons! Is not this a remarkable fact? How are we to account for it?
I ask you as one who has closely studied the Gospel of Jesus (PBUH!) What kind of faith can we claim to be developing through the religion that bears this man's name, if such faith is at variance with what he actually taught? Why, in other words, did Jesus (PBUH!) bother to teach his followers -- you and I-- of the growth of the mustard seed, of the woman who seeks for the ten silver pieces, of the impossibility of being fit for the Kingdom of God for one who sets his hand to the plough and then keeps looking back -- why did he pronounce all these extraordinary exhortations to PERSONAL, UNMEDIATED faith in the One God, if all of them are to be superseded by his own unique personal role as a member of the Trinity and his personal blood-sacrifice for a sinful humanity? Again, we must choose whether we are to accept the Trinity and the notion of a sacrificial Christ, or we must choose to accepts the teachings of Jesus (PBUH!) concerning personal faith in the One God.
It is not a difficult choice.
There are, we would all agree, many corruptions in the New Testament. There are many points where the various texts contradict themselves or send strange messages patched on in later years. Yet if we read the texts carefully, we can identify those portions of the text that illuminate Jesus' actual ministry on earth. It is clearly a ministry that preaches submission to the One God.
-- seek carefully out the words of the man we have for so long called the Lord, and remember his words to us: "Why do you say Lord, Lord, and not do what I say?"
This is an excellent question!
And a muslim, like me, might ask himself:
*What if the belief about Jesus being the Creator of the Universe is true? *What will happen to me as a non-believer?
* What if Jesus did indeed die for people's sins on the cross? What will happen to me as a non-believer?
Well, my answer to these questions is quite simple: I believe I would still be saved according to the Bible. Jesus himself guaranteed Paradise to those who Love and adore GOD Almighty, without making any reference or giving any relevance to the belief of trinity or him dying on the cross for anyone's sins:
Luke 10
25. On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26. "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27. He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "
28. "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."