Christian/Muslim ThreadsMore sexual attrocities in Islam: Female circumcision, etcH2O writes: Kai replies: Before we start debating on the issue, let me just state explicitly that if abusing and hatred of this kind depicts the post, I may simply decide to leave such replies unanswered. Thus if I you do so again H2O, I will simply consider you unworthy to respond to. I mean you encourage other Muslims to contribute something greater on this forum, and that is fine, however, I do hope you avoid seeing yourself a primary example. Calling me a liar, dreamer, wishfull thinker, or a monkey or even indicating it, is certainly not godly behavior. H2O writes:
Kai replies: This is no lie, the practice of female circumcision takes places all the way from Egypt to Somalia. Certain groups in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iraq, Turkey and East Asia (such as Malaysia and Indonesia) are involved as well. As to the matter of extension of the actual cutting lets leave that until later; circumcision is circumcision, and if sunnah circumcision is equal to male circumcision we have indeed circumcision. For us Christians it was especially a chock when we heard that Muslims butchering Christians in Indonesia under the 1999-2001 massacres in e.g. Maluku, by Laskar Jihad, by force circumcised captive Christian, both men and women. The youngest female being new born and the oldest female being eighty years of age. I agree with you that the practice existed way before Islam, however, that does not excuse Islam, since it merely legalized the practice and motive of supressing the women and merely reduced the cutting. H2O writes: Kai replies: There are actually three types of circumcision. Anyway, in the disputed hadiths, does Muhammad ever specifically state that female circumcision merely meant the removal of the excess layer of the lips? All he prohibits is the severe cutting. Secondly, do these hadits specifically state that female circumcision is for medical hygene purposes only? Could you pleas provide me with some Hadith sources on the matter? Remember, I am not interested in the contribution or interpretation of latter scholars, but merely what would be most obvious in the actual cultural setting, because it is actual culture we elaborate on now, right? Thus hygine is not the issue but the control of a women’s sexual purity, that was at least the ancient cultural idea, right? So please provide me with the sources, where Muhammad specifically states that the female circumcision merely concerns the excess layer lips, for hygienic reasons only. I am sorry to disappoint you, but I looked a various non-religious forums and non-Christian, merely cultural and medical websites. In my first post on this issue I wrote: To this H2O says: Kai Hagbard responds: Well, if I would be laughed at silly, is a question since as you know, a lot of Muslims practice female circumcision because of these passages. I therefore suggest that rather than laughing at me, you take the issue up with them. Secondly, did I not note in my post that this particular saying was debated. I wrote in my first post: However, there are additional Hadiths which prove that female circumcision indeed was a common practice among the early Muslims, in fact the first followers of Muhammad, and the Hadiths seem to legalize it. Take a good look at Sahih Muslim, which makes a bath obligatory, say, if two circumcised parts have touched each other, under an act of intercourse (Sahih Muslim, Book 003, Number 0684). To this H2O wrote:
Kai responds: But where exactly does Muhammad say that female circumcision is the removal of the excess layer lips? Could you please prove to me that severe cutting refers to the whole of the clitoris? Can you post me the sources, please? Secondly what do you mean when you say that female circumcision alters a women? Would it not be more correct to say that female circumcision reduces a women? H20 writes: Kai responds: Yeah, but where does it say that? Kai writes: It seems as if you suggest that any cutting or slitting of God’s creatures is prohibited. By this you quote Sura 4:119 to prove your point: Kai writes: I dont see that you have proven your point by quoting this particular sura. However, to prove your point I am going to challenge you to post a Sura, which prohibits the cutting of man and animals but allows female circumcision. Otherwise I will take Sura 4:119 as a contradiction to the whole idea of circumcision. Now bro think carefully before you post your answer. Kai |
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