Christian/Muslim ThreadsMore sexual attrocities in Islam: Female circumcision, etcDear Fatima
Thanks for your response, and once again sorry for my delayed response. I am awfully busy these days.
I was especially excited about your translation of what (at least to me) seemed to be Abu Dawud Book 41, Number 5251:
"Cut off only the foreskin (outer fold of skin over the clitoris; the prepuce) but do not cut off deeply (i.e. the clitoris itself), for this is brighter for the face (of the girl) and more favorable with the husband."
Source: Al-Tabarani, quoted in Al-albani, Muhammad N., Silsilat al-Ahadeeth Al-Sahihah, Al Maktab Al-Islami, Beirut, Lebanon, 1983, vol. 2, Hadeeth no. 722, pp. 353-358 espeically pp. 356-257. See also N. keller (translator/editor), The Reliance of the Traveller by Ahmad al-Masri, Modern Printing Press, Dubai, 1991, e 4.3, p. 59.
However, I have to say that I am still not convinced, as the text you posted is not an accurate translation of Muhammad’s articulation, but rather an attempt to interpret the issue, possibly to suite the critical mind.
The actual saying as compiled and formulated accurately by Abu Dawud (if I am not wrong), differs slightly from the text you posted, and does not mention the outer fold of skin over the clitoris, neither the word clitoris. The accurate wording thus goes like this:
Book 41, Number 5251:
Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah:
A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.
Thus the text leaves us at the exactly same spot from where we took off. Basically, that, Islam legalizes circumcision without any clear description of how such procedure should take place.
Notice, I am not stating that the Islam legalizes excision or infibulation (the cutting of a women’s clitoris or more). However, there is no indication from the passages on female circumcision, which rules out at least excision (the removal of the clitoris).
Thus, what I really want to see is a passage, which clearly proves that Muhammad at the particular occasion or any other occasion referred to a kind of circumcision, which does not involve the cutting of the clitoris. Such is not mentioned, and the warning not to cut severely could thus refer to anything.
The particular website from which you are quoting may perform additional errors by stating that circumcision is a Sunnah for men and permissible (Makroma) for women. Possibly I am wrong here, but as I understand it, circumcision is obligatory for men and Sunnah for women (you may correct me if I am wrong, sister).
If I am correct at this point, the sources you are basing your conclusions upon are playing with their integrity. However, you may correct me if I am wrong.
My whole point was however, not so much in considering the exact means of cutting, but the motive of cutting. Some Muslims assert that the solemn purpose is that of hygienic issues: they base their conclusion on (Volumn 007, Book 072, Hadith Number 779. (Sahih Al-Bukhari)).
Even though such reasons may have ruled behind the circumcision of a male, the purpose is rather different in circumcising a female and several Islamic scholars would agree with me. Here are some examples:
Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
The most correct view is that it is obligatory in the case of men and Sunnah in the case of women. The difference between them is that in the case of men, it serves an interest which has to do with one of the conditions of prayer, namely purity (tahaarah), because if the foreskin remains, when the urine comes out of the urethra, some of it will collect there, and this causes burning and infection every time the person moves, and every time the foreskin is squeezed, some drops of urine come out, thus causing najaasah (impurity).
In the case of women, it serves a useful purpose which is to reduce desire. This is seeking perfection, not removing something harmful.
Al-Sharh al-Mumti’, 1/133-134
This is the view of Imam Ahmad (may Allaah have mercy on him). Ibn Quddamah said in al-Mughni (1/115): As for circumcision, it is obligatory for men and it is good in the case of woman, but it is not obligatory for them.
3 – Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
Abu’l-Barakaat said in his book al-Ghaayah: In circumcision of a man, the skin at the tip of the penis (the foreskin) is removed; if he only removes most of it, that is permissible. It is mustahabb to circumcise females provided that is not done in an extreme manner. It was narrated that ‘Umar said to a woman who circumcised females, “Leave some of it if you circumcise (a girl).” Al-Khallaal said in his Jaami’: What is cut when circumcising: Muhammad ibn al-Husayn told me that al-Fadl ibn Ziyaad told them: Ahmad was asked, How much should be cut in circumcision? He said, Until the glans (tip of the penis) becomes visible.
Ibn al-Sabbaagh said in al-Shaamil: What is obligatory in the case of a man is to cut the skin on the tip of the penis until the entire glans becomes visible. In the case of a woman, it means cutting the skin that looks like the comb of a rooster at the top of the vagina, between the two labia; if it is cut the base of it should be left like a date pit.
Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
The well-known correct view is that everything covering the glans must be cut.
Al-Majmoo’, 1/351
Al-Juwayni said:
The hadeeth indicates that not too much of it should be removed (in the case of women), because he said, “Leave something sticking out and do not go to extremes in cutting.”
Tuhfat al-Mawdood, 190-192
The point is that in the case of males, all the skin covering the tip of the penis should be cut, but in the case of females only a part of the skin that is like a rooster’s comb at the top of the vagina should be cut.
4 – The wisdom behind circumcision
With regard to a man, he cannot be clean from urine unless he is circumcised, because drops of urine collect underneath the foreskin and he cannot be sure that they will not drip and make his clothes and body impure. Hence ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas was very strict on the issue of circumcision. Imam Ahmad said: Ibn ‘Abbaas was very strict on this matter, and it was narrated that there is no Hajj and no prayer for him, i.e., if a person is not circumcised his Hajj and prayer are not valid. Al-Mughni, 1/115
With regard to the wisdom behind the circumcision of women, it is to regulate their desire so it will be moderate.
Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked about whether women should be circumcised or not. He replied:
Praise be to Allaah. Yes, they should be circumcised, i.e., the top of the piece of skin that looks like a rooster’s comb should be cut. The Messenger of Allaah (S) said to the woman who did circumcisions: “Leave something sticking out and do not go to extremes in cutting. That makes her face look brighter and is more pleasing to her husband.” That is because the purpose of circumcising a man is to make him clean from the impurity that may collect beneath the foreskin. But the purpose of circumcising women is to regulate their desire, because if a woman is not circumcised her desire will be strong. Hence the words “O son of an uncircumcised woman” are used as an insult, because the uncircumcised woman has stronger desire. Hence immoral actions are more common among the women of the Tatars and the Franks, that are not found among the Muslim women. If the circumcision is too severe, the desire is weakened altogether, which is unpleasing for men; but if it is cut without going to extremes in that, the purpose will be achieved, which is moderating desire. And Allaah knows best.
Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 21/114
Thus as confirmed from these Islamic scholar, I still consider the motive and purpose of circumcising women in Islam to be that of sexual suppression, by reducing her sexual desire, and then we can debate if these scholars advocate the cutting of the clitoris or not. This theory seems to be agreed upon by a range of Islamic scholars.
I am aware that you will disagree, so will others on this forum, then my question arises, to whom shall I consider to be of stronger integrity.
The Actual cutting and the false missionary paradigm
Concerning the actual cutting, most Islamic websites do state that female circumcision is the cutting of the outer fold of skin over the clitoris (e.g. the articles you quote from) or the part of the clitoris which is situated above the opening of the uretha (Fiqhiyyah –ah al’Mawsu-al).
There is however, one website, which challenges this:
The following section is found in the standard Shafi'i manual of Islamic law which states in English translation:
BOOK E: PURIFICATION
e4.3 Circumcision is obligatory (O: for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuce (Ar. bazr) of the clitoris (n: not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert). (A: Hanbalis hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband.)"
(Source: Reliance of the Traveller, A translation of the classical manual of Islamic Sacred Law (Shari'ah) `Umdat as-Salik by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri (d. 769/1386), in Arabic with facing English text, commentary and appendices edited and translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, Revised Edition 1994, p. 59; A: ... comment by Sheikh 'Abd al-Wakil Durubi; Ar. Arabic; n: ... remark by the translator; O: ... excerpt from the commentary of Sheikh 'Umar Barakat)
The Muslim site Islam Q&A gives a general explanation of the Islamic reasons for (male) circumcision
The issue of female circumcision is very contentious. Note first that the above translation of the Manual of Shafi'i jurisprudence (fiqh) provided by Nuh Hah Mim Keller is not correct, since what the Arabic actually says is:
"Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris (this is called HufaaD)."
Since I am not the expert on the matter, I make no assertions, however, if you are able to make a correct assessment on the matter, then you are mostly welcome to correct me.
Conclusion
I still need to see a saying from Muhammad which clearly states that female circumcision is not a cutting of the clitoris (notice I am not interested in interpretation or a scholars opinion or view. My only reason for quoting scholars in this reply is to prove that Muslims differ on certain points concerning this issue).
My point is still that female circumcision according to Islam is legal and even encouraged, and since there is no explicit explanation on its procedure, individuals are left with a choice to mutilate women.
Thus circumcision which involves the removal of the clitoris is not exactly banned according to Islam.
My second point, there is no evidence that in case of women, circumcision is a means of hygienic exercise.
A range of scholars (such as Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah) and the ancient cultural understanding would rather suggest a practice, which suppressed the women sexually, e.g. by reducing her sexual senses.
peace
Kai
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