ArchivedMinistering to Gays and Lesbians"Men come to repentance through the will of God not by an exercise of free will. The Holy Spirit convicts and converts, not you or me." If this is what you really believe then you are indeed a Calvinist my friend.”” Sounds like the Doctrine of Election, a Calvinist idea, to me. But, you might say: This is the Doctrine of the free will of man. We seem to have diametrically opposed and apparently contradictory doctrines taught in Scripture. But, do we? I see both of these doctrines as true. Let me see if I can give you a simile that makes sense. I view both of these doctrines as Biblical truth and compare them to railroad tracks and the Gospel as a locomotive. If you remove either track the Gospel will crash. Many Christians stand on one doctrine or the other, and argue to defeat the one they don’t like. When I am dealing with gays and liberal Christians who accept and promote gay theology, I stand on the Doctrine of the free will of mankind. I point out what the Bible teaches about homosexuality and will not back down. Like you I will not compromise the truth of Scripture. On the other hand, when dealing with those in the gay community and un-saved heterosexuals, I follow my belief in the sovereignty of God; teach about Christ’s love, His redemptive work on the cross, and the grace of God. What is grace? The unearned, unmerited, unwarranted gift of God, the free will of mankind has nothing to do with grace. Eventually the subject of what is sin comes up and then I simply state what the Scripture teaches about sin – all sin. Let me give you a little personal background. I was raised in what is today the PCUSA, a mainline denomination that has denied the inerrancy of the Bible for decades. I made a profession of Christ as my Savior when I was 10, my great grandfather, a Presbyterian minister from a Dutch Reformed background baptized me. In Sunday school we were taught all the nice Bible stories and a whole lot about Knox and the history of the Presbyterian Church (that means a modified Calvinist and dispensational doctrine) but nothing about how to study the Scriptures, pray, the power of the Holy Spirit, etc. At 18 (1961) I realized I was attracted to my own sex, prayed long and hard about it without any effect, walked away from the church and lived my life until I was 38. I knew what the Bible taught. In those days Gen 19:5, Lev. 18:22, 20:13, Deut 23:17, Judges 19, Rom 1:26-27, 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:10 and Jude 7 were the proof texts used to show the sinfulness of homosexuality. Fear of God’s wrath did not stop me from moving forward into gay life; since my prayers went seemingly unanswered I decided I was created gay (a lie from Satan). That is until I was 38 when God answered my prayer. I knew that the Presbyterian Church would not give me what I needed (a solid foundation in Biblical truth) so I choose the Southern Baptist Church (logical since I lived in Houston) for my source of teaching and support. I got a lot of doctrinal teaching and absolutely no support. So the Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ did both. And I learned about the grace of God, the power of the Holy Spirit to effect change and spiritual, emotional, and mental maturity. What set me free, the knowledge of sin? Nope, what set me free were the love of Christ and the sovereignty of God through His grace. BTW, I entered college to become a minister; I really did feel called to minister the Gospel of Christ. I got my BA in Business. In December 1999 I realized my calling when I was licensed as a minister. God is patient! ”So what you are actually saying then is that unbelievers should not be told the truth or warned about the danger that they are in because of their sin since this is an act of judgement on the part of those who would seek to warn them. Rather, only believers should be made explicitly aware of the nature and consequences of sin whilst the rest of the poor unfortunate souls should be left to flounder in blissful ignorance only to discover the truth on Judgement Day as Christ reads out the judgement against them and the subsequent sentence of death before having them hurled into the everlasting Lake of Fire (the "good news" of salvation is completely meaningless without first coming to an understanding of the reality of the "bad news" of sin first)?!” Of course not! I am saying that we should emphasize the love of Christ FIRST and FOREMOST. What I disagree with is what you will find on this eboard: http://www.voy.com/122092/ and many other Christian message boards on the net. Just read the responses from the gay community and tell if the Christians posting to Robert Baral’s board are making a difference? “With all due respect I do not have a legalistic attitude to homosexuality. I simply believe categorically and unequivocally (in accordance with what Scripture teaches) that homosexuality is sinful. I endeavour to communicate this in as loving and compassionate a way as I can but as a Christian who belives that truth is absolute and not relative I cannot and will not compromise on this.” I stand corrected, and agree that if you LOVINGLY AND COMPASSIONATELY declare all the truth of Scripture you will be rewarded with fruit. However, most Christians don’t approach homosexuality with love and compassion but with judgment. You are the exception not the rule, at least in my experience in my 21-year journey out of and living free of gay life. "Do I believe that God alone brings us to salvation? Yes." (And you're trying to convince me that you're not a Calvinist?!) “ No I am not a 5-point Calvinist. I do believe in the total depravity of man. (Gen 8:21, Rom 3:23, and 5:12) I reject any man is predestined to live a sinful life (ultra-Calvinism), however I do believe that God saves us through grace not works (repentance is a work), I do not subscribe to the limited atonement of Christ, and I reject the Calvinist view of once saved always saved (as practiced by many so-called Christians) ”For the record, I am not teaching "salvation by legalistically manufactured self-righteousness" but I am teaching that salvation in order to be shown to be authentic must be accompanied by works of righteousness (Jas.2:14-26) therefore the true Biblical gospel (as opposed to popular Evangelicalism's parody of it) is actually a gospel of salvation by faith and works and not just "faith alone" (for "faith" read "giving mental ascent to a set of theological propositions"). “ James teaches that good works is evidence of salvation; he does not teach good works as a prerequisite of salvation. Are you by any chance Roman Catholic? ”The first stage of the Biblical gospel is a call to repentance from any and all forms of sinful behaviour and attitudes and a turning towards God.” This is a manmade doctrine not backed up in Scripture. I am doing a Biblical study of “repent” and “repentance”. The prophets called the Jews to repent; in Revelation Christ tells the churches to repent. You are correct that repent means “turn to God” or better “return to God”. “Finally, having now dealt with and "signed off" the believers past through water baptism, the normal procedure is that the believer then receives the baptism of the Spirit in order to enable them to successfully live the Christian life and to walk upright and blameless in God's sight” It did not work this way with Cornelius, did it? He received the Holy Spirit PRIOR to baptism. "If you want to take on the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churchs (UFMCC), the largest pro-gay denomination in the world and other gay friendly churches with your stand -- fine, I agree with everything you say. However, members of the UFMCC have rejected the truth for a lie. They have exercised their free will and chosen to "worship man and not the Creator". But, I will repeat, many, probably most, gay men and lesbian women are not Christian or have any desire to become one. So you have to first preach the gospel and let GOD BRING THE INCREASE." But I was under the impression that that is in fact what I am doing?!” What taking the UFMCC to task for their heresy or ministering to the unsaved; you approach each from a different perspective, at least I do. "I have asked other's this question and never received an answer, let see if you can. Where in the Bible does it give us as Christians the authority to judge those outside the Body of Christ? Because that is exactly what you and other heterocentric Christians are doing." ”Except perhaps for during the millennium, there is, as far as I am aware, no mandate for Christians to judge those outside the Church. Au contrare, Paul expressly forbids it (1Cor.5 especially verses 9-13). However, if, in your mind, the proclamation of the gospel (which involves proclaiming the need for repentance from sinful acts and attitudes (including homosexuality)) is synonymous with judging those outside the Church as you seem to be arguing then you are faced with quite a dilemma are you not? How do you propose to resolve this dilemma?” Again, the Bible does not teach repentance as a prerequisite to salvation. And again, check out Robert Baral’s eboard and then tell me what you see. Notice the past tense in this verse? “Were sanctified,” means that at the moment of salvation God has set you apart; in one sense sanctification is the completed work of God. However, sanctification is also a continuing process of learning through the power and ministry of the Holy Spirit. "NEVER learn what the Bible says... ALWAYS learn what the Bible ALSO says!" I like this; maybe you should learn what it also says. Have you ever heard of Arthur Pink? He wrote an excellent book titled “The Sovereignty of God”. Pink is a 5-point Calvinist and although I reject Calvinistic theology I did learn a lot from reading Pink’s books. Another man you might consider reading is Jonathon Edward’s he is considered the best theologian America every produced. I would especially recommend his sermon “Sinners in the hands of an angry God.” Edward’s preaching is credited for the Great Revival of the mid 1700’s. So, with a little research Simonline, you will see that my belief is not just my own. Scott Schalchlin, asked a question that I answered through personal experience. As far as I can tell from responses on this thread I am the only one to answer his direct question with a direct answer. Now, Simonline, have you seen any fruit from your way of ministering to the unsaved gay or lesbian? I have, God has blessed my ministry with fruit. I will not argue with success. Reverend Robert L. Stephenson |
🌈Pride🌈 goeth before Destruction
When 🌈Pride🌈 cometh, then cometh Shame