Jesus as the embodied pre-existent Son

[Believer]

Because of Jesus's virgin birth, and the absence of intercourse between Mary and Joseph, what was Jesus's DNA? Something perfectly made to house the pre-existent Son of God. Some people believe that Jesus was not a divine preexistent being. Jesus tells us that He came from the Father and was there when all was made. In addition to this, a compelling account is given by Paul.

Phillipians 2:6-7
Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.
Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance,

Scripture states very plainly that Jesus was a preexistent being who came to earth in human likeness. He as the Christ is not a man, He prexisted men and Adam. He was there when all was made.

So if Jesus is not a human and is a prexistent being, who is He?

An important account is given in Hebrews:

Hebrews 1:1-4
1 In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
2 in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
3 who is the refulgence of his glory, the very imprint of his being, and who sustains all things by his mighty word. When he had accomplished purification from sins, he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 as far superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

Jesus is not an angel, but is much higher than them.
Jesus is the very imprint of the Father's being. A truly intimate relationship exists between the Father and Son.

Hebrews 1:6-7
6 And again, when he leads the first-born into the world, he says: "Let all the angels of God worship him."
7 Of the angels he says: "He makes his angels winds and his ministers a fiery flame";
8 but of the Son: "Your throne, O God, stands forever and ever; and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.

The Son is regarded, not only equal to God, but as God.
I fail to understand why a number of people fail to accept Jesus Christ as a pre-existent being, and as God. As the Nicene Creed summarizes Christ's nature as "One in being with the Father, through Him all things were made".

[Aineo]

An interesting historical truth concerning the Nicene Creed is that the bishops who developed this creed could not find the Biblical vocabulary to define the deity of Jesus so they invented some Greek words to describe this mythology.

What is also interesting concerning Believer's post is his appeal to DNA. The Lord's conception was by the power of God not the exchange of human DNA. God is spirit not flesh and unless one can show that spirits produce sperm that contain DNA this idea is pure conjecture and myth and denies that nothing is impossible with God.

In Philippians Paul wrote that Jesus did not consider Himself God's equal and that the Lord came as all humans do in the form of a man. The only way you can use Philippians 2 as proof of the deity of Jesus is to assume His deity and then force this verse to mean what you want. This is circular reasoning and a logical fallacy. Now if Paul believed Jesus is God he went out of his way to write that Jesus is a man:

Romans 5:15-16
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the on
NAS

1 Timothy 2:5-7
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time. 7 And for this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. NAS

Paul is in total agreement with Peter who preached on the Day of Pentecost:

Acts 2:14-39
14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea, and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give heed to my words. 15 "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; 16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:

17 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says,
'That I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
And your young men shall see visions,
And your old men shall dream dreams;
18 Even upon My bondslaves, both men and women,
I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit
And they shall prophesy.
19 'And I will grant wonders in the sky above,
And signs on the earth beneath,
Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.
20 'The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.
21 'And it shall be, that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.'

22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 "And God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. 25 "For David says of Him,

'I was always beholding the Lord in my presence;
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 'Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted;
Moreover my flesh also will abide in hope;
27 Because Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades,
Nor allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay.
28 'Thou hast made known to me the ways of life;
Thou wilt make me full of gladness with Thy presence.'

29 "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 "And so, because he was a prophet, and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants upon his throne, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. 32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:

'The Lord said to my Lord,
"Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet. "'

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ-- this Jesus whom you crucified."
37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself." NAS

Also Peter said of the Lord:

Acts 5:28-32
29 But Peter and the apostles answered and said, "We must obey God rather than men. 30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. 31 "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him." NAS

Now, if Jesus considered Himself to be God's equal and therefore God then Jesus was either confused on lied when He prayed to the Father:

John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. NAS

According to the Lord's own prayer eternal life is knowing that the Father is the only true God and Jesus is His anointed one (which is what Christ means).

[Aineo]

Oh, and before Believer appeals to Thomas' statement in John 20:28, we must understand that the Lord and His apostles spoke Aramaic not Greek. So the question Believer must answer is did Thomas say "My 'adonay and my elohiym" or " my 'adown and my elohiym". Why is this important? The answer is simply. The primary use of "'adonay" in Hebrew culture was for the only true God, while "'adown" was used by any person of high rank, position, or authority. While "elohiym" is translated God, god, and gods it is also translated judge, judges, messenger, messengers, and angels. Therefore in order to understand Thomas' statement we must understand the Hebrew foundation of Christianity and the role of God's anointed one (Christ/Messiah). God annointed and appointed Jesus to be His Messiah, Servant, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, His High Priest, Judge, and etc.

[Believer]

The main purpose of this thread is that Jesus was a preexistent entity. I thought you'd have something to say about that.

An interesting historical truth concerning the Nicene Creed is that the bishops who developed this creed could not find the Biblical vocabulary to define the deity of Jesus so they invented some Greek words to describe this mythology.

The Creed summarizes Christian doctrine. Nothing new is inroduced.

What is also interesting concerning Believer's post is his appeal to DNA. The Lord's conception was by the power of God not the exchange of human DNA. God is spirit not flesh and unless one can show that spirits produce sperm that contain DNA this idea is pure conjecture and myth and denies that nothing is impossible with God.

I never assumed that an exchange of sex cells happened, that was my point in fact. Jesus was a man, so He did have DNA. His body was created specially to house the pre-existent Son of God.

In Philippians Paul wrote that Jesus did not consider Himself God's equal and that the Lord came as all humans do in the form of a man. The only way you can use Philippians 2 as proof of the deity of Jesus is to assume His deity and then force this verse to mean what you want. This is circular reasoning and a logical fallacy. Now if Paul believed Jesus is God he went out of his way to write that Jesus is a man:

Jeuss didn't consider equality with God something to be grasped, this doesn't mean He wasn't equal to God.

Now, if Jesus considered Himself to be God's equal and therefore God then Jesus was either confused on lied when He prayed to the Father:

When speaking of Jesus as a man, a human being, He is portrayed like He is on our level, corresponding to Phillipians 2:6. Jesus as the preexistent Son of God is shown to be the one that created all things and is much powerful than the angels. He is a personality. He preexists men, so I don't see how He could be in His nature a son of Adam if Adam is His creation. That makes no sense.

Thomas doubted who Jesus was, but then realized after seeing. He knew that Jesus was the Lord. If Jesus wasn't God I think that Thomas would have been reprimanded.

[Aineo]

This is an apologetics forum not your personal pulpit to advance circular reasoning that denies the inerrancy of God's word. The preexistence of the Son as a heavenly entity is not supported in Scripture, which can be demonstrated from Peter's sermon in Acts 2.

Acts 2:23
23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. NAS

The Nicene Creed is a product of the imaginations of Greeks who lacked any true knowledge of the foundation of Christianity, which is Hebrew not Greek philosophy. Your attempt to obfuscate history exposes not only your lack of knowledge of Christian history but the history of your own Catholic faith.

Of course Jesus had DNA, but His DNA was totally human since spiritual entities do not have DNA.

As to any human being equal with God this connotes that this human has all the characteristics of God as well as God's nature. We know that Jesus is not omniscient so this fact alone precludes Him from being equal with God. We also know that Jesus had a nature like ours in that He was tempted in all things as we are. Now, since God cannot be tempted in all things as we are we can discern that Jesus does not have God's nature. We also know that Jesus learned obedience through suffering and God does not need to learn obedience since God is to be obeyed and does not need to learn to obey. You see Believer Hebrews is a great book to disprove the deity of the Lord since it is in Hebrews we learn that Jesus has a nature like ours, learned obedience through suffering and also that Jesus has a God.

Hebrews 1:9
9 "Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee
With the oil of gladness above Thy companions." NAS

[Believer]

This is an apologetics forum not your personal pulpit to advance circular reasoning that denies the inerrancy of God's word. The preexistence of the Son as a heavenly entity is not supported in Scripture, which can be demonstrated from Peter's sermon in Acts 2.

Acts 2:23
23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. NAS

Peter is talking about the man, Jesus. Jesus wasn't always a man.
What do you mean the preexistent Son isn't aupported in scripture?
I just explained this the last post.

When speaking of Jesus as a man, a human being, He is portrayed like He is on our level, corresponding to Phillipians 2:6. Jesus as the preexistent Son of God is shown to be the one that created all things and is much powerful than the angels. He is a personality. He preexists men, so I don't see how He could be in His nature a son of Adam if Adam is His creation. That makes no sense.

Phillipians 2:6-7
Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.
Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance,


Jesus emptied Himself from what? He came in human likeness and appearance, from what former heavenly state of existence?

Hebrews 1:2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

This comes up many times in the Gospels. Jesus was there when all was created, even Adam. So how could Jesus in His nature purely exist as a human? He must have taken up a human nature for a time, but had existed always in another heavenly nature? Correct? How does this all not constitute as proof that Jesus was a preexistent being? I'm not understanding you.

Jesus came in human likeness, and emptied Himself taking on the body of a human servant. For a time He walked among the earth like us and experienced first-hand was being a human was like. This doesn't imply that it is impossible for Jesus to be God.

[Aineo]

So what you want us to believe is that Peter did not think the deity of Jesus was worth mentioning and proving to Jews who believed the Tanak where they are told God is not a man or the son of man and that Yehovah the only true God is their Father, which is what Jesus maintained throughout His time of this earth?

Put Philippians 2:6-7 in its full context and you will learn that Paul is teaching that Christians should humble themselves like Jesus did. In order to humble ourselves to become the servants of God as the Lord did we must empty ourselves of our pride and self-determination.

Your appeal to Hebrews 1:2 is just another example of taking Scripture out of context as well as translating Koine Greek in an attempt to establish the Trinity. The Greek word translated "universe" or "world" in this verse actually means "age". Also when you put verse 2 in context the author of Hebrews is teaching that in this current "age" God has spoken to us through His Son and then goes on to tell his readers that Jesus is the exact representation (not that Jesus is identical) of God.

There are more Scriptures that disprove your thesis (which can only be supported by taking Scripture out of context) that Jesus is a man like you and me. Jesus preexisted God's creation only in the mind of the Father as the Father's ultimate plan for the redemption of mankind.

[Superman]

Joh 6:38 - For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Aineo, I agree that Jesus is a exalted man, but what did Jesus mean when He said that He came down from Heaven, could this imply pre-existence?

Sincerely,
Superman

[Aineo]

Believer, you are putting a lot of emphasis on the word "form" in Philippians 2. The Greek word translated "form" is "morfee" (morphe), which in Koine Greek means "external appearance or station in life".

Jesus has the external appearance and life station of God since Jesus is God's agent (Jesus was given all authority) just as Moses was God's agent. God told Moses He would make Moses to appear to be a god to Pharaoh. And Jesus is the prophet like Moses that was prophesied in Deuteronomy 18. Therefore Jesus who had the life station of being God's agent and was not born or sold into slavery emptied Himself and took on the life station of a bond servant.

Another Scripture used to try to prove the preexistence of the Son is Colossians 1:15:

15
15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.
NAS

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
DRV

5 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. NAB

The Koine translated "first-born" (firstborn) is "proototokos" and the Koine translation "creation" or "creature" is "ktisis".

It is generally agreed that the Septuagint was the most use edition of the Hebrew Scriptures in the first century. In the Septuagint Jacob is the "proototokos" and Ephraim is the "proototokos" even though Esau was Isaac's firstborn and Manasseh was Joseph's firstborn. So we see that "proototokos" can mean "first in position" or indicate "preeminence".

Now "ktisis" can mean "institution or ordinance" (1 Peter 2:13), "creation" (Romans 1:20), and something created (Romans 1:25). Now we know from other Scriptures that Jesus is the firstborn (proototoks) of the dead (Colossians 1:18) and that Jesus instituted (created) and mediates the New Covenant (Luke 22:20, 1 Corinthians 11:25, Hebrews 8:8, 8:13, 9:15, 12:24).

Another section of Scripture used to show the preexistence of the Lord is John 1:1-18. However how did first century Greeks and Jews understand "logos"? In 600 B.C. the Greek philosopher Heraclitus introduced the concept that "logos" is "the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe". This concept is identical to Jewish thought since to the Jews God's word as expressed in His law was created before God created the universe and was how God created the universe. Therefore just as your words exist with you and are you God's "logos" existed with God and was God. So what existed in the beginning was God's plan for the redemption of mankind and this plan became flesh and a visible image with the birth of Jesus once again showing that Jesus' preexistence was in the mind of God not a preexisting entity.

The deity of Jesus and the Trinity are the result of Greek philosophy and the pagan influences of men who did not grasp the significance of the Hebrew foundation of Christianity.

Superman, John 6:38 must be understood in light of Hebrew culture as well as other NT Scriptures. God told the Jews that if they brought the full tithe to the Temple He would “open the window of heaven and pour out blessings”. James wrote that every:

James 1:17
17 Every good thing bestowed and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow. NAS

Jesus is the gift of God to mankind and like God's blessings did not preexist as an "entity".

[Believer]

John 17:5
Now glorify me, Father, with you, with the glory that I had with you before the world began.

Scripure is clear, Aineo, that Jesus was a glorified being before the world began. Obviously Jesus wasn't an idea in God's mind, with verses like this in the Bible.

Also, Hebrew-speaking Christians also believe in the Trinity and Jesus's preexistence, so it's hard to believe all of this research of yours.

[Aineo]

What glory did the Son have with the Father? What Jesus did not say is He had the same glory as the Father thereby making Himself the Father's equal. Also to interpret John 17:5 to show the preexistence of the Son as part of a triune God totally ignores what Jesus prayed in vs. 3.

Also appealing to some who speak Hebrew is simply begging the question. The Pharisees understood Hebrew yet rejected their own Messiah. Jesus is clear in John 17:3 that there is only one true God who He addressed as Father.

However, what glory does the Son have that existed in the beginning with God? The predicted glory of the coming Messiah that is found throughout the Messianic prophesies, which foretell one who will be born of a woman, is a prophet like Moses, who will be God's anointed one, who would be rejected, suffer death on a tree, who God would not allow to suffer the corruption of the grave, and would reign from Jerusalem with the key of David. In other words a man like you and me. There is not a single Messianic prophecy that even hints God’s anointed is God. The glory the Son had with the Father is the glory of the predetermined plan for mankind’s redemption by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

The Trinity and the deity of Jesus the Christ are based on the traditions of men and depend on semantics and philosophies foreign to God's revealed truth.

[Superman]

Aineo, I did a google research on the pre-existence of the man Jesus and I came up with this commentary taken from a Greek Scholar of the bible, it reads as:

Joh 17:5 -
With thine own self (para seautōi). “By the side of thyself.” Jesus prays for full restoration to the pre-incarnate glory and fellowship (cf. Joh_1:1) enjoyed before the Incarnation (Joh_1:14). This is not just ideal pre-existence, but actual and conscious existence at the Father’s side (para soi, with thee) “which I had” (hēi eichon, imperfect active of echō, I used to have, with attraction of case of hēn to hēi because of doxēi), “before the world was” (pro tou ton kosmon einai), “before the being as to the world” (cf. Joh_17:24). It is small wonder that those who deny or reject the deity of Jesus Christ have trouble with the Johannine authorship of this book and with the genuineness of these words. But even Harnack admits that the words here and in Joh_17:24 are “undoubtedly the reflection of the certainty with which Jesus himself spoke” (What Is Christianity, Engl. Tr., p. 132). But Paul, as clearly as John, believes in the actual pre-existence and deity of Jesus Christ (Phi_2:5-11).

Now I am confused, can you please explain whats going on?

Sincerely,
Superman

[Aineo]

First of all Superman, our Forum Rules require any material quoted from online or from a book must include a link to the source and/or the full title of the source material. Second the preexistence of Jesus as a heavenly entity is an assumption that denies the truth of the balance of Scripture. Third, if Jesus existed in glory as a heavenly entity based on this one verse then we can argue that all who are in Christ also preexisted with God in the beginning.

Romans 9:23-24
23 And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. NAS

God has glory, men have glory with God, angels have glory with God. So what is the Biblical meaning of glory? Glory has three meanings depending on the context of the passage. God's glory is His moral power and righteousness, man's glory is the result of God's foreordained plan. The Lord's glory is how God honored His Son before He was born and exceeds man's glory. The Lord's glory preexisted creation as God's predetermined plan and is based on God's foreknowledge not only of the plan but the person who would be His instrument for the accomplishment of His plan.

[Believer]

One key event strongly supports the pre-existent Christ is the Transfiguration. Jesus appears to have transfigured into a glorified state. This glory that Jesus had does correlate with Godly glory rather than your human glory.

It's just unreal to believe that Abraham and Adam and Moses, etc are older than Jesus. Scripture doesn't support that concept. Scripture supports a preexistent, glorified Jesus. John 17:5 is very clear.

The Bible tells us in prophecy that the Lord Himself will teach us our ways. There are various other little verses that offer an interesting scene of God being with us. That's what Emmanuel means.

[Aineo]

The transfiguration does not prove preexistence, it can however prove preeminence. Also your interpretation of John 17:5 contradicts Jesus words in John 17:3 as well as Isaiah where Yehovah the Father says:

Isaiah 42:8
8 "I am the LORD, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images. NAS

Isaiah 48:11
11 "For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act;
For how can My name be profaned?
And My glory I will not give to another. NAS

The Bible tells us in prophecy that the Lord Himself will teach us our ways. There are various other little verses that offer an interesting scene of God being with us. That's what Emmanuel means.

And how does God teach us His ways? The answer is through His prophets. Do you understand this prophecy?

Deuteronomy 18:15-19
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. 16 This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' 17 "And the LORD said to me, 'They have spoken well. 18'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19'And it shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him. NAS

Jesus is Immanuel but that is a title not a description of the Lord's nature.

Jesus fulfilled this prophecy as He said:

John 7:16-17
16 Jesus therefore answered them, and said, "My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 "If any man is willing to do His will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it is of God, or whether I speak from Myself. NAS

John 17:7-8
7 "Now they have come to know that everything Thou hast given Me is from Thee; 8 for the words which Thou gavest Me I have given to them; and they received them, and truly understood that I came forth from Thee, and they believed that Thou didst send Me. NAS

You have not established the preexistence of the Son as part of a triune God. All you are doing is defending a tradition of men.

[Believer]

The transfiguration does not prove preexistence, it can however prove preeminence. Also your interpretation of John 17:5 contradicts Jesus words in John 17:3 as well as Isaiah where Yehovah the Father says:

In verse 17:3 Jesus still claims that He was sent, and in 17:5 tells us directly that the glory that Jesus will recieve was a state of glory that He had always existed in, before the world began. These verses don't contradict.

The glory that Jesus has is certainly Godly glory, Jesus is God.
You know the Gospels reveal to us that the Pharisees and Saducees despised Jesus and believed Jesus was calling Himself God when He speaks of His relationship with the Father. That was prophesized in Wisdom, a book only found in the Catholic Bible. Jesus as a preexistent being and God isn't some made up Greek-influenced junk that Aineo claims. The Son of God is glorified in Godly glory in early Jewish beliefs and in prophecies.

John 10:33
The Jews answered him, "We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God."

Wisdom 2:16
He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father.


John 8:24;58
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."
58 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM."

Jesus calls Himself God's name, a very revealing statement.
He also says He came before Abraham. Jesus's preexistence is supported throughout scripture.


Interestingly, Jesus speaks of Himself possessing a heavenly kingdom to the high preists.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, "My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom did belong to this world, my attendants (would) be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not here."

From the Bible we learn that:
Jesus was a preexistent being glorified in Godly glory far superior to the angels and had a heavenly kingdom. He is one in being with the Father, and He was there when all was made and before the world began. He emptied Himself and took the form of a human to fulfill the predetermined plan of God the Father as the man Jesus. Afterward, He went back to His rightful place at the right hand of the Father and we all know Him now and can rightfully worship and glorify Him. Every knee will bow to the Son of God.

This summary incorporates verses that you give, Aineo, and shows a broader picture of who Jesus is. You speak only of Jesus the man, that was only a part of Jesus's existence. For a time He came in human likeness and appearance.

[adampastor]

Aineo, I did a google research on the pre-existence of the man Jesus and I came up with this commentary taken from a Greek Scholar of the bible, it reads as:

Joh 17:5 -
With thine own self (para seautōi). “By the side of thyself.” Jesus prays for full restoration to the pre-incarnate glory and fellowship (cf. Joh_1:1) enjoyed before the Incarnation (Joh_1:14). This is not just ideal pre-existence, but actual and conscious existence at the Father’s side (para soi, with thee) “which I had” (hēi eichon, imperfect active of echō, I used to have, with attraction of case of hēn to hēi because of doxēi), “before the world was” (pro tou ton kosmon einai), “before the being as to the world” (cf. Joh_17:24). It is small wonder that those who deny or reject the deity of Jesus Christ have trouble with the Johannine authorship of this book and with the genuineness of these words. But even Harnack admits that the words here and in Joh_17:24 are “undoubtedly the reflection of the certainty with which Jesus himself spoke” (What Is Christianity, Engl. Tr., p. 132). But Paul, as clearly as John, believes in the actual pre-existence and deity of Jesus Christ (Phi_2:5-11).

Now I am confused, can you please explain whats going on?

Sincerely,
Superman

Sir, in answer to your question.
May I suggest the following article:

"Gabriel Was Not a Trinitarian: Recovering the Biblical Son of God"
by Anthony Buzzard.

http://www.mindspring.com/~anthonybuzzard/gabriel.htm

[Aineo]

John the Baptist was sent from God (John 1:6) so do you believe that John is also a god? In 1 Samuel 18 we read that an evil spirit was sent "from God" to rest on Saul and no one believes that evil spirit is a god. Your argument lacks logic.

Angels had glory with God before the Genesis 1 creation account but you don't view angels as gods. God's elect have glory that existed with God before creation but you don't view all those in Christ as gods. So once again your argument lacks logic.

God's covenant name YWHW actually means "I will be what I will be" since YWHW is 3rd person, not first person in Hebrew grammar. Also the way Trinitarians translated "egoo eimi" is John 8:58 differs from how all other Scriptures where this phrase is used in the NT. Now when you put John 8:58 in its full context Jesus told the Pharisees that Abraham rejoiced to see the Day of the Lord, which indicates that Abraham saw what God had predestined, which includes Jesus' victorious reign as God's anointed from Jerusalem.

As to your appeal to Wisdom, this is just another personal interpretation since Wisdom is praising God's wisdom, which is personified in the Lord (Proverbs 8).

Jesus also told Pilate that His kingdom in not of this "realm" or "world", but again this does not prove preexistence but preeminence, study Psalms 2. A king remains a king even when he is not within the geographical limits of his kingdom. Also when the Pharisees tried to interpret Jesus' words to mean He claimed to be God or equal to God Jesus was quick to correct them by referring to Himself as the Son of God. Now since Jesus did not sin, which means He did not lie, if He was God and denied this fact in plain language He lied. And before you try to claim that He was both the Son and God I think you need to review Abraham's deception when he convinced Sarah to deceive Pharaoh as recorded in Genesis 12.

Your response interprets Scripture it does not even try to understand Scripture, which goes against what Peter taught in 2 Peter:

2 Peter 1:12-21
12 Therefore, I shall always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them, and have been established in the truth which is present with you. 13 And I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder, 14 knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you may be able to call these things to mind. 16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, "This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased"-- 18 and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. 19 And so we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. NAS

What is missing from all NT Scriptures is the phrase "Lord God Jesus Christ".

When one studies Scripture to understand Scripture and not just defend a doctrine then God's truth comes through. Taking Scriptures out of context, mistranslating Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek words, and appealing to the traditions of men will always result in false doctrine.

Jesus preexisted in the mind of God as God's predetermined plan. He did not preexist as a divine being.

[Believer]

John the Baptist was sent from God (John 1:6) so do you believe that John is also a god? In 1 Samuel 18 we read that an evil spirit was sent "from God" to rest on Saul and no one believes that evil spirit is a god. Your argument lacks logic.

John the Baptist and the other prophets were sent BY God. Also, they never spoke of times when they existed in glory with God, like Jesus spoke of.

Angels had glory with God before the Genesis 1 creation account but you don't view angels as gods. God's elect have glory that existed with God before creation but you don't view all those in Christ as gods. So once again your argument lacks logic.

In the first chapter of Hebrews, Jesus is revealed as more powerful and higher then the angels. He has dominion over them. No angel does God call His Son, that's also from scripture.

God's covenant name YWHW actually means "I will be what I will be" since YWHW is 3rd person, not first person in Hebrew grammar. Also the way Trinitarians translated "egoo eimi" is John 8:58 differs from how all other Scriptures where this phrase is used in the NT. Now when you put John 8:58 in its full context Jesus told the Pharisees that Abraham rejoiced to see the Day of the Lord, which indicates that Abraham saw what God had predestined, which includes Jesus' victorious reign as God's anointed from Jerusalem.

John 8:24;58
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."
58 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM."

Jesus is plainly telling us, Aineo, that He is, was, and ever will be. He just IS. He is the Alpha and the Omega, which Christ also proclaims Himself in Revelations. You need to believe that, or you will die.
Jesus plainly tells us that He was there before Abraham was. Jesus means Himself, not an idea of Himself.

Jesus also told Pilate that His kingdom in not of this "realm" or "world", but again this does not prove preexistence but preeminence, study Psalms 2. A king remains a king even when he is not within the geographical limits of his kingdom. Also when the Pharisees tried to interpret Jesus' words to mean He claimed to be God or equal to God Jesus was quick to correct them by referring to Himself as the Son of God. Now since Jesus did not sin, which means He did not lie, if He was God and denied this fact in plain language He lied. And before you try to claim that He was both the Son and God I think you need to review Abraham's deception when he convinced Sarah to deceive Pharaoh as recorded in Genesis 12.

Jesus wouldn't have proclaimed Himself a king of a heavenly realm not of this world if that weren't the truth. He wants us to know that He was, is, and ever shall be and that He existed in power and glory with the Father before He came into this world, literally.

When one studies Scripture to understand Scripture and not just defend a doctrine then God's truth comes through. Taking Scriptures out of context, mistranslating Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek words, and appealing to the traditions of men will always result in false doctrine.

Jesus preexisted in the mind of God as God's predetermined plan. He did not preexist as a divine being.

My interpretations have been interpreted by so many different people over centuries. It's the truth and it's revealed to us in scripture. Your interpretation is what's not supported in scripture. The majority of people reading the Bible with an open heart and mind for the Truth are going to see what I see and believe what I believe. Jesus existing as a man is only a part of His story. You're not accepting all of who Christ is.

The events of Christ's life and His sacrifice for us were revealed in prophecies. All that happened was God's plan. Events and happenings were in God's mind. His Son fulfilled them because the Father AND the Son loved us. Jesus couldn't have genuinely loved us if Jesus himself was merely an idea in God's mind.

[Çåßæö†¿]

Aineo, I did a google research on the pre-existence of the man Jesus and I came up with this commentary taken from a Greek Scholar of the bible, it reads as:

The scholastic diminution of the scriptures bequeaths the divergment and corroboration of desideratum. We must see ideate the sacerdotalism on both ends.

Sir, in answer to your question.
May I suggest the following article:

"Gabriel Was Not a Trinitarian: Recovering the Biblical Son of God"
by Anthony Buzzard.

http://www.mindspring.com/~anthonybuzzard/gabriel.htm

Gabriel the dispatched emissary corroborates the elactriliousness of attested exactitude vis a vis the logos' parturiency.

In the first chapter of Hebrews, Jesus is revealed as more powerful and higher then the angels. He has dominion over them. No angel does God call His Son, that's also from scripture

Yes Believer, Jesus is not God! the logistical prevision and ratiocination machicolate by you does not ensue the monstranicity of the gospels.

John the Baptist was sent from God (John 1:6) so do you believe that John is also a god? In 1 Samuel 18 we read that an evil spirit was sent "from God" to rest on Saul and no one believes that evil spirit is a god. Your argument lacks logic.

Jesus is God, The pre-existence of John is indicant which presages the ejaculatory tautology of Christs chiromancious birth, thus the sustenation and abutment gives way to the gospelic rudimentary and principiuous, perpetual truth of Jesus' Deity.

Good Fortune....

[Aineo]

Believer are you telling me that those who translated the NAB are wrong in how they translated John 1:6 and 1 Samuel 18:10 that state men and an evil spirit were sent from not by God?

Revelation 1:8 does not tell us Jesus is the Alpha and Omega this verse records the words of the Lord God a designation used only for Yehovah (the Father) throughout Scripture.

What does Hebrews tell us about the Lord Jesus? God appointed Jesus heir of all things, Jesus was begotten, God told the angels to worship the Son, The Son has a God, Jesus is the representation of God nature (not that Jesus has God's nature, Jesus has a nature like ours, Jesus learned obedience through suffering, and etc. In other words Hebrews when taken as a whole does not establish the preexistence of the Son or that the Son is in fact God.

Your credibility is at stake unless you are willing to address what I post. Simply quoting one or two verses that you want to interpret to mean Jesus is God is simply a slavish defense of a tradition. Jesus is the "I am" of God since Jesus is the door, light, bread, and etc. However Jesus never said He is God. In fact when the Pharisees accused Him of claiming to be God He told them He is God's Son. Now did Jesus deceive the Pharisees? If He did then He sinned just as Abraham and Sarah sinned by deceiving Pharaoh when they told Pharaoh Sarah was Abraham's sister. Now before you point out that Sarah was Abraham's half-sister she was also his wife and to deny their marital status was deception.

Jesus' kingdom is a heavenly or spiritual kingdom and since God anointed Jesus as King just as God had Saul and David anointed king does not make Jesus God.

I have already addressed the glory Jesus had with the Father and to keep coming back to this is ludicrous until you address what Scripture tells us about the glory of all believers that existed with God in the beginning.

The majority of people reading the Bible with an open heart and mind for the Truth are going to see what I see and believe what I believe. Jesus existing as a man is only a part of His story. You're not accepting all of who Christ is.

Actually the reverse is true. When people read the Bible with an open mind and heart they can clearly see that God is one not three, that Jesus fulfilled the prophesies concerning a man not a god, and that the deity of Jesus and the Trinity are based on a tradition of men.

[Superman]

Aineo, I did a google research on the pre-existence of the man Jesus and I came up with this commentary taken from a Greek Scholar of the bible, it reads as:

The scholastic diminution of the scriptures bequeaths the divergment and corroboration of desideratum. We must see ideate the sacerdotalism on both ends.

Sir, in answer to your question.
May I suggest the following article:

"Gabriel Was Not a Trinitarian: Recovering the Biblical Son of God"
by Anthony Buzzard.

http://www.mindspring.com/~anthonybuzzard/gabriel.htm

Gabriel the dispatched emissary corroborates the elactriliousness of attested exactitude vis a vis the logos' parturiency.

In the first chapter of Hebrews, Jesus is revealed as more powerful and higher then the angels. He has dominion over them. No angel does God call His Son, that's also from scripture

Yes Believer, Jesus is not God! the logistical prevision and ratiocination machicolate by you does not ensue the monstranicity of the gospels.

John the Baptist was sent from God (John 1:6) so do you believe that John is also a god? In 1 Samuel 18 we read that an evil spirit was sent "from God" to rest on Saul and no one believes that evil spirit is a god. Your argument lacks logic.

Jesus is God, The pre-existence of John is indicant which presages the ejaculatory tautology of Christs chiromancious birth, thus the sustenation and abutment gives way to the gospelic rudimentary and principiuous, perpetual truth of Jesus' Deity.

Good Fortune....

Çåßæö†¿, I am not sure what your trying to say here, can you please elaborate?

Sincerely,
Superman

[Aineo]

Superman, Çåßæö†¿ seems to be trying to advocate the ecumenical movement. On the one hand he disagrees with Believer and then switches position to disagrees with me. This religious philosophy is from Hinduism where people worship the god or goddess they are most comfortable with while maintaining there is only one supreme god.

[Believer]

Believer are you telling me that those who translated the NAB are wrong in how they translated John 1:6 and 1 Samuel 18:10 that state men and an evil spirit were sent from not by God?

John was sent in the sense that he had a divine mission. Jesus was sent in this way too, I'm not saying that you're wrong in that sense. However, Jesus was also sent literally. No where does John or any other prophet speak of times when he was in the glory of God before he came here. Jesus is set aside from the other prophets, so says Hebrew 1:1. We need to treat Jesus differently than other people in the Bible. He's just a different case altogether. Jesus is described in ways that no mortal human could or ever had been described as.

An evil spirit was allowed to do something by God. God doesn't actually send evil forces. There are angels of death, however.

Revelation 1:8 does not tell us Jesus is the Alpha and Omega this verse records the words of the Lord God a designation used only for Yehovah (the Father) throughout Scripture.

Revelations 21:6
I (am) the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give a gift from the spring of life-giving water.

Who gives the life giving water? Jesus Christ! He refers to Himself as the Alpha and Omega.

What does Hebrews tell us about the Lord Jesus? God appointed Jesus heir of all things, Jesus was begotten, God told the angels to worship the Son, The Son has a God, Jesus is the representation of God nature (not that Jesus has God's nature, Jesus has a nature like ours, Jesus learned obedience through suffering, and etc. In other words Hebrews when taken as a whole does not establish the preexistence of the Son or that the Son is in fact God.

What Jesus is descibed as at times seems to indicate that He's more than a human being. Jesus as a man is only a part of Christ's life. You seem to want to fully emphasize Jesus as a human and that's it. He had a prior existence.
Hebews 1:8 seems to describe the Son as God, directly.

Hebrews 2:17-18 tells us that on coming to earth as a hauman, Jesus experiences what life was like from our perspective, including suffering and being tested by being exposed to the temptations of our world.

Your credibility is at stake unless you are willing to address what I post. Simply quoting one or two verses that you want to interpret to mean Jesus is God is simply a slavish defense of a tradition. Jesus is the "I am" of God since Jesus is the door, light, bread, and etc. However Jesus never said He is God. In fact when the Pharisees accused Him of claiming to be God He told them He is God's Son. Now did Jesus deceive the Pharisees? If He did then He sinned just as Abraham and Sarah sinned by deceiving Pharaoh when they told Pharaoh Sarah was Abraham's sister. Now before you point out that Sarah was Abraham's half-sister she was also his wife and to deny their marital status was deception.

I'm really trying to prove that Jesus is a preexistent being, because that goes aloing very well with Jesus existing as part of the Trinity. This part of the conversation I think is further supported in the above part where I mention Rev 21:6. Jesus just IS. He is, was, and ever will be.

Jesus' kingdom is a heavenly or spiritual kingdom and since God anointed Jesus as King just as God had Saul and David anointed king does not make Jesus God.

What was Jesus's spiritual kingdom that He spoke of? Sounds very much like this verse goes along with John 17:5 and Hebrews 1:1-5.


had to almost recapitulate what I said before not to be a parrot but because it is very important and very clear, and I just don't feel like you're being clear about the particular verse.

I have already addressed the glory Jesus had with the Father and to keep coming back to this is ludicrous until you address what Scripture tells us about the glory of all believers that existed with God in the beginning.

Romans 9:23-34, I believe, means that God made us that we may glorify Him. I don't interpret that passage as telling us our glory was with him from the beginning.
Jesus tells us something very clear and I just don't think you're understanding it. Jesus speaks of attaining a glorified state He had already existed in. How could He have existed in a state of being if he was not.

Actually the reverse is true. When people read the Bible with an open mind and heart they can clearly see that God is one not three, that Jesus fulfilled the prophesies concerning a man not a god, and that the deity of Jesus and the Trinity are based on a tradition of men.

To say the very least, Jesus as a preexistent being should be picked up very easily. Even JW's believe Jesus preexisted, but as the Michael the Archangel...which is a mystery to me. Also to say the very least, Jesus appears to be much more than a human being like you and I.

I brought up something interesting that came to mind, and even highlighted it in blue. I would value your opinion of it. I'll recapitulate it for you.

The events of Christ's life and His sacrifice for us were revealed in prophecies. All that happened was God's plan. Events and happenings were in God's mind. His Son fulfilled them because the Father AND the Son loved us. Jesus couldn't have genuinely loved us if Jesus himself was merely an idea in God's mind.

[Aineo]

I will start with your last paragraph, which denies the truth of what John wrote in 1 John 4:7-21. You can read the whole section for yourself but this one verse disproves your thesis:

1 John 4:19
19 We love, because He first loved us. NAS

God so loved the world He gave His only begotten (the Greek is mongenes) Son that whosoever believes on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

"Mongenes" means means "one of a kind" or "unique". Jesus was most definitely a "unique" human being because He did not have a human father, lived a sinless life, and although He was not born a slave humbled Himself to the level of a slave and accepted God's will as His own. Jesus not only could do what He as a human being He did what He did as a human being whose only desire and will was to do the will of God His Father and His God and our Father and our God (John 20:17).

Now as to Revelation 21:6, lets put that one verse in context.

Revelation 21:4-8
5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." 6 And He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 "He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
NAS

These are the words of the Father who sits on the throne, not the words of the Son who stands at His right-hand. No place in Scripture are we told Jesus is or ever will be our Father. Now before you quote what Jesus said in John 4:14 we must remember that all Jesus said was given to Him by the Father (John 12:50).

The preexistence of Jesus as a divine entity is based totally on the tradition of men.

Numbers 23:19
19 "God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
NAS

Jesus could do all He did because God the Father made it happen after the Holy Spirit descended and remained on Him after John baptized Him.

[Believer]

I will start with your last paragraph, which denies the truth of what John wrote in 1 John 4:7-21. You can read the whole section for yourself but this one verse disproves your thesis:

1 John 4:19
19 We love, because He first loved us. NAS

God so loved the world He gave His only begotten (the Greek is mongenes) Son that whosoever believes on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

I don't see how my last paragraph denies scripture, it's more of a question. Do you believe that Jesus Christ loved us?

"Mongenes" means means "one of a kind" or "unique". Jesus was most definitely a "unique" human being because He did not have a human father, lived a sinless life, and although He was not born a slave humbled Himself to the level of a slave and accepted God's will as His own. Jesus not only could do what He as a human being He did what He did as a human being whose only desire and will was to do the will of God His Father and His God and our Father and our God (John 20:17).

What does "through him all things were made", imply? This definitely refers to the Creation. How unique is Jesus as a human if He created all things even Adam. Maybe the "We" in Genesis is literal.

Jesus first empties Himself of His former preexistent glory, then He came in human likeness and appearance. The order of events is very important in Phillipians 2:7.
In fact, the preceding verse states "he was in the form of God", this was stated before Jesus emptied Himself and came in human likeness, implying preexistence.

These are the words of the Father who sits on the throne, not the words of the Son who stands at His right-hand. No place in Scripture are we told Jesus is or ever will be our Father. Now before you quote what Jesus said in John 4:14 we must remember that all Jesus said was given to Him by the Father (John 12:50).

Revelation 2:8
"To the angel of the church in Smyrna, 8 write this: " 'The first and the last, who once died but came to life, says this:

The first and last who once died but came back to life...this is Jesus Christ, with no doubt. The Father and Son are the Alpha and Omega. I knew there was a verse like this, I had to dig deeper to find it.

Jesus could do all He did because God the Father made it happen after the Holy Spirit descended and remained on Him after John baptized Him.

If Jesus were only a man, would it be just for Jesus to let people worship Him, and allow Thomas to call Him "My Lord and my God", or let people believe He was God? I don't think any of the prophets would have allowed their followers to harbour beliefs like that.

[Aineo]

Yes Jesus Christ loves us, but that was not your question. In the beginning Jesus was the predetermined plan for the redemption of mankind (Acts 2:23).

When Greeks took control of Christianity they substituted Greek philosophy for the Hebraic foundation of the apostles and the prophets. In the mind of the Jews God created His word (Torah) before He created all that is seen and unseen. The Torah existed in God's mind and God created all that is seen and unseen by His word (logos), which God then manifested in Jesus Christ when He became flesh.

Now put Philippians 2:7 in its full context:

Philippians 2:1-11
2:1 If therefore there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, 2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself; 4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. NAS

The Koine Greek word translated "form" is "morfee" or "morphe", which means "station in life" or "visible appearance". All mankind exists is the "form" of God since God "formed" man in His likeness. When you put verses 6 and 7 in context with the balance of what Paul was teaching these verses do not teach the preexistence of the Son they teach that we like Christ need to humble ourselves by taking on the "appearance" or "station in life" of a bond-servant.

Revelation 2:8 does not teach preexistence, it teaches that in God's plan Jesus is the first and last of that plan. Now in Hebrew society as well as other ancient cultures the oldest son had the same perogatives as his father. In Hebrew culture this is known as the "law of agency". When we study the Bible we learn that Jesus is God visible agent and as God's visible agent can and should receive worship. You appealed to Hebrews 1:1-5 in an earliet post so why ignore Hebrews 1:6

Hebrews 1:6
6 And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says,

" And let all the angels of God worship Him." NAS

Also why Jesus is worshipped can be found in:

Philippians 2:9-11
9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. NAS

God's predetermined plan was that all will bow at the name of Jesus to God's glory.

Now as to Thomas' statement. Since Jesus and His disciples spoke Aramaic not Greek we need to ask what Thomas said in Aramaic. There are several words in Hebrew and Aramaic that are translated "lord" and "god" in Greek. 'Adonay was used primarily for God, while 'adown was used for men. Elohiym, which means god also means judges, messengers, angels, and etc. Therefore in order to understand Thomas' statement we need to understand that Jesus is 'adown not 'adonay and that in the mind of the Jews elohiym does not always mean Yehovah. We know the Messiah is 'adown from Psalms 110:

Psalms 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at My right hand,
Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet."
NAS

The Hebrew translated "my Lord" is 'adown.

Just as God made Moses to be a god to Pharoah, Jesus is "god" to His apostles, since Jesus is God's agent in heaven and on earth.

[Superman]

Ok, this is really hard to understand, I want to comment on what you had said Aineo.

In the mind of the Jews God created His word (Torah) before He created all that is seen and unseen. The Torah existed in God's mind and God created all that is seen and unseen by His word (logos), which God then manifested in Jesus Christ when He became flesh.

You said that God created His word (logos), and in a previous post stated that the (logos) who is Christ existed as God's predetermined plan. If the Logos is Gods predetermined plan, wouldn't that present a contradiction since God is Omniscient and thus the (logos) or God's predetermined plan which is now Christ would have to have existed from all of Eternity. Unless God at one time did not know that He was going to create a (logos) of His word. But since He is omniscient, He must have always knew, in other words Christ (logos) which is God's predetermined plan must have always existed eternally since it is predetermined. So how can the predetermined plan (logos) be a creation?

Sincerely,
Superman

[Aineo]

Ephesians 1:3-12
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, 8 which He lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. NAS

All believers who are saved by (or through) grace through faith in Jesus Christ can be viewed as "preexisting" in God's mind. This is based on God's foreknowledge (Romans 8:28) or omniscience.

Peter said in Acts 2:

Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. NAS

Now all that God spoke (used words or logos) into existence by the words He used existed in the beginning with Him and express His ominiscience, which includes His predetermined plans. Jesus who was born of a woman in both space and time is the fulfillment of God's planned redemption of those who have faith in God and God's plan. Therefore Jesus preexisted in the mind of God not as an eternal divine entity.

[Superman]

I read somewhere in the bible that the word (logos) is God and that the (logos) was made flesh, does this mean that God was made flesh? And if not, what does this mean?

Sincerely,
Superman

[Aineo]

You are referring to the prologue of John's Gospel. You can find this is John 1:1-18. Trinitarians maintain that when John wrote:

John 1:1-5
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
NAS

John 1:14

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. NAS

That John is teaching a preexistent divine entity that is the Son. However, this denies how both 1st century Jews and Greeks understood "logos" in Greek and "memra" in Hebrew. A Greek philosopher name Heraclitus first developed the Greek philosophical understanding of "logos" in about 600 B.C. Hericlitus defined "logos" as the divine reason or plan, which coordinates a changing universe. This philosophical reasoning agrees with how the Hebrew's reasoning concerning God's "memra" (word), an understanding that is found in the Mishna and the Targums, which are Jewish commentaries on God's word.

As a Jew Peter understood this, which is why he told the Jews that the Man Jesus is God's predetermined plan based on His foreknowledge.

[Believer]

Yes Jesus Christ loves us, but that was not your question. In the beginning Jesus was the predetermined plan for the redemption of mankind (Acts 2:23).

When Greeks took control of Christianity they substituted Greek philosophy for the Hebraic foundation of the apostles and the prophets. In the mind of the Jews God created His word (Torah) before He created all that is seen and unseen. The Torah existed in God's mind and God created all that is seen and unseen by His word (logos), which God then manifested in Jesus Christ when He became flesh.

What I believe, sir, comes from the Bible, not Greek philosophy.
I agree that God knows all things, and knew what would happen before all was created.

The Koine Greek word translated "form" is "morfee" or "morphe", which means "station in life" or "visible appearance". All mankind exists is the "form" of God since God "formed" man in His likeness. When you put verses 6 and 7 in context with the balance of what Paul was teaching these verses do not teach the preexistence of the Son they teach that we like Christ need to humble ourselves by taking on the "appearance" or "station in life" of a bond-servant.

The order of things stated in these two verses, I believe, are on purpose.
Jesus emptied Himself and came to earth as a human being. You're analysis lacks depth. You don't seem to make the connection between Jesus's description as existing in the form of God BEFORE He came into this world. This passage is very indicative of a preexistent Christ.

John 3:13
No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.

John 6:33;51;62
For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

These support Jesus's preexistence, also. They support the age-old interpretation of Phillipians 2. Really, how can you not believe Jesus is a preexistent being? He tells us that He is. He tells us that He came down from Heaven. He tells us that He will ascend to where He was before, that's so self-explanatory!

Revelation 2:8 does not teach preexistence, it teaches that in God's plan Jesus is the first and last of that plan. Now in Hebrew society as well as other ancient cultures the oldest son had the same perogatives as his father. In Hebrew culture this is known as the "law of agency". When we study the Bible we learn that Jesus is God visible agent and as God's visible agent can and should receive worship. You appealed to Hebrews 1:1-5 in an earliet post so why ignore Hebrews 1:6

The verse is very short and leaves almost no room to elaborate on. All it says, basically, is that Jesus is the first and last. It can be used to support Jesus's preexistence. If you want to place so much elaboration on it, it may mean other things.

[Believer]

That John is teaching a preexistent divine entity that is the Son. However, this denies how both 1st century Jews and Greeks understood "logos" in Greek and "memra" in Hebrew. A Greek philosopher name Heraclitus first developed the Greek philosophical understanding of "logos" in about 600 B.C. Hericlitus defined "logos" as the divine reason or plan, which coordinates a changing universe. This philosophical reasoning agrees with how the Hebrew's reasoning concerning God's "memra" (word), an understanding that is found in the Mishna and the Targums, which are Jewish commentaries on God's word.

The majority of verses that support a preexistent Christ do come from John. So why can't you just believe the Gospels? John was an inspired writer of the fourth Gospel and some letters. It was destined by God, ultimately, that his gospel was to be in the Bible.

Peter spoke of Jesus as a man. He didn't elaborate at all on who Jesus was before He came into the world. Peter wanted to emphasize Christ's suffering, death, and ressurection and the salvation of all to the people. Using this passage in Acts to prove without a doubt that Jesus was only a man is the wrong way to go about it.

[Aineo]

Why do you have to interpret John and other Scriptures instead of taking what is written at face value? For instance John also records:

John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. NAS

Jesus never said He is God the Son, Jesus maintains He is the Son of God. So why don't you believe Jesus?

[webmaster]

What I believe, sir, comes from the Bible, not Greek philosophy. I agree that God knows all things, and knew what would happen before all was created.

Some of the "words" used in the NT does come from Greek philosophy?

It was written in Greek!

[Aineo]

Believer, you really need to study the history of your faith. Clement and Origen were a moving force in the development of the Trinity as well as the way Catholicism interprets Scripture, and the fact is Catholicism/Orthodoxy introduced interpreting Scipture via Greek philosophical principles and that includes the Trinity.

Around A.D. 200, Clement of Alexandria (a Church Father, c. 150-215) taught that just as God gave the Law to the Jews, so he gave philosophy to the Greeks--as an instrument to lead them to Christ. God’s eternal Word (Logos) was the source of both. Clement believed the truth was to be found in Scripture, but sometimes it was hidden, and could only be discovered through allegorical interpretation. Clement did insist, however, that the Scriptures had a literal, historical sense--a primary meaning--that had to be respected. But allegorical reading could find further, "spiritual" meanings containing universal and eternal truths, an idea reflecting Plato.

Clement’s idea of God as transcendent, beyond all knowledge or definition, is also Platonic, although his Christian faith affirmed God’s Word (Logos), the source of all creation and all knowledge, especially the knowledge of God. The Logos was incarnate in Jesus, the Son of God. The Holy Spirit functioned to attract the believer to God, to seek true knowledge. Such knowledge was the true gnosis, characterized by faith, not to be confused with the false gnosis of the heretics, which was incomplete because it was not grounded in knowledge of the Scriptures.

Clement left Alexandria during the persecutions of Emperor Septimius Severus [left], and not much is known of him then except that he died about a dozen years later. His teaching and theological work was given to the young scholar Origen (185-254), who presided over the Alexandrian school for the next thirty years. Origen’s father was martyred under Severus, and his mother hid the youth’s clothes to keep him from joining the martyrs.

Origen’s writings were some of the most influential in the early church. He developed more fully Philo’s and Clement’s ideas of allegorical interpretation, understanding three levels of interpretation within a text that corresponded to three aspects of the human being. Literal, moral, and spiritual meanings corresponded to the body, soul, and spirit, in ascending order of importance. The literal meaning of the historical events was the least important for the Christian, just as the body was less important than the soul or spirit (two different things, psyche and pneuma, in Greek). More important were the underlying meanings which could only be perceived allegorically. Even Jesus was less important as a historical figure than as the mystery of Christ present to believers in the church and the sacraments.

http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/alexandria.stm

Now in order to see the preexistence of Jesus in Philippians 2 you have to read something into what Paul wrote and interpret what Paul wrote as allegory instead of accepting the plain language meaning of what Paul wrote.

[Believer]

You really haven't tackled my last thread. Some verses in John support the age-old interpretation of Phillipians 2. So John backs up what Paul said. Jesus came down from Heaven, and ascended to where He was before. Jesus came down from Heaven and took human likeness. He emptied Himself of this divine state of Godly glory and took the appearance and likeness of man.

I believe Jesus when He tells us He is a preexistent being that was always. That, my friend, is one big key that Jesus is God. He is higher than the angels, eternal, and preexisted men so obviously in His nature wasn't a human being or an angel. He later adopted human nature for a duration. Statments like "I and the Father are one" and "the very imprint of his being, and who sustains all things by his mighty word" start making sense and act as glue for the jigsaw pieces, which the overall picture is core Christian Christology that Catholics, Orthodox, and most Protestants all believe.

That John is teaching a preexistent divine entity that is the Son

You even admit this. John isn't enough, apparently. Maybe you can elaborate on why that is.

[Aineo]

By interpreting and not understanding those Scriptures in John that you claim support the deity of Jesus you contradict all the Scriptures that tell us God is one not three. And although the NT was written in Greek it was written by Jews who did not believe in or teach a triune God. Also quoting one sentence I posted that was taken out of context is the last resort of a person who is loosing a debate and is nothing more than an attempt to deceive.

Your interpretation of Philippians has been debunked by the context of the verses and by what the Koine Greek words mean, therefore by continuing to insist that an interpretation overrides word usage, context of those two verses, and the balance of Scripture you are demonstrating that the traditions of men are more important to you than God's word.

Now you appeal to John's Gospel to support the Lord's preexistence as God. By doing so you are trying to prove the Lord lied in this verse:

John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. NAS

You are also trying to prove Paul is a liar since Paul wrote:

1 Corinthians 8:1-6
8:1 Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. 2 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him. 4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. NAS

Now you can interpret Scripture until the Lord comes again in your desire to believe men not God, however Jesus said the eternal life is to believe in the one true God and Jesus Christ who He sent. Jesus did not say that eternal life is to believe in the one true God and God the Son.

[Believer]

By interpreting and not understanding those Scriptures in John that you claim support the deity of Jesus you contradict all the Scriptures that tell us God is one not three. And although the NT was written in Greek it was written by Jews who did not believe in or teach a triune God. Also quoting one sentence I posted that was taken out of context is the last resort of a person who is loosing a debate and is nothing more than an attempt to deceive.

Your interpretation of Philippians has been debunked by the context of the verses and by what the Koine Greek words mean, therefore by continuing to insist that an interpretation overrides word usage, context of those two verses, and the balance of Scripture you are demonstrating that the traditions of men are more important to you than God's word.

Interesting how these same Jews believed Jesus put Himself equal to God with his statments.
I have explained Phillipians 2 very well, so I was hoping other people on this forum would jump into this discussion to let us know how they feel. Superman strongly questions your possitions now, Aineo.
Verses in John support how many others and myself view Phillipians 2.

I ask only for your opinions on these two verses.

John 6:62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

John 3:13
No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.

It just seems very blatant to me that Jesus existed as a being before He came into this world. This thread is focusing on Jesus's preexistence. The "is Jesus God" argument has been done many times already. This is alittle different.

Now you appeal to John's Gospel to support the Lord's preexistence as God. By doing so you are trying to prove the Lord lied in this verse:Quote:
John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. NAS

Now you can interpret Scripture until the Lord comes again in your desire to believe men not God, however Jesus said the eternal life is to believe in the one true God and Jesus Christ who He sent. Jesus did not say that eternal life is to believe in the one true God and God the Son.

You're trying to shift the argument totally away from is Jesus a preexistent being, and make it soley and argument for Jesus's Godhood. These two passages have no relations for Jesus being or not being a preexistent being. Aineo, if Jesus preexisted all things including creation then He cannot and is not soley human in nature. Even JW's have to account for that. So I mean, you haven't defeated me in this debate.
Jesus is the first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega. Him, and the Father, and the Holy Spirit.

Talking about Greek-influenced nonsense, Making the preexistent Jesus Christ a Platonic ideal is definitely more Hellenistic that saying Jesus is preexistent and eternal, which I fail to see a real relationship with that and Hellenism.

[Aineo]

The Jews who accused Jesus of making Himself equal with God are not the same Jews who wrote the Bible. This line of thinking is like blaming all Arabs for 9/11 since the terrorists who highjacked those 4 planes were Ababs. This is just another of your attempts to obfuscate God's truth.

You have interpreted Philippians by taking two verses out of context you have not explained Philippians.

Now since the Jewish concept of "memra" preceeded Heraclitus' concept of logos your statement that I am appealing to Platonism is also another attempt to avoid Biblical truth.

Now before I allow you to avoid responding to questions by answering more of your questions did Jesus and Paul lie?

[Believer]

The Jews who accused Jesus of making Himself equal with God are not the same Jews who wrote the Bible. This line of thinking is like blaming all Arabs for 9/11 since the terrorists who highjacked those 4 planes were Ababs. This is just another of your attempts to obfuscate God's truth.

You have interpreted Philippians by taking two verses out of context you have not explained Philippians.

Now since the Jewish concept of "memra" preceeded Heraclitus' concept of logos your statement that I am appealing to Platonism is also another attempt to avoid Biblical truth.

Now before I allow you to avoid responding to questions by answering more of your questions did Jesus and Paul lie?

Reread my previous responses here. I have explained what Phillipians 2 means many times. If you're not satisfied after doing that, then I'll do that for you.

First of all, the verse John 17:3, according to the NAB commentary:
4 [3] This verse was clearly added in the editing of the gospel as a reflection on the preceding verse; Jesus nowhere else refers to himself as Jesus Christ.
This verse might not even be the words of Jesus. But anyways, I believe this verse means, if Jesus did say this, that the Father is the Godhead and alone wills things as God, and we are to understand this about Him. Nothing is with out His desire, nothing happens without His consent. Understand, sir, that my argument here is that Jesus is a preexistent being and far older than humans by an eternity. Jesus in no way says He is not God by this statment, if you understand it.

Paul equates the Father and the Son as the same being, if you read that passage. You're just not seeing that Jesus is one in being with the Father, having this God nature and being an eternal, preexistent being.

What are these verses saying?

John 6:62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

John 3:13
No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man

[Aineo]

Your explanation of the two verses in Philippians 2 ignores not only the context of those verses it also ignores what the Greek words mean.

Your NAB explanation is ludicrous especially from a church that claims to have given Christendom the NT. The DRV was translated from the Latin Vulgate and contains that verse so if it was added at some point in time it was added by Jerome or some other minion of the Catholic Church in the 4th century. Also read Mark 4:18-21 where Jesus told the Jews He fulfilled the prophesy concerning God's anointed.

In order to establish the preexistence of Jesus one must rip Scripture apart. However, when we put those Scriptures back into their full Biblical context as well as the cultural background of those God gave the responsibility to receive and transmit His word these Scriptures do not support the preexistence of Jesus. Now as to those two verses you ripped out of context.

John 3:13 reads:
John 3:13
13 "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man. NAS

How did Jews understand “descended from heaven”? Jews viewed God’s blessings as “descending from heaven” or “came down from heaven” or “is from above”. James expresses this Hebrew concept when he wrote:

James 1:17
17 Every good thing bestowed and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow. NAS

James 3:15
15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. NAS

Jesus is the predicted prophet born of a woman who existed as God’s predetermined plan and is God’s gift to mankind.

In order to understand the exchanges between the Jews and Jesus we must understand Hebrew thought processes as well as have a working knowledge of the OT, especially the Messianic prophesies. Jesus favorite title for Himself was “Son of Man”.

Daniel 7:13-14

13 "I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 "And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed. NAS

Now as to John 6:62, the past tense is often used to indicate a future event has already been accomplished. For instance in Psalm 110:1 David views the Messiah as already sitting at the right-hand of the Father, in Revelation John views the future as happening as he watched. What prophets viewed in visions, which “came down” or “descended from above” Jesus was totally aware of and explained not because He preexisted but because of His unique relationship with the Father who bestowed on Jesus all the wisdom, authority, and knowledge He needed to accomplish His assigned task on this earth and in His future reign as the King of kings. All you have done is draw attention to the fact that Jesus did not preexist as a divine entity but as God's predetermined plan.

Now it is your turn to come up with an honest answer for what Jesus said in John 17:3 (as well as John 5:44) and what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 8:6. Also by insisting your interpretation is correct you label Peter a liar since in his Acts 2 sermon he plainly teaches Jesus is a man and God's predetermined plan.

[Superman]

Yes, it seems to come to gether now! Jesus saying that he came down from heaven is essentially him telling the jews that he is God's perfect gift, now I see, I agree!

Sincerely,
Superman

[Aineo]

Yes, it seems to come to gether now! Jesus saying that he came down from heaven is essentially him telling the jews that he is God's perfect gift, now I see, I agree!

Sincerely,
Superman

It takes a bit of work but when we search the Scriptures the Bible explains the Bible. The first Messianic prophesy is found in Genesis 3 where God tells Satan (in the form of a serpent) that a man (not God) born of a woman will bruise his head.

[Believer]

Verses can be interpreted in different ways, Aineo. Those verses are obvious to me and many others. My whole argument on this thread has been consistent and well supported by scripture. I've explain Phillipians 2 already. I interpreted it with support of the Bible the same way that Christians have throughout the ages, and answered your questions. If you disagree with me, then okay. What do you think about this verse?

Hebrews 2:
1 In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
2 in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

Further support that Jesus is a preexistent being. A mere predetermiend plan couldn't have created the universe.
In the NT, Jesus tells us that He, Himself as a being, came down from Heaven and that He is the bread of Life. Is He really an idea? Jesus tells us that He will go back to a state of Glory that He was in. Jesus as a man was glorified in the sense that we all know Him and worship Him now. He was hidden from us before He fulilled the prophecy.

You are the only one ripping scripture apart, to disprove what is so evident. I have only put the pieces together, to form a coherent, supported belief that Jesus is a preexistent being.
Saying that Jesus is our perfect gift also doesn't imply that He didn't as an entity descend from Heaven. Because verses just keep on supporting Jesus as a preexistent being.

John 3:31-32
The one who comes from above is above all. The one who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of earthly things. But the one who comes from heaven (is above all).
32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony.

Jesus was a preexistent being who sees and hears what was going on in Heaven, and has intimately knows the Father and all things heavenly. I'm sorry, but your idea that Jesus was merely a predetermined plan just ain't supported. All that was is predetermiend by God, I'm not denying that, but there's alot more too the whole picture of Jesus.

[Heaven Bound]

Aineo,

Are you saying that Jesus Christ isn't God?

I've heard many different views, I'd like to hear yours.

Thank you.

[Aineo]

Believer, your explanation of Philippians 2:5ff is, as you posted an interpretation of those verses that deny the context of the verses as well as the meaning of Koine Greek words. As I posted earlier the Koine Greek word translated "form" is "morphe", which in the Koine meant "station in life". Kenneth S. Wuest, himself a Trinitarian explains the Koine usage in his book The Practical Use of the Greek New Testament, p. 84. Now, with this understanding of "morphe" we can discern that Paul is teaching that we like the Lord should humble ourselves before the only true God the Father.

Also as I posted, to the Jews all good gifts are from above, which explains Jesus words in the context of Scripture as well as Hebrew thought. You maintain that how 4th century Greek men interpreted the word of God takes precedence over and trumps God's own words when He said:

Deuteronomy 6:4
4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! NAS

Isaiah 42:8
8 "I am the LORD, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images.
NAS

Jeremiah 3:19

19 "Then I said,

'How I would set you among My sons,
And give you a pleasant land,
The most beautiful inheritance of the nations!'
And I said, 'You shall call Me, My Father,
And not turn away from following Me.' NAS

This is reiterated in the NT by the Lord as well as by Paul:[/quote]John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.
NAS

Romans 16:25-27

25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen. NAS

Galatians 3:20
20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. NAS[/quote]The above is just a sampling of the fact the Father is referred to as the only true and wise God who anointed Jesus as our Prince and Savior.

How can Jesus say what He said in John 3? The same way Paul and John wrote what was revealed to them by the Lord and by God Himself. David, in Psalms 110 speaks of future events and with supernatural knowledge of events yet future. Now since Jesus is God's predetermined plan (logos in Greek, memra in Hebrew), and God spoke all that exists into existence we can understand that it was God's thoughts, which included His predetermined plan created the universe.

Also, Jesus is the prophet foretold by Moses when he said:

Deuteronomy 18:15-19
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. 16 This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' 17 "And the LORD said to me, 'They have spoken well. 18'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19'And it shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him. NAS

God is not a prophet like Moses.

You say I am ripping the Bible apart when in fact I am letting the Bible explain the Bible not ripping select verses out of context in an attempt to prove that Jesus is God. You appeal to interpretations while ignoring what Peter wrote concerning God's word:

2 nd Peter 1:12-21

12 Therefore, I shall always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them, and have been established in the truth which is present with you. 13 And I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder, 14 knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you may be able to call these things to mind. 16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, "This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased"-- 18 and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. 19 And so we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. NAS

There is no teachings found in Scripture that ever refer to the Son as "God the Son". This title is a clever rearrangement of the actual words inspired by the Holy Spirit. This is like Satan's deception of Eve when he subtely reworded what God said. What started as a false teaching was reinforced with excommunication and death by men who by their own actions demonstrated they were not led by the Spirit but by pagan philosophies adopted from their pagan cultures.

2nd Timothy 2:15
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.
NAS

Timothy did not have access to future rhetoric that labels Peter, Paul, John, and even the Lord as liars. There is not a single verifiable Scripture that teaches God is three not one. Paul praised the Bereans for searching the Scriptures daily to see if what he taught was true. No since you cannot find the Trinity in the OT why would Paul praise people who checked out Paul's teaching in the only Scriptures available to them? And before you appeal to the use of plural pronouns in reference to God we must understand the use of plurals of majesty, which is how the Hebrews understand the use of those few instances where God says "we", "us", and "our".

Heaven Bound, I think the above makes my position clear and why I now reject the Trinity as a valid doctrine.

[Heaven Bound]

Hi Aineo, and since you have been so busy with the otehr posts I thank you for replying back to mine.

Heaven Bound, I think the above makes my position clear and why I now reject the Trinity as a valid doctrine.

You reject the Trinity?... The Father,Son and Holy Spirit? Then your Atheist?....

How do you feel about this verses??

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2 Timothy 3:16.

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1 Timothy 3:16.

God is not a prophet like Moses

.

I agree with the above because God is All Knowing....

There is no teachings found in Scripture that ever refer to the Son as "God the Son".

"And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. " Matthew 16:16.

responding to your quote above:
Really, are you sure?? .... hmmmmm.....

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

Who did God give? His only begotten Son.

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." 1 John 5:7.


"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." John 1:14.


If Jesus is not the son of God, then the above scripture is a lie, and I for 1 refuse to believe that.

"The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;" Mark 1:1.


Aineo, If Chirst is not the son of God, then how will we get to heaven?

We would have to be 100 % righteous day and night in order to make it to heaven and how many would make it? None. because :


"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23.

Heaven Bound

[Aineo]

Great way to introduce yourself to this board Heaven Bound, which is labeling someone an atheist because they disagree with you. Also by posting I am an atheist you expose your ignorance of the definition of the word you used.

Now, unless you are willing to explain those verses that disagree with the Trinity and disprove the Trinity I guess I could label you an idol worshipper who believes in 3 gods not the one true God. Also, I am getting a bit tired of professed Christians who refuse to address Scriptures that contradict the Trinity by throwing out more Scriptures they think prove their point. You see Heaven Bound when you quote 2 Timothy 3:16 but do not practice this verse you expose the fact you do not believe what Paul wrote. Also Peter did not say to the Lord you are God the Son, he said you are Christ (which means anointed one) the son of the living God.

Now Heaven Bound what makes you think I reject Jesus is the Son of God when this thread deals with Believer trying to prove that Jesus is God?

[Heaven Bound]

Great way to introduce yourself to this board Heaven Bound, which is labeling someone an atheist because they disagree with you. Also by posting I am an atheist you expose your ignorance of the definition of the word you used.

HB: No, lableing has nothing to do with it, I apologize for calling you an atheist, but......
Have you looked up the word atheist?
Function: noun
: one who believes that there is no deity

You said that you don't believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God,right?.... then you are breakng the deity from your heart. the deity is 3 in 1 and they are all the same but work differently. I gave you scripture that proves the deity is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

Now, unless you are willing to explain those verses that disagree with the Trinity and disprove the Trinity I guess I could label you an idol worshipper who believes in 3 gods not the one true God...

HB: Again, Aineo.. you don't know me. Do you go to church Aineo? if so, how does your preacher feel about your beliefs? And are you talking about the scriptures that you posted earlier to {Believer} or the ones that I had posted in referance to the Trinity being true? the ones I had posted are clear.

Also, I am getting a bit tired of professed Christians who refuse to address Scriptures that contradict the Trinity by throwing out more Scriptures they think prove their point.

HB: Remember Aineo, You said it.

You see Heaven Bound when you quote 2 Timothy 3:16 but do not practice this verse you expose the fact you do not believe what Paul wrote.

HB: If theres 1 thingin this world that I must pray for , its people turning their face away from their own problems making it out to be other peoples problems. {denial} .....Fact is you don't know what I believe, Its you that reject Jesus as Gods Son, you seem to be getting offended by all these post that you seem to feel the need t lash out on some. true or not?

Also Peter did not say to the Lord you are God the Son, he said you are Christ (which means anointed one) the son of the living God.
HB: What bible are you reading this from Aineo?

Now Heaven Bound what makes you think I reject Jesus is the Son of God when this thread deals with Believer trying to prove that Jesus is God?
HB: Because Jesus Christ is a part of God. He is God the Son, according to Scripture.

Aineo you seem to be a nice person, and I refuse to fight with you about something that is so clear in Gods Word. you take care and I'll be praying for you.

I know for fact that you have been known to kick a lot of Christians off of this website and I just might be number 7,777 . that you boot. we all can't be wrong Aineo.

Anyhow, I will say this and not bother you anylonger......

May God show you peace,His Love, His Comfort and His Way,
God Bless you Aineo.
HB

[Aineo]

First I believe there is but one God the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6), therefore I do not reject deity.

There is not a Unitarian Church where I live, so no I no longer attend a local congregation, however if I did then my pastor would teach the Bible not manmade traditions as God's truth.

The Scriptures you posted do not prove the Trinity and I was referring to the plethora of Scriptures that plainly state there is but one true and wise God the Father. However, the many I have posted in response to Believer are a good place to start.

As to lashing out, it is simple courtesy to respond to questions posed by anyone who rejects your interpretation of Scripture and so far on 4 message boards not a single Trinitarian has been able to disprove there is but one God the Father.

I know you believe in the Trinity as defined by the First Council of Nicea in 325 and refined by the Council of Constantinope in 381. I also know that even a cursory reading of Paul's epistles will show Paul was not a Trinitarian, therefore by quoting Paul yet rejecting what Paul wrote demonstrates you do not really believe 2 Timothy 3:16.

Another aspect of this debate is that when Scripture is quoted such as Peter saying "you are the Christ the son of the living God" instead of words to the effect that Jesus is God the Son, they run away.

Now if you want to engage in respectful and courteous diaglogue that is fine but to violate our Forum Rules with your second post indicates that you are not interested in the search for God's truth. Now what Forum
Rule am I referring to?

7. No “I’m a better person than you are”. Our members run the gambit from people of faith to atheists. Keep this is mind and refrain from lifting yourself above all others in knowledge, value, orthodoxy, etc. For our Christian members remember there are many faiths but only One Lord, your denomination, doctrine, or understanding of the Bible may not be universally accepted by others.

By labeling me an atheist you are in effect saying you are better than those who reject the Trinity as a valid Biblical doctrine.

As to what Bible I am using? I can prove my point with the KJ although I prefer to use either the NASB or the NJKV.

[Believer]

Aineo, you haven't addressed the verses I gave. I'll recap two points.

A mere predetermined plan couldn't have created the universe.
Jesus testified things to us that are heavenly that He knew and saw because He came from above.

The common interpretation of Phillipians 2 is supported elswhere in the NT, including many verses that I show you

[On My Way]

Hi Heaven Bound

Welcome to the forum You should do an intro thread for us

I have been following this thread from the beginning and I have never heard Aineo to reject that Jesus is the Son of God and I do not get where you find him saying this? Maybe you can explain this to me

....Fact is you don't know what I believe, Its you that reject Jesus as Gods Son, you seem to be getting offended by all these post that you seem to feel the need t lash out on some. true or not?

Easy there, take a breath, you seem to be offended now, and by the same token you do not seem to know what he believes yet you convict him of not believing something he believes, Aineo certainly does not need me to defend him as he is one of the most articulate people I have had the fortune of reading posts by.

Why not give him a chance and discuss the scripture that he has posted

A mere predetermined plan couldn't have created the universe.
Jesus testified things to us that are heavenly that He knew and saw because He came from above.

As quoted by Aineo above

Deuteronomy 18:15-19
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. 16 This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' 17 "And the LORD said to me, 'They have spoken well. 18'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19'And it shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him. NAS

Could not the part that I bolded explain what you just asked?

[Heaven Bound]

"By labeling me an atheist you are in effect saying you are better than those who reject the Trinity as a valid Biblical doctrine."

HB: As I recall I did apologize for calling you an atheist, but you clearly never studied the meaning of the word," atheist" ..... I refuse to apologize again.

You have your beliefs and I have mine, I will keep you in prayer Aineo.

[Aineo]

a·the·ist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-st)
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

atheist

adj : related to or characterized by or given to atheism; "atheist leanings" [syn: atheistic, atheistical] n : someone who denies the existence of god

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist

I don't see where I come close to fitting this definition, which is the same one you posted. So although you apologized for labeling me an atheist your insistence I don't know the meaning of the word denies the sincerity of your apology.

As to the Trinity I have posted more Biblical evidence against the Trinity that has been posted to support the Trinity.

Believer, since some Greek words can be translated more than one way and since Koine Greek and classical Greek are as different as American English and English as spoken in Great Britain your appeal to Philippians and other Scriptures can be and have been defeated.

Both Heaven Bound and you are appealing to traditions without questioning the source of the tradition or explaining those verses like John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, among a plethora of others that plainly state there is but one God the Father. There is absolutely no Biblical foundation for the Trinity when we bring every word that proceeds from the mouth of God into this discussion.

Now Believer since you have not posted anything to refute that that in Koine Greek "morphe" means "station in life" and not "same nature as" your argument lacks substance.

[Believer]

How can something be defeated if it's supported in many other places in scripture? The concept of Jesus coming down from heaven and leaving His glorified state and coming to earth as a man in the beginning of Phillipians 2 isn't so unique. There's alot of support for that in the Gospel of John and other places.

[Aineo]

The answer is easy, the interpretations of a select few Scriptures contradict emphatic statements found in Scripture like Peter's sermon in Acts 2 as well as 1 Peter 1:20.

1st Peter 1:20-21
20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. NAS

[Believer]

A few verses? That's objectionable.

I've explained that Peter in Acts 2 wanted to emphasize Jesus's life, death, and ressurection to the crowd. Peter simply didn't give this theological discussion, unlike the author of Hebrews. Sometimes different passages in scripture emphasize on different things, and all together they form a coherent and complete picture. That's probably my biggest argument.

Honestly, I don't see the passage from I Peter as a contradiction to the belief that Jesus was a preexistent being. He was a preexistent being and his purpose on earth was foreknown. The existence of Christ-related prophecies would immediately support that. So, why can't you accept both?

[webmaster]

A few verses? That's objectionable.

I've explained that Peter in Acts 2 wanted to emphasize Jesus's life, death, and ressurection to the crowd. Peter simply didn't give this theological discussion, unlike the author of Hebrews.

Think about this? Peter didn't tell the people the truth?

[Aineo]

You have interpreted Acts 2 to support your theology, what you have not shown is any Scriptures that plainly state God is three not one or that Jesus is God. On the other hand I have posted many OT and NT Scriptures that emphatically state God is one and that Jesus is a man.

[Believer]

Think about this? Peter didn't tell the people the truth?

Did I say that? Peter was very excited and full of the Spirit. He was fully aware now of Jesus's life, passion, death, and ressurection. He wanted to emphasize these things, webmaster. This makes sense, right?

[webmaster]

Think about this? Peter didn't tell the people the truth?

Did I say that? Peter was very excited and full of the Spirit. He was fully aware now of Jesus's life, passion, death, and ressurection. He wanted to emphasize these things, webmaster. This makes sense, right?

Yes this makes sense, he was full of the Holy Spirit and speaking the Truth!?

[Aineo]

I must echo webmaster's comment. Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit and so excited he failed to mention that Jesus is God, which should have been the most exciting news he had to share if it is true. After all if God had come bodily to earch and the died for the Jews what better sermon to preach? But instead Peter preached Jesus Christ the man who was prophesied by David had been crucified, and resurrected to God's right-hand.

[Believer]

You have interpreted Acts 2 to support your theology, what you have not shown is any Scriptures that plainly state God is three not one or that Jesus is God. On the other hand I have posted many OT and NT Scriptures that emphatically state God is one and that Jesus is a man.

To use passages such as the passage from I Peter, and Acts 2, as a proofs that Jesus isn't a preexistent being would indicate to many people a lack of understanding of scripture, because they don't contradict that claim.

The Bible never stated that abortion is wrong either, but it does claim that killing people wrongfully is wrong.
The Bible may not have a clause for the Trinity, but scripture is clear with us that Jesus is before all things and through Him all things were created. Paul goes a step further to say all living creatures and so on were created by Him. Jesus claims to be "I AM" and says that He was before Abraham.
John 1:18 tells us that Son is God. The Spirit proceeded from God and is one substance with God, the same goes for Jesus. Jesus is higher than the angels. So on, many more verses. The overall picture is clear.

Is the Greek being misinterpreted in all of these verses and passages? We have the oldest Gospels and Letters to date and their written in Koine Greek.The newest Bible translations based on these don't tell us a completely different story.

[Believer]

Yes this makes sense, he was full of the Holy Spirit and speaking the Truth!?

I must echo webmaster's comment. Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit and so excited he failed to mention that Jesus is God, which should have been the most exciting news he had to share if it is true. After all if God had come bodily to earch and the died for the Jews what better sermon to preach? But instead Peter preached Jesus Christ the man who was prophesied by David had been crucified, and resurrected to God's right-hand.

Again. Peter emphasized on Jesus the man, and of the awesome events that had just happened. Look in other places in scripture for more Christology.

[Aineo]

You are rationalizing what you want to believe. But that is what happens when traditions are elevated above Biblical truth. This is what Jesus took the Pharisees to task for doing.

There is not a single sound doctrine that is not found in plain language and the fact the Bible plainly states that there is but one true God the Father and that Jesus Christ is a man trumps your interpretations that can be defeated by understanding how first century Jews and Greeks understood "logos" and the true meaning of Koine Greek words.

[webmaster]

You have interpreted Acts 2 to support your theology, what you have not shown is any Scriptures that plainly state God is three not one or that Jesus is God. On the other hand I have posted many OT and NT Scriptures that emphatically state God is one and that Jesus is a man.

To use passages such as the passage from I Peter, and Acts 2, as a proofs that Jesus isn't a preexistent being would indicate to many people a lack of understanding of scripture, because they don't contradict that claim.

The Bible never stated that abortion is wrong either, but it does claim that killing people wrongfully is wrong.
The Bible may not have a clause for the Trinity, but scripture is clear with us that Jesus is before all things and through Him all things were created. Paul goes a step further to say all living creatures and so on were created by Him. Jesus claims to be "I AM" and says that He was before Abraham.
John 1:18 tells us that Son is God. The Spirit proceeded from God and is one substance with God, the same goes for Jesus. Jesus is higher than the angels. So on, many more verses. The overall picture is clear.

Is the Greek being misinterpreted in all of these verses and passages? We have the oldest Gospels and Letters to date and their written in Koine Greek.The newest Bible translations based on these don't tell us a completely different story.

Abortion?? The Scripture is clear on a lot of things. Even with just the Romans & Gentiles reading nothing but the scripture of Matthew it is wrong.

KJV Matthew 19:14-14
(14) But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Since they also practiced the same things! YES Abortion is not a new thing!

[webmaster]

Yes this makes sense, he was full of the Holy Spirit and speaking the Truth!?

Again. Peter emphasized on Jesus the man, and of the awesome events that had just happened. Look in other places in scripture for more Christology.

So Peter didn't tell the people the truth? The Holy Spirit who spoke thru him was?

[Guest]

So Peter didn't tell the people the truth? The Holy Spirit who spoke thru him was?

You guys are trying to squeeze blood from a turnip. Acts 2 isn't the place where Christ's Christology is discussed. To not go in detail on who Jesus was before He came into this world doesn't consitute as a lie. John is full of Christology, as are passages from Colossians and Hebrews and other places.

You are rationalizing what you want to believe. But that is what happens when traditions are elevated above Biblical truth. This is what Jesus took the Pharisees to task for doing.

There is not a single sound doctrine that is not found in plain language and the fact the Bible plainly states that there is but one true God the Father and that Jesus Christ is a man trumps your interpretations that can be defeated by understanding how first century Jews and Greeks understood "logos" and the true meaning of Koine Greek words.

How am I rationalizing? I'm not importing beliefs here, Aineo. Scripture reveals to us that Jesus actually came down from Heaven. He emptied Himself and came in human likeness, in our own appearance. Doesn't that language strike you? and you're trying to sneak away from the discussion of Jesus's preexistence. Jesus was there in the beginning, He is before all things. He is the First and the Last. The Father is the same way. Jesus and the Father are one. I can't emphasize enough that nothing is being "imported" here.

[Aineo]

To not go in detail on who Jesus was before He came into this world doesn't consitute as a lie.

The prophets are full of Christology if you take the time to read them and the prophets reveal that Jesus is not God.

Now I am not going to repost all the information found on the other threads in this forum that show John's use of "logos" does not show the preexistence of God and that the Koine translated "form" does not mean Jesus has God's nature since Philippians 2 has been covered on this thread.

As to how 4th century Greeks who introduced the concept of the Trinity into Christianity either ignored or rationalized Scripture that disproves the Trinity there is a thread dedicated to this discussion and you will find it here:

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=8204

[Believer]

John 6:51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."

Jesus is the living bread that came down from Heaven, how can that be made any more clearer? Jesus is a living being and came down from Heaven. Do you think it's some foreign idea that Jesus was preexistent? That is an inherently Christian belief and is integrated in scripture.

Jesus was there in the beginning, He is before all things. He is the First and the Last.

[Aineo]

So lets put vs. 51 in context, which includes the Lord's own explanation of His words.

John 6:60-65

60 Many therefore of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 "What then if you should behold the Son of Man ascending where He was before? 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father." NAS

The "bread" that can done from heaven is God's predetermined plan for the salvation of mankind. Bread is used throughout Scripture as a metaphor.

You are not advancing your cause by trying to prove that Jesus, Peter, John, and Paul lied. You have yet to show that Jesus existed as a preexistent divine entity by not explaining (with Scripture) why Jesus plainly said that the Father is the only true God if He is in fact God.

And before you appeal to the fact men worshipped Jesus you have to explain why men worshipped other men. The Greek and Hebrew words translated bowed down and worshipped are the same words. David bowed down (worshipped) to Saul, Nathan bowed down (worshipped) before David. These words indicate honoring a person of higher rank, a person of greater wisdom, and etc., they do not always apply to worshipping the only true God.

[Believer]

Honestly, I don't see a connection with your highlighted verse. The previous verse holds that Christ will return to heaven to a state He was in before He came to earth. When Jesus was taken up, did He become a thought in God's mind as he would have been "before"? That doesn't make sense.

The Living Bread, which is Jesus Christ, is bread that is alive. Nothing in the passage connotes that Jesus was a predetermined plan, or a "dead" thing essentially. Jesus is alive and was a living being before He entered this world. For a man so adamant about accepting God's truth, this should not be such a hassle for you to accept. Throughout Christian history, the argument whether or not Jesus was preexistent was never an issue.

You are not advancing your cause by trying to prove that Jesus, Peter, John, and Paul lied.

My arguments have been based solely on what Jesus, Paul, and John said! What you're accusing me of is a step beyond ridiculous.

You have yet to show that Jesus existed as a preexistent divine entity by not explaining (with Scripture) why Jesus plainly said that the Father is the only true God if He is in fact God

Although I believe that there's a connection, many including the Arians have not believed that since Jesus was preexistent, that such makes him God. So, that argument is a different but related one. Using this argument to prove Jesus wasn't preexistent doesn't make a strong case.

[Believer]

And before you appeal to the fact men worshipped Jesus you have to explain why men worshipped other men. The Greek and Hebrew words translated bowed down and worshipped are the same words. David bowed down (worshipped) to Saul, Nathan bowed down (worshipped) before David. These words indicate honoring a person of higher rank, a person of greater wisdom, and etc., they do not always apply to worshipping the only true God.

This is alittle unrelated, but it's a good point. Is it wrong for us to pray to Jesus Christ? Christians always pray to Jesus. We worship Jesus as God, basically. This must have had roots in scripture. These examples of worship should be genuine. When John fell to worship the Angel in Revelations, he quickly rebuked John. The humble Christ allowed people to fall and worship Him.

[Aineo]

Jesus taught in parables, which He then explained to His disciples. Your interpretation of John 6:51 contradicts Jesus' explanation found in John 6:60ff. Jesus is the living "word" as understood by the Jews, not as interpreted by Greeks who were influenced by their pagan backgrounds and Greek philosophy including Gnosticism.

We are to pray to the Father in the name of the Son.

John 16:23-24
23 "And in that day you will ask Me no question. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you shall ask the Father for anything, He will give it to you in My name. 24 "Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be made full. NAS

I will repeat, the only way you can establish the Trinity is to prove Jesus, Peter, John, Paul, and I will add God Himself lied.

[Believer]

John 16:28
I came from the Father and have come into the world. Now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."

Again, we see in John that Christ's preexistence and afterlife are of the same nature. Jesus couldn't have first been a thought in the Father's mind and then afterlife be a living being. He came into the world, literally, and left this world literally. "from" and "back" refer to the same thing.

I will repeat, the only way you can establish the Trinity is to prove Jesus, Peter, John, Paul, and I will add God Himself lied.

If Jesus was a preexistent being, then you'll have to change your positions in some way, not necessarily becoming a Trinitarian. But you must realize that once one gets to a certain point, the inevitable end is that Jesus is God. Recognizing His preexistence is a step to that point.

[Aineo]

The Son came from the Father because He was the Father's predetermined plan and also His real Father.

What is so telling about your responses Believer is you have yet to refute the emphatic statements in both the OT and the NT that there is but one true and wise God the Father. When are you going to change your position and cease calling God, Jesus, Peter, Paul, John, and the Holy Spirit liars based on the philsophical rhetoric of men who elevated Greek philosophy above the literal meaning of the Hebrew Scriptures?

[Believer]

The Son came from the Father because He was the Father's predetermined plan and also His real Father.

Jesus couldn't have first been a thought in the Father's mind and then afterlife be a living being. He came into the world, literally, and left this world literally. "from" and "back" refer to the same thing.

This case still holds. You have not refuted it.

What is so telling about your responses Believer is you have yet to refute the emphatic statements in both the OT and the NT that there is but one true and wise God the Father. When are you going to change your position and cease calling God, Jesus, Peter, Paul, John, and the Holy Spirit liars based on the philsophical rhetoric of men who elevated Greek philosophy above the literal meaning of the Hebrew Scriptures?

Understand that the Trinity isn't something that requires a statment. It is the revelation, that God is three persons. The Holy Spirit is a distinct personality and is of one substance with God, the Father. Jesus has the very imprint of the Father's being...the "being" here refers to Godhood. We are human beings. God is a "God being". Jesus was a human being only for a time, but always was a God being.

The argument here is that Jesus was a being before He came to this world. It's a very strong and well supported belief that people have always accepted. It was never an issue during the controversies of the early centuries of Christian history.

[Aineo]

When are you going to address those Scriptures that disprove the Trinity? If you are not willing to engage in a honest dialogue I will lock this thread. Now, I have given you a rational and reasonable explanation that defeats all your personal interpretations of Scripture and you have not responded to any of the Scriptures that defeat your private interpretations.

[Believer]

When are you going to address those Scriptures that disprove the Trinity?

I have addressed those verses. You should reread this thread. If, you are unsatisfied then you can ask me this again...in another thread. The purpose here is that Jesus is a preexistent being.

I will say that I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven. By the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.

You need to see the whole picture to understand who the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirt are.

If you are not willing to engage in a honest dialogue I will lock this thread.

I've engaged you fairly, you know that. That's a silly thing to say.

Now, I have given you a rational and reasonable explanation that defeats all your personal interpretations of Scripture and you have not responded to any of the Scriptures that defeat your private interpretations.

What, that the Greek wasn't translated properly in my Bible translation? Again, the preexistence of Christ was never an issue throughout Christian history. It was very obvious today as it was two millenia years ago. You can't convince a man his horse is dead if it's standing there eating a carrot just handed to him. You're trying to convince me the horse is dead. I want to know why.

[Aineo]

I have adequately shown to any rational person who is in search of God's truth that Jesus did not preexist as a divine entity and one way I proved your thesis is wrong is to quote Jesus, Peter, Paul, and John. You defense is to label Jesus, Peter, Paul, and John liars by appealing to Greek philsophical interpretations of Scripture thereby denying the very foundation of God's household.

Now since you insist you have answered my questions (which you have not), then here they are again. Explain all the Scriptures that emphatically state that God is not a man, the son of man, and that there is but one true God the Father.

[Believer]

I have adequately shown to any rational person who is in search of God's truth that Jesus did not preexist as a divine entity and one way I proved your thesis is wrong is to quote Jesus, Peter, Paul, and John.

I have adequately shown to any rational person who is in search of God's truth that Jesus did preexist as a divine entity and one way I proved my thesis is right is to quote Jesus, Peter, Paul, and John.

You defense is to label Jesus, Peter, Paul, and John liars by appealing to Greek philsophical interpretations of Scripture thereby denying the very foundation of God's household.

Paul said that Jesus is before all things and created all living creatures. I've shown you the passage from Colossians. I've shown you many selections from John, also. The argument has been very strong until you suddenly want to change the discussion.

Exampli Gratia:
John 16:28
I came from the Father and have come into the world. Now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."

Jesus couldn't have first been a thought in the Father's mind and then afterlife be a living being. He came into the world, literally, and left this world literally.

A strong argument. One of many, I think.
I want you to tell me if this isn't correct, that based on the verse Jesus must have existed in the same way before and after his life on earth, no both ways.

Anything that involves any form of thinking shouldn't be described as Greek-philosophy influenced. There's a lack of evidence to even support your claim that Jesus was purely a predetermined plan, note that I never denied Jesus wasn't to fulfill a divine plan...every Christian believes that. History doesn't show this issue of Jesus's preexistence was ever called into question.

Now since you insist you have answered my questions (which you have not), then here they are again. Explain all the Scriptures that emphatically state that God is not a man, the son of man, and that there is but one true God the Father.

I have a better idea. Start a new thread and list some verses, and we can discuss them. But understand that when you put the pieces together, Jesus, the Father, and the Spirit are God. The preexistence of Chist is an important piece of the puzzle. Even cults like the JW's and Arians believe that Jesus preexisted. Don't feel like you have some grand argument that will debunk two millenia of Christian doctrine if you would ignore a plethora of puzzle pieces that make up the picture of God.

[webmaster]

I came from the Father and have come into the world. Now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."

Believer came from his Father and has come into this world?
Now Believer one day is gonna leave this world and return back to the Father?


So you Believer are also your own Father?

[Believer]

Believer came from his Father and has come into this world?
Now Believer one day is gonna leave this world and return back to the Father?


So you Believer are also your own Father?

God created me and sent me into the embryo. I was a preexistent being for probably an instant. Interestingly, the verse doesn't tell us how long Jesus was preexistent . Scripture in other places show that Jesus was a preexistent being alot longer than an instant.
Christ tells us He was before Abraham. He is before all things, as St. Paul told us.

John 6:62
What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

Good point, though.

[Aineo]

Webmaster made a good point. As to starting a new thread, you have tried to take every thread off topic by ignoring the purpose of the thread so why should I start another thread you can spam with the same arguments that do not address the historical and linguistic evidence that proves how Trinitarian translators mistranslated Scriptures like Philippians 2:5-11? Also when you put Philippians 2:5-11 in its full context Paul is not teaching the preexistence of Jesus, which is another reason your interpretation is incorrect.

When non-Jews resort to non-Jewish philosophical concepts to interpret the Scriptures then referring to people who interpret Scripture based on what 4th century Greeks influenced by their pagan environments declared as God's truth is to refer to historical truth, which is another aspect of this debate you choose to ignore.

You see Believer all you have done is post generalities and ignored the specifics. Clement and Origen were educated in classical not Koine Greek and they wrote in classical not Koine Greek. Therefore when you avoid the fact the NT was written in Koine and not classical Greek you avoided that part of this discussion.

Also you were removed as a moderator after you abandoned this board and ceased to cooperate in the active management of this board, which means you lack the authority to dictate anything to anyone.

Now, since the Bible is clear that God is one, is not a son of man, is the only true and wise God, that Jesus was born of a woman, exalted to God's right hand, is God's Anointed One, was appointed God's heir, and High Priest your insistence that Jesus preexisted as a divine entity has not been proved on this thread or any other thread.

[Aineo]

Oh, and by the way when a sentence starts with "what if" it is a rhetorical question not a statement of fact, which is another aspect of the English language you have chosen to ignore. This type of rhetorical question is known as an anacoenosis. Now put vs. 62 in its full context and your interpretation once agains fails.

[webmaster]

God created me and sent me into the embryo. I was a preexistent being for probably an instant. Interestingly, the verse doesn't tell us how long Jesus was preexistent :). Scripture in other places show that Jesus was a preexistent being alot longer than an instant.
Christ tells us He was before Abraham. He is before all things, as St. Paul told us.

John 6:62
What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

Good point, though.

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Don't add the thought of God to human Time frame!

[Believer]

Webmaster made a good point. As to starting a new thread, you have tried to take every thread off topic by ignoring the purpose of the thread so why should I start another thread you can spam with the same arguments that do not address the historical and linguistic evidence that proves how Trinitarian translators mistranslated Scriptures like Philippians 2:5-11? Also when you put Philippians 2:5-11 in its full context Paul is not teaching the preexistence of Jesus, which is another reason your interpretation is incorrect.

"...coming in human likeness; 5 and found human in appearance, "

This statment is very revealing. I mean, how can there any controversy surounding this? It is just that self-explanatory.

When non-Jews resort to non-Jewish philosophical concepts to interpret the Scriptures then referring to people who interpret Scripture based on what 4th century Greeks influenced by their pagan environments declared as God's truth is to refer to historical truth, which is another aspect of this debate you choose to ignore.

That's because I don't buy into it, simply. My knowledge of Greek philosophy is crude and elementary, and yet I see the connections in scripture. Also, Hebrew Christians and Jewish converts to Christianity, for the most part, accept orthodox Christian beliefs. So, logically that argument is called into question.

One could make the argument, Aineo, that the dying and ressurecting Jesus is a borrowed belief from pagan myths of that time. You've heard stuff like this before; this isn't much different. It's cheap.

You see Believer all you have done is post generalities and ignored the specifics. Clement and Origen were educated in classical not Koine Greek and they wrote in classical not Koine Greek. Therefore when you avoid the fact the NT was written in Koine and not classical Greek you avoided that part of this discussion.

The earliest versions of the gospels and letters we have don't teach a different doctrine. Modern scholars who know Koine Greek translated them. You're acting like the only Bible we have was doctored up by 5th century Greeks. Paul was Greek, by the way. Does that mean Paul was perverted by Hellenistic thought? No, of course not.

Now, since the Bible is clear that God is one, is not a son of man, is the only true and wise God, that Jesus was born of a woman, exalted to God's right hand, is God's Anointed One, was appointed God's heir, and High Priest your insistence that Jesus preexisted as a divine entity has not been proved on this thread or any other thread.

God is not like a son of man, lest he should lie. I've read that verse, these arguments I had with Muslims years ago. God is not like a man, but a man was God incarnate. Big difference.

I only believe in one God, the Father Almighty, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit. The Nicene Creed proclaims that the Father is God, in fact. Using the above to prove that Jesus wasn't preexistent as a divine being is nonsensical. Hebrews, Colossians, etc stated that Jesus was there, as a divine being, in the beginning. He is before all things and through Him all things were made. He is the very imprint of the Father's being, and who is the Father? God. The Holy Spirit was the Advocate that the Father sent to be with all of us. The Spirit is shown to be a person, and is God...but different than the Father.

II Corinthians 13:13
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the holy Spirit be with all of you.

Matthew 28:19
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

[Believer]

Oh, and by the way when a sentence starts with "what if" it is a rhetorical question not a statement of fact, which is another aspect of the English language you have chosen to ignore. This type of rhetorical question is known as an anacoenosis. Now put vs. 62 in its full context and your interpretation once agains fails.

Again. I don't see a connection with vs 6:62 and the proceeding verses.

[webmaster]

My knowledge of Greek philosophy is crude and elementary, and yet I see the connections in scripture.

Then there needs to be some serious unbiased research same as on this thread!
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=5396

[Aineo]

Once again you have shown that you are not interested in discussing specifics. Your explanation of Philippians 2 has already been refuted with the meaning of "morphe" in Koine Greek, which you have not addressed. What evidence do you have that Clement and Origen used vernacular or slang Greek otherwise known as Koine in their writings? The fact is you don't have any.

Paul was a Jew from Tarsus, a Greek city. Peter was a fisherman who lived in or near Capernaum another Greek speaking city so your attempt to rationalize the use of classical Greek definitions for Koine is nothing more than an attempt to obfuscate this thread since Paul communicated with the masses not the academic and intellectual elite. Here is the definition of the Koine Greek word translated "form" in Philippians 2.

NT:3444

morfee, morfees, hee

the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance: Philippians 2:6
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)

Jesus who has the external appearance of God (God created man in His image), took on the external appearance of a bond-servant does not establish the preexistence of the Lord.

Those who try to compare the birth/death/resurrection of the Lord with the Isis/Osiris/Horus myths and there othe pagan counterparts ignore the fact that both Isis and Osiris were gods. Mary was not a goddess, so the comparison is both superficial and lame. So once again you are trying to obfuscate this thread.

God is not like a son of man, lest he should lie. I've read that verse, these arguments I had with Muslims years ago. God is not like a man, but a man was God incarnate. Big difference.

Reading a verse and understanding a verse are not the same thing. You need to come up with a better explanation. God said He is not a man or the son of man and Jesus' favorite title for Himself was "Son of Man", which is the same way God the Father addressed the prophet Ezekiel, which only adds weight to Moses prophesy concerning a prophet like him who God would raise up in Israel and God is not a prophet like Moses.

2 Corinthians 13:13 does not refer to the Lord Jesus Christ as the Lord God Jesus Christ. The word "kurios" does not equate to the person addressed as "kurios" is God. This was discussed on another thread you contributed to so I will not go into this again. Also Matthew 28:19 does not read "names" indicating a compound unity, it reads "name". So unless you suddenly converted to the UPC your appeal to that verse is ludicrous since the Father's name is Yehovah, the Son's name is Yehoshuah (God is salvation), and the Holy Spirit does not have a name other than Holy Spirit.

Now when are you going to address these:

Exodus 3:14-15
14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" 15 And God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.
NAS

Deuteronomy 6:4

4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!
NAS

John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.
NAS

1 st Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
NAS

Ephesians 4:4-8
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it says,
NAS

1 st Timothy 2:5-6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time.
NAS

The preexistence of Jesus as God is not taught in Scripture, this concept was developed by Greeks starting with Justin Martyr who was not a Trinitarian (he was a binitarian) and further developed by Origen and declared doctrine at the First Council of Nicea.

[Aineo]

As to John 6:62, many false doctrines have been developed by taking one verse out of a discourse. Also your response did not address the use of literary devices throughout Scripture like the use of rhetorical questions. This is another of your favorite tactics and that is ignoring what you cannot respond to.

[Donny Cage]

I haven't read this entire thread... But I wanted to put in my two cents real quick...

Providing the pre-existance of Jesus is quite simple, and is plainly taught in scripture. Any attempt to deny this would be by twisting scripture.

However, just because we have very clear biblical evidence of pre-existance doesn't in anyway support trinitariansm. Just providing pre-existance, means He existed in some way, shape or form before He became human.

Many religions and denominations accept the biblical concept of the pre-existance of Jesus... If Jesus did exist, prior to His human appearance, 2000 years ago, then who is He?

Some believe He is the Spirit Brother of Satan...
Some believe He is the Arch Angel Michael.
Some believe He is a second person of a triune god.
Some believe He is God Himself manifested in the flesh.

Providing pre-existance, only gets you to the obvious. If you are trying to prove a trinity, you have to provide biblical evidence, that not only He existed, but He existed alongside with two others, each being 100% God, co-existant, co-eternal, and co-equal. You also have to provide how this is in someway not polytheistic. You can say "we believe in One God" all day long, but when you begin to describe the trinity you begin to describe 3 gods.

[Aineo]

Donny Cage, you have attempted to bring in another topic on every thread dealing with the Trinity in a forum that is dedicated to discussing the Trinity. Now, I have split some of your posts to the Apologetics Forum but I will not split any more of your posts that are off topic I will simply delete them. If you want to discuss God is a duality then do so in the Apologetics Forum.

[Believer]

Once again you have shown that you are not interested in discussing specifics. Your explanation of Philippians 2 has already been refuted with the meaning of "morphe" in Koine Greek, which you have not addressed. What evidence do you have that Clement and Origen used vernacular or slang Greek otherwise known as Koine in their writings? The fact is you don't have any.

"...coming in human likeness; 5 and found human in appearance, "

How do you interpret this? If Jesus was just a man like you and I, then why the big deal Jesus was made human in likeness and appearance? Doesn't that seem odd? You assume only a part of the passage could allude to Jesus's preexistence, which you've tried to show another interpretation. The best interpretation is the one that goes along with the rest of the passage.

Jesus who has the external appearance of God (God created man in His image), took on the external appearance of a bond-servant does not establish the preexistence of the Lord.

I don't believe God created us in His "physical" image. God doesn't have an external appearance.

Those who try to compare the birth/death/resurrection of the Lord with the Isis/Osiris/Horus myths and there othe pagan counterparts ignore the fact that both Isis and Osiris were gods. Mary was not a goddess, so the comparison is both superficial and lame. So once again you are trying to obfuscate this thread.

People take cheap shots. Do you have access to the original gospels and letters? Do you understand Koine Greek? Where do you get your information from?

Reading a verse and understanding a verse are not the same thing. You need to come up with a better explanation. God said He is not a man or the son of man and Jesus' favorite title for Himself was "Son of Man", which is the same way God the Father addressed the prophet Ezekiel, which only adds weight to Moses prophesy concerning a prophet like him who God would raise up in Israel and God is not a prophet like Moses.

Yeah, but Jesus referring to Himself as "Son of Man" is enough evidence to tell us that Jesus is not a man like you and I. It's strange for a natural human to call himself a "son of man".
God put every word into the mouth of this Prophet. If this prophet were God incarnate as a son of man, where the Fullness of the Deity dwelt, then sure every word spoken would be from God.

2 Corinthians 13:13 does not refer to the Lord Jesus Christ as the Lord God Jesus Christ. The word "kurios" does not equate to the person addressed as "kurios" is God. This was discussed on another thread you contributed to so I will not go into this again. Also Matthew 28:19 does not read "names" indicating a compound unity, it reads "name". So unless you suddenly converted to the UPC your appeal to that verse is ludicrous since the Father's name is Yehovah, the Son's name is Yehoshuah (God is salvation), and the Holy Spirit does not have a name other than Holy Spirit.

The verse only shows that there are three persons. That's the significance of it. That "God[the Father]", "Jesus Christ", and "Holy Spirit" are three persons. I guess where one goes from there is another story.

The verses I'll adress in just a minute, I'll do another post just for them, because they are kinda off topic but are important.

[Believer]

Exodus 3:14-15
14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" 15 And God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.
NAS

John 8:24
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."

Deuteronomy 6:4

4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!
NAS

I believe in one God.
"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone!
God is our only God.

John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.
NAS

What Christ said corresponded with Deut. 6:4. God is our only God. God is a Revelation. The Father is God, and the revelation shows that the Son and Spirit are of the same substance and being as the Father.

John 17:5
Now glorify me, Father, with you, with the glory that I had with you before the world began.

The state of Glory that Jesus was in before all was is the same as that when He returned. A Godly glory. The Father gave his name to His Son, Jesus called Himself "I AM".

1 st Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
NAS

Do you see that the Son, in essence, completes the Father? The Father and Son are so intimately connected that the Trinity doesn't seem so odd.

Ephesians 4:4-8
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it says,
NAS

Verse five states that the Lord, faith, baptism, God, and Father are the same thing. And this is overall, through all, and in all. I believe Paul is speaking of the mystery of the Church and the calling of the Spirit in all of us.

1 st Timothy 2:5-6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time.
NAS

The man Jesus Christ! The man Jesus was a divine being before He came into this world.

The preexistence of Jesus as God is not taught in Scripture, this concept was developed by Greeks starting with Justin Martyr who was not a Trinitarian (he was a binitarian) and further developed by Origen and declared doctrine at the First Council of Nicea.

Do you have evidence that very early Christians didn't believe Jesus was preexistent?

I have only used scripure to support the belief, no imported Greek commentary or anything else. Jesus is before all things, and through Him all things were made. He came in human likeness and appearance. He came from a state of Glory before the world began which He went back to after all was completed. To say this merits no support from scripture is an unconvincing statment to a man who only relied on scripture and who has a belief that Christians always had.

[Aineo]

Jesus is the I AM but not God since Jesus is the gate, bread of life, the Shepherd, the only way to the Father, and etc. You interpretation of John 5 is defeated by John 17:22 since God will not give His glory to another (Isaiah 42:8, 48:11).

Your explanation of Dueteronomy 6:4 is not an explanation and has no connection to John 17:3 other than Jesus' affirmation that the Father is the only true God.

The Father is complete in Himself or the Spirit could not have proceeded from the Father. So once again your rhetoric is exposed as nothing more than an attempt of advance a tradition of men.

The fact you want to pull Ephesians 4:5 out of context by ignoring vs. 6 shows just how desperate you are. Baptism is not the same thing as God or are you trying to add to your Godhead? One God and Father of all is a clear statement that does not need to be interpreted.

Your reasoning and logic (really lack of reasoning and logic) is getting sloppy Believer. The man Jesus Christ existed in God's predetermined plan, not as a divine entity and pulling words, phrases, and sections of Scripture out of context and interpreting words to show Jesus was preexistent may support a tradition but does not make the Trinity true.

What you have exposed with your posts is that you cannot rationalize away the truth that God the Father is the only true God.

The first Christians were the Lord's disciples and those who converted because of Peter's sermon in Acts 2. Now since Peter did not preach that Jesus is part of a triune God but is a man who God highly exalted we see that the earliest Christians were not Trinitarians. We know that a man canonized by the Catholic Church was not a Trinitarian and that man was Justin Martry. So we have both Biblical and historical facts that show the Trinity was not taught in the Bible or in the earliest centuries of Christianity.

[Believer]

Jesus is the I AM but not God since Jesus is the gate, bread of life, the Shepherd, the only way to the Father, and etc. You interpretation of John 5 is defeated by John 17:22 since God will not give His glory to another (Isaiah 42:8, 48:11).

Those verses are clear enough. Jesus existed before Abraham, and bears God's Name. This is not a surprise, considering Jesus and the Father have the same nature and being. God technically didn't give His glory to another if Jesus is of the same nature and substance as God the Father.

The Father is complete in Himself or the Spirit could not have proceeded from the Father. So once again your rhetoric is exposed as nothing more than an attempt of advance a tradition of men.

Again, as you can see in the passage from I Corinthians, the Son completes the Father. The Father is not complete without the Son. The Son compliments the Father and fulfills Him in every way.
The Spirit is our Advocate that Jesus promised. This isn't an angel or a person, but is God the Holy Spirit. II Corinthians 13:13 and Matthew 28:19 depict the Holy Spirit and God and Jesus are distinct persons.

Your reasoning and logic (really lack of reasoning and logic) is getting sloppy Believer. The man Jesus Christ existed in God's predetermined plan, not as a divine entity and pulling words, phrases, and sections of Scripture out of context and interpreting words to show Jesus was preexistent may support a tradition but does not make the Trinity true.

I gave my take on those verses. I'm not the best teacher, maybe this new gentleman (Google) can explain things better than me.

Scripture is clear that the state of Glory and existence that Christ was in before He came into this world is of the same nature as that which He went to after all was completed. It's also clear that Jesus is the Living Bread that came down from Heaven. The unusual statments of Jesus existing before all things, and through Him all living creatures were made are quite clear, that Jesus was there. Jesus just is. In Revelation Christ is proclaimed the First and the Last.

What you have exposed with your posts is that you cannot rationalize away the truth that God the Father is the only true God.

Hey, I believe what's in scripture...which is quite clear that the Father is our only God. So is Jesus and the Holy Spirit...the same "only God".

The first Christians were the Lord's disciples and those who converted because of Peter's sermon in Acts 2. Now since Peter did not preach that Jesus is part of a triune God but is a man who God highly exalted we see that the earliest Christians were not Trinitarians. We know that a man canonized by the Catholic Church was not a Trinitarian and that man was Justin Martry. So we have both Biblical and historical facts that show the Trinity was not taught in the Bible or in the earliest centuries of Christianity.

Again, Peter just didn't elaborate on who the preexistent Jesus was. He emphasized the man Jesus, and his life, death, and ressurection. You want to use this passage as a complete Christological argument, which is wrong.

How do you suppose Jesus was able to defeat death and Satan, unlike anyone previously who died? Because He was God and God does not die. God is not taken captive by Satan, rather defeats Satan. When God the Son was released from the body, cataclysmic things happened. It's self evident who Jesus is. You want to negate things from Jesus Christ that are so inherently Christian.

[Aineo]

Your whole thesis denies the sovereignty of God, who gave Jesus authority to raise Himself, bruise Satan's head, and redeem those who put their faith in Him as God's Anointed One. Those who put their faith in Jesus have raised the dead, healed the sick, bruised Satan's head, and as the Lord prophesied and promised accomplished greater things that He did.

As to Googles opinions they have already been addressed on this thread and other threads. His teaching is the same I used to teach, so you can forget Googles as an ally since just as your arguments have been defeated with God's word so will his.

Now, in case you have forgotten the prior discussion involving the "I Am" in the OT, I will refresh your memory. YWHW is not first person present tense, it is first person future continuous and should be translated "I will be who I will be". And Jesus did exist before Abraham but He existed as God's predetermined plan, which is what Peter preached in Acts 2.

I addressed your "the Son completes the Father" in a prior post and the fact you have not responded to my post but simply repeated an assumption by ignoring vs. 6 in 1 Corinthians 8, which again shows that you are simply lecturing not discussing.

As to God the Holy Spirit, Scripture tells us the Holy Spirit proceeds from God, not that the Holy Spirit is a person with God and no Scripture calls the Holy Spirit God the Holy Spirit just as no Scripture refers to the Son of God as God the Son.

An advocate is also a mediator and as Paul wrote the only mediator between God and man is the man Jesus Christ.

You say you believe Scripture that tells us that Yehovah is the only true God and Father of all and then contradict Scripture by posting that Jesus completes God and you add that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also the only true God when Scripture never refers to either Jesus or the Holy Spirit as the only true God. So which is it Believer do you believe the Bible or do you believe the traditions of men?