Scriptures that disprove the Trinity ignored or rationalized

[Aineo]

There are several NT Scriptures that cast doubt on the validity of the doctrine of the Trinity. So I think we need to look at them individually and in light of the Old Testament.

John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. NAS

1st Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
NAS

Ephesians 4:4-8
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it says,

"When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men." NAS

1st Timothy 2:5-7
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time. 7 And for this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. NAS

The usual rationale is to opine that Jesus and Paul don't really mean what they said and wrote, commentators tell us that both Jesus and Paul are comparing the one true triune God to false gods. However, is this opinion valid or is this opinion based on tradition?

Exodus 3:15
15 And God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations. NAS

Numbers 23:19
19 "God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
Has He said, and will He not do it?
NAS


Deuteronomy 6:4-8

4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! 5 "And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6 And these words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart; 7 and you shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. 8 And you shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead. NAS

Isaiah 63:16
16 For Thou art our Father, though Abraham does not know us,
And Israel does not recognize us.
Thou, O LORD, art our Father,
Our Redeemer from of old is Thy name. NAS

Isaiah 64:8

8 But now, O LORD, Thou art our Father,
We are the clay, and Thou our potter;
And all of us are the work of Thy hand. NAS

Jeremiah 10:10
10 But the LORD is the true God;
He is the living God and the everlasting King.
At His wrath the earth quakes,
And the nations cannot endure His indignation. NAS

The foundation of Christianity (God's household) is the apostles and the prophets (Ephesians 2:20) so when commentators either ignore the prophets or rationalize what the prophets wrote their foundation is no longer one of rock but one of sand.

There is a verse in 1 John used by many Trinitarians to try to prove that Jesus is God.

1st John 5:18-21

18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him and the evil one does not touch him. 19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. 21 Little children, guard yourselves from idols. NAS

Since both the Father and the Son are mentioned in this section of 1 John, how do we determine if John is referring to God the Father or Jesus Christ? The answer is by referring to our foundation as well as what Jesus said in John 17:3. The LORD (which is Yehovah in Hebrew) is the only true God in the prophets. Also when we take all of John 17 into account we read that Jesus is in Him who is true, that He who is true is in Jesus and both the Father and the Son are in all true believers.

Since I have brought up John 17 lets look at a verse in this chapter that is also used to try to show that Jesus is God.

John 17:5
5 "And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was. NAS

Does this verse prove the preexistence of the Son as God? Not when we go back to our foundation.

Isaiah 42:8
8 "I am the LORD, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images. NAS

Now when we continue reading in John 17 we read:

John 17:22-23
22 "And the glory which Thou hast given Me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me. NAS

So we either have a contradiction in Scripture or the interpretation put on John 17:5 is forced and incorrect.

Another interesting aspect of 1 John 5:20 is that not all Trinitarian commentators agree that the last sentence refers to Jesus Christ. They base this on how the Greek word "houtos" is used in other Scriptures. However, when we let the Bible explain the Bible it is clear there is but one true God the Father who anointed the man Jesus Christ to be our Savior and appointed Jesus Christ as King of kings and Lord of lords.

[newseed]

Aineo,

To be even more clear, maybe you should start posting where it's says 'LORD' with the correct name...YAHWEH. I am sure many still don't realize the difference between 'LORD' and 'Lord'

[Aineo]

English translations of the OT follow the Hebrew custom of never pronouncing or printing God the Father's covenant name. Therefore where we read LORD (all caps) the Hebrew is YAHWEH. We also need to understand that there are several words that can be translated "lord". The two Hebrew words we need to concentrate on are 'adown and 'adonay. The former ('adown) is primarily used for men and angels and the later is used almost exclusively for God the Father.

Let's look at some examples.

Genesis 2:4

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven. NAS

In the above Scripture the Hebrew is YAHWEH (LORD) 'elohiym (God).

Genesis 15:2

2 And Abram said, "O Lord GOD, what wilt Thou give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?"
NAS

In this verse the Hebrew is 'adonay (Lord) 'elohiym (God).

Psalms 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at My right hand,
Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet." NAS

Now, in this Messianic prophesy the Hebrew for LORD is YAHWEH and the Hebrew for Lord is 'adown, not 'adonay.

This nuance of Hebrew does not carry over into Greek where the Greek word "kurios" is used for YAWEH, 'adown, and 'adonay when quoting the OT as well as when recording the words of the Lord and the apostles who spoke Aramaic not Greek.

[adampastor]

Actually, in Psalms 110.1
The 2nd word for 'lord' is a variant of adown ... adoni

adoni in all its 195 occurrences in the Hebrew Bible
is never ever used in ref. to Almighty GOD.
adoni is used in ref. to men (and occasionally angels).

Sadly, Strong's' doesn't differentiate between ado(w)n & adoni ... they are both given the number 113.

For more info, see
http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006/08/adonai-and-adoni-psalm-1101.html
and
http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2006/08/who-is-jesus-god-or-unique-man-by.html

[webmaster]

So how should the Gospel be presented to those who don't know a single scripture? The layman or normal "gentile" could care less about greek words etc

This is off topic so we could start a new topic about it?

[Aineo]

Lets start a new topic in the Christians Only Forums.

[Cletus]

John 17:3

And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.

(John 17:3 represents the primary proof text that Anti-trinitarians use to teach Jesus is a creature and trash the trinity. John 17:3 is to a Jehovah’s Witness, what John 3:16 is to a Christian!)


What John 17:3 is saying:

While Jesus walked the earth, he took off the outward robes of deity and put on the robes of a servant. (Phil 2:6-8 + John 13:3-20) Jesus on earth was still "very God" or the "only true God" but he took on a new role of a servant where all His efforts was to direct people to the Father as God and not to Himself. He humbled Himself, avoiding the glory of being God on earth and directing it to the Father alone. In the midst of Jesus' final prayer in the garden just prior to his arrest, we see that such submission was not merely a show while in the presence of man, but a true to the heart submission to the Father. Jesus was not denying he was the "only true God", but was praising the Father as such. the very next words after this verse are: "I glorified Thee on the earth … now glorify me". Jesus would not sing his own praises! In very simple terms, if Jesus addressed someone else as "man", that does not mean Jesus himself was not a man. Jesus was not creating a point of distinction between Himself and the Father in the expression, "only true God", but between the Father and any other "so called god" like idols. Jesus had lived among the Romans with their many competing gods and Jesus was addressing the Father with these idols in mind.

What John 17:3 is not saying:

The quickest way to see the mistake in the Jehovah’s Witness interpretation of John 17:3 is in Eph 4:4-6. ("there is one God and one Lord") If "One God" excludes Jesus from God, then "One Lord" excludes God from being Lord. Yet we know that they share these identical characteristics. Jehovah is not only called the Only true God (John 17:3), but the "Only Saviour" (Isa 43:11; 45:21; Hos 13:4; Jude 25) , "Only King" (Zech 14:9). If John 17:3 excludes Jesus from being "True God", then Jesus is also excluded from being a Saviour or King. Conversely, Jesus is called the "Only Teacher, (Matt 23:8,10, Mt 10:24 and Jn 13:13), "Only Master" (Jude 4, 2 Peter 2:1), and "Only Lord" (Jude 4, Eph 4:4, 1 Cor 8:4,6, Mt 6:24). If John 17:3 excludes Jesus from being "True God", then the Father is also excluded from being our Teacher, Master or Lord.

False Arian argument stated:
It is obvious that Jesus and the Father are not the same person, but two distinct persons. Therefore Jesus is not God.
The fact that the Father is the "only true God", excludes Jesus as being the "only true God".

[Cletus]

I forgot to mention that it was taken from http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-texts-john17-3.htm. Don't need to anyways since I am a huge contributor of that article. Yelp!

Yourn,
Cletus

[Aineo]

First of all posting entire articles from another site is ludicrous and a waste of server space. Either summarize the article, post quotes that do not exceed 500 words and then post a link. BTW, the link you did post does not point to an article so either fix your link or your post will be deleted instead of being edited to about 403 words.

Now, since I am not promoting Jehovah's Witnesses your article does not apply to this thread.

You have appealed to Philippians 2:5-7 in an attempt to show that Jesus "took off the outward robes of deity", when in fact Philippians 2 does not even hint at this interpretation and neither does John 13:3-20. In Philippians 2 Paul is teaching we should not do anything from vain conceit but we should emulate Jesus who was in the form (morfee) of God but humbled Himself to take on the form (morfee) of a bond-servant. In John 13, Jesus humbles Himself to wash His disciples feet even though He is both their Lord and their Teacher. In no place does John 13 hint at Jesus being God.

What you article did not address is Jesus affirmation that the Father is the only true God, which agrees with the balance of Scripture.