Jesus on tradition

[Aineo]

Matt 15:2-9
3 And He answered and said to them, "And why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 "For God said, 'Honor your father and mother,' and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death.' 5 "But you say, 'Whoever shall say to his father or mother," Anything of mine you might have been helped by has been given to God, " 6 he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And thus you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 "You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,

8'This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
9'But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.'
NAS

Mark 7:6-13
6 And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,

'This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7'But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.'

8 "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." 9 He was also saying to them, "You nicely set aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 "For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death'; 11 but you say,' If a man says to his father or his mother, anything of mine you might have been helped by is Corban (that is to say, given to God),' 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that. "
NAS

[Snipe]

The sad thing is that the scribes and Pharisees of our day, who sit in Mosheh's sit, still do the same. They love the praises of men, more than God's.

[budin24]

are u joking??!!

[Endurance]

I wish I were... But the traditions of man, have corrupted the truth of Christ...

[Aineo]

I wish I were... But the traditions of man, have corrupted the truth of Christ...

As have those who ignore the majority of Scripture and build heretical theologies on one or two Bible verses.

[Endurance]

Do you just follow me around with nothing to say but negative things to show me how much you hate me?

Luke 11:34 - The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.

Titus 1:15 - Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Proverbs 1:15-16 - My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path: For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood.

[Cross_+_Flame]

I wish I were... But the traditions of man, have corrupted the truth of Christ...

As have those who ignore the majority of Scripture and build heretical theologies on one or two Bible verses.

Me too, like how the Christian Right has created an ideology based on 7 verses about homosexuality, and ignored 500 verses on 'helping the poor'. Sad, really.

[Aineo]

Cross_+_Flame, what is your denomination's and your stance stance of adultery and fornication? If you see homosexuality as a viable lifestyle totally within God's will then post God's instructions for such relationships. All you have done is ignore Peter's instructions in 2 Peter 1:21-21 and introduced liberal interpretations based on psychology that actually void God's revealed truth. As to feeding the poor I agree that many Christians love money more than God and refuse to feed to poor.

Endurance, if you consider disagreeing with you as hate then you need to avoid posting one liners that deny reality.

[Cross_+_Flame]

As to feeding the poor I agree that many Christians love money more than God and refuse to feed to poor.

Then we agree It's sad, then, that false piety is the excuse to masquerade as the Christian Right, when the real fact is that people are dying from being poor and marginalized, and no amount of gay-bashing will change that.

[Endurance]

I can definitely agree with you there. That issue was brought up in the House Divided thread as well.

[Aineo]

As to feeding the poor I agree that many Christians love money more than God and refuse to feed to poor.

Then we agree It's sad, then, that false piety is the excuse to masquerade as the Christian Right, when the real fact is that people are dying from being poor and marginalized, and no amount of gay-bashing will change that.

Standing on God's truth is not gay bashing and if you see God's truth as gay bashing you have a real problem since God does not bash gays God judges a human behavior He labels sin.

You on the other hand have decided that God's word is to be questioned and you promote sinful behavior in the name of tolerance. Tolerance and approval of a sin are not the same concept.

Now this thread has to do with Jesus' teachings concerning traditions of men; it does not deal with social issues.

[Endurance]

As to feeding the poor I agree that many Christians love money more than God and refuse to feed to poor.

Then we agree It's sad, then, that false piety is the excuse to masquerade as the Christian Right, when the real fact is that people are dying from being poor and marginalized, and no amount of gay-bashing will change that.

I wonder how much better the Christian community would be if they stopped judging sin and trying to make people obey God, and started helping the poor instead.

[Aineo]

I wonder how much better the Christian community would be if they stopped judging sin and trying to make people obey God, and started helping the poor instead.

I believe Paul has addressed this:

1 Corinthians 5:9-13

9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters; for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he should be an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves. NAS

[Cross_+_Flame]

So, the Christian tradition would seem to say that

(1) We have to purify ourselves
(2) We have to cast out those who are against the community

Before we can help those outside the church? What if (1)(2) never end?

[Endurance]

Wow, I really have to go into detail with every comment I make here. This time it was my fault though b/c I should have been more specific in this case. But anyways, here we go.

I wrote:
"I wonder how much better the Christian community would be if they stopped judging sin and trying to make people obey God, and started helping the poor instead."

The intentions were, if Christains started focusing more on helping the poor rather than trying to make everyone obey God who do not believe His Word to be the truth and proper morality, I wonder how the community would be.

Hope this clears things up...

[Aineo]

So, the Christian tradition would seem to say that

(1) We have to purify ourselves
(2) We have to cast out those who are against the community

Before we can help those outside the church? What if (1)(2) never end?

I would say that Christianity is all about living moral lives in the power of the Holy Spirit and those who choose to live immoral lives yet call themselves Christian are to be excluded if they refuse to repent.

The teachings in Scripture in regard to immorality are not based on manmade traditions they are God's revealed truth.

[JJM]

To the OP I think it's important to realize that the traditions Christ is referring to are customs like washing hands not religious teachings like how many books are in the bible or whether or not purgatory is real.

[JJM]

I wonder how much better the Christian community would be if they stopped judging sin and trying to make people obey God, and started helping the poor instead.

How can you try to make people obey God if you don't tell them when they are disobeying God?

[Endurance]

JJm-

I clarified my intentions above, rebuking someone is not what I was arguing against. We should speak against what is wrong, but we should not try to make people do what is right... Helping the poor should be more important then trying to force God on someone...

[Aineo]

To the OP I think it's important to realize that the traditions Christ is referring to are customs like washing hands not religious teachings like how many books are in the bible or whether or not purgatory is real.

Purgatory was a tradition of the Pharisees and would be included in what Jesus taught against. Jesus would also have been referring to the many traditions the Jews built up around all the laws not just washing hands.

[JJM]

To the OP I think it's important to realize that the traditions Christ is referring to are customs like washing hands not religious teachings like how many books are in the bible or whether or not purgatory is real.

Purgatory was a tradition of the Pharisees and would be included in what Jesus taught against. Jesus would also have been referring to the many traditions the Jews built up around all the laws not just washing hands.

I realize Jesus is speaking of more than just washing hands but my point is that the things he was talking about were actions like washing hands that the Pharisees used looked down on other people thus violating the law to love your neighbor and or other laws over things that don't really matter. However he isn't referring to theological beliefs like Purgatory or the nature of the Trinity. Just because the Pharisees may have believed in Purgatory doesn't mean you can take Jesus's statement out of Context.

[JJM]

JJm-

I clarified my intentions above, rebuking someone is not what I was arguing against. We should speak against what is wrong, but we should not try to make people do what is right... Helping the poor should be more important then trying to force God on someone...

Oh ok then I agree with you

[Aineo]

I realize Jesus is speaking of more than just washing hands but my point is that the things he was talking about were actions like washing hands that the Pharisees used looked down on other people thus violating the law to love your neighbor and or other laws over things that don't really matter. However he isn't referring to theological beliefs like Purgatory or the nature of the Trinity. Just because the Pharisees may have believed in Purgatory doesn't mean you can take Jesus's statement out of Context.

The traditions of the Pharisees were part of the theological beliefs of the Jews and did include concepts like purgatory that deny "it is appointed to man once to die and then the judgment" (Heb 9:27).

[JJM]

I realize Jesus is speaking of more than just washing hands but my point is that the things he was talking about were actions like washing hands that the Pharisees used looked down on other people thus violating the law to love your neighbor and or other laws over things that don't really matter. However he isn't referring to theological beliefs like Purgatory or the nature of the Trinity. Just because the Pharisees may have believed in Purgatory doesn't mean you can take Jesus's statement out of Context.

The traditions of the Pharisees were part of the theological beliefs of the Jews and did include concepts like purgatory that deny "it is appointed to man once to die and then the judgment" (Heb 9:27).

I agree with you Purgatory was and in a sense still is part of Jewish tradition but Jesus is saying that they weren’t seeing the difference between the traditions of man (the customs I was referring to) and theological truths but that doesn't disclude Tradition of theological truths automatically. It just shows that there is a need to see between the two. Also Purgatory doesn't deny “it is appointed to man once to die and then the judgment" (Heb 9:27). One is judged right after they die according to the idea of purgatory because someone who is going to hell wouldn’t spend any time in purgatory because it would be pointless. The scripture doesn't say what happened right after the judgment.

[Aineo]

JJM, since you want to discuss Catholic traditions I suggest you start new threads dealing with each one since Jesus does not teach purgatory as a valid concept and this thread deals with what Jesus taught regarding tradition and is not a thread to defend Catholicisms heresies.

[JJM]

JJM, since you want to discuss Catholic traditions I suggest you start new threads dealing with each one since Jesus does not teach purgatory as a valid concept and this thread deals with what Jesus taught regarding tradition and is not a thread to defend Catholicisms heresies.

Umm i didn't mean to make it an argument about purgatory it was simply ment to be an example of a Tradition that wasn't a custom. You took it farther. I really didn't expect anyone to comment on it.

[Aineo]

JJM, since you want to discuss Catholic traditions I suggest you start new threads dealing with each one since Jesus does not teach purgatory as a valid concept and this thread deals with what Jesus taught regarding tradition and is not a thread to defend Catholicisms heresies.

Umm i didn't mean to make it an argument about purgatory it was simply ment to be an example of a Tradition that wasn't a custom. You took it farther. I really didn't expect anyone to comment on it.

Since purgatory is a heretical tradition based on Jewish tradition and not God's revealed truth what did you expect? Every non-Catholic board I have posted to has debated purgatory every time it is mentioned. So if you don't want to debate Catholic heresies I suggest you leave them at the door.

[JJM]

JJM, since you want to discuss Catholic traditions I suggest you start new threads dealing with each one since Jesus does not teach purgatory as a valid concept and this thread deals with what Jesus taught regarding tradition and is not a thread to defend Catholicisms heresies.

Umm i didn't mean to make it an argument about purgatory it was simply ment to be an example of a Tradition that wasn't a custom. You took it farther. I really didn't expect anyone to comment on it.

Since purgatory is a heretical tradition based on Jewish tradition and not God's revealed truth what did you expect? Every non-Catholic board I have posted to has debated purgatory every time it is mentioned. So if you don't want to debate Catholic heresies I suggest you leave them at the door.

Ok sorry is their some other Tradition I could have mentioned that wouldn't have gotten a similar response. Actually I had originally said the trinity but I was thinking we might get in an argument about whether or not it was a Tradition. Also I haven't been disrespectful to your beliefs please don't start calling me a heretic.

[Aineo]

The Trinity is not a "tradition"; the Trinity is taught in Scripture while purgatory and Catholicism's "holy traditions" are traditions of men given the weight of God's revealed truth by men.

I did not call you a heretic I called Catholic traditions heresies.

[JJM]

The Trinity is not a "tradition"; the Trinity is taught in Scripture while purgatory and Catholicism's "holy traditions" are traditions of men given the weight of God's revealed truth by men.

I did not call you a heretic I called Catholic traditions heresies.

You see what I mean I can't mention a Tradition without someone getting on about the Tradition but how can we have a discussion about Tradition without mentioning them?

Also the Trinity is Tradition because it is possible to read the bible and conclude logically something else. It would still have to be a form of the Trinity but not the Trinity as is understood by the Nicene Creed.


While yes you didn't call me a heretic I am preaching something you consider a heresy so you might as well have. It's like saying you’re in something and that thing is a race but I never called you a racer.

[Aineo]

Well, that is a new tactic from a Catholic. The Trinity is not based on oral tradition; the Trinity is based in Biblical truth. However, the holy traditions of the Catholic Church are based on pagan beliefs imported into Christianity.

[JJM]

Well, that is a new tactic from a Catholic. The Trinity is not based on oral tradition; the Trinity is based in Biblical truth. However, the holy traditions of the Catholic Church are based on pagan beliefs imported into Christianity.

Really because I've always heard Catholics say the Trinity is Tradition. In fact as far as Catholics are concerned everything with in the Bible is Tradition. However it is possible to read the bible and conclude that the Trinity, as Christians see it, isn't true. Can you show me were it says that there are three people each that create one God but for some reason if only one of these is present then that one is still God or if two those two are still God, and that these three people are all equal yet the Son proceeds form the Father and the Holy Spirit from the Father through the Son. Show me that and that it is impossible to logically think anything else after reading the bible and I'll concede that there is no tradition in it out side of the Bible.


Also didn't you say that purgatory was based of a Jewish belief so obviously it can't all come from paganism? In fact Catholics would argue most of it came from Judaism and the rest from the teachings of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

[Aineo]

Following are threads that deal with the Trinity, which is a revealed truth found in Scripture.
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=6195
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=6122
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=6181
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=5355

Purgatory is found in paganism and to some extent in the traditions of the Jews, however purgatory contradicts Biblical truth. The Catholic Church states that the Bible does not contain God's full truth so it can justify holy traditions that actually contradict Biblical truth.

[JJM]

Purgatory is found in paganism and to some extent in the traditions of the Jews, however purgatory contradicts Biblical truth.

You have yet to show me where it contradicts biblical truth.

The Catholic Church states that the Bible does not contain God's full truth so it can justify holy traditions that actually contradict Biblical truth.

It never has nor will it ever say that it can support Tradition that contradicts scripture.

and also I;m not going to read over 20 pages of arguing to find points I don't even think are there.

[Aineo]

Well, then start a thread on whatever topic you want to try to prove with the Bible since holy traditions are traditions of men.

[JJM]

Well, then start a thread on whatever topic you want to try to prove with the Bible since holy traditions are traditions of men.

ok I'll do that in the morning goodnight may God bless you.

[Hemlock]

(*sticks tongue firmly in cheek*)
Traditions are what others hold to that prevent them from understanding the truth of God's Word. Denominational history and historic doctrines are simply what my group is 'proud' of.