THE HERESY OF THE TRINITY

[hisway]

This forum is filled with post after post trying to convince those who are gullible and fearful, that the One God of the Old Testament is really three Gods. But, following the language of their creeds and confessions, they balk at the obvious conclusion of their pagan theories and say they are forbidden to call these three "separate" persons each a God. Does not "separate" and "distinct" mean each a God? For instance, Jesus at his baptism: Jesus is in the water, the Father speaks from Heaven, the Holy Spirit descends like a dove; this is a trinity candystick trying to prove three separate and distinct persons, one God in the water, one God speaking from heaven, and the third God coming down in the form of a dove? To hear the trinitarians tell it, that is exactly what you have. They want non-trinitarians to believe there are three Gods by using the word "Persons" to describe them rather than the word "Gods".

So they will say there are three distinct and separate persons in the trinity but balk to say there are three separate Gods in the trinity? Double talk does not get any better and heresy cannot be more confusing. That is why they run to that Roman riddle, 'the trinity is a mystery no one can understand'. Well, why are they preaching it for salvation and talking about it calling others "cults" who don't believe it, if they don't even understand it? No, they use this escape mechanism to avoid the rebuke of their ego and those "holy" creeds of Papal Rome and her Catholic daughters. The trinitarians want to make the three separate persons distinct and having different roles in the trinity at the baptism of Jesus. They say the Father is not the Son, The Son is not the Father, and neither the Father or the Son are the Holy Ghost. That, anyway you turn it is THREE GODS. They want three Gods, but do not want to confess it. When confronted with the obvious conclusion of their heresy, they resort to name calling as if alleging Onesness Apostolics like myself are "cultists" because they cannot win their arguments. So by placing a malicious label on Oneness Apostolics it approves and settles their tritheism and earns them a right to say they are winners of this Biblical issue.

There are many attacks against Oneness Apostolics who hold to the ancient Jewish Monarchian doctrine of One God. Trinitarians act like calling us Sabellians and Modalist is an evil association. (see my post "Modalism: Heresy Or Catholic Persecution of Truth" - Christian Debate Forum) Why do they stop there with that hatred and prejudice? Why don't they just drop back to the Apostles and Jews and say Oneness believers are also Christian Jews who deny the trinity based upon Old and New Testament revelation? They don't do it because the truth of this would lend to the Oneness Apostolic's vindication and reputable behaviour as being Biblical Monarchist, and that would be a rebuke to them. How nice to throw around the names of Sabellian and Modalist, why don't they mention the heretics of the trinity like Clement of Alexandria, Tertuallian, the Shepherd of Hermas, etc.? Just because someone makes a claim that the trinity of three Gods is true, and just because Papal Rome and her Protestant daughters are the One Catholic Church based upon the confessional Creeds, does not make them right in their Plato-Theology or their pagan Mystery Babylon ideology.

However they paint the trinity doctrine, and however it is pedaled and packaged, it is false doctrine and a pagan heresy. You may stay in the trinity and embrace Catholicism, that is a choice all have the freedom to make: but to call Apostolics a cult because we have rejected one of the BIGGEST cults and her daughters, is unfounded and a fear tactic to keep innocent souls in mental bondage and slavery to papal Rome and the Catholic Church. Abuse us if you will, but to us, Oneness Apostolics, there is ONE God, and as Jesus said in Revelation 1:8, He is the LORD GOD. That is my faith as a Oneness Apostolic and if you want to judge and condemn us for our faith, we are proud to be persecuted, denied, and hated for the name of Jesus Christ, who is God Almighty, the Alpha and the Omega.

Throughout church history a number of important creeds which are formal statements of belief based on false interpretation of Scripture and merging paganism with them, have held millions in mental bondage. The statements in the creeds are used to authenticate Papalism as orthodoxy and are denied by Apostolics like myself. What we deny, is that these Creeds state the true "orthodoxy" of the Old Testament and that of the True New Testament Apostolic Church as to God. The trinity in these creeds is not a revelation, it is a delusion based upon an illusion. The claimed "trinity orthodoxy" of the Papal Churches is NOT the "orthodoxy" of Judaism or original Christianity of the New Testament. To claim that it is, is a falsehood easily refuted as shown in many posts on this forum. God has never said He was three persons or three Gods any where in the Scriptures, and God should know!

The Papal Creeds contain the historical record of the trinitarian formation and beginning of three Gods in three persons. These pagan errors were not a part of the original faith of the Old Testament nor the New Testament Church. Why should these creeds and the philosophies of them now become an essential work for salvation for the world, saying that any person who does not believe the trinity of these Creeds is damned? Is it the "works" of believing in a creed that saves us, or faith in Jesus Christ? Let those who wail and cry about works for salvation, answer why the works of believing a trinity creed is salvation before or after faith in Jesus Christ. And why, if the creeds are true, must they be invented several hundred years after the Apostles died and they are not already in the New Testament? Is it because in all the New Testament there is not a single trinitarian found, they were all Monarchian? Since these Creeds are all founded upon the trinity, and the language placed within them constructed from paganism and the Plato-philosophy, it is of extreme importance for New Testament believers to know these creeds and then refute them with your Bible and simple logic.

The Nicene Creed 325 A.D.

The Nicene creed was developed against the teachings of Arias and subtly against the Monarchians. Arias taught that there was a time when the Father existed alone. He taught that the first creation of the Father was the Son, and indwelling the Son or the Word as a secondary body and Spirit essence, He created all things. Arias taught that there was a time when the Son was not, or how else could He be the first creation of God? The "twozie" believe ONE God created another God who then created the world, so that the God of Genesis 1:1 is the created second God, not the first God. They believe that at first God is unknown unless the second God reveals Him. Arias was a "twozie" and believed the very words Father and Son indicated the Father created the Son in eternity, in order to begat the Son. Arias also taught that the Holy Spirit was another essence and work of the Father, but he and many others could not determine if He (Holy Spirit) was another Son of God, or some other relationship (the Papal system would finalize this at the Council of Constantinople in 381 A.D.). Some early Catholics actually taught that there were two brothers in the trinity, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. And to hear some preach it, they make it appear like it could not be otherwise, one brother will send another brother to finish the work. The trinity was not denied by Arias, what he denied was that the trinity was "co-eternal" or from the beginning of the Father's own creation and existence. He taught that after the Son or Logos or Word was created by the Father, that the Son then as an essence of deity became co-existent from that time forward and then co-eternal from that time forward with the Father. A trinitarian father, Lactantius, in his Institutes says: "The Lord and Creator of all things, whom we have thought right to call God, since he made the second God, visible and sensible, Ch. VI." On the contray, the Monarchians have from ancient days among the Israelites before the New Testamant era, all denied any pagan concept of a trinity of deities. Oneness Apostolics have a legacy and a heritage although the trinitarians deny us this dignity, that they cannot claim. Therefore, I am not ashamed to deny that the theory of Arias is based upon Old or New Testament doctrine or practice. I am also not ashamed to deny that Plato or other trinitatrian pagan philosophies are not based upon Old or New Testament Scriptures. Using intimidation and turning some to hate Oneness Apostolics only causes those deceived to be damned, it does not hurt us at all. And I will not cry if some deny me based upon being deceived by traitors and the unsaved. But, those ordained to salvation by faith will come to the truth of the Oneness of God and no devil or deceiver can thwart them from receiving it and being saved (Acts 13:47-48).

The trinitarians under the leadership of Athanasius, an old enemy of Arias, brought out a theory from his Greek education in Plato's philosophy of the plurality within but yet one cosmos. In Platoism, all the PARTS of the cosmos came into existence at the same time and they were a unity of one. Therefore, applying this theory to the New Testament, meant that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and any myriads of unknown "elohims" (Gnosticism), could have come into existence at the same time, so that Arias could not say with precise exactitude that there was a time when the Son or the Holy Ghost was not and the Father dwelt alone. And, to have the Father creating the Son and the Son not being an emanation from the essence of the Father, Athanasius believed that reduced the Son from deity to a place among the created things like the angels. The issue then was "creation" of the Son as meaning begotten by the Father, or an "emanation" from the Father, at the precise moment the Father came into existence as God, as the meaning of begotten. So, there should be no difficulty seeing that in Athanasius' neoplatoism, there could be many gods with one "nature" in a unity of oneness and they would all share the same essence and could be called one God. ALL TRINITARIANS ESPOUSE THIS PLATO THEORY. They hide it, will not disclose it, and will even deny it, but history has already recorded it. What trinitarians claim as "orthodoxy", is Plato philosophy and pagan tritheism modified, to make the trinity doctrine easier for deceived Christians to swallow Mystery Babylon hook, line, and sinker.

Monarchians reject this theory. So the Monarchians have the Arians, the Trinity-Arians, and the Gnostics all solidly against us, calling us cults and heretics, all because we do not subscribe to their pagan Greek and Babylonian mystery theories. Is that a valid manner to treat Christians who trust in Christ for salvation, by calling and identifying us as a cult because we reject papal Rome's pagan based Creeds? If so, then call us Oneness Apostolics a cult, we will bear that indignity for our God and the name of Jesus Christ rather than join you trinitarians and allow you upon our sacred pulpits.

The word "God" then in this neoplatoism did not mean a numerical number of one Deity, but a unity of deities identified individually as persons (with separate names). But to say these separate persons were each a separate God, making the Christian faith a tritheism, was beyond what they knew a rational mind would accept with the Old Testament in their hands. Yes, they will run to the word "Elohim" as meaninng Gods plural, but they warp that into persons which the word "Elohim" does not speak. So we would have the word "GODS" each and every time the word "Elohim" is in the Scriptures, and even the most staunch trinitarians would never stoop so low. So why bring up the argument? The trinitarians have decided among themselves to teach the plurality in unity doctrine of Plato, but forbid themselves to say these are separate Gods. Just because they forbid themselves to say there are three Gods, does not make their separate God from God philosophy correct ot their creeds true. Now watch as you read through the Creeds how paganism is the unwritten philosphy behind the language, although you would never know unless this was pointed out. and if you cannot grasp this at this point, you have no business taking a stand for the trinity at all, since you would not know what you are talking about.

The Nicene Creed As Written in 325AD:

"I believe in one God the Father Almighty; Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten by the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one sibstance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He arose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory. to judge both the qick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end. [And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets. And in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen"] (The bracket portion in italic was added in 381AD at the Council of Constantinople)

The Athanasian Creed (Date: Unknown)

"We worship one God in trinity, and trinity in unity, neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For the person of the Father is one; of the Son, another; of the Holy Ghost, another. But the divinity of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is one, the glory equal, the majesty equal. Such as in the Father, such also is the Son, and such the Holy Spirit. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated. The Father is infinite, the Son is infinite, the Holy Spirit is infinite. The father is eternal, the Son is eternal, the Holy Spirit i s eternal. And yet there are not three etenal Beings, but one eternal Being. So also there are not three uncreated Beings, not three infinite Beings, but one uncreated and one infinite Being. In like manner, the Father is omnipotent, the Son is omnipotent, and the Holy Spirit is omnipotent. And yet there are not three omnipotent Beings, but one omnipotent Being. Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. and yet there are not three Gods, but one God only. The Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord. And yet there are not three Lords, but one Lord only. For as we are compelled by Christian truth to confess each person distinctively to be both God and Lord, we are prhibited by the Catholic religion to say that there are three Gods or Lords. The Father is made by none, nor created, nor begotten. The Son is from the Father alone, not made, not created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is not created by the Father and the Son, nor bebotten, butproceeds. Therefore, there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. and in this Trinity there is nothing prior or posterier, nothing greater or less, but all three persons are co-eternal and co-equal to themselves. So that through all, as was said above, both unity in trinity and trinity in unity is to be adored. Whoever would be saved, let him thus think concerning the Trinity."

The Chalcedonian Creed 451 AD

"We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable soul and body; consubstantial with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantail with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisbly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning have declared concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us."

The Apostle's Creed (Date Unknown)

"I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth; And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary. Suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell; The third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen."


The Monarchian doctrine of God follows the Old Testament. Simply that God is an indivisible numerical ONE. That this ONE God came to earth and was manifested as Jesus Christ (1Tim 3:16). Jesus claimed His Deity in Revelation 1:8. Any and all confusion as to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can be explained without need of a Plato pagan doctrine of tritheism or three separate Gods. The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are one God in three Manifestations. There is ONE God and ONE Spirit and this God and this Spirit as to time and eternity is Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Spirit in regeneration. There is only ONE God and the First Commandment forbids any plurality. There is absolutley no reason why if there were three Gods, this should be hid from the world in the Old Testament and come to us from a homosexual Greek philosopher and from Mystery Babylon. God asked the question (Isa 44:8): Is there a God beside Me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any. (Isa 43:10-11; 44:6-8; 45:5-6).

Just because there is some confusion caused by Jerome and others unterpolating the trinity and language of the trinity into Latin Vulgate and subsequently into the KJV and other versions, does not lend toward the authenticity of the three Gods theory taken from paganism and Plato. Jesus was not a second person incarnated into a human body. Jesus as a man never once confessed that his soul or Spirit was an eternal soul or Spirit of a second person of a trinity manifested in the flesh, but He always confessed that it was the FATHER or God in Him that doeth the works. He said when you have seen Me you have seen the Father (God). He could not say: When you have seen Me you have seen the second person in the trinity of Gods, or that it was the second person in the trinity in Him doing the work. Jesus was God because God was in Him in the fulness of all Deity (Col 2:9). The dual nature of Jesus as man and as God is the answer to the trinitarian riddles of papal Rome. No one can accept the trinity without becoming at that very moment a Catholic. The creeds state this, and those who use the Creeds to sustantiate their doctrines of the trinity proves they are Catholics. True Apostolics will die before they recant and go back to this whore and her daughters. It is better to live one second as a ONE God Apostolic than to live a life time as a trinitarian persecuting, abusing, and hating the Oneness Jesus name people with the only word they know "cult". This post does not deal with the Jewish and Gnostic heresies that Jesus was only a man and that He possed no Deity. If Jesus was not God He had no business claiming this in Revelation 1:8 and the prophecies of the Old Testament that pointed to His Messiahship as God manifested, would be false. The resurgence of this neognosticism in our day is of such a minor importance as to only give passing mention although trinitarians mistakingly lump Oneness Apostolics with those heretics. Beware of the trinitarians, the twozies, and the neo-gnostics. All of these in one or another deny Jesus as to His exclusive Deity. Only the Monarchians have the revelation of who Jesus really is.

(see The Trinity Debate pages 11-13, this forum)

[Amadeus]

PLEASE READ CAREFULLY HISWAY!

I have never believed in 3 Gods. ONLY ONE. I just happen to believe that He is not limited to being in one place at one time.

You mentioned the baptism of Christ: How would you explain that without the Trinity? IF God can only be in one place at one time, then Why was there a voice coming from the sky? Why didn't Jesus just say: "This is Me, with Whom I am well pleased?"

Why would the BIBLE ITSELF speak of Jesus being at the right hand of the Father if The father and Jesus are never separate from Oneanother?

I think you are getting hung-up on words, Hisway. You believe that there is a Holy spirit? The spirit of God that filled all believers at Pentacost, and that fills believers today? THE VERY ONE WE ARE BAPTISED IN? Right? Well, If God can only be in one place at one time, then there CANNOT be a Holy Ghost inside us all, because He could only pick one of us and He would have to leave Heaven to do It!

Trinitarians believe in ONE GOD, Hisway. LISTEN, don't just rant deafly.

Very concerned for your blood pressure,
Amadeus

[Aineo]

We have multiple threads going on the Trinity. We don't need another one especially one filled with outright lies.

Trinitarians do not believe in 3 gods. If you have not figured this our by now then you have a problem comprehending plain English.

Thread closed.