The Nicolaitane Doctrine

[hisway]

The early church in it's simplicity and simple faith in God, believed in ONE God; and that God was all in all to them. He was their Father in creation, their Saviour manifested in Jesus Christ and their Salvation in the form of the Holy Spirit "in" them. It was not until the death of the "original" apostles, and false apostles (Rev 2:2) entered the church, that the Godhead became an issue. These false apostles began to bring heresy into the church, attempting to "organize" the Christian Faith and exercise "control" over the laity. Such control and domination is not of the Spirit of God but is of the spirit of witchcraft. And that same spirit has been demonstrated by a few on this form on many threads especially pertaining to the subject of the Godhead. In Revelation 2:6 Jesus identified this in the first Church Age (Ephesus) as "the deeds of the Nicoliatanes". By the third Church Age (Pergamos) these "deeds" had become a "doctrine", called "the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes" (Rev 2:15). Now, most of the Christian movement had become "organized" under the "control" of man. Those opposing the teachings of this Nicolaitane (conquer the laity) form of Christianity were put to death.

The Nicolaitane influence continued to grow in the church, causing more and more controversy and division. Peter's prophecy had come to pass (2 Peter 2:1) and one of those damnable heresies that Peter warned about was the teaching of the doctrine of the trinity - three person concept of the Godhead. The early church did not believe in three persons in the Godhead. They believed in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost - simply believing that each was a "dispensational manifestation" of ONE and the same God. But with organized religion came intellectual theologians, without Spiritual revelation. They took it upon themselves to take the understanding of the Word out of the hands of the Holy Ghost and place it in the hands of the clergy of the organized church. Until finally, during the dark ages, the organized antichrist church forbid the ordinary person to read the Scriptures, causing them to depend entirely on the clergy for spiritual guidance or rather, misguidance.

Still, after 1700 years no other doctrine is as "sacred" to "traditional" organized Christianity (both Roman Catholic and Protestant) as the doctrine of the trinity. To the "traditional" Christian teaching of the three person concept of the Godhead is a "precious jewel" in their Christian confession. Dare anyone, even God Himself, challenge the Scripturalness of it. Most professing Christians turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to the truth of where the trinity - three person concept of God originated. The tradition of the elders have made a false trinity doctrine the cornerstone of the Christian Faith thereby replacing the true cornerstone - Jesus Christ, the ONE God manifest in the flesh. For this they will answer to God.

[Truth Seeker-Joshua]

Peace His,

Im gonna respond to your post. But it has been your past track record not to respond to people who refute you. But I will anyways.

The early church in it's simplicity and simple faith in God, believed in ONE God; and that God was all in all to them. He was their Father in creation, their Saviour manifested in Jesus Christ and their Salvation in the form of the Holy Spirit "in" them. It was not until the death of the "original" apostles, and false apostles (Rev 2:2) entered the church, that the Godhead became an issue. These false apostles began to bring heresy into the church, attempting to "organize" the Christian Faith and exercise "control" over the laity. Such control and domination is not of the Spirit of God but is of the spirit of witchcraft. And that same spirit has been demonstrated by a few on this form on many threads especially pertaining to the subject of the Godhead.

You always make great statements such as this one. but offer no shread of proof to back it up.

(Rev 2:2) entered the church, that the Godhead became an issue.

Rev 2:2 does NOT even discuss the Godhead or Trinity and their "possible" relation to false prophets.

The Nicoliatane influence continued to grow in the church, causing more and more controversy and division. Peter's prophecy had come to pass (2 Peter 2:1) and one of those damnable heresies that Peter warned about was the teaching of the doctrine of the trinity - three person concept of the Godhead

Wrong again His. 2 Peter 2:1 does NOT discuss the the doctrine of the Trinity.
I would actually like you to find anywhere in the books of Peter where he warned about teaching the doctrine of the Trinity.

In those words "WARNING ABOUT TEACHING THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY"

Still, after 1700 years no other doctrine is as "sacred" to "traditional" organized Christianity (both Roman Catholic and Protestant) as the doctrine of the trinity.

I am a Lutheran; an organized religion, and our most "sacred" docrtine is the Holy Bible.

To the "traditional" Christian teaching of the three person concept of the Godhead is a "precious jewel" in their Christian confession.

Our "precious jewel" in our confession is that Jesus Christ is our Savior and Lord.

Dare anyone, even God Himself, challenge the Scripturalness of it. Most professing Christians turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to the truth of where the trinity - three person concept of God originated.

His, your statements are at times funny, but do get down right annoying. If you did NOT MENTALLY CREATE the above statement, I would like you to provide some proof of any religous scholar who spitted it.

Problem is Hisway, you putting words in the mouths of Christians who belong to organized denominations.

Even worse, your injecting your own belief and words into scriptures.

Didn't Jesus say, "Do not judge them, for you not know whats in their hearts"?

Most professing Christians turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to the truth of where the trinity -

For this they will answer to God.

So why are you judging?

Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Isreal

[Aineo]

Your whole premise is faulty and lacks any real understanding of what the Nicolaitans believed and taught.

NICOLAITANS

(nik-o-la'-i-tanz) Nikolaitai): A sect or party of evil influence in early Christianity, especially in the 7 churches of Asia.

1. The Sect: Their doctrine was similar to that of Balaam, "who taught Balak to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication" (Revelation 2:14-15). Their practices were strongly condemned by John, who praised the church in Ephesus for "hating their works" (Revelation 2:6), and blamed the church in Pergamum for accepting in some measure their teaching (Revelation 2:15). Except that reference is probably made to their influence in the church at Thyatira also, where their leader was "the woman Jezebel, who calleth herself a prophetess" (Revelation 2:20; compare verse 14), no further direct information regarding them is given in Scripture.
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

The early church was under the control and leadership of men; the apostles were the first leaders and each of the apostles discipled, trained, and appointed teachers to oversee each church they founded.

But with organized religion came intellectual theologians, without Spiritual revelation. They took it upon themselves to take the understanding of the Word out of the hands of the Holy Ghost and place it in the hands of the clergy of the organized church. Until finally, during the dark ages, the organized antichrist church forbid the ordinary person to read the Scriptures, causing them to depend entirely on the clergy for spiritual guidance or rather, misguidance.

The United Pentecostal Church is an organized religion that has chosen to build doctrines on verses filled with generalities taken from a book that is mainly historical with little real theology contained within its brief historical account.

The Trinity is a Spiritual revelation found in the writings of the NT and is plainly discernable to those not blinded by an organized religion that has chosen to ignore everything the Spirit revealed to the apostles concerning spiritual gifts of which speaking in tongues is only one of many that edifies the church.

Your anger and bitterness aimed at those who disagree with you has blinded you to God’s truth as has the false doctrine you adhere to. Also as Truth Seeker-Joshua posted none of the NT writters spoke against the doctrine of the Trinity since it is their writings that reveal the truth of this doctrine.

[hisway]

Im gonna respond to your post. But it has been your past track record not to respond to people who refute you. But I will anyways.

I have posted about 100 replies on numerous threads to those who have refuted me. Have a look if you please.

1. The early church in it's simplicity and simple faith in God, believed in ONE God; and that God was all in all to them. He was their Father in creation, their Saviour manifested in Jesus Christ and their Salvation in the form of the Holy Spirit "in" them.

2. It was not until the death of the "original" apostles, and false apostles (Rev 2:2) entered the church, that the Godhead became an issue. These false apostles began to bring heresy into the church, attempting to "organize" the Christian Faith and exercise "control" over the laity". Such control and domination is not of the Spirit of God but is of the spirit of witchcraft.

3. And that same spirit has been demonstrated by a few on this form on many threads especially pertaining to the subject of the Godhead.

You always make great statements such as this one. but offer no shread of proof to back it up.

I have quoted respectful sources to verify my claims. See my posts "FEW WERE SAVED BY WATER" (7 historical sources quoted), "Modalism: Heresy Or Catholic Pesecution Of Truth?" (3 sources quoted), and "THE HERESY OF THE TRINITY" (4 Creeds quoted). I have also supported my arguments with Scripture extensively. In the 13 Page Trinity Debate Thread, pages 11-13 most notably, I presented the ultimate argument proving the fallacy of the trinity to which no one there addressed but deliberately avoided. Below I will show the proof for each of my statements as you quoted as they are numbered for reference:

1. Simply refer to what I already posted about the Oneness of God in the 13 Page Trinity Debate thread as well as in "God is One not 3!" threads. For the sake of not being redundant which I have done many times already I succinctly made my statement above. I have posted enough on the subject of the Godhead that is readily available for anyone to check out.


2. In this statement, I succinctly presented a commonly known historical fact. Anyone who is aware of the Catholic Church knows heresy crept into the early church. And since this is the "Christian Debate Forum" I assumed those participating in this forum are at the least professing Christians well aware of this fact. Rev 2:2 records and identifies when the false teachings started to come into the church which corresonds to the same time the trinity doctrine came into being. History has proven the trinity doctrine was unheard of hitherto the third and fourth centuries among other false teachings which were also brought in at that time. The false teachings among them is the trinity which comes under the Nicolaitane deeds and then doctrine which is defined as the "exercise of control over the laity"

3. That "control" influence is driven by the spirit of witchcraft. Other examples of that spirit can be found in the "Femininist" and "Homosexual" movements. And its sad to say but that spirit is alive and well on this forum. And I am not the only one who thinks so on this forum. Kingzon, Snipe, and BradtheImpaler have all commented in their posts to the same effect. They did not call it witchcraft but they have identified the "control" and "domineering" aspects of it. See the Trinity Debate threads and Distinct Person thread. See for yourself.

(Rev 2:2) entered the church, that the Godhead became an issue.

Rev 2:2 does NOT even discuss the Godhead or Trinity and their "possible" relation to false prophets.

Rev 2:2 does not mention "trinity" in particular but the fact "trinity" is not mentioned once in Scripture has not stopped many people from believing in it either. The point is this, false teachings came into the church and among those teachings is the trinity doctrine.

The Nicoliatane influence continued to grow in the church, causing more and more controversy and division. Peter's prophecy had come to pass (2 Peter 2:1) and one of those damnable heresies that Peter warned about was the teaching of the doctrine of the trinity - three person concept of the Godhead

Wrong again His. 2 Peter 2:1 does NOT discuss the the doctrine of the Trinity.
I would actually like you to find anywhere in the books of Peter where he warned about teaching the doctrine of the Trinity.

In those words "WARNING ABOUT TEACHING THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY"

Peter did not warn about the trinity doctrine because it had not yet been fabricated. How could he? In fact, I would go so far as to say the thought of a three person Godhead of three Gods would have been beyond his wildest imagination to ponder. Peter warned of heresy and that is what the trinity is. If you look closer at what I said (I highlighted above in bold) you will notice I said the trinity was "one those damnable heresies" Peter warned about.

Still, after 1700 years no other doctrine is as "sacred" to "traditional" organized Christianity (both Roman Catholic and Protestant) as the doctrine of the trinity.

I am a Lutheran; an organized religion, and our most "sacred" docrtine is the Holy Bible.

To the "traditional" Christian teaching of the three person concept of the Godhead is a "precious jewel" in their Christian confession.

Our "precious jewel" in our confession is that Jesus Christ is our Savior and Lord.

Then why is the trinity so vehemently defended even in the light of reasonable argument? I must tell you, I never dreamed before coming on this forum I would witness such opposition to the Oneness doctrine from trinitarians. You say your "precious jewel" is your confession that Jesus Christ is your Saviour and yet by your confession of the trinity you deny Him and His Name. The trinity promotes Him as a "junior" God inferior to the other so-called members. It denies His Name in water baptism. Read carefully my posts in the 13 page Trinity Debate thread (notably pages 10-13). Pray and ask God for confirmation. God will confirm His Truth. "Seek and ye shall find" Tradition can be harder to break than herion addiction. It will take God's grace and Spiritual revelation to break it.

Dare anyone, even God Himself, challenge the Scripturalness of it. Most professing Christians turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to the truth of where the trinity - three person concept of God originated.

His, your statements are at times funny, but do get down right annoying. If you did NOT MENTALLY CREATE the above statement, I would like you to provide some proof of any religous scholar who spitted it.

I admit I can be dramatic at times.

Problem is Hisway, you putting words in the mouths of Christians who belong to organized denominations.

Even worse, your injecting your own belief and words into scriptures.

Didn't Jesus say, "Do not judge them, for you not know whats in their hearts"?

Most professing Christians turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to the truth of where the trinity -

For this they will answer to God.

So why are you judging?

Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Isreal

I do not judge you or others. God is the judge. And before God sends judgement He gives warning. And God uses His servants in giving warning. The time is at hand. The end times are here - this is the one thing most everyone in Christianity agrees on. Christ is coming back for a church without spot or wrinkle, a glorious church. But a church filled with heresy and void of the Spirit is not a glorious church. The common thread that binds so much of Christianity to the Catholic harlot is the trinity doctrine and it must be severed lest they partake in Her judgement. The Israelites killed the prophets God sent them because they came with bad news the Israelites did not want to hear. Like it or not ( in season or out of season) some things must be said. I would not be on this forum if I did not care.

[Aburaees]

For The Attention Of Hisway,

I have been following these threads with interest and I think Omega made a good point in one of his posts, and I am yet to see anyone answer the point that he made.

Omega asked how could the witness of Jesus and the witness of the Father be accepted as "the witness of two" if they were only one person.

If you have already answered his point in another place, I apologise for bringing it up again.

John 8:17 ends with
"the witness of two men is true"

John 8:18
"I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me."

From these verses it is clear that Jesus and the Father are two different persons.

In my opinion this is the best point that has been made against the modalist view, and like I said, I think it was Omega who raised it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[(Omega)]

hisway cannot answer me because it is IRREFUTABLE!

[Truth Seeker-Joshua]

Peace all

In this statement, I succinctly presented a commonly known historical fact.

This is my point Hisway, can you show me where this is historical fact?

The false teachings among them is the trinity which comes under the Nicolaitane deeds and then doctrine which is defined as the "exercise of control over the laity"
That "control" influence is driven by the spirit of witchcraft.

And more proof on this one. Mainly the bolded sentence.

Peter warned of heresy and that is what the trinity is. If you look closer at what I said (I highlighted above in bold) you will notice I said the trinity was "one those damnable heresies" Peter warned about.

But yet in all of your posts, you have not proven that The Trinity is "one those damnable heresies"

You say your "precious jewel" is your confession that Jesus Christ is your Saviour and yet by your confession of the trinity you deny Him and His Name. The trinity promotes Him as a "junior" God inferior to the other so-called members. It denies His Name in water baptism.

Im gonna be honest with you Hisway. If you can't figure out how someone would profess that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, and still acknowledge God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost; than thats your problem.

NO WHERE, have I ever said that you have to believe in the Trinity for salvation. Therefore I wont judge. As I said above, "Do not judge the sinful, for you not know what lay in their hearts." (Quote from the most famous person to ever walk the earth, Jesus Christ).

You think that Trinitarians deny Jesus, as you said above.
How do you know what is in my heart?
Salvation is with Jesus Christ and in Jesus Christ alone.

I think the problem non-trinitarians have is: they think they Have God all figured out. And if there is something that cant be explained by "their" evidence, then it is simply "witch craft".

Problem is, non of us have God "figured out". Is it really hard to believe that The Alimighty Father "can't" manifest himself in different forms all over the world?

Is it too hard to believe that His Holy Ghost is not always with us?

Read what is professed in the Trinity
God The Father
God The Son
and God the Holy Ghost

Notice how we DONT say:
God The Father
and Jesus; that other god
and The Holy Ghost; that other god

Which is what non-trinitarians and mus1ims like to believe, that we worship a paganist form of 3 gods.

Yet if you would simply read what is said and written, you would find that it is NOT true.

Here are a couple of other cases:

1 Cor 2:10 But God has revealed it to us by His Holy Spirit.

Notice it is "His" Holy Spirit, and not "that other god; the holy spirit.

1 Corinthians 12: 7-11 Now to teach the manifestations of the Spirit if given for the common good... All these things are the work of one and the same Spirit, and He gives to each one, just as He determines.

Notice how it does not say, "all these things are the work of 3 spirits".

Now Hisway, I hate to break it to you. But even though the Apostles Creed is not Biblical doctrine, it is the Truth.

Now read this carefully, word for word, to refute your own statements.

The Apostle's Creed
I believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the virgin mary,
suffered under pontius pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day He rose again from the dead.
He ascended into Heaven,
and sits at the right hand of
God the Father Almighty.
From thence He will come to
judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Christian chruch,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the Body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

Now remember Hisway, you said that Trinitarians deny Jesus, and that HE is Lord.
But look at the Apostle's Creed, I am acknowledging the Trinity, and at the same time professing that Jesus is Lord. (Notice bold)

How could that be? Could it be that your wrong?

Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Isreal

[Persecuted]

Abur-

How could the witness of Jesus and the witness of the Father be accepted as "the witness of two" if they were only one person?

Because Christ beared witness by speech/word and God beared witness by the miracles that were done by Christ...

Testimony was the first witness and miracles were the second...

[Aburaees]

Abur-

How could the witness of Jesus and the witness of the Father be accepted as "the witness of two" if they were only one person?

Because Christ beared witness by speech/word and God beared witness by the miracles that were done by Christ...

Testimony was the first witness and miracles were the second...

Ok, so that is an explanation, albeit an apologetic one in the opinion of many.
Most people would take "the witness of two" to be a literal condition just as it was meant when it was revealed in the old covenant.

Using the same reasoning one person could, under Jewish law, provide his word as a witness and his action as a second witness.

That would make one person witnessing twice.

But the law demanded that two persons should witness once each for it to be taken as true.

[(Omega)]

Abur-

How could the witness of Jesus and the witness of the Father be accepted as "the witness of two" if they were only one person?

Because Christ beared witness by speech/word and God beared witness by the miracles that were done by Christ...

Testimony was the first witness and miracles were the second...

Then you have a false witness, Christ explicitly stated that the Testimony of two men(persons) are True, miracles is not a person. Read carefully!
According to you, Jesus and the Father are the same person. Now if Christ beared witness by speech/word and God beared witness by the miracles that were done by Christ, then He bears witness of HIMSELF!! since according to you He is ONE PERSON!

What does Christ HIMSELF say???

If I bear witness of (myself), my witness is not true. (John5:31)

God Bless!

[(Omega)]

BTW, The LORD told me that a familiar spirit of error will arrive.

[Persecuted]

Well, if you say both of them are One God, the it would still be one testimony and not two. By the witness of two also would be two different people or individuals (two people).

Following your train of thought, that would make Christ and the Father not one but two...

May I ask what is meant by the familiar spirit of error?

[(Omega)]

Well, if you say both of them are One God, the it would still be one testimony and not two. By the witness of two also would be two different people or individuals (two people).

Following your train of thought, that would make Christ and the Father not one but two...

May I ask what is meant by the familiar spirit of error?

What is a familiar spirit, and what saith the Scriptures?

You have just demonstrated that your theology is flawed, you yourself
admitted by trying to find error in the Truth, that if I what I said is incorrect then your is also!

However mines is not incorrect, do you want me to show you scriptures how God is One In Unity?
I can both show you scriptures that will absolutely prove that Christ is not only Deity, but distinct from the Father as well, thus proving my Point that God is ONE IN UNITY!

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (DEITY)

John 6:38 - For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.(DISTINCTION)

You responded, and now I will utterly refute you!

2 Timothy 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Since you want to play games and redefine Scriptures, I will put your theology to shame because you have not studied yourself approved unto God.

God Bless!

[hisway]

I accidently double posted

[hisway]

For The Attention Of Hisway,


Omega asked how could the witness of Jesus and the witness of the Father be accepted as "the witness of two" if they were only one person.

If you have already answered his point in another place, I apologise for bringing it up again.

John 8:17 ends with
"the witness of two men is true"

John 8:18
"I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me."

From these verses it is clear that Jesus and the Father are two different persons.

In my opinion this is the best point that has been made against the modalist view, and like I said, I think it was Omega who raised it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I have explained this very issue many times over (see the closed 13 page Trinity Debate thread, pages 10-13). But for the sake of Truth I will explain again from the beginning. Before I get into that I would like to set a foundation for understanding about the Oneness of God.

In understanding the Oneness of God one must first start with the precept that there is ONE God. Read and meditate on the Scriptures where He states He is One God over and over again until it becomes inscribed into the very tissues of your heart. (see Isaiah 43:10; 44:6; 45:5; 45:14; 45:21-22; 46:9). Pray and ask for revelation with a sincere heart. Meditate on His Divine attributes: Omniscient - All Knowing, Omnipresent -present in all places at the same time, Omnipotent - having all power and authority, Eternal - having no beginning, God cannot lie, God cannot die, God is just, and He is the Lord that cannot change His attributes (Mal 3:6). If God can change even one of these attributes (eg "omnipresent") then He would be able to change the others (eg "to tell a lie"). So if God can set aside His attribute of being omnipresent then He could also be capable of telling a lie or lying, etc. Once this precept of Truth is set then it is possible to build upon it for doctrine (Isa 28:9,10,13).

Before there was an angel, a star, a moon, or the earth - there was God, in Eternity - the Great Eternal invisible Spirit, dwelling alone by Himself. "...before Me there was no God [el] formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside Me there is no saviour." (Isa 43:10,11). "...I am the first, and I am the last; and beside Me there is no God [elohiym]. Is there a God [elohiym] beside Me? yea, there is no God [eloahh] ; I know not any." (Isa 44:6,8) There was no co-eternal Son or another co-eternal Spirit but ONE Spirit alone.

However, trinitarians point out the use of the plural pronoun "elohiym", saying it conclusively indicates "persons" in the Godhead. "Elohiym", however, is also used to depict other O.T. deities (whether real or imaginary). Baal, (Judges 6:31) and Beelzebub, (2 Kings 1:2) are both called "elohiym", but they were not trinities. Therefore the word, "elohiym" does not express a plurality of persons but of attributes and of majesty. In ancient theatres of hundreds of years ago an actor could be called "elohiym" because it was the custom for one actor to portray many characters in the same play, simply by changing from one mask to another - but he was still ONE person, playing many different characters. So then, the use of 'elohiym" is God's way of indicating, not a plurality of persons, but of offices or manifestations of the same God. Down through the ages, since the beginning of time, God has revealed Himself to man in many different "forms" and different ways. But He forever remains the ONE and self-same Being. With "carnal" understanding this simple concept is missed but with Spiritual Revelation, the Believer starts with the ONE Eternal Spirit - for God is a Spirit - He is the Holy Spirit; and out of the Holy Spirit came the Fatherhood dispensation, the Sonship dispensation and the Holy Ghost (Spirit) dispensation - three manifestations of the ONE God. God above us in the Fatherhood; God with us in the Sonship; and God in us by the Holy Ghost.

So God as the ONE Eternal Spirit dwelt alone with His thoughts before creation. There was still no "WORD" (as spoken of in John 1:1) because God had not yet expressed His thoughts - a 'word' is a thought expressed. ("WORD" in the Greek is logos and means "divine expression") Before expressing His Great Eternal thoughts He devised a plan and a purpose for the creation of the angels, the universe and mankind. He rehearsed that plan from it's beginning to it's ending - knowing every aspect of it - even the "fall of man" thereby producing (in His thoughts) the "Lamb slain BEFORE the foundation of the world" (Rev 13:8). In the mind of God "the works were finished from the foundation of the world" (Hebrews 4:3)

Then one day God "expressed" His thoughts and the WORD appeared in Logos-Pillar of Fire form - like a Son before the doorstep of His Father; yet, not another person, but an "attribute" of the fullness of God - the image of God in Logos-Word form. God was made visible in the universe. And in this Anointed Logos form He created ALL things. In the fullness of time He would condescend to be manifested in flesh and be called "Jesus, the Christ". All that was in God - the Great Eternal Spirit, was poured into Christ. All that was in Christ (in the form of the Holy Ghost) was poured into the Bride of Christ. Thus, it is "Christ in us", the hope of glory. See? It's one Person, One God, just changing His form. He appeared to Israel in a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day. As the Angel of the Covenant He lived in that pillar of fire and led Israel through the wilderness. At the temple He announced His coming with a great cloud. Then one day He was manifested in a virgin born body that was prepared for Him (Hebrews 10:5). The God that tabernacled above the tents of Israel now took on Himself a tent of flesh and tabernacled as a man amongst men. But He was the SAME GOD.

So what happened when God manifested Himself in flesh? He was the invisible God manifest in a visible reduced form of Himself. He was omnipresent Spirit dwelling in heaven at the same time dwelling in a human body (see pages 10-13 Trinity debate thread). As man He had all the attributes of a man as a limited being but as God He indwelt that body as well as remained co-existing in heaven. So what we have is the ONE God co-existing in two forms at the same time. The invisible form (Spirit) and the visible form (flesh - human). So how could Jesus fullfill the witness of Himself and the Father? Because God existed in two forms at the same time and each form gave witness to the other. It is that simple. It is well within the realms of His Divine attribute of being Omnipresent for God to be in heaven and on earth at the same time. Each form of God, the Spirit and the human, could legally fullfill the terms of the two person witness because each form exibited God's personality.

Another point in question is the scene of Jesus praying in the Garden of Gethsemane - to whom did He pray?. The key to simplify the understanding of this scenario is in recognizing His Deity and His humanity. Jesus was not praying to Himself. If He were an ordinary man - born of sin, that would have been the case; but Jesus was NOT an ordinary man - He was God and man. He had a dual nature and was performing a dual role. In Jesus, it was His humanity praying to His Divinity - a man praying to the God that He was. A God that was both in Him and in heaven (John 14:10, Matt 12:50). I have explained this numerous times and can be viewed on other threads in more detail.

[hisway]

Double posted again. See Below.

[hisway]

hisway cannot answer me because it is IRREFUTABLE!

I have answered this and proved you wrong over and over again in numerous posts and threads. Those with a humble heart will grasp the Truth of the Oneness of God. The fallacy of that Roman riddle called "the holy trinity" has been exposed for what it really is: a pagan three-headed monstrosity. It is anything but "holy". In fact, the Bible speaks of "three unclean spirits" like frogs, coming out of the mouth of the Dragon, the Beast and the fasle prophet (Rev 16:13). The True Prophet of God said to this End Time Age that these "three unclean spirits" is the "three person trinity" teaching which was introduced into the Church in 325 AD. It is one of the biggest deceptions which the devil has pushed over on the church since the Serpent persuaded Eve that the fruit of the forbidden tree would make her wise 'like God'

The truth that a belief in a trinity of "Three Persons" in the Godhead in modern language is nothing less than tritheism - a belief in three gods. And that Truth has now been accepted by most Christian intellectuals for decades.

The distinguished theologian, Dr. Hans Kung said:

"The monotheistic faith taken over from Israel...must never be abandoned in any doctrine of the Trinity. There is no God but God."

"Being A Christian", (1976, p.446)

[Aineo]

hisway, you have not proven anything other than you are quick to make claims you cannot backup or prove. As to this:

The distinguished theologian, Dr. Hans Kung said:

"The monotheistic faith taken over from Israel...must never be abandoned in any doctrine of the Trinity. There is no God but God."

"Being A Christian", (1976, p.446)

My only response is:

2 Timothy 4:1-8
4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing. NAS

2 Peter 2:1-3
2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. NAS

[(Omega)]

Lets see if you can pay attention hisway!

Two forms is NOT TWO WITNESSES!
Two forms would still make ONE PERSON!!!
Jesus said that the Testimony of TWO PERSONS not TWO FORMS!!

Once again, re-read what JESUS HIMSELF SAID:

If I bear witness of (myself), my witness is not true. (John5:31)

If the other witness is the other form then He would still be bearing witness of HIMSELF!! Therefore His witness could NOT BE TRUE, and you have openly called Him a liar!!

And for the umpteenth time, whose will was it, Jesus or the Father?
And according to you, one will was Divine while the other was Human, nonetheless, same person making it HIS WILL!!!

John 6:38 - For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

2 Timothy 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

You Lost hisway, in your desperate attempts to deny this you will go as far out to re-define Scriptures as possible, the three unclean spirits are the Demonic Trinity and not the Triune God. I would be EXTREMELY CAREFUL in making such statements. Demonic Trinity:Beast, Antichrist and the Dragon, who else wants to be as the True God?

God Bless!

[Persecuted]

Would two witnesses denote two people?

Or could it also be deemed two people talking from one source?
(I.e if I state something, and then a different voice/person says it out of my mouth) is not this still one witness?

This is not a rebuttal, just trying to understand your logic...

[Aineo]

Would two witnesses denote two people?

Or could it also be deemed two people talking from one source?
(I.e if I state something, and then a different voice/person says it out of my mouth) is not this still one witness?

This is not a rebuttal, just trying to understand your logic...

Repeating what someone else states is called hearsay and is not admissible as a witness. It takes 2 people to constitute 2 witnesses and miracles are events or evidence of Jesus’ deity and do not qualify as a witness under Jewish law.

[Persecuted]

So then, how does One God bear witness twice (Him and His Father)?

[Aineo]

So then, how does One God bear witness twice (Him and His Father)?

You have two of the three persons of the Triune God that is one God. If you noticed how you used the personal pronoun “His” for whom the oneness group wants us to believe is an “it” or a manifestation of the one God. Manifestations are not born, die, are resurrected, or worshipped.

[Persecuted]

With that being said, how can God bear witness twice?
If the Father (God) and the Son (that same God) bears witness?

Then who was the second witness, being as though there is only one God who beared witness? Unless the Son is not the same God, then only God beared witness, meaning one witness.

[Aineo]

With that being said, how can God bear witness twice?
If the Father (God) and the Son (that same God) bears witness?

Then who was the second witness, being as though there is only one God who beared witness? Unless the Son is not the same God, then only God beared witness, meaning one witness.

:D Omega is doing an excellent job of explaining how the Father and the Son are two witnesses and are the same God. The problem is that those who refuse to open their minds to the concept are hung up on the single word "one".

Sit down with your Bible and list the titles used for Jesus and the titles used for God; they are identical. Study the Gospel of John. Jesus said that whatever we ask Him in His name He will do and whatever we ask the Father in Jesus’ name will be done.

John 14:13-14
13 "And whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. NAS

John 15:16
16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you. NAS

So we have 2 persons fulfilling the same request. We are instructed to pray to the Father in the name of the Son and in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:26-27

26 And in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. NAS

Romans 8:33-35
33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. NAS

Ephesians 6:18
18 With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit,..NAS

Those who ignore God’s word in abide by dictionaries and theologians are missing what is being taught in God’s word.

John 8:31-32
"If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. " NAS

John 15:4-10
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it shall be done for you. 8 "By this is My Father glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love. NAS

[Persecuted]

Can you answer the question?

[(Omega)]

Hello Snipes!

With that being said, how can God bear witness twice?
If the Father (God) and the Son (that same God) bears witness?

Then who was the second witness, being as though there is only one God who beared witness? Unless the Son is not the same God, then only God beared witness, meaning one witness.

They both bear witness, both Testimony are true and both are the Same Testimony, (One Testimony) given by two witnesses!

John 12:49 - For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

God Bless!

[Persecuted]

That makes sense...

[(Omega)]

Yes, me and another member on this forum can both deliver the SAME ONE TESTIMONY, that is the One Truth!

[hisway]

Manifestations are not born, die, are resurrected, or worshipped.

"And the Lord appeared unto him [Abraham] in the plains of Mamre...And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My Lord..." (Genesis 18:1-2)

Here the Lord appeared to Abraham in a manifestation of an angelic form. And not only did Abraham bow toward the ground in worship of the manifestation of the Lord; but offered the Lord a meal and the Lord and the other two angels did eat (verses 4-8).

"And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him [Moses] in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, here I am. And He [the Lord] said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground....And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God." (Exodus 3:2-6)

Here God appeared to Moses in the form of the Angel of Lord manifested as fire in a burning bush. Notice God in manifested form demanded reverence (worship) as God in that form by demanding that Moses not draw close and take off his shoes for the ground he stood upon was holy. Notice also Moses hid his face because he was afraid to look upon God.

What these two examples clearly show is that a manifestation of God is to be worshipped as if the very person of God is there. This is what a manifestation of the Lord God is: the very person of God Himself in reduced visible form. A manifestation of the Lord must be treated as a "person" but not a separate and distinct person. This goes back to the witness of two of Jesus as a man (God in manifested in visible form) bearing witness to the invisible Spirit form.

Even according to the trinity Jesus as a man was a co-eternal Spirit manifested in the flesh. That is a manifestation of God who was born, died, resurrected and worshipped. This is no different in Oneness except in Oneness God did not need a second God to do it. If your rule applies to the trinity why would it not apply the same way in Oneness? According to the "two witness" rule; in the trinity we have a man (the co-eternal Son in the flesh) bearing witness to a Spirit - not the two man witness required under Jewish Law. So this two person argument is moot and not even worth debating. You don't even understand the riddle of your doctrine.

The "two witness" rule applies in the case of Oneness as much as it would in a fabricated trinity. You contradict yourself here as you usually do by saying a manifested form of God cannot be worshipped or be born, die, and resurrected. But even in a trinity the Son was a man manifested from a Spirit. The Bible says God was manifested in the flesh. Of course God as manifested as a human would have all the human attributes as a human. A manifesation of God whether Oneness or trinity the rules are the same as far as what a manifestation is. To make a manifestation of God a "distinct person" is not necessary for a manifestation of God is fully God in personality thus worthy of all the worship and reverance as God because it is God in reduced visible form.

[hisway]

Double posted again.

[hisway]

With that being said, how can God bear witness twice?
If the Father (God) and the Son (that same God) bears witness?

Then who was the second witness, being as though there is only one God who beared witness? Unless the Son is not the same God, then only God beared witness, meaning one witness.

The point is well made. Whether Oneness or trinity the concept is the same: One God bearing witness to Himself. I explained in my reply to Aineo above.

They both bear witness, both Testimony are true and both are the Same Testimony, (One Testimony) given by two witnesses!

John 12:49 - For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

You have made the same contradiction as Aineo which I pointed out and well proved above in my reply to him. You cannot have it both ways. This whole argument is moot.

[hisway]

Double posted again. There is something wrong.

[hisway]

The false teachings among them is the trinity which comes under the Nicolaitane deeds and then doctrine which is defined as the "exercise of control over the laity"

That "control" influence is driven by the spirit of witchcraft.

And more proof on this one. Mainly the bolded sentence.

To get into a full explanation of the spirit of witchcraft is beyond the scope of topic of this thread. The exercise of "control" over another is a form of witchcraft. It is the opposite of "Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty". God wants his people to experience liberty and freedom. Witchcraft wants to hold in bondage in rebellion against God. Spiritual discernment does not come from studying a book. It is by the Spirit.

You think that Trinitarians deny Jesus, as you said above.
How do you know what is in my heart?
Salvation is with Jesus Christ and in Jesus Christ alone.

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 10:10)

What a man believes in his heart can be told by what he confesses. To confess a trinity is to confess three Gods. Why have I said trinitarians deny Jesus? First of all in the trinity Jesus is presented as a lesser God than the other two. For the full explanation of this argument see the closed Trinity Debate thread, pages 9-13. For a co-eternal Spirit Son to become a man and loose his divine attributes of being Omnipresent (present at all times in all places), Omnipotent (having all power and authority) and Omniscient (all knowing) as in the case of a trinity Son, He could not have been a co-equal member with the Father thus a lessor God from eternity less in power and authority and other attributes - a limited God which is blasphemy. This is the ultimate root of the fallacy of the trinity which I exposed in that thread. As a result, the name of Jesus is denied in water baptism and in general. Read my exhortation posts "Jesus Is His Name". Much of Christianity has been stripped of the name of Jesus and thus stripped of Spiritual power which has held the church in bondage while the devil gets a free ride. The Church exists far below Her intended potential and souls are being lost to false religions and unbelief because the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost is lost. The Church has limited God like the Israelites did in the wilderness. The Church is in a spiritual wilderness. Tell me, if Jesus is not the revealed name of the ONE God then what is the name of the Father - could it be Yahweh of Jehovah? These are the reasons I have so much against the trinity.

I think the problem non-trinitarians have is: they think they Have God all figured out. And if there is something that cant be explained by "their" evidence, then it is simply "witch craft".

I do not claim I have God all figured out but one thing I am certain: He is ONE God who has ONE name. And that God is Jesus. How can you get to know someone if you do not even know their name? Jesus will profess to many "I never knew you, depart from me" The "many" professed to know Him and called Him "Lord". Ever since I first came to the Lord, my calling has been a ministry in "John the Baptist" style. I feel strongly God has led me in this way - calling the church to repent and make straight the path of the Lord. This is the way God has chosen to use me. God has anointed me to minister in this way. I do not know why. But if I come on strong it is because the pressing of the hand of Lord on me is strong. Jesus offended many people as I know I do here at times. But sometimes to get someone to wake up you have to give them a shake. We are in the "lukewarm" age of the church. You say you what evidence of what I claim. Simply look at mainstream Christianity and compare to the Book of Acts. Where are the healings today on the scale witnessed in the Book of Acts? Where is the Spiritual power of the church compared to the early church in the Book of Acts? As heresy crept into the church the power of the Spirit left. You do not need to be a theologian to see what has happened. That is the reason charismatic evangelists fill stadiums and the churches are empty. People are starving for the power and demostration of the Holy Ghost. The devil has even used this to get people to turn to the powers of darkness. The church has responded by trying to do battle according to the flesh and conforming to the world instead of the power of the Spirit. In order for the power of the Spirit to come back, heresy must leave.

Problem is, non of us have God "figured out". Is it really hard to believe that The Alimighty Father "can't" manifest himself in different forms all over the world?

This is exactly what the Oneness doctrine is: ONE God manifesting Himself in different forms (not three Gods).

Is it too hard to believe that His Holy Ghost is not always with us?

If as a born-again believer the Holy Ghost is not with us we are lost. The Church without the Holy Ghost is reduced to the position of a shorn Samson. The evidence the Holy Ghost is present is the witness of the power of the Spirit. For ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost has come upon you. What kind of Power? Power to cast out devils, to speak in tongues, to lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. Of course the fruit of the Spirit will also be evident. That is way Pentecostalism is the fasting growing Christian movement. Because the signs are following the believers, people are getting healed, devils are being cast out, and people are being delivered from all manner of bondage and wretchedness.

[hisway]

Double posted, sorry

[Persecuted]

The same things happen in Baptist and non-denominational churches (healings, speaking in tongues, delivery from bondage) and some of them are trinitarian...

[(Omega)]

With that being said, how can God bear witness twice?
If the Father (God) and the Son (that same God) bears witness?

Then who was the second witness, being as though there is only one God who beared witness? Unless the Son is not the same God, then only God beared witness, meaning one witness.

The point is well made. Whether Oneness or trinity the concept is the same: One God bearing witness to Himself. I explained in my reply to Aineo above.

They both bear witness, both Testimony are true and both are the Same Testimony, (One Testimony) given by two witnesses!

John 12:49 - For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

You have made the same contradiction as Aineo which I pointed out and well proved above in my reply to him. You cannot have it both ways. This whole argument is moot.

What Contradiction?
If it is a Contradiction then Jesus is not Deity, and since Jesus is Deity and how I clearly proved that He is another witness, that makes Him both Deity and distinct, regardless it still makes Him God! You can play all the word games you want hisway, the fact is the Bible clearly teaches a Triune God.

What these two examples clearly show is that a manifestation of God is to be worshipped as if the very person of God is there. This is what a manifestation of the Lord God is: the very person of God Himself in reduced visible form. A manifestation of the Lord must be treated as a "person" but not a separate and distinct person. This goes back to the witness of two of Jesus as a man (God in manifested in visible form) bearing witness to the invisible Spirit form.

Reduced visible form
Invisible spirit form
It doesn't matter how many forms you have, it is still the same person making it ONE WITNESS, and ONE PERSON! not TWO WITNESSES!

HERESY:{hairesis}Choosing ones own opinion!

God Bless!

[Persecuted]

The problem/contradiction that you are not seeing is that

If Jesus is a diety and the Father is that same diety (God) the only God beared witness.

God is one witness and there would be no other but God. If you try to make it two witnesses it has to be two gods or else only God beared witness...

His Father (He whom spoke/birthed the Word) if I refer to Aineo's spirit. I can say his spirit and it does not make Aineo and his spirit two separate people...

[BradtheImpaler]

With that being said, how can God bear witness twice?
If the Father (God) and the Son (that same God) bears witness?

Then who was the second witness, being as though there is only one God who beared witness? Unless the Son is not the same God, then only God beared witness, meaning one witness.

Thank God there's a rational/sane person in these parts. This example of the "2 witnesses" absolutely proves that Jesus and the Father are not both God, OR, that they are not the SAME God.

(Good for us it's not the Middle Ages or we could be burned at the stake for displaying such good "demonic" common sense, eh?)

[Aineo]

For people who appeal to dictionaries to understand words how can two witnesses be one witness? And btw Brad, I notice you have once again refused to address Scripture and are still wrangling over words.

[BradtheImpaler]

For people who appeal to dictionaries to understand words how can two witnesses be one witness? And btw Brad, I notice you have once again refused to address Scripture and are still wrangling over words.

Folks, it just gets better and better doesn't it? Aineo has now negatively characterized me as -

"one of those people who appeal to dictionaries to understand words"

Perhaps Aineo believes that the proper function of a dictionary is a "door-stop" or something for the 2 year old to sit on at the dinner table? (God forbid it should be used for word definitions cause that would be "wrangling")

Now I can't answer your question about how 2 witnesses can be one because to do that you would have to understand what "metaphorically" means, and to do that, we'd have to shove the baby off the Webster's and use it for a word definition - and I guess that's not allowed?

[(Omega)]

The problem/contradiction that you are not seeing is that

If Jesus is a diety and the Father is that same diety (God) the only God beared witness.

God is one witness and there would be no other but God. If you try to make it two witnesses it has to be two gods or else only God beared witness...

His Father (He whom spoke/birthed the Word) if I refer to Aineo's spirit. I can say his spirit and it does not make Aineo and his spirit two separate people...

What you fail to see regardless of your theology is that Scriptures clearly demonstrate that Jesus is both Deity and Distinct from the Father, scriptures proves this. However your theology disproves that the Son IS the Father otherwise there would be only ONE WITNESS!

Your not going against my belief, your going against what Scriptures clearly teach, what the Scriptures clearly teach regarding a Triune God is not beyond logical reasoning. To say that it is, is to say that you understand the inifinite complexity and vastness of God. That in itself is illogical!

God Bless!

[Truth Seeker-Joshua]

Peace...

I posted the Apostle's Creed in my last post, and of coure hisway couldnt comment on it.

Hisway:

Why have I said trinitarians deny Jesus? First of all in the trinity Jesus is presented as a lesser God than the other two.

Again, read the apostle's creed, and try to come up with a logical answer please.

Now Hisway, if you make a logical explanation on this, you have INDEED proven yourself wrong. And I will be done with this thread, and any other Trinity thread your involved with.

Just to help you, I'll re-post it.

The Apostle's Creed
I believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the virgin mary,
suffered under pontius pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day He rose again from the dead.
He ascended into Heaven,
and sits at the right hand of
God the Father Almighty.
From thence He will come to
judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Christian chruch,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the Body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.


Notice the acknowledgement of the Trinty and Jesus Christ as Lord.

If you side step this one, and dont respond, or change the subject, your credibility regarding the debate of the Trinity is worthless.

I look forward to you reponse.

Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Isreal

[Aineo]

Perhaps since BradtheImpaler cannot address the real issue he plays the role of a 2 year-old and stands on dictionaries in lieu of God's truth. However, you have failed to prove your thesis via God's word.

Do you know what an Internet troll is? You fit the descriptions and we ban trolls. So unless you have something to share other than personal attacks aimed at those who have shown the inadequacy of your thesis I suggest you move on.

[Persecuted]

Can I ask you something...

When you don't know the meaning of a word, do you go to a dictionary?

Shouldn't a word be understood according to it's meaning?

If I say "magnanimous" and one does not know what it means, unless they look up the word, they mostlikely will take what is being said in error. But if they look up the word, they can understand what is being said. I hope you do not just give words meanings, but rather look them up as well if you don't know the exact meaning...

Just something to think about...

[Aineo]

Can I ask you something...

When you don't know the meaning of a word, do you go to a dictionary?

Shouldn't a word be understood according to it's meaning?

If I say "magnanimous" and one does not know what it means, unless they look up the word, they mostlikely will take what is being said in error. But if they look up the word, they can understand what is being said. I hope you do not just give words meanings, but rather look them up as well if you don't know the exact meaning...

Just something to think about...

If you don't know the meaning of obfuscate then the best thing to do is look it up but when you spend 350 posts debating the word "one" and refuse to address anything else then nothing gets accomplished, since the people who insist on defining just one word are doing nothing but obfuscating a discussion. Such people are not interesting in Biblical truth all they are out to do is argue or wrangle over words and that Persecuted in what Paul teaches against in 2 Timothy 2:14.

[Persecuted]

Friend...

This is not an insult and I hope that you don't take it as one...

But why do you say so many words, that have so little meaning?

That could have been simply stated by saying

If you don't understand a word, you should use a dictionary, but you should not constantly post things focused on the same word. That person should address other things as well...

The rest of that is full of hate friend. I can sense the spirit in your statements. Love, patience, and humility. Let love reign and don't let someone who disagrees with you be a burden that would cause you to leave their (love, patience, and humility) boundaries...

With Love,
The Persecuted...

[Aineo]

You brought looking up words in the dictionary. Now if all you are going to do is return to being a snipe then it is time you again left this board.

Before you take on the position of correcting others I suggest you take your own advise.

Now do you think you can address Scripture and cease trying to be the sargent at arms on these forums?

[hisway]

With that being said, how can God bear witness twice?
If the Father (God) and the Son (that same God) bears witness?

Then who was the second witness, being as though there is only one God who beared witness? Unless the Son is not the same God, then only God beared witness, meaning one witness.

Thank God there's a rational/sane person in these parts. This example of the "2 witnesses" absolutely proves that Jesus and the Father are not both God, OR, that they are not the SAME God.

The point that is missed is the fact that Jesus as a man had a dual nature as both God (deity) and man (humanity). As God manifest in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16) Jesus performed a dual role in His bodily form. As deity (Col 2:9) He revealed the person of the Father (Heb 1:3). As a man He took on the role as the sacrificial Lamb (John 1:21) and the last Adam (Rom 5:14; 1 Cor 15:45) to make the atonement to redeem mankind.

Some of the contention in this debate has been a play on the meaning of words. So I have quoted impartial definitions below of specific words (highlighted above in bold) to help clear up the misunderstanding:

manifest - V., 1. to make clear or evident; show plainly; reveal. 2. to prove; be evident.

manifestation - N., 3. a form in which a being manifests itself. 4. the material or bodily form of a spirit.

person - N., 4. personality; self; being.

personality - N., 2. the quality or fact of being a particular person; personal identity; individuality.

nature - N., 2. inborn character; innate disposition; inherent tendencies of a person. 5. any or all of the instincts, desires, appetites, drives, etc of a person.

To isolate a single passage of Scripture such as John 8:17,18 (the two witness testimony) and then extrapolate a doctrine from it while ignoring established precepts is not sound doctrine. Sound doctrine is built precept upon precept (Isa 28:9,10,13). The one precept we agree on is there is only ONE God. That precept alone excludes any notion of a trinity.

Precept No. 1: There is ONE God, a single Spirit Being.

Precept No. 2: The Deity of Jesus in the Role as Father:

"...God was manifest [made clear or evident; shown plainly; revealed; proved; evidenced] in the flesh..." (1 Tim 3:16)

Since the ONE God is a Spirit and a manifestation is a material or bodily form in which a spirit being reveals itself then the obvious meaning of 1 Tim 3:16 becomes clear: The ONE God took on the form of a man who is Jesus Christ. There is no other possibilty except that the ONE God was indeed Jesus as a Spirit revealed (manifested) as man. The invisible form of God made visible. Colossians 2:9 affirms this precept: "For in Him [Jesus Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." What God did Jesus reveal? The answer: "Who [Jesus as a man, Son] being the brightness of his [the Father's] glory, and the express image of his [the Father's] person [personality; self; being]..." (Heb 1:3). Therefore the person Jesus revealed was the Father, thus Jesus pre-existed as the Father since there was none other but the ONE God who pre-existed. Jesus said, "when you have seen Me you have seen the Father".


Precept No.3: The Humanity of Jesus in the Role as Son:

"...[Adam] who is the figure of him [Jesus Christ] that was to come". (Rom 5:14)

"The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Jesus Christ as Son] was made a quickening spirit" (1 Cor 15:45)

Jesus as God in the flesh was also fully man [Adam]. As God in human form He was God according to the divine nature [inborn character; innate disposition; inherent tendencies of the Father' person]. As a man He was fully human with a human body, mind (human will) and human soul. As a man He had all the desires, appetites and drives of a human person according to His human nature. His Divinity was inherited from the Spirit form of Himself (Father) and His humanity was inherited from Mary (a human woman). Thus, in the role of the Son, Jesus had a dual nature. As a man, He was fully limited as man. But since the Father indwelt the body as Spirit and the fact Jesus as man was literally conceived by the Spirit of God (Matt 1:18) that made Him unique. He could literally therefore claim to be the only begotten Son of God and at the same time claim to be of the human seed of David. As the Son as a man He was God (Father) revealed in reduced visible form while the Omnipresent Spirit remained Omnipresent as filling heaven at the same time indwelling a human body on earth. JESUS CLAIMED HIMSELF TO BE JUST THAT - on earth and in heaven at the same time: John 3:13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of Man which is in heaven."


Now getting to the issue of the two person witness. Jesus as as the Omnipresent Spirit God dwelling in heaven and indwelling the human body could testify as one witness. But since God in human form had the nature [inborn character; inherent tendencies of a person] as a man he could claim the second witness according to the human nature. The definition of nature as being the inborn character and inherent tendencies of a person qualifies the "person" requirement of the Jewish testimony law. Therefore, the invisible Spirit of God could bear witness with the visible human form of God and legally fulfill the testimony.

Brad, I get the sense that you're a reasonable man. If anyone on this forum thus far can understand this I would say it would be you. Carefully consider these things not like others who would dismiss them out of ego.

[hisway]

double post

[BradtheImpaler]

If you don't know the meaning of obfuscate then the best thing to do is look it up but when you spend 350 posts debating the word "one" and refuse to address anything else then nothing gets accomplished, since the people who insist on defining just one word are doing nothing but obfuscating a discussion. Such people are not interesting in Biblical truth all they are out to do is argue or wrangle over words and that Persecuted in what Paul teaches against in 2 Timothy 2:14.

The reason so many posts were spent "wrangling" over the word "one" was that Omega would not/could not admit that the one in "one God" is a "numerical one" - which means he doesn't really believe that there is one God in NUMBER (which, of course, would intend, to any thinking person, that there are 2 or more Gods) This is why I asked him repeatedly "how MANY Gods are there if God is mot one in number?" Which he refuses to answer.
Then he presents the "triangle analogy", with one triangle representing God, and asks me "How many triangles are there?" intending ONE, the NUMBER ONE, as the answer he was looking for. So he DOES believe there is only one God (number) or not?

This is one reason why I have refused to allow the discussion to be expanded - if you guys are so elusive over the most basic points.

[Aineo]

This is one reason why I have refused to allow the discussion to be expanded - if you guys are so elusive over the most basic points.

The reason you have not allowed this discussion to expand is that when you discuss concepts in lieu of wrangling over words you will find the truth of the Trinity in the NT and that seems to scare you so you continue to obfuscate the discussion by refusing to move on.

Now either address the specific questions you have been asked regarding Scripture or cease wasting server space.

[(Omega)]

If you don't know the meaning of obfuscate then the best thing to do is look it up but when you spend 350 posts debating the word "one" and refuse to address anything else then nothing gets accomplished, since the people who insist on defining just one word are doing nothing but obfuscating a discussion. Such people are not interesting in Biblical truth all they are out to do is argue or wrangle over words and that Persecuted in what Paul teaches against in 2 Timothy 2:14.

The reason so many posts were spent "wrangling" over the word "one" was that Omega would not/could not admit that the one in "one God" is a "numerical one" - which means he doesn't really believe that there is one God in NUMBER (which, of course, would intend, to any thinking person, that there are 2 or more Gods) This is why I asked him repeatedly "how MANY Gods are there if God is mot one in number?" Which he refuses to answer.
Then he presents the "triangle analogy", with one triangle representing God, and asks me "How many triangles are there?" intending ONE, the NUMBER ONE, as the answer he was looking for. So he DOES believe there is only one God (number) or not?

This is one reason why I have refused to allow the discussion to be expanded - if you guys are so elusive over the most basic points.

Enough of gibberish Brad, you know full well that you cannot refute Scriptural Truth, I challenge you to disprove what the Scriptures clearly state and stop avoiding it!

Deity of Christ and His distinction from the Father!
Deity:

John 8:58 - Jesus{Iesous}said{epo}unto them{autos},Verily{amen}, verily{amen}, I say{lego} unto you{humen}, Before{prin}Abraham{Abraam}was{ginomai}, I{ego}am{eimi}.

John 1:1 - In{en}the beginning{arche}was{en}the Word{logos}, and{kai}the Word{logos} was{en}with{pros}God{theos}, and{kai}the Word{logos}was{en}God{theos}.

Distinction:

John 6:38 - For{hoti}I came down{katabaino}from{ek}heaven{ouranos},not{ou}to{hina} do{poieo} mine own{emos}will{thelema},but{alla}the will{thelema}of him that sent{pempo}me{me}.

John 8:17 - {kai}It is{grapho also{de}written{grapho}in{en} your{humeteros}law{nomos}, that{hoti}the testimony{marturia}of two{duo}men{anthropos}is{esti}true{alethes}.

John 5:31 - If{ean}I{ego}bear witness{martureo}of{peri}myself{emautou}, my{mou}witness{marturia}is{esti}not{ou}true{alethes}.

John 17:24 - Father{pater}, I will{thelo}that{hina}they also{kakeinos},whom{hos}thou hast given{didomi}me{moi},be{o}with{meta}me{emou}where{hopou} I{ego}am{eimi};that{hina}they may behold{theoreo}my{emos}glory{doxa}, which{hos}thou hast given{didomi}me{moi}:for{hoti}thou lovedst{agapao}me{me}before{pro}the foundation{katabole}of the world{kosmos}.

ANSWER ME!

[Aineo]

Now Brad, unless and until you can or will respond to specific Scriptures and questions any future posts will be simply deleted.

Enough is enough.

[BradtheImpaler]

Post edited out as per warning.

[(Omega)]

You lose Brad, scriptures have refuted you. The Doctrine of the Trinity may be inscrutable but not INESCAPABLE!

[BradtheImpaler]

You lose Brad, scriptures have refuted you. The Doctrine of the Trinity may be inscrutable but not INESCAPABLE!

Agreed, the doctrine of the Trinity is NOT "inescapable". (another "blurb", I guess?)

How have the scriptures refuted me? I told you, for the purpose of this question, I'm not disagreeing with your" Jesus and the Father are distinct/both Jesus and the Father are deity" points. I'm asking you HOW this is different from polytheism, since a polytheistic scenario is that all the deity that exists is made up of DISTINCT PERSONS WHO ARE NOT ONE ANOTHER - i.e. - GODS (plural)

All you have to offer in response is that the Trinity is ONE GOD, not "many Gods" - but then you have also explained that the "one" in your concept of this "one God" IS NOT NUMERICAL, but means a "unity". Guess what? Polytheistics also do not believe there is only one God in NUMBER -

that's...WHY...it's...polytheism NOT monotheism.

Do you NOW understand?

[BradtheImpaler]

Post edited out as per warning.

I DID respond to the scriptures quoted. Please show how I didn't.

[(Omega)]

You lose Brad, scriptures have refuted you. The Doctrine of the Trinity may be inscrutable but not INESCAPABLE!

Agreed, the doctrine of the Trinity is NOT "inescapable". (another "blurb", I guess?)

How have the scriptures refuted me? I told you, for the purpose of this question, I'm not disagreeing with your" Jesus and the Father are distinct/both Jesus and the Father are deity" points. I'm asking you HOW this is different from polytheism, since a polytheistic scenario is that all the deity that exists is made up of DISTINCT PERSONS WHO ARE NOT ONE ANOTHER - i.e. - GODS (plural)

All you have to offer in response is that the Trinity is ONE GOD, not "many Gods" - but then you have also explained that the "one" in your concept of this "one God" IS NOT NUMERICAL, but means a "unity". Guess what? Polytheistics also do not believe there is only one God in NUMBER -

that's...WHY...it's...polytheism NOT monotheism.

Do you NOW understand?

If that is Polytheism then the Scriptures CLEARLY teach POLYTHEISM, however you won't take into consideration of three eternal beings uncreated, furthermore you reasoning and logic going against the Truth that teaches a Deity that is clearly manifested in three distinct persons is in itself illogical, why? because you have gone against the infinite mind of God and the complexity of His existence. I'd rather put my trust in what the Scriptures clearly teach than a finite man with a brain that has limited understanding.

cheerio!

[hisway]

Peace...

I posted the Apostle's Creed in my last post, and of coure hisway couldnt comment on it.

Hisway:

Why have I said trinitarians deny Jesus? First of all in the trinity Jesus is presented as a lesser God than the other two.

Again, read the apostle's creed, and try to come up with a logical answer please.

Now Hisway, if you make a logical explanation on this, you have INDEED proven yourself wrong. And I will be done with this thread, and any other Trinity thread your involved with.

Just to help you, I'll re-post it.

The Apostle's Creed
I believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the virgin mary,
suffered under pontius pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day He rose again from the dead.
He ascended into Heaven,
and sits at the right hand of
God the Father Almighty.
From thence He will come to
judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Christian chruch,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the Body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.


Notice the acknowledgement of the Trinty and Jesus Christ as Lord.

If you side step this one, and dont respond, or change the subject, your credibility regarding the debate of the Trinity is worthless.

I look forward to you reponse.

Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Isreal

I noticed firstly you posted an edited version of the Creed omitting the phrase, "the holy catholic Church" as it is in the Catholic version and substituted it for "the holy Christian church". Moreover, in the Old Roman Creed the phrase was "the Holy Church". The Catechism of the Council of Trent claimed the Apostolic origin ( by the inspired utterance of the original Apostles) of the existing Creed but over time the Creed had been modified several times which proves it was not "inspired" at all. The Old Roman Creed does not contain the clauses "Creator of heaven and earth", "descended into hell", "the communion of saints", "life everlasting", nor the words "conceived", "suffered", "died", and "Catholic". (Source: The Catholic Encyclopedia)

The point is the Creed you profess is a man-made confession fabricated by the Roman Catholic Church. And error is never more deceptive than when it is presented with a veneer of truth. The creed contains the trinity doctrine which is not an Apostolic doctrine. And yet it calls itself the "Apostles" Creed? Although it claims Jesus Christ as Lord that is an empty confession as the trinity in actuality degrades Jesus. In what way does the trinity degrade Jesus? The trinity claims Jesus was a co-eternal Son co-equal in attributes with the Father as a Spirit. But when the Son became a man He lost His attributes of being: 1. Omnipresent, 2. Omniscient and 3. Omnipotent. I fully explained the implications of the lost Divine attributes in the closed Trinity Debate thread, pages 10-13. The Creed professes one thing but means another thing. The Catholics confess the very same Creed so does that make the Catholic Church the true church? So to confess this Creed is to confess being a Catholic. What is the difference? The words say one thing but the hidden meaning is very different. To make confession of this Creed is to swear an oath of allegiance to the Catholic harlot whether you realize it or not.

You said if I do not respond then my credibility regarding the trinity debate is worthless. And if I do respond and make any argument than I have proven myself wrong. So what you're saying is if I do not respond other than by saying "Amen" to your Creed I am wrong and have no credibility. It is a no win situation unless I bow to your Creed, thus the Catholic Church. I bow only to Jesus Christ, sorry.

[Aineo]

hisway, you are so hung up on what you see as Catholicism's influence on reformed doctrines you can't see the forest for the trees.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell. [See Calvin]

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.


*The word "catholic" refers not to the Roman Catholic Church, but to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ.
http://www.reformed.org/documents/index ... creed.html

The word "catholic" is from the Greek "katholicos" and means "universal". The one true Church of Jesus Christ is the only holy "universal" Church so you objections to the Apostles Creed is founded in bigotry and prejudice not Biblical truth.

Now do you think you can addresse Scripture and not post rhetoric based on hate for a single institutional church?

[hisway]

hisway, you are so hung up on what you see as Catholicism's influence on reformed doctrines you can't see the forest for the trees.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell. [See Calvin]

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.


*The word "catholic" refers not to the Roman Catholic Church, but to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ.
http://www.reformed.org/documents/index ... creed.html

The word "catholic" is from the Greek "katholicos" and means "universal". The one true Church of Jesus Christ is the only holy "universal" Church so you objections to the Apostles Creed is founded in bigotry and prejudice not Biblical truth.

Now do you think you can addresse Scripture and not post rhetoric based on hate for a single institutional church?

It does not surprise me the daughter would rush to support her mother.

I am well aware the word "catholic" means "universal". The Creed is found in the Catholic Encyclopedia of the Roman Catholic Church. The Creed was fabricated by the Roman Catholic Church. It is part of Catholicism.

You say my objection to Papal Creeds is founded on hate and prejudice. Lets see who hates who. Foxe's Book of Martyrs clearly details the brutality with which organized Nicolaitane religion, in the form of the Roman Catholic Church, brutally murdered 68,000,000 believers of the True Church. Make no wonder, John, in the Book of Revelation said that "she" (the false Nicoliatane church) was "drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus" (Rev 17:6)

The same intellectual Roman Catholic theologians who invented the Papal Creeds were the same ones who made the Godhead an issue which eventually caused divisions within the Christian community. Finally, in 325 AD Emperor Constantine called for a meeting of all the Bishops of the "organized" church to settle the dispute. Hundreds of others attended this meeting to express their views. There were about 1500 delegates in all; and the laity outnumbered the bishops five to one in the delegation. But inspite of the large number of lay people present, opposing the idea of "three persons" in the Godhead, the Nicolaitanes' organized religion and Constantine's political plan out-maneuvered the True church. The vast majority of Roman Bishops came away from that council believing in three persons in the Godhead, thus believing in three Gods. But the True church, under the leadership of the Holy Spirit, maintained their Scriptural stand that God is ONE - not three; Because the Revelation through John by the Spirit to the churches was, "I am the Lord Jesus Christ, and I am ALL of it - the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty. There isn't any other God". And He [Jesus] put His seal on this Revelation. The organized church of Rome became so powerful that it began a campaign of persecution of the True Church, putting 68,000,000 of them to death. Now if you and others wish to cling to the harlot by confessing her Creed(s) and trinity is your choice. But the cry of the Lord remains: "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." (Rev 18:4)

[Aineo]

hisway, now that you have vented your dislike of the Catholic Church do you think you can address what Scripture and non-Catholic reformers have to say about the Trinity? What I find curious about your dislike of Catholicism is what you posted here:

This Scripture speaks nothing of the topic at hand. This simply shows the grace of God granting repentance. However, unless one actually "repents" that grace cannot be applied. So, I ask again is repentance a work for salvation? One cannot obtain the grace God offered here unless they repent. The grace is conditional upon doing the repenting, correct? If one never repents, then what? It is the same for water baptism. The grace of remission of sins is conditional upon getting water baptized. If water baptism is a work for salvation then repentance must also be a work for salvation. On the other hand, if repentance is a grace then water baptism must also be a grace. How is grace obtained? Through faith, correct? And faith without works is dead, correct? Therefore, repentance is work of faith the same as water baptism is a work of faith which in turn obtains the grace.
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/posting.p ... te&p=53143

If I did not know better I would think I was reading a post from a Catholic.

Omega and others have posted multiple Scriptures that show the Biblical truth of the Trinity and all you want to do is appeal to ancient history without one single post that refutes the Scriptural truth of the Trinity.

Oh, and BTW, have you read about the atrocities of some of the reformers perpetrated against people simply because they were Catholics? Calvin has some very bloody hands, so to appeal to what happened in the past in this discussion is nothing more than an attempt to misdirect the discussion.

[Truth Seeker-Joshua]

Peace..

Hisway:

I noticed firstly you posted an edited version of the Creed omitting the phrase

Yes, this is a Lutheran version

Although it claims Jesus Christ as Lord that is an empty confession as the trinity in actuality degrades Jesus. In what way does the trinity degrade Jesus? The trinity claims Jesus was a co-eternal Son co-equal in attributes with the Father as a Spirit. But when the Son became a man He lost His attributes of being:

I assume by this you didnt even bother reading the creed.
Notice the bolded phrase "our Lord"?

You nit-picked everything about the creed, except the question I was asking.
Thus, side-stepping it, and changing the subject.

Thus, weakening your credibility.

You said if I do not respond then my credibility regarding the trinity debate is worthless. And if I do respond and make any argument than I have proven myself wrong. So what you're saying is if I do not respond other than by saying "Amen" to your Creed I am wrong and have no credibility. It is a no win situation unless I bow to your Creed, thus the Catholic Church.

This statement just shows that you have trouble comprehending what you read.

I didnt ask you to bow to anything, did I?

I simply asked a question, which you avoided once again.

Here it is again:
How can I, a Trinitarian, confess the Apostle's Creed. While it acknowledges the Trinity and Jesus as our Lord?
(Remember, the term "our Lord" has never been changed or edited)
(Remember, you stated that Trinitarians deny Jesus as Lord)

Waiting for your answer.

Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Isreal

[BradtheImpaler]

If that is Polytheism then the Scriptures CLEARLY teach POLYTHEISM, however you won't take into consideration of three eternal beings uncreated, furthermore you reasoning and logic going against the Truth that teaches a Deity that is clearly manifested in three distinct persons is in itself illogical, why? because you have gone against the infinite mind of God and the complexity of His existence. I'd rather put my trust in what the Scriptures clearly teach than a finite man with a brain that has limited understanding.

So God is "3 eternal BEINGS?" You have now clearly demonstrated that YOUR UNDERSTANDING of the Godhead is polytheistic. Did you know that the accepted Trinitarian explanation is that God is NOT "3 beings" but one being/3 persons? I applaud your remark, however, as it it a more honest evaluation of what Trinitarianism actually indicates - 3 persons IS 3 beings, and 3 beings is 3 Gods.

I also understand why you cannot utter the final conclusion (3 beings are 3 Gods) as other Trinitarians would classify you as a Tritheist and you'd be "out of the club". However, the truth is, you are "out of the club" ALREADY, as you believe God is 3 beings. You are not the only Trinitarian I have heard make this gaff, and sometimes it slips by unnoticed, but in the evaluation of more experienced and scholarly Trinitarians, you will be seen as definately having crossed the line into Tritheism. If you don't believe me check it out. (How many references from Trinitarian sources would you like to hear that say that God is NOT 3 beings?)

I think we have come a long way in our discussion of the past couple weeks. Though you and Aineo have continually accused me of "wasting space" here, we have made 2 MONUMENTAL discoveries, namely that NEITHER you nor Aineo are truly Trinitarians. That you classify yourselves as such only goes to show that you do not even understand the doctrine you so vehemently defend.

Oh - the IRONY!!

[hisway]

hisway, now that you have vented your dislike of the Catholic Church do you think you can address what Scripture and non-Catholic reformers have to say about the Trinity? What I find curious about your dislike of Catholicism is what you posted here:

This Scripture speaks nothing of the topic at hand. This simply shows the grace of God granting repentance. However, unless one actually "repents" that grace cannot be applied. So, I ask again is repentance a work for salvation? One cannot obtain the grace God offered here unless they repent. The grace is conditional upon doing the repenting, correct? If one never repents, then what? It is the same for water baptism. The grace of remission of sins is conditional upon getting water baptized. If water baptism is a work for salvation then repentance must also be a work for salvation. On the other hand, if repentance is a grace then water baptism must also be a grace. How is grace obtained? Through faith, correct? And faith without works is dead, correct? Therefore, repentance is work of faith the same as water baptism is a work of faith which in turn obtains the grace.
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/posting.p ... te&p=53143

If I did not know better I would think I was reading a post from a Catholic.

The point of me drawing from church history is to show how Prostestant Christianity is still held in bondage by the Roman Catholic Church it claims to have separated from. The early Church (pre-Roman Catholic) was made up of independent assemblies which collectively made up the Body of Christ. I have shown in my various posts that history has proven the pre-Roman Catholic Church were Oneness ("Modalism: Heresy Or Catholic Persecution Of Truth") and they baptized in the name of Jesus ("Few Were Saved By Water", "Critical Identity of Baptism"). As a Oneness Apostolic the "Oneness" and "Baptism in Jesus' name" are vital doctrines of my faith. These doctrines are not new doctrines but the original Apostles' Doctrine as recorded in Holy Scripture that were practiced by the early Believers. The early Church became a "valley of dry bones" much like Israel as a nation. As Israel went away into captivity so did the early Church go through the dark ages. As Israel has been restored as a nation so also the True Church has been restored. What brought on the down fall of Israel was disobedience and what brought on the down fall of the Church was heresy. Without the evidence of history my claims would be mere here say despite all the Scriptural debate about doctrine.

And please don't get me wrong here - the only thing I hate is heresy and falsehood not people. The damage that has been done was wrought by a few who crept into the Church ( 2 Peter 2:1) which gained control over the many (laity). And it is still going on today as I write this post. The Roman Catholic Church of today boasts about billion souls it holds captive not to mention the millions of Prostestants that remain tied to it by the trinity. Religious bondage is what the Nicolaitane deeds and doctrine is all about. Islam is another example of Nicolaitane style control - another billion or so souls held captive.

Your comment about my post you quoted above shows you did not read or ponder about what I said in that post. It also shows your hypocrisy for you have critized me of prejudice against Catholics earlier in this thread and then you make that comment, "I would think I was reading a post from a Catholic".

Omega and others have posted multiple Scriptures that show the Biblical truth of the Trinity and all you want to do is appeal to ancient history without one single post that refutes the Scriptural truth of the Trinity.

Please, Aineo. I have quoted and expounded on Scripture after Scripture throughout all my posts. See the closed Trinity Debate thread, pages 10-13 for example.

Oh, and BTW, have you read about the atrocities of some of the reformers perpetrated against people simply because they were Catholics? Calvin has some very bloody hands, so to appeal to what happened in the past in this discussion is nothing more than an attempt to misdirect the discussion.

I do not condone the actions of Calvin or anyone else. But it would appear the daughter has inhereted some of the ways of her mother in this case.

The issue of the trinity I raised in this thread is that it is a Roman Catholic Doctrine carried forward into Protestantism. History has proven it. Scripture has proven it to be false doctrine - a riddle of contradictions. History has also not forgotten the sins of Catholicism and neither has God, "For her sins have reached unto the heavens, and God hath remembered her iniquities." (Rev 18:5) And unless the tie of the trinity is broken those tied by it will be partakers of her sins and will receive of her plagues. (Rev 18:4)

[hisway]

I think we have come a long way in our discussion of the past couple weeks. Though you and Aineo have continually accused me of "wasting space" here, we have made 2 MONUMENTAL discoveries, namely that NEITHER you nor Aineo are truly Trinitarians. That you classify yourselves as such only goes to show that you do not even understand the doctrine you so vehemently defend.

Oh - the IRONY!! :D

I applaud your true observation.

I came to the same conclusion myself some time back and posted it as so. I wonder how seriously they will take their beloved "two witness" testimony now that the witness of you and me has exposed their total lack of understanding of their "precious" trinity.

[hisway]

Peace..

Here it is again:
How can I, a Trinitarian, confess the Apostle's Creed. While it acknowledges the Trinity and Jesus as our Lord?
(Remember, the term "our Lord" has never been changed or edited)
(Remember, you stated that Trinitarians deny Jesus as Lord)

Waiting for your answer.

Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Isreal

The same way those in Matthew 7:21-23 acknowledged the Lord:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven...

Simply making a confession of Jesus is Lord and not walking in Truth is not going to be a ticket into heaven. Christians are called to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. Not heresy and no Spirit (Catholicism), not partial Truth with heresy and no Spirit (mainstream denominational Christianity), not partial Truth with heresy and Spirit (trinity Pentecostals and Charismatics), but full Truth and Spirit. If this does not answer your question then I do not know what will.

[Aineo]

Actually what we have discovered is non-Trinitarians are nothing more than spin-doctors who avoid discussing an issue by the use of ad hominems.

hisway, all you have done is attack Catholicism and all Christians who disagree with your limited understanding of Biblical truth. You say Protestants are the daughters of Catholicism while what you posted on another thread is Catholicism dressed up with tongues. If anyone on this thread has been influenced by Catholicism’s heretical teachings it is you, not those who can base what they believe on a full understanding of Biblical revelation.

All you and Brad have proved is since you cannot disprove the Trinity Biblically you only resort is to bring in extra-Biblical rhetoric to obfuscate what the Bible teaches.

[Truth Seeker-Joshua]

Peace all..

Hisway:
If this does not answer your question then I do not know what will.

Thankyou for the reply..
But again..you somewhat side-stepped the question.

I think your lacking the aspect of simplicity

Simply making a confession of Jesus is Lord and not walking in Truth is not going to be a ticket into heaven.

As I said before, how do you know whats in my heart?
Who are you to deny me a path into Heaven?

The simplicity your lacking is, just how simple it is for me and what is in my heart.

I believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. And Jesus is in my heart, and He is my Savior and Lord. I love Jesus, and he has paved my road to Heaven for me.

But rather than believing that someone could be so simple in their beliefs, you condemn my beliefs and tell me I'm not walking in truth and therefore wont receive a "ticket" to Heaven.

Who the hell do you think you are?

You talk to me about walking in truth with Jesus. But yet, I have quoted several times what Jesus spoke about judging people, for you not know what lay in their hearts.

And here you are judging me?
Hypocrite

Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Isreal

[(Omega)]

If that is Polytheism then the Scriptures CLEARLY teach POLYTHEISM, however you won't take into consideration of three eternal beings uncreated, furthermore you reasoning and logic going against the Truth that teaches a Deity that is clearly manifested in three distinct persons is in itself illogical, why? because you have gone against the infinite mind of God and the complexity of His existence. I'd rather put my trust in what the Scriptures clearly teach than a finite man with a brain that has limited understanding.

So God is "3 eternal BEINGS?" You have now clearly demonstrated that YOUR UNDERSTANDING of the Godhead is polytheistic. Did you know that the accepted Trinitarian explanation is that God is NOT "3 beings" but one being/3 persons? I applaud your remark, however, as it it a more honest evaluation of what Trinitarianism actually indicates - 3 persons IS 3 beings, and 3 beings is 3 Gods.

I also understand why you cannot utter the final conclusion (3 beings are 3 Gods) as other Trinitarians would classify you as a Tritheist and you'd be "out of the club". However, the truth is, you are "out of the club" ALREADY, as you believe God is 3 beings. You are not the only Trinitarian I have heard make this gaff, and sometimes it slips by unnoticed, but in the evaluation of more experienced and scholarly Trinitarians, you will be seen as definately having crossed the line into Tritheism. If you don't believe me check it out. (How many references from Trinitarian sources would you like to hear that say that God is NOT 3 beings?)

I think we have come a long way in our discussion of the past couple weeks. Though you and Aineo have continually accused me of "wasting space" here, we have made 2 MONUMENTAL discoveries, namely that NEITHER you nor Aineo are truly Trinitarians. That you classify yourselves as such only goes to show that you do not even understand the doctrine you so vehemently defend.

Oh - the IRONY!!

That was a slip up, I do make mistakes and am not perfect in thought and mind but am humble enough to admit it . You are correct three persons in one being. Three Eternal Persons uncreated. Nevertheless you haven't declared whether you agree to the Deity and Distinction of Christ from the Father nor have you disagreed. You merely stated that you never said that you disagreed. An indefinite answer tells me that there is confusion on your part as to where your belief stands in the theology of God. If you agree that Christ is God, then you have proven one of my points, and if you agree that He is distinct from the Father than you have also proven my point!. And if you agree that He is both Deity and Distinct then either you have a trinitarian viewpoint or you have another kind! If you don't believe He is Deity, it can be proven, If you believe that He is Deity and done believe that He is distinct from the Father then I will prove you wrong. You have as of yet not gave a definite answer. Whatever your stand is, I have already proven by scriptures that He is both Deity and distinct from the Father, and if you agree then you have proven my point, and if not then I will refute you with scriptures, NOT ME!

Care to explain where you stand in regards to the God of the Bible?
IF you agree that Christ is Deity and Distinct than you have proven my point, unless you somewhat have another unknown view of God, and if not then you lose, because I have already demonstrated both the distinction and Deity of Christ. So what will it be?

[BradtheImpaler]

That was a slip up, I do make mistakes and am not perfect in thought and mind but am humble enough to admit it

I humbly retract my claim that you are a non-Trinitarian if you say your remark was a slip. However, the nature of this "slip" reveals the arbitrary and subjective manner in which Trinitarians use terminology such as persons/beings/etc. For instance, I also make slips of the tongue, but this is one I would NEVER make, because I don't believe God is 3 "anythings" in the first place. I have conversed with quite a few Trinitarians who said what you did, and they later said they, too, merely made a slip, however, I really think they DO believe that God is 3 beings but realized that they were "technically" in error because that's not in the accepted (i.e. - "official") definition of the doctrine. (I don't know if this is the case with you, but I'm just making a point using OTHERS as an example) The heart of my original post has to do with this - it means NOTHING how emphatically the Trinitarian may insist that there is only one God - if their "one God" is distinct persons, because a GROUP of individual gods would also be distinct persons - or that God is not "3 beings" - when at the same time, they claim that God is 3 persons, but a person IS a being.

You are correct three persons in one being. Three Eternal Persons uncreated.

Again, the "uncreated" aspect has nothing to do with whether God is one or more than one. We could certainly imagine 3 eternal Gods as easily as one, couldn't we? The real problem, as I just mentioned, is that a person is a being. If you qualify as a distinct person, you qualify as a distinct BEING. Therefore, God is either 3 distinct beings, and we have polytheism, or he's not 3 distinct persons.

Nevertheless you haven't declared whether you agree to the Deity and Distinction of Christ from the Father nor have you disagreed. You merely stated that you never said that you disagreed. An indefinite answer tells me that there is confusion on your part as to where your belief stands in the theology of God

No, I am not confused about what I believe the bible presents on this issue, I didn't answer your question because it doesn't address my original question. My original point is IF the characteristics of the Trinity ARE true (scripturally) then God is only "one" as in one GROUP. You are trying to force me into a Trinitarian conclusion by accepting -

a) Christ is God
b) Christ is not the Father
c) There is only one God

therefore...

- the Trinity. This is actually how the doctrine developed. They had 3 points which they accepted as true, but they didn't fit together. (if a + b are true, then c cannot be, and so on...) So they "threw a blanket" over the whole problem and "waved a magic wand" over it all and said -

"Voila! The Trinity!"

But you see - IF DOESN'T REALLY FIT. 3 persons cannot be the SAME God, unless your concept of (one) God is no different from MORE than one God. The developers of the Trinity would not entertain the possibility that one of their premises (a/b/c) may have been incorrect.

If you agree that Christ is God, then you have proven one of my points, and if you agree that He is distinct from the Father than you have also proven my point!. And if you agree that He is both Deity and Distinct then either you have a trinitarian viewpoint or you have another kind! If you don't believe He is Deity, it can be proven, If you believe that He is Deity and done believe that He is distinct from the Father then I will prove you wrong. You have as of yet not gave a definite answer. Whatever your stand is, I have already proven by scriptures that He is both Deity and distinct from the Father, and if you agree then you have proven my point, and if not then I will refute you with scriptures, NOT ME!

Care to explain where you stand in regards to the God of the Bible?
IF you agree that Christ is Deity and Distinct than you have proven my point, unless you somewhat have another unknown view of God, and if not then you lose, because I have already demonstrated both the distinction and Deity of Christ. So what will it be?

Even if I agreed with you that your 2 points are scriptural, I could not become a Trinitarian. If I believe that the Father and Jesus are distinct, and that Jesus is God (as in "the one absolute deity") then I could not believe that the FATHER is God, (because there's only one God) which, of course, is ridiculous since the scriptures plainly teach in many passges that the Father is God and the ONLY God.

If the scriptures DO teach all 3 points (a/b/c/) then the scriptures contradict one another. The only thing you could ever persuade me of would be this.

[(Omega)]

Oops, I made a mistake, I could care less if you retract my claim MR.PERFECT! does this diprove what the Scriptures say?
This is the THIRD TIME you cunningly avoided whether you agree that Jesus is Deity or not, according to my understanding you agree that the Father alone posseses Deity and if that is the case than you still are refuted, take a look. I challenge you to dismiss these Scriptures that point to the Deity of Christ.
Deity:

John 8:58 - Jesus{Iesous}said{epo}unto them{autos},Verily{amen}, verily{amen}, I say{lego} unto you{humen}, Before{prin}Abraham{Abraam}was{ginomai}, I{ego}am{eimi}.

John 1:1 - In{en}the beginning{arche}was{en}the Word{logos}, and{kai}the Word{logos} was{en}with{pros}God{theos}, and{kai}the Word{logos}was{en}God{theos}.

And please don't circle around these scriptural refutations as usual. I challenge you to refute the Deity of Christ. Since obviously you never lose debates, you will lose this one in the presence of the entire Jesus Christ forum members.

[(Omega)]

Since you believe that the Trinity theology Contradicts the Scriptures, then I will take it one step at a time. Lets begin shall we.

a) Christ is God
b) Christ is not the Father
c) There is only one God

[BradtheImpaler]

Oops, I made a mistake, I could care less if you retract my claim MR.PERFECT!

I said I retract MY claim (if you say you just slipped) not that I retract your claim. I'm beginning to think you are seriously reading impaired.

does this diprove what the Scriptures say?
This is the THIRD TIME you cunningly avoided whether you agree that Jesus is Deity or not, according to my understanding you agree that the Father alone posseses Deity and if that is the case than you still are refuted, take a look. I challenge you to dismiss these Scriptures that point to the Deity of Christ.

I have lost COUNT of how many times you have attempted to change the immediate subject - here you're doing it again.

Deity:

John 8:58 - Jesus{Iesous}said{epo}unto them{autos},Verily{amen}, verily{amen}, I say{lego} unto you{humen}, Before{prin}Abraham{Abraam}was{ginomai}, I{ego}am{eimi}.

John 1:1 - In{en}the beginning{arche}was{en}the Word{logos}, and{kai}the Word{logos} was{en}with{pros}God{theos}, and{kai}the Word{logos}was{en}God{theos}.

And please don't circle around these scriptural refutations as usual. I challenge you to refute the Deity of Christ. Since obviously you never lose debates, you will lose this one in the presence of the entire Jesus Christ forum members.[/quote]

This sounds like a shrouded admission of defeat? (You're starting another debate and I'm going to lose THIS one?) I'll restate the case for the the benefit of your lack of reading comprehension -

All I'm saying is that IF Jesus is God and the Father is God, and they are not one another, there CANNOT only be ONE God - and your rebuttal is to try to prove to me that Jesus is God I don't think you have ever even understood my point in the first place.

Now I will show how you have skewered yourself once again -

You formerly said that "one" as in there is only "one God", meant "unity", not a "number". Now you have corrected yourself concerning "beings", saying that God is NOT "3 beings but one". When you say God is "one being", do you mean "one" as a NUMBER? Yes, I'm sure you DO, because your admission was that He is one in DISTINCTION to "3". i.e. - He is not "3"(numerically) he is "one" (numerically)

So how do you believe God is one (numerical) being, but not one (numerical) God?

(Wake me up when you're ready to make sense)

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[hisway]

Who are you to deny me a path into Heaven?

You completely misunderstand me. I do not deny you or anyone else a path to heaven. Nor do I question your sincerity and love for the Lord. But Jesus Himself as well as the Apostles gave clear warnings how heresy can bring damnation (2 Peter 2:1; Rev 2:5,16,22,23; 3:3,15) ). I did not write the Bible and say those things. Jesus said, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten..." (Rev 3:19). The warnings given by Jesus are not to unbelievers but to the Church - the Church He loves and I love. I love the Body of Christ too much to sit by idly while the chips fall were they may without at least making a protest. My heart is broken from watching the things that are going on in the modern Church.

The simplicity your lacking is, just how simple it is for me and what is in my heart.

I believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. And Jesus is in my heart, and He is my Savior and Lord. I love Jesus, and he has paved my road to Heaven for me.

But rather than believing that someone could be so simple in their beliefs, you condemn my beliefs and tell me I'm not walking in truth and therefore wont receive a "ticket" to Heaven.

Who the hell do you think you are?

I am a simple lay person who carries a heavy burden for the Church to speak out against heresy. Notice the parable of the ten virgins Matthew 25:1-12:

"Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not."

their lamps... - lamps produce light and light typifies Truth. The Bible is our lamp and from the Bible comes the light of Truth.

oil in their vessels - oil typifies the Holy Ghost and the vessels typifies the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. The body is a temple or a vessel of the Holy Ghost. It is the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, that guides into all Truth (John 16:13). Without the oil (Spirit) fueling the lamp ( the Word), the light (Truth of doctrine) is not going to be produced. Heresy is the opposite of Truth. Heresy comes from man-made doctrines not from the Spirit. As heresy crept into the Church the Spirit left. Notice what Jesus said to the Laodiceans Rev 3:20, "Behold I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him.." Jesus is standing outside many churches today waiting to be invited in. He is also standing outside the hearts of those who have not received the baptism of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:4) waiting to be invited in.

virgins... - the virgins identifies as believers, as Christians.

at midnight... a time of darkness which in this case typifies spiritual darkness and deception. The deception of heresy and false doctrine within the Church. The trinity is only one heresy. The issue of baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of sins is another, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost evidenced with speaking in tongues is another. The heresies that were brought into the early Church were by intellectual theologians who were not Holy Ghost filled, thus not guided by the Holy Ghost.

they that were ready... - It is evident from this parable not all those who profess Jesus Christ are going to be ready to meet Him when He comes. All the virgins (believers) knew Jesus was about to return but only the ones who walked in Spirit and in Truth made it. The believers who were shut out had no oil (Holy Ghost according to Acts 2:4). Thus they did not have the Spiritual guidance to discern the deception and were shut out as a result.

Jesus spoke this parable. If you are offended by it then that is an issue between you and the Lord. I did not write this parable. These are not my words. This parable along with all the warnings apply to me as much as they apply to you and all other believers. Paul said to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. I must not allow myself to become like one of those foolish virgins and neither should you. According to this parable one out of every two professing Christians are going to be shut out. That is a horrifying statistic.

You talk to me about walking in truth with Jesus. But yet, I have quoted several times what Jesus spoke about judging people, for you not know what lay in their hearts.

And here you are judging me?
Hypocrite

I have not judged you. I have exposed heresy and the consequences of it. You have reacted because you have been pricked in the heart. You have judged yourself. You have plainly stated that a heresy can be justifed by simply making a verbal confession that Jesus Christ is Lord and I have shown the Bible says otherwise. Why am I a hypocrite for that? I am bound by the same precepts of the Word Of God as much as you or anyone else. I judge myself according to the precepts of God's Word. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. A little heresy or a little sin, the principle is the same. Beware of the leaven of the Pharicees - beware of the leaven of the intellectual theologians, the Nicolaitanes. That is all I am saying. Judgement begins at the house of God. The time is coming when the Lord is going to say to the Church, "thou art weighed in the balances and art found wanting" (Dan 5:27). Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling as do I. That is all.

[(Omega)]

Oops, I made a mistake, I could care less if you retract my claim MR.PERFECT!

I said I retract MY claim (if you say you just slipped) not that I retract your claim. I'm beginning to think you are seriously reading impaired.

does this diprove what the Scriptures say?
This is the THIRD TIME you cunningly avoided whether you agree that Jesus is Deity or not, according to my understanding you agree that the Father alone posseses Deity and if that is the case than you still are refuted, take a look. I challenge you to dismiss these Scriptures that point to the Deity of Christ.

I have lost COUNT of how many times you have attempted to change the immediate subject - here you're doing it again.

Deity:

John 8:58 - Jesus{Iesous}said{epo}unto them{autos},Verily{amen}, verily{amen}, I say{lego} unto you{humen}, Before{prin}Abraham{Abraam}was{ginomai}, I{ego}am{eimi}.

John 1:1 - In{en}the beginning{arche}was{en}the Word{logos}, and{kai}the Word{logos} was{en}with{pros}God{theos}, and{kai}the Word{logos}was{en}God{theos}.

And please don't circle around these scriptural refutations as usual. I challenge you to refute the Deity of Christ. Since obviously you never lose debates, you will lose this one in the presence of the entire Jesus Christ forum members.

This sounds like a shrouded admission of defeat? (You're starting another debate and I'm going to lose THIS one?) I'll restate the case for the the benefit of your lack of reading comprehension -

All I'm saying is that IF Jesus is God and the Father is God, and they are not one another, there CANNOT only be ONE God - and your rebuttal is to try to prove to me that Jesus is God I don't think you have ever even understood my point in the first place.

Now I will show how you have skewered yourself once again -

You formerly said that "one" as in there is only "one God", meant "unity", not a "number". Now you have corrected yourself concerning "beings", saying that God is NOT "3 beings but one". When you say God is "one being", do you mean "one" as a NUMBER? Yes, I'm sure you DO, because your admission was that He is one in DISTINCTION to "3". i.e. - He is not "3"(numerically) he is "one" (numerically)

So how do you believe God is one (numerical) being, but not one (numerical) God?

(Wake me up when you're ready to make sense)

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Admission of Defeat?
You lost, unless you can prove that Jesus is not Deity then you have clearly lost, ask anyone on this forum. You clearly stated that the FATHER ALONE posseses Deity, and I have proved you WRONG, your obviously taking your DEFEAT and displacing it upon me.
Wake me up when you are ready to disprove me! You have been circling around my Scriptural refutation from the get go, anyone can see this.

You states that the FATHER ONLY posseses Deity, I posted a IRREFUTABLE argument that proves that the SON ALSO posseses Deity. If you cannot prove within the verse I posted that Jesus is NOT DEITY, then you are INCORRECT in stating that the FATHER ALONE, Posseses Deity.

Admit it, your wrong. I may make mistakes in my commentaries, however I DO NOT make mistakes when the SCRIPTURES ITSELF proves me correct. Be man enough and admit that the Scriptures I posted IRREFUTABLY proves the DEITY OF CHRIST!

YOU LOSE!

[hisway]

No, I am not confused about what I believe the bible presents on this issue, I didn't answer your question because it doesn't address my original question. My original point is IF the characteristics of the Trinity ARE true (scripturally) then God is only "one" as in one GROUP. You are trying to force me into a Trinitarian conclusion by accepting -

a) Christ is God
b) Christ is not the Father
c) There is only one God

therefore...

- the Trinity. This is actually how the doctrine developed. They had 3 points which they accepted as true, but they didn't fit together. (if a + b are true, then c cannot be, and so on...) So they "threw a blanket" over the whole problem and "waved a magic wand" over it all and said -

"Voila! The Trinity!"

The revelation of who God is comes by Spiritual revelation. A bunch of intellectual theologians having not the Spirit (Jude 17-19) fabricated the trinity. Only a carnal mind could come up with such a ridiculous riddle.

If Christ is God then He must be the Father for there is no other God but the Father. Christ is the Father manifest in the flesh in the role as Son. This is the only possibilty that fits Scripture without contradictions.

The three points of the trinity makes no sense:

1. Christ is God
2. Christ is not the Father
3. There is only one God

If the Father is God and Christ is God but not the Father that would = two Gods not one. Something in this equation must change in order to make a true statement.

1. Christ is God mainfest as a man
2. Christ is the Father as Omnipresent Spirit
3. There is only one God.

There is simply no other way to make the three points fit without denying Christ's Deity. To deny Christ's Deity in these three points would make one a Yahwist of the Nation of Yahweh cult or a Jehovah's Witness.

Even if I agreed with you that your 2 points are scriptural, I could not become a Trinitarian. If I believe that the Father and Jesus are distinct, and that Jesus is God (as in "the one absolute deity") then I could not believe that the FATHER is God, (because there's only one God) which, of course, is ridiculous since the scriptures plainly teach in many passges that the Father is God and the ONLY God.

The Scriptures do plainly teach that the Father is God and the only God. As the only God, He is an Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient invisible Spirit who can only been seen in creation in a reduced visible manifested form of Himself. Throughout the O.T. God manifested Himself in reduced visible form on several occassions. In the N.T. God manifested Himself in the role of Son in the flesh. God is an unlimited God. He is a BIG God filling the heavens and the heavens of heavens. In eternity past He was God alone existing in indescribable power and glory. He can only be seen in reduced visible form of Himself there is no other way.

You may call it Modalism but take into consideration that label was coined by the same Roman Catholic intellectual theologians who fabricated the trinity. (see the thread: "Modalism: Heresy or Catholic Persecution of Truth?" )

[(Omega)]

With that being said, how can God bear witness twice?
If the Father (God) and the Son (that same God) bears witness?

Then who was the second witness, being as though there is only one God who beared witness? Unless the Son is not the same God, then only God beared witness, meaning one witness.

The point is well made. Whether Oneness or trinity the concept is the same: One God bearing witness to Himself. I explained in my reply to Aineo above.

They both bear witness, both Testimony are true and both are the Same Testimony, (One Testimony) given by two witnesses!

John 12:49 - For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

You have made the same contradiction as Aineo which I pointed out and well proved above in my reply to him. You cannot have it both ways. This whole argument is moot.

What Contradiction?
If it is a Contradiction then Jesus is not Deity, and since Jesus is Deity and how I clearly proved that He is another witness, that makes Him both Deity and distinct, regardless it still makes Him God! You can play all the word games you want hisway, the fact is the Bible clearly teaches a Triune God.

What these two examples clearly show is that a manifestation of God is to be worshipped as if the very person of God is there. This is what a manifestation of the Lord God is: the very person of God Himself in reduced visible form. A manifestation of the Lord must be treated as a "person" but not a separate and distinct person. This goes back to the witness of two of Jesus as a man (God in manifested in visible form) bearing witness to the invisible Spirit form.

Reduced visible form
Invisible spirit form
It doesn't matter how many forms you have, it is still the same person making it ONE WITNESS, and ONE PERSON! not TWO WITNESSES!

HERESY:{hairesis}Choosing ones own opinion!

God Bless!

Answer my question hisway, you clearly have two witnesses and all you have done is sidestepped my refutation with unbiblical gnostic interpretations. Scriptures have proven your theology a sham. Enough of the games hisway and answer my questions!

God Bless!

[hisway]

Hello Omega:

With that being said, how can God bear witness twice?
If the Father (God) and the Son (that same God) bears witness?

Then who was the second witness, being as though there is only one God who beared witness? Unless the Son is not the same God, then only God beared witness, meaning one witness.

Thank God there's a rational/sane person in these parts. This example of the "2 witnesses" absolutely proves that Jesus and the Father are not both God, OR, that they are not the SAME God.

The point that is missed is the fact that Jesus as a man had a dual nature as both God (deity) and man (humanity). As God manifest in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16) Jesus performed a dual role in His bodily form. As deity (Col 2:9) He revealed the person of the Father (Heb 1:3). As a man He took on the role as the sacrificial Lamb (John 1:21) and the last Adam (Rom 5:14; 1 Cor 15:45) to make the atonement to redeem mankind.

Some of the contention in this debate has been a play on the meaning of words. So I have quoted impartial definitions below of specific words (highlighted above in bold) to help clear up the misunderstanding:

manifest - V., 1. to make clear or evident; show plainly; reveal. 2. to prove; be evident.

manifestation - N., 3. a form in which a being manifests itself. 4. the material or bodily form of a spirit.

person - N., 4. personality; self; being.

personality - N., 2. the quality or fact of being a particular person; personal identity; individuality.

nature - N., 2. inborn character; innate disposition; inherent tendencies of a person. 5. any or all of the instincts, desires, appetites, drives, etc of a person.

To isolate a single passage of Scripture such as John 8:17,18 (the two witness testimony) and then extrapolate a doctrine from it while ignoring established precepts is not sound doctrine. Sound doctrine is built precept upon precept (Isa 28:9,10,13). The one precept we agree on is there is only ONE God. That precept alone excludes any notion of a trinity.

Precept No. 1: There is ONE God, a single Spirit Being.

Precept No. 2: The Deity of Jesus in the Role as Father:

"...God was manifest [made clear or evident; shown plainly; revealed; proved; evidenced] in the flesh..." (1 Tim 3:16)

Since the ONE God is a Spirit and a manifestation is a material or bodily form in which a spirit being reveals itself then the obvious meaning of 1 Tim 3:16 becomes clear: The ONE God took on the form of a man who is Jesus Christ. There is no other possibilty except that the ONE God was indeed Jesus as a Spirit revealed (manifested) as man. The invisible form of God made visible. Colossians 2:9 affirms this precept: "For in Him [Jesus Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." What God did Jesus reveal? The answer: "Who [Jesus as a man, Son] being the brightness of his [the Father's] glory, and the express image of his [the Father's] person [personality; self; being]..." (Heb 1:3). Therefore the person Jesus revealed was the Father, thus Jesus pre-existed as the Father since there was none other but the ONE God who pre-existed. Jesus said, "when you have seen Me you have seen the Father".


Precept No.3: The Humanity of Jesus in the Role as Son:

"...[Adam] who is the figure of him [Jesus Christ] that was to come". (Rom 5:14)

"The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Jesus Christ as Son] was made a quickening spirit" (1 Cor 15:45)

Jesus as God in the flesh was also fully man [Adam]. As God in human form He was God according to the divine nature [inborn character; innate disposition; inherent tendencies of the Father's person]. As a man He was fully human with a human body, mind (human will) and human soul. As a man He had all the desires, appetites and drives of a human person according to His human nature. His Divinity was inherited from the Spirit form of Himself (Father) and His humanity was inherited from Mary (a human woman). Thus, in the role of the Son, Jesus had a dual nature. As a man, He was fully limited as man. But since the Father indwelt the body as Spirit and the fact Jesus as man was literally conceived by the Spirit of God (Matt 1:18) that made Him unique. He could literally therefore claim to be the only begotten Son of God and at the same time claim to be of the human seed of David. As the Son as a man He was God (Father) revealed in reduced visible form while the Omnipresent Spirit remained Omnipresent as filling heaven at the same time indwelling a human body on earth. JESUS CLAIMED HIMSELF TO BE JUST THAT - on earth and in heaven at the same time: John 3:13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of Man which is in heaven."


Now getting to the issue of the two person witness. Jesus as as the Omnipresent Spirit God dwelling in heaven and indwelling the human body could testify as one witness. But since God in human form had the nature [inborn character; inherent tendencies of a person] as a man he could claim the second witness according to the human nature. The definition of nature as being the inborn character and inherent tendencies of a person qualifies the "person" requirement of the Jewish testimony law. Therefore, the invisible Spirit of God could bear witness with the visible human form of God and legally fulfill the testimony.

Omega, I have already answered and settled your two witness testimony question above in case you missed it. If that is not good enough for you then that's your problem. The only sham that has been exposed is the trinity riddle. If you want to talk about unbiblical gnostic interpretations take a look at the riddle of the trinity you don't even understand yourself. It's a like a desiel mechanic trying to diagnose a medical condition only a physician can which makes you unqualified to debate your own doctrine since you don't even understand it yourself. How can you expect anyone to understand it? Those that do understand it see it for the sham it is - three Gods. If you look at the definition of "person" above you will see it means "being" as in a distinct being. So your God in three persons is the same as saying three distinct beings = three Gods. As Brad has brought to light, if you wish to believe in three Gods that is your choice but admit it in honesty instead of making the false claim of ONE God. You cannot believe in a trinity of three persons and claim to believe in ONE God at the same time. It has to be one or the other. Make up your mind.

[Truth Seeker-Joshua]

Peace

Hisway:

I am a simple lay person who carries a heavy burden for the Church to speak out against heresy.

You have yet to prove that the Trinity is heresy.

Notice the parable of the ten virgins Matthew 25:1-12:

Proves absolutley nothing towards your argument.
How can you prove that it is indeed Trinitarians who have taveled without oil?
Why can't the "oiless" be those who deny the Trinity?

I did not write the Bible and say those things.

But yet you act as if you wrote the parable of the 10 virgins, in order to further your stance.

I have not judged you.

Yes you have, several times. Along with several others on this forum.

You have reacted because you have been pricked in the heart.

And here you go again. You have no idea whats in my heart. In all truth, my heart actaully saddens and feels broken for you. You want to claim to walk in the footsteps of Jesus, but yet you are very far.

You have plainly stated that a heresy can be justifed by simply making a verbal confession that Jesus Christ is Lord and I have shown the Bible says otherwise.

I wrote:

And Jesus is in my heart, and He is my Savior and Lord. I love Jesus, and he has paved my road to Heaven for me.

This just shows again that you either do not read posts in full, or you cant comprehend what you read.

Now who's committing heresy?

A little heresy or a little sin

As you said.

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling as do I.

And here you go again, claiming your salvation, and not others. But like I said, you are clueless as to whats in my heart, except for how saddened I am for you.
But why bother, you'll just skim through all of these points against you and commit

A little heresy or a little sin

Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Isreal

[hisway]

Peace

Hisway:

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling as do I.

And here you go again, claiming your salvation, and not others. But like I said, you are clueless as to whats in my heart, except for how saddened I am for you.

Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Isreal

Re-read the quote above. Where does it say I claim my own salvation and not others? The phrase" work out your own salvation" was said to you as I also "work out my own salvation" You have to work out yours and I have to work out mine. We're on equal footing as far needing to work out our salvation. That is what that statement says.

You keep saying I claim to know what's in your heart. I never claimed or even implied any such thing. I said you got pricked in the heart simply by observing your reaction. An observation of a reaction has nothing to do with knowing what's in your heart.

Why can't the "oiless" be those you deny the trinity? For one thing the trinity was fabricated by the "oiless" in the first place. Those you have not been baptized in the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in tongues are "oiless". An imperative in the Oneness Pentecostal Church is that everyone receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost and all do. Nearly everyone I have encountered on this forum have mocked and scoffed at the Spirit Baptism inspite of the accounts in the Book of Acts. It is the "oiless" who do not have the guidance of the Spirit that get caught by heresy and deception. That is what the parable of the ten virgins is all about. That's not my personal opinion. Read the Book of Acts - it's all there in plain language. You don't need a dictionary or a concordance to figure the plan of salvation out. Read it for yourself, take it literally for what it says, it's presented in no uncertain terms. A confession of a Papal Creed is not going to save anyone. Jesus said you must be born again. And how to get born again is found in Acts 2:38 and the numerous recorded accounts in the Book of Acts. Heresy is darkness and light hath no fellowship with darkness. Get real with the Truth of God's Word instead of making excuses not to follow His plan of salvation that He shed His blood to make possible. He paid a great price the least we can do is obey.

[BradtheImpaler]

]

Admission of Defeat?
You lost, unless you can prove that Jesus is not Deity then you have clearly lost, ask anyone on this forum. You clearly stated that the FATHER ALONE posseses Deity, and I have proved you WRONG, your obviously taking your DEFEAT and displacing it upon me.
Wake me up when you are ready to disprove me! You have been circling around my Scriptural refutation from the get go, anyone can see this.

You states that the FATHER ONLY posseses Deity, I posted a IRREFUTABLE argument that proves that the SON ALSO posseses Deity. If you cannot prove within the verse I posted that Jesus is NOT DEITY, then you are INCORRECT in stating that the FATHER ALONE, Posseses Deity.

Admit it, your wrong. I may make mistakes in my commentaries, however I DO NOT make mistakes when the SCRIPTURES ITSELF proves me correct. Be man enough and admit that the Scriptures I posted IRREFUTABLY proves the DEITY OF CHRIST!

YOU LOSE!

I am sorry that you are incapable of following a train of thought that cannot be answered with a pre-programmed response. I'm trying to help you "think outside the box" for once but it appears hopeless? If you had read my posts carefully, you would have realized that to disprove the deity of Christ was never my intention. In fact, the deity of Christ and the distinction between him and the Father are the very elements which comprised my premise - namely, IF these things are both true, then there cannot be ONLY one God. Very simple and inescapable conclusion, I believe. For you to challenge me to disprove the deity of Christ is "out in left field". I have already GRANTED your points for the sake of presenting my challenge. You are avoiding the logical conclusion of your own premises - THAT is what I am trying to point out.

[Aineo]

Heresy is darkness and light hath no fellowship with darkness. Get real with the Truth of God's Word instead of making excuses not to follow His plan of salvation that He shed His blood to make possible. He paid a great price the least we can do is obey.

However, you would teach us to be disobedient:

Matthew 28:16-20
16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17 And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. " NAS

When the jailer asked Paul and Barnabas what he must do to be saved he was not told to repent and be baptized:

Acts 16:30-34
"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household." 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. 33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. 34 And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.
NAS

Baptizm is an act of obedience not a pre-requisite for salvation.

Paul make is clear in 1 Corinthians that not all have the gift of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:29-31
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. NAS

James does not write that he will show his faith by tongues, but by works.

[(Omega)]

Hello Omega:

With that being said, how can God bear witness twice?
If the Father (God) and the Son (that same God) bears witness?

Then who was the second witness, being as though there is only one God who beared witness? Unless the Son is not the same God, then only God beared witness, meaning one witness.

Thank God there's a rational/sane person in these parts. This example of the "2 witnesses" absolutely proves that Jesus and the Father are not both God, OR, that they are not the SAME God.

The point that is missed is the fact that Jesus as a man had a dual nature as both God (deity) and man (humanity). As God manifest in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16) Jesus performed a dual role in His bodily form. As deity (Col 2:9) He revealed the person of the Father (Heb 1:3). As a man He took on the role as the sacrificial Lamb (John 1:21) and the last Adam (Rom 5:14; 1 Cor 15:45) to make the atonement to redeem mankind.

Some of the contention in this debate has been a play on the meaning of words. So I have quoted impartial definitions below of specific words (highlighted above in bold) to help clear up the misunderstanding:

manifest - V., 1. to make clear or evident; show plainly; reveal. 2. to prove; be evident.

manifestation - N., 3. a form in which a being manifests itself. 4. the material or bodily form of a spirit.

person - N., 4. personality; self; being.

personality - N., 2. the quality or fact of being a particular person; personal identity; individuality.

nature - N., 2. inborn character; innate disposition; inherent tendencies of a person. 5. any or all of the instincts, desires, appetites, drives, etc of a person.

To isolate a single passage of Scripture such as John 8:17,18 (the two witness testimony) and then extrapolate a doctrine from it while ignoring established precepts is not sound doctrine. Sound doctrine is built precept upon precept (Isa 28:9,10,13). The one precept we agree on is there is only ONE God. That precept alone excludes any notion of a trinity.

Precept No. 1: There is ONE God, a single Spirit Being.

Precept No. 2: The Deity of Jesus in the Role as Father:

"...God was manifest [made clear or evident; shown plainly; revealed; proved; evidenced] in the flesh..." (1 Tim 3:16)

Since the ONE God is a Spirit and a manifestation is a material or bodily form in which a spirit being reveals itself then the obvious meaning of 1 Tim 3:16 becomes clear: The ONE God took on the form of a man who is Jesus Christ. There is no other possibilty except that the ONE God was indeed Jesus as a Spirit revealed (manifested) as man. The invisible form of God made visible. Colossians 2:9 affirms this precept: "For in Him [Jesus Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." What God did Jesus reveal? The answer: "Who [Jesus as a man, Son] being the brightness of his [the Father's] glory, and the express image of his [the Father's] person [personality; self; being]..." (Heb 1:3). Therefore the person Jesus revealed was the Father, thus Jesus pre-existed as the Father since there was none other but the ONE God who pre-existed. Jesus said, "when you have seen Me you have seen the Father".


Precept No.3: The Humanity of Jesus in the Role as Son:

"...[Adam] who is the figure of him [Jesus Christ] that was to come". (Rom 5:14)

"The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Jesus Christ as Son] was made a quickening spirit" (1 Cor 15:45)

Jesus as God in the flesh was also fully man [Adam]. As God in human form He was God according to the divine nature [inborn character; innate disposition; inherent tendencies of the Father's person]. As a man He was fully human with a human body, mind (human will) and human soul. As a man He had all the desires, appetites and drives of a human person according to His human nature. His Divinity was inherited from the Spirit form of Himself (Father) and His humanity was inherited from Mary (a human woman). Thus, in the role of the Son, Jesus had a dual nature. As a man, He was fully limited as man. But since the Father indwelt the body as Spirit and the fact Jesus as man was literally conceived by the Spirit of God (Matt 1:18) that made Him unique. He could literally therefore claim to be the only begotten Son of God and at the same time claim to be of the human seed of David. As the Son as a man He was God (Father) revealed in reduced visible form while the Omnipresent Spirit remained Omnipresent as filling heaven at the same time indwelling a human body on earth. JESUS CLAIMED HIMSELF TO BE JUST THAT - on earth and in heaven at the same time: John 3:13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of Man which is in heaven."


Now getting to the issue of the two person witness. Jesus as as the Omnipresent Spirit God dwelling in heaven and indwelling the human body could testify as one witness. But since God in human form had the nature [inborn character; inherent tendencies of a person] as a man he could claim the second witness according to the human nature. The definition of natureas being the inborn character and inherent tendencies of a person qualifies the "person" requirement of the Jewish testimony law. Therefore, the invisible Spirit of God could bear witness with the visible human form of God and legally fulfill the testimony.

Omega, I have already answered and settled your two witness testimony question above in case you missed it. If that is not good enough for you then that's your problem. The only sham that has been exposed is the trinity riddle. If you want to talk about unbiblical gnostic interpretations take a look at the riddle of the trinity you don't even understand yourself. It's a like a desiel mechanic trying to diagnose a medical condition only a physician can which makes you unqualified to debate your own doctrine since you don't even understand it yourself. How can you expect anyone to understand it? Those that do understand it see it for the sham it is - three Gods. If you look at the definition of "person" above you will see it means "being" as in a distinct being. So your God in three persons is the same as saying three distinct beings = three Gods. As Brad has brought to light, if you wish to believe in three Gods that is your choice but admit it in honesty instead of making the false claim of ONE God. You cannot believe in a trinity of three persons and claim to believe in ONE God at the same time. It has to be one or the other. Make up your mind.

The Jews did not even ACCEPT HIM as the SON OF GOD!!!, do your research. You know as well as I know as well as EVERYONE knows that you CANNOT ANSWER MY REFUTATION. Your hiding behing the false representation of the Triune God as three gods as an ESCAPE, God is one in Unity and the SCRIPTURES CLEARLY says so, your obstinancy to submit to the Truth has you failnig to realize this. Firstly the Scriptures clearly speak of the Deity of Christ and secondly the Scriptures clearly speak of Him(Jesus the Son) as a separate person. The Bible painstakingly goes to the extreme to show a relationship between a Father(separate)who Loves His Son and is pleased with Him.

Matthew 17:5 - While he{autos}yet{eti}spake{laleo}, behold{idou}, a bright{photeinos} cloud{nephele}overshadowed{episkiazo}them{autos}: and{de}behold{idou}a voice{phone} out of{ek}the cloud{nephele}, which said{lego}, This{houtos}is{esti} my{mou} beloved{agapetos} Son{huios}, in{en} whom{hos}I am well pleased{eudokeo}; hear ye{akouo}him{autos}.

If manifest and person are the same the you have TWO PERSONS!!!

God Bless!

[(Omega)]

btw, I forgot to mention this :

as being the inborn character and inherent tendencies of a person qualifies the "person" requirement of the Jewish testimony law. Therefore, the invisible Spirit of God could bear witness with the visible human form of God and legally fulfill the testimony.

Did I mention to you that the Jews did not even accept Him as the Son of God an had accused Him of Blasphemy, secondly the invisible spirit of God would make one spirit and it does not matter how many forms you have, you have one spirit not two, therefore making it one witness, thus your argument remains in error. An inborn character is ANOTHER PERSON! A Son who has inherent traits is not the same person but is another. Read the Scriptures. Apparently Jesus was trying to be sneaky using the Two witnesses as an excuse, unbeknownst to them, His Invisible Spirit form was the other witness.

Two witnesses are Two witnesses, Jesus adhered to the Law and was obedient to it.

Revelation 11:3 - And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

I suppose the First witness is the Invisible Spirit Form while the other is the Human form? Can I uses the same for the above verse? Why not? You used it by distorting Scriptures! Your teaching methods will cause many to be led astray because there is a probability that such methods will be used by others and incorporate them within other passages in scripture, thus giving birth to more heresies. hisway you had better take heed because you will be held accountable for teaching a heretical doctrine when you stand before God Almighty. You may feel that God loves you for teaching a heresy, I do not discount that God may Love you, what I do know is that He striving with you because you do not want to submit to the Truth.

God Bless!

[Truth Seeker-Joshua]

Peace all...

Hisway:

Where does it say I claim my own salvation and not others?

Do you really want to be embarrassed if I pull you comdemnation quotes from all of your previous posts on the forum?

You keep saying I claim to know what's in your heart. I never claimed or even implied any such thing.

I said you got pricked in the heart simply by observing your reaction.

Maybe you have an odd way of thinking, but saying "you got pricked in the heart", claims that you know the feelings of one's heart.

For one thing the trinity was fabricated by the "oiless" in the first place.

Ya know, i get tired of saying this. You havent offered a shred of proof to back this statement up. But then again, you never really do. You think that your comprehension of the scripture is fact.

Those you have not been baptized in the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in tongues are "oiless"

No scripture proof on this one either.

That's not my personal opinion. Read the Book of Acts - it's all there in plain language.

Yes friend, the book of Acts is there, yet your comprehended version is not.

Jesus said you must be born again. And how to get born again is found in Acts 2:38 and the numerous recorded accounts in the Book of Acts.

I pray someday that you get past the books of Acts, and into other books preaching Jesus's gospel. The path to salvation is found throughout Jesus's word in the NT, not just Acts.

Get real with the Truth of God's Word instead of making excuses not to follow His plan of salvation that He shed His blood to make possible.

Here you go again with your heresy. I have made no excuses regarding my salvation. I am saved.
God's plan of salvation has already been carried out. (I really think you need to read past Acts).

Well, Ill just wait for you new interpertation of scripture on your next post.

Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Isreal

[Endurance]

One does not have to know what is in your heart, to acknowledge the spirit in statements and reactions that have been manifested...

WIth Love,
The Persecuted...

[(Omega)]

]

Admission of Defeat?
You lost, unless you can prove that Jesus is not Deity then you have clearly lost, ask anyone on this forum. You clearly stated that the FATHER ALONE posseses Deity, and I have proved you WRONG, your obviously taking your DEFEAT and displacing it upon me.
Wake me up when you are ready to disprove me! You have been circling around my Scriptural refutation from the get go, anyone can see this.

You states that the FATHER ONLY posseses Deity, I posted a IRREFUTABLE argument that proves that the SON ALSO posseses Deity. If you cannot prove within the verse I posted that Jesus is NOT DEITY, then you are INCORRECT in stating that the FATHER ALONE, Posseses Deity.

Admit it, your wrong. I may make mistakes in my commentaries, however I DO NOT make mistakes when the SCRIPTURES ITSELF proves me correct. Be man enough and admit that the Scriptures I posted IRREFUTABLY proves the DEITY OF CHRIST!

YOU LOSE!

I am sorry that you are incapable of following a train of thought that cannot be answered with a pre-programmed response. I'm trying to help you "think outside the box" for once but it appears hopeless? If you had read my posts carefully, you would have realized that to disprove the deity of Christ was never my intention. In fact, the deity of Christ and the distinction between him and the Father are the very elements which comprised my premise - namely, IF these things are both true, then there cannot be ONLY one God. Very simple and inescapable conclusion, I believe. For you to challenge me to disprove the deity of Christ is "out in left field". I have already GRANTED your points for the sake of presenting my challenge. You are avoiding the logical conclusion of your own premises - THAT is what I am trying to point out.

Hopeless? Obviously your heart has been hardened to think "OUSTSIDE" the box! That has been my point from the get go, your not thinking outside the box, but inside. Pay attention carefully.
1. Scriptures prove the God is One.
2. Scriptures prove that Jesus is Deity
3. Scriptures prove that the Father is Deity
4. Scriptures prove that the Father is distinct from the Son.
5. Scriptures prove that Jesus and His Father are ONE AND DISTINCT(The Jews would not have sought to stone Him otherwise***Regardless of Jesus' quoting Psalms in regards to gods=judges, Jesus' point is not to deny deity, but to deny that He had said anything that could have necessarily be construed as the crime of blasphemy. NOTE He MADE HIMSELF GOD!!)
6. Scriptures state that GREAT is the mystery of Godliness
7. Scriptures state that Gods ways and thoughts are beyond yours as the heavens are higher than the Earth.

Either Jesus is Deity or He isn't, and if He is and is Distinct and as the Scriptures declare, He is also Eternal and uncreated as the Father is. The doctrine of a Triune God speaks for itself. However, you reasoning that it is an impossibility for a God to exist in three Eternal Persons by your logic that is within that brain of yours demonstrates that it is illogical in itself, why? Your finite reasoning is desperately trying to comprehend a God who has revealed Himself as three Eternal persons and with irrefutable scriptural proof to back it up. Now who is NOT thinking outside the box??? You do not want to submit to such a truth will only lead to self-deception. Furthermore you don't want to admit that your wrong to the audience on this forum, that my friend will only lead you deeper in falsehood.

God Bless!

[Endurance]

God is one... Father and Son are one, it is the same God who is both Father and Son. He is God, the self-existing, self-begotten, God... there is no other. He is One in number. But yet, he is Father and Son.

[(Omega)]

God is one... Father and Son are one, it is the same God who is both Father and Son. He is God, the self-existing, self-begotten, God... there is no other. He is One in number. But yet, he is Father and Son.

Very simple, and I cannot see as to why men and women cannot see the Tri-Unity that exists within the Scriptures. If the scriptures clearly state that the Son is distinct from the Father and is Eternal and states that He and His Father are One and that the Son shared His Glory and Love with the Father before the foundation of the World, there is a God who clearly exists in three uncreated eternal persons. The Scriptures speak for itself, if only one can open their heart to the Truth of what the scriptures speak. It teaches a Triune God, for one to say that they believe that the Father alone is God is in error because the Scriptures speak as the Son as Deity also. And for one to say that they believe the the Son is the Father is also in Error, because the Scriptures teach that He is distinct from the Father. And for one to teach that God manifested as three eternal persons uncreated and existing as One in Unity is in error also, why? Because He/She is going against the infinite understanding and complexity of God.
Once again, I'd rather trust in what the Scriptures REVEAL and not the understanding of finite man. I don't argue with the God-Breathed Scriptures! IN THAT DAY, regardless of how many debates of the Triune God are in session, I will be proven correct.

God Bless!

[Endurance]

I agree that Father and Son are both diety, but they are the same diety. One in number. Only one God who is Father and Son. But I also, understand why people believe they are different persons. They don't understand how the Father can be the Son as well as Father. The Spirit is His (God's) spirit. Which is why it is refered to as the Spirit of Christ as well as the spirit of God (The Father). Just like if I refer to Brad and his spirit. IT is Brad's spirit that I am talking about and not another person.

Romans 8:9 - But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Peter 1:11 - Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Jeremiah 31:33 - But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Romans 8:11 - But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1 Corinthians 2:10 - But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Father and Son, gives same spirit which is both the Father's and the Son's. They are One in being, person, existence, and diety. This is God who is one. And beside Him there is no other...

With Love,
The Persecuted...

[Aineo]

You have helping us make our point. The Father and Son are distinct persons in Scripture and are one God.

2 John 9-11
9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds. NAS

[BradtheImpaler]

You have helping us make our point. The Father and Son are distinct persons in Scripture and are one God

What do you mean by "one"?

[(Omega)]

I agree that Father and Son are both diety, but they are the same diety. One in number. Only one God who is Father and Son. But I also, understand why people believe they are different persons. They don't understand how the Father can be the Son as well as Father. The Spirit is His (God's) spirit. Which is why it is refered to as the Spirit of Christ as well as the spirit of God (The Father). Just like if I refer to Brad and his spirit. IT is Brad's spirit that I am talking about and not another person.

Romans 8:9 - But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Peter 1:11 - Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Jeremiah 31:33 - But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Romans 8:11 - But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1 Corinthians 2:10 - But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Father and Son, gives same spirit which is both the Father's and the Son's. They are One in being, person, existence, and diety. This is God who is one. And beside Him there is no other...

With Love,
The Persecuted...

Listen to your heart and listen to what even your post have to say to you!
For the Spirit Indeed searcheth all things as the Scriptures state, and the Spirit of Christ does dwell within us and so does the Holy Spirit, whoever has ears to hear let them hear:

John 14:23 - Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make (our abode) with him.

How many is we and our?

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you (another Comforter), that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: (I will come to you). John 14:16-18

Jesus said along with Him, His Father will send Another comforter!

God Bless!

[hisway]

Peace all...

Hisway:

Where does it say I claim my own salvation and not others?

Do you really want to be embarrassed if I pull you comdemnation quotes from all of your previous posts on the forum?

You keep saying I claim to know what's in your heart. I never claimed or even implied any such thing.

I said you got pricked in the heart simply by observing your reaction.

Maybe you have an odd way of thinking, but saying "you got pricked in the heart", claims that you know the feelings of one's heart.

For one thing the trinity was fabricated by the "oiless" in the first place.

Ya know, i get tired of saying this. You havent offered a shred of proof to back this statement up. But then again, you never really do. You think that your comprehension of the scripture is fact.

Those you have not been baptized in the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in tongues are "oiless"

No scripture proof on this one either.

That's not my personal opinion. Read the Book of Acts - it's all there in plain language.

Yes friend, the book of Acts is there, yet your comprehended version is not.

Jesus said you must be born again. And how to get born again is found in Acts 2:38 and the numerous recorded accounts in the Book of Acts.

I pray someday that you get past the books of Acts, and into other books preaching Jesus's gospel. The path to salvation is found throughout Jesus's word in the NT, not just Acts.

Get real with the Truth of God's Word instead of making excuses not to follow His plan of salvation that He shed His blood to make possible.

Here you go again with your heresy. I have made no excuses regarding my salvation. I am saved.
God's plan of salvation has already been carried out. (I really think you need to read past Acts).

Well, Ill just wait for you new interpertation of scripture on your next post.

Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Isreal

At least we know where each other stands on certain issues. It's true I can go overboard and I have in threads past. I admit in my early posts I was taken off guard and reacted in retaliation rather than in meekness. However, when I speak out my intent is not against individuals but against issues of doctrine. If we allow ill will to build up then we will disagree for the sake of disagreement alone. Perhaps we will be more agreable in your Israel thread which I will get around to. The subject of Israel is a favored topic of mine and I think it will be a refreshing change.

[Truth Seeker-Joshua]

Then we agree to disagree.
I will wait for your opinions on my Isreal thread.
(Another favorite topic of mine)

Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Isreal

[Amadeus]

BradtheImpaler:

Think of it this way: someone who is suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder is still considered one person. The person is "fractured". The goal of psychotherapy for a "fractured" person is to get them to realize that their personalities are all THEM.
SOOO....
Even though this is not the best example, God is like a person with MPD. He has three distinct personalities that can talk to eachother and everything, but He is still the same God.

Is that any clearer? Also, go beyond YOUR reluctance to think outside of the box and let's talk some scripture. The proof is in there. Ponder it and maybe you'll have a change of heart.

Warm regards,
Amadeus

[hisway]

BradtheImpaler:

Think of it this way: someone who is suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder is still considered one person. The person is "fractured". The goal of psychotherapy for a "fractured" person is to get them to realize that their personalities are all THEM.
SOOO....
Even though this is not the best example, God is like a person with MPD. He has three distinct personalities that can talk to eachother and everything, but He is still the same God.

Is that any clearer? Also, go beyond YOUR reluctance to think outside of the box and let's talk some scripture. The proof is in there. Ponder it and maybe you'll have a change of heart.

Warm regards,
Amadeus

Apparently the condition affects the Biblical understanding of those who believe in it as well if left untreated. But the cure of the medicine of the Oneness Doctrine clears it up quickly. Another old fashioned remedy that works is to cast that lying three-headed devil out in the name of Jesus.