Aineo wrote:Ah, I see you made two posts and I missed one, so you did respond to my question. It is unfortunate that you are so isolated from the real world you have not met an ex-gay since there are hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) in our society.

I highly doubt that. Your assertion that there are hundreds of thousands of ex-gays is simply laughable considering they are a minute minority within another minute minority. I have moved all over the world during the duration of my life and have gone to approximately 10 different schools. I sincerely don't think my 'isolation' has anything to do with it.

Ex-gay ministries did not initiate reparative therapy. Bieber advocated reparative therapy in his book "Homosexuality" published in 1968, which was praised by the APA for its fresh approach to counseling homosexuals seeking change. The first ex-gay ministry (Love In Action, founded by Frank Worthen) was organized in 1973. So once again you are sharing bad information based on your own prejudice and hostility to the reality of how homosexual desires are developed in the vast majority of people.

Then why do groups such as Exodus and NARTH use reparative therapy? :roll:

I have met many gays and lesbians. I have met NO ex-gays. Your evidence for a large ex-gay population is lacking and so is your appeal to personal experience.

As to the Italian study, it is just as valid (if not more so) than the propaganda disseminated by gay activism over the last 30 years, which is based on a decision made as the result of activism and the power of gay psychiatrists and a pack of outright lies. There is no scientific proof that homosexuality is genetic making it innate, immutable, and unchangeable. The fact neither APA will sanction unbiased studies simply calls the veracity and credibility of these “professional organizations” into question.

Again, you misunderstood my argument. It is not the credibility of Camperio's study I am attacking. It is your conclusions based off his study that I am attacking. You take his study, which is inconclusive at best, and somehow use it as evidence that homosexuality is not innate and a choice, when his study does not conclude to such a thing! Your habit of making leaps of inconsistent logic is irritating.

As to removing homosexuality from the DSM III because it is not pathological in the sense homosexuality is a disease is what I agree with. However, if you take the time to check the definition of pathological as defined by psychiatry homosexuals can be pathological in their behavior and as such is a treatable condition not much different than any other pathological condition. And that includes the ability to change ones sexual orientation.

What in the world? Talk about contradicting one's self.

1.) You haven't shown sufficient evidence for anyone to believe your claim that sexual orientation can be changed.

2.) All you have done is attacked the idea of innate homosexuality with inconclusive research and make claims of a socio-political conspiracy within the APA when it is completely irrelevant to whether homosexuality is a pathological disorder.

3.) Even if sexual orientation isn't innate, you have YET to show me evidence that it can be changed. The innateness of sexual orientation has no direct correlation to the likelihood of changing it, which is an erroneous assumption you continually make.

4.) Now you say you agree that homosexuality isn't pathological but say it is under certain definitions? Which is it?

I am not surprised that you have decided to call all ex-gays liars or self-deceived since to admit that some people have changed totally destroys the idea that homosexuality is innate.

It makes no difference to me. If homosexuality is not innate, I am sure heterosexuality is not innate either.

And in spite of your denials by encouraging gay youth to come out before they are emotionally mature does add to their stress and is a factor in gay teen suicides.

I already mentioned my position on the timing of coming out several times and I don't know why you have chosen to ignore them. I don't like repeating myself. Take the time to reread my post on coming out before we continue speaking on it.