Introduction
I noticed some months ago this same post by Abdurrahman on this forum; at that particular time, I had no time to sit down and refute such a lengthy article.
This time however, since Abdurrahman has posted the same post a second time he is asking for a reply, a lengthy one also.
Let me just say, before I start, that I have never read such ridiculous argumentation; and to refute it and debunk Abdurrahman at this point is going to be an easy task.
The post is a typical example of Muslim desperation and their dishonesty in tampering with the Word of God, even to turn to lies, false statements and dishonest interpretation.
So reader, sit back, be chocked, but have fun.
Abdurrahman wrote:
Paul: how he invented the current Christian faith & destroyed that of Jesus
One of the most confusing sections of the Bible is those epistles (letters) that Paul wrote. They are not considered "gospels" & yet they fill more than half the pages of the New Testament.
Kai replies:
Actually the writings of Paul are fairly smaller than the Gospels, and when we consider the other New Testament writings such as Acts, the General Epistles and the book of Revelation, it far from presents half of the New Testament.
But even if it did, so what?
Abdurrahman wrote:
They contain a lot of contradictory statements & are the real cause for the deviation of current Christianity from its original righteous path. They were the seed that started the division of the Christian faith into several opposing sects.
Kai replies:
Exactly, how do you historically prove that?
Abdurrahman wrote:
From the moment these epistles were included in the holy book, Christianity kept drifting farther & farther away from its simple forgiving origins. The core of today's Christianity barely has any connection with Jesus' preaching & has even shifted far from Paul's deviations (absurd as they may be):
Kai replies:
Again, exactly, how do you prove that bro! It’s one thing to throw a range of absurd and speculative claims on this forum, it’s another matter to prove them.
Secondly, it would surprise you bro, that it is exactly the core of Christianity, which has not shifted from Paul’s writings and they certainly focus on the teachings of Christ.
If you bothered to study the New Testament you would notice that there is complete consistency between Jesus and Paul.
I know the basics behind your claim, after all my whole studies are based on theology; therefore do not count me as one of the ignorant.
And besides what do you recon as absurd? Shall we turn to the Koran and pin point all the scientific absurdities or the permission to rape slaves and war prisoners not to forget the vast amount of contradictions and historical, mathematical and ethical absurdities?
Abdurrahman wrote:
1. Paul claimed that Jesus is "the Son of God" Romans1: 4, but not "the God". He is a Lord that comes 2nd to the Father.
Kai replies:
How about reading the New Testament:
‘Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen’ (Rom.9: 5).
Or how about Colossians 2: 9:
'For in Christ all the fullness of Deity lives in bodily form’
.
If you knew anything about Christian theology, especially Christology and Logos Theology and Logos Christology, New Testament background and early missionary contextualization you would understand the basic meaning behind 1 Cor. 8: 6:
‘
yet for us there is but one God, that Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live’
But I guess this is still too deep for a beginner. Not to offend you bro, but Learning theology takes time and hard work.
Abdurrahman wrote:
2. Paul never stated that God (the father) & Christ (the son) are one.
Kai replies:
Well, if the Divinity dwells in him, in bodily form…
Abdurrahman wrote:
3. Paul did not say that God & Christ are equal. Paul defined God as the father/the creator/the almighty/the greatest, while Jesus was always the follower who takes after the father.
Kai replies:
Well, the greatest one has the ability of omnipresence, and this attribute belongs to the Divine only, never a created being, yet Ephesians 4: 10 writes:
‘He (Jesus) who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe’.
This particular passage consists perfectly with the teachings of Christ:
‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you, and surely I am with you always, to the very end of age’ (Matthew 28: 18-20)
Abdurrahman wrote:
4. Paul never referred to any "trinity".
Kai replies:
And so? Trinity is a definition!
Abdurrahman wrote:
5. Paul did not designate mother Mary any divinity & never called her "the mother of Light (God)".
Kai replies:
Well this is what the Quran accusses Christianity for, which is highly dangerous game if you want to protect the integrity of the Koran; however, you are right Paul never designated such practice and neither did Jesus; so again we see that the teachings of Jesus and Paul consists.
Let me however, correct you, Christians do not believe that Mary is God or divine; it’s a fact that attributes have be ascribed to her, which are highly unbiblical such a the practice to pray to Mary, but this is not a part of Biblical doctrine.
Abdurrahman wrote:
Paul may have put down the foundation of Christianity, but the Patriarchs/Monks/Priests throughout the years have added a multi-story building on top of this base, a building that Paul himself (let alone Jesus Christ) never intended to be erected!
Kai replies:
But then again, false teaching is always present, whether we speak about the Bible or the Koran.
However, can you exactly provide the documentation, which proves that later Christian scholar’s sat down and deliberately fabricated and added such a doctrine.
Because personally I don’t need to elaborate on the church fathers or the early councils to believe in Jesus divinity; as a matter of fact Scripture is sufficient.
However, to elaborate a bit more on this; if we are going to see this whole matter from your point of view, one of these addings are related to the Logos Christology.
If you want to debate on this matter, go ahead bro, I have a lot of ammunition.
My point is, if the Logos is a later fabrication, then why does the Koran so specifically entitle Jesus the Word of God, and a Spirit proceeding from Allah:
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was no more than a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which he bestowed upon Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him…(Sura 4: 171)
While the passage clearly rejects Christ’s divinity and Trinity, the language which Muhammad utilizes is Johannine Theological terms, taken from the Gospel of John, in which Jesus is the Word of God (and therefore God) and the Holy Spirit the spirit of Allah proceeding from him.
These definitions were some of the major terms used by later scholars in their doctrine about the Trinity, however, notice they are not later but actual biblical.
My point is: what are these definitions doing in the Koran?
Clearly you have a problem here!
Abdurrahman wrote:
Notes on Paul's autobiography [according to Acts (of the Apostles) in the Holy Book]
1. In Acts 9 Saul (Paul's original Jewish name before embracing Christianity) is portrayed (years after the ascent of Christ to Heaven) as a fanatic anti-Christ Jew who was "breathing out murderous threats against the disciples of the Lord." He went to the high priest of Jerusalem & asked him for letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus deputizing Saul to arrest any man or woman embracing the new religion & bring them bound in chains back to Jerusalem. "As he journeyed & came near Damascus, a light from Heaven suddenly flashed around him making him fall to the ground. He then heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul why are you persecuting me?" So he said, "Who are you, Lord?" Then Jesus replied, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. Get up & get into the city & you will be told what you must do." At this very moment Saul shifted his beliefs from the far-left anti-Christ stand to become a far right fanatic pro-Christ! Now, three versions of this incident appear in this section of the Bible [Acts], not one of them is identical with the other. So let's review them & note the differences:
a) In Acts 9 "The men travelling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. They led him by the hand to Damascus. For 3 days he was blind & did not eat or drink anything."
b) In Acts 22: 9 "…my companions indeed saw the light & were afraid, but they did not hear the voice.."
c) In Acts 26: 13 " … along the road I saw a light from Heaven stronger than the sun, shining around me & those who journeyed with me. We all had fallen to the ground when I heard a voice speaking to me in Hebrew…"
So, in version (a) the companions heard the sound but did not see the light & Saul was blinded. In version (b) they saw the light but did not hear the voice. In version (c) all of them fell to the ground (not just Saul as in a). How can the same crucial event be narrated by the same man (Paul) in the same chapter (only few pages apart) of the same book (the Bible) & be that different? There is no plausible explanation other than being a fabrication or that the man is feeble-minded.
Kai replies:
Bro, honestly you need to read these passages again.
Acts 9: 7 states that the men saw no one; however, this phrase in no way contradict Acts 22: 9 which simply states that the men saw a bright light, not Jesus.
This is further confirmed by Acts 26: 13 which verifies that the light was shining all around them; whoever neither text states that the men saw Jesus.
Similarly in Acts 22: 9 the men did no hear the voice; however, they did hear a sound. A similar phenomena occurs in John 12: 27-29:
‘Now my (Jesus) heart is troubled, and what shall I say? Father, save Me from this hour? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father glorify your name’!
Then a voice came from heaven: ‘I have glorified it and will glorify it again’. The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.
Well who is now feeble-minded!
Abdurrahman wrote:
2. Now let us carry on with the story in Acts 9 "In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, "Arise & go to the house of Judas on the street named Straight & ask for the man from Tarsus, Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he saw a man named Ananias coming in & putting his hand on him to restore his sight." Ananias said to the Lord, "I have heard from many about the man & all the harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. He has come here with an authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name." But the Lord said to him, "Go, this man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles & their kings & before the people of Israel." Then Ananias went into the house & on placing his hands on Saul he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus-who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here-has sent me so that you may see again & be filled with the Holy Spirit. Immediately something like scales fell from Saul's eyes & he could see again. He got up & was baptized. After taking some food, he regained his strength. Immediately, he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. " All of a sudden Paul becomes
"Immediately" an expert in Christianity & begins preaching it! And what does he preach: that Jesus is the son of God. Who taught him that? Where has he learned the principles of his preachings?
Kai replies:
Well bro, if you bothered to do your homework, you would have noticed that the ‘Son of God concept’ first appears in Old Testament Messianic prophecy, referring to the anointed one who will rule the world (Psalm 2); thus it is Old Testament terminology.
Secondly, the title Son of God was used as a reference to Jesus frequently before Jesus died and resurrected.
By the disciples (Matthew 15: 32), his followers (John 11: 27)
By the demons (Mark 3: 11)
By Jesus himself (Matthew 11: 25-27) (Matthew 26: 63-64) (John 10: 36) as attested by others (John 5: 17-18) (Matthew 26: 63) (Matthew 27: 40)