Quote:
The subject was about death by crucifixion not death in general.
But can you tell me where in the Qu'ran does it say that there was a difference between their attempt to "slay" Jesus, from their attempts and successes in slaying the prophets?
Realize what you are doing. You are approaching the Quran with a Christian perspective.
"Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!" (2:87)
and in their (the Jews) disbelief they spoke against Maryam grave false charges, and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so. And verily those who differed there in (that he was not crucified nor killed) were indeed in doubt about it. They had no knowledge about it except that they followed conjecture, and for surety they killed him not,(Quran 4:156-159)
In the Quran Jesus was only of those who were called imposters and not of those who were slain cause he was not killed by them.
There are no basis for arguing that they wanted him to come down from the cross, because that is not the way the Messiah will die. Their argument was, 'if God is on your side, then you will not die.' Furthermore, the fact that the Messiah was believed to be the one to sit on the throne of David, then a dead Messiah certainly won't fulfill that, can he? So, if he is the Messiah, the Son of God, His Chosen One, how can he then die?
How is he the son of David ie a descendant of David when his mother was a Levite and Joseph was not a his biological father ?
That was their mistake, of course, that they did not understand that he had to die!
That it not a reality base; The Jewish expectation of the Messiah is contrary to your beliefs. So its a matter of belief not reality.
Quote:
the Arguement is based on what the Torah says. This was the final confirmation if he was a messiah and prophet of G-D o not.
Well, the prophets did die, many of them at the hands of the Jews. That does not deny that they were prophets, does it?
Again it depends on how they were killed. As far as we know and on document bases Jesus was the only prophet whom the Jews attempted to kill by crucifixion. You are missing the point, and going off of it. All the prophets died, indeed, some of them were killed by their enemies some died natural deaths, this has nothing to do with the Law of Deut. It is clear the Jews attempted to convict Jesus under the Law of crucifixion in Torah. There is no eveidence that they tried such a thing with former prophets, and if such a thing did happened with death by crucifixion then there is a flaw in the Law which deprives it of being divinely inspired.
Yes, you say the crucifixion, but that is not existent in any of the texts, not one says that they argued that the Messiah could not die on the cross; their argument was that the Messiah had to sit on the throne of David, therefore, it was not reasonable to expect him to die.
If you dont know what inference expressions are as the Gospels have conveied form the enemies of Jesus then our dialogue is fruitless then ie I see what you cannot see or you see what I cannot see.
Quote:
Now if I quoted that out of context it would sond like the Jews we acknowledging him as the Messiah but in the context it clearifies it was a mockery right ?
In the first line, you can see that it says that they don't believe, there is no way to mistake that. The previous verses say they don't believe, and the following verses say they don't believe.
Go back and read the post you missing the point. I am not disagreeing with you, I was showing your flaw in approach to the Quran.
Now, none of these three implies at all that the Jews did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah -- not one! The verse on Mary is in itself a separate thought, even with your attempt to make them one single line of thought, they are quite separate thoughts.
And you read them out of context, dont you see the conjuction "
and" at the begining of that verse which is a continuation of the following verse ?
..and in their (the Jews)
disbelief they
spoke against Maryam grave false charges
and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so(Quran 4:156-159)
You can quote all you want there is a context of that clause. It continues in conjuction of their disbelief of there "saying" which expresses mere slander and mockery. No muslim interprets this as what you are trying to make it to be. You have taken it our of context this was my point.
As you can see, the passage does not say anything about the Jews mocking, but not meaning it, that Jesus is the Messiah. It merely speaks about their unbelief in general
Their saying of calling Jesus "The Messiah the messenger of Allah" was disbelief as the context reflects it. This is mockery.
Quote:
To bring that verse up is irrelevant. It has the same foundamental meaning with Yahya
The link I gave above should help to explain what I used that verse for. If you have any questions, let me know.
Side note... Did not John die?
I see you havent been reading some of my other posts on other Forums and you assuming what my beliefs are about Jesus based on main stream muslim TRADITIONAL beliefs. Let me just give you Quranic everses Again.
[19] So Peace on him(Yahya) the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that he will be raised up to life (again)!
http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispT ... =eng&t=eng
[19] "So Peace is on me(Jesus) the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!"
http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispT ... =eng&t=eng
And they (the enemies of Jesus) plotted (to kill him) and Allah to plotted, and Allah is the best of plotters. When Allah said : "O Jesus ! Verily I am causing you to decease (mutawafee) while raising you to my self and purifying you from those who are disbelievers".....(Quran 3:54-55)
and in their (the Jews) disbelief they spoke against Maryam grave false charges, and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so. And verily those who differed there in (that he was not crucified nor killed) were indeed in doubt about it. They had no knowledge about it except that they followed conjecture, and for surety they killed him not, rather Allah raised him up to himself (ref. 3:54-55) and Allah is almighty all wise (Quran 4:156-157)
[On the Day of Judgement Jesus will say] I did not say to them (the Jews and my followers) but what you commanded me to say that "Worship Allah (In Aramaic Aalah) my Lord and your Lord" and I was a witness over them (the Jews) when I dwelt among them whereas you caused me to decease (ref. 3:54-55) you were the watcher over them and you are a witness over everything (5:116-118)
Your Christian wesite's
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=4748 Criticism using verse 19:33 to confirm Jesus's death and then trying to associate it with his crucifixion is rebounded on one Islamic School of thought and not all of them (in which I believe they were ignorant off). We, another School of thought, do not believe Jesus is still alive as some muslims believe and nor do we believe he will return again. Indications of such in hadith are merely symbolic references in the light of ALL the hadiths that allude to a second coming. The Quran confirms no second coming, nor does the Quran confirm he is still physically alive. The Quran states that he died during his ascension to Allah, which has been grossly over looked edited and taken out of its context by Chritians to fit their criticism, and by some Muslims to cooborrate with Hadith.
zampeada wrote:
i only believed that Isa survived from the attempt of killing him, either natural way or humiliating and painful such as crucify.
jews believed that they killed him, but they was wronged. they are too soon to assume he was death.
isa survived and live to old age. not ascended to heaven as most muslim scholars believed. there was no second coming!
that what i believed.
H2O supports zampeada wrote:
Yes, I believe that there will be no second coming as well. However, the views about the ascension is divided among muslims yes in deed.
Some look at "rafi'a" ~ to be raised as meaning " he was raised to a place of honor just as another prophet in the Quran was also raised etc." but his body remains somewhere on earth like his mother's.
Then some others believe he was actually physically raised and raised to a place of honor with all the righteous prophets who have passed away in the past.
Then third party believes just like the Christians believe that he is somewhere in heaven alive and will return
I would settle for he was physically raised and raised to honor cause if he was left here on earth more than likely his follower would have built a Dome over his grave, I mean look at what they are doing with items that they claim to be associated with him. Jus imagine if Christians knew where hsi burial was every christian would have made this a pilgrimage over flooding Al-Quds.
See this is what I mean, you learn your criticism from Chrisitian web sites that mix up the various schools of thought , then you try to apply that knowledge with christian perspective and prestige in debate with those who are not associated with that form of thaught or belief.
Jesus died in his time (during his ascention), just as Yahya died during his time as well. Their raising up ie revived to life will be on the day of resurrection.
I have read the Qu'ran, and I have read other literary works of the Muslims.
I believe you when you said this, but when you were reading the Quran what was your intentions, was your heart pure in seeking for truth or blackened seeking for curruption ?
none shall touch it (the Quran) except those who are pure (Quran 56:79)
The Quran are words, words cannot be physically touched, but can only be touched with the heart in order to understand them to graps them.
You read Quran but missed soo much and only remembered what you can benifit from inorder to use whatever it may be as a tool against your opposers, not just that your crisiticism is merely mimicing another in dictatorial aspect and non of it so far that I have seen comes from a non dictatorial aspect.