Christian/Muslim ThreadsIs Jesus Really God?Hello all,
On the contrary, "But Jesus answered them, ' My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.' Therfore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but also said that God was his Father, making himself equal to God." (John 5:17,18,) Why did the Jews understand Jesus to be saying he was equal to God? Did God Himself reveal that He was One, and entrust His revelation to the Jewish nation and religion? Strict Monotheism, correct? Yet Jesus told them He was equal to the Father. Jesus isn't the Father obviously, but they understood Him to be saying He was equal to Him. Did Jesus protest their conclusions? No He went on to elaborate His equality with, and relationship with the Father saying He did all the works that the Father does (vs.19), He says that as the Father raises the dead, so the Son does (vs.21), He says the Father has given all judgement to the Son (vs. 22), in vs. 23 He says, That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent Him." How do men honour the Father? As God, correct? Or consider. . ." Truly, truly, I say to you, that before Abraham was born, I am." (John 8:58,) Jesus directly lifts the ineffable name of God from Exodus 3:14 and applies it to Himself. The greek Septuagint renders both of these phrasings as "Ego Eimi", or, I AM, transliterated into English. The Jews again understood exactly what Jesus meant, because in the next verse we read, "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." (John 8:59) Why didn't He simply say, "No, no, you have mis-understood. I do not claim Deity for Myself." ? Guest wrote:
We have more evidence for the historicity and accuracy of the New Testament than for any other book, or books from antiquity. There are over 5,000 extant manuscript copies, the Dead Sea Scrolls, containing large portions of the OT from before 100 c.e. ; The "Great Isaiah Scroll", from 100 b.c.e. We have the Nag Hammadi texts, which verify the Apostles understanding of the differences between Christianity and Gnosticism; this from the gnostics themselves. We can completely re-construct the entire NT from the writings of the early Church fathers, which quoted them at length in their own correspondences. We have the presence of creeds within the text itself (1st Cor. 15:3b, 4), (1st Timothy 3:16), with the verse in 1st Timothy stating this : "God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." A creed was an oral confession designed for a two-fold purpose. 1) To declare doctrine for the sake of unity of belief,and purity of doctrine. 2) To declare position to counter heretical teaching. This usage pre-dated it's inclusion in the first epistle to Timothy, whom tradition teaches was ordained by Paul as the first Bishop of Ephesus. 1st Corinthians is universally accepted, and dated as being written in 54/55 c.e (Krummell, Introduction to the New Testament, pg. 275) In short, the New American Standard Version of the Bible, is the most accurate word for word transliteration, and is closer to the original language than any other English translation available, and is faithful to the best, and most accurate extant manuscripts there are. 5THRaven wrote: [/quote]Ah, on set of people claim that God can take a physical form (A.K.A. Jesus) and walk the earth despite its claims of inability. God has limits, God cannot limit God's power[/quote] This just doesn't make sense. God cannot limit His power, volitionally or otherwise, but He cannot take on human form? Isn't this a limitation of God's power? Besides that, let us look at the Torah itself. Genesis 32 tells us the story of Jacob wrestling with the alternately described angel, man, and God. Jacob would not let go of this Being until He blessed Jacob. Jacob was wounded, and the Being announced that his name would now be Israel, ". . .for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed." In vs. 30 " And Jacob called the name of that place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face." In Abraham 18 we have a clear picture of YWHW revealing Himself to Abraham in the form of a man. "And the LORD(YWHW, I AM) appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself to the ground." Abraham then goes on to request these 3 "men" stay for a meal. They consent and Sarah makes them the meal. During the course of the meal Abraham and Sarah were told that despite their old age, they would have a son. "And the LORD(again YWHW, I AM) said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, . . .Is anything to hard for the LORD?. . ." (Gen. 18:13a, 14a) vs. 16 "And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way." vs.17 "And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;" Abraham then goes on to Dialogue and intercede on behalf of the city of Sodom, always addressing the men as LORD. In vs. 33 we read "And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left off communication with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place." These are known as Theophanies, or Christophanies, (pre-incarnate visitations of the Deity). [/quote]This is most likely an affect of the paganization of Christianity in order to gain acceptance in th pagan world. [/quote] This is a commonly asserted arguement, often out of ignorance, because the opposite is, in fact, the case. Christianity rather influenced the pagan world. It came along in the full flower of the Roman empire. The widespread emphasis on keeping doctrines pure, as well as the very early-on developments of the above mentioned creeds; the Nag Hammadi texts which verify objectively that the gnostics understood themselves to be outside of orthodox Christianity, and such writings as Irenaeus' "Against Heresies", Clement's letters, Justin the Apologist's polemics against the paganism of the day, all point to the opposite of the position you state. Christianity overtook paganism, and any objective study of the history of the time, and the beliefs will serve to verify this. One more thing, Christianity won the pagan world by peace and Truth, in the midst of brutal repression and charges of "atheism" for not worshipping the Roman pantheons. Crucifixion, boiling "oil baths", the lions in the Colloseum, beheading and slavery and hardships unimaginable; the Church, and the Gospel of Christ won the world. Christianity faced the pagan world and beat it on all fronts. Intellectually, philosophically, aesthetically, scientifically; with regards to ethics, virtue, and pacifism, unmatched in the History of mankind. These are just the facts. By peace, Christianity won the world. But the Church is made up of the redeemed, and there have been many pretenders over the centuries. Yet, the truth of the Gospel remains in the world, and the ". . .gates of Hades, shall not prevail." Because that "Truth", is Jesus Christ, God , Son of God, I AM. And His Holy Spirit calls to us still. " Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice, and opens the door to me, I will come in to him, and sup with him, and he with me." (Rev. 3:20) Of course it's un-natural for mammals. Hence the miracle of the Incarnation of God, as promised in the Tanach. Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." Many say that by "virgin" it only meant, "young girl, or maiden". This is not correct. The culture dictates the context of understanding, and in Judaic, Monotheistic, Theocratic, Israel, a young girl or maiden was presupposed to be a virgin. You think the Puritans were harsh? That was nothing compared to the Patriarchy of the Priesthood, Prophets, and Kings. Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Immanuel translates from the Hebrew into English as "God with us." This is the reference given in Matthew 1:23. Now this is a most interesting series of Hebrew words. "Immanuel", is literally, "with us is God", or, "God with us" in the Hebrew. Of course 'el, is the common name for God in Hebraic culture, as the ineffable name of God was considered too Holy to utter. The Hebrews adapted the "arabic" word "al-aliah", from whence derives the Muslim name for God, "Allah." It is much like our generic form of using God without referencing a specific one, but within the culture, always knowing exactly which One is being spoken of. It turns out 'el is God to the Hebrews, but el is shortened from " 'ayil". This word sheds new light on the person of Christ. It means, "ram", as in the scapegoat of Leviticus,
You may have the Immaculate conception confused with the Roman Catholic Dogma of "perpetual virginity." However, scripture seems quite clear, as well as tradition, that Mary had other children with Joseph, after giving birth to Jesus. Joseph had thought to "...put her away", because she was his betrothed and to find out your maiden was pregnant was scandalous, sinful, and worthy of expulsion. However, he must have been a faithful man of God, because he endured and raised Jesus as his own, and continued in marraige with Mary, having other children with her. You are right, sex is as normal and holy as eating, breathing, "and paying homage to God." <<<This is the part that requires transcending the "animal" in our nature. This is Where the "Word was made flesh." Only Jesus Christ transcends that "animal nature", because He came DOWN form ABOVE. We are only of the earth, we cannot transcend our own mortality. Only Christ. That is why sex is holy. Because it is one of those few transcendent things God allows us, as a hint that there are such transcendent things. This is proof that we are more than "animals". Animals do not build temples to their great "ages, and poets, and philosophers". They do not make great works of art, music, and literature, by which life itself is transformed into something greater. Sex is one of God's gifts to us like art, music, and literature. It points us towards something greater than ourselves. Because that "self- awareness", cannot transcend nature since we are still only "men and women." But, this wasn't sex. Remember you said ". . .God cannot limit his power". Well if He can form a man of the dust of the ground , which, in turn, He also created, "ex nihilo", or literally, "out of nothing", then I would think it is you that limit His power by suggesting he couldn't form a baby in the womb. Sorry for being so boringly long-winded, but I thought these mis-conceptions deserved a lengthy retort. 8) Regards, Everett[/i] |
🌈Pride🌈 goeth before Destruction
When 🌈Pride🌈 cometh, then cometh Shame