Christian/Muslim ThreadsSin and its forgivenessPeace to you both Lady Fatima and Alexei. In this quote you used an excellent example, but it does have a problem. The teacher in this case, was seemingly powerless to change Alexei's study habits, as Alexei had chosen to be a lazy student. But, let's consider the teacher. In just sitting back and letting what he knew would happen, to happen, couldn't he be charged with the accusation he was not a good teacher? But what if, as a caring teacher, the teacher took the opportunity to do all things possible to HELP Alexei change his way. Perhaps he offered him personal tuition. Perhaps He found a way to encourage Alexei to see study has meaning and purpose. Who then holds the accountability for Alexei's inevitable failure? It's obvious it has to be Alexei Himself. Yes, the teacher knew that Alexei would fail, but He still did everything possible to make Alexei change his study habits. Would this not still ensure free will was left intact. Alexei in this case, made choices which were choices he could not blame his teacher for, as his teacher had done all possible to motivate and change Alexei's behaviour. Now, what if God, knowing that without his own personal intervention, man would never find Him or find forgiveness of sins, decided to do all things possible to provide a way to bring man back into relationship with him, even as far as becoming a man himself to show man WHY He needs a saviour.. who then would be responsible for man's eventual judgement and the consequences of rejecting those provisions? Of course, it is man Himself. does this interfere with the Omniscience of God.. of course not. If God is omniscient, he knows who will accept and reject his provision, but that didn't stop Him providing a means for and an invitation to all men to find in Him, their salvation. Now, can you please apply those same thoughts to this verse you quoted Lady Fatima I know you will tell me that Allah is over and above all and so we cannot question anything, but is there a comparison here between the two? This surah places the end result of man not turning to God and going to eternal punishment, squarely at the feet of Allah, who chooses for Himself whom He wills and guides unto Himself who turns to Him in repentance and obedience." Now, you asked me a question in your post To understand the reply I give, you will need to do something. Firstly, please read from the New Testament, Ephesians 1:3-14 The theme of the Bible, from start to finish, is that man is free to choose good or evil. Adam and Eve were free to choose to obey God or to disobey him. Their choice carried with it consequences. Obedience would have meant immortality and fellowship with God. Disobedience brought alienation and death. Joshua challenged the Hebrews to "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve..." (Josh. 24:15). Jesus says to all men, "Come unto me" (Matt. 11:28). This implies that we are able to do so. It would have been cruel for him to invite us to come knowing that we were incapable of doing so. We can't deny that God can and sometimes does predestine certain things to happen. Yet we have seen that God gives all of us with freewill. If we read in Acts 13:48. "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed." God ordained, even before the world was formed, that sinners could and would be saved if they believed on his Son, Jesus. When we come to faith in Christ then we are among those whom he ordained or predestined to eternal life. Rather than ordain that a particular person be saved and a particular person be lost, God ordained that any man who would believe in Christ could be saved and any that denied Christ would be lost (John 8:24). By the way, the faith that God has in mind is always an obedient faith. This is the lesson of Hebrews 11 and James 2:14-26. Now please let me use Alexei's analogy to describe this subtle difference in the way Christians see predestination. By using our free-will we choose whether to be "in Christ" and thus saved (Gal. 3:26-27). So, we see God's part (His gracious plan of human redemption which is accomplished through the death of Christ), and man's part (faith in Christ, cf. Jas. 2:14-26; Matt. 7:21-23) combining to complete the equation of salvation (Eph. 2:8-9). Now I need to add there is a stream of Christianity that believes man has no free will, but the above description of the freewill/predestination doctrine, is the one accepted by the majority of believers I hope this helps our discussions peace to you both Carol [/quote] |
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