ArchivedDiscussion on Genesis 16:12 from CARM, please do read...En Hakkore
You're welcome. No biggie about half of it flying over your head, the same would hold true if you were to give me an in-depth analysis of a passage in the Qur'an and appealed to the original Arabic. In those ways the language is similar to Hebrew or Aramaic I could understand it, but a lot of it would be pretty foreign to me. I got two translations of the Qur'an with parallel Arabic text as well as an Arabic grammar with the intent of learning the language but nothing has ever become of it.
I had considered getting into that issue in my previous post but figured it had way too much information in it already. There are basically four translations of the clause out there, each with a bit of support in terms of numbers. With respect to the first you mentioned: "live to the east", this is footnoted in the NIV as a possible translation and is found in the actual translation of the NASB and NLV. There is another you cite but don't specifically mention: "over against all his brethren", which takes support from ESV and CEV. With respect to the second one you mentioned: "live among his brethren", this is supported by the KJV, YLT and DARBY. If I may start with the latter and work my way back. In my original post, my own word-for-word from the Hebrew was ...and against faces of his brothers he will live. Those translations suggesting Ishmael was 'to live among his brethren' adopt the connotation of 'upon' for the preposition על־ and the clause על־פני is thereby understood as a euphemism for 'being in the presence of'. This translation is problematic in two ways. Firstly, it fails to complete the poetic parallel and secondly, it isn't accurate since Ishmael did not live among his brethren but was sent away and wound up living in the Desert of Paran. That brings us to those translations that state the exact opposite, that he lived away or over against from his brethren. These translations take a rather rigid literal approach in line with my word-for-word translation (against faces of his brethren). While plausible grammatically and accurate in the fact he lived away from them, it also fails to complete the poetic parallel. Those translations that refer to Ishmael living 'to the east' are a variation of the previous translation, just that they cross the line into interpretation instead of sticking with translation. Based on an assumed location of Havilah east of where Abraham dwelt at the time (see Genesis 25:18), a portion of the lands Ishmael and his descendants occupied were situated away to the east, and thus they provide a complete non-literal translation. As with the previous two, this fails to complete the poetic parallel and while plausibly correct with respect to Havilah (Paran and Shur were actually south on the Sinai Peninsula), I am bothered that a 'translation' would depart so radically from its task - 'to the east' belongs in a commentary with documentation and a cross-reference to Genesis 25, not in a translation. Which brings us full circle to the euphemism of 'living in hostility toward his brothers' (lit. live against the faces of his brethren). This is both plausible and completes the poetic parallel perfectly with the previous two clauses of the verse. Agreed, no reason to get into any of that. I am also aware of such commentaries and made only brief mention of such interpretations of the passage in my previous post in order to clearly align myself against them. Not a whole lot, comparatively speaking. His early years are narrated in Genesis 16, 17 and 21. Brief mention is made of Ishmael's participation in burying his father in the cave of Machpelah near Mamre (see Genesis 25:7-10). His genealogy is presented in Genesis 25:13-17 and repeated in 1 Chronicles 1:28-31. There is also brief mention of Joseph's brothers selling him (Joseph) to Ishmaelites travelling to Egypt in Genesis 37. That's pretty much it... Kind regards, Jonathan |
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