1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Trinity Doctrine Flushed??

Trinity Debate
1 st Corinthians 8:5-6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. NAS

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1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Trinity Doctrine Flushed??

Postby webmaster » Wed May 31, 2006 05:31 am

KJV wrote: 20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.



LIV wrote: 20.
|3570| now
|1161| But
|5547| Christ
|1453| has been raised
|1537| from
|9999| {the}
|3498| dead,
|0536| firstfruit
|3588| of those
|2837| having fallen asleep.
21.
|1894| since
|1063| For
|1223| through
|0444| man
|9999| {is}
|2288| death,
|2532| and
|1223| through
|0444| a Man
|0386| a resurrection
|3498| of {the} dead.
22.
|5618| as
|1063| For
|1722| in
|0076| Adam
|3956| all
|0599| die,
|3779| so
|2532| also
|1722| in
|5547| Christ
|3956| all
|2227| will be made alive.
23.
|1538| each
|1161| But
|1722| in
|3588| the
|2398| own
|5001| order.
|0536| The firstfruit
|5547| Christ,
|1899| afterward
|3588| those
|5547| of Christ
|1722| in
|3588| the
|3952| coming
|0846| of him.
24.
|1534| Then
|3588| the
|5056| end
|3752| when
|3860| he(Jesus) delivers
|3588| the
|0932| kingdom
|3588| to
|2316| God,
|2532| even
|3962| the Father.
|3752| When
|2673| He(Jesus) abolishes
|3956| all
|0746| rule
|2532| and
|3956| all
|1849| authority
|2532| and
|1411| power.
25.
|1163| it is right
|1063| For
|0846| Him(Jesus)
|0935| to rule
|0891| until
|3756| -
|0302| -
|5087| He(Jesus) puts
|3956| all
|3588| the
|2190| enemies
|5259| under
|3588| the
|4228| feet
|0846| of him(Jesus)
26.
|9999| {the}
|2078| last
|2190| enemy
|2673| is abolished,
|2288| death.
27.
|3956| all things
|1063| For
|5293| He(God) subjected
|5259| under
|3588| the
|4228| feet
|0846| of Him(Jesus).
|3752| when
|1161| But
|2036| He(God) says
|3754| that
|3956| all things
|5293| have been subjected,
|9999| {it is}
|1212| plain
|3754| that
|1623| excepted
|3588| the
|9999| {One}
|5293| having subjected
|0846| to Him
|3956| all things.
28.
|3752| when
|1161| But
|5293| is subjected
|0846| to Him
|3956| all things,
|5119| then
|0848| Himself(Jesus),
|3588| the
|5207| Son(Jesus),
|5293| will be subjected
|3588| to the
|9999| {One}(God)
|5293| having subjected
|0846| to Him(Jesus)
|3956| all things,
|2443| that
|5600| may be
|3588| -
|2316| God
|3956| all things
|1722| in
|3956| all.



The Risen Man(Jesus Christ) who is sitting at the Right hand of the Father has been given all authority, judgment(John 6:27), and etc.
Everything has been placed under His feet in Heaven and on Earth(1 Corinthians 15:27).

And in the end when all things shall be subdued unto Him(Jesus), then shall the Son(Jesus) also himself(Jesus) be subject unto Him(Yahweh) that put all things under him(Jesus), that God(Elohim) may be all in all??????

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Postby webmaster » Wed Jun 21, 2006 01:55 am

Ok I asked this question in another forum and got no response so I moved it here. This topic is only about 1 Corinthians 15:24-28!

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Postby Aineo » Wed Jun 21, 2006 07:02 pm

1 Corinthians 15:23-28
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all. NAS
I will take a stab at this. After all things are subject to the Man, Jesus Christ (Acts 2:22, Romans 5:15, and etc.), He will deliver the Kingdom to God and be subjected to God so that God may be "all in all".
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Postby webmaster » Thu Jun 22, 2006 02:24 am

Greek Word |3956| all things Paul wrote:Number 3956
Transliteration:
pas {pas}
Word Origin:
including all the forms of declension
TDNT:
5:886,795
Part of Speech:
adjective
Usage in the KJV:
all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11, no 3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6, whosoever 3739 302 3, always 1223 3, daily 2250 2, any thing 2, no 3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26

Total: 1243
Definition:

1. individually
1. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2. collectively
1. some of all types


http://www.bju.edu/bible/strongs.php?lang=g&id=3956



Greek Word |1722| in Paul wrote:Transliteration:
en {en}
Word Origin:
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537)
TDNT:
2:537,233
Part of Speech:
prep
Usage in the KJV:
in 1874, by 141, with 134, among 117, at 112, on 46, through 37, misc 321

Total: 2782
Definition:

1. in, by, with etc. Wigram's frequency count is 2798 not 2782.

http://www.bju.edu/bible/strongs.php?lang=g&id=1722


Greek Word |3956| all Paul wrote:Transliteration:
pas {pas}
Word Origin:
including all the forms of declension
TDNT:
5:886,795
Part of Speech:
adjective
Usage in the KJV:
all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11, no 3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6, whosoever 3739 302 3, always 1223 3, daily 2250 2, any thing 2, no 3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26

Total: 1243
Definition:

1. individually
1. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2. collectively
1. some of all types

n

http://www.bju.edu/bible/strongs.php?lang=g&id=3956



For reference!

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Postby webmaster » Thu Jun 22, 2006 02:38 am

|3956| all things
|1722| in
|3956| all.
=
whole among all things

And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be whole among all things.


Makes sense!

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Postby Superman » Thu Jul 20, 2006 09:06 pm

It seems as if both the Administrators (webmaster and Aineo) who are Christians agree that Christ is not God. And as I understand by reading the posts in reference to Jesus is that, He is a created being who is mistakenly applied to by the vast majority of orthodox Christians as God. Is this correct?

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Postby Aineo » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:44 pm

Yes.
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Postby Superman » Fri Jul 21, 2006 04:49 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Postby Believer » Thu Jul 27, 2006 05:55 am

The Catholic NAB has an interesting footnote for I Cor 15:28

12 [27b-28] The one who subjected everything to him: the Father is the ultimate agent in the drama, and the final end of the process, to whom the Son and everything else is ordered (24.28). That God may be all in all: his reign is a dynamic exercise of creative power, an outpouring of life and energy through the universe, with no further resistance. This is the supremely positive meaning of "subjection": that God may fully be God.

Superman, The Bible plainly tells us that Jesus is a preexistent being, who is the "very imprint of the Father", and who "came to earth in human likeness". He is one in being with the Father, and through Him all things were made. Read Phillipians 2, and Hebrews 1.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2

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Postby Aineo » Thu Jul 27, 2006 01:37 pm

When you read Hebrews 1 make sure your read all verses in context and with understanding of the context and not through the lens of tradition. The same holds true for Philippians 2. Being in the image or form of God does not equate to having God's nature.
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Postby Superman » Thu Jul 27, 2006 02:31 pm

Believer wrote:Superman, The Bible plainly tells us that Jesus is a preexistent being, who is the "very imprint of the Father", and who "came to earth in human likeness". He is one in being with the Father, and through Him all things were made. Read Phillipians 2, and Hebrews 1.


An "imprint" doesn't make Him God, I can make a carbon copy of my birth certificate and it would essentially be an "imprint", however it is not the original, get it?

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Postby mike england » Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:01 pm

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. (1 John 5:20)

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Postby Aineo » Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:09 pm

So Mike, who is the true God?
John 17:1-3
17:1 These things Jesus spoke; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Thy Son, that the Son may glorify Thee, 2 even as Thou gavest Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom Thou hast given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. NAS
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Postby mike england » Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:08 am

Hi Aineo

It is Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal Life.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6 KJV

Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. KJV

Thanks
God Bless you all
Mike

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Postby webmaster » Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:43 am

Still no answers to debunk 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 ??

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Postby Aineo » Wed Aug 02, 2006 03:39 am

Mike, put vs. 20 in its full context and then tell me that John is telling us Jesus is the true God. Then you can explain why Jesus contradicts your interpretation of 1 John 5:20 in John 17:3 and why Paul disagrees in 1 Thessalonians 1:9 and Jeremiah disgrees in Jeremiah 10:10.

webmaster, I don't think anyone can debunk 1 Corinthians 15-:24-28 without appealing to some esoteric interpretation that denies the context of those verses.
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Postby Believer » Wed Aug 02, 2006 05:10 am

I highlighted it in bold, webmaster. It's an alternative interpretation to yours and Aineo's.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;

in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

-Hebrews 1:1-2

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Postby webmaster » Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:12 pm

Believer wrote:I highlighted it in bold, webmaster. It's an alternative interpretation to yours and Aineo's.


Alternative interpretation?????? Even a 6th grader could read and understand what the scripture says. It's only when we have been brainwashed by the preachers that alternative interpretations exist.

Did Christ raise himself from the dead or did the Father raise Christ from the dead?

For since death came by man, the resurrection of the dead also came by man.

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

For since death came by man, the resurrection of the dead also came by man.

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ's, at his coming.

Then the end comes, when he will deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he will have abolished all rule and all authority and power.

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

For, "He put all things in subjection under his feet." But when he says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him.

When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.

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Postby newseed » Wed Aug 02, 2006 02:58 pm

It's evidence to me that Christ will reign until all have been subdued under him and then Christ will subdue himself unto God, the Father.

Christ is the Son of the Father, God.
God has given the Son all authority.
Christ is King over all men.
Men submits to God through Christ.
Christ pays the penalty for men's sin.
Christ conquers death.
Christ submits to God for the sake of men who believes in him.

Trinity is unbiblical.

There is only one God and only through Jesus Christ can we obtain salvation.
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Psalm 118:8 "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
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John 14:7-9 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. From now on, you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you such a long time, and do you not know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. How do you say, 'Show us the Father?'

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Postby mike england » Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:02 pm

Greetings In the name of Lord Jesus Christ.

Let us Pray:


ok heres mine.

The Father is in Jesus Christ (the Son) and Jesus Christ is in the Father (John 10:38 ).

But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe,
that the Father is in me, and I in him.


1Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

1 Corinthians 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

God's attribute's are identical to the Son, God is "all in all" and so is the Son "all in all."

Amen

God Bless
Brother
Mike from England

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Postby Aineo » Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:21 pm

John 17:22-23

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. KJV
Does God give His glory to another?
Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. KJV
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Postby webmaster » Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:44 pm

Aineo wrote:Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. KJV


Isaiah 42
http://www.radioforjesus.com/test/?cmd= ... lename.pls

Mike actually try for the first time and listen to the words spoken in Isaiah 42! It's talking about a man, God's Servant and his name is Jesus Christ and agree's with 1 Corinthians 15:24-28!

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Postby Believer » Thu Aug 03, 2006 05:59 am

It is part of the natural order that the Son of God is subject to the will of the Father, The Godhead, and ultimately the Father. I do not percieve the passage from I Corinthians as denying Jesus is God. The Bible is full of support for a preexistent Jesus who is one in being with the Father, eternal and glorified in Godly glory. Webmaster's and Aineo and other's interpretations lack depth. This interpretation is shallow, superficial. God must be comprehesible to human beings, right? I don't think so. Jesus is only a human being? Scripture doesn't support this.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;

in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

-Hebrews 1:1-2

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Postby Aineo » Thu Aug 03, 2006 01:04 pm

Lets see, you say the Son is subject to the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) but is ultimately subject to the Father? Whose thinking lacks depth? Also Scripture states inequitably that Jesus is a man, it is those who think Jesus is God the Son who have to interpret Scripture to support his belief.

Now Believer, if your only tactic when you are backed into a corner is to resort to personal attacks your posts will be deleted.
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Postby Superman » Thu Aug 03, 2006 04:27 pm

Aineo, I have a question, who is the "we" that believes that God exists in three persons? I have ruled out you and the webmaster, and can't seem to figure out who believes this?

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=4024

Sincerely,
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Postby Aineo » Thu Aug 03, 2006 04:41 pm

The "we" in the Statement of Faith are Trinitarians. Now, if you will take the time to check out this forum you will see that the webmaster has been seeking input from members since 2004 so we can update our Statement of Faith: http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewforum.php?f=148

Now, I cannot speak for the webmaster but in 2004 I was a Trinitarian. I changed my position last year by putting Scripture in context and researching the Hebraic roots of Christianity so I could understand the cultural idioms used in the NT. The Unitarian position (not to be confused with Universalist Unitarianism) is the Hebraic foundation of Christianity. When we study Peter's, Paul's, John's, and James' recorded words and their epistles they are clear there is but one true God the Father.
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Postby Superman » Thu Aug 03, 2006 04:49 pm

Whether believing Christ is God or not, does this change ones eternal destiny of those who are in the Christian faith? And don't mean to go off-topic, but how do Christians know how Jesus really looked like? The member Believer has a picture of Jesus, is this how he looked like?

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Postby Aineo » Thu Aug 03, 2006 05:30 pm

A Christians eternal destiny is based on his relationship with God the Father and Jesus Christ, not on a belief in the Trinity, which is a doctrine developed in the 4th century.

As to Jesus' physical appearance the only Scripture that gives us a hint about this is Isaiah 53.
Isaiah 53:1-3
Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face,
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
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Jesus' ancestry was semitic not caucasian, therefore He probably had an olive complexion and black hair, picture a modern man of Arabic descent. Also He would not have had shoulder length hair.
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Postby Believer » Thu Aug 03, 2006 09:19 pm

Aineo wrote:Lets see, you say the Son is subject to the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) but is ultimately subject to the Father? Whose thinking lacks depth? Also Scripture states inequitably that Jesus is a man, it is those who think Jesus is God the Son who have to interpret Scripture to support his belief.

Now Believer, if your only tactic when you are backed into a corner is to resort to personal attacks your posts will be deleted.


Was Jesus always a man? Are you sure about that? Scripture doesn't support that. Where have I attacked you? So we mutually question each other's beliefs.

The "we" in the Statement of Faith are Trinitarians. Now, if you will take the time to check out this forum you will see that the webmaster has been seeking input from members since 2004 so we can update our Statement of Faith: http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewforum.php?f=148

Now, I cannot speak for the webmaster but in 2004 I was a Trinitarian. I changed my position last year by putting Scripture in context and researching the Hebraic roots of Christianity so I could understand the cultural idioms used in the NT. The Unitarian position (not to be confused with Universalist Unitarianism) is the Hebraic foundation of Christianity. When we study Peter's, Paul's, John's, and James' recorded words and their epistles they are clear there is but one true God the Father.


I've read accounts of Christians converting to Islam and stuff. Were these people ever really Christians? Was Aineo a Trinitarian like me? No, or he'd still believe. Aineo shows me his arguments, but I remain unconvinced.

Whether believing Christ is God or not, does this change ones eternal destiny of those who are in the Christian faith? And don't mean to go off-topic, but how do Christians know how Jesus really looked like? The member Believer has a picture of Jesus, is this how he looked like?


Basically, Superman, you either know God or don't. If one is a Unitarian and dies and Jesus is really part of the Trinity, then that person doesn't really know who Jesus is. I believe Jesus is merciful and may give that person a last-minute chance to know Him.

John 8:24
For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."


It's very serious if one denies the full nature of Christ.

Doesn't it seem odd to you that if these two guys are right, that the majority of Christians are very lost misguided people? Would God let His Church fall like that? This is an issue of Faith, this argument about the Trinity, Jesus's divine nature, and preexistence, in addition to understanding Scripture.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;

in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

-Hebrews 1:1-2

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Postby Aineo » Thu Aug 03, 2006 09:53 pm

You are always the arrogant Catholic who refuses to look beyond traditions. It does not take a rocket scientist to understand the Hebraic foundations of Christianity is Unitarian to its core.

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!
NAS

Deuteronomy 32:39
'See now that I, I am He,
And there is no god besides Me;
It is I who put to death and give life.
I have wounded, and it is I who heal;
And there is no one who can deliver from My hand. NAS

2 Chronicles 15:3 And for many days Israel was without the true God and without a teaching priest and without law. NAS

Other than Thomas' statement in John 20:28, which was spoken in Aramaic and not Greek and since the nuances of Aramaic cannot be translated into Greek it takes a leap of logic to maintain Thomas believed Jesus is God.

As to how attacked us, your choice of adjectives is a violation of our Forum Rules. You have been repeatedly warned in the past for your attitude and if you want to continue to post on this message board keep the personal attacks to yourself. Questioning any ones salvation is a gross violation of this forums rules. As to those Christians who convert to Islam unless you accept Calvin's OSAS, which I know Catholicism rejects your observation is nothing more than an attempt to obfuscate truth and belittle those who disagree with you.

Jesus was always a man, which is clear in every Messianic prophecy as well as how Peter and Paul wrote about the Man, Jesus Christ. If they believed that Jesus was God they would have said so in the same plain language as they said and wrote that He is a man. You see Believer if Jesus was a human being for only the 33+ years of His earthly ministry then it is misleading even deceptive to refer to the risen Lord as a Man who God highly exalted as both Prince and Savior, appointed His heir and etc. If Jesus emptied Himself of His divine prerogatives while on earth then His human body is no longer needed if He is in fact God.

Jesus said:
John 4:21-24
21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you worship the Father. 22 "You worship that which you do not know; we worship that which we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
NAS

Who is the God of the OT? Yehovah is His name.

Isaiah 42:8
8 "I am the LORD, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images.
NAS

However Jesus gave His glory that He had with the Father to others.

John 17:22-23
22 "And the glory which Thou hast given Me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me. NAS

How is Yehovah to be addressed?

Jeremiah 3:19
And I said, 'You shall call Me, My Father,
And not turn away from following Me.' NAS

The Trinity as well as the preexistence of Jesus Christ is a manmade doctrine that is totally defeated when every word that proceeds from the mouth of God is included in any discussion of the Trinity.
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Postby Believer » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:10 pm

You are always the arrogant Catholic who refuses to look beyond traditions. It does not take a rocket scientist to understand the Hebraic foundations of Christianity is Unitarian to its core.


I just shared an opinion. Anyways, Hebrew Christians are Trinitarian and believe Jesus is preexistent. Your movement occured over a thousand and a half years after Jesus died. Even the Arians and Gnostics and Monophysites believed Jesus was preexistent, which is indeed supported in scripture. This belief is important because it shows that Jesus is more than an man.
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Postby Aineo » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:18 pm

More opinions since you have yet to demonstrate that the apostles taught the preexistence of the Son. In fact Peter's Acts 2 sermon shows that Peter did not teach any concept close to the Trinity. Now unless you can post a Scripture that reads Jesus is God other than Thomas' statement in John 20 that does not require avoiding the plan language meaning of words and appealing to Greek philosophy I will take God's truth over the opinions of men any day of the week.

Scripture is clear there is but one true God, the Father.
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Postby Superman » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:27 pm

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is ONE.

Sure doesn't sound like 3 Gods to me! :lol:

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Postby On My Way » Sat Aug 05, 2006 01:32 am

Believer wrote:Doesn't it seem odd to you that if these two guys are right, that the majority of Christians are very lost misguided people? Would God let His Church fall like that? This is an issue of Faith, this argument about the Trinity, Jesus's divine nature, and preexistence, in addition to understanding Scripture.


Just to point out something here

For your theory to be true then God would have set the Jews straight wouldn't he?

Or am I reading your post wrong?
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Postby newseed » Sat Aug 05, 2006 03:05 pm

Believer wrote:Doesn't it seem odd to you that if these two guys are right, that the majority of Christians are very lost misguided people? Would God let His Church fall like that? This is an issue of Faith, this argument about the Trinity, Jesus's divine nature, and preexistence, in addition to understanding Scripture.

Matthew 7
13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it
.


I wouldn't be surprised that if only 1/20th of the world's population make it through that narrow gate.
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Psalm 118:8 "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."

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John 14:7-9 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. From now on, you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you such a long time, and do you not know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. How do you say, 'Show us the Father?'

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Postby Aineo » Sat Aug 05, 2006 04:06 pm

"Many are called, but few are chosen" is one warning Jesus gave that is totally ignored by those with an agenda that conflicts with and contradicts God's will.
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Postby Believer » Sat Aug 05, 2006 07:20 pm

Superman wrote:Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is ONE.

Sure doesn't sound like 3 Gods to me!

Sincerely,
Superman


Obviously some of you don't even understand the Trinity. It's like, how can you say something is wrong if you don't understand it? I believe in one God. The Bible tells us Jesus is a preexistent being. Is Jesus only am an if He preexists men and if all was created through Him? Do you really think I would defend so strongly beliefs that are so wrong?

Revelations 2:8
To the angel of the church in Smyrna, write this: " 'The first and the last, who once died but came to life, says this:


Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, like the Father. Is Jesus really just a man? Are you sure He isn't a preexistent glorified being that is one with God? With verses like this and many others, seems evident to me.
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Postby Aineo » Sat Aug 05, 2006 07:55 pm

It seems Believer, that your interpretations of various Scriptures are far more important to you than God's own words. Since Yehovah tells He is one, the Father, the only true God, that He anointed Jesus as the Messiah, appointed Jesus the Judge, appointed Jesus as our High Priest and His heir that you would believe God instead of men who were created by God.
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Postby Aineo » Sat Aug 05, 2006 08:12 pm

Also, it is not difficult to understand the concept of the Trinity, however just because people believe this doctrine does not make this doctrine true. Jesus said:
John 17: 17 "Sanctify them in the truth; Thy word is truth. NAS
He did not say sanctify them in tradition, tradition is true.
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Postby Believer » Sun Aug 06, 2006 07:45 am

Aineo wrote:It seems Believer, that your interpretations of various Scriptures are far more important to you than God's own words. Since Yehovah tells He is one, the Father, the only true God, that He anointed Jesus as the Messiah, appointed Jesus the Judge, appointed Jesus as our High Priest and His heir that you would believe God instead of men who were created by God.



You mean Jesus the man. But Jesus wasn't always a human, He quite literally came down from Heaven to fulfill this predestined plan and return in glory. Jesus returns to Heaven. The Bible just doesn't support the preexistence of Christ as a mere thought or concept in the Father's mind.
Even Paul believes that Jesus was there when all was created in the beginning.

Colossians 1:16-20
16 For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18 He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he himself might be preeminent.
19 For in him all the fullness was pleased to dwell,
20 and through him to reconcile all things for him, making peace by the blood of his cross (through him), whether those on earth or those in heaven.


The truth is, Jesus as the Son is a preexistent being. He was before Adam, quite literally. Jesus is not in His nature only human. He cannot be. There is much more to Jesus. You've got to believe that.
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Postby Aineo » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:49 pm

You are great at telling me what I believe and mean and taking Scripture out of context. Why did you start with vs. 16? Is it because vs. 15 weakens your argument and when we understand vs. 15 this Trinity proof no longer proves the Trinity?

Colossians 1:15

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: KJV

In this verse the Greek translated "firstborn" is "proototokos", which indicates preeminence not preexistence. In the Septuagint Ephraim is referred to the Joseph's "proototokos" although Manasseh was Joseph's "firstborn". Jesus was greater than Adam in God predeterminded plan, Jesus did not exist before Adam. Also we have already covered the meaning of "descended from above" and "descended from heaven" on the thread you started.

There is no Scripture in either the OT or the NT that plainly states that Jesus preexisted as a divine entity and a mass of Scriptures that tell us Jesus was and still is a Man. The only way you can view Jesus as preexisting is to intepret various Scriptures to teach this and appeal to tradition. Now, even if you can establish Jesus' spirit existed in the beginning Colosssians 1:15 can be interpreted to mean His spirit was born, which defeats that Jesus is God since God was not born.

When we take the time to study the meaning of Koine Greeks words and the idioms used by the Hebrews your proof texts are exposed as interpretations that contradict God's truth.
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Postby Believer » Sun Aug 06, 2006 08:24 pm

You are great at telling me what I believe and mean and taking Scripture out of context. Why did you start with vs. 16? Is it because vs. 15 weakens your argument and when we understand vs. 15 this Trinity proof no longer proves the Trinity?

Colossians 1:15

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: KJV

In this verse the Greek translated "firstborn" is "proototokos", which indicates preeminence not preexistence. In the Septuagint Ephraim is referred to the Joseph's "proototokos" although Manasseh was Joseph's "firstborn". Jesus was greater than Adam in God predeterminded plan, Jesus did not exist before Adam. Also we have already covered the meaning of "descended from above" and "descended from heaven" on the thread you started.

There is no Scripture in either the OT or the NT that plainly states that Jesus preexisted as a divine entity and a mass of Scriptures that tell us Jesus was and still is a Man. The only way you can view Jesus as preexisting is to intepret various Scriptures to teach this and appeal to tradition. Now, even if you can establish Jesus' spirit existed in the beginning Colosssians 1:15 can be interpreted to mean His spirit was born, which defeats that Jesus is God since God was not born.

When we take the time to study the meaning of Koine Greeks words and the idioms used by the Hebrews your proof texts are exposed as interpretations that contradict God's truth.


The Greeks of this period believed Jesus was preexistent, because, Aineo, it is supported in scripture. Almost every single Christian group, even heresies, maintain that belief. Jesus is God as a Son of Man, so is the image of the invisible God. That's a much straightforward interpretation.

Verse 15 correlates with verse 18, stating that Jesus was the firstborn from the dead that He may again be preeminent, and return to His place of Godly Glory. Jesus was preeminent in the Beginning when He created all things.

What can you say about verses 16 and 17? Quite another story, right? This appears to be about Jesus's preexistence rather than preeminence.

The Transfiguration is another example of Jesus transforming into a state of His preexistent Glory.
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Postby Aineo » Sun Aug 06, 2006 09:19 pm

The Greeks of what period, the 1st century or the 4th century? Also since the foundation of Christianity is the apostles and the prophets who were Hebrews not Greeks appealing to how Greeks interpreted the Hebrew Scriptures is a logical fallacy since each culture had diametrically opposite philosophies. It is also a logical fallacy to appeal to a majority opinion. Also once again you are trying to obfuscate historical truth since the early heresies included those who denied Jesus came in the flesh and was an emanation from God, those who believed Jesus was a created being, those who believed God is 2 not 3, and etc.

The Scriptures do not teach the preexistence of Jesus, men have interpreted various Scriptures in order to justify a man-made doctrine. Peter, John, and Paul agree with each other and the OT prophesies that tell us Jesus is God's anointed one who was born of a woman, God's Servant, God's chosen King, and etc.

Now since you want to see a correlation between vs. 15 and vs. 18 lets look at the Greek. In both verses the Greek translated first-born is proototokos. As the first-born from the dead Jesus has preeminence in God's kingdom. This preeminence was part of God's predetermined plan. So, maybe that is why you wanted to ignore verse 15 since verse 18 explain verse 15.
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Postby Pastor » Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:20 pm

Aineo,

I have but one question for you:

John 1:3 - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

παντα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδε εν ο γεγονεν

This particular verse tells us that "without Him" (horis autou), preposition with the ablative case which translates as "apart from Him," was not any thing made that was made. Since the word "Him" clearly refers to a person and not an idea or a predetermined plan existing in the mind of God, how can "Him" Christ be a creation? Furthermore, Christ "Him" cannot be a creation since all that was "made" (creation) was made "apart" from Him, thus excluding Him as part of creation. How do you explain this?

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Postby Aineo » Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:10 pm

Okay, now we have to understand, not intepret how John as well as 1st century Greeks and Jews understood the concept of "logos" or "memra". If you take the time to research how Jews understood "memra" you will find that Heraclitius, the Greek philosopher who used "logos" to designate "the divine reason or plan that coordinates a changing universe" agree. Therefore as Peter preached in Acts 2 the Man Jesus is God's predetermined plan for the salvation of men. Also in order to interpret John 1:1-18 to show the preexistence of the Son as God you have to ignore the fact Jesus did not say He is God, He was clear He is the Son of God as foretold in the prophets. You also have to ignore that in John 17 while praying to the Father, He prayed:
John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. NAS
Paul wrote in 1 Corithians:
1 st Corinthians 8:4-6
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. NAS
Peter, John, and Paul were not Trinitarians or they would have expressed the Trinity in language just as they maintained there is but one God the Father. Now either Peter, John, and Paul lied or men have interpreted various Scriptures ripped out of Biblical context as well as the cultural context that gave us the Scriptures or men are promoting a false doctrine based on tradition.

Study the First Council of Nicea and you will learn the bishops who developed the doctrine of the Trinity could not find Biblical language to define Jesus is God, which is why they came up with the hypostatic union. However, it is not difficult to find Biblical language that defeats the Trinity:
Deuteronomy 6:4-5

4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! 5 "And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. NAS
"Yehovah is our God, Yehovah is one", not three.
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Postby Pastor » Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:16 pm

Aineo,

Would you concede that John had written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and not under the inspiration of Greek Philosophy?

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Postby Aineo » Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:28 pm

Yes, now if you concede the same concerning not only John but Moses and Paul then you have a problem don't you since Moses and Paul are not the least bit ambiguous concerning there is but one God, the Father and neither is Jesus in John 5:44.
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Postby Believer » Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:26 pm

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!
:wink:

Aineo wrote:The Greeks of what period, the 1st century or the 4th century? Also since the foundation of Christianity is the apostles and the prophets who were Hebrews not Greeks appealing to how Greeks interpreted the Hebrew Scriptures is a logical fallacy since each culture had diametrically opposite philosophies. It is also a logical fallacy to appeal to a majority opinion. Also once again you are trying to obfuscate historical truth since the early heresies included those who denied Jesus came in the flesh and was an emanation from God, those who believed Jesus was a created being, those who believed God is 2 not 3, and etc.


Koine Greek was spoken in both centuries, and Hellenistic thought predated both by many centuries. Just because people are Greek, that doesn't mean that they are these abstract philosophers.

The Scriptures do not teach the preexistence of Jesus, men have interpreted various Scriptures in order to justify a man-made doctrine. Peter, John, and Paul agree with each other and the OT prophesies that tell us Jesus is God's anointed one who was born of a woman, God's Servant, God's chosen King, and etc.

Now since you want to see a correlation between vs. 15 and vs. 18 lets look at the Greek. In both verses the Greek translated first-born is proototokos. As the first-born from the dead Jesus has preeminence in God's kingdom. This preeminence was part of God's predetermined plan. So, maybe that is why you wanted to ignore verse 15 since verse 18 explain verse 15.


Jesus can be preeminent and preexistent, why should both be in conflict? That word is even used in verse 18. What about the other verses, Aineo?

Paul stated that Jesus was before all things, and in Him all things were made. Paul recognizes Jesus's preexistence.

The Nicaean Creed was an attempt to put the pieces together that are given in the Bible to form the overall picture of who the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are and describe them and their importance and relationship. It's a summary, basically.
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Postby Aineo » Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:15 pm

You know Believer you have pounded on a few Scriptures to try to prove that Jesus is God and have steadfastly avoided all the Scriptures that tell us there is but one God the Father, which is typical of all Trinitarians but does not address all the Scriptures that contradict the Trinity.

Now, I have explained all your proof texts Biblically, culturally, and linguistically and your only defense is to either ignore them or deny them. Your defense lacks substance when you cannot refute what the prophets, Peter, John, and Paul wrote in plain languaged and what they wrote is there is only one wise God the Father and Jesus is His predetermined plan for the salvation of those who by believe Him by faith.
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Postby webmaster » Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:16 am

Believer wrote:Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!
:wink:


Proverbs 30:4 is asking a question! What is the question?
What is his name:
God

and the name of his son?
Jesus


BTW God has come down to earth many times before Jesus ws born.

How does this make Jesus God in the first place to even use the verse in Proverbs 30:4?


Read the words after it...

Proverbs 30:5 "Every word of God is flawless. He is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Proverbs 30:6 Don't you add to his words, Lest he reprove you, and you be found a liar.

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Postby webmaster » Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:39 am

Pastor wrote:Aineo,

Would you concede that John had written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and not under the inspiration of Greek Philosophy?

Blessings


John was written under VERY DIRECT inspiration of the Holy Spirit something not found in the OT. The OT is open to interpretation by the HS and can't be understood without the HS but the NT isn't even in the same ball park. The words used in writing the NT is a very important key to it's understanding. Since the 2nd to the 4th century people are trying to copy with a Fake spirit what Jesus and the Apostles wrote with the REAL SPIRIT and re-interpret the NT with their own human spirit into something they want the NT to say. There are numerous cults that copy this scriptural personal interpretation!

2 Peter 3 very directly explains the problem people has with understanding Paul's letters. They twist Pauls's letters the same way as they twist the OT around incorrectly. Peter quotes Paul who calls them ignorant and unsettled!




Every place in the NT where the word scripture is used refers to the OT.

Matthew 21
42 Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner. This was from the Lord. It is marvelous in our eyes?'

Matthew 22
29 But Jesus answered them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God.

Matthew 26
54 How then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that it must be so?"

56 But all this has happened, that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled." Then all the disciples left him, and fled.

Mark 12
10 Haven't you even read this Scripture: 'The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner.

24 Jesus answered them, "Isn't this because you are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God?

Mark 14
49 I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and you didn't arrest me. But this is so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled."

Mark 15
28 The Scripture was fulfilled, which says, "He was numbered with transgressors."

Luke 4
21 He began to tell them, "Today, this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."

Luke 24
27 Beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he explained to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

32 They said one to another, "Weren't our hearts burning within us, while he spoke to us along the way, and while he opened the Scriptures to us?"

45 Then he opened their minds, that they might understand the Scriptures.

John 2
22 When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he said this, and they believed the Scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

John 5
39 "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify about me.

John 7
38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water."

42 Hasn't the Scripture said that the Christ comes of the seed of David, and from Bethlehem, the village where David was?"

John 10
35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture can't be broken),

John 13
18 I don't speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen. But that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with me has lifted up his heel against me.'

John 17
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name. Those whom you have given me I have kept. None of them is lost, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

John 19
24 Then they said to one another, "Let's not tear it, but cast lots for it to decide whose it will be," that the Scripture might be fulfilled, which says, "They parted my garments among them. For my cloak they cast lots." Therefore the soldiers did these things.

28 After this, Jesus, seeing that all things were now finished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, "I am thirsty."

36 For these things happened, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, "A bone of him will not be broken."

37 Again another Scripture says, "They will look on him whom they pierced."

John 20
9 For as yet they didn't know the Scripture, that he must rise from the dead.

Acts 1
16 "Brothers, it was necessary that this Scripture should be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was guide to those who took Jesus.

Acts 8
32 Now the passage of the Scripture which he was reading was this, "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter. As a lamb before his shearer is silent, So he doesn't open his mouth.

35 Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture, preached to him Jesus.

Acts 17
2 Paul, as was his custom, went in to them, and for three Sabbath days reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Acts 18
24 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by race, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus. He was mighty in the Scriptures.

28 for he powerfully refuted the Jews, publicly showing by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Romans 1
2 which he promised before through his prophets in the holy Scriptures,

Romans 4
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

Romans 9
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I caused you to be raised up, that I might show in you my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth."

Romans 10
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed."

Romans 11
2 God didn't reject his people, which he foreknew. Or don't you know what the Scripture says about Elijah? How he pleads with God against Israel:

Romans 14
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because it isn't of faith; and whatever is not of faith is sin. [ (Romans 14:24) Now to him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret through long ages, ] [ (Romans 14:25) but now is revealed, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known for obedience of faith to all the nations; ] [ (Romans 14:26) to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever! Amen. ]

Romans 15
4 For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that through patience and through encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

1 Corinthians 15
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Galatians 3
8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you all the nations will be blessed."

22 But the Scriptures shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Galatians 4
30 However what does the Scripture say? "Throw out the handmaid and her son, for the son of the handmaid will not inherit with the son of the free woman."

1 Timothy 5
18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle the ox when it treads out the grain." And, "The laborer is worthy of his wages."

James 2
8 However, if you fulfill the royal law, according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well.

23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness;" and he was called the friend of God.

James 4
5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who lives in us yearns jealously"?

1 Peter 2
6 Because it is contained in Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion a chief cornerstone, chosen, and precious: He who believes in him will not be disappointed."

2 Peter 1
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation.

2 Peter 3
16 as also in all of his letters, speaking in them of these things. In those are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do to the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
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Postby webmaster » Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:42 am

BTW the title of this topic is

1 Corinthians 15:24-28

Still waiting guys! It doesn't even matter if Jesus was preexistent because 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 sets the Heavenly order of Heaven and Jesus's place of order in it!

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Postby Believer » Tue Aug 08, 2006 03:26 am

Aineo wrote:You know Believer you have pounded on a few Scriptures to try to prove that Jesus is God and have steadfastly avoided all the Scriptures that tell us there is but one God the Father, which is typical of all Trinitarians but does not address all the Scriptures that contradict the Trinity.

Now, I have explained all your proof texts Biblically, culturally, and linguistically and your only defense is to either ignore them or deny them. Your defense lacks substance when you cannot refute what the prophets, Peter, John, and Paul wrote in plain languaged and what they wrote is there is only one wise God the Father and Jesus is His predetermined plan for the salvation of those who by believe Him by faith.


That isn't true, you've asked me questions and I've answered them.
My defense lacks substance? Jesus is before all things, and in him all creatures and things were made. Jesus's preexistence shouldn't even be an issue. Jesus had a human and divine nature, His divine nature wasn't human, and He was higher than the angels. He has a very intimate relationship with the Father. He proceeded from the Father and shares in being with Him.

I Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. NAS


As one can see, the Son completes the Father. The Son cannot be without the Father. The Father cannot be without the Son.


webmaster wrote:BTW the title of this topic is

1 Corinthians 15:24-28

Still waiting guys! It doesn't even matter if Jesus was preexistent because 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 sets the Heavenly order of Heaven and Jesus's place of order in it!


I Corinthians 15:24-28
24 then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death,
27 for "he subjected everything under his feet." But when it says that everything has been subjected, it is clear that it excludes the one who subjected everything to him.
28 When everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will (also) be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.


The Son completes the Father who is the Godhead, the "Most" High, and this subjection is to be displayed so all know that the Father willed everything and all went according to His plan. The Son does nothing on His own accord, or God is disunited. This does not show that Jesus is not one in being with the Father. Of course, some disagree with this. That's why it's important to understand all of who Jesus is. Issues like preexistence and nature are important.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;

in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

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Postby webmaster » Tue Aug 08, 2006 03:37 am

Believer wrote:
webmaster wrote:BTW the title of this topic is

1 Corinthians 15:24-28

Still waiting guys! It doesn't even matter if Jesus was preexistent because 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 sets the Heavenly order of Heaven and Jesus's place of order in it!


I Corinthians 15:24-28
24 then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death,
27 for "he subjected everything under his feet." But when it says that everything has been subjected, it is clear that it excludes the one who subjected everything to him.
28 When everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will (also) be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.


So where is the greek words at explaning I Corinthians 15:24-28? Everybody uses them all the time but this topic? I started this topic off with that concept and everybody runs from it?
All I have seen is people changing topics without discussing the meat of I Corinthians 15:24-28!

All I have seen so far was a catholic interpretation of it. Honestly where is the meat? Since we all honestly know that the KJV is a joke in deciding this matter!

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Postby Aineo » Tue Aug 08, 2006 03:45 am

Since the webmaster has requested this thread stay on topic my only response to you believer is this. You have not addressed those Scriptures that plainly state, Yehovah is God, Yehovah is the Father, and Yehovah is the only true God. This leaves no room to interpret the Father who is God is incomplete without the Son He created.

Now, how does God subject Himself to Himself? God is subject to no person before or since creation.
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Postby Superman » Tue Aug 08, 2006 02:08 pm

I have a few questions of my own.

If Jesus is God, how then can he be "subject" to Himself?

Don't know too much about the bible, but I do know that it always refers to Jesus as the "Son [of] God" and never God. If the Son was God then why not call Him God? If Jesus who is called the Son of God is in fact God, then why not call the Father, the "Father [of] God" like the Son is called the Son of God, if their both God? Does anyone see my point! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sincerely,
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Postby Aineo » Tue Aug 08, 2006 02:23 pm

The Son of God is subjected to the Father just as the sons of God are subject to the Father. What Scripture does not tell us is God the Son is subjected to God the Father.
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Postby Believer » Wed Aug 09, 2006 04:14 am

Post edited out for being off topic. From this point forward all off topic posts will be deleted. If you want to discuss something other than the thread topic start another thread.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;

in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

-Hebrews 1:1-2

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Postby Aineo » Wed Aug 09, 2006 04:27 am

All posts that do not address the thread topic will be deleted. If you want to discuss something other than 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 start another thread.
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Postby Donny Cage » Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:56 pm

Wow, this looks like a topic I could get into. I'm new with this forum, but not new with this debate....

This is an excellent scripture to debunk trinitarianism. Since trinitarianism holds the position that "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" are co-equal, co-eternal, ect...

However this scripture in no way debunks the Biblical position of the deity of Jesus. It's simply revealing the fulfillment of the purpose and role of the "Sonship". We knew the fulfillment of this position, would be a moment in time, when God said, "Sit at My right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool". (Psalm 110:1)

"UNTIL" signifies a moment in time.


1 Cor 15: 24. "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

Ephesians 5:27 sheds more light on the subject "That he [Christ] might present it to HIMSELF a glorious church…"

When we understand the very clear and very obvious biblical position that as a Man, Jesus has a dual nature, scriptures such as this, don't pose any problem or cause any contradiction to the biblical doctrine of the deity of Jesus.
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Postby Aineo » Thu Aug 17, 2006 01:46 pm

Donny Cage, since you reject the Trinity but seem to believe in the deity of Jesus may I presume you are a Jesus only oneness advocate? If you are then your position is just as easily debunked as the deity of Jesus.

However, this thread deals with 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, which tells us Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God, the Father who subjected all rule and authority to Jesus until all is complete when the Son will then also be subjected to the Father. Since God is one how does the one God subject Himself to Himself?
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Postby Donny Cage » Thu Aug 17, 2006 02:57 pm

Aineo wrote:Donny Cage, since you reject the Trinity but seem to believe in the deity of Jesus may I presume you are a Jesus only oneness advocate? If you are then your position is just as easily debunked as the deity of Jesus.

However, this thread deals with 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, which tells us Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God, the Father who subjected all rule and authority to Jesus until all is complete when the Son will then also be subjected to the Father. Since God is one how does the one God subject Himself to Himself?


The Human Being that God used to shed blood, forgive sin, and fulfill "Sit at My right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool". (Psalm 110:1). Will subject Himself to the deity "That God may be all in all"

I don't want to get off topic, as I understand you will delete messages... But just to barely touch base real quick, there is a purpose for the Sonship, and there will come a time when this purpose is fulfilled. What is the purpose you ask? As I said, the shedding of blood, "God purchased the church with His own blood" God is invisible, and He is Spirit. Spirit can't bleed, so He created a Physical Body. This is also needed because it is written, " For this reason he is mediator of a new covenant: since a death has taken place for deliverance from transgressions under the first covenant, those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance. Now where there is a will, the death of the testator must be established. For a will takes effect only at death; it has no force while the testator is alive. Thus not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. "

1 Corinthians in no way takes away from the deity of Jesus. It's simply showing the fulfillment of the purpose and role of the "Son of God".

Revelation paints a beautiful picture of what happens after, And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: Notice the Throne of God AND of the Lamb, yet he uses the singular "Him" not "them". The fulfillment of the Son of God may be complete, but there is no reason to believe that God's express image will be done away with.. as we see that God will "physically" be with us, "God himself shall be with them, and be their God"

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Postby Aineo » Thu Aug 17, 2006 03:51 pm

I delete posts when the poster refuses to stay on topic. I also split posts off one thread so that thread topics are not obfuscated by those who try refocus a discussion.

Now lets put your Revelation verse in context.
Revelation 22:2-5
3 And there shall no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His bond-servants shall serve Him; 4 and they shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 And there shall no longer be any night; and they shall not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God shall illumine them; and they shall reign forever and ever. NAS

Revelation 22:3-5

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. KJV
Verse 5 defeats your interpretation of verse 3 since they not He shall reign for ever and ever. Who are the "they"? God and the Lamb, who was slain. Now if God is a triune God then where is the Holy Spirit and His throne? If God is one yet three how can the one be a they?

We can use human history to explain how one king can have a throne yet be subjected to another king. Alexander the Great conquered and became the king of many nations. Alexander appointed kings to rule as his agent. Roman emperors were kings who appointed men who held the title of king to govern provinces. Herod the Great is an example of this historical truth as are Artexerxes and Nebuchadnezzer. Both of these kings ruled empires where kings were appointed to govern parts of their empires.
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Postby Donny Cage » Thu Aug 17, 2006 04:04 pm

Revelation 22:3-5

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. KJV Verse 5 defeats your interpretation of verse 3 since they not He shall reign for ever and ever. Who are the "they"? God and the Lamb, who was slain. Now if God is a triune God then where is the Holy Spirit and His throne? If God is one yet three how can the one be a they?


Actually just from the plain reading of the verse, we see who the "they" are. "And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."

So no, this verse does not in any way undermine or contradict the previous text. As it was plainly written, " And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him

The throne is singular, and "him" is also singular.

BTW, I never once said that God is triune. That's not a biblical concept....

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Postby Aineo » Thu Aug 17, 2006 04:20 pm

So your interpretation is that those who are with God are the "they" who will reign with God on God's throne? You are verging on animism. Now, since this thread does not deal with the duality of God but is to show that God is one and that Jesus is subject to God you need to start a thread in the Apologetic Forum to discuss your theology. And I will delete any post from this point forward that is off topic.
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Postby Donny Cage » Thu Aug 17, 2006 04:47 pm

Post edited out for being off topic and as you were warned.

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Postby Aineo » Thu Aug 17, 2006 04:59 pm

Your next post that ignores our Forum Rules will be deleted. Now, you have been warned on more than one thread that your theology needs to be discussed in the Apologetics Forum not in a Forum dedicated to discussing the Trinity. This forum was created for one purpose and your attempts to take threads of topic will not be tolerated.
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Wed May 02, 2007 11:03 am

Okay Aieno I am here to show you that I am not trying to aviod anything, let alone the Trinity forum.

Aieno Wrote:
John 17:22-23

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. KJV

Does God give His glory to another?

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. KJV


You posted this on Wed Aug 02, 2006. I am going to answer this by simple changing the way you highlighted it.

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one" John 17:22

Now I will ask you the same question, does God give His glory to another? Please keep in mind Isaiah 42:8 that you used to support your positon.

"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images". Isaiah 42:8

It seems like you have dug your own grave, however I am sure that you will find a way to wiggle out of it, as you usually do.

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Postby Aineo » Wed May 02, 2007 12:10 pm

John 17:22 does not tell us that God gave Jesus His glory. In Scripture glory is not limited to God:
Proverbs 14:28
28 In a multitude of people is a king's glory,
But in the dearth of people is a prince's ruin.
NAS

Proverbs 17:6
6 Grandchildren are the crown of old men,
And the glory of sons is their fathers.
NAS

Proverbs 20:29
29 The glory of young men is their strength,
And the honor of old men is their gray hair.
NAS

Proverbs 28:12
12 When the righteous triumph, there is great glory,
But when the wicked rise, men hide themselves.
NAS

Daniel 7:14
14 "And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom
,
That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
NAS


Hebrews 2:7-8
7 "Thou hast made him for a little while lower than the angels;
Thou hast crowned him with glory and honor,
And hast appointed him over the works of Thy hands;
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet.
NAS
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Wed May 02, 2007 01:09 pm

Aieno Wrote:
John 17:22-23

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. KJV

Does God give His glory to another?

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. KJV


So what was your point in posting the above? What was you trying to tell us?

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Postby Aineo » Wed May 02, 2007 01:24 pm

RomeSweetHome wrote:Aieno Wrote:
John 17:22-23

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. KJV

Does God give His glory to another?

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. KJV


So what was your point in posting the above? What was you trying to tell us?
Why not just answer the question "does God give His glory to another" instead of avoiding the question?
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Wed May 02, 2007 02:00 pm

I can see right through you buddy. I asked you a question, can you not answer it? What was the point of your post?

"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images". Isaiah 42:8

Its clear to see that your thesis backfired on you, once agian. I asked you the question first, does God give his glory to another? You state He doesnt and you back your position up by quoting Isaiah 42:8.

You tried to use John 17:22 to show that Jesus is not God because he gave his glory away, but you seem to have skimmed over a few of the words just before that instance, the part where God gave His glory to Jesus! So you dug a hole for yourself, and its getting deeper.

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one" John 12:22

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Postby Aineo » Wed May 02, 2007 02:55 pm

I asked a question on August 2, 2006 that you are avoiding answering, just as all other Trinitarians on this thread have avoided answering. Now, does God give His glory to another? What is clear is not that my thesis backfired but you cannot refute God's truth.
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Wed May 02, 2007 05:18 pm

Aieno Wrote:
I asked a question on August 2, 2006 that you are avoiding answering, just as all other Trinitarians on this thread have avoided answering. Now, does God give His glory to another? What is clear is not that my thesis backfired but you cannot refute God's truth.


God will not glorify any other entity as Deity since he alone is God.

Now could you answer my question?

Aieno Wrote:
John 17:22-23

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. KJV

Does God give His glory to another?

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. KJV


What was you trying to prove from the above? What exactly was you trying to tell us?

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Postby Aineo » Wed May 02, 2007 07:51 pm

RomeSweetHome wrote:God will not glorify any other entity as Deity since he alone is God.

Now could you answer my question?

Does God give His glory to another?

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. KJV


What was you trying to prove from the above? What exactly was you trying to tell us?
Isaiah 42:8

[To another] To any other; whether it be man, or whether it be an idol. God claims that all appropriate honors should be rendered to him, and that men should cherish no opinions, maintain no doctrines, indulge in no feelings, that would be derogatory to the honor of his name. This declaration is designed to counteract the propensity everywhere manifest to attribute to man that which belongs to God, or to ascribe to our own wisdom, skill, or power, that which he alone can accomplish.

[Neither my praise] The praise which is due to me. He would not permit graven images to receive the praise of having done that which he himself had accomplished.
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)

Isaiah 55:5
5 "Behold, you will call a nation you do not know,
And a nation which knows you not will run to you,
Because of the LORD your God, even the Holy One of Israel;
For He has glorified you."
NAS

John 11:4
4 But when Jesus heard it, He said, "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified by it."
NAS

John 13:31-32

31 When therefore he had gone out, Jesus said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in Him; 32 if God is glorified in Him, God will also glorify Him in Himself, and will glorify Him immediately.
NAS
God does not give His glory to another, but does glorify nations, and people for His glory. Now Jesus gave his glory to others, which means Jesus is not God.

Satisfied?
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Wed May 02, 2007 09:03 pm

Aieno Wrote:
God does not give His glory to another, but does glorify nations, and people for His glory. Now Jesus gave his glory to others, which means Jesus is not God.


John 17:22-23

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one"

But God gave Jesus His Glory? Does that mean God is no longer God?

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Postby Aineo » Wed May 02, 2007 09:54 pm

Where do you get God gave Jesus His glory in John 17:22-23?
"And the glory which thou gavest me.."
I posted Scripture that shows God gives glory to nations and people. However, I see you are simply going to play your usual games, which is you fail to comment on posted Scriptures so you can repeat the same question over and over and over.
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Postby Jabez » Wed May 02, 2007 11:48 pm

John 5:22-24
18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,
23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.

39You diligently study[c] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,

40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Romans 9 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.


Jesus Bless!
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
Psalms 2:12

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Postby Aineo » Thu May 03, 2007 12:19 am

Jabez, your post from John 5 actually supports my position, especially vs. 38. Jesus said the Father is the only true God and Trinitarians don't believe Jesus' own words.

Now, Trinitarians search the Scriptures and take them out of context in their vain attempt to prove a fallacy, a fallacy that is exposed in the Scriptures since the Father plainly states He, not Jesus created.
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=8863
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Thu May 03, 2007 09:42 am

Aieno Wrote:
I posted Scripture that shows God gives glory to nations and people. However, I see you are simply going to play your usual games, which is you fail to comment on posted Scriptures so you can repeat the same question over and over and over.


John 17:22-23

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one"

What glory did God give Jesus? What is meant from the above verse? The same glory that God gave to Jesus, Jesus gave to "them", so how can you use the above passage to prove Jesus is not God? In that case God is not God, because he gave that very same glory to Christ.

I have to repeat it because you wont answer it fully, it seems I have to drag it out of you.

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Postby Aineo » Thu May 03, 2007 01:52 pm

What glory did God give Jesus?
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Thu May 03, 2007 07:37 pm

My previous post;

What glory did God give Jesus? What is meant from the above verse? The same glory that God gave to Jesus, Jesus gave to "them", so how can you use the above passage to prove Jesus is not God? In that case God is not God, because he gave that very same glory to Christ.


That was my first question to you, so I will await your answer.

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Postby Aineo » Thu May 03, 2007 07:42 pm

And Rome, I answered your question with Scripture. Now, according to you what glory did God give Jesus? And then you might answer my question. Does God gives His glory to another?
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Thu May 03, 2007 09:30 pm

I love the way you always try to wiggle out of things. I however can see right through that smoke screen of yours.

I am not the one that tried to use John 17:22-23 to prove Jesus is not God, you did. I am the one trying to show you that, you dont make any sense. It doesn't matter what kind of glory God gave Jesus because whatever glory God gave to Jesus, Jesus gave it to "them" thus if you use this to imply Jesus is not God because he gave away his glory, God is also no longer God because he gave that glory(whatever kind) away to Jesus.

Your thesis once again has back fired on you, it holds no water. I would appreciate it if you would stop taking us in circles.

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Postby Aineo » Fri May 04, 2007 02:52 am

I would appreciate an answer to the question that all Trinitarians avoid. Does God give His glory to others? I answered your question, not answer mine.
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Fri May 04, 2007 09:01 am

No, God does not give His glory to another.

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Postby Aineo » Fri May 04, 2007 01:48 pm

RomeSweetHome wrote:No, God does not give His glory to another.
Then what glory that God gave Jesus did Jesus give to his apostles, since you agree that it cannot be God's glory?
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Fri May 04, 2007 02:32 pm

Why are you trying to divert this situation? I told you it does not matter what kind of glory it was. You used John 17:22-23 to prove Jesus is not God, why? How can you use that verse to support your position?

I know and you know that whatever kind of glory God gave to Jesus, Jesus gave it to "them". Your position is illogical.

So I suggest you drop that straw man argument that you are trying to set up.

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Postby Aineo » Fri May 04, 2007 03:02 pm

John 17:22-23 is not the only Scripture that defeats the Trinity, and if you cannot follow the logical procession of a thesis then don't complain and misuse logical fallacies such as strawman. A strawman is where person A takes a position, which person B restates and then attacks the restated position.

Now, this thread is supposed to be discussing 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 and I let it get off topic.
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Fri May 04, 2007 03:15 pm

Aieno Wrote:
John 17:22-23 is not the only Scripture that defeats the Trinity, and if you cannot follow the logical procession of a thesis then don't complain and misuse logical fallacies such as strawman. A strawman is where person A takes a position, which person B restates and then attacks the restated position.


We will get to other scriptures that supposedly "defeat the Trinity" when you can tell us why you used THIS specific verse, when it DOES NOT defeat the idea of the Trinity or of Jesus being God. I said you was TRYING to SET UP a straw man, read what I said.

Aieno Wrote:
Now, this thread is supposed to be discussing 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 and I let it get off topic.


You just can never admit your are wrong and humble yourself. Its sad really. I mean your illogical position is so clear for everyone to see, even you, but you wont admit it and now you want to run off the topic "back to the original topic", why? Because you can not answer or explain why on earth you used that scripture (John 17:22-23 ) to try and show Jesus is not God, how pathetic.

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Postby Aineo » Fri May 04, 2007 03:51 pm

First, you have no moderator or administrative authority over this message board and will not dictate what will or will not be discussed on any thread.

Second, I will repeat if you cannot follow a logical argument then just admit it. Jesus prayed that God the Father, the only true God give him the glory that he gave to his apostles.

Now it is time to get back on topic and any further attempt to avoid discussing 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 will be deleted.
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Postby webmaster » Mon May 07, 2007 05:54 am

Still waiting & waiting.. and no answers to debunk 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 ??

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Postby RomeSweetHome » Thu May 10, 2007 02:50 pm

Web master:
Still waiting & waiting.. and no answers to debunk 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 ??


I refused to discuss this with Aieno for various reasons, but since you (Web master) bought it up, I will have a shot at it.

"Then comes the end, when he will turn the Kingdom over to his Father, when he will have put an end to all other government, authority and power; for he must continue to be King until he puts all enemies under his feet.... And when everything has been put in subjection to him, then the Son himself will also become subject to Him who has put everything in subjection to him so that God may be everything in everyone" I Corinthians 15:24-28.

The word "subject" translated here is hupotageesetai it is used in contexts where the meaning can only be position and rank, not essence or nature. For example; a person is subject to the authority of another without this making that one inferior in essence.

The Greek word stems from the verb hupotasso, which is used quite often in the bible.

"Then he (Jesus) went down to Nazareth with them (Joseph and Mary) and was obedient (hupotassomenos) to them. Luke 2:51

"Submit (hupotassomenoi) to one another out of reverence for Christ." Ephesians 5:21

"Everyone must submit (hypotassesthoo) himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established." Romans 13:1

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 does not debunk the Trinity.

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Postby Aineo » Thu May 10, 2007 05:11 pm

So in effect you are trying to tell us that the essence or nature of God must be subjected to Himself and your godhead is composed on equal persons that are subject to an authority of higher rank?
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Thu May 10, 2007 06:10 pm

1 Corinthians 15:28 simply means that Christ, even though he rules forever, will do so under the authority and headship of his Father, Why? Because Christ is subordinate by virtue of him having the nature of a creature, humanity, a nature which is vastly inferior to God’s eternal, uncreated essence.

In the words of the Athanasian Creed:

"Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood".

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Postby Aineo » Thu May 10, 2007 08:41 pm

RomeSweetHome wrote:1 Corinthians 15:28 simply means that Christ, even though he rules forever, will do so under the authority and headship of his Father, Why? Because Christ is subordinate by virtue of him having the nature of a creature, humanity, a nature which is vastly inferior to God’s eternal, uncreated essence.
In other words you agree that Jesus does not have the same nature as God since Jesus was (is) a created being.

The Athanasian Creed is the opinion of one man and is not based in Scripture but is based in and on the traditions of men.
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Fri May 11, 2007 09:39 am

Aieno Wrote:
In other words you agree that Jesus does not have the same nature as God since Jesus was (is) a created being.


Jesus has the same divine name, authority, essence, nature, characteristics, etc., that the Father and the Holy Spirit have. The only difference is Christ voluntarily humbled himself by becoming a slave.

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Postby Aineo » Fri May 11, 2007 09:58 am

RomeSweetHome wrote:Aieno Wrote:
In other words you agree that Jesus does not have the same nature as God since Jesus was (is) a created being.


Jesus has the same divine name, authority, essence, nature, characteristics, etc., that the Father and the Holy Spirit have. The only difference is Christ voluntarily humbled himself by becoming a slave.
I presume you are basing your assumption on Philippians 2.
Philippians 2:1-11
2:1 If therefore there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, 2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself; 4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
NAS
I do not read anything about the Lord having a divine nature that he set aside in an act of humility to become a slave. What I read is that Paul desires that we all adopt the Lord's attitude who although he was in the form of God took on the form of a bond-servant. I also read that God highly exalted him. The Greek word translated "form" is "morfee":
NT:3444

morfee, morfees, hee

the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance: Philippians 2:6
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)
Hebrews tells us that Jesus is the exact representation of God's nature, not that Jesus has God's nature or even a divine nature.
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Fri May 11, 2007 10:33 am

I assume you haven't heard of the hypostatic union?

It is the teaching that the Divine Word of God (John 1:1) "became flesh and dwelt among us," (John 1:14). Therefore, Jesus is both divine and human in one person (Col. 2:9); He has two natures: human and divine.


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