Is Catholicism Christian?

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Aineo
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Is Catholicism Christian?

Postby Aineo » Sun May 15, 2005 09:14 pm

In spite of the fact the Roman Catholic Church lays claim to being the first and only true apostolic church; recent changes in RCC doctrine show this to be false.
John 14:1-8
14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 "And you know the way where I am going." 5 Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?" 6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. 7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." NAS
What does the RCC's catechism state concerning Muslim's?
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

This paragraph essentially proclaims that "the plan of salvation" includes all faiths that acknowledge the true creator. The reasoning given is that since the Muslims claim the faith of Abraham, and worship the one true God, they are not only among the saved, but are at the top of any such list.

In preceding paragraphs (839, 840) the Jews are discussed, and parallels drawn between Christians and Jews. Both it is said, are awaiting the advent of the Messiah, though the Jews do so in unbelief relative to Jesus.

Footnote 330 directs one to Lumen Gentium, (DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH), POPE PAUL VI, November 21, 1964, section 16:

16. ... But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

Footnote 330 also directs one to NOSTRA AETATE, (DECLARATION ON THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS), POPE PAUL VI, October 28, 1965, section 3:

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
Vatican's New Catechism declares Muslims and Jews to be saved!


Catholicism's catechism is a document of contradictions;
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/837.htm

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/846.htm
Another contradiction found in Roman Catholicism is Vatican II, which affirmed the anathema's of the Council of Trent, whereby the Roman Catholic Church declared all non-Catholics who proclaim a faith in Christ heretics and destined for hell.

A SUMMARY OF THE DECLARATIONS OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT

The Present-Day Official Teachings Of The Roman Catholic Church
The Use of Scripture in the "Catechism'

Particularly strong attacks were directed against the use of Scripture in the Catechism: as previously noted, (it was said) that this work did not take into account a whole century of exegetical work; for example, how could it be so naive as to use passages from the Gospel of John to speak of the historical figure of Jesus; it would be shaped by a literalistic faith which could be called fundamentalist, etc. With regard to the specific task of the Catechism, accurate reflection has to take place on the way in which this book should make use of historical-critical exegesis.

Relative to a work which must present the faith - not hypotheses - and which for a significantly long time must be "a sure and authentic reference text for teaching Catholic doctrine" (as the Pope states in the Apostolic Constitution, n. 3), we must keep in mind how rapidly exegetical hypotheses change and, to be honest, how great is the dissent, even among scholars, regarding many theses.

The Catechism has therefore dedicated a special article, numbers 101-104 of the book - to a specific reflection on the right use of Scripture in the witness of the faith. This section has been evaluated by important exegetes as a successful methodological synthesis, which addresses the question not only of the purely historical, but also of the strictly theological, nature of the interpretation of Scripture.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... ss_en.html
101 In order to reveal himself to men, in the condescension of his goodness God speaks to them in human words: "Indeed the words of God, expressed in the words of men, are in every way like human language, just as the Word of the eternal Father, when he took on himself the flesh of human weakness, became like men."
102 Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/101.htm

You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is one and the same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/102.htm

103 For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord's Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God's Word and Christ's Body.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/103.htm

104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, "but as what it really is, the word of God". "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/104.htm

108 Still, the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living". If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/108.htm

109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/109.htm

110 In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/110.htm

111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."
The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/111.htm

112 1. Be especially attentive "to the content and unity of the whole Scripture". Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God's plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.

The phrase "heart of Christ" can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/112.htm
One thing I find interesting about #110 is the Roman Catholic Church does not take into account the culture and literary genres of the time Scripture was written. This can be seen in their belief that Jesus gave Peter the right to bind and loose on earth. The fact this concept was used by the Jews to mean that God's will is what binds and looses is totally ignored by attributing a false authority to Peter.

Who or what is the antichrist?
1 John 2:22-24
22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. NAS
It would appear the Roman Catholic Church would allow those who deny the Son to be equal in God's eyes as those who accept and serve His Son, which is the spirit of antichrist disguished as Christian truth.
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Postby Truth Seeker-Joshua » Mon May 16, 2005 02:49 am

Amen brother..

Jesus is Lord, and the only way.
But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed. Isaiah 53:5

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Postby burwelm » Mon May 16, 2005 03:10 am

It is not about what our heads accept or deny but about what our hearts accept or deny. We can accept the Spirit of Jesus without understanding Jesus in our heads.

Romans 2:1,6, 13-16 "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things...(God) will render to every man according to his deeds...(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another:) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

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Postby Aineo » Mon May 16, 2005 04:03 am

burwelm, I don't see where Romans 2 applies to heresy taught as God's truth.
Ephesians 5:3-14
3 But do not let immorality or any impurity or greed even be named among you, as is proper among saints; 4 and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them; 8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), 10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; 12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. 14 For this reason it says,

"Awake, sleeper,
And arise from the dead,
And Christ will shine on you."

NAS
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Mon May 16, 2005 08:13 am

I remember once in a thread you accused me of spreading "Catholic propaganda" When I replied that I was here to debate with muslims not fellow Christians you asserted that I was the one opening threads etc..

But as all can see, you are the one opening up yet another anti-Catholic thread and that it is not I that open up anti-Protestant ones.

I will address this thread when I return from work, Lord willing.

Peace

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Postby burwelm » Mon May 16, 2005 12:23 pm

Aineo,
I was just saying that we don't know who is saved. Saved is spiritual not mental. The Jews and Muslims may be saved. Jesus is the one who made salvation possible. We may glorify Him by the way we live instead of just through words.

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Postby Aineo » Mon May 16, 2005 02:50 pm

burwelm wrote:Aineo,
I was just saying that we don't know who is saved. Saved is spiritual not mental. The Jews and Muslims may be saved. Jesus is the one who made salvation possible. We may glorify Him by the way we live instead of just through words.
If that is your thesis you are ignoring the fact the Jews have access to God's truth since Jesus is preached in the Law and the Prophets. Also Jesus is mentioned in the Qu'ran, so both groups are as Paul puts it "without excuse".

RomeSweetHome, apparently you decided to ignore Ephesians 5:3-14. If you are going to address the topic of this thread then the only way to do it is by using God's word not the RCC's revisionist history or traditions that contradict Biblical truth. The Bible is clear on who is saved and the Roman Catholic Church does not have the authority to change God's revealed truth.
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Postby Alpha » Mon May 16, 2005 03:52 pm

Aineo is correct in what he says.

Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains . (John 9:41).

In other words, Muslims and Jews are not blind, so they will not count as those who are mentioned in Romans 2. So no matter what religion or demomination you are, if you have access to the truth and you reject it, you are without excuse. If you have the truth and you twist it around then you are doing it to your own destruction (2 Peter 3:16).

RomeSweetHome

Postby RomeSweetHome » Tue May 17, 2005 12:17 am

Aieno Wrote:
RomeSweetHome, apparently you decided to ignore Ephesians 5:3-14. If you are going to address the topic of this thread then the only way to do it is by using God's word not the RCC's revisionist history or traditions that contradict Biblical truth. The Bible is clear on who is saved and the Roman Catholic Church does not have the authority to change God's revealed truth.


What does this have to do with what I said in my previous post?

I havent ignored anything, I havent started my rebuttal yet, patience?

Aieno Wrote:
In spite of the fact the Roman Catholic Church lays claim to being the first and only true apostolic church; recent changes in RCC doctrine show this to be false.


Please show us these "recent changes" that have supposedly have occured.

Aieno Wrote:
What does the RCC's catechism state concerning Muslim's?


First of all I want everyone to know that Aieno has bought this up before and I have personally answered him, but as you all know Aieno unfortunately likes to ask the same questions and make the same accusations time and time again.

This is my answer to you once again;

"what is the plan of salvation?" Is it that all peoples would come to know God through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ? (Mat 28:19) Therefore all people are part of God's plan for salvation. They are to be evangelized in the name of Jesus. I find nothing biblically incorrect about the Catechism saying we should carry that message of salvation to Muslims and include them in that plan of salvation.

In order to understand Verse 841 of the Catechism we must look at its context.

Verses 836-833 speak about Christians who are the Body of Christ. This includes Catholics, Evangelicals, Orthodox Christians and all who profess that “Jesus is Lord.”

Verses 839 -845 clearly is under a new heading describing the Church’s relationship to Non Christians, who are not in the body of Christ. In these verses there is a hierarchy of people outside the body of Christ

The Jewish people who gave us the Old Testament (839-840)

The Catholic Church makes it clear that those who refuse Jesus, after having been presented the Gospel in an authentic way, will spend an eternity in hell. (Cat 846) Why have you skipped this part of the Catechism?

Aieno Wrote:
It would appear the Roman Catholic Church would allow those who deny the Son to be equal in God's eyes as those who accept and serve His Son, which is the spirit of antichrist disguished as Christian truth.


What "appears" to you is not necessarily true, read above and try reading the Catechism in context in the future.

Peace

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Postby Aineo » Tue May 17, 2005 03:20 am

Your explanation defies logic and what article 841 states. Jesus' sacrifice can apply to any human being who accepts Him as their Savior not just the Muslim's and the Jews. What you have not addressed is that the RCC catechism specifically states that only those who are members of the RCC can be saved; and you have not addressed the anathema's. If the anathema's are official church policy then the catechism is a lie and a hypocritical document. If the catechism voids the anathema's then the RCC is admitting that prior Pope's and church councils are not infallible and RCC history is bogus.

You are side stepping the issues I raised.

BTW, if you took the time to read everything I posted in my opening post and checked my references you would have found I quoted from this:
ADDRESS OF CARDINAL JOSEPH RATZINGER

9 October 2002



Current Doctrinal Relevance
of the Catechism of the Catholic Church

The Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Ten years since its publication (11 October 1992)
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... ss_en.html
If you want to deny there are changes to the catechism take it up with your new Pope Benedict since he wrote this article.

Also it seems that when Catholicism gets caught in hypocrisy and contradictions you can't refrain from taking jabs at individuals. Do you suppose you can discuss this issue without your usual sarcastic remarks?
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Tue May 17, 2005 10:49 am

Aieno Wrote:
Your explanation defies logic and what article 841 states. Jesus' sacrifice can apply to any human being who accepts Him as their Savior not just the Muslim's and the Jews. What you have not addressed is that the RCC catechism specifically states that only those who are members of the RCC can be saved; and you have not addressed the anathema's. If the anathema's are official church policy then the catechism is a lie and a hypocritical document. If the catechism voids the anathema's then the RCC is admitting that prior Pope's and church councils are not infallible and RCC history is bogus.


Defies logic? what is illogical about preaching the gospel? I have explained what "article" 841 states, why dont you explain "article" 846 to us?

Havent I ALSO ALREADY answered what is ment by only members of the RCC can go to heaven? I am SURE I have answered this on another thread! same questions and accusations Aieno?

Are there not many Protestant denominations and cults that say only by becomming one of them are u saved? do not many main stream Protestant denominations consider Catholics as non Christians? and therefore unsaved? YES, so stop applying double Standards. If you are going to address Catholics then address your fellow Protestants too.

Also The term “non-Catholics” includes other Christians who are baptized as well as people who have never been baptized. Yes, people from both groups can be saved.

Section 1260 of the Catechism continues: “Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.”

No one can explicitly know Jesus Christ today without the help of the faith community that he established. That faith community had a single name for a minimum of 1,000 years, Catholic.

Aieno Wrote:
You are side stepping the issues I raised.


You are side stepping some of the issues that I also raised like "article" 846.

Aieno Wrote:
BTW, if you took the time to read everything I posted in my opening post and checked my references you would have found I quoted from this:


The link that you gave has a long article to read the fact is I have little time, so my question to you is what are the exact changes that have occured?

since you have read the article, am I correct?

Aieno Wrote:
Also it seems that when Catholicism gets caught in hypocrisy and contradictions you can't refrain from taking jabs at individuals. Do you suppose you can discuss this issue without your usual sarcastic remarks?


It doesnt really have anything to do with hypocrisy or the so called contradictions. It has to do with you bringing up the same issues time and time again when they have been addressed already.

Forgive me.

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Postby Aineo » Tue May 17, 2005 03:50 pm

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
"Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition" is the key to understanding the falseness of this article. Scripture states:
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. NAS

Romans 10:11-13
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call upon Him; 13 for "Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved."
NAS
Baptism is not required to be saved, or Paul is a liar.
Also The term “non-Catholics” includes other Christians who are baptized as well as people who have never been baptized. Yes, people from both groups can be saved.

Section 1260 of the Catechism continues: “Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.”
So what you are telling us is that the catechism contradicts itself?
1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
Not all men are called to one and the same destiny or the lake of fire would not be the ultimate destiny for those who deny Jesus is Lord.
No one can explicitly know Jesus Christ today without the help of the faith community that he established. That faith community had a single name for a minimum of 1,000 years, Catholic.
Now you are contradicting yourself and the catechism since the Orthodox Churches have existed as long as the Roman Catholic Church.
The link that you gave has a long article to read the fact is I have little time, so my question to you is what are the exact changes that have occured?
You don't have the time to read something written by your Pope? That seems a bit odd. Vatican II changed many of the historical teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, which is why the RCC has to deal with schizms. Vatican II ushered in the eccumenical movement of the RCC, which contradicts the anathema's of the Council of Trent and which were confirmed by Vatican II. This is simply another example of how the RCC changes with the wind and contradicts itself for political expediency.
Are there not many Protestant denominations and cults that say only by becomming one of them are u saved? do not many main stream Protestant denominations consider Catholics as non Christians? and therefore unsaved? YES, so stop applying double Standards. If you are going to address Catholics then address your fellow Protestants too.
This thread is not addressing cults or what they teach. If you want to discuss cults that also attempt to void God's truth you are free to start a thread in the appropriate forum dealing with those cults.
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Postby x_m_m_x_ » Sun May 29, 2005 09:21 pm

Roman Catholicism has roots in Babylon. It is not the true Church of Jesus Christ. The R. C. church is not centered around the real Jesus Christ of the bible, but centered around Mary, and money, and good works, it is another gospel. "The Assumption of Mary", "purgatory", "transubstantiation", infant "baptism", extreme unction etc. are all cunningly devised fables, and doctrines of devils. Jesus Christ has nothing to do with mass either, for he is alive forever more. There is only one Holy Father, and it sure isn't the pope, it is God Almighty. True born again followers of Jesus Christ cannot have anything to do with the false teachings of Roman Catholicism, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth and He would not be in the R.C.church. I'm not trying to sound harsh, but truth is truth. Roman Catholicism is not christian.


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