Muhammed the borrower

[Loki]

1) The story of the Palm Tree
Quran: [19:22-26]
Earlyer(st) source(s) of the story: The Pseudo Gospel of Matthew
Earlyest Date of the story:5th Century AD
Excerpt: Chapter 20 "And it came to pass on the third day of their journey, while they were walking, that the blessed Mary was fatigued by the excessive heat of the sun in the desert; and seeing a palm tree, she said to Joseph: Let me rest a little under the shade of this tree. Joseph therefore made haste, and led her to the palm, and made her come down from her beast. And as the blessed Mary was sitting there, she looked up to the foliage of the palm, and saw it full of fruit, and said to Joseph: I wish it were possible to get some of the fruit of this palm. And Joseph said to her: I wonder that thou sayest this, when thou seest how high the palm tree is; and that thou thinkest of eating of its fruit. I am thinking more of the want of water, because the skins are now empty, and we have none wherewith to refresh ourselves and our cattle. Then the child Jesus, with a joyful countenance, reposing in the bosom of His mother, said to the palm: O tree, bend thy branches, and refresh my mother with thy fruit. And immediately at these words the palm bent its top down to the very feet of the blessed Mary; and they gathered from it fruit, with which they were all refreshed. And after they had gathered all its fruit, it remained bent down, waiting the order to rise from Him who had commanded it to stoop. Then Jesus said to it: Raise thyself, O palm tree, and be strong, and be the companion of my trees, which are in the paradise of my Father; and open from thy roots a vein of water which has been hid in the earth, and let the waters flow, so that we may be satisfied from thee. And it rose up immediately, and at its root there began to come forth a spring of water exceedingly clear and cool and sparkling. And when they saw the spring of water, they rejoiced with great joy, and were satisfied, themselves and all their cattle and their beasts. Wherefore they gave thanks to God. " -- The Pseudo Gospel of Matthew

2) Jesus making clay pigeons
Quran: [3:49]
Earlyer(st) source(s) of the story: History of Nativity, First Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ and Thomas’ Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ, Arabic Infancy Gospel
Earlyest Date of the story: 2th Century AD (M. R. James in "The Apocryphal New Testament", pub. by Oxford, p 38 regarding "The Protevangelium of James")
Excerpt: "46. Again, on another day, the Lord Jesus was with the boys at a stream of water, and they had again made little fish-ponds. And the Lord Jesus had made twelve sparrows, and had arranged them round His fish-pond, three on each side. And it was the Sabbath-day. Wherefore a Jew, the son of Hanan, coming up, and seeing them thus engaged, said in anger and great indignation: Do you make figures of clay on the Sabbath-day? And he ran quickly, and destroyed their fish-ponds. But when the Lord Jesus clapped His hands over the sparrows which He had made, they flew away chirping. Then the son of Hanan came up to the fish-pond of Jesus also, and kicked it with his shoes, and the water of it vanished away. And the Lord Jesus said to him: As that water has vanished away, so thy life shall likewise vanish away. And immediately that boy dried up." -- First Gospel in the infancy of Jesus Christ

3) Jesus speaking from the cradle
Quran:[19:29-33]
Earlyer(st) source(s) of the story: History of Nativity, First Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ and Thomas’ Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ, Arabic Infancy Gospel
Earlyest Date of the story: 2th Century AD (M. R. James in "The Apocryphal New Testament", pub. by Oxford, p 38 regarding "The Protevangelium of James")
Excerpt: "We find (1) what follows in the book of Joseph the high priest, who lived in the time of Christ. Some say that he is Caiaphas. (2) He has said that Jesus spoke, and, indeed, when he was lying in His cradle said to Mary His mother: I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Logos, whom thou hast brought forth, as the Angel Gabriel announced to thee; and my Father has sent me for the salvation of the world." -- The First Gospel in the Infancy of Jesus Christ

4) The raven showing Cain how to hide his brother's body
Quran: [5:30-32]
Earlyer(st) source(s) of the story: Targum of Jonathan-ben-Uzziah and the Pirke-Rabbi Eleazar
Earlyest Date of the story: 150-200 AD
Excerpt: In the book Pirke Rabbi Eleazer we find the Source of the burying of Abel as described in the Koran, there being no difference excepting that the raven indicates the mode to Adam instead of to Cain, as follows:- "Adam and Eve, sitting by the corpse, wept not knowing what to do, for they had as yet no knowledge of burial. A raven coming up, took the dead body of its fellow, and having scratched up the earth, buried it thus before their eyes. Adam said, Let us follow the example of the raven, and so taking up Abel's body buried it at once." -- Pirke Rabbi Eleazer

5) Abraham breaking the idols
Quran: [21:51-71]
Earlyer(st) source(s) of the story: Midrash Rabbah
Earlyest Date of the story: 2nd Century AD
Excerpt: “Terah was an idolater : once he went away and left Abraham to sell the idols. Whenever a buyer came, Abraham asked of his age. If he replied, I am fifty, or sixty who desires to worship the work of a day.” so that buyer went away ashamed. Once a woman came, with a dish of wheat and said, `Here, put this before them; but Abraham took a stick and beat down all the idols, and put the stick into the hands of the largest idol. When his father returned, he said, `Who has done this!’ On which Abraham replied, `Why should I deny?" -- Midrash Rabbah paragraph 38

[Loki]

6) The Queen of Sheba
Quran: [27:44]
Earlyer(st) source(s) of the story: the Targum of Esther.
Earlyest Date of the story: 4th Century AD
Excerpt: "At another time, when the heart of Solomon was gladdened with wine, he gave orders for the beasts of the land, the birds of the air, the creeping things of the earth, the demons from above and the Genii, to be brought, that they might dance around him, in order that all the kings waiting upon him might behold his grandeur. And all the royal scribes summoned by their names before him; in fact, all were there except the captives and prisoners and those in charge of them. Just then the Red-cock, enjoying itself, could not be found; and King Solomon said that they should seize and bring it by force, and indeed he sought to kill it. But just then the cock appeared in presence of the King, and said: O Lord, King of the earth! having applied thine ear, listen to my words. It is hardly three months since I made a firm resolution within me that I would not eat a crumb of bread, nor drink a drop of water until I had seen the whole world, and over it make my flight, saying to myself, I must know the city and the kingdom which is not subject to thee, my Lord King. Then I found the fortified city Qîtôr in the Eastern lands, and around it are stones of gold and silver in the streets plentiful as rubbish, and trees planted from the beginning of the world, and rivers to water it, flowing out of the garden of Eden. Many men are there wearing garlands from the garden close by. They shoot arrows, but cannot use the bow. They are ruled by a woman, called Queen of Sheba. Now if it please my Lord King, thy servant, having bound up my girdle, will set out for the fort Qîtôr in Sheba; and having "bound their Kings with chains and their Nobles with links of iron," will bring them into thy presence. The proposal pleased the King, and the scribes prepared a despatch, which was placed under the bird's wing, and away it flew high up in the sky. It grew strong surrounded by a crowd of birds, and reached the Fort of Sheba. By chance the Queen of Sheba was out in the morning worshipping the sea; and the air being darkened by the multitude of birds, she became so alarmed as to rend her clothes in trouble and distress. Just then the Cock alighted by her, and she seeing the letter under its wing opened and read it as follows: "King Solomon sendeth to thee his salaam, and saith, The high and holy One hath set me over the beasts of the field, etc.; and the kings of the four Quarters send to ask after my welfare. Now if it please thee to come and ask after my welfare, I will set thee high above them all. But if it please thee not, I will send kings and armies against thee; — the beasts of the field are my people, the birds of the air my riders, the demons and genii thine enemies, — to imprison you, to slay and to feed upon you." When the Queen of Sheba heard it, she again rent her garments, and sending for her Nobles asked their advice. They knew not Solomon, but advised her to send vessels by the sea, full of beautiful ornaments and gems, together with 6000 boys and girls in purple garments, who had all been born at the same moment; also to send a letter promising to visit him by the end of the year. It was a journey of seven years but she promised to come in three. When at last she came, Solomon sent a messenger shining in brilliant attire, like the morning dawn, to meet her. As they came together, she stepped from her carriage. "Why dost thou thus?" he asked. "Art thou not Solomon?" she said. "Nay, I am but a servant that standeth in his presence." The queen at once addressed a parable to her followers in compliment to him, and then was led by him to the Court. Solomon hearing she had come, arose and sat down in the Palace of glass. When the Queen of Sheba saw it, she thought that the glass floor was water, and so in crossing over lifted up her garments. When Solomon seeing the hair about her legs, cried out to her: Thy beauty is the beauty of women, but thy hair is as the hair of men; hair is good in man, but in woman it is not becoming. On this she said: My Lord, I have three enigmas to put to thee. If thou canst answer them, I shall know that thou art a wise man: but if not thou art like all around thee. When he had answered all three, she replied, astonished: Blessed be the Lord thy God, who hath placed thee on the throne that thou mightest rule with right and justice. And she gave to Solomon much gold and silver; and he to her whatsoever she desired." -- the Targum of Esther

7) The lord's blessing of Mary trough her parents
Quran: [37:37]
Earlyer(st) source(s) of the story: The Protevangelium of James
Earlyest Date of the story: 3th Century AD
Excerpt: "And behold an angel of the Lord came to her and said: "Anna, Anna, the Lord has heard your prayer. You shall conceive and bear, and your offspring shall be spoken of in the whole world." And Anna said: "As the Lord my God lives, if I bear a child, whether male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall serve him all the days of its life......And her six months were fulfilled, as the angel had said: in the seventh month Anna brought forth. And she said to the midwife: "What have I brought froth?" and the midwife said: "A female." And Anna said: "My soul is magnified this day." And she laid it down. And when the days were fulfilled, Anna purified herself from her childbed and gave suck to the child, and called her name Mary.....When she (Mary) was two years old, Joachim said to Anna: "Let us bring her up to the Temple of the Lord that we may fulfill the promise which we made, lest the Lord send some evil upon us and our gift become unacceptable." And Anna replied let us wait until the third year that the child may not long after her father and mother. And Joachim said: "Very well." And when the child was three years old, Joachim said: "Let us ......in order that the child may not turn back and her heart be enticed away from the Temple of the Lord." And he did so until they went up to the Temple of the Lord. And the priest, (Zacharias) took her and kissed her and blessed her, saying: "The Lord has magnified your name among all generations; because of you the Lord at the end of the days will manifest his redemption to the children of Israel......And Mary was in the Temple nurtured like a dove and received food from the hand of an angel." -- The Protevangelium of James

8 ) The lot throwing for Mary
Quran: [3:34]
Earlyer(st) source(s) of the story: The Gospel Of The Nativity of Mary
Earlyest Date of the story: 4th-6th Century
Excerpt: "Now there was among the rest Joseph, of the house and family of David, a man of great age: and when all brought their rods, according to the order, he alone withheld his. Wherefore, when nothing in conformity with the divine voice appeared, the high priest thought it necessary to consult God a second time; and He answered, that of those who had been designated, he alone to whom the virgin ought to be espoused had not brought his rod. Joseph, therefore, was found out. For when he had brought his rod, and the dove came from heaven; and settled upon the top of it, it clearly appeared to all that he was the man to whom the virgin should be espoused." -- The Nativity of Mary

9) The companions of the cave
Quran: [18:9-14]
Earlyer(st) source(s) of the story: The Seven Sleepers of Eusebius
Earlyest Date of the story: The Syriac writer, Jacob of Sarug, in a homily published in the Acta Sanctorum, gives the myth at some length. He died A.D. 521. Other early Syriac forms of the story are known
Excerpt: "In the days of Decius' reign over Rome, in the city of Ephesus, temples are erected to non-Christian dieties. The inhabitants are to worship and sacrifice at these places, and turn from their faiths previously held. Seven high ranking Christians lock them selves in their homes, and are then arrested and brought before the Emperor. Leaving the city to perform some function or duty, the Emperor gives them a temporary reprieve until he returns. The seven give all their possessions to the poor, and flee to a cave on Mt. Celion. Each day, one of the seven go back to town (in disguise) to buy food etc. One day, the particluar buyer dicovers (while in town) that the seven are being sought after again. Back at the cave after relating the situation, the seven weep and pray. God makes them fall asleep. The emperor through others discovers their hiding place, and has it bricked up to seal them in. Two christians are able to hide a witness' report between the rocks. Long afterwards, when the Christian emperor Theodosius is ruling, he laments that he and his subjects are beginning to disbelieve in the resurrection of the dead. God decides to help him, and gives a resident of Ephesus the idea to build a stable on Mt. Celion. Of course, he find the blocked up cave, and it is reopened, and the sleepers awake like nothing had happened. They emerge, and to their surprise, there are crosses on buildings everywhere. They pay for purchases in town with their old coins, and the witness' account in the rocks is found. The story spreads, and Theodosius comes to meet these men. He believes in the resurrection of the dead, and they die, resting on the earth until the day of resurrection."

[Loki]

10) The Mary trinity
Quran: [5:116]
Earlyer(st) source(s) of the story: peddled by a heretical sect called the Choloridians/Maryamia
which had been banished to Arabia at the time.
Earlyest Date of the sect: 7th Century

11) The Story of The Mountain
Quran: [7:171]
Earlyer(st) source(s) of the story: Talmud - Avodah Zarah 2b
Earlyest Date of the story: 100-550 AD
Excerpt: "The Holy One, blessed is He, raised a mountain over Israel as though it were a dome. And He said to them: if you hold to the Torah all is well, but if not you will be buried here!" -- Talmud Avodah Zarah 2b

12) The story of the Heavy Keys
Quran: [28:76]
Earlyer(st) source(s) of the story: Talmud Bavli - Sanhedrin 110a
Earlyest Date of the story: 100-550 AD
Excerpt: "And Rabbi Levi said: "The keys to Korah's treasure house was a load for 300 white mules and the keys and locks were leather."" Talmud Bavli - Sanhedrin 110a

13) The Claim for the last prophet
Quran: [33:40]
Earlyer(st) source(s) of the story: The Prophet Mani
Earlyest Date of the story: 3th century AD
Excerpt: "There are many parallels to the teachings and story of Mani to the teachings and story of Muhammad, and it may be possible that Muhammad was influenced by Mani. Muhammad may have adopted many of Mani's concepts, such as Mani's role as Paraclete and last of the Prophets. Muhammad said that his prophethood was revealed to him by an angel as Mani had claimed about himself. And as Mani claimed to be the successor to prophets like Jesus and other prophets whose teachings he said were locally corrupted, so too did Muhammad later claim to be the successor to prophets whose teachings he said were locally corrupted." -- Wikipedia, Prophet Mani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_%28prophet%29)

14) The whole race slain?
Quran: [5:27-32]
Earlyer(st) source(s) of the story: Mishnah Sanhedrin, 4:5 (Jewish commentary on the torah)
Earlyest Date of the story: 3th-4th Century (Encyclopedia Judaica, 1996, Keter Publishing House Jerusalem)
Excerpt: "We find it said in the case of Cain who murdered his brother, 'The voice of thy brother's bloods crieth' (Gen. 4:10). It is not said here blood in the singular, but bloods in the plural, that is, his own blood and the blood of his seed. Man was created single in order to show that to him who kills a single individual it shall be reckoned that he has slain the whole race, but to him who preserves the life of a single individual it is counted that he hath preserved the whole race." -- Mishnah Sanhedrin, 4:5

15) Christ did not suffer on the cross?
Quran: [4:157-158]
Earlyer(st) source(s) of the story: the teaching of the Gnostic heretic Basilides, Travels Of The Apostles, The Manichean Religion
Earlyest Date of the story: 32-120 AD
Excerpt: "he taught his deluded followers "That He had not suffered; and that a certain Simon of Cyrene had been compelled to carry His cross for Him; and that this man was crucified through ignorance and error, having been changed in form by Him, so that it should be thought that he was Jesus Himself." -- the teaching of the Gnostic heretic Basilides according to Irenaeus

16) The Balance between good and bad deeds:
Quran: [7:7-8], [7:44], [21:48]
Earlyer(st) source(s) of the story: The Book of the Death; Judgement, The Testament Of Abraham
Earlyest Date of the story: ancient Egyptian mythology 2500 BC, Testament Of Abraham 2nd-3th century AD
Excerpt: "In the midst of the two gates stood a throne, and on it sat a marvellous man ... and before him stood a table like unto crystal, all of gold and fine linen. And on the table lay a book, its thickness was six cubits and its breadth ten cubits. And to the right and left of it (the table) there stood two angels, holding paper and ink and a pen. And in front of the table was seated a light-bearing angel, holding a Balance in his hand; and to the left sat a fiery angel, altogether merciless and stern, holding in his hand a trumpet, in which he kept an all consuming fire, the test of sinners. And the marvellous man who was seated on the throne was himself judging and proving the souls, but the two angels who were on the right and on the left were registering: the one on the right was registering the righteous acts, but the one on the left the sins. And the one in front of the table, the one who held tbe Balance, was weighing the souls; and the fiery angel who held the fire was testing the souls. And Abraham asked Michael, the general-in-chief, ‘What are these things that we are beholding?’ And the general-in-chief said, ‘What thou seest, holy Abraham, is the judgment and retribution.’" -- The Testament Of Abraham

17) Satan refused to worship Adam
Quran: [2:34]
Earlyer(st) source(s) of the story: Gospel of Bartholomew, The Aggadah (compilation of jewish oral traditions)
Earlyest Date of the story: 3th century AD
Excerpt: "But the devil said: "Allow me to tell you how I was cast down from here, and God made man. I wandered to and fro in the world, and God said unto Michael: Bring me earth from the four ends of the world, and water out of the four rivers of Paradise. And when Michael had brought them to him, he formed Adam in the east, and gave form to the shapeless earth, and stretched sinews and veins, and united everything into a harmonious whole; And he showed him reverence for his own sake because he was his image. And Michael also worshiped him. And when I came from the ends of the world, Michael said to me: ‘Worship the image of God which he has made in his own likeness. But I said: ‘I am fire of fire, I was the first angel to be formed, and shall worship clay and matter? And Michael said to me: ‘Worship, lest God be angry with you.’ I answered: ‘God will not be angry with me; but I will set up my throne over against his throne, and shall as he is [Isa. 14:14f.].’ Then God was angry with me and cast me down, after he had commanded the windows of heaven to be opened."

18 ) Jesus a mere prophet
Quran: [43:59]
Earlyer(st) source(s) of the story: The Ebonite Heresy
Earlyest Date of the heresy: 1th Century AD
Excerpt: "Ebionites originally were a first century Jewish-Christian sect. They emphasized Jewish law and rejected Paul's teachings. Most considered him to be a man, not God. Later use of this term refers to anyone who minimizes the divinity of Christ.", "their influence is perhaps traceable amongst the Mandeans, and it is suggested by Uhlhorn and others that they may be brought into connection with the origin of Islam" -- Catholic Encyclopedia, Ebionites (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05242c.htm.)

[H2O]

10) The Mary trinity
Quran: [5:116]
Earlyer(st) source(s) of the story: peddled by a heretical sect called the Choloridians/Maryamia
which had been banished to Arabia at the time.
Earlyest Date of the sect: 7th Century

وَإِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَأَنتَ قُلتَ لِلنَّاسِ اتَّخِذُونِي وَأُمِّيَ إِلَهَيْنِ مِن دُونِ اللّهِ قَالَ سُبْحَانَكَ مَا يَكُونُ لِي أَنْ أَقُولَ مَا لَيْسَ لِي بِحَقٍّ إِن كُنتُ قُلْتُهُ فَقَدْ عَلِمْتَهُ تَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِي وَلاَ أَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِكَ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ عَلاَّمُ الْغُيُوبِ

and when Allah says: " Oh Jesus Son of Maryam ! Did you say to the people "take me and my mother as two gods other than Alllaah ?" Jesus will say: "Glory to you, it was not for me to say what I had no right to...5:116

I would like to know where is the worship of three in that verse ? The verse excludes Alllaah as being worshipped with Jesus and his Mother.

This must be another one of your copy and paste techniques from an anti Islamic website i.e. Christian Missionary Propaganda.

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Loki,

Excellent summary of Koranic borrowing….

Keep up the good work.

[Loki]

I would like to know where is the worship of three in that verse ? The verse excludes Alllaah as being worshipped with Jesus and his Mother.

This must be another one of your copy and paste techniques from an anti Islamic website i.e. Christian Missionary Propaganda.

First things first, it's funny that this is the only comment you can come up with after such a large list of borrowings...

anyhow, i think you are the one changing things here... since the majority of translations say worship Jesus and Mary Besides Allah!

Pickthall "And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?"

Yusuf Ali "And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden."

Shakir "And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things."

Sher Ali "And when ALLAH will say, `O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, `Take me and my mother for two gods beside ALLAH?' he will answer, `Holy art THOU, I could never say that which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is Thou alone WHO art the Knower of all hidden things"

Khalifa "GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother idols beside GOD?' " He will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets."

Arberry "And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?' He said, 'To Thee be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, Thou knowest it, knowing what is within my soul, and I know not what is within Thy soul; Thou knowest the things unseen"

Palmer "And when God said, 'O Jesus, son of Mary! is it thou who didst say to men, take me and my mother for two gods, beside God?' He said, 'I celebrate Thy praise! what ails me that I should say what I have no right to? If I had said it, Thou wouldst have known it; Thou knowest what is in my soul, but I know not what is in Thy soul; verily, Thou art one who knoweth the unseen."

Rodwell "And when God shall say - "O Jesus, Son of Mary: hast thou said unto mankind - 'Take me and my mother as two Gods, beside God?"' He shall say - "Glory be unto Thee! it is not for me to say that which I know to be not the truth; had I said that, verily thou wouldest have known it: Thou knowest what is in me, but I know not what is in Thee; for Thou well knowest things unseen!"

Sale "And when God shall say [unto Jesus, at the last day], o Jesus son of Mary, hast thou said unto men, take me and my mother for two gods, beside God? He shall answer, praise be unto thee! It is not for me to say that which I ought not; if I had said so, thou wouldest surely have known it: Thou knowest what is in me, but I know not what is in thee; for thou art the knower of secrets."

Too the knowledge of the American heritage dictionary beside(s) still means.

be·sides (b-sdz) KEY

ADVERB:

1. In addition; also.
2. Moreover; furthermore.
3. Otherwise; else: has been to Mexico but nowhere besides.

only Arberry and Yusuf Ali use different words Derogated and Apart From.
wich respectfully mean:

der·o·gate (dr-gt) KEY

PREPOSITION:

1. In addition to.
2. Except for; other than: No one besides the owner could control the dog.

a·part (-pärt) KEY

ADVERB:

1.
a. At a distance in place, position, or time: railings spaced two feet apart; born three years apart.
b. Away from another or others: grew apart over the years; decided to live apart.
2. In or into parts or pieces: split apart.
3. One from another: I can't tell the twins apart.
4. Aside or in reserve, as for a separate use or purpose: funds set apart for the project.
5. As a distinct item or entity: Quality sets it apart.
6. So as to except or exclude from consideration; aside: All joking apart, I think you're wrong.

either you are inventing new translations again, or you should become a quran translator and teach these above mentioned amateurs how to translate a quran!

and stay on topic please

[H2O]

1. In addition; also.
2. Moreover; furthermore.
3. Otherwise; else: has been to Mexico but nowhere besides.

only Arberry and Yusuf Ali use different words Derogated and Apart From.
wich respectfully mean:

der·o·gate (dr-gt) KEY

PREPOSITION:

1. In addition to.
2. Except for; other than: No one besides the owner could control the dog.

a·part (-pärt) KEY

ADVERB:

1.
a. At a distance in place, position, or time: railings spaced two feet apart; born three years apart.
b. Away from another or others: grew apart over the years; decided to live apart.
2. In or into parts or pieces: split apart.
3. One from another: I can't tell the twins apart.
4. Aside or in reserve, as for a separate use or purpose: funds set apart for the project.
5. As a distinct item or entity: Quality sets it apart.
6. So as to except or exclude from consideration; aside: All joking apart, I think you're wrong.

And to know what is meant by "Besides" or any other word your wish to favor you would have to got to the Arabic to get a clearification of what meaning is meant since the English is not specific to your comprehension of it.

The Arabic is "مِنْ دُونِ = min duuni" which is a preposition in the context meaning with a noun following after it "without, other than, to the exclusion of, not including, to the exception of." This is what the Arabic says. There is no mention of a trinity worship of Jesus His mother and Allah. There is only a mention the worship of two excluding one.

either you are inventing new translations again, or you should become a quran translator and teach these above mentioned amateurs how to translate a quran!

How many times are you going to be told this. My second language is Arabic I have no need for a translation, much less do I have one, and a translation is NOT the Quran. The above is what the Arabic implying unless if you speak Arabic we can have our debate in Arabic to debate what min duuni means. Other than that Loki do you self a favor there are plenty of Arabic speaking Christians who can confirm what we rendered that if you have the ardacity to do so.

[Aburaees]

I would like to know where is the worship of three in that verse ? The verse excludes Alllaah as being worshipped with Jesus and his Mother.

It seems there is a difference of opinion on whether Surah 5:116 implies an Allah/Isa/Maryam Trinity was woshipped by Christians.

Take a look at another Qur'anic ayat;

73 Indeed those who say: 'Allah is the third of the Trinity’ became unbelievers. There is but One God. If they do not desist in what they say, a painful punishment will afflict those of them that disbelieve.
74 Will they not turn to Allah in repentance and ask His forgiveness? He is Forgiving, Merciful.
75 The Messiah, the son of Mary, was not except a Messenger, other Messengers had gone before him. His mother was in the state of sincerity, they both ate food. See how We make plain to them Our signs. Then, see how perverted they are.

It is clear that the Qur'an believed that the Christian Trinity included Allah, 'Isa and Maryam.

And nowhere in the Qur'an are Christians admonished for worshipping the Holy Spirit.

The Qur'an knows of only one type of Christian Trinity, and an incorrect one at that.

Follow this link to see another proof that the Qur'an was confused about Judaeo-Christian tradition/scripture; http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?p=56711#56711


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[Loki]

And to know what is meant by "Besides" or any other word your wish to favor you would have to got to the Arabic to get a clearification of what meaning is meant since the English is not specific to your comprehension of it.

The Arabic is "مِنْ دُونِ = min duuni" which is a preposition in the context meaning with a noun following after it "without, other than, to the exclusion of, not including, to the exception of." This is what the Arabic says. There is no mention of a trinity worship of Jesus His mother and Allah. There is only a mention the worship of two excluding one.

Look H20 the quran clearly accusing christians of believing Mary to be God together with Christ and wheter or not God is included is allready unimportant, since the concept of venerating Mary as God is false !!! and the majority muslim and christian sees this verse as trinetarian rebutal from Muhammed, if it isn't then Muhammed is accusing christians of a dualistic God Mary/Jesus wich would be even more false!... you're acting like the 'correct' minority again

either you are inventing new translations again, or you should become a quran translator and teach these above mentioned amateurs how to translate a quran!

How many times are you going to be told this. My second language is Arabic I have no need for a translation, much less do I have one, and a translation is NOT the Quran. The above is what the Arabic implying unless if you speak Arabic we can have our debate in Arabic to debate what min duuni means. Other than that Loki do you self a favor there are plenty of Arabic speaking Christians who can confirm what we rendered that if you have the ardacity to do so.

Then a translation of the bible is not a bible either, and then i have bereft you of every right from now on of you to judge the bible untill you learn Hebrew, Greek and Aramaec. And this goes then as a rule for all muslim apologetics, including the 'great' Ahmed Deedat, Osama Abdallah, etc...

see how one sided this rhetoric 'i own the quran cause i speak arabic' is when the roles are reversed

[H2O]

Surah 5:73-75 wrote:
73 Indeed those who say: 'Allah is the third of the Trinity’ became unbelievers. There is but One God. If they do not desist in what they say, a painful punishment will afflict those of them that disbelieve.
74 Will they not turn to Allah in repentance and ask His forgiveness? He is Forgiving, Merciful.
75 The Messiah, the son of Mary, was not except a Messenger, other Messengers had gone before him. His mother was in the state of sincerity, they both ate food. See how We make plain to them Our signs. Then, see how perverted they are.



It is clear that the Qur'an believed that the Christian Trinity included Allah, 'Isa and Maryam.

And nowhere in the Qur'an are Christians admonished for worshipping the Holy Spirit.

The Qur'an knows of only one type of Christian Trinity, and an incorrect one at that.

It is clear that verse 73 is talking about Allah being part of a trinity which is condemned. Then the context draws to the topic of Jesus as he is "no more than A messenger" denouncing him as being divine.

Then his mother is defended as " a woman of truth " against the accusations of here being an unchaste woman. Nothing here denotes Maryam as being divine or inferes her to being divine in this context to allude to her being associated with the 3 spoken about in the previous verse, or defends her, like her son, of being no more that a woman etc..
The mention of Maryum in the defence is directed to the Jews whom believe contrary, not to the Christians about their beliefs.

And to know what is meant by "Besides" or any other word your wish to favor you would have to got to the Arabic to get a clearification of what meaning is meant since the English is not specific to your comprehension of it.

The Arabic is "مِنْ دُونِ = min duuni" which is a preposition in the context meaning with a noun following after it "without, other than, to the exclusion of, not including, to the exception of." This is what the Arabic says. There is no mention of a trinity worship of Jesus His mother and Allah. There is only a mention the worship of two excluding one.

Look H20 the quran clearly accusing christians of believing Mary to be God together with Christ and wheter or not God is included is allready unimportant, since the concept of venerating Mary as God is false !!! and the majority muslim and christian sees this verse as trinetarian rebutal from Muhammed, if it isn't then Muhammed is accusing christians of a dualistic God Mary/Jesus wich would be even more false!... you're acting like the 'correct' minority again

Your missing the point. The Quran never says or condemns Christians for worshipping Jesus and his Mother. It condems the "People of The Book" whom are many of different denominations, including Catholics. Of course Non-Catholics have always considered Catholics not to be Christians like wise vise versa however all of you are "People of The Book" and your various beliefs which are blasphemious to the Reality and Majesty of G-d has been condemned.

Then a translation of the bible is not a bible either

Correct. Any Jew or Christian who knows Hebrew or Greek will tell you this. When you translate you loose meaning as to which you cannot translate from one language into another word for word without having to substitute word structure to give the closest meaning.

and then i have bereft you of every right from now on of you to judge the bible untill you learn Hebrew, Greek and Aramaec. And this goes then as a rule for all muslim apologetics, including the 'great' Ahmed Deedat, Osama Abdallah, etc...

Ahmad Deedat knows Hebrew ....didnt you know this ? Anyhow Loki I rarely quote the Bible and I am open to anyone who corrects a translation or refers back to the original for clearification whereas the English maybe missleading.

That is what I want some of you to do, but I rarely see any of you doing it except for few, other than that most of you pick your favorite translations to establish your points rather than dialogue with the original. I know sometimes I throw a little here and there about the Bible, and I seldomly talk about the Bible in these threads. Most of all my posts are about Quran and Hadeeth.

see how one sided this rhetoric 'i own the quran cause i speak arabic' is when the roles are reversed

Loki I have no objections to this. If you wish to go into the Bible in its original I would have no problem with it , I think it s agreat idea. As for us and our book you know that no muslims considers the translations the Quran. Even Non Muslim translators have even said the same thing.

There was a Christian that spoke Arabic on this forum but he, in my opinion, got fed up and left because of the constant attacks against him by his own just because he was an Arab whom refered to G-d as Alllaah in his own langauge.


[/quote]

[Loki]

It is clear that verse 73 is talking about Allah being part of a trinity which is condemned. Then the context draws to the topic of Jesus as he is "no more than A messenger" denouncing him as being divine.

yes and the verse also says "His mother was in the state of sincerity, they both ate food." Why does he need to emphasize on Mary's humanhood, when the accusation of her being a God doesn't excist according to you?

Then his mother is defended as " a woman of truth " against the accusations of here being an unchaste woman. Nothing here denotes Maryam as being divine

see the above

or inferes her to being divine in this context to allude to her being associated with the 3 spoken about in the previous verse, or defends her, like her son, of being no more that a woman etc..

of course she is no more then a woman, that is THE christian view... catholics venerate her as a pure and very unique and remarkable woman, but never as a God or a part of the triune nature of God... so again, who is muhammed rebuting? except his own straw men?

The mention of Maryum in the defence is directed to the Jews whom believe contrary, not to the Christians about their beliefs.

Where do you see that Muhammed is directing him to the jewish false beliefs? is that your interpretation or cover up?

The Arabic is "مِنْ دُونِ = min duuni" which is a preposition in the context meaning with a noun following after it "without, other than, to the exclusion of, not including, to the exception of." This is what the Arabic says. There is no mention of a trinity worship of Jesus His mother and Allah. There is only a mention the worship of two excluding one.

Put it simple H20... Muhammed makes the accusation of worshipping two Gods next to Allah... makes it THREE ! and of what religion are the people part of mentioned? of Christianity! so what does muhammed think he is rebuting? christianity!

Your missing the point. The Quran never says or condemns Christians for worshipping Jesus and his Mother. It condems the "People of The Book" whom are many of different denominations, including Catholics. Of course Non-Catholics have always considered Catholics not to be Christians like wise vise versa however all of you are "People of The Book" and your various beliefs which are blasphemious to the Reality and Majesty of G-d has been condemned.

Indirectly a christian is a polytheist an idolater and a fulltime practiser of Shirk according to Islam... so for sure a christian is condemned...

and muhammed reffered to the people of the book as the jews and the christians, i think this is common knowledge for a muslim... how does muhammed or his army while persecuting know to differentiate between a christian and a heretic if they themselves can't even get their facts straight?

And i'm a catholic by baptism and heart, minded like a protestant with great sympathy for protestant churches and my protestant friends... who are all brothers in my opinion... all of them are christian... and i defend protestantism and catholicism as christian equally... i only exclude sects (yehova's witnesses, mormons, uniterians, christian science, muslims,...) who alter the gospel in such a way that salvation becomes unatainable

Then a translation of the bible is not a bible either

Correct. Any Jew or Christian who knows Hebrew or Greek will tell you this. When you translate you loose meaning as to which you cannot translate from one language into another word for word without having to substitute word structure to give the closest meaning.

Well many indeed study the Textus Receptus for proof and reproof, and many translations are being printed, corrected and updated... If i don't trust a translation or a certain chapter and i feel the need to study it thoroughly i would too try and study the original language... yet i have my trust in the translations... i never saw a bible translation differing that much from another that it had an entire other meaning... at best you find a longer sentence or another synonym used and that's about it.

and then i have bereft you of every right from now on of you to judge the bible untill you learn Hebrew, Greek and Aramaec. And this goes then as a rule for all muslim apologetics, including the 'great' Ahmed Deedat, Osama Abdallah, etc...

Ahmad Deedat knows Hebrew ....didnt you know this ? Anyhow Loki I rarely quote the Bible and I am open to anyone who corrects a translation or refers back to the original for clearification whereas the English maybe missleading.

Given the fact that Ahmed Deedat knows hebrew shows that the interpretation of the bible still stays open! and is not a guarantee of reading it correctly.

Another example is the many hundreds of sects in Islam who all speak and read the quran in arabic, yet they differ on verses in so much that they get entire new believes, again proof that even if you learn the language YOU still can be wrong!

That is what I want some of you to do, but I rarely see any of you doing it except for few, other than that most of you pick your favorite translations to establish your points rather than dialogue with the original. I know sometimes I throw a little here and there about the Bible, and I seldomly talk about the Bible in these threads. Most of all my posts are about Quran and Hadeeth.

See, when i debate Hindu's, they can't ask me to except me to learn Sanskrit (wich is according to their tradition the most holy language on earth, and is spoken in heaven)... unless i'm writing a book or i am academic scholar i feel no obligations to debate in details.

And when i debate the quran, like i did, i rely on all translations, and not just one... just like in questiong suspects... what the most witnessess have in common will be the most correct.

Loki I have no objections to this. If you wish to go into the Bible in its original I would have no problem with it , I think it s agreat idea. As for us and our book you know that no muslims considers the translations the Quran. Even Non Muslim translators have even said the same thing.

I still do not think it is a neccesisty... in the end it's the fault of the Arab language of being so vague that many translations are off track and why so many sects can spring out of simple book...

There was a Christian that spoke Arabic on this forum but he, in my opinion, got fed up and left because of the constant attacks against him by his own just because he was an Arab whom refered to G-d as Alllaah in his own langauge.

i don't know him, but i have no problem with people translating God to Allah... as long as it reffers to Yehova and not to Hubbal

and please, start another threat on the Maryan debate and continue this further there, this is about Quranic Borrowings

[H2O]

yes and the verse also says "His mother was in the state of sincerity, they both ate food." Why does he need to emphasize on Mary's humanhood, when the accusation of her being a God doesn't excist according to you?

Thank you for bringing that to my attention, in the same manner why emphasize her truthfullness ie her chastity in defence which is not a thing of doubt among any proclaimed followers of Jesus ?

Yes since you brought it to my attention it does express of how human they both were when at the same time defending her chasteness, but you dont see the Quran in those verses defending her Son as to his chasteness do you ?

Those verses express how human they were and the chastity of Maryam for those of the people of the book who believe contrary. Thus they Quran is not pointing at one particular group but all those who claim to be Christian Catholics and Non-Cathloics and Also the Jews in their denial of the messengerhood of Jesus and the chastity of Maryam.

O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. 4:171

And nowhere in the Qur'an are Christians admonished for worshipping the Holy Spirit.

In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Al-Masih the son of Maryam. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His Will were to destroy Al-Masih the son of Maryam, his mother, and all, everyone that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."

The above two verses are directed to one particular belief among the people of the book. Maryam is not metioned as to her status but only Jesus and clearifying the Word and the Spirit in association with Allah which is condemned.

of course she is no more then a woman, that is THE christian view... catholics venerate her as a pure and very unique and remarkable woman, but never as a God or a part of the triune nature of God... so again, who is muhammed rebuting? except his own straw men?

Excuse me ? Maryam was never considered part of the triune G-d amongsth Catholics or those of the People of the Book ? You got to be kidding me. What did you criticism tell you about the history of heritical groups, as you call them - likewise as they would call you, whom where People of the Book ?

Where do you see that Muhammed is directing him to the jewish false beliefs? is that your interpretation or cover up?

For the same as you saw those verses where directing Jesus and his mother to be no more than human beings. If a Jew was to read this he would resent Maryam being a Sadeeqah for the same as you resented Jesus being pointed as a mere human being and a messenger. Also Muhammad (s.a.w.) didnt direct anything, those are the words of Alllaah being revealed through him. But respecting what you believe, for what reason would it be emphasised that she was a Sadeeqah when this was not an issue among the followers of Jesus, why wasnt her son also called a Sadeeq ?

Those verse are addressing "the people of the book" not a particular Christian group who dont worship Maryam like another group that does where as the subject manner is not specific but fast.

The emphasis is in general aiming at the beliefs of the Jews and the followers of Jesus ie "The People of the Book"

1) Jesus was no more than a Messenger, rejecting the people of the Book's belief of him being more than a Messenger and the Jewsih beliefs that he was not a Messenger

2) Maryam was a Sadeeqah ie a Chaste and turthful woman who did now wrong in refutation to the The People of the Book who believe she was a whore~prostitute~unchaste woman~fornicator.

3) The Jesus and Maryam were merely human beings as they ate food

This is the muslim perspective not a christian perpective as you have have your own.

Put it simple H20... Muhammed makes the accusation of worshipping two Gods next to Allah...

Yes it is made very simple in Arabic to understand. In 5:116 there is so inference of reference to a trinity. Alllaah is clearily excluded from it.

The Quran does not say " and When Alllaah says" O Jesus did you tell the people to take me and you and your mother as Gods"

The Quran says " Oh Jesus did you tell the people to take me and my mother as ilaahayn other than Allah ?.........

The verse is denoting if Jesus told people to worship him and his mother instead of Alllaah.

Here are the same exact word for word usage of "min duuni" which implies "the exclusion of" and what is meant by "Besides".

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers besides (min duuni) Allah, if your (doubts) are true. 2:23

Knowest thou not that to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth? And besides (min duuni) Allah ye have neither patron nor helper. 2:107

Yet there are men who take (for worship) others besides (min duuni) Allah, as equal (with Allah): they love them as they should love Allah, but those of Faith are overflowing in their love for Allah. If only the unrighteous could see, behold, they would see the Punishment: that to Allah belongs all power, and Allah will strongly enforce the Punishment. 2:165

Not your desires, nor those of the People of the Book (can prevail): whoever works evil, will be requited accordingly. Nor will he find, besides(min duuni) Allah, any protector or helper. 4:123

Say(Muhammad): "Will ye worship, besides (min duuni) Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah, He it is that heareth and knoweth all things." 5:76

Say(Muhammad): "Shall we indeed call on others besides (min duuni) Allah - things that can do us neither good nor harm - and turn on our heels after receiving guidance from Allah, like one whom the evil ones have made into a fool, wandering bewildered through the earth, his friends calling 'Come to us', (vainly) guiding him to the path?" Say: "Allah's guidance is the (only) guidance, and we have been directed to submit ourselves to the Lord of the Worlds.

and of what religion are the people part of mentioned? of Christianity! so what does muhammed think he is rebuting? christianity!

It does not specify, its inference is towards those who worship Jesus and those who worship Maryam. If you pray to any of these people you worship them ie you have deified them. Many Catholics call upon Maryam in prayer and Many other Christians call upon Jesus in their Prayer. Also the Arabic word used "ilaahayn" which is rendered "two gods" denotes false gods.

"ilaahayn" is the dual form of "ilaah" in Arabic that denotes "an object of worship" which is normally rendered "god" or "G-d" that can be applied to the true G-d or a false god in its when it is used in the singular. However in Quranic term being applied to other than Allah in the singular or plural its denotes a false god(s)

how does muhammed or his army while persecuting know to differentiate between a christian and a heretic if they themselves can't even get their facts straight?

Muhammad did not incounter one type of Christian. Quranic verses that I showed you above mention nothing of the status of Maryam when Jesus is mentioned in regard to Jesus being called Alllah or is the son of Allah. The Quran was not revealed at own time. The different aspect it covers is dealing with Muhammads encounters with various types of Christians whom either came to debated or questioned him through out his prophethood.

Well many indeed study the Textus Receptus for proof and reproof, and many translations are being printed, corrected and updated... If i don't trust a translation or a certain chapter and i feel the need to study it thoroughly i would too try and study the original language... yet i have my trust in the translations...

You are obviously confused. If you trusted it then you would have no need to go to the original mereless to choose a particular translation.

Given the fact that Ahmed Deedat knows hebrew shows that the interpretation of the bible still stays open! and is not a guarantee of reading it correctly

In the same sense Jews interpret the old testament different from Christians whom highly rely on translation whereas the Jews do not.

And when i debate the quran, like i did, i rely on all translations, and not just one... just like in questiong suspects... what the most witnessess have in common will be the most correct.

But here again Loki, I do, thats why we clearify what the text means and implies when you all bring it up. I have no objection of a Christian doing this with Hebrew or Greek it will just come to opinion thus cause I understand the nature of translations.

[sardab]

You have no idea about Islam's strict adherence to Unity. We do not have visual depiction of Muhammad anywhere, let alone the mosques. Catholics have statues of both Jesus and Mary in their churches which is considered by Islam as acts of pagan practice or that eventually lead to it.

And you actually debunk your claims that Muhammad borrowed from Christian priests Waraqa and Bahira by saying Muhammad was ignorant of true nature of trinity here.

[Loki]

You have no idea about Islam's strict adherence to Unity. We do not have visual depiction of Muhammad anywhere, let alone the mosques. Catholics have statues of both Jesus and Mary in their churches which is considered by Islam as acts of pagan practice or that eventually lead to it.

By that reasoning then Islam is pagan as well with their black cubicle wich they pray daily too.

Plus not all christians have statues, only catholics, neither do they believe that these statues have any divine power. And are merely used for remembrance.

And you actually debunk your claims that Muhammad borrowed from Christian priests Waraqa and Bahira by saying Muhammad was ignorant of true nature of trinity here.

all his borrowings happend from heretic sources(excluding the OT) because the NT wasn't available in the pensulina, even you agree on that. So it's no wonder, when learning christianity from heretics, that Muhammed got his trinity completly messed up...

[sardab]

By that reasoning then Islam is pagan as well with their black cubicle wich they pray daily too.

Do you believe this yourself? We have mosques to pray in and Kabah to turn our faces to during prayers. Kabah, like mosques, is a means for our worship to God, not His partner in it. Before Kabah, Muslims turned their faces to Jerusalem, later it was decreed to direct to Kabah.

Plus not all christians have statues, only catholics, neither do they believe that these statues have any divine power. And are merely used for remembrance.

Protestanism was not around in the 7th century. Also, when there is God, there is no other person to remember. Thats why we have no depiction of Muhammad.

...from heretic sources(excluding the OT) because the NT wasn't available in the pensulina, even you agree on that.....

I think it is you who messed up here. When you adjust the conditions as you wish, you can create a few amino acids, and then declare "there is no God" too. You are not going from conditions to the result, you are adjusting conditions according to the result in your mind. I said before, there are endless roads, if you do not want to admit. Muhammad was not educated by any Christian or heretic. I invite you to be righteous on this.

Last message in this topic as well.

[Loki]

By that reasoning then Islam is pagan as well with their black cubicle wich they pray daily too.

Do you believe this yourself? We have mosques to pray in and Kabah to turn our faces to during prayers. Kabah, like mosques, is a means for our worship to God, not His partner in it. Before Kabah, Muslims turned their faces to Jerusalem, later it was decreed to direct to Kabah.

We then in that same regard when prayin facing a statue is a means to worship God.

Plus not all christians have statues, only catholics, neither do they believe that these statues have any divine power. And are merely used for remembrance.

Protestanism was not around in the 7th century. Also, when there is God, there is no other person to remember. Thats why we have no depiction of Muhammad.

But Jesus is God, if we deny him a human nature then it would be a form of rejecting Christ's incarnation. The apostles saw how he looked as well and worshiped God when God walked with them.

...from heretic sources(excluding the OT) because the NT wasn't available in the pensulina, even you agree on that.....

I think it is you who messed up here. When you adjust the conditions as you wish, you can create a few amino acids, and then declare "there is no God" too. You are not going from conditions to the result, you are adjusting conditions according to the result in your mind. I said before, there are endless roads, if you do not want to admit. Muhammad was not educated by any Christian or heretic. I invite you to be righteous on this.

What 'you think' is limited to your subjective world view, not to objective arguments and/or facts.

see i am righteous on this, that is why i give you arguments and evidence of plagiarism instead of prejuice.. you are unwilling to be confronted by that or even touching the subject, too afraid that you might learn something you didn't want to know.

Last message in this topic as well.

you can run from your shame, but you can't hide it