WE, US. OUR !!!!!!!!!!

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WE, US. OUR !!!!!!!!!!

Postby H2O » Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:46 am

For those of you that didnt learn this in high school consider this back in school again :lol:

Main Entry: we
Pronunciation: 'wE
Function: pronoun, plural in construction
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English wE; akin to Old High German wir we, Sanskrit vayam
1 : I and the rest of a group that includes me : you and I : you and I and another or others : I and another or others not including you -- used as pronoun of the first person plural; compare I, OUR, OURS, US
2 : I -- used by sovereigns; used by writers to keep an impersonal character

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?b ... nary&va=We

Going to see alot of this from us whom writes and from the speaker in the Quran who is Allah The Sovereign and Lord of All worlds.
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Postby Alpha » Fri Sep 10, 2004 03:16 pm

If this is the case, I do not want to hear another "the Trinity is illogical" argument from any Muslim. If saying "we" and using it to mean something singular can be accepted as logical, don't say God revealing Himself in three distincted beings is illogical (Generally speaking to Muslims, not specifically to H2O).

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Postby webmaster » Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:57 am

Seems Hebrew and even Greek understands it better.

We is plural and I is singular.

Could you please spare us the lesson in the Queen's English which didn't exist when the Quran was written in Arabic!:lol:

Hebrew
Strong's Number: 5168
Transliterated: nachnuw
Phonetic: nakh-noo'
Text: for 587; we: --we.

Strong's Number: 587
Transliterated: 'anachnuw
Phonetic: an-akh'-noo
we: --ourselves, us, we.


Greek
Strong's Number: 2249
Transliterated: hemeis
Phonetic: hay-mice'
Text: nom. plural of 1473; we (only used when emphatic): --us, we (ourselves)

Strong's Number: 1473
Transliterated: ego
Phonetic: eg-o'
Text: a primary pronoun of the first person I (only expressed when emphatic): --I, me. For the other cases and the plural see 1691, 1698, 1700, 2248, 2249, 2254, 2257, etc.

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Postby H2O » Sat Sep 11, 2004 05:33 am

Could you please spare us the lesson in the Queen's English which didn't exist when the Quran was written in Arabic!


Elohim to refer to Yhwh is called the plural of respect or the royal plural. Let me remind you before you go off claiming this is refering to the Trinity is not true, cause the ealiest text called the Yawist text, predates the elohist text which does not use such plurality to refer to G-D.

Thus if you claim elohim is refering to the trinity rather than the singularity and Majesty of G-D alone then indeed there is an alteration to the word of G-D rather than an expressed veneration by the transcribers.

Also the semetic linguistical pluralization of the name Allah in its ancient form" Allahumma" expresses the vocative and the greatness of Majesty written through out the Quran.

Alpha wrote:If this is the case, I do not want to hear another "the Trinity is illogical" argument from any Muslim. If saying "we" and using it to mean something singular can be accepted as logical, don't say God revealing Himself in three distincted beings is illogical


The concept of Trinity is a doctrine and reverence of worship

The Royal plural of respect is about the science of language not doctine or worship.

Also, it is not so much of Majestic speach but it is used to expressed an impersonal character by both writers and sovereigns which exist in all languages.

Webby, to bring to your attention also the word "elohim" made of the hebrew consonant letters Alef, Lamed, He, Mem (ALHM) can be read and pronounced "Allahumma" where the written consonants letters in Arabic are Alif, Laam, Laam, Ha'a, Meem (ALLHM) to read "Allahumma" in Arabic also.
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Postby Truth Seeker-Joshua » Sat Sep 11, 2004 06:03 am

H2O,
Rather than starting new threads trying to prove your mentally superior, why dont you answer the post where members ask you do provide some sort of evidence to your claims.

Godspeed to you
But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed. Isaiah 53:5

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Postby webmaster » Sat Sep 11, 2004 03:15 pm

H2O wrote:Elohim to refer to Yhwh is called the plural of respect or the royal plural. Let me remind you before you go off claiming this is refering to the Trinity is not true, cause the ealiest text called the Yawist text, predates the elohist text which does not use such plurality to refer to G-D.

Thus if you claim elohim is refering to the trinity rather than the singularity and Majesty of G-D alone then indeed there is an alteration to the word of G-D rather than an expressed veneration by the transcribers.


The Yawist or elohist text is a creation of the imagination of man.
To back up such a claim requires proof of the manuscripts which there isn't none.

But there is plenty of Scriptural evidence to support the truth!
Judaism Sacred Scriptures
http://religion-cults.com/Judaism/escript.htm
http://www.imj.org.il/eng/shrine/discovery.html


H2O wrote:Also the semetic linguistical pluralization of the name Allah in its ancient form" Allahumma" expresses the vocative and the greatness of Majesty written through out the Quran.


Again show us proof in any manuscripts dating from 150bc to 100ad as to the word Allah being used anywhere that backs up your claim. We have proof from the Dead Sea Scrolls that Elohim and Yahweh was used in context.
For once show us your proof with Manuscripts!!!!!

Cave IV of the Qumran finds, there are fragments of 382 manuscripts. Every book of the Bible, except Esther, is represented, and same books by many copies. All of these manuscripts are with a remarkable similarity to those Greek and Hebrew we already had!... and they have been qualified as "the most important discovery ever made in Old Testament manuscripts", also very valuables in New Testament studies.

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Postby H2O » Sat Sep 11, 2004 04:51 pm

webmaster wrote:Again show us proof in any manuscripts dating from 150bc to 100ad as to the word Allah being used anywhere that backs up your claim.


This is not what you asked ?

webmaster wrote:Could you please spare us the lesson in the Queen's English which didn't exist when the Quran was written in Arabic!


We produced the semetic pluralization of meem (m) a suffixed ending to nouns which is also the vocative particle of "yaa" in Arabic used as "Allahumma" 5 times in the Quran.

3:23
قُلِ اللَّهُمَّ مَالِكَ الْمُلْكِ تُؤْتِي الْمُلْكَ مَن تَشَاء وَتَنزِعُ الْمُلْكَ مِمَّن تَشَاء وَتُعِزُّ مَن تَشَاء وَتُذِلُّ مَن تَشَاء بِيَدِكَ الْخَيْرُ إِنَّكَ عَلَىَ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ

5:114
قَالَ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ اللَّهُمَّ رَبَّنَا أَنزِلْ عَلَيْنَا مَآئِدَةً مِّنَ السَّمَاء تَكُونُ لَنَا عِيداً لِّأَوَّلِنَا وَآخِرِنَا وَآيَةً مِّنكَ وَارْزُقْنَا وَأَنتَ خَيْرُ الرَّازِقِينَ

8:32
وَإِذْ قَالُواْ اللَّهُمَّ إِن كَانَ هَذَا هُوَ الْحَقَّ مِنْ عِندِكَ فَأَمْطِرْ عَلَيْنَا حِجَارَةً مِّنَ السَّمَاء أَوِ ائْتِنَا بِعَذَابٍ أَلِيمٍ

10:10
دَعْوَاهُمْ فِيهَا سُبْحَانَكَ اللَّهُمَّ وَتَحِيَّتُهُمْ فِيهَا سَلاَمٌ وَآخِرُ دَعْوَاهُمْ أَنِ الْحَمْدُ لِلّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

39:46
قُلِ اللَّهُمَّ فَاطِرَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ عَالِمَ الْغَيْبِ وَالشَّهَادَةِ أَنتَ تَحْكُمُ بَيْنَ عِبَادِكَ فِي مَا كَانُوا فِيهِ يَخْتَلِفُونَ


اللَّهُمَّ ~ Allahumma

No other word in the Arabic language can take the suffixing of "meem" (m) which is a pluralization ending in Hebrew and other semetic languages.

It would be common sense that this form of the name (Allahumma) cleary makes the name not of Arabic origin, but predates it to another language that used such a grammatical system that was aventually Arabicized due to the development of the Arabic language which in reality does not host such a grammatical function with any other Arabic word.
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Postby Apple Pie » Sat Sep 11, 2004 07:46 pm

Greetings All,

I’d like to comment on this…

Elohim to refer to Yhwh is called the plural of respect or the royal plural. Let me remind you before you go off claiming this is refering to the Trinity is not true, cause the ealiest text called the Yawist text, predates the elohist text which does not use such plurality to refer to G-D.

Thus if you claim elohim is refering to the trinity rather than the singularity and Majesty of G-D alone then indeed there is an alteration to the word of G-D rather than an expressed veneration by the transcribers.


Wrong.

“Plural of Majesty” did not exist in the ANE (Ancient Near East), nor in Biblical Hebrew

One of God’s names in scripture, Elohim, is the Hebrew plural form of El, the word for God, or god, in the widest possible sense.

Elohim, used as a plural in scripture, can denote pagan images and the imaginary (or demonic) deities they represent (Deut 4:28, 12:2). Yet in verses such as Gen 1:1, the plural form denotes the singular supreme deity.

The concept of the Uniplural nature of the Biblical God is NOT deduced from just a few “proof texts” but rather from a sustained look at the whole of the Bible.

To this end, more than 500 scripture verses, BOTH OT & NT, can be identified to refer to God as BOTH singular & plural.

The use of the plural Elohim for God, INSTEAD of El (the singular form) WITH singular verbs and pronouns is easily explained.

All related ANE (Ancient Near East) cultures use the singular form "El" without a single case of “Elohim”.

There are NO ANE parallels to support “Plural of Majesty” or the “Royal we”.

The use of plural pronouns, i.e. "Us", in reference to God is a feature of the Hebrew Bible.

Elohim is used of the true God, it is followed by a singular verb; when it is used of false gods, it is followed by the plural verb.

There are places where the word is used of the true God and yet it is followed by a plural verb:

Gen 20:13 And it happened when God made me wander from my father's house, even I said to her, This is your kindness which you do to me: at every place where we come there, say of me, He is my brother.

Gen 35:7 And he built an altar there and called the place Elbethel; because God revealed Himself to him there when he fled from the face of his brother.

2Sa 7:23 And who is like Your people, like Israel, the one nation in the earth that God went out to redeem to be a people for Himself, and to make Himself a name, and to do for You great and fearful things for Your land, before Your people which You redeemed to Yourself from Egypt, from nations and their gods?


The Triune nature of the Creator God can be seen in the same passage here:

Isa 48:12 Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel My called: I am He; I am the First; surely I am the Last.

Isa 48:13 My hand surely founded earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; I called to them, they stood up together.

Isa 48:14 All of you gather and hear: Who among them has declared these things? Jehovah has loved him. He will do His pleasure on Babylon; yea, His arm shall be on the Chaldeans.

Isa 48:15 I, I have spoken; yea, I have called him, I brought him, and he causes his way to prosper.

Isa 48:16 Come near to Me; hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning. From its being, I was there; and now the Lord Jehovah, and His Spirit, has sent Me.


The speaker refers to Himself as the one who is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth.

It is clear that he cannot be speaking of anyone other than God.

But then, in verse 16, the speaker refers to himself using the pronouns of "I" and "me" and then distinguishes himself from two other personalities.

He distinguishes himself from the Lord Jehovah and then from the Spirit of God.

Here is the Tri-unity as clearly defined by the Hebrew Scriptures.


References:

“TWOT”
Archer, Harris, Waltke
pp. 44-45


“Names of God”
J.D. Douglas
p.478






Here are some quotes from Gleason Archer when he was debating Muslims on the John Ankerberg show…

In verse 26 of Genesis 1, we read in connection with God’s creation of man, "Let us make man in our image."

Now, this could not possibly refer to angels joining with God in the matter of furnishing a model for man. It does seem to imply a plurality on the part of the one God. Now, of course, it is true that in later times, certainly in Koranic times, the first person plural pronoun "we" was frequently used in a majestic way. Allah is quoted very often in this fashion. But the thing that is important to observe is that in no ancient language of the B.C. period do you find such usage. If a person means I, he says I, he does not say we. Therefore, on historic linguistic grounds we are forced to say that there is an implication of plurality in the Godhead in this account of man’s creation.

Yes. Well, first of all, I apparently did not communicate successfully to these gentlemen the fact that there is no recorded use in any ancient language in the B.C. period or in the classical Roman or Greek period where the pronoun "we" is ever equivalent to "I." Therefore, the only honest thing you can do in the interpretation of language is to recognize the fact that when the Hebrew used "let us make", it was talking about more than one.


Thanks…
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Postby H2O » Sun Sep 12, 2004 08:00 am

One thing our readers must be informed about is that not all Christians believe that the "plural of majesty" did not exist before the Quran. Many Christians believe the plural of Masjest was used in the Hebrew language, in fact the majority of Christian scholars hold this view.

The most common Hebrew word for a deity is ´elohim whose various connotations are
difficult to render in English translation. Indeed, one must have a good grasp of the history of
Israelite religion to convey the proper sense of the word in a given context. The historical
meaning of the word is almost completely obscured by Bible translations who incorrectly and
unconsciously ascribe to it a monotheistic meaning by consistently translating it as "God." As
a matter of fact, this rendering is correct only in a small number of traditions that emerged
during and soon after the Babylonian exile (587-538 BCE). In most cases, since up to that
time Israelite culture shared the polytheistic world view of the ancient Near East, the word
basically conveyed the notion of one deity among many. Therefore,in the majority of cases, it
should be rendered as "god."

Strangely, ´elohim is a plural noun that is regularly used as the subject of singular verbs. Its
singular form is ´el. Of the several suggestions that have made to account for the anomaly,
three in particular seem most likely. The majority opinion is that the plural form is intended to
communicate the notion of royal power and is so dubbed the "plural of majesty
." Somewhat
similar is the notion that the plural form designates somehow a gathering up of all divine
powers, all ´els concentrated into one divine being as it were, often called a "plural of
intensity." A less popular interpretation that has the advantage of support from Ugaritic text is
the understanding of the form as a "plural of cultic manifestation."

In spite of the popularity of these views, the present writer finds that they have something of a
desperate quality about them that does not illicit conviction. As an alternative, I would suggest
that the plural form ´elohim is actually an elision or contraction of the formulaic phrase, ´el
´elohim, a construction which for this reason is very rare among pre-exilic texts (Ps 50:1).
Understood in this way, the phrase from which ´elohim is derived is still somewhat
ambiguous, for ´el is used both as a personal name for Israel's high god, "El", or as a
common noun, "god." The phrase could then be translated as both "El of gods" and as a
superlative construction meaning, "god of gods" or the "highest god." In point of fact, it seems
to be overly analytical to make the two renderings mutually exclusive, for El was indeed
regarded as the highest god of the pantheon, not only in Israel but in Phoenicia and Aram.
Consequently, ´elohim appears to be a term itself a contraction that is laden with
connotations regarding Israel's namesake supreme deity.

The foregoing understanding of the meaning of ´elohim does not exhaust its biblical usage. In
fact, the connotation attached to it were generated in the distinctive environment of the
northern Palestine that came to be known as the Kingdom of Israel or the Northern tribes.
The term was also favored by an equally distinctive group known as the Levitical priesthood
that had its beginnings with Moses and which was deeply informed by Egyptian ontological
speculation. The author of the creation story of Genesis 1 was a member of this group who
were in fact essentially monotheistic. What is distinctive about the Levites is that they in fact
"demythologized" Egyptian ontology to produce classic monotheism whereas the Egyptian
tradition incorporated the various gods into a transcendental view that saw of all the was as
the dynamic becoming of God. It appears that it was for this reason that they favored the
plural form ´elohim and so interpreted in light of their Egyptian heritage. In this tradition,
'elohim approximates a "plural of intensity."

The most far-reaching implication of these findings is that the Old Testament in translation
severely distorts the religions of ancient Palestine in uniformly translating ´elohim as "God."
While this translation is tolerably accurate for its use in Levitical tradition, it is quite inaccurate
with regard to northern usage where it denoted the high god of a polytheistic pantheon. To
illustrate the profound difference that these consideration make, one need only read the Book
of Psalm and replace the word "God" with "god." The conclusion is inevitable that until the
substitution is made, one will not be able to understand the religion that has inform the
composition of not only this poetic collection, but also of the varieties of ancient Palestinian
religion that produced the majority of the Old Testament writings. In short, to the present we
do not have an accurate translation of the Hebrew Bible. Indeed, our translations and
therefore also our understanding of the Old Testament are fundamentally flawed.





L.M. Barrre, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Hebrew Bible

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-he ... 07671.html


Here are some other related sources contrary to what Christians have posted on this thread.

http://www.reslight.addr.com/elohimplural.html http://www.torahofmessiah.com/elohim.html
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-he ... 12265.html

Now where is "WE" used in the Bible to imply the singular impersonal character of authority ? I could only remember one place, Daniel used it.


Daniel 2:
36 "This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37 You, O king, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; 38 in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.


I am open to to hear some comments on this verse. Daniel included him self in "WE" when it was he alone that addressed the pagan king and whom interpreted his dream to him.

G-D is not part of WE with Daniel, cause Daniel who includes him self in WE was not the interpretor of the dream in which G-D told him the interpretation.

Now it all boils down to this. You have no proof that the plural of majesty was never used before the Quran as your sources are contradicted by those of same equal elite status or higher among Christian and Jewish Scholars, thus rendering your proof as defective inorder to criticize the Quranic use of the Plural of Majesty.
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Postby webmaster » Sun Sep 12, 2004 01:16 pm

No "We" here!

Daniel 2:36
36.
|1836| This {is}
|2493| the dream.
|6591| And its meaning
|0560| to declare, say, speak, tell
|6925| before, in presence of
|4430| the king.

Strong's Number: 560
Transliterated: 'amar
Phonetic: am-ar'
Text: (Aramaic) corresponding to 559: --command, declare, say, speak, tell.

Strong's Number: 559
Transliterated: 'amar
Phonetic: aw-mar'
Text: a primitive root; to say (used with great latitude): --answer, appoint, avouch, bid, boast self, call, certify, challenge, charge, + (at the, give) command(-ment), commune, consider, declare, demand, X desire, determine, X expressly, X indeed, X intend, name, X plainly, promise, publish, report, require, say, speak (against, of), X still, X suppose, talk, tell, term, X that is, X think, use [speech], utter, X verily, X yet.

Strong's Number: 6925
Transliterated: qodam
Phonetic: kod-awm'
Text: (Aramaic) or qdam (Aramaic) (Daniel 7:l3) {ked-awm'}; corresponding to 6924; before: --before, X from, X I (thought), X me, + of, X it pleased, presence.

Strong's Number: 4430
Transliterated: melek
Phonetic: meh'-lek
Text: (Aramaic) corresponding to 4428; a king: --king, royal.






Now it all boils down to this. You have no proof that the plural of majesty was never used before the Quran as your sources are contradicted by those of same equal elite status or higher among Christian and Jewish Scholars, thus rendering your proof as defective inorder to criticize the Quranic use of the Plural of Majesty

We have tons of proof. The entire Old and New Testament plus the Dead Sea Scrolls.

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Postby Liberate » Sun Sep 12, 2004 01:59 pm

For those of you that didnt learn this in high school consider this back in school again

Main Entry: we
Pronunciation: 'wE
Function: pronoun, plural in construction
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English wE; akin to Old High German wir we, Sanskrit vayam
1 : I and the rest of a group that includes me : you and I : you and I and another or others : I and another or others not including you -- used as pronoun of the first person plural; compare I, OUR, OURS, US
2 : I -- used by sovereigns; used by writers to keep an impersonal character

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?b ... nary&va=We

Going to see alot of this from us whom writes and from the speaker in the Quran who is Allah The Sovereign and Lord of All worlds.


If u mean the numerous times I have asked you how many people I am talking to when the content of your posts, grammar and manner either reveal I am speaking to a mutli personality individual or different people.


The keyword in that definition is 'impersonal': not relating to or responsive to individual personS unless you want to sound like a demented capricious lunatic unable to distinguish between the first second and third persons like the author of your koran you will stick to the accepted norms of the english language, or maybe you think you are allah,or come clean about how many people are using your handle.


Daniel 2:
36 "This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37 You, O king, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; 38 in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.


I am open to to hear some comments on this verse. Daniel included him self in "WE" when it was he alone that addressed the pagan king and whom interpreted his dream to him.

G-D is not part of WE with Daniel, cause Daniel who includes him self in WE was not the interpretor of the dream in which G-D told him the interpretation.


Why don't you read the whole chapter in it's proper context and find out that Daniel was not alone when praying about the dream (Daniel 2:17-18)and his companions could have accompanied him when standing in front of the king.

If you are going to start interpreting our scripture for us, I suggest you deal with the 2 by 4 in your eyes (your koran) before you remove the mote in ours.

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Postby H2O » Sun Sep 19, 2004 06:44 pm

Liberate wrote:If u mean the numerous times I have asked you how many people I am talking to when the content of your posts, grammar and manner either reveal I am speaking to a mutli personality individual or different people.


Cause WE like keeping you in delima. This is OUR style of writing, would you like US to explain to you more or do you have a problem telling it is only ONE person that is writing ?

Anyhow, I was given this site that lays down crucial evidence of the use of the plural of majesty even before the time of Muhammad (s.a.w.) with quoted authoritive sources

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/trin02.html
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Postby Kai Hagbard » Tue Sep 28, 2004 07:02 am

Dear brothers
H2O is simply feeling lonely as most Muslims seem to have fleed this forum, thus the need of any plurality. Using 'we' or 'us' is thus simply away to imagine or depict a united force.

I simply dont see what all the hazzle is about

Kai

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Postby some_knowledge » Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:33 pm

In the Name of Allaah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful...

Christians do believe in a Tri-3 God who is defined as God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and they are not Three but One God. Christians try to substantiate their belief with Genesis and such forth indicating that God said...Let 'us' make man in our image... to prove this is the trinity but how far from the truth they are. Christians say One God in theory but mean three gods by practice. In Islam, Muslims believe in One 1 God who is Allaah Alone in theory and in practice.

when Christian starts to read an english translation of the Qur'an, he is surprised to find that Allah always speaks about himself as "we", "we" and "our." Christians begins to think "If Allah is One God, then why all the 'we's" and "us"? Unfortunately, Christians are mistaken with the trinity concept and begin to think that 1+1+1=1 and not 3. Christians then tries to prove to Muslims after having read the translation of Qur'an that he or she has found proof of the trinity in the translation of Qur'aan.

This is far from the truth...In both Arabic and Hebrew, there are two types of 'we'. One is the plural pronoun used by English speaking countries (such as "we rode in the car together," "we all come from the same country"...etc.). The second is the plural of RESPECT. 'We' is used in the Qur'an when describing Allah Almighty in the second sense. It is used to magnify and glorify God as well as to display respect and humility to our Creator.

This system is not restricted to the Arabs alone. The Arabs are a Semitic tribe, and their Semitic cousins, the Jews, also use the same system to refer to God. In the Old Testament, the Jews refer to God as "Elohiym" {el-o-heem}. "Elohiym" is the plural form of "'elowahh" {el-o'-ah}, which means "god." Jews do not pray to a "Trinity," even though their book refers to God in the plural form. If you didn't know Arabic, Urdu, and French use of the word "We" in reference to God Almighty.
The noble Qur'an, Al-Bakarah(2):255


"Your God is One God; there is no God save Him, the Compassionate, the Merciful."


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Postby Alpha » Mon Oct 18, 2004 05:23 pm

some_knowledge wrote:Unfortunately, Christians are mistaken with the trinity concept and begin to think that 1+1+1=1 and not 3.


http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... ical#42481

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Postby H2O » Thu Nov 25, 2004 01:45 pm

For the interest of our spectators this topic seems to have been rebounded on a prexisting thread before we started this one.

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=1171
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Postby John 10:10 » Fri Dec 03, 2004 05:30 pm

The main problem unbelievers have with accepting the revelation of the Bible New Testament Scriptures and the Trinity - God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit - deals with exactly who Jesus was and who is He now?

John 1:1-14 reveals that the Word of God was in the beginning with God and was God, and that the Word of God became flesh. This revelation is also confirmed in Phil 2:5-11 where Paul declares Jesus existed in the "form of God" before His incarnation and birth through Mary's womb.

Those who come to a realization of who they are - a sinner, lost and separated from God - and are willing to repent as Peter declared in Acts 2:38 have no problem with the Trinity, or with the Trinity being One God.

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Jesus Christ is the eternal Lord Jesus Christ. One chooses to enter into the kingdom of God through repentance (Acts 2:38) via the "new birth" (John 3:5-7), thereby receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you Believed"? (Acts 19:2)

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Postby H2O » Sat Dec 04, 2004 08:47 am

John 1:1-14 reveals that the Word of God was in the beginning with God and was God, and that the Word of God became flesh. This revelation is also confirmed in Phil 2:5-11 where Paul declares Jesus existed in the "form of God" before His incarnation and birth through Mary's womb.


Now what does this have to do with the topic of this thread ?

I suppose its in your nature. Better yet what do the greek words Hotheos, Tontheon, and Theos mean in greek and their significance since you brought up the topic cans you ellaberate on this ?
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Postby (Omega) » Tue Feb 01, 2005 03:55 am

H2O wrote:
John 1:1-14 reveals that the Word of God was in the beginning with God and was God, and that the Word of God became flesh. This revelation is also confirmed in Phil 2:5-11 where Paul declares Jesus existed in the "form of God" before His incarnation and birth through Mary's womb.


Now what does this have to do with the topic of this thread ?

I suppose its in your nature. Better yet what do the greek words Hotheos, Tontheon, and Theos mean in greek and their significance since you brought up the topic cans you ellaberate on this ?


John 1:1 - In{en}the beginning{arche}was{en}the Word{logos}, and{kai}the Word{logos}was{en}with{pros}God{theos}, and{kai}the Word{logos}was{en}God{theos}

ton theon:a god
ho theos:supreme God

The Biased NWT:John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a God .
Interesting how the translators purposely translated theos to ton theon

God Bless!

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Postby TwentyTwenty » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:31 pm

Just wondering : was there more than ONE Moses in exodus 7 :1?

א וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֶל-מֹשֶׁה, רְאֵה נְתַתִּיךָ אֱלֹהִים לְפַרְעֹה; וְאַהֲרֹן אָחִיךָ, יִהְיֶה נְבִיאֶךָ.


http://www.jcsm.org/StudyCenter/kjvstro ... 2.htm#S430

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Postby (Omega) » Tue Apr 05, 2005 01:45 am

TwentyTwenty wrote:Just wondering : was there more than ONE Moses in exodus 7 :1?

א וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֶל-מֹשֶׁה, רְאֵה נְתַתִּיךָ אֱלֹהִים לְפַרְעֹה; וְאַהֲרֹן אָחִיךָ, יִהְיֶה נְבִיאֶךָ.


http://www.jcsm.org/StudyCenter/kjvstro ... 2.htm#S430


And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. (Exodus 7:1)

Do you or do you not see the difference between the word LORD and Moses? If the word "Elohiym" in this verse is referring to God Almighty then the LORD would not be God, however Moses is referred to as "a god" Not the God or God Almighty. Furthermore Moses is called a god by the LORD GOD, because men who were appointed to judge the people were also called gods. You have a god spelled in lower case and the LORD which is all capitalized.

God Bless!

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Postby H2O » Tue Apr 05, 2005 04:16 am

Omega wrote:Do you or do you not see the difference between the word LORD and Moses? If the word "Elohiym" in this verse is referring to God Almighty then the LORD would not be God, however Moses is referred to as "a god" Not the God or God Almighty. Furthermore Moses is called a god by the LORD GOD, because men who were appointed to judge the people were also called gods. You have a god spelled in lower case and the LORD which is all capitalized.


That is not true. in Exo 7:1 the word "elohim" is applied Moses the translators, of course Christian, deviated from the actual word.

7:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I make you as God (Elohim) to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.

http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi ... nt=na&sr=1



Do your self a favor Omega go click on the link and look at what the hebrew says. To translate Elohim as a god is a gross error. But hardly any of you understand the significance of it.
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Postby Aburaees » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:13 am

H2O wrote:
Omega wrote:Do you or do you not see the difference between the word LORD and Moses? If the word "Elohiym" in this verse is referring to God Almighty then the LORD would not be God, however Moses is referred to as "a god" Not the God or God Almighty. Furthermore Moses is called a god by the LORD GOD, because men who were appointed to judge the people were also called gods. You have a god spelled in lower case and the LORD which is all capitalized.


That is not true. in Exo 7:1 the word "elohim" is applied Moses the translators, of course Christian, deviated from the actual word.

7:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I make you as God (Elohim) to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.

http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi ... nt=na&sr=1



Do your self a favor Omega go click on the link and look at what the hebrew says. To translate Elohim as a god is a gross error. But hardly any of you understand the significance of it.




H2O,

You speak Greek, I'm assuming that you have knowledge of Biblical Greek and I suspect that you also have some knowledge of Biblical Hebrew.

I've noticed that some translators make Exodus 7:1 say "a god" when referring to Moses, whilst making John 1:1 say "God" when referring to Jesus.

I've also noticed that conversely some people say that Exodus 7:1 should read "God" whilst John 1:1 should read "a god".

Are any of these positions consistent with respect to the grammar of the original, or should they have made up their mind one way or the other and rendered them both to read "God" or both to read "a god"?

Or are they indeed two different types of dispute altogether?

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Postby Aburaees » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:14 am

H2O wrote:
Omega wrote:Do you or do you not see the difference between the word LORD and Moses? If the word "Elohiym" in this verse is referring to God Almighty then the LORD would not be God, however Moses is referred to as "a god" Not the God or God Almighty. Furthermore Moses is called a god by the LORD GOD, because men who were appointed to judge the people were also called gods. You have a god spelled in lower case and the LORD which is all capitalized.


That is not true. in Exo 7:1 the word "elohim" is applied Moses the translators, of course Christian, deviated from the actual word.

7:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I make you as God (Elohim) to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.

http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi ... nt=na&sr=1



Do your self a favor Omega go click on the link and look at what the hebrew says. To translate Elohim as a god is a gross error. But hardly any of you understand the significance of it.




H2O,

You speak Greek, I'm assuming that you have knowledge of Biblical Greek and I suspect that you also have some knowledge of Biblical Hebrew.

I've noticed that some translators make Exodus 7:1 say "a god" when referring to Moses, whilst making John 1:1 say "God" when referring to Jesus.

I've also noticed that conversely some people say that Exodus 7:1 should read "God" whilst John 1:1 should read "a god".

Are any of these positions consistent with respect to the grammar of the original, or should they have made up their mind one way or the other and rendered them both to read "God" or both to read "a god"?

Or are they indeed two different types of dispute altogether?

.

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Postby (Omega) » Tue Apr 05, 2005 01:39 pm

H2O wrote:
Omega wrote:Do you or do you not see the difference between the word LORD and Moses? If the word "Elohiym" in this verse is referring to God Almighty then the LORD would not be God, however Moses is referred to as "a god" Not the God or God Almighty. Furthermore Moses is called a god by the LORD GOD, because men who were appointed to judge the people were also called gods. You have a god spelled in lower case and the LORD which is all capitalized.


That is not true. in Exo 7:1 the word "elohim" is applied Moses the translators, of course Christian, deviated from the actual word.

7:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I make you as God (Elohim) to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.

http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi ... nt=na&sr=1



Do your self a favor Omega go click on the link and look at what the hebrew says. To translate Elohim as a god is a gross error. But hardly any of you understand the significance of it.


The translators translated it from "God" to "a god" because they couldn't see the reasoning as why Moses would be called God. The problem here is not that Moses is "God" but the the LORD who is is clearly demonstrated as the TRUE GOD(Caps), made Moses "AS" God to the Pharaoh. God making Moses as God and being God are not the same, Moses had been made as ruler and judge over the Pharaoh, not literally God Himself as you can clearly see the distinction within the verse.

God Bless!

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Postby Liberate » Tue Apr 05, 2005 02:34 pm

Omega wrote:Do you or do you not see the difference between the word LORD and Moses? If the word "Elohiym" in this verse is referring to God Almighty then the LORD would not be God, however Moses is referred to as "a god" Not the God or God Almighty. Furthermore Moses is called a god by the LORD GOD, because men who were appointed to judge the people were also called gods. You have a god spelled in lower case and the LORD which is all capitalized.


That is not true. in Exo 7:1 the word "elohim" is applied Moses the translators, of course Christian, deviated from the actual word.



Do your self a favor Omega go click on the link and look at what the hebrew says. To translate Elohim as a god is a gross error. But hardly any of you understand the significance of it.


Ok H20 humor us and tell us the conspiracy theory of that verse regardless of wether Moses is like God to pharoah or like a god to pharoah what exactly is your point? Or is this like your many posts without a point? Are you trying to prove world wide corruption of biblical scripture with your own slant of Moses being a god or like God to the pharoah?? Is this the best you can do? have you ever thought that the only thing you could find against the bible is having to stoop to out of context interpretations of biblical verses (mostly old testament) and using semantic arguments to claim what exactly? that Moses was a a god unto pharoah and somehow this nullifies the religions of christianity and judiasm in one bowling ball? ever thought that your allah prays and grants salvation to his prophet can more objectively be taken to it's logical conclusion that your allah doesn't exist and is no more than mohammed's alter ego? ever wondered all your arguments with christianity have to do with semantics never with the message? you have to result to semantic arguments to have anything against the bible but the christian only has to read your koran to see adultery, fornication, incest, rape, murder, and hate being preached from your merciful allah leaving followers to perform acrobatic feats of apologetics that simply defies our God given common sense of what is right and wrong, that little 9 yr old girls have reached maturity and are ok to have sex with 60 yr old men, that women were more than happy to have sex on the same day with the butcher of their husbands, fathers and relatives, that a wife gets jealous because her husband smells of honey instead of the more rational explanation in the ahadith that he has been sleeping with someone else... it is a shame all you can argue against christianity is out of context semantic interpretations with the hope that the house of cards will come down based on this semantic argument alone, am afraid it doesn't work like that in christianity. On the other hand if the koran is the eternal word of allah written since the beginning of the age "fight the unbelievers even if they be people of the book" has to hold true for all time and all places or your koran is not eternal your god is not true and your prophet is a liar, the 2 by 4 in your eyes is enormous yet you will attempt to take out the mote in our eyes with patronising pseudo- scholarship of a language we both know you don't know.

H2O,

You speak Greek, I'm assuming that you have knowledge of Biblical Greek and I suspect that you also have some knowledge of Biblical Hebrew.


I am afraid H2O from his own confession doesn't speak a word of greek, koine greek, hebrew or aramaic although he says he is of greek heritage he actually thinks he is an 'arab' he calls the arabic language "our language", when asked for his qualifications in arabic to patronise everybody who confronts him even fellow muslims he says his teacher was an al-azhar graduate ( we are not interested in your teacher but your qualifications) to this day H2O has not told us what qualifies him to contradict al-azhar university's well known stance on the koran (H2O like many westernised muslims choses to limit certain verses to the context of the 7th century in violation of what al-azhar says we all know which ones these verses are, it cannot be limited to the context of the 7th century if it does then islam can also be limited to the 7th century and has no moral or spiritual relevance to the 21st century), we have to assume his qualifications in arabic are null and void surely he would want to assure everyone that he has the onus on the truth and interpretation of the quran which seems to conflict every other muslim.

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Postby H2O » Tue Apr 05, 2005 09:09 pm

Aburaees wrote:I've noticed that some translators make Exodus 7:1 say "a god" when referring to Moses, whilst making John 1:1 say "God" when referring to Jesus.

I've also noticed that conversely some people say that Exodus 7:1 should read "God" whilst John 1:1 should read "a god".

Are any of these positions consistent with respect to the grammar of the original, or should they have made up their mind one way or the other and rendered them both to read "God" or both to read "a god"?


To determine the actual meaning of a word the wise thing to do is to look at its numerous usage and how it is used to determined an authentic meaning.

For a fact the Hebrew word "Elohim" which is plural of "eloahh" has three given interpretations

1) When applied to the Creator it means "G-d" expressing the plural of majesty

2) When applied to other than the Creator it stickly means "gods"

3) When applied to the Creator the plural "Elohim" is making reference to the Christian trinity whom reject "#1)" the plural of majesty concept. Thus it maintains the singular meaning like the plural of majesty but expressing the truine G-d in the singular according to christian dogma.

A)It is obvious those who translate "Elohim" as "a god" in Exo 7:1 are trinitarians as it would be inconsistane with their beliefs to render "Elohim" as "G-d" applied to Moses which would run into conflict as Moses is only one Person but called ascribed to in the plural.

B)As for those translators who render "Elohim" as "G-d" these are those who believe it to be the plural of majesty. When applied to Moses it implied also the plural of Majest or Respect as Moses came with powers of Majesty like a god to the Egyptians whom was also feared like a god.

As for the Gospel according to John 1:1 there is serious grammar at hand dealing with nomative and accusative readings.

en arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos houtos en en arche pros ton theon

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (ton theon), and the Word was God (theos), the same (?) was in the beginning with God (ton theon). [Gospel According to John 1:1]

Now before we go into the greek lets just look at this context and the inference it is alluding to.

The Logos is said here to have been with Ton Theon (G-d or literally "the god") automatically this phrase expresses two intenties as one being with the other in the begining as the context expresses. The next phrase "..and the word was God (theos).." followed by "..the same (?) was in the beginning with God (ton theon).

Grammatically this is expressing two gods were in the begining whereas the word was of a lesser god whom was with the supreme G-d.

As for Christian interpretation it is taken as speaking about one and the same G-d.

As for the geek word "Theos" being used in the context without the article "the" ie "ton" or "ho" its justification of its absents is that there was no reason for it grammatically but if this is true then why bring it back into the last phrase "..the same (?) was in the beginning with God (ton theon)"

One thing I would agree is that "theos" does not always mean "a god". It can means also "G-d" depending on the context it is being used in. In the context about grammatically speaking it is denoting another god.

And yes, the Gospel According to John 1:1 is a completely different issue from Exo 7:1 and have no relation to each other in my opinion.

Loki wrote:The translators translated it from "God" to "a god" because they couldn't see the reasoning as why Moses would be called God. The problem here is not that Moses is "God" but the the LORD who is is clearly demonstrated as the TRUE GOD(Caps), made Moses "AS" God to the Pharaoh. God making Moses as God and being God are not the same, Moses had been made as ruler and judge over the Pharaoh, not literally God Himself as you can clearly see the distinction within the verse.


"AS" <~~~~~Does not exist in the hebrew which would have been properly supported by the Hebrew word "kemow". Can you please explain to me how "as" was introduced here and for what reason. I already know what it is, I want to see what you are going to say hoping you will start to realize the reality of defectiveness in translations to be suited to be the word of G-d from its original.
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Postby Liberate » Wed Apr 06, 2005 01:40 am

Aburaees wrote:I've noticed that some translators make Exodus 7:1 say "a god" when referring to Moses, whilst making John 1:1 say "God" when referring to Jesus.

I've also noticed that conversely some people say that Exodus 7:1 should read "God" whilst John 1:1 should read "a god".

Are any of these positions consistent with respect to the grammar of the original, or should they have made up their mind one way or the other and rendered them both to read "God" or both to read "a god"?


To determine the actual meaning of a word the wise thing to do is to look at its numerous usage and how it is used to determined an authentic meaning.


For a fact the Hebrew word "Elohim" which is plural of "eloahh" has three given interpretations

1) When applied to the Creator it means "G-d" expressing the plural of majesty

2) When applied to other than the Creator it stickly means "gods"

3) When applied to the Creator the plural "Elohim" is making reference to the Christian trinity whom reject "#1)" the plural of majesty concept. Thus it maintains the singular meaning like the plural of majesty but expressing the truine G-d in the singular according to christian dogma.

A)It is would be obvious those who translate "Elohim" as "a god" in Exo 7:1 are trinitarians as it would be inconsistane with their beliefs to render "Elohim" as "G-d" applied to Moses which would run into conflict as Moses is on one Person but called ascribed to in the plural.

B)As for those translators who render "Elohim" as "G-d" these are those who believe it to be the plural of majesty. When applied to Moses it implied also the plural of Majest or Respect as Moses came with powers of Majesty like a god to the Egyptians whom was also feared like a god.


As for the Gospel according to John 1:1 there is serious grammar at hand dealing with nomative and accusative readings.

en arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos houtos en en arche pros ton theon



In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (ton theon), and the Word was God (theos), the same was in the beginning with God (ton theon). [Gospel According to John 1:1]


Now before we go into the greek lets just look as this context and the inference it is alluding to.

The Logos is said here to have been with Ton Theon (G-d or literally "the god") automatically this phrase expresses two intenties as one being with the other in the begining as the context expresses. The next phrase "..and the word was God (theos).." followed by "..the same (?) was in the beginning with God (ton theon).


Hello H2O my dear friend seems you made a little mistake to reveal your scholarship in biblical greek, see the word for 'with' in greek is 'pros' and when used in the phrase "pros ton theos" it means "with regards to" or " with reference to" the accusative form of the subject case, " ie "pros ton theos" is being the direct object of the verb for "ho logos", the first phrase of "ho logos" is quite explicit that the Word is singular, masculine and nominative, the imperfect tense that starts of that sentence makes it quite clear that this is on going in other words eternal relationship.

Grammatically this is expressing two gods were in the begining whereas the word was of a lesser god whom was with the supreme G-d.


Ie Jesus is God

As for Christian interpretation it is taken as speaking about one and the same G-d.


Ie Jesus is God

As for the geek word "Theos" being used in the context without the article "the" ie "ton" or "ho" its justification of its absents is that there was no reason for it grammatically but if this is true then why bring it back into the last phrase "..the same (?) was in the beginning with God (ton theon)"


Your greek scholarship is beginning to show; again because this is accusative (the object of the verb) the first mention of theos is the object and the second mention of theos is the subject of the verb, there is no definite article because the noun is known from the context, the writer is very clear on what he wants to convey, there is no ton or ho theo in the final phrase of theo because it simply is not in the greek text either (have a read from your copy and paste yourself it's not in there what exactly are you arguing about?) wait a minute are you paraphrasing Ahmed Deedat's article??

One thing I would agree is that "theos" does not always mean "a god". It can means also "G-d" depending on the context it is being used in. In the context about grammatically speaking it is denoting another god.


Good grief there is no indefinite article in greek, neither can "a God" be rendered from it's context. (The jehovah witnesses are the ones who chose to translate it as a god making complete mockery of the context since they do not believe Jesus is God but the angel Michael)

Loki wrote:The translators translated it from "God" to "a god" because they couldn't see the reasoning as why Moses would be called God. The problem here is not that Moses is "God" but the the LORD who is is clearly demonstrated as the TRUE GOD(Caps), made Moses "AS" God to the Pharaoh. God making Moses as God and being God are not the same, Moses had been made as ruler and judge over the Pharaoh, not literally God Himself as you can clearly see the distinction within the verse.


"AS" <~~~~~Does not exist in the hebrew which would have been properly supported by the Hebrew word "kemow". Can you please explain to me how "as" was introduced here and for what reason. I already know what it is, I want to see what you are going to say hoping you will start to realize the reality of defectiveness in translations to be suited to be the word of G-d from its original.


Help us out here buddy let's cut to the chase the bible is corrupt I think your entire religion is wrong because I don't think this word should be translated like this ( forget that my religion has no context and infinitely has this problem of translation) here is islam with jihad upon the people of the book until they pay the jizya in willing submission from the pedofile, rapist, adulterer, fornicator et al you can join this cultural imperial state imposing it's ridiculous legalism on you, see I use to be a christian then a jew then I became a muslim you can do it too, why don't you do it? You will get 70 houris (where the root word whores come from) why don't you do it?? don't you know that the raping megalomaniac lunatic was the best example of mankind for all eternity and a mercy???

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Postby H2O » Wed Apr 06, 2005 03:49 am

H2O wrote:As for the geek word "Theos" being used in the context without the article "the" ie "ton" or "ho" its justification of its absents is that there was no reason for it grammatically but if this is true then why bring it back into the last phrase "..the same (?) was in the beginning with God (ton theon)"


Liberate wrote:..there is no ton or ho theo in the final phrase of theo because it simply is not in the greek text either (have a read from your copy and paste yourself it's not in there what exactly are you arguing about?) wait a minute are you paraphrasing Ahmed Deedat's article??



1:1

In the beginning was (5713) the Word, and the Word was (5713) with God, and the Word was (5713) God.

En arxh hn (5713) o logov, kai o logov hn (5713) prov ton qeon, kai qeov hn (5713) o logov.



1:2

The same was (5713) in the beginning with God.

outov hn (5713) en arxh prov ton qeon.

http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi ... ng=1&ncc=7

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Postby (Omega) » Wed Apr 06, 2005 04:41 am

HI H2O! :)

Liberate wrote:
Loki wrote:The translators translated it from "God" to "a god" because they couldn't see the reasoning as why Moses would be called God. The problem here is not that Moses is "God" but the the LORD who is is clearly demonstrated as the TRUE GOD(Caps), made Moses "AS" God to the Pharaoh. God making Moses as God and being God are not the same, Moses had been made as ruler and judge over the Pharaoh, not literally God Himself as you can clearly see the distinction within the verse.


Loki, who is another person wrote the SAME EXACT WORDS as me! :lol:

(Omega) wrote:The translators translated it from "God" to "a god" because they couldn't see the reasoning as why Moses would be called God. The problem here is not that Moses is "God" but the the LORD who is is clearly demonstrated as the TRUE GOD(Caps), made Moses "AS" God to the Pharaoh. God making Moses as God and being God are not the same, Moses had been made as ruler and judge over the Pharaoh, not literally God Himself as you can clearly see the distinction within the verse.

God Bless!


God is a class of being just as man and woman are classified. God is not to be identified as a personal name but as a class of being. The only proper noun or personal name given to God is Jehovah, not GOD.

Genesis 1:26 - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Adam and Eve are both classified as man when the LORD made MAN in His image, i.e., a class of being. kai ho logos en pros ton theon{the word was with the God} as a class of being, The Son and His eternal subsistence with "pros" the Father. Not a separate being, and the word "was" still the eternal, GOD. He was in the truest sense identical with God.
The preposition pro\j, in the accusative case not only indicates towards or direction, but is also used often in the sense of as a living union and communion, the NT demonstrates this on many occasions. The divine Word not only dwelled with the Father from all of eternity, but was actively in relation and communion with Him. On another note, even if it was rendered as "a god" it still would not make a difference at all, why?

EXAMPLE:

"A man is a leader of a nation" and saying definitely: "That man is the leader of his nation".Titus 2:5 - To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. The words "man" and "leader" and "nation" are defined identically, although used definitely or indefinitely. This is also true in John 1:1, and every other place in the Bible! So indefinitely saying "The Word is a God" is very much identical as to saying definitely: "The Word is the God".

God Bless!
Last edited by (Omega) on Wed Apr 06, 2005 04:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Aineo » Wed Apr 06, 2005 04:42 am

H2O, if you really do know Greek then you know that according to Greek grammar "ho" is not required to show the last phrase of John 1:1 is correctly translated "and the word was God". Some scholars insist the last phrase would be better translated "and the word was divine". But that is simply a matter of word choice and means the same thing. The Word was with God in the beginning and the Word is God. That H2O is what the Greek plainly states.

As to elohim, it can also mean messenger, judge, angel, and etc. So you argument concerning how elohim is used in the OT only shows your ignorance.
OT:430
'elohiym --



1) (plural)
a) rulers, judges
b) divine ones
c) angels
d) gods
2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
a) God, a god, a goddess
b) god-like one
c) works or special possessions of God
d) the one true God
e) God
(from The Online Bible Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright (c)1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research.)
Now there is one question I have asked you Muslims who are tying to educated us Christians about our faith. Who was Abraham talking to in Genesis 18? The Hebrew uses the Hebrew covenant name for God for the individual that talked with Abraham. Now since no man has seen God who was Abraham entertaining?

The Trinity is prefigured in the OT and no matter how hard it may be for you to accept it is true.
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Postby H2O » Wed Apr 06, 2005 05:13 am

Aineo wrote:H2O, if you really do know Greek then you know that according to Greek grammar "ho" is not required to show the last phrase of John 1:1 is correctly translated "and the word was God". Some scholars insist the last phrase would be better translated "and the word was divine". But that is simply a matter of word choice and means the same thing. The Word was with God in the beginning and the Word is God. That H2O is what the Greek plainly states.


I think you need to go back and read our last post above more carefully cause your ranting about something I am not even emphasising about.

Aineo wrote:As to elohim, it can also mean messenger, judge, angel, and etc. So you argument concerning how elohim is used in the OT only shows your ignorance.


The application is to a single individual not to multiple people. My post above was based on the general etymolgical meaning and singular usage of the word. I listed the primary meanings and diction. The application of Elohim to Moses a singular person puts the deffinition under #2 of your quoted source.

It is not a matter of ignorance it was a matter of convienience to stick to the topic of the discussion where the focus is at. I have never dialogued with you before to determine what is neccessary or not to use. But as time flows I will become more aquinted with your expectations. :wink:

Aineo wrote: Now there is one question I have asked you Muslims who are tying to educated us Christians about our faith.


Oh great but you all think you can educate us in our faith huh ? If you dont want us to educate you in your religion then stop trying to educate us in ours.

Lets make it simple here, what we say about the bible is in the Islamic perspective of opinon and what you all say about the Quran or Hadeeth is in the Christian perspective of opinion. Fair enough ?

Lets see how many of you can agree to this, some of you might not be able to cause your zeal and prejudice wont allow you to.
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Postby Liberate » Wed Apr 06, 2005 01:26 pm

H2O wrote:
H2O wrote:As for the geek word "Theos" being used in the context without the article "the" ie "ton" or "ho" its justification of its absents is that there was no reason for it grammatically but if this is true then why bring it back into the last phrase "..the same (?) was in the beginning with God (ton theon)"


Liberate wrote:..there is no ton or ho theo in the final phrase of theo because it simply is not in the greek text either (have a read from your copy and paste yourself it's not in there what exactly are you arguing about?) wait a minute are you paraphrasing Ahmed Deedat's article??



1:1

In the beginning was (5713) the Word, and the Word was (5713) with God, and the Word was (5713) God.

En arxh hn (5713) o logov, kai o logov hn (5713) prov ton qeon, kai qeov hn (5713) o logov.



1:2

The same was (5713) in the beginning with God.

outov hn (5713) en arxh prov ton qeon.

http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi ... ng=1&ncc=7



Ok H2O I should have guessed you were going to fall into that hole, you do know what a phrase is don't you? it is obvious this is not your argument, see when you said:

As for the geek word "Theos" being used in the context without the article "the" ie "ton" or "ho" its justification of its absents is that there was no reason for it grammatically...


which part of the sentence were you referring to?

en arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos houtos en en arche pros ton theon

and when I said

there is no definite article because the noun is known from the context, the writer is very clear on what he wants to convey, there is no ton or ho theo in the final phrase of theo because it simply is not in the greek text either (have a read from your copy and paste yourself it's not in there what exactly are you arguing about?)...
which part of the sentence do you think I am talking about? Do you know what a phrase is?? Do you know a phrase is limited to a sentence and not a completely different sentence?

Let me elaborate for you what you have just done:

John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (en arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos) There is no definite article in the final theos in this sentence because the noun has been defined from the context (pros ton theon "with God" is acting as the object of the verb)in other words the Word is with God and the Word was God ie the subject and object are of the same essence and there is still no ton or ho in the final case of theos in this phrase because the definite article of the object of the verb has already been defined in "pros ton theon"

John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. (houtos en en arche pros ton theon) This is a completely different sentence and the noun has not been defined from the context hence the need for the definite article. You are basing your argument on a completely different sentence.

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Postby Aineo » Wed Apr 06, 2005 03:39 pm

H2O, I have not attempted to teach you about your religion and find your appealing to words a bit odd when Muslims refuse to address specific question regarding the Qur'an. For example this thread:
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=6466

Now in regard to John 1:1 you did bring up the Greek of that verse and then posted a site you think supports your contention, which is false. So if you don't want to address what you bring up then don't bring it up.
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Postby H2O » Fri Apr 08, 2005 04:33 am

Aineo wrote:H2O, I have not attempted to teach you about your religion and find your appealing to words a bit odd when Muslims refuse to address specific question regarding the Qur'an. For example this thread:
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=6466


I will address that thread, but first I would appologise to all of not coming back with a sooner response. I got a little distracted on some other threads. I will make my response to this one first priority then to your thread Aineo. I see that you all did not pay attention to my posts above and interpreted something else different from what I was implying, but I will explain late. Time for some zZzZzZzZzZzZzZzs
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Postby H2O » Sat Apr 09, 2005 02:25 am

Oops sorry i couldnt help getting my hands into some more threads before coming here. Geesh I think I am addicted to debating or something....lol

Ehm !

Liberate wrote:Hello H2O my dear friend seems you made a little mistake to reveal your scholarship in biblical greek, see the word for 'with' in greek is 'pros' and when used in the phrase "pros ton theos" it means "with regards to" or " with reference to" the accusative form of the subject case, " ie "pros ton theos" is being the direct object of the verb for "ho logos", the first phrase of "ho logos" is quite explicit that the Word is singular, masculine and nominative, the imperfect tense that starts of that sentence makes it quite clear that this is on going in other words eternal relationship.


pros <~~~~ Has more than one meaning depending on how it is used in a context

1) to the advantage of
2) at, near, by
3) to, towards, with, with regard to

http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=4314


But your interpretation is respected, but however an interpretation does not reflect the reality of what that preposition actually means in that verse as far as I am concerned.


Liberate wrote:
H2O wrote:As for the geek word "Theos" being used in the context without the article "the" ie "ton" or "ho" its justification of its absents is that there was no reason for it grammatically but if this is true then why bring it back into the last phrase "..the same (?) was in the beginning with God (ton theon)"



Your greek scholarship is beginning to show; again because this is accusative (the object of the verb) the first mention of theos is the object and the second mention of theos is the subject of the verb, there is no definite article because the noun is known from the context, the writer is very clear on what he wants to convey, there is no ton or ho theo in the final phrase of theo because it simply is not in the greek text either (have a read from your copy and paste yourself it's not in there what exactly are you arguing about?) wait a minute are you paraphrasing Ahmed Deedat's article??


Aineo wrote:H2O, if you really do know Greek then you know that according to Greek grammar "ho" is not required to show the last phrase of John 1:1 is correctly translated "and the word was God". Some scholars insist the last phrase would be better translated "and the word was divine". But that is simply a matter of word choice and means the same thing. The Word was with God in the beginning and the Word is God. That H2O is what the Greek plainly states.


It is obvious the last phrase I am speaking about is different fromt eh last phrase you all are talking about.

In the greek " en arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos houtos en en arche pros ton theon " is together as one sentence, please refer to your greek text. I am focused on the greek and you all are still playing with the English.

The last phrase in the greek text is "...houtos en en arche pros ton theon ". Thus is why Liberate I responed to you with the text and reference.

I made no primary arguement of "..kai theos en ho logos.." I said it justification was :

As for the geek word "Theos" being used in the context without the article "the" ie "ton" or "ho" its justification of its absents is that there was no reason for it grammatically ....


All you two, Liberate and Aineo, did is ellaborated over the same thing I mentioned about the word.

Based upon this I said in continuation "...but if this is true then why bring it back into the last phrase "..the same (?) was in the beginning with God (ton theon)" "

For the same Justification applied to "theos" with out the deffinite article it should have been applied the same to the last phrase in the context of the greek, not the Englsih, if the aurthor understood it as the one and same G-d ?

Liberate wrote:John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. (houtos en en arche pros ton theon) This is a completely different sentence and the noun has not been defined from the context hence the need for the definite article. You are basing your argument on a completely different sentence.


In English they are per how the translators seperated them by the numbering of the verses, but in the Greek they are one complete sentence in context together.
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Postby Liberate » Sat Apr 09, 2005 10:08 pm

Liberate wrote:Hello H2O my dear friend seems you made a little mistake to reveal your scholarship in biblical greek, see the word for 'with' in greek is 'pros' and when used in the phrase "pros ton theos" it means "with regards to" or " with reference to" the accusative form of the subject case, " ie "pros ton theos" is being the direct object of the verb for "ho logos", the first phrase of "ho logos" is quite explicit that the Word is singular, masculine and nominative, the imperfect tense that starts of that sentence makes it quite clear that this is on going in other words eternal relationship.


pros <~~~~ Has more than one meaning depending on how it is used in a context


1) to the advantage of
2) at, near, by
3) to, towards, with, with regard to

http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=4314


But your interpretation is respected, but however an interpretation does not reflect the reality of what that preposition actually means in that verse as far as I am concerned.


"pros ton theon" on it's own is an incomplete phrase if you knew koine greek you would know this, and would not be making an argument out of it, it's like saying "with God" and leaving it at that without a verb, subject or object of the verb, the phrase is incomplete the subject and the object of the verb have to be seen in context. The author is very clear what he wants to convey, the fact that the indefinite article is included when referring to "pros ton theon" means that this is God that the Word was with and was. Ahmed Deedat made the same argument in his article because he didn't know what "ton theon" meant as an object of the verb which is precisely what you are doing.

Liberate wrote:
H2O wrote:As for the geek word "Theos" being used in the context without the article "the" ie "ton" or "ho" its justification of its absents is that there was no reason for it grammatically but if this is true then why bring it back into the last phrase "..the same (?) was in the beginning with God (ton theon)"



Your greek scholarship is beginning to show; again because this is accusative (the object of the verb) the first mention of theos is the object and the second mention of theos is the subject of the verb, there is no definite article because the noun is known from the context, the writer is very clear on what he wants to convey, there is no ton or ho theo in the final phrase of theo because it simply is not in the greek text either (have a read from your copy and paste yourself it's not in there what exactly are you arguing about?) wait a minute are you paraphrasing Ahmed Deedat's article??


Aineo wrote:H2O, if you really do know Greek then you know that according to Greek grammar "ho" is not required to show the last phrase of John 1:1 is correctly translated "and the word was God". Some scholars insist the last phrase would be better translated "and the word was divine". But that is simply a matter of word choice and means the same thing. The Word was with God in the beginning and the Word is God. That H2O is what the Greek plainly states.


It is obvious the last phrase I am speaking about is different fromt eh last phrase you all are talking about.


In the greek " en arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos houtos en en arche pros ton theon " is together as one sentence, please refer to your greek text. I am focused on the greek and you all are still playing with the English.

The last phrase in the greek text is "...houtos en en arche pros ton theon ". Thus is why Liberate I responed to you with the text and reference.

I made no primary arguement of "..kai theos en ho logos.." I said it justification was :

As for the geek word "Theos" being used in the context without the article "the" ie "ton" or "ho" its justification of its absents is that there was no reason for it grammatically ....


All you two, Liberate and Aineo, did is ellaborated over the same thing I mentioned about the word.

Based upon this I said in continuation "...but if this is true then why bring it back into the last phrase "..the same (?) was in the beginning with God (ton theon)" "

For the same Justification applied to "theos" with out the deffinite article it should have been applied the same to the last phrase in the context of the greek, not the Englsih, if the aurthor understood it as the one and same G-d ?


Liberate wrote:John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. (houtos en en arche pros ton theon) This is a completely different sentence and the noun has not been defined from the context hence the need for the definite article. You are basing your argument on a completely different sentence.


In English they are per how the translators seperated them by the numbering of the verses, but in the Greek they are one complete sentence in context together.


In the greek manuscripts they are no punctuation marks chapters or numbers, period, surely you already knew this!!!!


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