Koran confirms Jesus' Crucifixion...

[Apple Pie]

الطَّارِقُ “alttariqi”

SURA 86 THE NIGHT COMER/ONE WHO KNOCKS/MORNING STAR


86:1 وَالسَّمَاءِ وَالطَّارِقِ
Waalssama-i waalttariqi

And/by the heaven/raised/highest/name/attribute, and/by the Night Comer/One who knocks/Morning Star.


86:2 [وَمَا أَدْرَكَ مَا الطَّارِقُ
Wama adraka ma alttariqu

And what made you know/informed you what the Night Comer/One who knocks/Morning Star is?



86:3 النَّجْمُ الثَّاقِبُ
Alnnajmu alththaqibu

The rising star/planet, the piercing brightness/penetrating.



86:4 إِنْ كُلُّ نَفْسٍ لَمَّا عَلَيْهَا حَافِظٌ
In kullu nafsin lamma AAalayha hafithun

That truly all/everyone soul/spirit/punishment/blood to gather on it a protector/safe keeper.



86:5 فَلْيَنظُرْ الْإِنسَنُ مِمَّ خُلِقَ
Falyanthuri al-insanu mimma khuliqa

So the human/mankind has an intimate connection should expect/consecrate from that which he was created.



86:6 خُلِقَ مِنْ مَاءٍ دَافِقٍ
Khuliqa min ma-in dafiqin

He was created from water pouring/jetting/flowing forcefully.



86:7 يَخْرُجُ مِنْ بَيْنِ الصُّلْبِ وَالتَّرَائِبِ
Yakhruju min bayni alssulbi waalttara-ibi

He comes out/emerges/appears from between the backbone/loins/spine and the breast bone/rib bones.



86:8 إِنَّهُ عَلَى رَجْعِهِ لَقَادِرٌ
Innahu AAala rajAAihi laqadirun

When His (is) upon/near/above He returned/was brought back the one who has power over.



86:9 يَوْمَ تُبْلَى السَّرَائِرُ
Yawma tubla alssara-iru

A day/time all secrets/intentions be tested/exposed/will turn to its reality.



86:10 فَمَا لَهُ مِنْ قُوَّةٍ وَلَا نَاصِرٍ
Fama lahu min quwwatin wala nasirin

So that no strength/power from and nor helper/savior for him.



86:11 وَالسَّمَاءِ ذَاتِ الرَّجْعِ
Waalssama-i thati alrrajAAi

And/by the Heaven that of the return/repeat.



86:12 وَالْأَرْضِ ذَاتِ الصَّدْعِ
Waal-ardi thati alssadAAi

And/by the entire Earth that of the splitting/separation/geological rift-fault line.



86:13 إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلٌ فَصْلٌ
Innahu laqawlun faslun

When His word (of) Judgment.



86:14 وَمَا هُوَ بِالْهَزْلِ
Wama huwa bialhazli

And that He (is not) in vain.



86:15 إِنَّهُمْ يَكِيدُونَ كَيْدًا
Innahum yakeedoona kaydan

When they devise a scheme.



86:16 وَأَكِيدُ كَيْدًا
Waakeedu kaydan

And I devise and accomplish.



86:17 فَمَهِّلْ الْكَفِرِينَ أَمْهِلْهُمْ رُوَيْدًا
Famahhili alkafireena amhilhum ruwaydan

So respite gently all the disbelievers, respite them gently for a little while.





Integrated Summary and Conclusion of the Sura title & ayahs 1-17:

1) The Sura title, “alttariqi” unites the following three aspects: One who comes at night; One who knocks; Morning Star
2) Ayah 1 begins by acknowledging and joining all “al” aspects of heaven “ssama” and all “al” aspects of “ttariqi”
3) This sets the stage for the rest of the Sura
4) Ayah 2 asks how you came to the knowledge of “alttariqi”
5) Thus, the premise has been established that “alttariqi” is already known


Since the identity of “alttariqi” is already known; let’s look at its three distinguishing aspects…

The three aspects of “alttariqi”:

1) One who comes at night…

But know this, that if the housemaster had known in what watch the thief comes, he would have watched and not have allowed his house to be dug through. Because of this, you also be ready, for in that hour you think not, the Son of Man comes. (Mat 24:43-44)

But know this, that if the house-master had known the hour the thief is coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be dug through. And you, then, be ready; for in the hour you think not, the Son of Man comes. (Luke 12:39-40)

For you yourselves know accurately that the day of the Lord, as a thief in the night, so it comes. For when they say, Peace and safety! Then suddenly destruction comes upon them, like the travail to the one having babe in womb, and not at all shall they escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you as a thief. (1 Th 5:2-4)

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with rushing sound, and having burned the elements will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be burned up. (2Pe 3:10)

Then remember how you received and heard, and keep, and repent. If, then, you do not watch, I will come upon you like a thief and you will not at all know what hour I come upon you. (Rev 3:3)

Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one watching and keeping his garments, that he does not walk naked, and they may see his shame. (Rev 16:15)



2) One who knocks…

Behold, I stand at the door and knock: If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will enter to him, and I will dine with him, and he with Me. (Rev 3:20)




3) Morning Star…

And I will give to him the Morning Star. (Rev 2:28 )

I, Jesus, sent My angel to testify these things to you over the assemblies. I am the Root and Offspring of David, the bright and morning Star. (Rev 22:16)


Jesus completely fulfills all of these requirements…

Thus, from the very initial premise of this Sura, we have a confirmation that this Sura is referring to Jesus.




6) Ayah 3 describes “alttariqi” as a rising star/planet having piercing brightness


In whom the god of this age has blinded the thoughts of the unbelieving, so that the brightness of the gospel of the glory of Christ who is the image of God, should not dawn on them. (2Co 4:4)

Because it is God who said, "Out of darkness Light shall shine," who shone in our hearts to give the brightness of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Isa. 42:6, 7, 16 (2Co 4:6)

And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, "whom" "the Lord" "will consume" "by the spirit of His mouth," and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence. Isa. 11:4 (2Th 2:8 )

Because of this, He says, Arise, sleeping ones and stand up out of the dead ones, and Christ will shine on you. (Eph 5:14)

Jesus completely fulfills this aspect…



7) Ayah 4 further elaborates on “alttariqi” proclaiming that ALL souls gather on it as a guardian
8 ) This gathering of spirits involves a punishment
9) This punishment involves blood
10) Ayah 5 is directly linked to ayah 4 by the sequence marker “fa” on “lyanthuri” proclaiming that not only do ALL souls gather on it as a guardian, but mankind has an intimate connection with “alttariqi”
11) This intimate connection, from which mankind is created is sacred/consecrated
12) To consecrate is to devote irrevocably to the worship of God
13) Ayah 6 expands upon ayah 5 and tells us from what mankind was created
14) The water “ma-in” in ayah 6 is described as large in quantity by the root “maha”, which means to hold much water
15) The large volume of water is in motion; pouring/jetting/flowing forcefully
16) Comparing all of the Koranic fluid-based “creation” passages, clearly shows that Sura 86 is not referring to creation via an emitted drop “nutfah”, nor is it referring to creation via stagnant, insignificant water
17) The “creation” of man spoken of in this Sura is unique from everything else mentioned in the entire Koran
18 ) Both Blood and Water have been mentioned
19) Ayah 7 tells us from where mankind was “created”
20) It describes the source of the water “ma-in” that is in motion
21) This source of the water comes from “between the backbone/loins/spine and the breast bone/rib bones
22) “alssulbi” which is rendered backbone/loins/spine, comes from the root “salaba/saliba”, which means TO PUT TO DEATH BY CRUCIFIXION,
23) Furthermore, investigating all the Koranic passages dealing with the crucifixion, trace their origins back to the roots “salaba/saliba”
24) The definite article “al” in addition to signifying all aspects of a subject, can also be used to denote something which has already been mentioned or a concept of which is in the mind of the reader or writer
25) This water is described as coming from the human anatomy
26) This water, from which mankind is created, comes from “alttariqi”
27) “alttariqi” has been given human attributes
28 ) This is the Crucifixion of “alttariqi”






But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a lance, and at once blood and water came out. (John 19:34)

This is the One coming through water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the One witnessing, because the Spirit is the truth. (1John 5:6)

And there are three who bear witness on the earth: The Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three are to the one. (1John 5:8 )


Jesus is the one worshiped as God, Crucified, and the one whom mankind is created….through water and blood…



29) Ayah 8 then tells us that “alttariqi” is near or upon
30) He, “alttariqi”, alone returned/was brought back “rajAAihi”
31) “rajAAihi” is masculine, singular
32) “alttariqi” is the one who “has power over”
33) This is the Resurrection of “alttariqi”




Even from Jesus Christ the Faithful Witness, the First-born out of the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him loving us and washing us from our sins by His blood, (Rev 1:5)

"Behold, He comes with the clouds," and "every eye will see Him, and the ones who pierced" Him, and all the tribes of the earth "will wail on account of Him." Yes, Amen. Dan. 7:13; Zech. 12:10 (Rev 1:7)




34) Ayah 9 tells us that a day/time will come when our secrets “"ssara-iru” will be known for what they are.
35) According to the root “sarra”, this will be a joyous event (for the ones who have put their faith in “alttariqi”)
36) This is the Day of Judgment
37) This Day of Judgment is governed by “alttariqi”
38 ) Ayah 10 is directly connected to the ayah before and after it by the sequence marker “fa”
39) The Day of Judgment, which is a joyous time for the ones mentioned in ayah 9, is not so for the ones mentioned in ayah 10
40) These people do not have the benefit of strength/power “quwwatin” from “The Savior” “nasirin” which is “alttariqi”
41) “Nasirin” is singular
42) This singular nature has been given to “alttariqi”
43) “Alttariqi” has been given the attribute of savior







44) Ayah 11 tells of the Eschatological demise of the heavens in which it will be returned (rolled up like a scroll)




Koranic support scripture…

The fright/terror the greatest/biggest does not sadden/make them grievous, and the angels receive/meet them (and they are told): "This (is) your day/time which you are being promised." A day/time We fold/coil the sky/space as/like the record/register book's folding/coiling to the books/scriptures (print); as/like We began/initiated (the) first/beginning creation, We repeat/return it, a promise on Us, We were making/doing (it). (21:103-104)

And they did not evaluate/estimate Allah, His correct/true evaluation/estimation, and the earth/Planet Earth all/all together (on) the Resurrection Day (is in) His hand hold/grasp , and the skies/space (are) folded/rolled at/by His right, His praise/glory about what they share/make partners (with Him). (39:67)


Compare to the Holy Bible…

And I saw when He opened the sixth seal. And behold, a great earthquake occurred. And the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair; and the moon became as blood; and the stars of the heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree being shaken by a great wind casts its unripe figs. And the heaven departed like a scroll being rolled up. And every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (Rev 6:12-14)




45) Ayah 12 continues with the Eschatological demise of the earth in which it will be split into pieces (earthquake)




Koranic support scripture…

You, you the people, fear and obey your Lord, that the Hour's/Resurrection's shaking/rumbling/moving (is) a great thing. (22:1)

When/if the earth/Planet Earth trembled and quaked, trembling and quaking. And the mountains were crumbled/scattered, crumbling/scattering. (56:4-5)

Here is an Entire Sura named Earthquake….

SURA 99 THE SHAKEN/TREMBLED/EARTHQUAKE

When/if the earth/Planet Earth shook/trembled its shaking/trembling/earthquake. (99:1)



Compare to the Holy Bible…

And I saw when He opened the sixth seal. And behold, a great earthquake occurred. And the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair; and the moon became as blood; (6:12)

And in that hour a great earthquake occurred, and the tenth part of the city fell. And there were killed in the earthquake seven thousand names of men. And the rest became terrified, and gave glory to the God of Heaven. (Rev 11:13)

And the temple of God in Heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple, and lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and a great hail occurred. (Rev 11:19)

And voices and thunders and lightnings occurred. And a great earthquake occurred, such as did not occur since man came into being on the earth, such a huge earthquake, so great! And the great city came to be into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the anger of His wrath. (Rev 16:18-19)



46) Ayah 13 tells us that “alttariqi” will judge with His WORD
47) Ayah 14 continues, and tells us that this Judgment is not in vain
48 ) Once again, this Judgment comes from “huwa” or “He”, which is masculine, singular
49) Ayah 15 tells of the plotting & scheming of the people
50) Ayah 16 informs us that “alttariqi” devises and accomplishes a plan of His own
51) The singularity of “alttariqi” is reinforced by the usage of “akeedu”
52) Ayah 17 is tied-in with the previous ayah by the sequence conjunction “fa”
53) “Alttariqi” gives respite (a period of temporary delay) to all the disbelievers




Notice that اللَّهِ “allah” is never mentioned anywhere in ayahs 1 -17.

The Sura title, all by itself, tells us who this Sura is about.

This Sura is completely, totally, and utterly about Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

It is beyond ANY reasonable doubt…


Amen

[Omega]

There is a very serious problem with your post my friend and I will point it out very clearly. I must say that those pictures are are worthwhile to look at!
But I can assure you that words are only necessary to those who have "faith"

Jesus completely fulfills all of these requirements…

Thus, [u]from the very initial premise of this Sura, we have a confirmation that this Sura is referring to Jesus.

Very easily spotted, whether anyone wants to hear me out or not, doesn't make a difference because I can spot errors very easily especially in these very Last Days.

First and foremost, there is only One Truth, correct?

When the Devil makes a Lie, His Lie is deception which takes the Truth and combines it with Falsehood. Example:

Genesis 3:5 - For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

"Knowing Good and Evil"
Seemingly The Truth correct? Nonetheless a Great Deception, Many fail to realize the Deception of the Wicked One.
The same as the above comments where you mentioned that how the surah substantiates the proof of Jesus being the Savior correct?

Now here lies the Problem, the Quran states that Jesus did not die for our sins but that he was a mere prophet. Then you have your quotes from the Bible and attempt to substantiate further proof using the Quran.


So whats the problem here?
One Book is obviously a lie, the most important aspect of the Bible is the message of Salvation which is not in the Quran, do you understand where I am coming from?
Likewise with the Garden of Eden where the Truth was mixed in with lies making the deception even Grander, do you understand or do you have an ulterior motive or are either mislead?

The Quran was not written by God nor is it given by Godly inspiration. The Bible declares the Absolute Truth. So I will leave these important messages behind and lets see who is able to follow it and who is ready to be deceived.

When the Church or the Body of Christ is taken away from the Earth, the influential power or the salt of the Earth will be removed making way for a very, very Grand Deception and also making way of the path the red carpet that leads to the Father of ALL LIES!

And with this the Truth of Christianity will be mingled with false doctrine which will be taken from the Quran. So now we will have a False Prophet who has His ties with christianity but is masked in deception, and with the combination of false christianity and the Quran mingled together with other False Religions, you will then have the Ultimate Deception of the One World Religion. Then the Entire World will be deceived!

Either whoever reads this can take my advice or take your advice, But since we are nearing the "End of the Age" deception will then reach its peak which is very devastating.

But thanks for sharing your comments"Apple Pie" and BTW apple pie sure does sound sweet. ... . ..... .. . .,,

So where are these words that have been typed out originate from?

There is only One Absolute Truth, and you do not need more than One Book to show proof where proof is needed. and that Proof comes from the Most important Message of all time, and that is The Bible declares the Word of God and it declares that Salvation is found in that book and that book alone!

That Book The Bible is Inspired by the very Words of God, and "The Word" is Jesus, and only through that name can anyone receive Salvation, Someone is attempting to indoctrinate The Truth with Error, cannot be so.
Words can be very damaging and I'm sure about this!

So if the Quran has just one error or lie, than it is capable of leading others astray.

Whosoever has ears to hear and eyes to see and a heart to understand, let Him/Her hear with their ears and see with their eyes and understand with their hearts!

I'm just about fed up with satan and his lies, The Body of Christ is accused Daily and one of these days it will all end and Truth will Prevail against Lie and Evil.

Revelation 13:10 - He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

God Bless!

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Omega,

Thanks for your comments...

I would like to review a couple of them if I may…

"Knowing Good and Evil"
Seemingly The Truth correct? Nonetheless a Great Deception, Many fail to realize the Deception of the Wicked One.
The same as the above comments where you mentioned that how the surah substantiates the proof of Jesus being the Savior correct?

Sura 86 confirms the following:

1) Jesus is worshiped as deity
2) Jesus was Crucified
3) Jesus was Resurrected
4) Jesus judges the dead

Now here lies the Problem, the Quran states that Jesus did not die for our sins but that he was a mere prophet.

Actually, the Koran corroborates and parrots the Holy Bible in all manner of aspects of Jesus.

Trouble is, most people fail to study the Arabic in which the Koran was written.

The original message of the Koran is still that Jesus is God Almighty…..however, this original message has been lost to a great extent over the centuries due to a growing Muslim bias towards Christians….also, having poor “popular” English renderings of the Koranic Arabic has further camouflaged the true meanings…

Then you have your quotes from the Bible and attempt to substantiate further proof using the Quran.

The Holy Bible is completely self-sufficient in its statements.

My post is intended to show Muslims how their Koran also parrots what has always been stated in the NT.

So whats the problem here?
One Book is obviously a lie, the most important aspect of the Bible is the message of Salvation which is not in the Quran, do you understand where I am coming from?

I prefer to call the Koran an imitation Holy Bible.

If you are persnickety with the original languages, then you will easily see that the authors of the Koran used two main Books of the Holy Bible in the construction of their opus….namely the Book of Genesis and the Book of Revelation…with a smattering of material in-between…

The Quran was not written by God nor is it given by Godly inspiration. The Bible declares the Absolute Truth. So I will leave these important messages behind and lets see who is able to follow it and who is ready to be deceived.

I agree. The Koran is not divinely inspired; it is simply an attempt at replicating its source, the Holy Bible.

However, we cannot simply dismiss it out of hand without first performing an analysis as to what it truly states….and this is where most people have already formed hardened biases regarding it (right or wrong)…


Thanks…

[Omega]

Hey Thanks for the Friendly response~!

Suit yourself, very well at maintaining your compsure I might add.

My belief stands firm, And the Gates of Hell will not have me to rethink what I have said. I'm not here to deceive anyone, I was just told what i was supposed to do. And those direct orders were from God Himself. So feel free to think whatever you want about me, but warning to anyone not too judge at all, however one who has The Absolute Truth within them which is undiluted, it recognizes TRUTH from Falsehood and Error.

So feel Free choose the path to take, I must say that to whom much is given, much is also required. But the path of a sheep to His Most Faithful and True Shepherd is always directed by the Chief Shepherd and His eyes are always on His sheep and His ears are always listening to the prayers of His Faithful followers, and will never ever lead them where danger or uncertainty lies ahead, but are directed by the Rod and Staff of Almighty God.

God Bless!

[Omega]

I agree. The Koran is not divinely inspired; it is simply an attempt at replicating its source, the Holy Bible.

Lets take a look at this verse in the Living Bible:

2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Then you have the Quran which is according to you not divinely inspired, do you see the Problem we have here? How are you or anyone for that matter able make an attempt to replicate a Book that is Divinely inspired?

Now you have a book which is inspired by God and given through the inspiration of the Holy Ghost who is God through the authors who were filled with the Holy Spirit, now was Muhammad somehow filled with the Holy Spirit?.......
And Muhammad is definitely not The Holy Spirit!

When God starts something He finishes it. He doesn't say to Himself,"I forgot to throw in a few more additions to the Bible that should have been there in the first place!"

Goodnight!

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Omega,

Thanks for your comments…

Then you have the Quran which is according to you not divinely inspired, do you see the Problem we have here? How are you or anyone for that matter able make an attempt to replicate a Book that is Divinely inspired?

Joe Smith did the same thing, and started a new faith called Mormonism….thus, copying Biblical scripture and repackaging it for consumption, seems to have misled many people over the centuries….

Now you have a book which is inspired by God and given through the inspiration of the Holy Ghost who is God through the authors who were filled with the Holy Spirit, now was Muhammad somehow filled with the Holy Spirit?.......

It appears that the Koran that we know today was pieced together by many authors long after the life and times Islam’s “prophet”…

And Muhammad is definitely not The Holy Spirit!

He did not write the Koran…..he is just a figure head…nothing more….



Take care…

[Omega]

Joe Smith did the same thing, and started a new faith called Mormonism….thus, copying Biblical scripture and repackaging it for consumption, seems to have misled many people over the centuries….

Joseph Smith was mislead by evil spirits, even when one is out to seek the Truth an then makes their very best effort to publicize the Truth, you and anyone for that matter must be on guard. This I know what I speak of especially in these very last days! Regardles of what anyone says, I understand that you are attemtping to bring the light to the muslims by using their doctrine and I have seen this done many a times before, but what many fail to realize is that you cannot mix Truth with Error. And if anyone opposes what I have to say then let it be, but the Absolute Truth must be said.

It appears that the Koran that we know today was pieced together by many authors long after the life and times Islam’s “prophet”…

What you must and must realize is that do you know for certain that if these authors are inspired by the Holy Spirit? I can assure anyone here that The Bible is written by those who are filled with the Holy Spirit, but you cannot take chances on mere men who are for the Quran and not the Bible. Does anyone here see the deception?

He did not write the Koran…..he is just a figure head…nothing more….
Take care…

I see, well it comes as no surprise how we are living in these very last days and spirits of deception run rampant, don't get me wrong, I did not call you an enemy and your website has very interesting points that point to the very nature of God, and I find it very interesting how you seem to know the nature of God quite well and are well versed in scriptures pertaining to His nature. However this you must understand, and I leave you with this. When someone or anyone makes an all out effort to seek out the Truth, I can assure you that spirits of deception will arise to mingle in falsehood with the Truth. Joseph Smith, Muhammad, Buddha, and all those who originally took the path to seek out tht Absolute Truth when the Absolute was there already, so pray and and I'm sure you do and maybe you will be able to discern what you must write and what must be kept to yourself!

God Bless!

[Omega]

I have taken a look at your website:http://www.reasons.org/index.shtml

And it shed light on the existence of God, however it makes an attempt to prove the existence of God through science and factual evidence which is seen by the eye of humans. Can this bring others who have no faith to God? It may be helpful to those who are completely spiritually blind!

These scriptures would be of great significance to those who search for God in pure faith:John 20:29 - Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Sadly we can clearly see the declination of pure faith on Earth!
But apparently God will do whatever He can in these last days to open the eyes of the spiritually blind.

Luke 18:8 - I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

God Bless!

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Omega,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts…

Joseph Smith was mislead by evil spirits, even when one is out to seek the Truth an then makes their very best effort to publicize the Truth, you and anyone for that matter must be on guard. This I know what I speak of especially in these very last days! Regardles of what anyone says, I understand that you are attemtping to bring the light to the muslims by using their doctrine and I have seen this done many a times before, but what many fail to realize is that you cannot mix Truth with Error. And if anyone opposes what I have to say then let it be, but the Absolute Truth must be said.

I understand what you are saying…however, do you have anything specific that you would like to impart to Sura 86…?

What you must and must realize is that do you know for certain that if these authors are inspired by the Holy Spirit? I can assure anyone here that The Bible is written by those who are filled with the Holy Spirit, but you cannot take chances on mere men who are for the Quran and not the Bible. Does anyone here see the deception?

I agree.

I believe that the authors of the Koran were not inspired individuals….however, they constructed the Koranic opus from inspired material…

The task, therefore, is to see if the Biblical material was transferred correctly across the language barrier (i.e. from Hebrew & Greek to Arabic)…

I see, well it comes as no surprise how we are living in these very last days and spirits of deception run rampant, don't get me wrong, I did not call you an enemy and your website has very interesting points that point to the very nature of God, and I find it very interesting how you seem to know the nature of God quite well and are well versed in scriptures pertaining to His nature. However this you must understand, and I leave you with this. When someone or anyone makes an all out effort to seek out the Truth, I can assure you that spirits of deception will arise to mingle in falsehood with the Truth. Joseph Smith, Muhammad, Buddha, and all those who originally took the path to seek out tht Absolute Truth when the Absolute was there already, so pray and and I'm sure you do and maybe you will be able to discern what you must write and what must be kept to yourself!

I have taken a look at your website:http://www.reasons.org/index.shtml

Reasons.org is not my website.

I do, however, support most of the material contained within its pages….

And it shed light on the existence of God, however it makes an attempt to prove the existence of God through science and factual evidence which is seen by the eye of humans. Can this bring others who have no faith to God? It may be helpful to those who are completely spiritually blind!

These scriptures would be of great significance to those who search for God in pure faith:John 20:29 - Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Sadly we can clearly see the declination of pure faith on Earth!
But apparently God will do whatever He can in these last days to open the eyes of the spiritually blind.

Science and Biblical faith go hand-in-hand.

Reasons.org brings to light this often overlooked fact…


Take care…

[Omega]

I understand what you are saying…however, do you have anything specific that you would like to impart to Sura 86…?

Hello apple pie!

This is what I dug up regarding sura 86:
http://www.oneummah.net/qalam/quran_blood_circ.html

Examine it for yourself. I can assure you that all the scientific knowledge found in the Quran does not originate from the Creator. I know exactly where it originates from. In todays world it is somewhat a tradegy that facts must be present in order to further prove theories or interpretations when dealing with religion, especially with Christianity.

Now with science:

With the Quran, if I were to tell you where it originated from and how it came to be and where all the scientific knowledge could have possibly been known in that era, you would probably not believe me.

Science and faith do not go hand in hand, science proving the facts of religions such as Christianity and Islam is there to show that many are walking in blind faith. Science is seen and heard, The Truth is seen spiritually and understood with the heart.

God Bless!

[Omega]

One wonders if science can prove the existence of miracles?
I'm sure the answer is out there. Factual evidence regarding the death and resurrection of Christ and his crucifixion, can this be proved by science? I'm sure you can differentiate how science is part of the Quran and the traces of science which are found in the Bible, you can see a major difference, why?

It is called FAITH!

Which religion requires more faith? Islam or Christianity?
Take a look at how often science plays a role in each book and you will get the answer!

So you have the Quran and its attempt to prove the crucifixion and then on the other hand you have the Bible which demonstrates that faith is required in believing in the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Christ.
When Examining both books you can clearly see which requires more faith, and with that you can come to the assumption or conclusion that The god of the Quran is not the God of the Bible, neither was it inspired by God but by mere man.

John 4:24 - God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

God Bless!

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Omega,

Thanks for your reply…

This is what I dug up regarding sura 86:
http://www.oneummah.net/qalam/quran_blood_circ.html

Examine it for yourself. I can assure you that all the scientific knowledge found in the Quran does not originate from the Creator. I know exactly where it originates from. In todays world it is somewhat a tradegy that facts must be present in order to further prove theories or interpretations when dealing with religion, especially with Christianity.

I appreciate this link. This is the first time that I have heard of the “blood” interpretation of ayahs 5-7. Usually, Muslims apologists claim that it is semen emanation.

However, carefully exegesis of Sura 86 and all of the other relevant Koranic ayahs relating to semen, show beyond any reasonable doubt that it is definitely not semen being talked about in Sura 86…

In fact, the Sura specifically mentions ماء “ma-in”…..or water…

It is intriguing that the author would think that it is “blood”, as this would lend even more credence for the Crucifixion event taking place…

Now with science:

With the Quran, if I were to tell you where it originated from and how it came to be and where all the scientific knowledge could have possibly been known in that era, you would probably not believe me.

It is clear that it came from the Holy Bible….would you not agree…?

Science and faith do not go hand in hand, science proving the facts of religions such as Christianity and Islam is there to show that many are walking in blind faith. Science is seen and heard, The Truth is seen spiritually and understood with the heart.

This is where I would have to disagree with you…

The Creator of the Universe gave us two Revelations:

1) The words of the Holy Bible
2) The Record of Nature

Today, more than ever before in the history of mankind, we can witness for ourselves how God’s two Revelations complement each other…

Science and the Bible are two very powerful tools in reaching the peoples of today…

It worked for me….



Take care…

[Omega]

First of thank you for responding to my post!
I believe that either you misunderstood me or I misunderstood you.

So what is the definition of Pure Faith?

With the below verse, are we dealing with science or just faith, or a combination of both?

Romans 1:20 - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Quote this verse to an atheist whose forte is science and I can assure you that it would not change his/her mind in regards to either the existence of God or the crucifixion of Christ.

Here is what I am trying to say, with science it is obvious that you can see a higher authority and intelligence at work here, however it is no pure faith.

• 1.The words of the Holy Bible
• 2.The Record of Nature

Now my point is that although they compliment each other, will science increase the level of faith? See now that is a trickery of the enemy, when you have one book that demonstrates the knowledge of science to further prove the existence of God, then you have less and less people accepting God with sheer faith, but you have the level of faith decreasing amongst those who seek out the absolute Truth.

Luke 18:8 - I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

God Bless!

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Omega,

Thanks for your comments…

So what is the definition of Pure Faith?

Faith represents acting upon established truth…

With the below verse, are we dealing with science or just faith, or a combination of both?
Quote:
Romans 1:20 - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


Quote this verse to an atheist whose forte is science and I can assure you that it would not change his/her mind in regards to either the existence of God or the crucifixion of Christ.

Well…I would expect that a single “proof text” from any scripture would not be sufficient to sway any reasonable person.

Integration of scripture as a whole is where it is at….would you not agree…?

For the Muslim, integration of their scriptures is required in order to prove to them that their Koran clearly proclaims Jesus’ divinity.

Furthermore, Koranic “science” is basically Biblical “science”, as the Koran is pre-fabricated from Biblical scriptures….

Now my point is that although they compliment each other, will science increase the level of faith?

Yes…..both are from the same source….

See now that is a trickery of the enemy, when you have one book that demonstrates the knowledge of science to further prove the existence of God, then you have less and less people accepting God with sheer faith, but you have the level of faith decreasing amongst those who seek out the absolute Truth.

Science is a means to an end.

Science and physics is mans’ attempt at understanding his environment.

Theology is mans’ attempt at understanding the Word of God.

Once it is understood that BOTH are from the same source, then how could there possibly be an issue?

They both can be utilized as pathways to the Creator God of the Universe.

When used together, they are a very formidable force…


However interesting this topic is….it is straying from the theme of this thread, and that is Sura 86….Do you have any further comments regarding the Koranic “vision” of the Crucifixion…?


Thanks…

[Omega]

Hello Apple Pie

Once again! Thanks for responding.
satan is attacking and attempting to sow discord amongst us and i am 100%SURE
And railing accusations.

John 8:32 - And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Is it possible that Pure Faith can be obtained by walking at strides at a Time, and only focusing on? Apple Pie

In the Qurans, they mentioned that if one error is found within the Quran, then minus well discard the rest. However,,,,,,,2?

God Bless!

[H2O]

This is what the Quran says:

And they (the enemies of Jesus) plotted (to kill him) and Allah to plotted, and Allah is the best of plotters. When Allah said : "O Jesus ! Verily I am causing you to decease (mutawafee) while raising you to my self and purifying you from those who are disbelievers".....(Quran 3:54-55)

and in their (the Jews) disbelief they spoke against Maryam grave false charges, and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so. And verily those who differed there in (that he was not crucified nor killed) were indeed in doubt about it. They had no knowledge about it except that they followed conjecture, and for surety they killed him not, [color=red]rather Allah raised him up to himself (ref. 3:54-55) and Allah is almighty all wise (Quran 4:156-157)

[On the Day of Judgement Jesus will say] I did not say to them (the Jews and my followers) but what you commanded me to say that "Worship Allah (In Aramaic Aalah) my Lord and your Lord" and I was a witness over them (the Jews) when I dwelt among them whereas you caused me to decease (ref. 3:54-55) you were the watcher over them and you are a witness over everything (5:116-118)[/color]

I hope you know how to read Apple Pie. I am going name you after Liberate "WishFull Thinker II"

[Apple Pie]

Greetings H2O,

Thanks for your participation in this discussion.

For brevity, let’s consider the very first of your Koranic quotes before moving onto the others…

This is what the Quran says:

And they (the enemies of Jesus) plotted (to kill him) and Allah to plotted, and Allah is the best of plotters. When Allah said : "O Jesus ! Verily I am causing you to decease (mutawafee) while raising you to my self and purifying you from those who are disbelievers".....(Quran 3:54-55)

Let’s expand the context of your referenced ayahs…

So when Jesus felt from them the disbelief, he said: "Who (are) my victoriors/saviors/supporters to Allah?" The Disciples/victoriors said: "We (are) Allah's victoriors/supporters, we believed with Allah, and (you) be a witness with that we are submitters/surrenderers." (3:52)

Falamma ahassa AAeesa minhumu alkufra qala man ansaree ila Allahi qala alhawariyyoona nahnu ansaru Allahi amanna biAllahi waishhad bi-anna muslimoona

"Our Lord, we believed with what You descended, and we followed the messenger, so write (include) us with the witnessing/testifying." (3:53)

Rabbana amanna bima anzalta waittabaAAna alrrasoola faoktubna maAAa alshshahideena

And they cheated/deceived and Allah cheated/deceived, and Allah (is) the best (of) the cheaters/deceivers. (3:54)

Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena


اِذْ قَالَاللَّهُ يَعِيسَى اِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ
وَرَافِعُكَاِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنْ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَفَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا اِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَمَةِ ثُمَّ اِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْفَاحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنْتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ
Ith qala Allahu ya AAeesa innee mutawaffeeka warafiAAuka ilayya wamutahhiruka mina allatheena kafaroo wajaAAilu allatheena ittabaAAooka fawqa allatheena kafaroo ila yawmi alqiyamati thumma ilayya marjiAAukum faahkumu baynakum feema kuntum feehi takhtalifoona

When Allah said: "You Jesus I am, I am making you die and raising you to Me and purifying you from those who disbelieved, and making those who followed you above those who disbelieved to the Resurrection Day, then to Me (is) your return, so I judge/rule between you in what, you were in it differing . (3:55)

مُتَوَفِّيكَ = “mutawaffeeka”

“mutawaffeeka” definition:

I am making you die. It comes from the root “wafa”, which means to reach the end, keep ones promise, fulfill ones engagement, pay a debt, perform a promise.

References:

The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 615 -616

The Koran
Complete Dictionary & Literal Translation
Mohamed Ahmed
p. 361



Thus, as you can verify for yourself, the Koran clearly states that Jesus died. Sura 86 confirms that He died on the cross…


Here are some more examples which should clarify the meaning of 3:55…



وَإِنْ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَبِإِلَّا لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا

Wa-in min ahli alkitabi illa layu/minanna bihi qabla mawtihi wayawma alqiyamati yakoonu AAalayhim shaheedan

And that from The Book's people, except to believe with him (Jesus) before his death, and (on) the Resurrection Day, he (Jesus) will be on them a witness/testifier. (4:159)

مَوْتِهِ = “mawtihi”

“mawtihi” definition:

Death. It comes from the root “mata”, which means to die, die away, burn out, become still.

Reference:

The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 545




وَالسَّلَمُ عَلَيَّيَوْمَ وُلِدْتُ وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَأُبْعَثُ حَيًّا
ذَلِكَ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ قَوْلَ الْحَقِّ الَّذِي فِيهِيَمْتَرُونَ

Waalssalamu AAalayya yawma wulidtu wayawma amootu wayawma obAAathu hayyan ThalikaAAeesa ibnu maryama qawla alhaqqi allathee feehi yamtaroona

"And the security/peace (was) on me (on the) day I was born, and (the) day I die, and (the) day I be sent/resurrected/revived alive." That (was) Jesus Mary's son, the correct/real saying/opinion and belief which they (are) doubting/arguing in it. (19:33-34)

أَمُوتُ = “amootu”

“amootu” definition:

I die. It comes from the root “mata”, which means to die, die away, burn out, become still.
Reference:

The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 545

Thus, as you can see for yourself, the Koran specifically calls-out for the death of Jesus.

In fact, Jesus Himself states this in the Koran.

Furthermore, Jesus states the He will be Resurrected.

Why deny your Koran?

Continuing with the context…

So but those who disbelieved, so I torture them, a strong (severe) torture in the present world/near and the end (other life), and (there are) nothing for them from victoriors/saviors. (3:56)

Faamma allatheena kafaroo faoAAaththibuhum AAathaban shadeedan fee alddunya waal-akhirati wama lahum min nasireena

And but those who believed and did the correct/righteous deeds, so He fulfills/completes (to) them their rewards, and Allah does not love/like the unjust/oppressive. (3:57)

Waamma allatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihati fayuwaffeehim ojoorahum waAllahu la yuhibbu alththalimeena

That We read/recited it on you from the signs/verses/evidences and the reminder, the wise/judicious. (3:58 )

Thalika natloohu AAalayka mina al-ayati waalththikri alhakeemi


Summary of 3:54/55 in context:


1) Jesus’ disciples claim that He is a witness
2) Then His disciples state that they followed the messenger (Jesus)
3) Allah is the best of the deceivers/cheaters
4) Allah calls Jesus “I Am”
5) Jesus dies (on the cross as detailed in Sura 86)
6) Jesus is “wafa” fulfilling His promise
7) Allah raises Jesus to himself, purified
8 ) Disbelievers go to Hell
9) Believers go to paradise


Conclusion:
1) Jesus’ Disciples believe that He is the truth
2) Allah confirms the deity of Jesus
3) Jesus dies (on the cross as detailed in Sura 86)
4) Jesus rises to Heaven where He will judge people on the Day of Resurrection

I eagerly await your reply...

[Unite]

The funniest thing about ur post is that you do not believe that Qur'an is word of God, then delve into ethymologic analysis of the Qur'an (which you think is made up by Muhammad) and after the anlaysis you declare that Allah confirms Jesus is bla bla bla...Funny, and WRONG in results...

If it was the other way around, namely if a Muslim was making such analysis of Bible that would be meaningful because Muslims believe Bible was word of God, before it was largely corrupted.

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Unite,

Thanks for your comments…

The funniest thing about ur post is that you do not believe that Qur'an is word of God,

The god of the Koran is not the God of the Holy Bible, unless, of course, you are willing to concede to its original message that Jesus is God.

then delve into ethymologic analysis of the Qur'an (which you think is made up by Muhammad)

With all due respect, what does your “prophet” have to do with the Koran?

The Koran as we know it today is the product of many authors that pieced it together long after the life and times of your “prophet”…..which is confirmed by the oldest extant fragments of suras…

and after the anlaysis you declare that Allah confirms Jesus is bla bla bla...Funny, and WRONG in results...

Actually, my conclusion comes after years of study in which I have been integrating the entire Koran.

The Korans attempt at replicating the Christian scriptures is clearly evident when one takes the time to study the Arabic.

The Koran, albeit bankrupt in delivering its true intended message by centuries of Muslim bias, is an external confirmation to the authority of the holy Bible…

The Koran proclaims Jesus to be God Almighty.

If it was the other way around, namely if a Muslim was making such analysis of Bible that would be meaningful because Muslims believe Bible was word of God, before it was largely corrupted.

The Koran just parrots its’ source, the Holy Bible.

The Holy Bible is required to correct and clarify the Koran in all manner of things.

You can see this to be true in just the exegesis of Sura 86, of which, you apparently are totally unable to refute…


Take care…

[H2O]

إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ

Note: Before we move on I would like to let you know that I speak arabic.

idz (when) Qaala (He said) Alllaah (Allah) yaa (O) 'ieesaa (Jesus) innee ( Verily I am ) mutawaffee ( taking your soul ) wa (and) raa'fi'uk (raising you) ilayya ( to me)

When Allah said: " O Jesus I am taking you soul and raising you to me "

You know as well as I do you can translate "mutawaffee" in many ways but all express a form of death or decease. There is no dispute between you and I as to the meaning of the Word which expresses to die or to decease or to take ones soul.

You error is in the conjuction "WA" meaning "and" or "while" in which both mutawaffee (deceasing) and raafi'a (raising) happened together and not seperate. The verbtence is the same which expresses bot action occured at the same time.

And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so. And verily those who differed there in (that he was not crucified nor killed) were indeed in doubt about it. They had no knowledge about it except that they followed conjecture, and for surety they killed him not, rather Allah raised him up to himself . 4:157

His tawafee happened during his accension.

Thus, as you can verify for yourself, the Koran clearly states that Jesus died. Sura 86 confirms that He died on the cross…

I read your claim about surah 86, it holds no water cause 4:157 rejects him being kill or crucified. This is what your interpreting it to being in which the Quran clarifies it its self it is not what you interpretate it to mean.

وَإِنْ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَبِإِلَّا لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا

" Mawtihi " could either be refering to Jesus's or the people of the book's death as the grammar of the Quran Allah many times refers to a group of people using a singular pronoun such as "hu"

However lets look at what sense your interpretation will make. If you say "mawtihi" ~ his death is refering to Jesus and the sentence before it is saying that the "people of the book but MUST believe in him" would be ironic denoting that they (the people of the book) have up to the time of his(Jesus') death as the Quran says " qabla mawtihi " ~ before his (Jesus') death [in the context] indicating he has not yet died from since the time these words were uttered by our Prophet which was about six hundred years after Jesus.

"and the people of the book but must believe in him (Jesus) BEFORE his death"

You quoted out of contect. This is not the bible sir, we read Quran and understand it in it grammatical structure.

"qabla mawtihi" before his (Its) death is refering to "ahlal-kitaab" ~ People of The Book, which is also masculine, in which the people of the book but must believe in Jesus before they die.

وَالسَّلَمُ عَلَيَّيَوْمَ وُلِدْتُ وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَأُبْعَثُ حَيًّا

wa(and) assalam (the peace) alaiya (upon me) yawma (day) wulidtu ( I was born) wa (and) yawma (day) amootu ( I die) wa (and) yawma (day) ub'athu (I am revived) hayyaa (life)

Translation : "and Peace be upon me (Jesus) the day I was born and the day I die and the day I am revived to life" 19:33

I doubt that you know arabic, maybe a little, I dont know, but I find it hard to believe that you read the Quran. This elementry error you made is from lack of not reading. The same statement is uttered identically for Yahya word for word with the exception of the pronouns.

وَسَلَامٌ عَلَيْهِ يَوْمَ وُلِدَ وَيَوْمَ يَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ يُبْعَثُ حَيًّا

wa(and) salamun ( a peace ) alaihi (upon him) yawma (day) wulida ( he was born ) wa (and) yawma (day) yamootu ( he dies) wa (and) yawma (day) yub'athu (he is revived) hayyaa (life)

Translation: "and peace be upon him (Yahya) the day he was born and the day he dies and the day he is revived to life" 19:15

19:33 doest not infer anything to Jesus' crucifixion r him being killed by his enemies in which the Quran clearly refutes. His death occured at the of his accension as it is described in 3:55

Thus, as you can see for yourself, the Koran specifically calls-out for the death of Jesus.

Yes I would agree but not how you are implimenting it

[Unite]

Well, this is another funny comment. You say Qur'an contradicts science but actually your reveal you do not have proper knowledge of science.

Let's go step by step. The verse says the semen proceeds between backbone and the ribs. It does not say it is produced in that region.

Site #1: http://www.infertilitytutorials.com/spe ... uction.cfm

"(B) emission

Emission is the deposition of seminal fluid into the posterior urethra. This requires that the seminal fluid released from the epididymis has traversed the vas deferens into the urethra. The vas deferens is about 30cm long and initiates at the epididymis (epididymal portion), passes through the scrotum (scrotal portion) into the abdomen via the inguinal canal (inguinal portion) where it then passes through the pelvis (pelvic portion) to the posterior urethra (ampullary portion). "

Site #2: http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/ ... ethra.html

"Urethra

In anatomy, the urethra is a tube that connects the urinary bladder to the outside of the body. The urethra has an excretory function in both sexes, to pass urine to the outside, and also a reproductive function in the male, as a passage for sperm. The external urethral sphincter is the skeletal muscle that allows voluntary control over urination."

Site #3: http://www.ivf-infertility.com/infertil ... ility2.php

Check the figure in this page to see which canals does the semen proceed through, and where these canals extend to in the body.

Man, are you so naive to think that there's shortcut between testicles and the male organ!!!

You can see this to be true in just the exegesis of Sura 86, of which, you apparently are totally unable to refute…

[H2O]

86:فَلْيَنظُرِ الْإِنسَانُ مِمَّ خُلِقَ (5)

خُلِقَ مِن مَّاء دَافِقٍ (86:6)

يَخْرُجُ مِن بَيْنِ الصُّلْبِ وَالتَّرَائِبِ (86:7)

I would like to help my brothers ans sisters out here. Surah 86:5-7 there is no mention of sperm

86:5 fa ( so then) yandhuri (consider) al (the) insaan (man ie male and female) mimma (from what) khuliqa (created)

86:6 khuliqa (created) min (from) maa'a (liquid) daafiqin (ejected)

86:7 yakhruju (coming out) min (from) bayni (between) al (the) sulbi (backbone) wa (and) al (the) taraaa'ib (ribs)

" So then let man (male and female) consider from what they are created from

[Apple Pie]

Greetings H2O,

Thanks for your comments…

Quote:
إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ

Note: Before we move on I would like to let you know that I speak arabic.

And…?

idz (when) Qaala (He said) Alllaah (Allah) yaa (O) 'ieesaa (Jesus) innee ( Verily I am ) mutawaffee ( taking your soul ) wa (and) raa'fi'uk (raising you) ilayya ( to me)

When Allah said: " O Jesus I am taking you soul and raising you to me "

You know as well as I do you can translate "mutawaffee" in many ways but all express a form of death or decease. There is no dispute between you and I as to the meaning of the Word which expresses to die or to decease or to take ones soul.

You error is in the conjuction "WA" meaning "and" or "while" in which both mutawaffee (deceasing) and raafi'a (raising) happened together and not seperate. The verbtence is the same which expresses bot action occured at the same time.

His tawafee happened during his accension.

Let’s look…

اِذْ قَالَاللَّهُ يَعِيسَى اِنِّيمُتَوَفِّيكَوَرَافِعُكَاِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنْ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَفَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا اِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَمَةِ ثُمَّ اِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْفَاحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنْتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

Ith qala Allahu ya AAeesa innee mutawaffeeka warafiAAuka ilayya wamutahhiruka mina allatheena kafaroo wajaAAilu allatheena ittabaAAooka fawqa allatheena kafaroo ila yawmi alqiyamati thumma ilayya marjiAAukum faahkumu baynakum feema kuntum feehi takhtalifoona

When Allah said: "You Jesus I am, I am making you die and raising you to Me and purifying you from those who disbelieved, and making those who followed you above those who disbelieved to the Resurrection Day, then to Me (is) your return, so I judge/rule between you in what, you were in it differing. (3:55)

Summary of 3:55:

1) When Allah said: "You Jesus I am,
2) I am making you die
3) AND, raising you to Me
4) AND, purifying you from those who disbelieved,
5) AND, making those who followed you above those who disbelieved to the Resurrection Day,
6) THEN, “thumma”, then to Me (is) your return, so I judge/rule between you in what, you were in it differing.


Your exegesis has failed to include the sequence marker ثُمَّ “thumma”.

By definition, “thumma” means: Then, Afterwards; Moreover; Mostly used as a conjunction indicating a sequence in line or order to be rendered as Then; Thereafter; Thereupon.

Reference:

The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 84


Thus, as you can clearly see, the Koran calls-out for Jesus’ death, THEN His return…thus telling us that His death did not occur during His ascension…

And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so. And verily those who differed there in (that he was not crucified nor killed) were indeed in doubt about it. They had no knowledge about it except that they followed conjecture, and for surety they killed him not, rather Allah raised him up to himself .
Quote:
Thus, as you can verify for yourself, the Koran clearly states that Jesus died. Sura 86 confirms that He died on the cross…


I read your claim about surah 86, it holds no water cause 4:157 rejects him being kill or crucified. This is what your interpreting it to being in which the Quran clarifies it its self it is not what you interpretate it to mean.

With all due respect, I have not even addressed Sura 4….we will get to it in due time…

We are still examining Sura 3 and how it squares with Sura 86…thanks…

وَإِنْ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَبِإِلَّا لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا

" Mawtihi " could either be refering to Jesus's or the people of the book's death as the grammar of the Quran Allah many times refers to a group of people using a singular pronoun such as "hu"

With all due respect, the context shows quite clearly that it is speaking of Jesus…

4:157 And their saying: "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, Allah's messenger, and they have not killed him, and they have not crucified him/placed him on a cross, and but (it) resembled/was vague/was doubtful to them, and that those who disagreed/disputed in (about) him (are) in doubt/suspicion from him, (there is) no knowledge for them with (about) him, except following the assumption, and they have not killed him surely/certainly.

4:158 But Allah rose him (Jesus) to Him, and Allah was/is glorious/mighty, wise/judicious.

4:159 And that from The Book's people, except to believe with him (Jesus) before his death, and (on) the Resurrection Day, he (Jesus) will be on them a witness/testifier.

However lets look at what sense your interpretation will make. If you say "mawtihi" ~ his death is refering to Jesus and the sentence before it is saying that the "people of the book but MUST believe in him" would be ironic denoting that they (the people of the book) have up to the time of his(Jesus') death as the Quran says " qabla mawtihi " ~ before his (Jesus') death [in the context] indicating he has not yet died from since the time these words were uttered by our Prophet which was about six hundred years after Jesus.

"and the people of the book but must believe in him (Jesus) BEFORE his death"

You quoted out of contect. This is not the bible sir, we read Quran and understand it in it grammatical structure.

"qabla mawtihi" before his (Its) death is refering to "ahlal-kitaab" ~ People of The Book, which is also masculine, in which the people of the book but must believe in Jesus before they die.

Since it is beyond any reasonable doubt that the Koran parrots Biblical source material, and that your prophet did not piece together the Koran, please show me exegetically who these people were….thanks…

Quote:


وَالسَّلَمُ عَلَيَّيَوْمَ وُلِدْتُ وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَأُبْعَثُ حَيًّا

wa(and) assalam (the peace) alaiya (upon me) yawma (day) wulidtu ( I was born) wa (and) yawma (day) amootu ( I die) wa (and) yawma (day) ub'athu (I am revived) hayyaa (life)

Translation : "and Peace be upon me (Jesus) the day I was born and the day I die and the day I am revived to life" 19:33



I doubt that you know arabic, maybe a little, I dont know, but I find it hard to believe that you read the Quran.

First off, thanks for confirming the accuracy of the rendering that I posited…

Secondly, my posts are straight-forward and verifiable for all that choose to do so.

Any disputes can easily be settled exegetically…

This elementry error you made is from lack of not reading. The same statement is uttered identically for Yahya word for word with the exception of the pronouns.

Perhaps you should show the ayah in context, like I did…..” That (was) Jesus Mary's son, the correct/real saying/opinion and belief which they (are) doubting/arguing in it.”

Quote:


وَسَلَامٌ عَلَيْهِ يَوْمَ وُلِدَ وَيَوْمَ يَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ يُبْعَثُ حَيًّا

wa(and) salamun ( a peace ) alaihi (upon him) yawma (day) wulida ( he was born ) wa (and) yawma (day) yamootu ( he dies) wa (and) yawma (day) yub'athu (he is revived) hayyaa (life)

Translation: "and peace be upon him (Yahya) the day he was born and the day he dies and the day he is revived to life" 19:15


19:33 doest not infer anything to Jesus' crucifixion r him being killed by his enemies in which the Quran clearly refutes. His death occured at the of his accension as it is described in 3:55

Well…please tell me…since you so kindly brought up how the Koran compares John to Jesus in this regard; did John’s death also occur when he ascended?

Quote:
Thus, as you can see for yourself, the Koran specifically calls-out for the death of Jesus.


Yes I would agree but not how you are implimenting it

I appreciate that you are cognizant of the Koranic claim that Jesus died. This already puts you on head and shoulders above many other Muslims who deny this fact.

What is lacking in your reply is your scriptural evidence of when His death occurred…of which, you are willing to only put forth vague Koranic “proof texts” with which to base your theology around.

As initialized by the lead post in this thread; I am looking for individuals who are willing to integrate (what they think they know about the Crucifixion event), with that contained within Sura 86…

Sura 86 greatly crystallizes what the Koran is attempting to communicate…


Thanks once again for your response…

[H2O]

86:فَلْيَنظُرِ الْإِنسَانُ مِمَّ خُلِقَ (5)

خُلِقَ مِن مَّاء دَافِقٍ (86:6)

يَخْرُجُ مِن بَيْنِ الصُّلْبِ وَالتَّرَائِبِ (86:7)

I would like to help my brothers ans sisters out here. Surah 86:5-7 there is no mention of sperm

86:5 fa ( so then) yandhuri (consider) al (the) insaan (man ie male and female) mimma (from what) khuliqa (created)

86:6 khuliqa (created) min (from) maa'a (liquid) daafiqin (ejected)

86:7 yakhruju (coming out) min (from) bayni (between) al (the) sulbi (backbone) wa (and) al (the) taraaa'ib (ribs)

" So then let man (male and female) consider from what they are created from. They are created from ejected liquid coming out from between the backbone and the ribs "

"Man" is translated from the arabic word "al-insaa" which is dual literally meaning "the two human beings" expressing the two gender of male and female.

The mistake here is when people read this they thinkin of only the gender of male when it is refering to both male and female.

"Liquid" is translated from the arabic word "maa'a" whereas there is no word for semen or sperm in the context.

This liquid that both male and female are created from is ejected comming out from between the backbone and the ribs which is the THORAX area of the spinal.

Where in the world you Christians keep having this illusions of semen and sperm is beyond me.

Whos Thorax does this Liquid come out from. It is the Thorax of both male and female and not just the male in which the Subject is refering to both male and female.

So what is this liquid that lodges in the Thorax of both male and female that we are created from ?

Males produce sperm but what is the sperm created from in the body ?

Females produce ovums which are follicles before ovulation. So what is the follicles created from in the body ?

Before they become living organisms ie cells they where created from something in the body.

Now I didnt answer these question cause I wanted you all to expond with them and match the science with it.

[H2O]

Your exegesis has failed to include the sequence marker ثُمَّ “thumma”.

By definition, “thumma” means: Then, Afterwards; Moreover; Mostly used as a conjunction indicating a sequence in line or order to be rendered as Then; Thereafter; Thereupon.

Now I know you dont know arabic. No where in that statement is the word "thumma", this is a blunt lie.

"idz qaala Alllaahu yaa ieesaa innee mutawaffeeka wa raafi'uk ilayya"

When Allah said: " O Jesus I am taking your soul and/while (wa) raising you to me...."

The arabic word used is "wa" not "thumma"

Thus, as you can clearly see, the Koran calls-out for Jesus’ death, THEN His return…thus telling us that His death did not occur during His ascension…

...thumma (and then) ilayya (to me) marji'ukum (return of you~all) fa (then) ahkumu (I will Judge) bayna (between) kum (you~all) feemaa (in what) kuntum ( you all are) feehi (in him) takhtalifoon (disputes)

...and then (thumma) to Me is the return of all of you, then I will judge between you all in your dispute about him (Jesus)

The "Thumma" you are refering to is distinct. The word "You" is translated from the arabic "kum" which is plural in which the statement is not directed to Jesus but now everyone in general. The clause changes after "thumma"

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Unite,

Thanks for your comments…

I agree with H20, ayahs 5 – 8 have absolutely nothing to do with human reproduction…

However, they have everything to do with the Crucifixion of Jesus…


Thanks…

[Apple Pie]

Greetings H2O,

Thanks for your hasty reply…

Now I know you dont know arabic. No where in that statement is the word "thumma", this is a blunt lie.

"idz qaala Alllaahu yaa ieesaa innee mutawaffeeka wa raafi'uk ilayya"

When Allah said: " O Jesus I am taking your soul and/while (wa) raising you to me...."

The arabic word used is "wa" not "thumma"

Open your eyes and see for yourself…

Ith qala Allahu ya AAeesa innee mutawaffeeka warafiAAuka ilayya wamutahhiruka mina allatheena kafaroo wajaAAilu allatheena ittabaAAooka fawqa allatheena kafaroo ila yawmi alqiyamati thumma ilayya marjiAAukum faahkumu baynakum feema kuntum feehi takhtalifoona

When Allah said: "You Jesus I am, I am making you die and raising you to Me and purifying you from those who disbelieved, and making those who followed you above those who disbelieved to the Resurrection Day, then to Me (is) your return, so I judge/rule between you in what, you were in it differing. (3:55)


See it now…?

[H2O]

Greetings Unite,

Thanks for your comments…

I agree with H20, ayahs 5 – 8 have absolutely nothing to do with human reproduction…

However, they have everything to do with the Crucifixion of Jesus…


Thanks…

If you were paying attention you would see my post was incomplete, I reposted it up again. Please go back and read.

Greetings H2O,

Thanks for your hasty reply…


Quote:
Now I know you dont know arabic. No where in that statement is the word "thumma", this is a blunt lie.

"idz qaala Alllaahu yaa ieesaa innee mutawaffeeka wa raafi'uk ilayya"

When Allah said: " O Jesus I am taking your soul and/while (wa) raising you to me...."

The arabic word used is "wa" not "thumma"



Open your eyes and see for yourself…

Ith qala Allahu ya AAeesa innee mutawaffeeka warafiAAuka ilayya wamutahhiruka mina allatheena kafaroo wajaAAilu allatheena ittabaAAooka fawqa allatheena kafaroo ila yawmi alqiyamati thumma ilayya marjiAAukum faahkumu baynakum feema kuntum feehi takhtalifoona

When Allah said: "You Jesus I am, I am making you die and raising you to Me and purifying you from those who disbelieved, and making those who followed you above those who disbelieved to the Resurrection Day, then to Me (is) your return, so I judge/rule between you in what, you were in it differing. (3:55)


See it now…?

Open you eyes and go back and read my post. You have to excuse me I am some technical difficulties, I went back to finish edit my post and it seems it didnt get before you can respond so please go back and re-read the post

[Apple Pie]

Greetings H2O,

Thanks for acknowledging your oversight and subsequent editing of your post…

...thumma (and then) ilayya (to me) marji'ukum (return of you~all) fa (then) ahkumu (I will Judge) bayna (between) kum (you~all) feemaa (in what) kuntum ( you all are) feehi (in him) takhtalifoon (disputes)

...and then (thumma) to Me is the return of all of you, then I will judge between you all in your dispute about him (Jesus)

The "Thumma" you are refering to is distinct. The word "You" is translated from the arabic "kum" which is plural in which the statement is not directed to Jesus but now everyone in general. The clause changes after "thumma"

I agree with you that كُمْ is a masculine plural. However, this hardly excludes Jesus from being part of that group that is indicated by the sequence markers “thumma” and “fa”.


In addition, once you have integrated all of the relevant Koranic ayahs that refer to the death of Jesus, including Sura 86, then you can only come away from the table with one conclusion……that Jesus was indeed Crucified on the cross…


Thanks…

[Apple Pie]

Greetings H2O,

Continuing on with your second quote…

and in their (the Jews) disbelief they spoke against Maryam grave false charges, and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so. And verily those who differed there in (that he was not crucified nor killed) were indeed in doubt about it. They had no knowledge about it except that they followed conjecture, and for surety they killed him not, [color=red]rather Allah raised him up to himself (ref. 3:54-55) and Allah is almighty all wise (Quran 4:156-157)

Let’s look in context…

4:156 And with their disbelief, and their saying on Mary great falsehood/slander.

4:157 And their saying: "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, Allah's messenger, and they have not killed him, and they have not crucified him/placed him on a cross, and but (it) resembled/was vague/was doubtful to them, and that those who disagreed/disputed in (about) him (are) in doubt/suspicion from him, (there is) no knowledge for them with (about) him, except following the assumption, and they have not killed him surely/certainly.

4:158 But Allah rose him (Jesus) to Him, and Allah was/is glorious/mighty, wise/judicious.

4:159 And that from The Book's people, except to believe with him (Jesus) before his death, and (on) the Resurrection Day, he (Jesus) will be on them a witness/testifier.

Summary:

1) AND, their saying: "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, Allah's messenger,
2) AND, they have not killed him,
3) AND, they have not crucified him/placed him on a cross,
4) AND, but (it) resembled/was vague/was doubtful to them,
5) AND, that those who disagreed/disputed in (about) him (are) in doubt/suspicion from him,
6) (there is) no knowledge for them with (about) him,
7) except following the assumption,
8 ) AND, they have not killed him surely/certainly.
9) BUT, Allah rose him (Jesus) to Him,
10) AND, Allah was/is glorious/mighty, wise/judicious.
11) AND, that from The Book's people, except to believe with him (Jesus) before his death,
12) AND, (on) the Resurrection Day, he (Jesus) will be on them a witness/testifier.


Conclusion:

1) They have not killed or crucified Jesus
2) BUT, the person on the cross, resembled Jesus
3) AND, there was doubt regarding his true identity
4) THEN, after Jesus died, allah rose Jesus to himself
5) AND, Jesus will witness to them on the Resurrection day




Notice that the Koran completely acknowledges that a Crucifixion did indeed take place.

Furthermore, Sura 4 attempts to pass-off the whole event by substitution.

Thus, this Koranicly rendered event, as vague as it is, easily allows for the Crucifixion event described in Sura 86. Sura 86, in fact, clears up these passages quite nicely.

No longer do we have to wonder if the one who died on the cross that day was Jesus or not.

As you will discover, Sura 86 unimpeachably confirms to us that it was Jesus!

Furthermore, Jesus will be judging the people on the Resurrection Day. Who else besides God can Judge the dead?!

In addition, by causing this event to “appear to not have transpired” and “fooling” all the people, Allah has then been the sole instigator for the creation of Christianity!

Allah is directly responsible for Christianity!

Thanks, allah!!!

[Apple Pie]

Greetings H2O,

Continuing on with your third quote…

Quote:

[On the Day of Judgement Jesus will say] I did not say to them (the Jews and my followers) but what you commanded me to say that "Worship Allah (In Aramaic Aalah) my Lord and your Lord" and I was a witness over them (the Jews) when I dwelt among them whereas you caused me to decease (ref. 3:54-55) you were the watcher over them and you are a witness over everything (5:116-118)[/color]

Let’s look…


5:116 And when Allah said: "You Jesus Mary's son, did you say to the people 'Take me and my mother (as) two gods from other than Allah?' He (Jesus) said: 'Your praise/glory, (it) is not to be for me that I say what is not for me with (a) right/truth, if I was (had) said it, so You had known it, You know what (is) in my self, and I do not know what (is) in Your self, that You, You (are) all knower (of) the unseen/hidden.'"


مَا قُلْتُ لَهُمْ إِلَّا مَا أَمَرْتَنِي بِهِ أَنْ اعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ وَكُنتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا مَا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنتَ أَنْتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَنْتَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ

Ma qultu lahum illa ma amartanee bihi ani oAAbudoo Allaha rabbee warabbakum wakuntu AAalayhim shaheedan ma dumtu feehim falamma tawaffaytanee kunta anta alrraqeeba AAalayhim waanta AAala kulli shay-in shaheedun

"'I did not say to them except what You ordered/commanded me with it, that worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was on them a witness as long as I continued/lasted in them, so when You caused me to die, You were the guard on them, and you (are) on every thing (an) honest witness.'" (5:117)

تَوَفَّيْتَنِي = “tawaffaytanee”

“tawaffaytanee” definition:

You caused me to die. It comes from the root “wafa”, which means to reach the end, keep ones promise, fulfill ones engagement, pay a debt, perform a promise.

References:

The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 615 -616



5:118 "'If You torture them, so that they are Your worshippers/slaves, and if You forgive for them, so that You are the glorious/mighty, the wise/judicious.'"


Summary:

1) AND, when Allah said: "You Jesus Mary's son, did you say to the people
2) 'Take me and my mother (as) two gods from other than Allah?
3) He (Jesus) said: 'Your praise/glory, (it) is not to be for me that I say what is not for me with (a) right/truth,
4) if I was (had) said it,
5) SO, You had known it,
6) You know what (is) in my self,
7) AND, I do not know what (is) in Your self, that You, You (are) all knower (of) the unseen/hidden.'"
8 ) "'I did not say to them except what You ordered/commanded me with it, that worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord,
9) AND, I was on them a witness as long as I continued/lasted in them,
10) SO, when You caused me to die, You were the guard on them,
11) AND, you (are) on every thing (an) honest witness.'"
12) "'If You torture them,
13) SO, that they are Your worshippers/slaves,
14) AND, if You forgive for them,
15) SO, that You are the glorious/mighty, the wise/judicious.”


Conclusion:

1) The Koran inaccurately portrays the concept of Jesus and His earthly mother Mary as two gods
2) Jesus was a witness to the people
3) Then, He died


Please show me how your quoted ayahs support the idea that Jesus died during His ascension…



Thanks…

[H2O]

I agree with you that كُمْ is a masculine plural. However, this hardly excludes Jesus from being part of that group that is indicated by the sequence markers “thumma” and “fa”.

O really ? Let look at that last phrase

...and then (thumma) to Me is the return of all of you, then I will judge between you all in your dispute about him (Jesus)

Does that sound/look like Jesus is among كم ~ you all ? Anyhow this is for the readers to decide.

When Allah said: "O Jesus I am taking your soul while raising you to me and purifying you from those who disbelieve and placing those who follow you above those who disbelieve till the day of ressurection," and then to Me you all will return and I will judge between you all in you're dispute about him(Jesus)

and in their (the Jews) disbelief they spoke against Maryam grave false charges, and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so. And verily those who differed there in (that he was not crucified nor killed) were indeed in doubt about it. They had no knowledge about it except that they followed conjecture, and for surety they killed him not, rather Allah raised him up to himself (ref. 3:54-55) and Allah is almighty all wise. And the People of the Book but must believe in him before its (the People fo the Book's) death, and on the day of ressurection he will be a witness AGAINST them (Quran 4:156-159)

[H2O]

On the Day of Judgement Jesus will say] I did not say to them (the Jews and my followers) but what you commanded me to say that "Worship Allah (In Aramaic Aalah) my Lord and your Lord" and I was a witness over them (the Jews) when I dwelt among them whereas you caused me to decease (ref. 3:54-55) you were the watcher over them and you are a witness over everything (5:116-118)

VS

"'I did not say to them except what You ordered/commanded me with it, that worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was on them a witness as long as I continued/lasted in them, so when You caused me to die, You were the guard on them, and you (are) on every thing (an) honest witness.'" (5:117)

Can the audience please look at these two translations do you see any differences in meaning between them ?

Dude ! Are you like on beatle juice or something ? There is NO conflict as to the meaning of the word "tawaffee" between us. You probably been having too many debates with other muslims whom you debated this with that held a different view, whereas you have become program in.

There is not difference in " causing you to decease, causing you to die, taking you soul, or caused me to decease, caused me to die, took my soul " they all express one and the same thing "death".

There is nothing to debate about that verse other than the statement of reflects a past action that already took place

Also by the looks of it your using a computer to translate the arabic. How do I know ?....lol....ask Liberate he tried using an online translator that made horable translations like what you are doing. I can tell the difference between Human translation and a bot translation. Bot translation dont know how to EXPRESS words and convey the proper grammatical meanings of the sentences

[Apple Pie]

Greetings H2O,

Thanks for yet another hasty reply…

Quote:


I agree with you that كُمْ is a masculine plural. However, this hardly excludes Jesus from being part of that group that is indicated by the sequence markers “thumma” and “fa”.


O really ? Let look at that last phrase
Quote:


...and then (thumma) to Me is the return of all of you, then I will judge between you all in your dispute about him (Jesus)


Does that sound/look like Jesus is among كم ~ you all ? Anyhow this is for the readers to decide.
Quote:


When Allah said: "O Jesus I am taking your soul while raising you to me and purifying you from those who disbelieve and placing those who follow you above those who disbelieve till the day of ressurection," and then to Me you all will return and I will judge between you all in you're dispute about him(Jesus)

and in their (the Jews) disbelief they spoke against Maryam grave false charges, and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so. And verily those who differed there in (that he was not crucified nor killed) were indeed in doubt about it. They had no knowledge about it except that they followed conjecture, and for surety they killed him not, rather Allah raised him up to himself (ref. 3:54-55) and Allah is almighty all wise. And the People of the Book but must believe in him before its (the People fo the Book's) death, and on the day of ressurection he will be a witness AGAINST them (Quran 4:156-159)

Let’s review…



اِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يَعِيسَى اِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ اِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنْ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا اِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَمَةِ ثُمَّ اِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَاحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنْتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ
Ith qala Allahu ya AAeesa innee mutawaffeeka warafiAAuka ilayya wamutahhiruka mina allatheena kafaroo wajaAAilu allatheena ittabaAAooka fawqa allatheena kafaroo ila yawmi alqiyamati thumma ilayya marjiAAukum faahkumu baynakum feema kuntum feehi takhtalifoona

When Allah said: "You Jesus I am, I am making you die and raising you to Me and purifying you from those who disbelieved, and making those who followed you above those who disbelieved to the Resurrection Day, then to Me (is) your return, so I judge/rule between you in what, you were in it differing. (3:55)


Please show me where the word Jesus is mentioned at the end of this ayah…



Good luck…

[Apple Pie]

Greetings H2O,

Thanks for your reply…

Quote:

On the Day of Judgement Jesus will say] I did not say to them (the Jews and my followers) but what you commanded me to say that "Worship Allah (In Aramaic Aalah) my Lord and your Lord" and I was a witness over them (the Jews) when I dwelt among them whereas you caused me to decease (ref. 3:54-55) you were the watcher over them and you are a witness over everything (5:116-118)


VS
Quote:


"'I did not say to them except what You ordered/commanded me with it, that worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was on them a witness as long as I continued/lasted in them, so when You caused me to die, You were the guard on them, and you (are) on every thing (an) honest witness.'" (5:117)


Can the audience please look at these two translations do you see any differences in meaning between them ?

Dude ! Are you like on beatle juice or something ? There is NO conflict as to the meaning of the word "tawaffee" between us. You probably been having too many debates with other muslims whom you debated this with that held a different view, whereas you have become program in.

There is not difference in " causing you to decease, causing you to die, taking you soul, or caused me to decease, caused me to die, took my soul " they all express one and the same thing "death".

There is nothing to debate about that verse other than the statement of reflects a past action that already took place

Thanks for re-capping what we have already been over.

The point that you are failing to promote is that Jesus dies during His ascension…..remember?

That is what we are exegeting together is it not…?

Also by the looks of it your using a computer to translate the arabic. How do I know ?....lol....ask Liberate he tried using an online translator that made horable translations like what you are doing. I can tell the difference between Human translation and a bot translation. Bot translation dont know how to EXPRESS words and convey the proper grammatical meanings of the sentences

It appears that you are wrong yet again…

Care to give it another guess…?



Thanks…

[H2O]

Please show me where the word Jesus is mentioned at the end of this ayah…

Sure :

...thumma (and then) ilayya (to me) marji'ukum (return of you~all) fa (then) ahkumu (I will Judge) bayna (between) kum (you~all) feemaa (in what) kuntum ( you all are) feehi (in him) takhtalifoon (disputes)

"fee (in/about)" "hi (him)" I thought you knew your Arabic ? The Arabic word "hi ie hu" is the singular masculine third person pronoun refering back to the subject which is Jesus.

If you dont know Arabic then obviously you dont nothing about Arabic grammar.

[H2O]

The point that you are failing to promote is that Jesus dies during His ascension…..remember?

That is what we are exegeting together is it not…?

If you know this then why elaborate on it if is something we agree on ?

Quote:
Also by the looks of it your using a computer to translate the arabic. How do I know ?....lol....ask Liberate he tried using an online translator that made horable translations like what you are doing. I can tell the difference between Human translation and a bot translation. Bot translation dont know how to EXPRESS words and convey the proper grammatical meanings of the sentences


It appears that you are wrong yet again… [the people are to decide that not you]

Care to give it another guess…?

If your not using a bot translator I would guess you are trying free style translating with a dictionary in hand for each word. I payed close attention to your translation the grammar is soo elementary and poor. I know that you dont speak Arabic but I have to say keep on trying, you'll get there, you just need to get the grammar down packed.

[Apple Pie]

Greetings H2O,

Thanks for your reply…

It's nice to see that your posts have been reduced down to this one single solitary point...

Quote:
Please show me where the word Jesus is mentioned at the end of this ayah…


Sure :
Quote:
...thumma (and then) ilayya (to me) marji'ukum (return of you~all) fa (then) ahkumu (I will Judge) bayna (between) kum (you~all) feemaa (in what) kuntum ( you all are) feehi (in him) takhtalifoon (disputes)


"fee (in/about)" "hi (him)" I thought you knew your Arabic ? The Arabic word "hi ie hu" is the singular masculine third person pronoun refering back to the subject which is Jesus.

If you dont know Arabic then obviously you dont nothing about Arabic grammar.

Well…I’m still waiting for you to show me the Arabic word for Jesus – as I very clearly asked for……now…where is it again…?

Additionally, it appears that you have already forgotten what you had stated in a prior post here:

The "Thumma" you are refering to is distinct. The word "You" is translated from the arabic "kum" which is plural in which the statement is not directed to Jesus but now everyone in general. The clause changes after "thumma"

Thus, you already claimed that “thumma” had changed the clause, and that the statements after “thumma” were not “directed to Jesus”.

Now, you apparently are retracting that statement….(I’ll give you time to go back and edit your previous response…again).

Well…what’s it gonna be…?

[Apple Pie]

Greetings H2O,

I must say…where is that graduate degree when you need it…?

Quote:


The point that you are failing to promote is that Jesus dies during His ascension…..remember?

That is what we are exegeting together is it not…?


If you know this then why elaborate on it if is something we agree on ?

Thanks for just admitting that you agree with me that you are unable to Koranicly prove that Jesus died during His ascension…..after all, that was your initial assertion….I’m glad to see that you have recanted of your claim…

Quote:


Quote:
Also by the looks of it your using a computer to translate the arabic. How do I know ?....lol....ask Liberate he tried using an online translator that made horable translations like what you are doing. I can tell the difference between Human translation and a bot translation. Bot translation dont know how to EXPRESS words and convey the proper grammatical meanings of the sentences


It appears that you are wrong yet again… [the people are to decide that not you]

Care to give it another guess…?


If your not using a bot translator I would guess you are trying free style translating with a dictionary in hand for each word. I payed close attention to your translation the grammar is soo elementary and poor. I know that you dont speak Arabic but I have to say keep on trying, you'll get there, you just need to get the grammar down packed.

I have given you ample time to show me your “prowess” in Arabic…..unfortunately, you are showing absolutely no challenge to my position – even though you have had more than enough time in which to do so…

Perhaps you should step aside and let another try their hand…?


Thanks..

[H2O]

Additionally, it appears that you have already forgotten what you had stated in a prior post here:

Quote:
The "Thumma" you are refering to is distinct. The word "You" is translated from the arabic "kum" which is plural in which the statement is not directed to Jesus but now everyone in general. The clause changes after "thumma"


Thus, you already claimed that “thumma” had changed the clause, and that the statements after “thumma” were not “directed to Jesus”.

Now, you apparently are retracting that statement….(I’ll give you time to go back and edit your previous response…again).

No I didnt withdraw from my statement. I said like I did above the clause change in "you" that you thought was directed to Jesus, and then I showed you your error that it was not refering to him cause the pronoun was plural in arabic كم ~ you all . There was no mention of " feehi ~ in/about him " in the context brought up by you, cause you couldnt see it because it was not translated in your translation. If you knew how to read arabic then you would have seen this from the get go.

Pay Attention ! That is my advice to you when debating with me.

[H2O]

Quote:


The point that you are failing to promote is that Jesus dies during His ascension…..remember?

That is what we are exegeting together is it not…?


If you know this then why elaborate on it if is something we agree on ?


Thanks for just admitting that you agree with me that you are unable to Koranicly prove that Jesus died during His ascension…..after all, that was your initial assertion….I’m glad to see that you have recanted of your claim…

Did you hear what I said "If you know this then why elaborate on it if is something we agree on[/b] " I was reterating your statement what i thought you were implying to mutawaffee and tawaffee in which we agreed on.

Not agreeing with you in the terms of the ascension and when it took place.

You arguement came back with "thumma" and your mis interpretation of "you" in which you thought was directed to Jesus

[Apple Pie]

Greetings All,


I am looking for individuals that want to challenge my position regarding Sura 86…

Are there any interested parties…?



Thanks…

[H2O]

Of course what he meant is that if you have an imaginary mind like his then you are worthy of his challenge.

Wow lets see I guess we can use the Quran to come up with our own interpretation in the bible then. I think I will give that a shot..brb

[Apple Pie]

Greetings H2O,

Thanks for your vacillating replies…

No I didnt withdraw from my statement. I said like I did above the clause change in "you" that you thought was directed to Jesus, and then I showed you your error that it was not refering to him cause the pronoun was plural in arabic كم ~ you all .

Then “you all” can include Jesus as well…

There was no mention of " feehi ~ in/about him " in the context brought up by you, cause you couldnt see it because it was not translated in your translation. If you knew how to read arabic then you would have seen this from the get go.

Well….please translate this ayah for me then….as it contains the very same sequence…


اللَّهُ يَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَمَةِ فِيمَا كُنْتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

Of course what he meant is that if you have an imaginary mind like his then you are worthy of his challenge.

Wow lets see I guess we can use the Quran to come up with our own interpretation in the bible then. I think I will give that a shot..brb

When you are finished with your Red Herrings, please let me know when you might be willing to refute my exegesis of Sura 86…or...better yet….send someone my way that has a post-graduate degree…


Take care…

[Unite]

Apple pie, when someone does not pay attention/give a damn to makeup fictious and fake theories it does not mean that they are irrefutable. 86 has nothing to do with that....Get a life...

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Unite,

Thanks for your comment…

Apple pie, when someone does not pay attention/give a damn to makeup fictious and fake theories it does not mean that they are irrefutable. 86 has nothing to do with that....Get a life...

Unfortunately, you have shown no evidence contrary to my exegesis….thus, as it is, my exegesis stands un-refuted…


Thanks for trying, though…....and please don't be angry...


Take care…

[H2O]

Well….please translate this ayah for me then….as it contains the very same sequence…


اللَّهُ يَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَمَةِ فِيمَا كُنْتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

Transliteration: ....alllaahu (Allah) yahkumu ( will judge) baynakum (between you all) yawma (day) al (the) qiyamati ( ressurection) feemaa (in/about what) kuntum ( you all were) feehi ( in/about him) takhtalifoona (disputing)

Translation: .....Allah will judge between you all on the day of ressurection in what you all were disputing about him

[Apple Pie]

Greetings H2O,

Thanks for responding…..

Quote:

Well….please translate this ayah for me then….as it contains the very same sequence…


اللَّهُ يَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَمَةِ فِيمَا كُنْتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ


Transliteration: ....alllaahu (Allah) yahkumu ( will judge) baynakum (between you all) yawma (day) al (the) qiyamati ( ressurection) feemaa (in/about what) kuntum ( you all were) feehi ( in/about him) takhtalifoona (disputing)

Translation: .....Allah will judge between you all on the day of ressurection in what you all were disputing about him

So….then please tell me who “him” is…?



Now….how about exegeting Sura 86 with me….?

Or…should I take your utter avoidance of Sura 86 as acknowledgment that my exegesis and conclusion is correct?


The ball is in your court…

[H2O]

So….then please tell me who “him” is…?

"him" is refered back to the subject which is the object of the verb "dispute" whom is Jesus

Pay attention Allah said "..I will judge between you all.." if Jesus is among "you all" being addressed then that would mean he will also be judged.

Now….how about exegeting Sura 86 with me….?

Or…should I take your utter avoidance of Sura 86 as acknowledgment that my exegesis and conclusion is correct?

I read your post on Surah 86 I think its darn silly . Your using the bible to interpret Quran but yet the Quran is not the word of G-D according christianity.

Unlike us we believe in the original word for word text of the Torah and Injeel etc that the prophets recieved from Allah which had been handed down to us altered, so in order for us to distinguish what was the original message of Allah we use the Quran as a criterion (furqaan) and an authenticator (Musadiq)

However this is not the position of christianity. Thats why I have not entertained your ecclesiastical concepts of the Quran from Biblical ideology.

I find it vain to waste my time with it when the Quranic verses I posted up makes its clear. How you want to interpret it that your problem I think the people who will read this would have enough common sense to determine.

[Apple Pie]

Greetings H2O,

Thanks for your reply…

Quote:
So….then please tell me who “him” is…?


"him" is refered back to the subject which is the object of the verb "dispute" whom is Jesus

Pay attention Allah said "..I will judge between you all.." if Jesus is among "you all" being addressed then that would mean he will also be judged.

Wait….let me get this straight….”him” is Jesus in the ayah that I had you translate?

Yes…or…No?

Quote:


Now….how about exegeting Sura 86 with me….?

Or…should I take your utter avoidance of Sura 86 as acknowledgment that my exegesis and conclusion is correct?




I read your post on Surah 86 I think its darn silly . Your using the bible to interpret Quran but yet the Quran is not the word of G-D according christianity.

I’ll take this remark as a forfeit on your part to even attempt at refuting my exegesis…thanks…

I have to ask…why did you even bother replying to this thread if you are incapable of sticking to the material contained within it…?

Please don’t keep allowing your “degree” to be a stumbling block for you and my direct challenge toward you to exegete Sura 86….

You know that I am correct.

Just be a man and admit it…

Don’t let blind Muslim “pride” and/or rage keep you from acknowledging the truth in my exegesis…

Unlike us we believe in the original word for word text of the Torah and Injeel etc that the prophets recieved from Allah which had been handed down to us altered, so in order for us to distinguish what was the original message of Allah we use the Quran as a criterion (furqaan) and an authenticator (Musadiq)

Please tell me…was the Koran written in Hebrew or Greek…?

Yes…or…No?

The answer is obviously a resounding NO…

The Koran is a mere attempt at translating the Hebrew and Greek into Arabic….

Not very original, now is it?

The Koran is a mere imitation of its source...the Holy Bible...

However this is not the position of christianity. Thats why I have not entertained your ecclesiastical concepts of the Quran from Biblical ideology.

I find it vain to waste my time with it when the Quranic verses I posted up makes its clear. How you want to interpret it that your problem I think the people who will read this would have enough common sense to determine.

Again, I will take your complete and utter silence regarding my exegesis as proof positive that I have the correct exegesis….thanks once again for this…

After all, if I had errors in my exegesis, then you would have jumped all over them right from the start. However, it is crystal clear that you have had ample time in which to critique my exegesis of Sura 86, and the best that your “graduate” degree can come up with is to posit Koranic ayahs not even from Sura 86, as your defense.

With all due respect, should I laugh now…or later…?

I think that we all know what you can do with the “degree” that you are hiding behind.

Does “file 13” mean anything to you…?


You are now dismissed to go back into your little corner, lick your wounds, and bark-out why things just cannot be this way in Sura 86…



Thanks…

[H2O]

Wait….let me get this straight….”him” is Jesus in the ayah that I had you translate

Yea sure .

When Allah said: " O Jesus verily I am taking your soul while raising you to me and purifying you from those who disbelieve, and placing those who follow you above those who are disbelievers to the day of ressurection", and then to me is the return of you all, then I will judge between you all in what you all were disputing about him

Yup that is ayah 3:55

[Apple Pie]

Greetings H2O,

Thanks for your reply…

Quote:
Wait….let me get this straight….”him” is Jesus in the ayah that I had you translate


Yea sure .

Quote:


When Allah said: " O Jesus verily I am taking your soul while raising you to me and purifying you from those who disbelieve, and placing those who follow you above those who are disbelievers to the day of ressurection", and then to me is the return of you all, then I will judge between you all in what you all were disputing about him


Yup that is ayah 3:55

Allow me to show you the ayah that I had you translate….


اللَّهُ يَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَمَةِ فِيمَا كُنْتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

Allahu yahkumu baynakum yawma alqiyamati feema kuntum feehi takhtalifoona

"Allah judges/rules between you (on) the Resurrection Day, in what you were in it differing/disagreeing . (22:69)


The interesting part of this is that you are adamant about translating “feehi” as Jesus even in a Koranic verse that not once mentions Jesus in the entire Sura!

Care to explain why you would want to insist that Jesus have such a close association with Allah?




Additionally, thanks for confirming (by your utter silence) that my exegesis and conclusion of Sura 86 is correct:

1) Jesus is worshiped as deity
2) Jesus is Crucified
3) Jesus is Resurrected
4) Jesus judges the dead


All this….nice and neat…in Sura 86……and, best of all….you don’t deny it…..!


Most excellent….

[H2O]

Allow me to show you the ayah that I had you translate….


اللَّهُ يَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَمَةِ فِيمَا كُنْتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

Allahu yahkumu baynakum yawma alqiyamati feema kuntum feehi takhtalifoona

"Allah judges/rules between you (on) the Resurrection Day, in what you were in it differing/disagreeing . (22:69)


The interesting part of this is that you are adamant about translating “feehi” as Jesus even in a Koranic verse that not once mentions Jesus in the entire Sura!

Care to explain why you would want to insist that Jesus have such a close association with Allah?

I translated "feehi" as " in/about him" . what you need to go do is go look up "hi" which is a suffix participle and third person singular masuline pronoun of هو ~ "huwa" meaning "he" and sometimes generic for "it"

WARNING: Becareful how you answer this

[Apple Pie]

Greetings H2O,

Thanks for your reply…

Quote:
Allow me to show you the ayah that I had you translate….


اللَّهُ يَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَمَةِ فِيمَا كُنْتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

Allahu yahkumu baynakum yawma alqiyamati feema kuntum feehi takhtalifoona

"Allah judges/rules between you (on) the Resurrection Day, in what you were in it differing/disagreeing . (22:69)


The interesting part of this is that you are adamant about translating “feehi” as Jesus even in a Koranic verse that not once mentions Jesus in the entire Sura!

Care to explain why you would want to insist that Jesus have such a close association with Allah?


I translated "feehi" as " in/about him" . what you need to go do is go look up "hi" which is a suffix participle and third person singular masuline pronoun of هو ~ "huwa" meaning "he" and sometimes generic for "it"

WARNING: Becareful how you answer this

Well now...isn’t this most interesting.

First off, you make no excuse for closely coupling Jesus to Allah, from an ayah in which the entire Sura in no way, shape, or form mentions Jesus directly or indirectly.

You just assume that it must be referring to Jesus.

I must say……how nice of you…

Secondly, it is only now that you bring forth your unreferenced definition of “hi”…

Furthermore, it is “huwa” that is an indeclinable personal pronoun of the 3rd person, masculine, singular.

Reference:

The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 596



Again…..where is your rebuttal to Sura 86…?

Got the nerve up yet to exegete the ayahs of Sura 86 together with me…or are you just going to pretend that it does not exist….and that it will all go away…

Just keep clicking your heels together…Dorothy….



Take care…

[H2O]

I translated "feehi" as " in/about him" . what you need to go do is go look up "hi" which is a suffix participle[particle] and third person singular masuline pronoun of هو ~ "huwa" meaning "he" and sometimes generic for "it" ~ H2O

Secondly, it is only now that you bring forth your unreferenced definition of “hi”…

Furthermore, it is “huwa” that is an indeclinable personal pronoun of the 3rd person, masculine, singular.

((((((My mistake I meant "particle" not participle)))))))

Lesson one in Arabic. What are Arabic particles ? Do you know your Arabic particles of pronouns ? I take it that you dont when you dont even know a simple elementary teaching. If you were learning Arabic like you were suppose to, in beginners class you learn not just the meaning of words but their particles. "hi"[grammatical expressing the object of a verb] which is "hu" is the particle of "huwa" as it is suffixed to "fee" in "fee-hi" ~ in/about him

You are not even a rookie yet. Your still fumbling with a language that you havent even passed much less began the elementary level. But yet you want to debate with me about the Arabic , how silly of you. You cant even identify grammar functions in order to translate them.

Why didnt I mention it ? It was to test you to see how much Arabic you know. When you made the stupid error by implying "you" in the address by Allah was directed to Jesus you didnt even know the pronoun was plural in Arabic.

Now I slapped you with the "fee-hi" that you missed, cause you dont know Arabic but merely being experimental with it, you became which had you in delima.

Yup and that dictionary cant teach you what Arabic particles are either you have to go get and Arabic grammar book. Dictionaries dont provide lessons on arabic forms of speach and what particles and particles, suffixes, prefixes, and tanween are and how they function.

Right now I classify you as pre-rookie. Go learn some more arabic , when you are able to converse with me in arabic then we can debate about surah 86.

Note: Dont worry I am going to be around for a very very LONG time. . By time I am finished with some of you you will be Arabic speaking Christians

Oh by the way Apple Pie here is a good online tool to debate with. Its an online Arabic lexicon. I hope you know how to use it http://alqamoos.sakhr.com/

[whosurdaddy]

Pay attention Allah said "..I will judge between you all.." if Jesus is among "you all" being addressed then that would mean he will also be judged.
================================
John Chapter 5) vs. 22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgement to the Son". vs25 "Most assuredly. I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of GOD: and those that hear will live."

Jesus is declaring himself GOD in the flesh with these statements. If you read between the lines, you will see it.

[H2O]

whosurdaddy !

Remember Jesus (In the Quran) will be a witness AGAINST the people of the book who deified him. There is no Secret in that. He is going to be a witness, just like all the rest of the other prophets, against those who are being judged, but they will not be the ones judged cause they will be witnesses

and the People of the Book but must believe in him before its death and on the day of resurrection he will be a witness against them (Quran 4:159)

On the day of Judgement

and when Allah will say: " O Jesus Son of Maryam ! Did you say to mankind to" take me and my mother as gods besides Allah" ? He(Jesus will) say: " Glorified are you ! It was not of me to say that what I had no right to say. If I had said it, then you would have known it. You know best what is in my self and I do not know what is in your self. Verily you, you are ominiscient of the hidden (Quran 5:116)

Thus have We made of you all an Ummat justly balanced, that you all might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger (Muhammad) a witness over yourselves; and we appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (from the Faith). Indeed it was (a change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people most surely full of Kindness, Most Merciful.
(Quran 2:143)

Who doth more wrong than those who invent a lie against Allah? They will be turned back to the presence of their Lord, and the witnesses will say, "These are the ones who lied against their Lord! Behold! The curse of Allah is on those who do wrong!
(Quran 11:18)

One day We shall raise from every nation a witness against them, from amongst themselves: and We shall raise you (Muhammad) as a witness against these (disbelievers): and We have sent down to you (Muhammad) a Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to those who submit. (Quran 16:89)

I think you get the point now

[Apple Pie]

Greetings H2O,

Thanks for your comments.

I must say, Just look at the nerve that I have struck with you…let’s look at what this bull’s-eye ringer has produced today…

((((((My mistake I meant "particle" not participle)))))))

Thanks for admitting this error…

Lesson one in Arabic. What are Arabic particles ? Do you know your Arabic particles of pronouns ? I take it that you dont when you dont even know a simple elementary teaching. If you were learning Arabic like you were suppose to, in beginners class you learn not just the meaning of words but their particles. "hi"[grammatical expressing the object of a verb] which is "hu" is the particle of "huwa" as it is suffixed to "fee" in "fee-hi" ~ in/about him

Please tell me…..how does this help you out of your Jesus predicament that you boxed yourself so nicely into…?

You are not even a rookie yet. Your still fumbling with a language that you havent even passed much less began the elementary level. But yet you want to debate with me about the Arabic , how silly of you. You cant even identify grammar functions in order to translate them.

Why didnt I mention it ? It was to test you to see how much Arabic you know. When you made the stupid error by implying "you" in the address by Allah was directed to Jesus you didnt even know the pronoun was plural in Arabic.

Now I slapped you with the "fee-hi" that you missed, cause you dont know Arabic but merely being experimental with it, you became which had you in delima.

Yup and that dictionary cant teach you what Arabic particles are either you have to go get and Arabic grammar book. Dictionaries dont provide lessons on arabic forms of speach and what particles and particles, suffixes, prefixes, and tanween are and how they function.

Right now I classify you as pre-rookie. Go learn some more arabic , when you are able to converse with me in arabic then we can debate about surah 86.

Thanks for the tongue lashing.

This tells me that I have hit major paydirt…!

I like the title you gave me…” pre-rookie”…

Let’s do a quick recap of what this “pre-rookie” has done to the “Master Degreed” H20, already in this one single solitary thread…

1) I posted my exegesis of Sura 86
2) You (with your “Masters Degree”) refuse to even exegete a single solitary ayah from Sura 86 with me even after a direct challenge to do so…thus confirming that my exegesis is rock solid
3) Instead, rather than directly confronting ANY of the 17 ayahs in Sura 86, you decide to Red Herring three clusters of Koranic ayahs in which you feel somehow “supports” your position
4) I then proceed to systematically refute these three groups of Red Herrings, one by one
5) Then you call me a “liar” for catching the first of several obvious errors in your exegesis
6) Realizing your obvious error, you quickly go back and edit your prior post to include what I already mentioned
7) Then You (with your “Masters Degree”) have zero rebuttal on two of the three rebuttals that I posited…thus confirming to me that at least two of your three salvos were complete and utter “duds” and are unworthy of rescue
8 ) Now…your entire argument has been pigeon-holed down to your understanding of “feehi”…of which you adamantly proclaim refers to Jesus even in a Sura that fails to direct or indirectly mention His name.



So…..please tell me…just how does it feel to have your Koran handed to you on a silver platter by a “pre-rookie”?

Note: Dont worry I am going to be around for a very very LONG time. . By time I am finished with some of you you will be Arabic speaking Christians

I’m glad to hear that you will be with us for quite a spell….perhaps more time is exactly what you need to get up your nerve to refute my exegesis of Sura 86…

Oh by the way Apple Pie here is a good online tool to debate with. Its an online Arabic lexicon. I hope you know how to use it http://alqamoos.sakhr.com/

With all due respect, you call Ajeeb a “good online tool to debate with”?

If you knew anything about exegeting the Arabic of the Koran, then you would know that Ajeeb will do little to nothing for you.

I use nothing but the highest quality CLASSIC Arabic lexicons to deliver my exegesis.

I think that you know where you can file your Modern Arabic online translations…

Please tap me on the shoulder when your “Master’s degree” finally decides to actually kick-in…

BTW…thanks for taking my advice and tucking-away your original signature…..trust me…it will save you from further embarrassment…


Take care…

[H2O]

When Allah said: " O Jesus verily I am taking your soul while raising you to me and purifying you from those who disbelieve, and placing those who follow you above those who are disbelievers to the day of ressurection", and then to me is the return of you all, then I will judge between you all in what you all were disputing about him (Quran 3:55)

and in their (the Jews) disbelief they spoke against Maryam grave false charges, and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so. And verily those who differed there in (that he was not crucified nor killed) were indeed in doubt about it. They had no knowledge about it except that they followed conjecture, and for surety they killed him not, rather Allah raised him up to himself (ref. 3:54-55) and Allah is almighty all wise. And the People of the Book but must believe in him before its (the People fo the Book's) death, and on the day of ressurection he will be a witness AGAINST them (Quran 4:156-159)


This is excplicit and clear that automatically denies your interpretation of Surah 86 that you claim to refer to Jesus. I rest my case and leave the rest to the audience.

[Apple Pie]

Greetings H2O,

Let’s see if you are ready to exegete…

When Allah said: " O Jesus verily I am taking your soul while raising you to me and purifying you from those who disbelieve, and placing those who follow you above those who are disbelievers to the day of ressurection", and then to me is the return of you all, then I will judge between you all in what you all were disputing about him (Quran 3:55)

and in their (the Jews) disbelief they spoke against Maryam grave false charges, and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so. And verily those who differed there in (that he was not crucified nor killed) were indeed in doubt about it. They had no knowledge about it except that they followed conjecture, and for surety they killed him not, rather Allah raised him up to himself (ref. 3:54-55) and Allah is almighty all wise. And the People of the Book but must believe in him before its (the People fo the Book's) death, and on the day of ressurection he will be a witness AGAINST them (Quran 4:156-159)


This is excplicit and clear that automatically denies your interpretation of Surah 86 that you claim to refer to Jesus. I rest my case and leave the rest to the audience.

Amazing….

You coped-out on me yet again.

I ask you to make a direct reply to my rebuttals and you cannot even do this….

Seriously…..where is that degree when you need it…?

Masters….smashters….lol….


Please go back to your corner……




Thanks…

[whosurdaddy]

When Allah said: " O Jesus verily I am taking your soul while raising you to me and purifying you from those who disbelieve, and placing those who follow you above those who are disbelievers to the day of ressurection", and then to me is the return of you all, then I will judge between you all in what you all were disputing about him (Quran 3:55)

and in their (the Jews) disbelief they spoke against Maryam grave false charges, and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so. And verily those who differed there in (that he was not crucified nor killed) were indeed in doubt about it. They had no knowledge about it except that they followed conjecture, and for surety they killed him not, rather Allah raised him up to himself (ref. 3:54-55) and Allah is almighty all wise. And the People of the Book but must believe in him before its (the People fo the Book's) death, and on the day of ressurection he will be a witness AGAINST them (Quran 4:156-159)


This is excplicit and clear that automatically denies your interpretation of Surah 86 that you claim to refer to Jesus. I rest my case and leave the rest to the audience.

======================================
One thing certain from reading this is the style of writing is crude in format. Certainly, the writer was not divinely inspired. Show me which parts of the Bible are so crudely written. This is similiar in style to the gospel of Thomas or the book of Mormon.
Why is it you believe in the Koran, yet you reject the Bible? Simply because you were taught that way? When was the Bible corrupted? Before or after Mohammed? The Koran states that the Bible is infallible. Islam, like all cults, plays hopschotch with words. Show them their error, they change the subject.

[Apple Pie]

Greetings whosurdaddy,

I appreciate your comments…

It is true what you speak…the Koran contains only praise for the Holy Bible. In fact, there is not a single ayah in the entire Koran which states that the written word of God (the Holy Bible), to be in error.

The Muslim polemic that states that the Holy Bible needs to be corrected and clarified is Muslim rhetoric that was started when they discovered that the Koran was a poor attempt at copying the Holy Bible.

We have to give the authors of the Koran some credit though. They did manage to retain Jesus’ deity throughout the entire Koran – especially in Sura 86.

However, centuries of Muslim bias and sheer ignorance has clouded the original messages of the Koran…


Take care…

[whosurdaddy]

Greetings whosurdaddy,

I appreciate your comments…

It is true what you speak…the Koran contains only praise for the Holy Bible. In fact, there is not a single ayah in the entire Koran which states that the written word of God (the Holy Bible), to be in error.

The Muslim polemic that states that the Holy Bible needs to be corrected and clarified is Muslim rhetoric that was started when they discovered that the Koran was a poor attempt at copying the Holy Bible.

We have to give the authors of the Koran some credit though. They did manage to retain Jesus’ deity throughout the entire Koran – especially in Sura 86.

However, centuries of Muslim bias and sheer ignorance has clouded the original messages of the Koran…


Take care…

=======================
Apple Pie, this is a great website I stumbled upon. I'm learning about Islam from reading these posts. I was discussing Islam to some Catholic on-line recently, and he believes Allah is God's name. Many other Catholics agreed with him. Then he said the gospel of John was "probably not divinely inspired". Amazing how many don't know the facts.

[zampeada]

i only believed that Isa survived from the attempt of killing him, either natural way or humiliating and painful such as crucify.

jews believed that they killed him, but they was wronged. they are too soon to assume he was death.

isa survived and live to old age. not ascended to heaven as most muslim scholars believed. there was no second coming!

that what i believed.

[whosurdaddy]

i only believed that Isa survived from the attempt of killing him, either natural way or humiliating and painful such as crucify.

jews believed that they killed him, but they was wronged. they are too soon to assume he was death.

isa survived and live to old age. not ascended to heaven as most muslim scholars believed. there was no second coming!

that what i believed.

===========================
Isa is Jesus? Maybe you believe this account because you were taught to believe it as true.? What you're saying is not true. Someone invented this account and you believed without examining the facts. No one believed this until Muhammed. Muhammed made this up in order to fool people.

[Apple Pie]

Greetings zampeada,

Thanks for your comments...

i only believed that Isa survived from the attempt of killing him, either natural way or humiliating and painful such as crucify.

jews believed that they killed him, but they was wronged. they are too soon to assume he was death.

isa survived and live to old age. not ascended to heaven as most muslim scholars believed. there was no second coming!

that what i believed.

Do you have any scriptures that support what you believe...?



Thanks...

[Karaite]

i only believed that Isa survived from the attempt of killing him, either natural way or humiliating and painful such as crucify.

jews believed that they killed him, but they was wronged. they are too soon to assume he was death.

isa survived and live to old age. not ascended to heaven as most muslim scholars believed. there was no second coming!

that what i believed.

So, where did he go to?

Tell me, what was the purpose of his coming, anyway? If he was going to run away like that, to never come back, what was he doing there in the first place?

When the people sought to kill Mohammed, did he run away to never come back? As history tells us, HE DID NOT! Why? Because he had a mission, right? So, what happened with the miraculous Isaa? Why would he forsake the mission "Allah" gave hiim?

[Omega]

i only believed that Isa survived from the attempt of killing him, either natural way or humiliating and painful such as crucify.

jews believed that they killed him, but they was wronged. they are too soon to assume he was death.

isa survived and live to old age. not ascended to heaven as most muslim scholars believed. there was no second coming!

that what i believed.

Hello Zampeada!

If one carefully and diligently studies the scriptures in the Bible and examine carefully the very words of God Himself spoken by Jesus utilizing The Holy Spirit within then , anyone can see clearly that The Quran is not a divine studying tool but a book which was devised by clever demons to fool Christians in the very last days, anyone here can disagree with me if they want to, thats on them.

If The Quran can substantiate the deity of Jesus then Allah is Jesus,???
Jesus is not Allah and vice versa, theological studies and what not is also a clever tool used by deceiving spirits to fool christians in the last days to turn to the Quran and worship another god which they will fall victim to in these very last days! If a christian finds himslef worshipping The Antichrist and false prophet, go figure!

This is a warning, I could care less what anyone on this forum has to say in regards to what i have written. Rapture time is right at the doors, the question is"Who do you worship?"

Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Fulfill? Hmmm.,.....Why would we need another book? When the Bible divinely inspired not only by men and women filled with the Holy Spirit but was also spoken by God Himself.Jesus clearly said: John 8:32 - And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

So it was the people in His generation Jesus was speaking to, so how would they know the truth and be set free from another source called the Quran which would not come into existence til aftrer their DEAD!

If one does not believe that Jesus was indeed Crucified and rose again on the Third day then not only have they been deceived but their very soul is on the line.

God Bless!

Luke 11:13 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

[whosurdaddy]

So, where did he go to?

Tell me, what was the purpose of his coming, anyway? If he was going to run away like that, to never come back, what was he doing there in the first place?

When the people sought to kill Mohammed, did he run away to never come back? As history tells us, HE DID NOT! Why? Because he had a mission, right? So, what happened with the miraculous Isaa? Why would he forsake the mission "Allah" gave hiim?
==============================
Here is your answer... " Behold , we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn him to death, and deliver him to the gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day he will rise again." matthew 20 vs18

[H2O]

i only believed that Isa survived from the attempt of killing him, either natural way or humiliating and painful such as crucify.

jews believed that they killed him, but they was wronged. they are too soon to assume he was death.

isa survived and live to old age. not ascended to heaven as most muslim scholars believed. there was no second coming!

that what i believed.

Yes, I believe that there will be no second coming as well. However, the views about the ascension is divided among muslims yes in deed.

Some look at "rafi'a" ~ to be raised as meaning " he was raised to a place of honor just as another prophet in the Quran was also raised etc." but his body remains somewhere on earth like his mother's.

Then some others believe he was actually physically raised and raised to a place of honor with all the righteous prophets who have passed away in the past.

Then third party believes just like the Christians believe that he is somewhere in heaven alive and will return

I would settle for he was physically raised and raised to honor cause if he was left here on earth more than likely his follower would have built a Dome over his grave, I mean look at what they are doing with items that they claim to be associated with him. Jus imagine if Christians knew where hsi burial was every christian would have made this a pilgrimage over flooding Al-Quds.

I some what though have been taking into consideration the first view held by zampeada. Why? Where is Maryam grave at ? She just disappears like her son from the face of the earth. I wonder if they ever find her grave would there be a second body burried next to hers ?Also Allah said in the Quran the likeness of Jesus (Isa) is like Adam both are Allah's word that He created, and also Adam died on this earth somewhere unknown to men.

Now why do the Jews reject him as being a false prophet and messiah ? The more that Christians bost about the crucifixion the more it confirms the jewish beliefs he was an imposter this is [this is one main reason out of many].

They Judged him by the Torah and in their eyes if he was a true prophet and messiah of G-D He would not have allowed him to die under the Torah cause the Torah ruling was for the conviction of imposters. So if you believe he was crucified then indirectly you are affirming he was an imposter cause ONLY an imposter prophet and messiah could have died such a humiliating punishment.

Deut: 18:
17 The LORD said to me[Moses]: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

Deut. 21:
22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

This is the ruling on one who claimed to be a Prophet of G-D in which Jesus was charged by the Jewish Sanhedrin of being an imposter and for blasphemy. Paul being aware of this whom was more than like confronted with this among the Jews Justified this in his letter:

Galatians 3
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith

.

Now do you understand why the Jews rejected him ? If he was not an imposter and their charges were false against him G-D would have saved him from such humilation of a CURSE.

And also, being that Jesus was put to death by the Law then Deut 18:18 (But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.") is without doubt not refered to Jesus, as the Messiah and the Prophet to come where to different firgures in Jewish expectations.

John the Baptist Denies Being the Christ

John 1:

19Now this was John's testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. 20He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, "I am not the Christ.[7] "
21They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?"
He said, "I am not."
"Are you the Prophet?"
He answered, "No."

1) I am not the Christ.
2) Are you Elijah?
3) Are you the Prophet

There were three Jewish expectations in which John the Batist acknowledged not being any of them, with the exception that he was the one who fulfilled the coming of Elijah, in the spirit and power off.

and in their (the Jews) disbelief they spoke against Maryam grave false charges, and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so. And verily those who differed there in (that he was not crucified nor killed) were indeed in doubt about it. They had no knowledge about it except that they followed conjecture, and for surety they killed him not, rather Allah raised him up to himself (ref. 3:54-55) and Allah is almighty all wise. And the People of the Book but must believe in him before its (the People fo the Book's) death, and on the day of ressurection he will be a witness AGAINST them (Quran 4:156-159)

This verse confirms he wasnt Crucified nor killed by his enemies. Thus puts the Jews who reject him on in conviction of their denial of the Messiah that they thaught was an imposted in which they are commanded that they MUST BELIEVE in him before their death.

O by the way Apple Pie dont think I forgot about our discussion on the other forum about Istawaa, but I want you to go find out who Abdul Omar Mannan ( The Author of the Dictionary of the Quran you are using) is the son of. He is the son of Maulana Noor Ud Din.....lol. If you only knew what you have in your hand you would probably burn that dictionary. Put it this way does name Ahmadiyyah of Lahore ring a bell . Go research who the Ahmadiyyah movement is and who Maulana Noor Ud Din is, your going to be . But anyhow I am still going to persue our discussion on the other forum, but I am giving you a hint of what I am going to come at you with in criticism of that Dictionary you have

[whosurdaddy]

You are talking about so many things. You need to decide first if the Bible is true. If you say "yes" then I can box you into a corner. Many jews did accept Jesus. Only the most evil of jews rejected him. The miracles he did convinced many he was the Messiah.

"Now it came to pass, while he blessed them, that he left them and was carried up into heaven. And they worshipped him..." Luke 24 vs 51

Its as clear as day that he rose from the dead. The reason people built shrines and collected relics is because many of them came from paganism.

[Karaite]

H20,

I have not received any responses from you, I have already prepared my paper on Deuteronomy 18, just waiting for you to give the go ahead.

They Judged him by the Torah and in their eyes if he was a true prophet and messiah of G-D He would not have allowed him to die under the Torah cause the Torah ruling was for the conviction of imposters. So if you believe he was crucified then indirectly you are affirming he was an imposter cause ONLY an imposter prophet and messiah could have died such a humiliating punishment.

You are ignoring that fact that it is this precise fact that makes him the Messiah. For "he made himself an offering for guilt" (i.e., offering for SIN).

Your argument that the Jews rejected him is quite weak, because in the first century, the Church was composed mainly of Jews, and there were many Doctors of the Law (Pharisees, Paul included). It was not until after the destruction of the Temple, in 70 AD, that they began drifting away.

[H2O]

You are ignoring that fact that it is this precise fact that makes him the Messiah. For "he made himself an offering for guilt" (i.e., offering for SIN).

Your argument that the Jews rejected him is quite weak, because in the first century, the Church was composed mainly of Jews, and there were many Doctors of the Law (Pharisees, Paul included). It was not until after the destruction of the Temple, in 70 AD, that they began drifting away.

Actually on the contrary your missing the point. I laid down the foundation of why the Jews rejected him even till today. I was not talking about those Jews who followed him, that is not what i am talking about. Also Jesus was Rejected my most Jews, and even those who believed in him were divided among themselves about him. Also to the Fact Jesus gained more non Jewish followers than than Jews.

In Orthadox Judaism their concept of the role of the Messiah is much different of that to Christians. There is no concept in Jewdaism that they were waiting for a Messiah to come to die for their sins and to be a living human sacrifice for all mankind. This is pharasee dogma incorporated with some new Christian interpretation of the old testament to refer to the forshadow of the coming of Jesus.

I would advise you sincerily to go study Pharasee doctrine. Paul was a Pharasee that accepted Jesus but still carried on his Pharasee teaching in is doctrine of Christ. Everthing he taught is a step by step mimic of the Pharasee doctrine that he did no abolish in is his doctrine

Karaite, We still have to come to some agreements as to the rules to be laid. so far both of us agree to 65% of the rules the other part there is still question

[Karaite]

Actually on the contrary your missing the point. I laid down the foundation of why the Jews rejected him even till today.

You are using circular reasoning. The Jews rejected him BEFORE his hanging, so how can you use that argument?

It is called a new rationalization; the Jews added and changed many of their views, in order to reject Jesus.

I was not talking about those Jews who followed him, that is not what i am talking about.

But why should they not count? If your argument is about the Jewish perspective, then why did they have divided opinions, then? How can you uphold one above the other, simply because one rejects your own argument?

Those who believed in Jesus, what was their problem? Why did they understand that as being a proper interpretation?

Think about it, you are using modern Jewish interpretation, against ancient Jewish interpretation; how can your argument stand? This is in spite of the fact that, the ancient holds an apparent higher seat to that of the modern, for the fact that it came first.

Also Jesus was Rejected my most Jews, and even those who believed in him were divided among themselves about him.

But this does not support your argument, because they rejected Jesus before HIS HANGING! So, this actually rejects your argument that they reject him because of the hanging. It can easily be argued that later changes to their interpretations are due to the fact of their REJECTION of Christ, and not that their rejection of Christ is due to their interpretation.

Yes, we can argue that modern rejection may arise from interpretations, but that, as I said before, is a modern rationalization, and it has very little bearing on the reason for rejecting Christ in the beginning.

Also to the Fact Jesus gained more non Jewish followers than than Jews.

Uh? I don't know what this is supposed to prove [?]. The fact that Jesus gained followers who were not Jews has nothing to do with whether or not the Jews who believed were wrong in believing.

I fail to see your point about this.

In Orthadox Judaism their concept of the role of the Messiah is much different of that to Christians.

Modern rationalization. Interpretations which arose out of a need for justified rejection.

They rejected the Christ, before his suffering, and death, and resurrection.

Once again, I remind you, Christianity was founded and in large part centered in JEWISH communities. The Apostles, elders, and Pharisees were overseers, and they were centered in JERUSALEM.

These were Jews who HELD a different interpretation to that of MODERN JEWS.

How can you try to uphold later interpretations, which are suspect, over ancient interpretations which seem to have more solid ground than the modern?

There is no concept in Jewdaism that they were waiting for a Messiah to come to die for their sins and to be a living human sacrifice for all mankind.

How can you be sure? Again, you are basing your argument purely on suspect interpretations.

And, once again, the rejection is the fact that the Jews DID BELIEVE THIS, and the proof is that they were the original members of the Jewish sect now know as Christians.

This is pharasee dogma incorporated with some new Christian interpretation of the old testament to refer to the forshadow of the coming of Jesus.

Uh? The irony.

Isn't it the other way around; that the rejection of these interpretations came as a result of their pre-disposition to reject Christ?

As we know, they rejected Christ even before any of this had occured. How can you say that they reject him because of all that occured?

I would advise you sincerily to go study Pharasee doctrine. Paul was a Pharasee that accepted Jesus but still carried on his Pharasee teaching in is doctrine of Christ.

I am not sure I understand what you are asking me to do.

Are you rejecting the Pharisaic teachings?

Everthing he taught is a step by step mimic of the Pharasee doctrine that he did no abolish in is his doctrine

You seem to hold to a different view of Paul's teachings, than those of some Shia Muslims.

Would it be too much to ask you which of the sects do you belong to? Just out of curiosity, so I can have a little better feel of what your doctrines are.

Karaite, We still have to come to some agreements as to the rules to be laid. so far both of us agree to 65% of the rules the other part there is still question

Yes, that is why I asked you to continue posting in the thread we used as our agreement for the discussion of the rules.

It is located in the "Deuteronomy" forum, which is where we will have the debate, once we have agreed on the rules.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Blessings!

[H2O]

Quote:
Actually on the contrary your missing the point. I laid down the foundation of why the Jews rejected him even till today.


You are using circular reasoning. The Jews rejected him BEFORE his hanging, so how can you use that argument?

It is called a new rationalization; the Jews added and changed many of their views, in order to reject Jesus.

And that was the whole idea. When the Sanhedrin made their conviction (on whom ever it was) it was final to see if he was sent from G-D or not, whereas if he was sent by G-D He would save him from such conviction under the law.

Mark 15
30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.
31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.
32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Luke 23
34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar
37 And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.
38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

There was no new rationalization, they already applied their method of rational against him. If he was truely the messiah (according to the Jews) he would not have been crucified

But why should they not count? If your argument is about the Jewish perspective, then why did they have divided opinions, then? How can you uphold one above the other, simply because one rejects your own argument?

Again, you might not be aware of this, but his follwers were divided about him (as you should know) in which some of his followers also rejected his Crucifixion.

Philippians 3
17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them[?] which walk so as ye have us for an ensample .
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they[?] are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

"The enemies of the cross of Christ " Obviously not refering to the Jews who rejected Jesus and called him an imposted and mocked at him whom correctly are "The enemies of Christ {Jesus}" as they rejoiced in crucifying him whom they thought was Jesus. This is refering to those who rejected the crucifixion in which "The Cross" is the subject that represented the crucifix whom certain followers where against to be labeled as the enemies of "The Cross" rather than " The enemies of Christ. And of course Paul goes on assualting them about their arrogance in verse 19.

So no I did not "uphold one above the other, simply because one rejects my own argument", you are making such statement cause you lack in the knowledge of the Christian sects that existed during Jesus's time and their beliefs about him that were contrary to modern Christian beliefs.

But this does not support your argument, because they rejected Jesus before HIS HANGING! So, this actually rejects your argument that they reject him because of the hanging. It can easily be argued that later changes to their interpretations are due to the fact of their REJECTION of Christ, and not that their rejection of Christ is due to their interpretation

Maybe you misunderstood me and maybe you need to paymore attention to what I post.

In Orthadox Judaism their concept of the role of the Messiah is much different of that to Christians. There is no concept in Jewdaism that they were waiting for a Messiah to come to die for their sins and to be a living human sacrifice for all mankind...

The historical acts of Jesus contradicted the Jewish perspective, concept and purpose of the Messiah. This established their doubts about him. The alleged crucifixion gave confirmation to their doubts that he was an imposter and to some who believed he was not crucified gave confirmation that he was indeed the Messiah, and then later another group known as the Pauline sect, mostly comprised of gentiles, gave way to his Pharasiac (Mystic) concept of the crucifixion that Justified for his crucifixion and his possition as Messiah.

How can you try to uphold later interpretations, which are suspect, over ancient interpretations which seem to have more solid ground than the modern?

I believe you are speaking on the bases of ignorance of Jewish writings from that era. Have you ever read the Talmud ? I dont think you have to make such an eranious statement like you did. We will make thing a little bit simpler for you that having to spend years trying to consume all the writing of the Talmud. Here is a Christians finding in the Talmud about Jesus. These writings were written in Jesus' time and some just after.
http://watch.pair.com/HRChrist.html

You seem to hold to a different view of Paul's teachings, than those of some Shia Muslims.

Would it be too much to ask you which of the sects do you belong to? Just out of curiosity, so I can have a little better feel of what your doctrines are.

Sect ? I do not belong to a sec. Thats Shiaism, use that concept with Shias not those who are not Shias. Would you like me to draw christian beliefs based on Catholics, or Mormons ? Geesh that tells me how much you all know about islam. Some of the views that you learnt are all mixed up with different islamic schools of thought called madzhabs, and you havent learnt to disctinguish each madzhab in its perspective. i am a Haneef Muslim just as Abraham was, this is what the Quran teaches for us to be. WHat muslims want to call them sleves, Sunni, Salafi, Sufi, Shia,etc that is between them and our Rabb.

[Karaite]

And that was the whole idea. When the Sanhedrin made their conviction (on whom ever it was) it was final to see if he was sent from G-D or not, whereas if he was sent by G-D He would save him from such conviction under the law.

So, you are arguing that it was NOT on Jesus that they made their conviction? And you are saying that, the person on whom the conviction was imposed, had he been a real prophet, then God would not have allowed such conviction to befall him?

Interesting. I am certain there are numerous times where the Qu'ran says that the prophets were killed by the people, and accused as 'impostors'; for example, "Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!" (2:87)

I don't know, call me ignorant, but your logic in this eludes me.

There was no new rationalization, they already applied their method of rational against him. If he was truely the messiah (according to the Jews) he would not have been crucified.

First, I would like you to explain what the implications of the quote are, because just quoting without explaining doesn't really serve any purpose, being that I AM ALREADY familiar with the passage.

And you are still to show why he would not possibly be crucified, had he been the Messiah. That argument is based on a presumption.

Again, you might not be aware of this, but his follwers were divided about him (as you should know) in which some of his followers also rejected his Crucifixion.

I am quite aware of the sects which created their own traditions, and deserted the traditions of the Apostles. Those who went out from among us, but were never one of us. Seeking to have teachers who would tickle their ears.

I am quite aware, my friend -- I know about the origins of the Qu'ran.

The historical acts of Jesus contradicted the Jewish perspective, concept and purpose of the Messiah.

How many times must I repeat? Where and by what group was Christianity founded? Was it not the Jews? Then why do you keep making blanket statements like these, that the JEWS as a whole held one perspective, which is contrary to what Jesus' life attested to?

This established their doubts about him.

And this established their belief in him!

The alleged crucifixion gave confirmation to their doubts that he was an imposter and to some who believed he was not crucified gave confirmation that he was indeed the Messiah, and then later another group known as the Pauline sect, mostly comprised of gentiles, gave way to his Pharasiac (Mystic) concept of the crucifixion that Justified for his crucifixion and his possition as Messiah.

Yet, the Qu'ran says that the Jews KNEW he was the Messiah, and that they killed him because of this. As it says, "in boast!" This is quite contrary to your argument here.

His death might have brought some sense of relief, for a moment; however, the resurrection brought confirmation to his claim! For they knew that he had said that he would die, and then be raised, so they feared that this would happen, and asked that his tomb be guarded. To their own shame, they could not stop what was already set in stone.

"So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"! (19:33)

I believe you are speaking on the bases of ignorance of Jewish writings from that era.

Again, I am aware!

Have you ever read the Talmud ? I dont think you have to make such an eranious statement like you did.

So now you are going to tell me what I have, and what I have not read? Please, I advise you, don't make a habit of arguing like this, it only pushes people away from you.

We will make thing a little bit simpler for you that having to spend years trying to consume all the writing of the Talmud. Here is a Christians finding in the Talmud about Jesus. These writings were written in Jesus' time and some just after. http://watch.pair.com/HRChrist.html

Historical Scholars have much to say about Jesus' existence in the Talmud. Perhaps you should try learning some more about the history of the Talmud.

By the way, when I say "scholars", I am not referring to Christians, I am referring to SECULAR scholars, who debate over whether or not the references made in the Talmud are actually about the same Jesus, and things of that sort.

Also, could you please give me references for verifying the time frame in which those writings were recorded? As history has it, the Rabbinical writings were destroyed during the destruction of the Temple.

And please, do not make any assumptions about what I have NOT said.

Sect ? I do not belong to a sec.

Okay, so you are an independent believer? You have no group in particular with which you associate, and learn with?

Thats Shiaism, use that concept with Shias not those who are not Shias.

What concept? What are you talkinga bout? I asked you a question, I did not assert anything to you.

Would you like me to draw christian beliefs based on Catholics, or Mormons ? Geesh that tells me how much you all know about islam.

Man, put down your guard! Where is all of this coming from? I ask you what sect you belong to, and you respond with this? I even said, 'would it be too much to ask'.

Look, if others have treated you with hostilily, that still does not justify your irrational hostility with me. I have a clean slate, and I would like to keep it like that.

Stop and think before you post responses like this.

Some of the views that you learnt are all mixed up with different islamic schools of thought called madzhabs, and you havent learnt to disctinguish each madzhab in its perspective.

How do you know what I have learned? You already know what I have learned, from just asking you what sect you belong to? Wow! You are a mind reader.

i am a Haneef Muslim just as Abraham was, this is what the Quran teaches for us to be. WHat muslims want to call them sleves, Sunni, Salafi, Sufi, Shia,etc that is between them and our Rabb.

Thank you, that is all I asked about.

[H2O]

So, you are arguing that it was NOT on Jesus that they made their conviction? And you are saying that, the person on whom the conviction was imposed, had he been a real prophet, then God would not have allowed such conviction to befall him?

As to crucifixion, yes

Interesting. I am certain there are numerous times where the Qu'ran says that the prophets were killed by the people, and accused as 'impostors'; for example, "Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!" (2:87)

The subject was about death by crucifixion not death in general.

I don't know, call me ignorant, but your logic in this eludes me

Then your going to be eluded alot more

Quote:
There was no new rationalization, they already applied their method of rational against him. If he was truely the messiah (according to the Jews) he would not have been crucified.


First, I would like you to explain what the implications of the quote are, because just quoting without explaining doesn't really serve any purpose, being that I AM ALREADY familiar with the passage.

I knew you were, I was thinking you may have forgotten about it. The whole point to the verses is that they were applying rational from their knowledge of the Messiah from their Tanakh, obviously from those mockeries they knew the Messiah could not have been put to death in such a humiliating way.

And you are still to show why he would not possibly be crucified, had he been the Messiah. That argument is based on a presumption.

the Arguement is based on what the Torah says. This was the final confirmation if he was a messiah and prophet of G-D o not.

Quote:
Again, you might not be aware of this, but his follwers were divided about him (as you should know) in which some of his followers also rejected his Crucifixion.


I am quite aware of the sects which created their own traditions, and deserted the traditions of the Apostles. Those who went out from among us, but were never one of us. Seeking to have teachers who would tickle their ears.

I am quite aware, my friend -- I know about the origins of the Qu'ran.

Thank you. Then my arguement was not just solely based on his enemies but but also those who believes he was the Messiah rejected him being crucified cause such a death wish could not have befalling the Messiah.

How many times must I repeat? Where and by what group was Christianity founded? Was it not the Jews? Then why do you keep making blanket statements like these, that the JEWS as a whole held one perspective, which is contrary to what Jesus' life attested to?

They were originally Jews correct. But even the Jews who believed in him as the Messiah became divided among them selves about him.

Yet, the Qu'ran says that the Jews KNEW he was the Messiah, and that they killed him because of this. As it says, "in boast!" This is quite contrary to your argument here.

Umm, ehm please read your gospel :

Quote:
Mark 15
30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.
31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.
32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Now if I quoted that out of context it would sond like the Jews we acknowledging him as the Messiah but in the context it clearifies it was a mockery right ? Now what does the Quran say about this particular statement as well in its context that you missed:

and in their (the Jews) disbelief they spoke against Maryam grave false charges and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so(Quran 4:156-159)

His death might have brought some sense of relief, for a moment; however, the resurrection brought confirmation to his claim! For they knew that he had said that he would die, and then be raised, so they feared that this would happen, and asked that his tomb be guarded. To their own shame, they could not stop what was already set in stone.

"So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"! (19:33)

Of course your above Quranic quote is nothing but mOnKeY mOnKeY do. A person as your self with such disposition of thaught and excercize of logic which you have done extremely well in, I am ashamed that you never went back to double confirm these quotes. This comes from ones lack of reading. In the same Surah couple verses before the same identicle words are used for Yahya with the difference in the pronouns

[19:15] So Peace on him the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that he will be raised up to life (again)!

http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispT ... =eng&t=eng

[19:33] "So Peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!"

http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispT ... =eng&t=eng

To bring that verse up is irrelevant. It has the same foundamental meaning with Yahya

So now you are going to tell me what I have, and what I have not read? Please, I advise you, don't make a habit of arguing like this, it only pushes people away from you.

You thought expressions convey that you have not read the Talmud before, so that why i said what I said, and then to confirm I trust your word as being true on this if you ever read the Talmud before. It was illogical to me for you to make such a statement being aware or having knowledge of what the Talmud says about him and his mother.

Historical Scholars have much to say about Jesus' existence in the Talmud. Perhaps you should try learning some more about the history of the Talmud.

By the way, when I say "scholars", I am not referring to Christians, I am referring to SECULAR scholars, who debate over whether or not the references made in the Talmud are actually about the same Jesus, and things of that sort.

Also, could you please give me references for verifying the time frame in which those writings were recorded? As history has it, the Rabbinical writings were destroyed during the destruction of the Temple.

And please, do not make any assumptions about what I have NOT said.

Yes I am aware and have read what they said. Do you wanna QUIZ me on this? I would be more than glad to pass the exame . Anyhow yes. But here is the thing. When the Jews wrote about him and his mother they called them by humuliating names. They striped him and his mother from their honorable titles. Yes I would agree some writers used his real name "Yashu" which is an honorable name, and some writers refused to call him by such name but substituted it with derogatory titles for him and his mother which of course would be allien to SECULAR scholars. Now I would agree some places are VAGUE as to if the writers were refering to Yashu or not.

Okay, so you are an independent believer? You have no group in particular with which you associate, and learn with?

I follow the orthadoxy of the Quran which preaches the unity of the muslim ummah. This titling among some muslims to distinguish themselves from another group of muslims is called sectarianism which is forbidin in Islam. Most of those born into muslim families adopt this formality. It is the same characterists found in Judaism and Christianity in which they mimic.

I study all the various islamic schools of thought. I do not favor one above the other, other than the one that is closest to the truth. Of course in order to do this you have to go back and study what the scholars studied to determin if their hikmah wa ilm is correct or not in its application of the religion. They were not infallible but are subject to error like my self. But of coourse you have some groups who believe they were infallable and were sinless.

Quote:
Would you like me to draw christian beliefs based on Catholics, or Mormons ? Geesh that tells me how much you all know about islam.


Man, put down your guard! Where is all of this coming from? I ask you what sect you belong to, and you respond with this? I even said, 'would it be too much to ask'.

Ok then I would like to apologize first of all, when you brought Shia into this that became an insault to me just if you would have brought the Ahmadiyyah beliefs in to this as well. It just seemed to me you were introducing another HERETICAL sect belief as a general belief in islam about Paul.

How do you know what I have learned? You already know what I have learned, from just asking you what sect you belong to? Wow! You are a mind reader.

Again, then I apologize if I was wrong. What is common among Christian in criticism against islam, which i should not have been so quick to put you in that group, they study islam from a critic and bias point of view which is propagated using various schools of thought that do not agree with each other and which conforms more to their method of criticism

However I have to be blunt to this extreme. If you have never read the Quran and read the Authentic Hadith "Sahih Al-Bukhari and Muslim" for your self then you are remote from understanding islam in its true perspective in a non bias and non dictatorial view.

[Karaite]

The subject was about death by crucifixion not death in general.

But can you tell me where in the Qu'ran does it say that there was a difference between their attempt to "slay" Jesus, from their attempts and successes in slaying the prophets?

Then your going to be eluded alot more.

Thank you for the heads up.

I knew you were, I was thinking you may have forgotten about it. The whole point to the verses is that they were applying rational from their knowledge of the Messiah from their Tanakh, obviously from those mockeries they knew the Messiah could not have been put to death in such a humiliating way.

And where exactly in the passage does it say that this is their rationale? The passage merely implies their disbelief, where they say, "he saved others..." Did Jesus ever save anyone from the crucifixion? NO! So how could they be alluding to the crucifixion, when they told him to save himself?

Jesus himself said this, "No doubt you will quote this proverb to Me, Physician, heal yourself!" (Luke 4:23)

There are no basis for arguing that they wanted him to come down from the cross, because that is not the way the Messiah will die. Their argument was, 'if God is on your side, then you will not die.' Furthermore, the fact that the Messiah was believed to be the one to sit on the throne of David, then a dead Messiah certainly won't fulfill that, can he? So, if he is the Messiah, the Son of God, His Chosen One, how can he then die?

That was their mistake, of course, that they did not understand that he had to die!

the Arguement is based on what the Torah says. This was the final confirmation if he was a messiah and prophet of G-D o not.

Well, the prophets did die, many of them at the hands of the Jews. That does not deny that they were prophets, does it?

Yes, you say the crucifixion, but that is not existent in any of the texts, not one says that they argued that the Messiah could not die on the cross; their argument was that the Messiah had to sit on the throne of David, therefore, it was not reasonable to expect him to die.

Thank you. Then my arguement was not just solely based on his enemies but but also those who believes he was the Messiah rejected him being crucified cause such a death wish could not have befalling the Messiah.

Uh? LOL!

They were originally Jews correct. But even the Jews who believed in him as the Messiah became divided among them selves about him.

I am not sure what is your point. I said there were Jews who believed, and by this I am not referring to anyone who believes that he was not crucified, I am talking solely of those who believed he was crucified.

Now if I quoted that out of context it would sond like the Jews we acknowledging him as the Messiah but in the context it clearifies it was a mockery right ?

In the first line, you can see that it says that they don't believe, there is no way to mistake that. The previous verses say they don't believe, and the following verses say they don't believe.

Where is the confusion in that? None.

But here is the Surah I quoted:

[Shakir 4:157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

[Yusufali 4:157] That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

[Pickthal 4:157] And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 4:157]

Now, none of these three implies at all that the Jews did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah -- not one! The verse on Mary is in itself a separate thought, even with your attempt to make them one single line of thought, they are quite separate thoughts.

Here is what the verse on Mary reads like:

[Shakir 4:155-156] Therefore, for their breaking their covenant and their disbelief in the communications of Allah and their killing the prophets wrongfully and their saying: Our hearts are covered; nay! Allah set a seal upon them owing to their unbelief, so they shall not believe except a few. And for their unbelief and for their having uttered against Marium a grievous calumny.

[Yusufali 4:155-156] (They have incurred divine displeasure): In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word; We need no more)";- Nay, Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;- That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;

[Pickthal 4:155-156] Then because of their breaking of their covenant, and their disbelieving in the revelations of Allah, and their slaying of the prophets wrongfully, and their saying: Our hearts are hardened - Nay, but Allah set a seal upon them for their disbelief, so that they believe not save a few -And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny;

As you can see, the passage does not say anything about the Jews mocking, but not meaning it, that Jesus is the Messiah. It merely speaks about their unbelief in general.

In any case, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, what say you? At least for now.

Of course your above Quranic quote is nothing but mOnKeY mOnKeY do.

Oh my, I am reduced to a monkey....

A person as your self with such disposition of thaught and excercize of logic which you have done extremely well in, I am ashamed that you never went back to double confirm these quotes.

Double confirm? I see, you are saying that I picked them off from someone, and took it as gospel truth?

Well, sorry to disappoint you, but I do know where those passages come from, and I do know what the Muslim tactic is.

This comes from ones lack of reading. In the same Surah couple verses before the same identicle words are used for Yahya with the difference in the pronouns

Just to save me the time to have to defend myself, go to this thread, and read what I wrote on this:

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=4748

To bring that verse up is irrelevant. It has the same foundamental meaning with Yahya

The link I gave above should help to explain what I used that verse for. If you have any questions, let me know.

Side note... Did not John die?

You thought expressions convey that you have not read the Talmud before, so that why i said what I said, and then to confirm I trust your word as being true on this if you ever read the Talmud before.

I doubt my expressions could give off such impression. I said that the rationalization was post-Christ, not pre-Christ.

I don't see how such proposition could give off the impression that talmudic knowledge is absent.

It was illogical to me for you to make such a statement being aware or having knowledge of what the Talmud says about him and his mother.

Well, knowing what the Talmud says of him does not change the fact that their rationalization was as a result of their desire to justify their rejection of Christ -- and not the other way around.

I know that there are a number of references made about different failed messiahs, as well. I just don't think that knowing this, justifies the idea that the Jews rejected Jesus because of the hanging. That is a post rejection, thus I see it as suspect.

What is common among Christian in criticism against islam, which i should not have been so quick to put you in that group, they study islam from a critic and bias point of view which is propagated using various schools of thought that do not agree with each other and which conforms more to their method of criticism

Do you not see the irony in this? You realize that this is precisely the form of criticism you have been using?

At least in Islam, there is high regard for Hadiths, but in Christianity, there is no high regard for apocryphal and other extra-canonical writings. These are not held to as authoritative in anything, they are but literary works.

As it turns out, the major differences in Islam is based on Hadiths.

However I have to be blunt to this extreme. If you have never read the Quran and read the Authentic Hadith "Sahih Al-Bukhari and Muslim" for your self then you are remote from understanding islam in its true perspective in a non bias and non dictatorial view.

I have read the Qu'ran, and I have read other literary works of the Muslims.

Blessings!

[H2O]

Quote:
The subject was about death by crucifixion not death in general.


But can you tell me where in the Qu'ran does it say that there was a difference between their attempt to "slay" Jesus, from their attempts and successes in slaying the prophets?

Realize what you are doing. You are approaching the Quran with a Christian perspective.

"Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!" (2:87)

and in their (the Jews) disbelief they spoke against Maryam grave false charges, and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so. And verily those who differed there in (that he was not crucified nor killed) were indeed in doubt about it. They had no knowledge about it except that they followed conjecture, and for surety they killed him not,(Quran 4:156-159)

In the Quran Jesus was only of those who were called imposters and not of those who were slain cause he was not killed by them.

There are no basis for arguing that they wanted him to come down from the cross, because that is not the way the Messiah will die. Their argument was, 'if God is on your side, then you will not die.' Furthermore, the fact that the Messiah was believed to be the one to sit on the throne of David, then a dead Messiah certainly won't fulfill that, can he? So, if he is the Messiah, the Son of God, His Chosen One, how can he then die?

How is he the son of David ie a descendant of David when his mother was a Levite and Joseph was not a his biological father ?

That was their mistake, of course, that they did not understand that he had to die!

That it not a reality base; The Jewish expectation of the Messiah is contrary to your beliefs. So its a matter of belief not reality.

Quote:
the Arguement is based on what the Torah says. This was the final confirmation if he was a messiah and prophet of G-D o not.


Well, the prophets did die, many of them at the hands of the Jews. That does not deny that they were prophets, does it?

Again it depends on how they were killed. As far as we know and on document bases Jesus was the only prophet whom the Jews attempted to kill by crucifixion. You are missing the point, and going off of it. All the prophets died, indeed, some of them were killed by their enemies some died natural deaths, this has nothing to do with the Law of Deut. It is clear the Jews attempted to convict Jesus under the Law of crucifixion in Torah. There is no eveidence that they tried such a thing with former prophets, and if such a thing did happened with death by crucifixion then there is a flaw in the Law which deprives it of being divinely inspired.

Yes, you say the crucifixion, but that is not existent in any of the texts, not one says that they argued that the Messiah could not die on the cross; their argument was that the Messiah had to sit on the throne of David, therefore, it was not reasonable to expect him to die.

If you dont know what inference expressions are as the Gospels have conveied form the enemies of Jesus then our dialogue is fruitless then ie I see what you cannot see or you see what I cannot see.

Quote:
Now if I quoted that out of context it would sond like the Jews we acknowledging him as the Messiah but in the context it clearifies it was a mockery right ?


In the first line, you can see that it says that they don't believe, there is no way to mistake that. The previous verses say they don't believe, and the following verses say they don't believe.

Go back and read the post you missing the point. I am not disagreeing with you, I was showing your flaw in approach to the Quran.

Now, none of these three implies at all that the Jews did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah -- not one! The verse on Mary is in itself a separate thought, even with your attempt to make them one single line of thought, they are quite separate thoughts.

And you read them out of context, dont you see the conjuction "and" at the begining of that verse which is a continuation of the following verse ?

..and in their (the Jews) disbelief they spoke against Maryam grave false charges and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so(Quran 4:156-159)

You can quote all you want there is a context of that clause. It continues in conjuction of their disbelief of there "saying" which expresses mere slander and mockery. No muslim interprets this as what you are trying to make it to be. You have taken it our of context this was my point.

As you can see, the passage does not say anything about the Jews mocking, but not meaning it, that Jesus is the Messiah. It merely speaks about their unbelief in general

Their saying of calling Jesus "The Messiah the messenger of Allah" was disbelief as the context reflects it. This is mockery.

Quote:
To bring that verse up is irrelevant. It has the same foundamental meaning with Yahya


The link I gave above should help to explain what I used that verse for. If you have any questions, let me know.

Side note... Did not John die?

I see you havent been reading some of my other posts on other Forums and you assuming what my beliefs are about Jesus based on main stream muslim TRADITIONAL beliefs. Let me just give you Quranic everses Again.

[19:15] So Peace on him(Yahya) the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that he will be raised up to life (again)!

http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispT ... =eng&t=eng

[19:33] "So Peace is on me(Jesus) the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!"

http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispT ... =eng&t=eng

And they (the enemies of Jesus) plotted (to kill him) and Allah to plotted, and Allah is the best of plotters. When Allah said : "O Jesus ! Verily I am causing you to decease (mutawafee) while raising you to my self and purifying you from those who are disbelievers".....(Quran 3:54-55)

and in their (the Jews) disbelief they spoke against Maryam grave false charges, and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so. And verily those who differed there in (that he was not crucified nor killed) were indeed in doubt about it. They had no knowledge about it except that they followed conjecture, and for surety they killed him not, [color=red]rather Allah raised him up to himself (ref. 3:54-55) and Allah is almighty all wise (Quran 4:156-157)

[On the Day of Judgement Jesus will say] I did not say to them (the Jews and my followers) but what you commanded me to say that "Worship Allah (In Aramaic Aalah) my Lord and your Lord" and I was a witness over them (the Jews) when I dwelt among them whereas you caused me to decease (ref. 3:54-55) you were the watcher over them and you are a witness over everything (5:116-118)[/color]

Your Christian wesite's http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=4748 Criticism using verse 19:33 to confirm Jesus's death and then trying to associate it with his crucifixion is rebounded on one Islamic School of thought and not all of them (in which I believe they were ignorant off). We, another School of thought, do not believe Jesus is still alive as some muslims believe and nor do we believe he will return again. Indications of such in hadith are merely symbolic references in the light of ALL the hadiths that allude to a second coming. The Quran confirms no second coming, nor does the Quran confirm he is still physically alive. The Quran states that he died during his ascension to Allah, which has been grossly over looked edited and taken out of its context by Chritians to fit their criticism, and by some Muslims to cooborrate with Hadith.

i only believed that Isa survived from the attempt of killing him, either natural way or humiliating and painful such as crucify.

jews believed that they killed him, but they was wronged. they are too soon to assume he was death.

isa survived and live to old age. not ascended to heaven as most muslim scholars believed. there was no second coming!

that what i believed.

Yes, I believe that there will be no second coming as well. However, the views about the ascension is divided among muslims yes in deed.

Some look at "rafi'a" ~ to be raised as meaning " he was raised to a place of honor just as another prophet in the Quran was also raised etc." but his body remains somewhere on earth like his mother's.

Then some others believe he was actually physically raised and raised to a place of honor with all the righteous prophets who have passed away in the past.

Then third party believes just like the Christians believe that he is somewhere in heaven alive and will return

I would settle for he was physically raised and raised to honor cause if he was left here on earth more than likely his follower would have built a Dome over his grave, I mean look at what they are doing with items that they claim to be associated with him. Jus imagine if Christians knew where hsi burial was every christian would have made this a pilgrimage over flooding Al-Quds.

See this is what I mean, you learn your criticism from Chrisitian web sites that mix up the various schools of thought , then you try to apply that knowledge with christian perspective and prestige in debate with those who are not associated with that form of thaught or belief.

Jesus died in his time (during his ascention), just as Yahya died during his time as well. Their raising up ie revived to life will be on the day of resurrection.

I have read the Qu'ran, and I have read other literary works of the Muslims.

I believe you when you said this, but when you were reading the Quran what was your intentions, was your heart pure in seeking for truth or blackened seeking for curruption ?

none shall touch it (the Quran) except those who are pure (Quran 56:79)

The Quran are words, words cannot be physically touched, but can only be touched with the heart in order to understand them to graps them.

You read Quran but missed soo much and only remembered what you can benifit from inorder to use whatever it may be as a tool against your opposers, not just that your crisiticism is merely mimicing another in dictatorial aspect and non of it so far that I have seen comes from a non dictatorial aspect.

[whosurdaddy]

Your Christian wesite's http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=4748 Criticism using verse 19:33 to confirm Jesus's death and then trying to associate it with his crucifixion is rebounded on one Islamic School of thought and not all of them (in which I believe they were ignorant off). We, another School of thought, do not believe Jesus is still alive as some muslims believe and nor do we believe he will return again. Indications of such in hadith are merely symbolic references in the light of ALL the hadiths that allude to a second coming. The Quran confirms no second coming, nor does the Quran confirm he is still physically alive. The Quran states that he died during his ascension to Allah, which has been grossly over looked edited and taken out of its context by Chritians to fit their criticism, and by some Muslims to cooborrate with Hadith
==================================
He died during his ascension to heaven? What a nonsensical statement. How convienent to state that Jesus died ascending to heaven. I'm certain the devil put this thought in your mind.

[newseed]

Your Christian wesite's http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=4748 Criticism using verse 19:33 to confirm Jesus's death and then trying to associate it with his crucifixion is rebounded on one Islamic School of thought and not all of them (in which I believe they were ignorant off). We, another School of thought, do not believe Jesus is still alive as some muslims believe and nor do we believe he will return again. Indications of such in hadith are merely symbolic references in the light of ALL the hadiths that allude to a second coming. The Quran confirms no second coming, nor does the Quran confirm he is still physically alive. The Quran states that he died during his ascension to Allah, which has been grossly over looked edited and taken out of its context by Chritians to fit their criticism, and by some Muslims to cooborrate with Hadith
==================================
He died during his ascension to heaven? What a nonsensical statement. How convienent to state that Jesus died ascending to heaven. I'm certain the devil put this thought in your mind.

I wonder if that is scripturally written in the Quran?

[H2O]

He died during his ascension to heaven? What a nonsensical statement. How convienent to state that Jesus died ascending to heaven. I'm certain the devil put this thought in your mind

What about Elijah then :

2 Kings 2
10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

Didnt Elijah die during his ascention?

[H2O]

I wonder if that is scripturally written in the Quran?

Hmm I think some of you got bad reading comprehension but lets try this again. :

[19:15] So Peace on him(Yahya) the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that he will be raised up to life (again)!

http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispT ... =eng&t=eng

[19:33] "So Peace is on me(Jesus) the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!"

http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispT ... =eng&t=eng

And they (the enemies of Jesus) plotted (to kill him) and Allah to plotted, and Allah is the best of plotters. When Allah said : "O Jesus ! Verily I am causing you to decease (mutawafee) while raising you to my self and purifying you from those who are disbelievers".....(Quran 3:54-55)

and in their (the Jews) disbelief they spoke against Maryam grave false charges, and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so. And verily those who differed there in (that he was not crucified nor killed) were indeed in doubt about it. They had no knowledge about it except that they followed conjecture, and for surety they killed him not, [color=red]rather Allah raised him up to himself (ref. 3:54-55) and Allah is almighty all wise (Quran 4:156-157)

[On the Day of Judgement Jesus will say] I did not say to them (the Jews and my followers) but what you commanded me to say that "Worship Allah (In Aramaic Aalah) my Lord and your Lord" and I was a witness over them (the Jews) when I dwelt among them whereas you caused me to decease (ref. 3:54-55) you were the watcher over them and you are a witness over everything (5:116-118)[/color]

What part of the above dont you get ?

[Omega]

Maybe he doesn't get all of it because its written by a bogus prophet writer who has the ability to dupe nonsensical theolgians who grew up believing in the fairy tale of cinderella and Santa Claus!

[whosurdaddy]

He died during his ascension to heaven? What a nonsensical statement. How convienent to state that Jesus died ascending to heaven. I'm certain the devil put this thought in your mind

What about Elijah then :

2 Kings 2
10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

Didnt Elijah die during his ascention?

=================================
Remember, Jesus was a spirit being. He could walk thru walls as he did when appearing to the disciples. He also disappeared when eating bread with 2 disciples he met on the road after he rose from the dead. His body was unique; flesh and bone and spirit. Its wrong to state that he died when ascending. Where is the evidence?
Elijah is a different topic. He must have changed somehow in order to enter the spirit world. The Bible does say..."flesh and blood shall not inherit heaven" so Elijah must have changed, but the Bible don't explain it.

[Apple Pie]

Greetings H2O,

Thanks for your comments.

However, you sound like a broken record.

Let’s look…

[19:15] So Peace on him(Yahya) the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that he will be raised up to life (again)!

http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispT ... =eng&t=eng

[19:33] "So Peace is on me(Jesus) the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!"

http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispT ... =eng&t=eng

Using your rational, we should expect that John died when he was raised up as well…since you are using this same contextual reasoning to promote Jesus from dying on the cross…

Is this correct?



Thanks…

[H2O]

Remember, Jesus was a spirit being. He could walk thru walls as he did when appearing to the disciples. He also disappeared when eating bread with 2 disciples he met on the road after he rose from the dead. His body was unique; flesh and bone and spirit. Its wrong to state that he died when ascending. Where is the evidence?
Elijah is a different topic. He must have changed somehow in order to enter the spirit world. The Bible does say..."flesh and blood shall not inherit heaven" so Elijah must have changed, but the Bible don't explain it

.

Ehm...let see

Luke 24:

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

Also if before his attempted crucifixion he also ate food and drank where as Spirits are in no need of fleshly sustenance.

So why couldnt the same thing happened to Jesus Just like that of Elijah's ascension ?

[H2O]

Using your rational, we should expect that John died when he was raised up as well…since you are using this same contextual reasoning to promote Jesus from dying on the cross…

Is this correct?

So tell me when was John resurrected ? Also your looking at this in a christian perspective in which you form of rational is dependent on.

In islam Jesus died in his era as John died in his era and both will be raised to life on the day of resurrection.

[Karaite]

Realize what you are doing. You are approaching the Quran with a Christian perspective.

Mind to elaborate? I asked you to show the difference, because I believe in order for an argument of such nature to be made, when indicators seem to be contrary to it, then some type of evidence must be provided that would support it.

I ask you again, could you show from the Qu'ra, not the Bible, where there is any indication that the slaying of the prophets is any different from their desire to slay Jesus?

That they would think that crucifixion, and solely that, is evidence that this prophet is not Messiah?

I don't see how this shows any bias against the Qu'ran.

In the Quran Jesus was only of those who were called imposters and not of those who were slain cause he was not killed by them.

That is a given. I don't think there is any doubt here about what the Muslims see the case of Jesus to be; otherwise, we wouldn't be discussing the factuality of the crucifixion, would we?

There are no basis for arguing that they wanted him to come down from the cross, because that is not the way the Messiah will die. Their argument was, 'if God is on your side, then you will not die.' Furthermore, the fact that the Messiah was believed to be the one to sit on the throne of David, then a dead Messiah certainly won't fulfill that, can he? So, if he is the Messiah, the Son of God, His Chosen One, how can he then die?

How is he the son of David ie a descendant of David when his mother was a Levite and Joseph was not a his biological father ?

You are arguing an irrelevant issue. No one is arguing about Jesus' parents, the point I made was that the Messiah could not die, because he had to sit on the throne of David; PER JEWISH SCRIPTURE AND BELIEF.

Your argument above is more of an argument that would be used by someone who DID NOT believe that Jesus was the Messiah, therefore, arguing that his genealogy does not meet with King David.

That was their mistake, of course, that they did not understand that he had to die!

So its a matter of belief not reality.

And with that said, your argument is devoid of reality.

Again it depends on how they were killed. As far as we know and on document bases Jesus was the only prophet whom the Jews attempted to kill by crucifixion.

Death is death.

You are missing the point, and going off of it.

Quite to the contrary; I have been weeding out the irrelevant aspects of your argument.

All the prophets died, indeed, some of them were killed by their enemies some died natural deaths, this has nothing to do with the Law of Deut.

First of all, we have not been talking about "the death of the prophets", don't try to mix it up. We are talking about the KILLING AT THE HANDS of the JEWS/Israelites.

So, when we speak of those executed by the Jews, we are most certainly going to have to include the law in Deuteronomy, which is not a law about crucifixion, but a law about KILLING A SINNER!

"If a man shall have committed a sin whose judgment is death, he shall be put to death..."

"But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you." (Deuteronomy 13:5)

False prophecy; speaking contrary to God's word; blasphemy; these are the sins of a false prophet whose judgment is death!

So, the killing of a prophet is the jugment of a FALSE PROPHET. The hanging on the tree is the judgment of a FALSE PROPHET. There is no difference if the prophet is stoned to death; if his head is rolled off onto a silver-plate; of he is slaughtered in the Temple; if he is killed with the sword; or any of other possible deaths that a man could suffer. The death is the penalty of their sin.

When it says that a person who hangs on a tree is accursed, that is relating to the fact that they are put to shame in plain view, for all to see. As it is also with stoning, where the entire camp would take pleasure in taking the life out of the condemned.

It is clear the Jews attempted to convict Jesus under the Law of crucifixion in Torah.

Really?

There is no eveidence that they tried such a thing with former prophets, and if such a thing did happened with death by crucifixion then there is a flaw in the Law which deprives it of being divinely inspired.

So, if you are wrong, then it is the Scripture that is wrong; but if you are right, then the Scripture is still wrong?

There were various methods of killing; the Jews originally TRIED TO STONE HIM! But their attempts failed in that area, it was not until they finally got it into court, that they were able to get the desires of their heart.

Jesus said, "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." (John 10:18 )

If you dont know what inference expressions are as the Gospels have conveied form the enemies of Jesus then our dialogue is fruitless then ie I see what you cannot see or you see what I cannot see.

There is something called "self-deception", and then there is another thing called "selective hearing".

And, of course, there is the correct approach which is "deductive reasoning" -- all evidence is taken into account, and a deduction is made based on the evidence, not on preconceptions or bias.

The evidence does not suggest at all that their request for him to save himself, is because of the tree, but because of the actuality of death. They never said anything about the crucifixion, not one of them said, "if you are the messiah, you can't be crucified," and perhaps even add, "but instead you must die by stoning." (just making it a bit more interesting... )

Guess which one is right?

Go back and read the post you missing the point. I am not disagreeing with you, I was showing your flaw in approach to the Quran.

I know exactly what you were saying, you were and still are accusing me of taking the text out of its context. I have done no such thing.

And you read them out of context, dont you see the conjuction "and" at the begining of that verse which is a continuation of the following verse ?

It is a continuation, but it is a separation of CHARGE! The prior charge was, 'they spoke against Mary great false charges', and 'AND' indicates an additional charge!

What was the charge? According to the text, the charge was that 'we crucified the Messiah', in boast, as in a display of power and defiance of Allah.

The context of the passage begins a few verse prior to it, with accusations about their breaking of covenant, and their nagging requests for Moses, and end with the proclamation that they must believe, and that the Messiah would be a witness against them.

I have not ignored the context!

You can quote all you want there is a context of that clause. It continues in conjuction of their disbelief of there "saying" which expresses mere slander and mockery.

In the context, it expresses arrogance, as the context also say that they did not accept new messages, because 'the word was in their heart'-- this is indicative of arrogance.

Yusufali's translation puts it nicely:

(They have incurred divine displeasure): In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word; We need no more)";

Again, I am not using out of context rationale, I am quite within the boundaries of the context!

No muslim interprets this as what you are trying to make it to be. You have taken it our of context this was my point.

See note above.

I see you havent been reading some of my other posts on other Forums and you assuming what my beliefs are about Jesus based on main stream muslim TRADITIONAL beliefs. Let me just give you Quranic everses Again.

Hold on, I am going by what you wrote here, and so far, you appeared to hold to the traditional position that Jesus was raised to God, without death.

As you quote later in your post, you agreed with zampeada about there being no 'second coming', but you disagree about him living on earth. Instead, you say that you believe that he was raised. That is the only evidence I have had. Perhaps I missed something you said to someone else in this thread, and that would be my mistake, but as far as posts in other threads, I have not been around that long, and I seldomly enter threads which have been ongoing for so long.

And they (the enemies of Jesus) plotted (to kill him) and Allah to plotted, and Allah is the best of plotters. When Allah said : "O Jesus ! Verily I am causing you to decease (mutawafee) while raising you to my self and purifying you from those who are disbelievers".....(Quran 3:54-55)

Interesting. The context of the passage would imply that Allah would set himself AGAINST the plotters, not in a race to see who kills the Messiah first.

It doesn't make sense!

Your Christian wesite's http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=4748 Criticism using verse 19:33 to confirm Jesus's death and then trying to associate it with his crucifixion is rebounded on one Islamic School of thought and not all of them (in which I believe they were ignorant off).

My christian websites criticism? That site is this same site, what are you saying? It was merely a little quick exchange, nothing much. I just wanted to show that I know how Muslims take that verse, and how it fits the Muslim argument. That is all.

We, another School of thought, do not believe Jesus is still alive as some muslims believe and nor do we believe he will return again. Indications of such in hadith are merely symbolic references in the light of ALL the hadiths that allude to a second coming.

So, what is your take on those hadiths; are they truthful in some aspects, or are they totally false?

The Quran confirms no second coming, nor does the Quran confirm he is still physically alive. The Quran states that he died during his ascension to Allah, which has been grossly over looked edited and taken out of its context by Chritians to fit their criticism, and by some Muslims to cooborrate with Hadith.

Hold on, how could Christians be blamed for EDITING the text, when the translation of the Qu'ran is left up to MUSLIMS! The translations, every single one of them that I have been able to grab a hold of, have all have been Islamic sources.

Such accusations are ludicrous.

See this is what I mean, you learn your criticism from Chrisitian web sites that mix up the various schools of thought , then you try to apply that knowledge with christian perspective and prestige in debate with those who are not associated with that form of thaught or belief.

Where do you get this information from? Do you have some way of tracking my site-browsing, that you know that I am visiting Christian websites that are the only sources of my understanding of Islam?

And what does your quote of zampeada and yourself have to do with my learning of Islamic teachings?

My understanding of Islam has come strictly from Islamic sources. There used to be a time when Arabia.com used to contain a search engine dedicated to things Islamic and Arabic, so that was a great source for Islamic study. But then they changed to Google, and they don't have the resources they used to have.

I don't see how you can bring yourself to make accusations like this about a person you had never spoken to, until last week.

Jesus died in his time (during his ascention), just as Yahya died during his time as well. Their raising up ie revived to life will be on the day of resurrection.

I know that is what you believe.

I have read the Qu'ran, and I have read other literary works of the Muslims.

I believe you when you said this, but when you were reading the Quran what was your intentions, was your heart pure in seeking for truth or blackened seeking for curruption ?

I was reading out of curiosity, and in search for what could be perceived as truth, by the human mind.

But of course, nothing I say can truly change your perception of me, can it? So, let's just leave this up to the way we carry ourselves in the open forum. I am certain you will find very little to accuse me of, and be still justified in it.

none shall touch it (the Quran) except those who are pure (Quran 56:79)

Ah, that is what a Somali friend told me, that I could not touch the Qu'ran, unless I was a Muslim. See, I used to work in a place where around 80% + of the people were Muslim, mainly Somali, but a few were from other areas of Africa. And that is why I started reading the Qu'ran, because I had a few chats with them, and I got interested. But one time, when I asked one to give me a Qu'ran, she told me that I could not touch it (the book), but I could only read a few passages that she would copy from it, because I had to believe first, and then read it. Needless to say, I was perplexed.

So, instead of asking them for a Qu'ran, I went to Barnes and Nobles, and got down to reading... Then I had another friend, a french lady from Ivory Coast, and she gave me a Qu'ran-- and then I had another friend who gave me one in Spanish -- and I have a number of sources online, from which I can read passages.

As Jesus said, "seek and ye shall find." But, of course, I found the truth not in the Qu'ran, but in the Bible -- incidentally, the Quranic mentions of Jesus and the Book, and the People of the Book, was what sent me to the Bible.

The Quran are words, words cannot be physically touched, but can only be touched with the heart in order to understand them to graps them.

Tell that to the Somalis who did not want me to touch the Qu'ran.

You read Quran but missed soo much and only remembered what you can benifit from inorder to use whatever it may be as a tool against your opposers, not just that your crisiticism is merely mimicing another in dictatorial aspect and non of it so far that I have seen comes from a non dictatorial aspect.

Ah, the words of a diviner.

But You know me, O LORD; You see me; And You examine my heart's attitude toward You. (Jeremiah 12:3)

Blessings!

[Apple Pie]

Greetings H2O,

Thanks for your response…

Quote:
Using your rational, we should expect that John died when he was raised up as well…since you are using this same contextual reasoning to promote Jesus from dying on the cross…

Is this correct?


So tell me when was John resurrected ? Also your looking at this in a christian perspective in which you form of rational is dependent on.

You tell me…after all YOU are the one who thinks that the verse about John applies equally well to Jesus.

Hence, the burden of proof is upon your shoulders.

Please tell me how John died…

In islam Jesus died in his era as John died in his era and both will be raised to life on the day of resurrection.

Thanks for eschewing my question.

Answer the question that was posed to you.

Did John die as he was raised up?

Yes…or…no?



Thanks…

[whosurdaddy]

Remember, Jesus was a spirit being. He could walk thru walls as he did when appearing to the disciples. He also disappeared when eating bread with 2 disciples he met on the road after he rose from the dead. His body was unique; flesh and bone and spirit. Its wrong to state that he died when ascending. Where is the evidence?
Elijah is a different topic. He must have changed somehow in order to enter the spirit world. The Bible does say..."flesh and blood shall not inherit heaven" so Elijah must have changed, but the Bible don't explain it

.

Ehm...let see

Luke 24:

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

Also if before his attempted crucifixion he also ate food and drank where as Spirits are in no need of fleshly sustenance.

So why couldnt the same thing happened to Jesus Just like that of Elijah's
ascension ?

===========================
I give you credit for discussing these things. I tend to think that Islam must have changed over time for people to think that Jesus didn't die on the cross or that he died on his way to heaven. Remember, Jesus changed after he arose from the dead. He had a unique body; his blood was left at the cross. He could eat food. What difference does it make?
You keep stumbling over Jesus, looking for excuses to reject him.

"But we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks, foolishness..." 1 Cor 1vs 23.
"Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming , and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of GOD; and those who hear will live." John 5 vs 25

So you see Jesus IS in heaven. If you quote the Bible as truth, then simply believe the words.

[Liberate]

How is he the son of David ie a descendant of David when his mother was a Levite and Joseph was not a his biological father ?

I couldn't help noticing this lie that you repeatedly chose to parrot from http://www.outreachjudaism.org/mary.html ( a notably anti christianity website) even though we have already had this discussion. There is nowhere in the bible that states that Mary was a Levite, have you thought for one second the reason why the bible calls Elizabeth Zacheriah's wife a cousin/distant relative/kin of Mary is because Elizabeth is also from JUDAH?

Is this the islamic mentality to purport a view that contradicts your core beliefs that Jesus is the Messiah simply to get one up on the opposition? This is the mentality of a suicide bomber.

[H2O]

I ask you again, could you show from the Qu'ra, not the Bible, where there is any indication that the slaying of the prophets is any different from their desire to slay Jesus?

Obviously you dont pay attention

....As far as we know and on document bases Jesus was the only prophet whom the Jews attempted to kill by crucifixion.....

Where did I mention BIBLE in that ? If you see that statement to refer to bible then we got a problem. Let me guess your scimming over my postings ?

Quote:
How is he the son of David ie a descendant of David when his mother was a Levite and Joseph was not a his biological father ?


You are arguing an irrelevant issue. No one is arguing about Jesus' parents, the point I made was that the Messiah could not die, because he had to sit on the throne of David; PER JEWISH SCRIPTURE AND BELIEF

Then dont introduce the thaught then

Quote:
Again it depends on how they were killed. As far as we know and on document bases Jesus was the only prophet whom the Jews attempted to kill by crucifixion.


Death is death.

It is the nature of the death is the issue here. That is what I present from the begining.

Quote:
All the prophets died, indeed, some of them were killed by their enemies some died natural deaths, this has nothing to do with the Law of Deut.


First of all, we have not been talking about "the death of the prophets", don't try to mix it up. We are talking about the KILLING AT THE HANDS of the JEWS/Israelites.

You are the one that elluded to the death of former prophet. If you dont want be to ellaborate on it then dont intruduce the thaught into the arguement.

So, when we speak of those executed by the Jews, we are most certainly going to have to include the law in Deuteronomy, which is not a law about crucifixion, but a law about KILLING A SINNER!

Hmm lets see

Deut: 18:
17 The LORD said to me[Moses]: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

Deut. 21:
22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Deut : 18 Is the Judgment for conviction and Deut 21 is the penalty of the punishment, this is the formal the Sanhedrin used to convict and excute whomsoever it was. Jesus was accused of being a false prophet and Messiah ie a lier also a blasphemer. Is not this a SIN ? This is what he was accused off. Verily indeed he was none of the such and he commited no sin there for such a person as Jesus could not have been punished under such criterior.

"If a man shall have committed a sin whose judgment is death, he shall be put to death..."

"But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you." (Deuteronomy 13:5)

False prophecy; speaking contrary to God's word; blasphemy; these are the sins of a false prophet whose judgment is death!

So, the killing of a prophet is the jugment of a FALSE PROPHET. The hanging on the tree is the judgment of a FALSE PROPHET. There is no difference if the prophet is stoned to death; if his head is rolled off onto a silver-plate; of he is slaughtered in the Temple; if he is killed with the sword; or any of other possible deaths that a man could suffer. The death is the penalty of their sin.

Now you have to find the method of excution for that conviction. For every judgment of the law their is a different way of punishment. But as you say it is all the same and this is where we disagree.

Quote:
There is no eveidence that they tried such a thing with former prophets, and if such a thing did happened with death by crucifixion then there is a flaw in the Law which deprives it of being divinely inspired.


So, if you are wrong, then it is the Scripture that is wrong; but if you are right, then the Scripture is still wrong?

That means there is flaw in the Torah. Dont you see what I am doing using Jewish Perspectives, this is what a Jew will use to argue with you. I agree with the Jewish perspective for their rejection, you may not.

My belief personally on this matter does not rely on Torah nor the Bible. By belief is in the Quran that Jesus was not cruxified. Check back to the beinging of the arguement " if christians believe he was crucified then indirectly for the Jews the more reason to reject him as imposter" in which I elaborated on. If it relivant or irrelivant to you it doesnt matter, what matters is WHO it may be relivant to.

There were various methods of killing; the Jews originally TRIED TO STONE HIM! But their attempts failed in that area, it was not until they finally got it into court, that they were able to get the desires of their heart.

Thats you belief for us he never was in such trial.

It is a continuation, but it is a separation of CHARGE! The prior charge was, 'they spoke against Mary great false charges', and 'AND' indicates an additional charge!

What was the charge? According to the text, the charge was that 'we crucified the Messiah', in boast, as in a display of power and defiance of Allah.

And it continues about there SAYING with the conjuction of "AND" that does not make a distinct clause from their disbelief.

The context of the passage begins a few verse prior to it, with accusations about their breaking of covenant, and their nagging requests for Moses, and end with the proclamation that they must believe, and that the Messiah would be a witness against them.

In the begining of the context it starts with their ungodly actions then followed with the disbelief in their SAYINGS about Maryam and Jesus.

Yusufali's translation puts it nicely:

(They have incurred divine displeasure): In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word; We need no more)";

So how do you know that is translated correctly ? I am not saying it isnt or is not but how do you know ? Cause it SOUNDS right ?

Hold on, I am going by what you wrote here, and so far, you appeared to hold to the traditional position that Jesus was raised to God, without death.

Through this whole thread my self and other have been posting the same verses

Quote:
And they (the enemies of Jesus) plotted (to kill him) and Allah to plotted, and Allah is the best of plotters. When Allah said : "O Jesus ! Verily I am causing you to decease (mutawafee) while raising you to my self and purifying you from those who are disbelievers".....(Quran 3:54-55)


Interesting. The context of the passage would imply that Allah would set himself AGAINST the plotters [correct], not in a race to see who kills the Messiah first.[correct]

It doesn't make sense!

[ what did you think we were implying, remember stop looking at this in a christian perspective ]

It makes alot of sense. What did Allah plot against them ?

"...they killed him not nor crucified him however it appeared to them so...rather Allah rasied him up to himself...(Quran 4:157,158)"

Did not Allah makar (plott/scheim/deceive) them ? When they tried to makar (plott/scheim/deceive) the Son of Maryam ?

My christian websites criticism? That site is this same site, what are you saying? It was merely a little quick exchange, nothing much. I just wanted to show that I know how Muslims take that verse, and how it fits the Muslim argument. That is all.

No wrong not a muslims in general it fit muslims who that particular school of thaught. It has no bases here with us.

So, what is your take on those hadiths; are they truthful in some aspects, or are they totally false?

My personal opinion, I have found much descripancy in hadeeths, also you have to remember that the hadeeth were selected out of over 200,000 by Bukhari who only found 4-5 thousand to be Sahih ie Authentic based on HIS best ability to distiguishing the true from the false. He never said that his work was infallable. His work and all other collecters are subject to error. Let me show you some of what I am talking about.

As we showed from before which you agreed the Hadith is false but here now you are still using it....lol

Anyhow there has to be something wrong here cause Muhammad didnt divorce her to comply with the Quran. Do your home work. What year was Aisha born in ? She was born in 613-614 AD corresponding to the Islamic calendar 8-9 years before the Hijra. Remember she didnt marry Muhammad until 623-624 (1-2 Hijrah) which would make her about 10 years old when he married her, and not 6, When the prophet was taken away Aisha was 19-20 in 632-633 [and not 15-16 if she married him at 6] as all the sources agree to.

If she was 9-10 as the dates show from the time of her birth, the time of her marriage, and the time when she became widowed, she had already reached puberty in which she was a woman. Whereas from then the Surah al-nisaa was revealed about tow years later making her 11-12 years of age. Go do that math like I told you.

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... &start=100

I debated this issue with Liberate who decided to go off the wall onto another subject with Aisha (r.a.h) who was suppose to 6 years old when she married the prophet. My backlash against this is that I showed him with point blank math that the hadith is false in narrating the proper age of Aisha that conflicts with other hadiths and the Quran.

I do not believe hadiths are the divine word of Allah and I do not hold them to be equal to the Quran. I only acept those hadeeth that do not conflict with the Quran. The scholars did there best to weed out the false stuff but this does not mean they were able to get all of them.

Hold on, how could Christians be blamed for EDITING the text, when the translation of the Qu'ran is left up to MUSLIMS! The translations, every single one of them that I have been able to grab a hold of, have all have been Islamic sources.

As far as I have seen Christians quote " When Allah said: O Jesus I am causing you to die.." Then they leave out the rest of the " ...AND/WHILE raising you to my self.." This is what I am talkin about. The arabic word "wa" meaning "and/while" does not demonstrate next in sequence but a conjection of two actions happening at the same time. Muslims who believe Jesus will return in the furture to die do the same thing christians do except in reverse to this verse for it to cooborrate with the hadiths that speak of Jesus's second return.

And what does your quote of zampeada and yourself have to do with my learning of Islamic teachings?

I quoted he in support that there are muslims who believe the same as I do, and I am not the only one. Your study of islam seems to be more Sunni or Salafi (as they call themselves) influenced

My understanding of Islam has come strictly from Islamic sources

Your studies are based on a School of thaught not all of them.

I was reading out of curiosity, and in search for what could be perceived as truth, by the human mind.

But of course, nothing I say can truly change your perception of me, can it? So, let's just leave this up to the way we carry ourselves in the open forum. I am certain you will find very little to accuse me of, and be still justified in it

My point with you is that there is more to islamic study than you are aware of. This is my opinion based on what ou have presented in your knowledge of our deen

Ah, that is what a Somali friend told me, that I could not touch the Qu'ran, unless I was a Muslim. See, I used to work in a place where around 80% + of the people were Muslim, mainly Somali, but a few were from other areas of Africa. And that is why I started reading the Qu'ran, because I had a few chats with them, and I got interested. But one time, when I asked one to give me a Qu'ran, she told me that I could not touch it (the book), but I could only read a few passages that she would copy from it, because I had to believe first, and then read it. Needless to say, I was perplexed.

Yes I have heard this to and have criticized many muslims about this. That verse I quoted has nothing to with what they believed it meant this is ignorance on their behald when Allah in Quran CHALLENGES the disbelievers to find fault inthe Quran. Those somolian muslims who believed such a rediculous thing that non muslims cannot touch the Quran is coming from Sunni school of thaught.

So, instead of asking them for a Qu'ran, I went to Barnes and Nobles, and got down to reading... Then I had another friend, a french lady from Ivory Coast, and she gave me a Qu'ran-- and then I had another friend who gave me one in Spanish -- and I have a number of sources online, from which I can read passages.

Well if you need reference you can download the Quran and Hadith for free at the bottom of this page.

As Jesus said, "seek and ye shall find." But, of course, I found the truth not in the Qu'ran, but in the Bible -- incidentally, the Quranic mentions of Jesus and the Book, and the People of the Book, was what sent me to the Bible.

Then that is your choice and will be the result of your fate you reward in the end the same with me

Tell that to the Somalis who did not want me to touch the Qu'ran.

O indeed they will be brought to account for such a thing with Allah as taught in islam

[H2O]

I tend to think that Islam must have changed over time for people to think that Jesus didn't die on the cross or that he died on his way to heaven

I have found with the vast amount of Jews and Christians etc that have came to islam over the last 1400 years that some of their ideologies also came with them into islam. The same of Middle eastern Cultures that now interpret islam rather than islam interpret their culture, with the rise of nationalism amongst them and scholars that teach nonsense yes, there were changes, changes in the true ideologies of the former people who were with Muhammad (s.a.w.) him self.

[H2O]

There is nowhere in the bible that states that Mary was a Levite, have you thought for one second the reason why the bible calls Elizabeth Zacheriah's wife a cousin/distant relative/kin of Mary is because Elizabeth is also from JUDAH?

Nope go back and read John again please. Elizabeth was of the "daughters of Aaron" who are descendants of Aaron who is the descendant of Levi

[newseed]

Peace H2O,

I wonder if that is scripturally written in the Quran?

I certainly hope you are not trying to make fun of my nick...right?

[19:15] So Peace on him(Yahya) the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that he will be raised up to life (again)!

[19:33] "So Peace is on me(Jesus) the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!"

I think others here are waiting for on you to answer these two scriptures.

And they (the enemies of Jesus) plotted (to kill him) and Allah to plotted, and Allah is the best of plotters. When Allah said : "O Jesus ! Verily I am causing you to decease (mutawafee) while raising you to my self and purifying you from those who are disbelievers".....(Quran 3:54-55)

Allah sounds very human here. Why would Allah be a deceiver? Do you realize (according to the Koran) if that Allah did what he did, that would make him soley responisble for the spread of Christianity? Really now, why would Allah be dishonest and mislead his creation?

and in their (the Jews) disbelief they spoke against Maryam grave false charges, and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so. And verily those who differed there in (that he was not crucified nor killed) were indeed in doubt about it. They had no knowledge about it except that they followed conjecture, and for surety they killed him not, [color=red]rather Allah raised him up to himself (ref. 3:54-55) and Allah is almighty all wise (Quran 4:156-157)

So does it say that Jesus was crucified? Really, read it closely! The main subject is "they" and not Jesus. Who were 'they'? The Jews, right? So in saying, the Jews did not kill Christ...I agree but the Quran failed to say that Romans didn't crucify him either. If you look at history, Romans did the crucifying back then. It would have been much clearer if the verse had said: "He was not killed nor was he crucified." Unfortunately it said 'they'.

[On the Day of Judgement Jesus will say] I did not say to them (the Jews and my followers) but what you commanded me to say that "Worship Allah (In Aramaic Aalah) my Lord and your Lord" and I was a witness over them (the Jews) when I dwelt among them whereas you caused me to decease (ref. 3:54-55) you were the watcher over them and you are a witness over everything (5:116-118)[/color]

I don't why you didn't quote verse 116:

005.116
YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

PICKTHAL: And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?

SHAKIR: And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.

It seems Allah had mistaken thinking that the Trinity consist of three gods...Jesus, Mary and God. An all-knowing(?) Allah would be aware of the definition of the Trinity and would know that Christians DO NOT, and DID NOT, consider Mary equal to God or to Jesus. If Allah clearly understood what the Trinity is, you would have wonder why the Koran did not rebuke the Trinity of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?

Thanks for you time.

For His Harvest,
Eddie

[Apple Pie]

Greetings newseed,

You have made some very excellent points that H2O has been eschewing.

It is obvious that the Muslim argument against the Crucifixion event is weak indeed…this is clearly evident by the non-stop evasiveness of H20.

Even with a Master’s degree, H20 is totally inept and bankrupt at producing a valid argument against the Crucifixion of Jesus.

This is clear for all of us to witness…daily….


Take care…

[Liberate]

There is nowhere in the bible that states that Mary was a Levite, have you thought for one second the reason why the bible calls Elizabeth Zacheriah's wife a cousin/distant relative/kin of Mary is because Elizabeth is also from JUDAH?

Nope go back and read John again please. Elizabeth was of the "daughters of Aaron" who are descendants of Aaron who is the descendant of Levi

Let us be clear that this is what you are trying to say:

i) The bible calls Elizabeth a cousin of Mary

ii) Zechariah marries Elizabeth a "daughter of Aaron"

Conclusion Mary must be a Levite.

There is just one problem here when was the last time one tribe marries another tribe and the resulting child claims descendant of one tribe only?

Let me put it another way, when was the last time a greek marries an american and the resulting child claims greek heritage only? but has an american cousin, does it make the american cousin suddenly greek?

Do you not see for Elizabeth to be a cousin of Mary, Elizabeth also has Judaen blood flowing through her veins?

As we showed from before which you agreed the Hadith is false but here now you are still using it....lol

Anyhow there has to be something wrong here cause Muhammad didnt divorce her to comply with the Quran. Do your home work. What year was Aisha born in ? She was born in 613-614 AD corresponding to the Islamic calendar 8-9 years before the Hijra. Remember she didnt marry Muhammad until 623-624 (1-2 Hijrah) which would make her about 10 years old when he married her, and not 6, When the prophet was taken away Aisha was 19-20 in 632-633 [and not 15-16 if she married him at 6] as all the sources agree to.

If she was 9-10 as the dates show from the time of her birth, the time of her marriage, and the time when she became widowed, she had already reached puberty in which she was a woman. Whereas from then the Surah al-nisaa was revealed about tow years later making her 11-12 years of age. Go do that math like I told you.

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... &start=100

I debated this issue with Liberate who decided to go off the wall onto another subject with Aisha (r.a.h) who was suppose to 6 years old when she married the prophet. My backlash against this is that I showed him with point blank math that the hadith is false in narrating the proper age of Aisha that conflicts with other hadiths and the Quran.

No you did not, you did not prove a thing, if the hadiths about her age are lies, what makes you think the other hadiths about the events she alledgedly took part in were not also lies?

This is what I replied to you:

Personally I don't think you have much ground to stand on, first you are dismissing the hadiths that say she was 9 years old, some of it narrated by Aisha herself, second if she was 14 years old at the battle of Uhud she must have been with the prophet beforehand we can speculate how far back she was with him, third wasn't Aisha suppose to have been married at a young age so she can tell us thousands of ahadith? that puts all those hadiths in jeopardy as forgeries do you want to go along that path? Fourth before you convince us convince your imams, they are the ones sanctioning marriage of preteen girls.

Tabari IX:128 When the Prophet married Aisha, she was very young and not yet ready for consummation.

If you are so quick to dismiss the hadiths that refer to her age as lies, how about the events she is alledged to have taken part in that you use to justify her age couldn't they be fabrications too? (would you care to cite for us which age of Aisha is narrated in the koran and other hadiths that conflicts with her age of 6 yrs before engagement?), all you showed was your penchant for selective aspects of your faith that soothes your conscience which you publicize as the real islam, you are a fringe islamic group that are probably seen as apostates by the 90%+ majority, you are in no position to lecture us on which hadiths are falsified or not, arabic is not even your native language you are in no position to dismiss what several islamic scholars have agreed upon, this is material from your religion those same hadiths you utilise to justify a doctrine in islam you suddenly turn around and claim well this hadith is false even though it does not contradict the koran.

If you want to selectively pick and chose which aspects of your faith you believe that is up to you, there is not one hadith you can cite that shows Aisha was anything other than what she narrated herself.

I do not believe hadiths are the divine word of Allah and I do not hold them to be equal to the Quran. I only acept those hadeeth that do not conflict with the Quran. The scholars did there best to weed out the false stuff but this does not mean they were able to get all of them.

The onus on contradiction in which you claim is on you to show, merely saying I don't think the prophet did this is not enough, that goes to show you are aware that there are some seriously disturbing aspects of Mohammed's life, the koran alludes to which the hadiths shed light on.

According to the most stringent clinical definition of pedophilia, DSM-IV-TR,

Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia
1.Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).

Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 235:

Narrated 'Aisha:

"...the Prophet said to her (Aisha), 'You have been shown to me twice in my dream. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and someone said (to me). 'This is your wife.' When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, 'If this is from Allah, it will be done.'"

2.The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies caused marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.

Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:

Narrated 'Aisha:

"that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)' ".

3.The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.

Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151:

Narrated 'Aisha:

" I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.)"


Here is a list of Muslim countries and their ages of female consent:
http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm

Brunei 14; Egypt 18; Indonesia 17; Iran 14; Iraq 18; Jordan 16; Lebanon 15; Malaysia 16; Morocco 15; Syria 13; Tunisia 20; Turkey 15; UAE 18; Uzbekistan 16.

So you see, Muhammad would be prosecuted for child sex abuse (in one form or another) in these Muslim countries. Cultural relativism is not acceptable for a man whose followers claim is the perfect example of man for all time – which means his deeds must transcend both cultural and temporal boundaries. It might have been okay in the 7th century to have sex with 9-year-olds but not in the 21st century and beyond. Why judge him by modern standards? Because his followers ask him to be: they claim that he is the example of the perfect human being FOR ALL TIME. PS: Allah should have foreseen how much embarrassment this marriage would cause Muhammad and stopped it.

[H2O]

There is just one problem here when was the last time one tribe marries another tribe and the resulting child claims descendant of one tribe only?

The Levite and Aaronite did not intergrate. Please Read the Torah, and the rest of the oldtestamnet over again, they were the only tribe of Israel that did not cohabit with those out side their clan.

Now as to Aisha's age, you said i didnt prove anything ? I would in fact say I did, the hadith contradicts other hadiths that conform with each other, also the hadith contradict the Quran. You can say as you like, the choice is not your it is our audiences. Imagin this you said:

It takes a certain typical islamic arrogance to tell us our beliefs when it is clear you do not understand those genealogies. http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... &start=100

The same applies to you. You forgot how many hadith were collected and rejected as false. We dont need an arrogant christian as your self to tell us what is authentic or not or to interpret our religion. You had the ardacity to say the above but needles to say you dont subject your self to the same rule but want to oppose it on another.

We have our methods of authenticating what hadiths are authentic you have none. As I said before liberate if a hadith speaks good about Muhammad or is for Islam you reject it as false but if the hadith speaks bad or can be used to asert negativity on the behalf for a Christian then it is True.

Point Blank WE do not accept that hadith and many others, so your arguement is with those who accept it, not us. Your better off debating with US wih the Quran instead of the Hadith like what the rest of the other Christians in here are doing.

Your just saying what you are saying cause that (Hadiths) is your main source in criticism against islam, but it doesnt matter, I am not here to disprove any of you but to clearify and yet you all do not know my motive on these forums. Well thats good we will leave you in the blind.

that puts all those hadiths in jeopardy as forgeries do you want to go along that path?

Sure why not I have already done it. Then all the hadiths that speak about Aisha's age are false. I have no probelm with that if it comes down to it. Thats hadith doesnt gain or take any away anything away from us.