Does the Quran have contradictions ?
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H2O
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Does the Quran have contradictions ?
Please list one aledge contradiction of Quran at a time in a single post, not more than one, and I will reply to it, then you can post your second etc.
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Believer
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[61.6] And when Isa son of Marium said: O children of Israel! surely I am the apostle of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Apostle who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic.
Jesus NEVER said any Apostle let alone an Ahmed was coming after Him.
Clearly this is a corrupted misunderstanding of John 14-16 where Christ promises us the Spirit.
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=3810
From my thread I've shown how it is impossible for Jesus to have been speaking about Muhammed.
Jesus NEVER said any Apostle let alone an Ahmed was coming after Him.
Clearly this is a corrupted misunderstanding of John 14-16 where Christ promises us the Spirit.
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=3810
From my thread I've shown how it is impossible for Jesus to have been speaking about Muhammed.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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H2O
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Obviously your comprehension of English is flawed. This post is suppose to be about CONTRADICTIONS IN THE QURAN not Bible v.s. Quran discrepancies.
Again show me where in the Quran there is a contradiction, please post one per each post for me to answer them individually. And I hope you know how to to read Arabic.
Again show me where in the Quran there is a contradiction, please post one per each post for me to answer them individually. And I hope you know how to to read Arabic.
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Believer
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I'm sorry but that is a very poor answer.
Try again. I can't read Arabic BTW.
I have shown you a surah that is based on a misunderstanding.
Isn't that relevant?
Try again. I can't read Arabic BTW.
I have shown you a surah that is based on a misunderstanding.
Isn't that relevant?
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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Believer
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[4.119] (Iblis says:)And most certainly I will lead them astray and excite in them vain desires, and bid them so that they shall slit the ears of the cattle, and most certainly I will bid them so that they shall alter Allah's creation; and whoever takes the Shaitan for a guardian rather than Allah he indeed shall suffer a manifest loss.
[4.120] (Allah says:)He gives them promises and excites vain desires in them; and the Shaitan does not promise them but to deceive.
[16.93] And if Allah please He would certainly make you a single nation, but He causes to err whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases; and most certainly you will be questioned as to what you did.
Iblis says that he leads people astray, Allah reiterates what Iblis says.
But later Allah says he causes people to err and guides only certain people.
[4.120] (Allah says:)He gives them promises and excites vain desires in them; and the Shaitan does not promise them but to deceive.
[16.93] And if Allah please He would certainly make you a single nation, but He causes to err whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases; and most certainly you will be questioned as to what you did.
Iblis says that he leads people astray, Allah reiterates what Iblis says.
But later Allah says he causes people to err and guides only certain people.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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H2O
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Actually no not really. You can explain in English the Contradiction but also you would need to go back to the Arabic Text it self to understand it more if it is really a contradiction or the Translator's error or misunderstanding. Yes translations are subject to error.
I brought up the thing about Arabic cause I will be going back to the arabic and will clearify what it is you claim is a contradiction. If you dont trust my arabic then there are some Christians that speak Arabic www.arabicbible.com who can help assist you. Just copy and paste then email them our dialogue for confirmation about the Arabic. Also whatever it is I mention of arabic will be backed up by Arabic Lexicons for your convenience. So I am ready when you are...Bring it on !!!!
I brought up the thing about Arabic cause I will be going back to the arabic and will clearify what it is you claim is a contradiction. If you dont trust my arabic then there are some Christians that speak Arabic www.arabicbible.com who can help assist you. Just copy and paste then email them our dialogue for confirmation about the Arabic. Also whatever it is I mention of arabic will be backed up by Arabic Lexicons for your convenience. So I am ready when you are...Bring it on !!!!
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H2O
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"...walaakin yudhillu man yashaa'u wa yahdee man yashaa'a..." (16:93)
" yudhillu " ~ to go astray - is passive , followed by "man" ~ whoever - which is the object of the action < goes astray, and not Allah that causes to go astray.
...but He wills whoever to go astray and guides whoever He wills...(16:93)
A person can only go astray if Allah wills it, meaning, if He allows it or not which is reflected with the devil in 4:119 whom Allah willed to lead astray those who disbelieve which of course you have to finish read the entire context to know who it is Allah wills or allows the devil to lead astray :
I quoted abdullah Yusaf Ali's translation which is accurate on these verses so you wont go around thinking I twisted the meaning to fit my purpose. You just had a bad translation.
My hint to you is to double check with all other translators on verses you want to criticize.
" yudhillu " ~ to go astray - is passive , followed by "man" ~ whoever - which is the object of the action < goes astray, and not Allah that causes to go astray.
...but He wills whoever to go astray and guides whoever He wills...(16:93)
A person can only go astray if Allah wills it, meaning, if He allows it or not which is reflected with the devil in 4:119 whom Allah willed to lead astray those who disbelieve which of course you have to finish read the entire context to know who it is Allah wills or allows the devil to lead astray :
[119] "I will mislead them, and I will create in them false desires; I will order them to slit the ears of cattle, and to deface the (fair) nature created by Allah." Whoever, forsaking Allah, takes Satan for a friend, hath of a surety suffered a loss that is manifest.
[4:120] Satan makes them promises, and creates in them false desires; but Satan's promises are nothing but deception.
[4:121] They (his dupes) will have their dwelling in Hell, and from it they will find no way of escape.
[4:122] But those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, We shall soon admit them to Gardens - with rivers flowing beneath - to dwell therein forever. Allah's promise is the truth, and whose word can be truer than Allah's? http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispT ... =119&t=eng
[16:93] If Allah so willed, He could make you all one People: but He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: but ye shall certainly be called to account for all your actions. http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispT ... a=93&t=eng
I quoted abdullah Yusaf Ali's translation which is accurate on these verses so you wont go around thinking I twisted the meaning to fit my purpose. You just had a bad translation.
My hint to you is to double check with all other translators on verses you want to criticize.
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Believer
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Peace H2O,
But doesn't Allah give us free will to make our own decisions?
Is it Allah that lets people become misguided or is it those people themselves that let themselves become misguided? We can agree that Satan cannot do anything if God doesn't want him to do something. He is still under God's control in that sense. But God does let him tempt us, both righteous and unrighteous men are assaulted by Satan, and ultimately it is us that find God or are led astray depending on who we are. I don't see a God that purposely causes others to become mislead, like He's giving people to Satan. No, Satan rebelled from God and wants to mislead us, God wouldn't aide him in his destroying.
I see you're not going to comment on the other post of mine, which has a very good argument. So I would win the argument automatically if you refuse to even comment on it. That's one point for me.
A person can only go astray if Allah wills it, meaning, if He allows it or not which is reflected with the devil in 4:119 whom Allah willed to lead astray those who disbelieve which of course you have to finish read the entire context to know who it is Allah wills or allows the devil to lead astray :
But doesn't Allah give us free will to make our own decisions?
Is it Allah that lets people become misguided or is it those people themselves that let themselves become misguided? We can agree that Satan cannot do anything if God doesn't want him to do something. He is still under God's control in that sense. But God does let him tempt us, both righteous and unrighteous men are assaulted by Satan, and ultimately it is us that find God or are led astray depending on who we are. I don't see a God that purposely causes others to become mislead, like He's giving people to Satan. No, Satan rebelled from God and wants to mislead us, God wouldn't aide him in his destroying.
I see you're not going to comment on the other post of mine, which has a very good argument. So I would win the argument automatically if you refuse to even comment on it. That's one point for me.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
-
Omega
H2O wrote:Actually no not really. You can explain in English the Contradiction but also you would need to go back to the Arabic Text it self to understand it more if it is really a contradiction or the Translator's error or misunderstanding. Yes translations are subject to error.
Satan demonized these liars{Scholars} which brings forth damnable heresies, including scholars who twist the word and worship God with their mouths.
I know you don't believe me but Satan dispatches his demons and they influence scholars who are not saved, making the Bible a Lie.
Sorry if this is off topic my friend because in the hereafter the Absolute Truth will be revealed, and then it will be too late!
Allah is the second demon in authority apart from Satan who gives the
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Omega
H2O wrote:Actually no not really. You can explain in English the Contradiction but also you would need to go back to the Arabic Text it self to understand it more if it is really a contradiction or the Translator's error or misunderstanding. Yes translations are subject to error.
Satan demonized these liars{Scholars} which brings forth damnable heresies, including scholars who twist the word and worship God with their mouths.
I know you don't believe me but Satan dispatches his demons and they influence scholars who are not saved, making the Bible a Lie.
Sorry if this is off topic my friend because in the hereafter the Absolute Truth will be revealed, and then it will be too late!
Allah is the second demon in authority apart from Satan who gives the
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Liberate
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Re: Does the Quran have contradictions ?
H2O wrote:Please list one aledge contradiction of Quran at a time in a single post, not more than one, and I will reply to it, then you can post your second etc.
New articles from http://www.answer-islam.org/muslimcontra.html
He hath no companion. This have I been commanded: I am THE FIRST MOSLEM (almuslimeena).- Sale S. 6.163
Mohammed is the first muslim
And when Musa came at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said: My Lord! show me (Thyself), so that I may look upon Thee. He said: You cannot (bear to) see Me but look at the mountain, if it remains firm in its place, then will you see Me; but when his Lord manifested His glory to the mountain He made it crumble and Musa fell down in a swoon; then when he recovered, he said: Glory be to Thee, I turn to Thee, and I AM THE FIRST OF THE BELIEVERS. S. 7:143
Moses is now the first of the believers
Ibrahim was NOT A JEW, NOR A CHRISTIAN but he was (an) upright (man), A MUSLIM (haneefan musliman), and he was not one of the polytheists.
Maybe it was Abraham
And when I inspired [ Let me guess allah's inspiration/perspiration will be an epileptic fit?] the disciples, (saying): Believe in Me and in My messenger, they said: We believe. Bear witness that we have surrendered (unto Thee) "WE ARE MUSLIMS"
Maybe it was the disciples
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H2O
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Let us see what the Arabic says:
There seems to be some words not translated and alot of interpolated words by the translater. We'll start with the first verse you posted as the standard.
He has no associate , and with thatI am commanded first of the submitters (6:163)
The verse says he (Muhammad) was first (not THE FIRST) of the submitters ~(al-muslimeen) to be instructed with that command which included "He has no associate" . This is not all of the command. The verse before it shows the rest of the command that was instructed to Muhammad which was EDITED by Christians critics:
Say(Muhammad)! Verily my prayer and my ascetic living and my life and my death are for Alllaah Lord of the worlds, He has no associate, and with that I am commanded first of the submitters (6:162-163)
The command is "SAY". Muhammad was first to be commanded of the submitters (muslimeen) of his people with such an instruction. Remember it was Muhammad who received the commands first as he was the one whom the revelation came to.
There is no diffinite article with awwalu (first) which would have been al-awwalu (the first). The arabic word "awwalu" is indefinite.
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..So then when He (Moses) recovered he said : Glory to you ! I turn in repentence and I am first of the believers. (7:143)
Again same thing. Moses was first to repent of the believers of his people. There is no difinite article "al" (the) with "awwalu (first) to be "al-awwalu (the first) in the Quranic text
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Abraham was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was a submissive true believer (3:67)
The arabic words in the Quranic text "haneefan" and "musliman" are read together as "haneefammusliman". The word "musliman" is NOT A NOUN it is an ADJECTIVE in context. The arabic word "Haneef" is a NOUN.
In Arabic just like in Hebrew and Aramaic the modifier of a Noun follows after it not before it whereas Arabic, Hebrew, and Aramaic are read from right to left not left to right like in english.
The word "Muslim" in the arabic language is not a noun but a proper adjective. In the Text of the verse "Musliman" (submissive) is the modifier of the noun "Haneef" (true beleiver).
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..and when I revealed to the Disciples that to believe in Me (Alllaah) and My messenger (Jesus son of Maryam). They said: We believe , and bear witness that we are with those who submit (5:112)
Hmm lets see hear....lets start with your criticism that had nothing to do with the post or I would call a sucker punch. The word "awHaytu" means "I reveal" not "I inspire" as refereing to divine revelation. There are different types of inspiration.
The type of inspirationg that was giving to the desciple was not revelation, but enlightment from Alllaah.
When you read the bible for the first time you became enlightened ~ inspired by its words. You did not receive inspiration directly from G-d the almighty creator with those words. Prophets are the recievers and transmitters of such revelation that is inspired to people. Christian also say that those who wrote the bible and transmitted it were inspired, does this mean the received revelation ? Of course not. Revelation is only inspired to Prophets.
Now the Quranic meaning says " ...and bear witness that we are with those who submit ." not " Bear witness that we have surrendered (unto Thee) "WE ARE MUSLIMS" " Look at the transliterated text above. You will see whoever translated that verse interpolated their own words, and also LEFT WORDS OUT from the context, take a look and see. "muslimoon" means "those who submit" as the arabic word "muslim" means ~ one who submits. Thats is the most horrible translation of have seen yet, but of course the christian web site you copied and pasted that from took advantage of it with out even checking the validity of the source.
Please remember ! We muslims do not believe in translations of the Quran as being divine or it being the Quran, the Quran is in arabic. Quran translations are the best HUMAN effort in conveying the divine MESSAGE to a people whos language is not Arabic. In other words we do not hold the same prestige about the translations of the Quran as you Christians do with the translations of the bible.
laa (no) shareeka (associate) lahu ( He has) wa (and) bi (with) dzaalika (that) u'mirtu (I am commanded) wa (and) ana (I am) awwalu (first) al-muslimeen (The submitters)
He has no associate , and with that I am commanded first of the submitters (6:163)
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falamaa (so then when) afaqaa (he[Moses] recovered) qalaa (he said) subhaanaka ( Glory to you ) tubtu (I turn in repentence) wa (and) ana (I am) awwalu (first) al-mumineen (the believers)
..So then when He (Moses) recovered he said : Glory to you ! I turn in repentence and I am first of the believers. (7:143)
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maa (not) kaana (was) ibraheemu (Abraham) yahuudiyyan (a Jew) walaa (nor) nasraaniyyan (a Christian) walaakin (but) kaana ( he was) haneefan ( a true believer ) musliman (submissive) wa (and) maa (not) kaana (he was) min (of) al-mushrikeen (the poletheists)
Abraham was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was a submissive true believer (3:67)
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wa (and) idz (when) awHaytu (I revealed) ilaa ( to) al-Hawaariyyina ( The Disciples) an ( that ) aaminuu ( to believe) biy ( in Me ) wa (and) bi ( in ) rasuuliy (My messenger) qaaluu (they said) aamannaa ( we believe) wash'had ( and bear witness) bi (with) annanaa ( that we ) muslimoon ( those who submit)
..and when I revealed to the Disciples that to believe in Me (Alllaah) and My messenger (Jesus son of Maryam). They said: We believe , and bear witness that we are with those who submit (5:112)
There seems to be some words not translated and alot of interpolated words by the translater. We'll start with the first verse you posted as the standard.
He has no associate , and with thatI am commanded first of the submitters (6:163)
The verse says he (Muhammad) was first (not THE FIRST) of the submitters ~(al-muslimeen) to be instructed with that command which included "He has no associate" . This is not all of the command. The verse before it shows the rest of the command that was instructed to Muhammad which was EDITED by Christians critics:
Say(Muhammad)! Verily my prayer and my ascetic living and my life and my death are for Alllaah Lord of the worlds, He has no associate, and with that I am commanded first of the submitters (6:162-163)
The command is "SAY". Muhammad was first to be commanded of the submitters (muslimeen) of his people with such an instruction. Remember it was Muhammad who received the commands first as he was the one whom the revelation came to.
There is no diffinite article with awwalu (first) which would have been al-awwalu (the first). The arabic word "awwalu" is indefinite.
======
..So then when He (Moses) recovered he said : Glory to you ! I turn in repentence and I am first of the believers. (7:143)
Again same thing. Moses was first to repent of the believers of his people. There is no difinite article "al" (the) with "awwalu (first) to be "al-awwalu (the first) in the Quranic text
=======
Abraham was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was a submissive true believer (3:67)
The arabic words in the Quranic text "haneefan" and "musliman" are read together as "haneefammusliman". The word "musliman" is NOT A NOUN it is an ADJECTIVE in context. The arabic word "Haneef" is a NOUN.
In Arabic just like in Hebrew and Aramaic the modifier of a Noun follows after it not before it whereas Arabic, Hebrew, and Aramaic are read from right to left not left to right like in english.
The word "Muslim" in the arabic language is not a noun but a proper adjective. In the Text of the verse "Musliman" (submissive) is the modifier of the noun "Haneef" (true beleiver).
======
..and when I revealed to the Disciples that to believe in Me (Alllaah) and My messenger (Jesus son of Maryam). They said: We believe , and bear witness that we are with those who submit (5:112)
Hmm lets see hear....lets start with your criticism that had nothing to do with the post or I would call a sucker punch. The word "awHaytu" means "I reveal" not "I inspire" as refereing to divine revelation. There are different types of inspiration.
inspire
SYLLABICATION: in·spire
PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: n-spr KEY
VERB: Inflected forms: in·spired, in·spir·ing, in·spires
TRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To affect, guide, or arouse by divine influence.
2. To fill with enlivening or exalting emotion: hymns that inspire the congregation; an artist who was inspired by Impressionism.
3a. To stimulate to action; motivate: a sales force that was inspired by the prospect of a bonus. b. To affect or touch: The falling leaves inspired her with sadness.
4. To draw forth; elicit or arouse: a teacher who inspired admiration and respect.
5. To be the cause or source of; bring about: an invention that inspired many imitations.
6. To draw in (air) by inhaling.
7. Archaic a. To breathe on. b. To breathe life into.
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/di ... 67300.html
The type of inspirationg that was giving to the desciple was not revelation, but enlightment from Alllaah.
When you read the bible for the first time you became enlightened ~ inspired by its words. You did not receive inspiration directly from G-d the almighty creator with those words. Prophets are the recievers and transmitters of such revelation that is inspired to people. Christian also say that those who wrote the bible and transmitted it were inspired, does this mean the received revelation ? Of course not. Revelation is only inspired to Prophets.
Now the Quranic meaning says " ...and bear witness that we are with those who submit ." not " Bear witness that we have surrendered (unto Thee) "WE ARE MUSLIMS" " Look at the transliterated text above. You will see whoever translated that verse interpolated their own words, and also LEFT WORDS OUT from the context, take a look and see. "muslimoon" means "those who submit" as the arabic word "muslim" means ~ one who submits. Thats is the most horrible translation of have seen yet, but of course the christian web site you copied and pasted that from took advantage of it with out even checking the validity of the source.
Please remember ! We muslims do not believe in translations of the Quran as being divine or it being the Quran, the Quran is in arabic. Quran translations are the best HUMAN effort in conveying the divine MESSAGE to a people whos language is not Arabic. In other words we do not hold the same prestige about the translations of the Quran as you Christians do with the translations of the bible.
Download Quran and Hadeeth for Free here http://www.islamasoft.co.uk/downloads.html Learn about Islam from a Non dictatorial view
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Liberate
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Let us see what the Arabic says:laa (no) shareeka (associate) lahu ( He has) wa (and) bi (with) dzaalika (that) u'mirtu (I am commanded) wa (and) ana (I am) awwalu (first) al-muslimeen (The submitters)
He has no associate , and with that I am commanded first of the submitters (6:163)
This is the arabic: لَا شَرِيكَ لَهُ وَبِذَلِكَ أُمِرْتُ وَأَنَا أَوَّلُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ
This is what the online translation at http://www.cimos.com/index.asp?src=try says:
There is not partner to him thereat I ordered and I am the first Moslem
------------------------------------------maa (not) kaana (was) ibraheemu (Abraham) yahuudiyyan (a Jew) walaa (nor) nasraaniyyan (a Christian) walaakin (but) kaana ( he was) haneefan ( a true believer ) musliman (submissive) wa (and) maa (not) kaana (he was) min (of) al-mushrikeen (the poletheists)
Abraham was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was a submissive true believer (3:67)
The online translation from the arabic مَا كَانَ اِبْرَهِيمُ يَهُودِيًّا وَلَا نَصْرَانِيًّا وَلَكِنْ كَانَ حَنِيفًا مُسْلِمًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ says "...not Christian but he was a moslem right and what he was not from the polytheists"wa (and) idz (when) awHaytu (I revealed) ilaa ( to) al-Hawaariyyina ( The Disciples) an ( that ) aaminuu ( to believe) biy ( in Me ) wa (and) bi ( in ) rasuuliy (My messenger) qaaluu (they said) aamannaa ( we believe) wash'had ( and bear witness) bi (with) annanaa ( that we ) muslimoon ( those who submit)
..and when I revealed to the Disciples that to believe in Me (Alllaah) and My messenger (Jesus son of Maryam). They said: We believe , and bear witness that we are with those who submit (5:112)
Anybody who checks this translation with the one I gave you will realise this is a completely different verse you have given than the one I sent. From our previous conversations so far it honestly comes as no surprise that you are willing to stoop to this level of fabrication, I gave you 5:111 but you gave me 5:112 in your translation, with the hope that maybe I won't check, why did you put down 5:112? and not 5:111? Is this really a typo?
This is what 5:111 in arabic says: وَإِذْ أَوْحَيْتُ إِلَى الْحَوَارِيِّينَ أَنْ آمِنُوا بِي وَبِرَسُولِي قَالُوا آمَنَّا وَاشْهَدْ بِأَنَّنَا مُسْلِمُونَ
The online translation says: "When I inspired the disciples to believe in me and my prophet they said we believed and attest that we are moslem"There seems to be some words not translated and alot of interpolated words by the translater. ...
Agreed, your honesty and integrity are diminishing with each fabrication.
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H2O
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And again your online translation tool has shown it self to flunk. I presented each transliterated word of the arabic but its seems your little gadget doesnt translate some of those words. No need to go ever this. Let the people decide for themselves. The word muslim means one who submits which is a proper adjective.
When since does Rasool mean prophet ?
Take out you dictionary and look up the word "inspire" and tell me how many meaning it gives you in which there are different types of inspirations.
There are grammatical cases that your translation flunk in to. This is soo silly. I wish there was an Arabic Speaking Christian her to put some of you in your places.
When since does Rasool mean prophet ?
Take out you dictionary and look up the word "inspire" and tell me how many meaning it gives you in which there are different types of inspirations.
There are grammatical cases that your translation flunk in to. This is soo silly. I wish there was an Arabic Speaking Christian her to put some of you in your places.
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Liberate
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And again your online translation tool has shown it self to flunk. I presented each transliterated word of the arabic but its seems your little gadget doesnt translate some of those words. No need to go ever this. Let the people decide for themselves. The word muslim means one who submits which is a proper adjective.
And didn't the translator and all major translations of the koran put down muslim? how come they are all wrong and you are right? Are all 6 accepted translations of the koran incorrect and only you have the monopoly on truth?
For anyone who is unaware what this fellow is doing, he takes an arabic word finds out it's english meaning then goes over to an ENGLISH theasaurus and finds out all the varying aspects of the word, then he translates the arabic with the variance of the word that doesn't contradict what you pointed out to him (it's called making it up as you go along-- made to order koran) to get the koran out of a tight spot. Any arabic speaker would quickly realise this fellow is making a laughing stock out of the context, he is interpreting the quran contrary to the rules of arabic, the context and contrary to all 5 or 6 accepted english translations of the koran ( you have to wonder if Sale, Hilali and Khan, Yusuf Ali, Pickthall et al. were so inept all of them not even one could not translate it properly but only this fellow could). when you ask him where he is getting all this convenient words from he will show you an ENGLISH dictionary.
The generally accepted translations call Abraham a muslim:
Ibrahim was NOT A JEW, NOR A CHRISTIAN but he was (an) upright (man), A MUSLIM (haneefan musliman), and he was not one of the polytheists.
The online translation agrees: "...not Christian but he was a moslem right and what he was not from the polytheists"
but look at the rubbish he put down for that verse:
Abraham was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was a submissive true believer (3:67)
It is not rocket science to realise submissive true believer is a far cry from one who submits.
All because he knows this contradicts the other places where Mohammed is mentioned as the first muslim, and the disciples are mentioned as the first muslims.
This fellow is not here to logically discuss, he is here as a muslim apologetic and a desperate one at that, ofcourse he will assume his audience do not understand a word of arabic so he will pat himself on the back on how smart he is to fool everybody.
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H2O
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This fellow is not here to logically discuss, he is here as a muslim apologetic and a desperate one at that, ofcourse he will assume his audience do not understand a word of arabic so he will pat himself on the back on how smart he is to fool everybody.
Yapping isnt going to get any of you anywhere.
What is the meaning of Muslim ?
What is the meaning of Haneef ?
And Again Liberate your bot translator cannot translate proper grammar nor can it express the meaning of words, nor can it tell you the gender plurality of words.
I leave it to the people to realize that your bot translator is mixing words up and making literal translations. But of course you dont realize that you cannot translate from one language to another language word for word. If you where bilingual then you would understand, but you not.
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H2O
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And didn't the translator and all major translations of the koran put down muslim? how come they are all wrong and you are right? Are all 6 accepted translations of the koran incorrect and only you have the monopoly on truth?
A Christian translation
Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 10:24 pm
[Apple Pie Translates]
Let’s expand the context of your referenced ayahs…
So when Jesus felt from them the disbelief, he said: "Who (are) my victoriors/saviors/supporters to Allah?" The Disciples/victoriors said: "We (are) Allah's victoriors/supporters, we believed with Allah, and (you) be a witness with that we are submitters/surrenderers." (3:52)
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... sc&start=0
Now go use your bot translator and translate the verse that your Christian brother translated. He translated "Muslimoon" as "submitters/surrenderers" He doesnt yet know how to completely translate arabic grammar into english but he is learning I have to give him credit for that.
Why dont you get Apply Pie in here to tanslate the rest of those verses that you are saying that I twisted in their meaning etc. and then compare his translation with mine.
Muslim translators translated many things of the Quran based on culture, ideology, and prejudice. Most of them do not translate Quran based on what it says but rather what they interpret it to mean.
"Are all 6 accepted translations.." Accepted by who. ? Where in the world did you get that from ? All those translators have under went scruitney and criticism by muslims them selves.
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Apple Pie
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Greetings H2O,
I would like to put forth a couple of Creation ayahs that have been bothering me.
Perhaps you could clarify them for me….?
Let’s first examine 41:11 from the Koranic version of the Creation sequence…
ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى إِلَى السَّمَاءِ وَهِيَ دُخَانٌ فَقَالَ لَهَا وَلِلْأَرْضِ اِئْتِيَا طَوْعًا أَوْ كَرْهًا قَالَتَا أَتَيْنَا طَائِعِينَ
Thumma istawa ila alssama-i wahiya dukhanun faqala laha walil-ardi i/tiya tawAAan aw karhan qalata atayna ta-iAAeena
Then He aimed/tended to the sky/space and it is smoke/fumes, so He said to it and to the earth/Planet Earth: "You come voluntarily or forcefully/involuntarily." They said: "We came obedient." (41:11)
As you are probably already aware, this ayah comes ~3/4 of the way through this Koranic sequence…
My question is; where exactly do you think the sky/space and the Earth are going when they reply “We came obedient.”?
Also, just how does this relate to what modern Astrophysics tells us regarding the Creation of the Universe?
Let’s now examine 21:30…that initiates another Koranic Creation sequence…
أَوَلَمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَنَّ السَّمَوَتِ وَالْأَرْضَ كَانَتَا رَتْقًا فَفَتَقْنَهُمَا وَجَعَلْنَا مِنْ الْمَاءِ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ حَى أَفَلَا يُؤْمِنُونَ
Awa lam yara allatheena kafaroo anna alssamawati waal-arda kanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalna mina alma-i kulla shay-in hayyin afala yu/minoona
Did those who disbelieved not see that the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, they were joined, so We split/ruptured them, and We made/created from the water every thing alive/living, so do they not believe? (21:30)
Now…here we have the skies/space and the Earth originally joined, and then split…
How does this relate to the sequence from Sura 41…?
Also, again…just how does this relate to what modern Astrophysics tells us regarding the Creation of the Universe?
Thanks for your time…
I would like to put forth a couple of Creation ayahs that have been bothering me.
Perhaps you could clarify them for me….?
Let’s first examine 41:11 from the Koranic version of the Creation sequence…
ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى إِلَى السَّمَاءِ وَهِيَ دُخَانٌ فَقَالَ لَهَا وَلِلْأَرْضِ اِئْتِيَا طَوْعًا أَوْ كَرْهًا قَالَتَا أَتَيْنَا طَائِعِينَ
Thumma istawa ila alssama-i wahiya dukhanun faqala laha walil-ardi i/tiya tawAAan aw karhan qalata atayna ta-iAAeena
Then He aimed/tended to the sky/space and it is smoke/fumes, so He said to it and to the earth/Planet Earth: "You come voluntarily or forcefully/involuntarily." They said: "We came obedient." (41:11)
As you are probably already aware, this ayah comes ~3/4 of the way through this Koranic sequence…
My question is; where exactly do you think the sky/space and the Earth are going when they reply “We came obedient.”?
Also, just how does this relate to what modern Astrophysics tells us regarding the Creation of the Universe?
Let’s now examine 21:30…that initiates another Koranic Creation sequence…
أَوَلَمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَنَّ السَّمَوَتِ وَالْأَرْضَ كَانَتَا رَتْقًا فَفَتَقْنَهُمَا وَجَعَلْنَا مِنْ الْمَاءِ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ حَى أَفَلَا يُؤْمِنُونَ
Awa lam yara allatheena kafaroo anna alssamawati waal-arda kanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalna mina alma-i kulla shay-in hayyin afala yu/minoona
Did those who disbelieved not see that the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, they were joined, so We split/ruptured them, and We made/created from the water every thing alive/living, so do they not believe? (21:30)
Now…here we have the skies/space and the Earth originally joined, and then split…
How does this relate to the sequence from Sura 41…?
Also, again…just how does this relate to what modern Astrophysics tells us regarding the Creation of the Universe?
Thanks for your time…
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H2O
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I will answer your question Apple Pie but first for the audience, What is you educational level or I would say what is knowledge base on quantum physics, meteorology, and astronomy ? Are you just a spectator, layman or expert in these fields ? Hmm maybe thats to hard for ya. Let try this, From 1-12 what do you grade your self in the knowledge field of each of those topic.
Note I am still going to answer your question, I just want our audience to be aware of you educational level in these fields.
Note I am still going to answer your question, I just want our audience to be aware of you educational level in these fields.
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Apple Pie
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Greetings H2O,
Thanks for your reply…
Unlike you, I don’t parade my education level front and center…
I am interested in dialogue, pure and simple…I’m not the least bit interested in looking for ad hominem material…of which, seems to be quite important to you…
I personally don’t care what gender, race, faith, or educational level a person has, that I dialogue with….nor do I ever ask…
What matters is how the material in dialogue is handled…and if the position can be readily verified with support...
Just begin your rebuttal, and we all can verify for ourselves who has the best position…
I’m sure that you can understand this…
Thanks for your reply…
I will answer your question Apple Pie but first for the audience, What is you educational level or I would say what is knowledge base on quantum physics, meteorology, and astronomy ? Are you just a spectator, layman or expert in these fields ? Hmm maybe thats to hard for ya. Let try this, From 1-12 what do you grade your self in the knowledge field of each of those topic.
Unlike you, I don’t parade my education level front and center…
I am interested in dialogue, pure and simple…I’m not the least bit interested in looking for ad hominem material…of which, seems to be quite important to you…
I personally don’t care what gender, race, faith, or educational level a person has, that I dialogue with….nor do I ever ask…
What matters is how the material in dialogue is handled…and if the position can be readily verified with support...
Note I am still going to answer your question, I just want our audience to be aware of you educational level in these fields.
Just begin your rebuttal, and we all can verify for ourselves who has the best position…
I’m sure that you can understand this…
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H2O
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Ok it seems now you all are getting really lame now. You wanna attack my degree of education. Is the below better now 
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Apple Pie
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Greetings H2O,
Let’s look at your rebuttal…
Don’t let my comments change how you feel about yourself…
BTW…I fully understand that you are stalling….but, this is not a timed test….take your time and research for the answer that best fits the questions that I posed to you…
And….if you are unable to respond, then please just say so…
I will understand…just like I have with Sura 86….
Have fun…
Let’s look at your rebuttal…
Ok it seems now you all are getting really lame now. You wanna attack my degree of education. Is the below better now
Don’t let my comments change how you feel about yourself…
BTW…I fully understand that you are stalling….but, this is not a timed test….take your time and research for the answer that best fits the questions that I posed to you…
And….if you are unable to respond, then please just say so…
I will understand…just like I have with Sura 86….
Have fun…
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H2O
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LOL ! You cant get off of Surah 86 huh ?.
I said what I had to say and you can take it as hwo you like. Any how let me get back to typing...
I said what I had to say and you can take it as hwo you like. Any how let me get back to typing...
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Apple Pie
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Greetings H2O,
Let’s take a gander at your rebuttal…
Like I said earlier, you never should have replied to a thread in which you apparently cannot refute….
And, yes....I am getting the biggest kick out of Muslims complete and utter failure to refute my exegesis....as you have already proven true...I can safely add your name to my burgeoning list…
Another stall attempt…..
Again…take your time…
Let’s take a gander at your rebuttal…
LOL ! You cant get off of Surah 86 huh ?.
Like I said earlier, you never should have replied to a thread in which you apparently cannot refute….
And, yes....I am getting the biggest kick out of Muslims complete and utter failure to refute my exegesis....as you have already proven true...I can safely add your name to my burgeoning list…
I said what I had to say and you can take it as hwo you like. Any how let me get back to typing...
Another stall attempt…..
Again…take your time…
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H2O
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ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى إِلَى السَّمَاءِ وَهِيَ دُخَانٌ فَقَالَ لَهَا وَلِلْأَرْضِ اِئْتِيَا طَوْعًا أَوْ كَرْهًا قَالَتَا أَتَيْنَا طَائِعِينَ
Thumma istawa ila alssama-i wahiya dukhanun faqala laha walil-ardi i/tiya tawAAan aw karhan qalata atayna ta-iAAeena
Then He aimed/tended to the sky/space and it is smoke/fumes, so He said to it and to the earth/Planet Earth: "You come voluntarily or forcefully/involuntarily." They said: "We came obedient." (41:11)
I have a big problem with what you translated or what you are trying to translate.
"he aimed/tended" Where did you get this from ? The Arabic word اسْتَوَى ~ istawaa means to erect http://alqamoos.sakhr.com/idrisidic_1.a ... 3%e6%f3%ec . The word following after that is إِلَى ~ "ilaa" which means to or up to . " istawaa ilaa " expresses " erect upwards".
Also the Arabic word “ i’tiyaa “ means to “come together” as it is applied to more than one in that context. There is a separate word in Arabic “ta’al” or “ta’alaa” that means “come” indicating to move in the direction of the speaker.
and then He erected up the sky while it was smoke/gas/fumes (dukhaan), then He said to it (dukhaan) and to the ardh (?): Come together willingly or unwillingly ! They both said “ We come together willingly ! “
When I read that verse that is what is saying. Also we have to find out about “ardh”, in which I cannot elaborate on this verse cause it has a context that tells us more about the “ardh”
What does “ardh” mean. It means “ ground, soil, earth, or land “ We must go back to to the context:
Say (Muhammad) ! Do you then disbelieve in Him who created the “ardh” in two days and you make rivals for Him ? That is the Lord of the worlds. He placed on it (the ardh) anchored mountains on top of it and he blessed into it and he ordained into it its nourishment into four days equally for the inquirers. And then He erected up the sky while it was smoke/gas/fumes (dukhaan), then He said to it (dukhaan) and to the ardh (?): Come together willingly or unwillingly ! They both said “ We come together willingly ! “
Allah created the “ardh” which is described by Allah as being under the mountain in which the mountains are anchored on top of it. Then He blessed it and ordained in it is nourishment. Next, Allah erected the sky when it was gas/smoke/fumes (dukhaan). In order to get gas/smoke/fumes (dukhan) there must have been some sort of HEAT. So some where after the ardh was made and before the “dukhaan” there was heat in order to have gas/smoke/fumes.
*The “ardh” refered to is under the mountains
*There was heat that caused gas/smoke/fumes
*The dukhaan was erected as the sky
Five billion years ago the Earth was formed in a massive conglomeration and bombardment of meteorites and comets. The immense amount of heat energy released by the high-velocity bombardment melted the entire planet, and it is still cooling off today. Denser materials like iron (Fe) from the meteroites sank into the core of the Earth, while lighter silicates (Si), other oxygen (O) compounds, and water from comets rose near the surface.
(J. Louie)
The earth is divided into four main layers: the inner core, outer core, mantle, and crust. The core is composed mostly of iron (Fe) and is so hot that the outer core is molten, with about 10% sulphur (S). The inner core is under such extreme pressure that it remains solid. Most of the Earth's mass is in the mantle, which is composed of iron (Fe), magnesium (Mg), aluminum (Al), silicon (Si), and oxygen (O) silicate compounds. At over 1000 degrees C, the mantle is solid but can deform slowly in a plastic manner. The crust is much thinner than any of the other layers, and is composed of the least dense calcium (Ca) and sodium (Na) aluminum-silicate minerals. Being relatively cold, the crust is rocky and brittle, so it can fracture in earthquakes.
http://www.seismo.unr.edu/ftp/pub/louie ... erior.html
The Earth is made of many different and distinct layers. The deeper layers are composed of heavier materials; they are hotter, denser and under much greater pressure than the outer layers.
Core: The Earth has a iron-nickel core that is about 2,100 miles in radius. The inner core may have a temperature up to about 13,000°F (7,200°C = 7,500 K), which is hotter than the surface of the Sun. The inner core (which has a radius of about 750 miles (1,228 km) is solid. The outer core is in a liquid state and is about 1,400 miles (2,260 km) thick.
Mantle: Under the crust is the rocky mantle, which is composed of silicon, oxygen, magnesium, iron, aluminum, and calcium. The upper mantle is rigid and is part of the lithosphere (together with the crust). The lower mantle flows slowly, at a rate of a few centimeters per year. The asthenosphere is a part of the upper mantle that exhibits plastic properties. It is located below the lithosphere (the crust and upper mantle), between about 100 and 250 kilometers deep.
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjec ... side.shtml
Lets go to the next verse
Let’s now examine 21:30…that initiates another Koranic Creation sequence…
أَوَلَمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَنَّ السَّمَوَتِ وَالْأَرْضَ كَانَتَا رَتْقًا فَفَتَقْنَهُمَا وَجَعَلْنَا مِنْ الْمَاءِ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ حَى أَفَلَا يُؤْمِنُونَ
Awa lam yara allatheena kafaroo anna alssamawati waal-arda kanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalna mina alma-i kulla shay-in hayyin afala yu/minoona
Did those who disbelieved not see that the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, they were joined, so We split/ruptured them, and We made/created from the water every thing alive/living, so do they not believe? (21:30)
Now…here we have the skies/space and the Earth originally joined, and then split…
How does this relate to the sequence from Sura 41…?
Also, again…just how does this relate to what modern Astrophysics tells us regarding the Creation of the Universe?
Horrible translation you don’t even know how to translate the grammar. Let me help you out here but this in its context.
And did not the disbelievers notice that the firmaments and the ardh were both sewed up then We ripped them apart ? And We made every living thing from water. So then will you believe ? And we have placed on the ardh anchored mountains unless it shakes with them and we made on it paths so that they maybe guided. (Quran 21:30-31)
Again the "ardh" referred to here is what is under the mountains. The firmaments spoken of here is plural which is not referring to the sky (singular) that was gas/smoke/fumes “dukhaan” in 41:11 as the "ardh" spoken og here is before the anchored mountians were placed on it in which the dukhaan gas/smoke/fumes was produced after.
Allah said in 41:9 before he placed on the "ardh" anchored mountains he made the “ardh” first. The questionis, is what did He make the “ardh” from ?
The ardh which is under the mountains is expressed was once a part of “the firmaments” which He ripped apart, then there was water.
The firmaments or SPACE, in its plural sense, is made up of gasses. These gasses are Hydrogen and Helium. The universe is expanding, and while it is expanding it is also cooling which tells us that these gasses were at a incomprehensible heat in which all things at some point in the reverse thesis was apart of each other.
When Hydrogen and Helium are heated together it produces mass to that of the condition of the Sun in which the core of our planet in which the Quran is referring to as “ardh” which is beneath the mountains is of such nature. When it is starts to cool it starts to break down into solids liquids and gasses in which water was produced H2O.
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Apple Pie
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Greetings H2O,
Thanks for making an effort to reply…
For post brevity, I have taken the liberty of concentrating this reply to the Creation sequence contained in Sura 41…
Let’s look for ourselves…
اسْتَوَى = “istawa”
“istawa” definition:
To establish, become firm or settled, turn to a thing, to direct one’s direction to a thing, mount. It comes from the root “sawiya”, which means to be worth, equivalent to.
اسْتَوَى “istawa” combined with إِلَى “ila”, means he turned himself towards, attained perfection, stood firm, attained perfection and fullest vigor.
Reference:
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 280
Thus, as you can verify for yourself, your “online” MODERN Arabic resource is completely defunct in relaying the intended message of the CLASSIC Arabic in which the Koran was written.
It is obvious throughout our discussions that you don’t have any classic Arabic reference materials handy…..perhaps, sometime in the future, (whenever you get serious) your graduate degree can earn you enough extra $ so that you are able to spring for some classic Arabic Lexicons that would get you out of your obvious rut, and into the truth…
And…?
Please elaborate…..as this was the question that I posed to you….remember…?
Well….I appreciate the colorful webpaste that filled in the gaps of your post, but, it hardly buttresses your position…in fact, you go to great lengths to avoid my original question (no surprise here, as this is a prerequisite to being a Muslim).
However, it is painfully clear that you have already followed the Koranic creation sequence as it incorrectly orders the Creation sequence as we can validate against modern Astrophysics.
Please tell me how you can have the Earth being formed before (in your very own words) “erecting the sky when it was gas/smoked/fumes…”?
If you understood anything regarding Astrophysics, then you would have known that planets (such as Earth) form via accretion, and require that the Sun be formed first.
Thus, the sky cannot be “erected” after the earth is formed. Earth was formed long after the sun and the skies were formed.
Let’s take a look at this ayah in full context, and see how the Koran gaffs this Creation sequence….
Regarding the Koranic sequence account contained in Sura 41; we know that a sequence or succession is clearly mandated through the usage of the Arabic conjunctions “thumma” and “fa”.
Thus, we have the following:
41:9 Say: "Do you disbelieve with who created the earth/Planet Earth in TWO DAYS, and you make/put for Him equals (idols), that (is) the creations all together's/(universes') Lord.
41:9 Qul a-innakum latakfuroona biallathee khalaqa al-arda fee yawmayni watajAAaloona lahu andadan thalika rabbu alAAalameena
Comments:
1) “Do you disbelieve with who created the earth/Planet Earth in TWO DAYS…”
2) AND, “you make/put for Him equals (idols), that (is) the creations all together's/(universes') Lord.”
41:9 Summary:
1) Earth was created in TWO days.
41:10 And He made/put in it anchors/fixtures/mountains from above it, and He blessed in it, and He predestined/evaluated in it its provision in FOUR DAYS, straight/equal to the askers/questioners .
41:10 WajaAAala feeha rawasiya min FAwqiha wabaraka feeha waqaddara feeha aqwataha fee arbaAAati ayyamin sawaan lilssa-ileena
Comments:
Point of reference of allah is the earth’s surface.
1) AND, “He made/put in it anchors/fixtures/mountains from above it….”
2) AND, “He blessed in it….”
3) AND, “He predestined/evaluated in it its provision in FOUR DAYS, straight/equal to the askers/questioners.”
41:10 Summary:
1) The Mountains were created as viewed from the Earth’s surface.
2) He made a food provision in FOUR DAYS.
3) 41:9 (2 Days)…..plus……41:10 (4 Days)……equals 6 Days.
41:11 THEN He aimed/tended to the sky/space and it is smoke/fumes, SO He said to it and to the earth/Planet Earth: "You come voluntarily or forcefully/involuntarily ." They said: "We came obedient."
41:11 THUMMA istawa ila alssama-i wahiya dukhanun FAqala laha walil-ardi i/tiya tawAAan aw karhan qalata atayna ta-iAAeena
Comments:
Point of reference of allah is still the earth’s surface.
1) THEN, he aimed/tended to the sky-space when it is smoke/fumes.
2) THEN, he says to the sky/space AND to the Earth “"You come voluntarily or forcefully/involuntarily.”
3) The sky/space say, “We came obedient."
41:11 Summary:
1) From the vantage point of the Earth’s surface, allah turns to the sky and it is smoke.
2) Then he calls to the heavens and earth to come.
3) 41:9 (2 Days)…..plus……41:10 (4 Days)……equals 6 Days.
41:12 SO He ordered/accomplished them (as) seven skies/space(s) in TWO DAYS, and He inspired/transmitted in every/each sky/space its matter/affair/order/command, and We decorated/beautified the present world's sky/space with lights/stars and a protection/ observation, that (is) the glorious'/might’s, the knowledgeable's predestination/ evaluation .
41:12 FAqadahunna sabAAa samawatin fee yawmayni waawha fee kulli sama-in amraha wazayyanna alssamaa alddunya bimasabeeha wahifthan thalika taqdeeru alAAazeezi alAAaleemi
Comments:
Point of reference of allah is STILL the earth’s surface.
1) THEN, he accomplished them (the sky/space AND the earth) as seven skies/spaces in TWO days.
2) AND, “He inspired/transmitted in every/each sky/space its matter/affair/order/command….”
3) AND, “We decorated/beautified the present world's sky/space with lights/stars….”
4) AND, “a protection/ observation, that (is) the glorious'/might’s, the knowledgeable's predestination/ evaluation.”
41:12 Summary:
1) allah creates seven heavens in TWO DAYS.
2) He places the stars in the LOWEST of the seven heavens.
3) He makes the stars for protection.
4) 41:9 (2 Days)…..plus……41:10 (4 Days)……41:12 (2 Days)…equals 8 Days!
Integrated Summary:
1) “Do you disbelieve with who created the earth/Planet Earth in TWO days…”
2) AND, “you make/put for Him equals (idols), that (is) the creations all together's/(universes') Lord.”
3) AND, “He made/put in it anchors/fixtures/mountains from above it….”
4) AND, “He blessed in it….”
5) AND, “He predestined/evaluated in it its provision in FOUR days, straight/equal to the askers/questioners.”
6) THEN, he aimed/tended to the sky-space when it was smoke/fumes.
7) THEN, he says to the sky/space AND to the Earth “"You come voluntarily or forcefully/involuntarily.”
8 ) The sky/space say, “We came obedient."
9) THEN, he accomplished them (the sky/space AND the earth) as seven skies/spaces in TWO days.
10) AND, “He inspired/transmitted in every/each sky/space its matter/affair/order/command….”
11) AND, “We decorated/beautified the present world's sky/space with lights/stars….”
12) AND, “a protection/ observation, that (is) the glorious'/might’s, the knowledgeable's predestination/ evaluation.”
Conclusions:
1) The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 DIRECTLY contradicts the (7X) 6-day verses that reside within the Koran.
The Koran is in Great error here.
How many days in creation? 6,7,8?!
Strike #1.
2) The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 places the creation of the Seven heavens/skies/spaces, AFTER the completion of the Earth.
This is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE as planetary accretion is ONLY possible AFTER star formation has occurred.
Thus, the Koran is in Great error here, as well.
Strike #2.
3) The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 has the earth COMPLETED AND FURNISHED with food provision BEFORE the Sun is created!
Sorry, but major gaff here.
The sun is required not only for heat and photosynthesis, but also for metabolism.
NO Sun…NO life!
Strike #3.
4) The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 INCORRECTLY mentions Seven heavens.
Sorry, but there are NOT Seven heavens in the Universe. Would YOU like to know where the Koran pilfers this from?
Thus, the Koran is in Great error here, as well.
Strike #4.
5) The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 INCORRECTLY places the stars in the lowest of the Seven heavens.
Sorry, but this is yet another Koranic blunder. The Stars are NOT limited to some fictitious Lower Seventh heaven.
Strike #5.
6) The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 INCORRECTLY states that the Stars are placed in heaven for protection.
This is yet another unscientific fabrication.
The Koran twisted the meaning of this phrase right from the Book of Revelation.
Strike # 6.
Thus , you can see for yourself how the Koran cannot be the WORD of the true Creator God of the Holy Bible.
Not only does the Koran contain ZERO details on the First day, but then it proceeds to major league GAFF the entire Creation sequence when it attempts to list the entire sequence.
The Koran cannot even COPY the Holy Bible without messing up!
I’m sure that YOU will come to appreciate the Koran for what it is…just as I have.
Thanks…
Thanks for making an effort to reply…
For post brevity, I have taken the liberty of concentrating this reply to the Creation sequence contained in Sura 41…
Quote:
ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى إِلَى السَّمَاءِ وَهِيَ دُخَانٌ فَقَالَ لَهَا وَلِلْأَرْضِ اِئْتِيَا طَوْعًا أَوْ كَرْهًا قَالَتَا أَتَيْنَا طَائِعِينَ
Thumma istawa ila alssama-i wahiya dukhanun faqala laha walil-ardi i/tiya tawAAan aw karhan qalata atayna ta-iAAeena
Then He aimed/tended to the sky/space and it is smoke/fumes, so He said to it and to the earth/Planet Earth: "You come voluntarily or forcefully/involuntarily." They said: "We came obedient." (41:11)
I have a big problem with what you translated or what you are trying to translate.
"he aimed/tended" Where did you get this from ? The Arabic word اسْتَوَى ~ istawaa means to erect http://alqamoos.sakhr.com/idrisidic_1.a ... 3%e6%f3%ec . The word following after that is إِلَى ~ "ilaa" which means to or up to . " istawaa ilaa " expresses " erect upwards".
Let’s look for ourselves…
اسْتَوَى = “istawa”
“istawa” definition:
To establish, become firm or settled, turn to a thing, to direct one’s direction to a thing, mount. It comes from the root “sawiya”, which means to be worth, equivalent to.
اسْتَوَى “istawa” combined with إِلَى “ila”, means he turned himself towards, attained perfection, stood firm, attained perfection and fullest vigor.
Reference:
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 280
Thus, as you can verify for yourself, your “online” MODERN Arabic resource is completely defunct in relaying the intended message of the CLASSIC Arabic in which the Koran was written.
It is obvious throughout our discussions that you don’t have any classic Arabic reference materials handy…..perhaps, sometime in the future, (whenever you get serious) your graduate degree can earn you enough extra $ so that you are able to spring for some classic Arabic Lexicons that would get you out of your obvious rut, and into the truth…
Also the Arabic word “ i’tiyaa “ means to “come together” as it is applied to more than one in that context. There is a separate word in Arabic “ta’al” or “ta’alaa” that means “come” indicating to move in the direction of the speaker.
And…?
Please elaborate…..as this was the question that I posed to you….remember…?
Quote:
and then He erected up the sky while it was smoke/gas/fumes (dukhaan), then He said to it (dukhaan) and to the ardh (?): Come together willingly or unwillingly ! They both said “ We come together willingly ! “
When I read that verse that is what is saying. Also we have to find out about “ardh”, in which I cannot elaborate on this verse cause it has a context that tells us more about the “ardh”
What does “ardh” mean. It means “ ground, soil, earth, or land “ We must go back to to the context:
Quote:
Say (Muhammad) ! Do you then disbelieve in Him who created the “ardh” in two days and you make rivals for Him ? That is the Lord of the worlds. He placed on it (the ardh) anchored mountains on top of it and he blessed into it and he ordained into it its nourishment into four days equally for the inquirers. And then He erected up the sky while it was smoke/gas/fumes (dukhaan), then He said to it (dukhaan) and to the ardh (?): Come together willingly or unwillingly ! They both said “ We come together willingly ! “
Allah created the “ardh” which is described by Allah as being under the mountain in which the mountains are anchored on top of it. Then He blessed it and ordained in it is nourishment. Next, Allah erected the sky when it was gas/smoke/fumes (dukhaan). In order to get gas/smoke/fumes (dukhan) there must have been some sort of HEAT. So some where after the ardh was made and before the “dukhaan” there was heat in order to have gas/smoke/fumes.
*The “ardh” refered to is under the mountains
*There was heat that caused gas/smoke/fumes
*The dukhaan was erected as the sky
Well….I appreciate the colorful webpaste that filled in the gaps of your post, but, it hardly buttresses your position…in fact, you go to great lengths to avoid my original question (no surprise here, as this is a prerequisite to being a Muslim).
However, it is painfully clear that you have already followed the Koranic creation sequence as it incorrectly orders the Creation sequence as we can validate against modern Astrophysics.
Please tell me how you can have the Earth being formed before (in your very own words) “erecting the sky when it was gas/smoked/fumes…”?
If you understood anything regarding Astrophysics, then you would have known that planets (such as Earth) form via accretion, and require that the Sun be formed first.
Thus, the sky cannot be “erected” after the earth is formed. Earth was formed long after the sun and the skies were formed.
Let’s take a look at this ayah in full context, and see how the Koran gaffs this Creation sequence….
Regarding the Koranic sequence account contained in Sura 41; we know that a sequence or succession is clearly mandated through the usage of the Arabic conjunctions “thumma” and “fa”.
Thus, we have the following:
41:9 Say: "Do you disbelieve with who created the earth/Planet Earth in TWO DAYS, and you make/put for Him equals (idols), that (is) the creations all together's/(universes') Lord.
41:9 Qul a-innakum latakfuroona biallathee khalaqa al-arda fee yawmayni watajAAaloona lahu andadan thalika rabbu alAAalameena
Comments:
1) “Do you disbelieve with who created the earth/Planet Earth in TWO DAYS…”
2) AND, “you make/put for Him equals (idols), that (is) the creations all together's/(universes') Lord.”
41:9 Summary:
1) Earth was created in TWO days.
41:10 And He made/put in it anchors/fixtures/mountains from above it, and He blessed in it, and He predestined/evaluated in it its provision in FOUR DAYS, straight/equal to the askers/questioners .
41:10 WajaAAala feeha rawasiya min FAwqiha wabaraka feeha waqaddara feeha aqwataha fee arbaAAati ayyamin sawaan lilssa-ileena
Comments:
Point of reference of allah is the earth’s surface.
1) AND, “He made/put in it anchors/fixtures/mountains from above it….”
2) AND, “He blessed in it….”
3) AND, “He predestined/evaluated in it its provision in FOUR DAYS, straight/equal to the askers/questioners.”
41:10 Summary:
1) The Mountains were created as viewed from the Earth’s surface.
2) He made a food provision in FOUR DAYS.
3) 41:9 (2 Days)…..plus……41:10 (4 Days)……equals 6 Days.
41:11 THEN He aimed/tended to the sky/space and it is smoke/fumes, SO He said to it and to the earth/Planet Earth: "You come voluntarily or forcefully/involuntarily ." They said: "We came obedient."
41:11 THUMMA istawa ila alssama-i wahiya dukhanun FAqala laha walil-ardi i/tiya tawAAan aw karhan qalata atayna ta-iAAeena
Comments:
Point of reference of allah is still the earth’s surface.
1) THEN, he aimed/tended to the sky-space when it is smoke/fumes.
2) THEN, he says to the sky/space AND to the Earth “"You come voluntarily or forcefully/involuntarily.”
3) The sky/space say, “We came obedient."
41:11 Summary:
1) From the vantage point of the Earth’s surface, allah turns to the sky and it is smoke.
2) Then he calls to the heavens and earth to come.
3) 41:9 (2 Days)…..plus……41:10 (4 Days)……equals 6 Days.
41:12 SO He ordered/accomplished them (as) seven skies/space(s) in TWO DAYS, and He inspired/transmitted in every/each sky/space its matter/affair/order/command, and We decorated/beautified the present world's sky/space with lights/stars and a protection/ observation, that (is) the glorious'/might’s, the knowledgeable's predestination/ evaluation .
41:12 FAqadahunna sabAAa samawatin fee yawmayni waawha fee kulli sama-in amraha wazayyanna alssamaa alddunya bimasabeeha wahifthan thalika taqdeeru alAAazeezi alAAaleemi
Comments:
Point of reference of allah is STILL the earth’s surface.
1) THEN, he accomplished them (the sky/space AND the earth) as seven skies/spaces in TWO days.
2) AND, “He inspired/transmitted in every/each sky/space its matter/affair/order/command….”
3) AND, “We decorated/beautified the present world's sky/space with lights/stars….”
4) AND, “a protection/ observation, that (is) the glorious'/might’s, the knowledgeable's predestination/ evaluation.”
41:12 Summary:
1) allah creates seven heavens in TWO DAYS.
2) He places the stars in the LOWEST of the seven heavens.
3) He makes the stars for protection.
4) 41:9 (2 Days)…..plus……41:10 (4 Days)……41:12 (2 Days)…equals 8 Days!
Integrated Summary:
1) “Do you disbelieve with who created the earth/Planet Earth in TWO days…”
2) AND, “you make/put for Him equals (idols), that (is) the creations all together's/(universes') Lord.”
3) AND, “He made/put in it anchors/fixtures/mountains from above it….”
4) AND, “He blessed in it….”
5) AND, “He predestined/evaluated in it its provision in FOUR days, straight/equal to the askers/questioners.”
6) THEN, he aimed/tended to the sky-space when it was smoke/fumes.
7) THEN, he says to the sky/space AND to the Earth “"You come voluntarily or forcefully/involuntarily.”
8 ) The sky/space say, “We came obedient."
9) THEN, he accomplished them (the sky/space AND the earth) as seven skies/spaces in TWO days.
10) AND, “He inspired/transmitted in every/each sky/space its matter/affair/order/command….”
11) AND, “We decorated/beautified the present world's sky/space with lights/stars….”
12) AND, “a protection/ observation, that (is) the glorious'/might’s, the knowledgeable's predestination/ evaluation.”
Conclusions:
1) The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 DIRECTLY contradicts the (7X) 6-day verses that reside within the Koran.
The Koran is in Great error here.
How many days in creation? 6,7,8?!
Strike #1.
2) The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 places the creation of the Seven heavens/skies/spaces, AFTER the completion of the Earth.
This is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE as planetary accretion is ONLY possible AFTER star formation has occurred.
Thus, the Koran is in Great error here, as well.
Strike #2.
3) The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 has the earth COMPLETED AND FURNISHED with food provision BEFORE the Sun is created!
Sorry, but major gaff here.
The sun is required not only for heat and photosynthesis, but also for metabolism.
NO Sun…NO life!
Strike #3.
4) The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 INCORRECTLY mentions Seven heavens.
Sorry, but there are NOT Seven heavens in the Universe. Would YOU like to know where the Koran pilfers this from?
Thus, the Koran is in Great error here, as well.
Strike #4.
5) The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 INCORRECTLY places the stars in the lowest of the Seven heavens.
Sorry, but this is yet another Koranic blunder. The Stars are NOT limited to some fictitious Lower Seventh heaven.
Strike #5.
6) The Creation sequence of Sura 41:9-12 INCORRECTLY states that the Stars are placed in heaven for protection.
This is yet another unscientific fabrication.
The Koran twisted the meaning of this phrase right from the Book of Revelation.
Strike # 6.
Thus , you can see for yourself how the Koran cannot be the WORD of the true Creator God of the Holy Bible.
Not only does the Koran contain ZERO details on the First day, but then it proceeds to major league GAFF the entire Creation sequence when it attempts to list the entire sequence.
The Koran cannot even COPY the Holy Bible without messing up!
I’m sure that YOU will come to appreciate the Koran for what it is…just as I have.
Thanks…
-
H2O
- Preacher
- Posts: 782
- Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 09:00 pm
- Location: Boca Raton, Florida
"istawaa ilaa assamaa'i" means " the sky was erected up or mounted up up" assamaa'i is in the possesive case which is the object of the verb istawaa, Not Allah(He) "turned or aimed or mounted up to the sky" .
Please tell use where is " HE" coming from, where is the pronoun in arabic ?
I used "He" to express the one who is causing the erecting of the sky, you show "He" is the doer of the action, so therefor where is "HE" in the arabic ?
If we take "He" out of my translation it still denotes who it is that is causing the erection of the sky in the context
Now please tell us in your translation where is the pronoun "He" refering to Allah that is the doer of the action ? Would you mind to explain this to the audience ?
Seems you been busy picking and choosing words that you only want to show.
Istawaa also means to erect or to stand upright
Al-Mawrid
Arabic Dictionary
page 104
The root word "sawaa" also carried the same meaning with the meanings you gave
Al-Mawrid
Arabic Dictionary
page 650
The function of "ilaa" following after "istawaa" is clearifying whom the action is being done to which is "assamaa'i" that is the object of the verb "istawaa".
Where is your grammar ?
Do you read 2+4= or do you read 2+[]=4 ?
OIC, thats why you used your distorted translation that has no grammar applied to it to come up with 2+4 in that sentence.
"فِي أَرْبَعَةِ أَيَّامٍ سَوَاء" ~ fee arba'ati ayyaamin sawaa'a ~ into four days equally , is not saying 2 and then another 4 days etc. The verse indicated the earth was created in two days then after placing mountains, blessing and ordainment into it, it equaled out to 4 days.
فَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّنِ افْتَرَى عَلَى اللّهِ كَذِبًا أَوْ كَذَّبَ بِآيَاتِهِ أُوْلَئِكَ يَنَالُهُمْ نَصِيبُهُم مِّنَ الْكِتَابِ حَتَّى إِذَا جَاءتْهُمْ رُسُلُنَا يَتَوَفَّوْنَهُمْ قَالُواْ أَيْنَ مَا كُنتُمْ تَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللّهِ قَالُواْ ضَلُّواْ عَنَّا وَشَهِدُواْ عَلَى أَنفُسِهِمْ أَنَّهُمْ كَانُواْ كَافِرِينَ
Translate that .
Please tell use where is " HE" coming from, where is the pronoun in arabic ?
I used "He" to express the one who is causing the erecting of the sky, you show "He" is the doer of the action, so therefor where is "HE" in the arabic ?
If we take "He" out of my translation it still denotes who it is that is causing the erection of the sky in the context
Say (Muhammad) ! Do you then disbelieve in Him who created the “ardh” in two days and you make rivals for Him ? That is the Lord of the worlds. He placed on it (the ardh) anchored mountains on top of it and he blessed into it and he ordained into it its nourishment into four days equally for the inquirers. And then the sky was erected up while it was smoke/gas/fumes (dukhaan), then He said to it (dukhaan) and to the ardh (?): Come together willingly or unwillingly ! They both said “ We come together willingly ! “
Now please tell us in your translation where is the pronoun "He" refering to Allah that is the doer of the action ? Would you mind to explain this to the audience ?
“istawa” definition:
To establish, become firm or settled, turn to a thing, to direct one’s direction to a thing, mount. It comes from the root “sawiya”, which means to be worth, equivalent to.
Seems you been busy picking and choosing words that you only want to show.
Istawaa also means to erect or to stand upright
Al-Mawrid
Arabic Dictionary
page 104
The root word "sawaa" also carried the same meaning with the meanings you gave
Al-Mawrid
Arabic Dictionary
page 650
The function of "ilaa" following after "istawaa" is clearifying whom the action is being done to which is "assamaa'i" that is the object of the verb "istawaa".
Where is your grammar ?
Say (Muhammad) ! Do you then disbelieve in Him who created the “ardh” in two days and you make rivals for Him ? That is the Lord of the worlds. He placed on it (the ardh) anchored mountains on top of it and he blessed into it and he ordained into it its nourishment into four days equally for the inquirers.
Do you read 2+4= or do you read 2+[]=4 ?
OIC, thats why you used your distorted translation that has no grammar applied to it to come up with 2+4 in that sentence.
"فِي أَرْبَعَةِ أَيَّامٍ سَوَاء" ~ fee arba'ati ayyaamin sawaa'a ~ into four days equally , is not saying 2 and then another 4 days etc. The verse indicated the earth was created in two days then after placing mountains, blessing and ordainment into it, it equaled out to 4 days.
فَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّنِ افْتَرَى عَلَى اللّهِ كَذِبًا أَوْ كَذَّبَ بِآيَاتِهِ أُوْلَئِكَ يَنَالُهُمْ نَصِيبُهُم مِّنَ الْكِتَابِ حَتَّى إِذَا جَاءتْهُمْ رُسُلُنَا يَتَوَفَّوْنَهُمْ قَالُواْ أَيْنَ مَا كُنتُمْ تَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللّهِ قَالُواْ ضَلُّواْ عَنَّا وَشَهِدُواْ عَلَى أَنفُسِهِمْ أَنَّهُمْ كَانُواْ كَافِرِينَ
Translate that .
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-
Apple Pie
- Preacher
- Posts: 502
- Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:42 pm
- Location: Houston
Greetings H2O,
Thanks for your reply.
Let’s take a gander at it…
"
With all due respect, I clearly showed you the entire classical lexical reference for ““istawa”, with all of its variants…none of which were even close to the ones which you had “googled” from your Modern Arabic webpaste…
Thus, you are free to see the Lexical support for the translation which I use…
Secondly, it appears that you are already in agreement with my definition of “ila”…
Furthermore, Al-Mawrid is a Modern Arabic dictionary. Please tell me why you would want to exegete the Koran (written ~1200 years ago) with a Modern Arabic dictionary?
When is that Masters degree ever going to kick-in?
Additionally, you have run away from the main thrust of my argument….show me how your “erecting” of the skies can possibly occur after accretion…?
But…your eyesight will probably begin to falter as you are reading this, and then there will be little use in responding to me….am I correct?
Sure I am….I’ve seen you do it time after time….we all have…
With all due respect, you sound angry….
Why do you repeatedly flat-out ignore 90% of my posts and then pigeon-hole yourself into disputing over “minor” points of which you think that you might possibly be “qualified” to answer…?
If you want to debate me then please have the common courtesy to do it in a systematic, sequential, point by point, and professional manner.
You just can’t seem to do this and it is indicative of juvenile behavior…or, someone very insecure in their understanding of the text under discussion…
Let’s face it…you don’t know your science…nor do you know your classic Arabic…
I hate to say it, but your "degree" is a rip-roaring, falling-down, banging the floorboards, laughing out loud, joke...
You have to running on pure adrenaline at this point…
Thanks…
Thanks for your reply.
Let’s take a gander at it…
"
istawaa ilaa assamaa'i" means " the sky was erected up or mounted up up" assamaa'i is in the possesive case which is the object of the verb istawaa, Not Allah(He) "turned or aimed or mounted up to the sky" .
Please tell use where is " HE" coming from, where is the pronoun in arabic ?
I used "He" to express the one who is causing the erecting of the sky, you show "He" is the doer of the action, so therefor where is "HE" in the arabic ?
If we take "He" out of my translation it still denotes who it is that is causing the erection of the sky in the context
Quote:
Say (Muhammad) ! Do you then disbelieve in Him who created the “ardh” in two days and you make rivals for Him ? That is the Lord of the worlds. He placed on it (the ardh) anchored mountains on top of it and he blessed into it and he ordained into it its nourishment into four days equally for the inquirers. And then the sky was erected up while it was smoke/gas/fumes (dukhaan), then He said to it (dukhaan) and to the ardh (?): Come together willingly or unwillingly ! They both said “ We come together willingly ! “
Now please tell us in your translation where is the pronoun "He" refering to Allah that is the doer of the action ? Would you mind to explain this to the audience ?
Quote:
“istawa” definition:
To establish, become firm or settled, turn to a thing, to direct one’s direction to a thing, mount. It comes from the root “sawiya”, which means to be worth, equivalent to.
Seems you been busy picking and choosing words that you only want to show.
Istawaa also means to erect or to stand upright
Al-Mawrid
Arabic Dictionary
page 104
The root word "sawaa" also carried the same meaning with the meanings you gave
Al-Mawrid
Arabic Dictionary
page 650
The function of "ilaa" following after "istawaa" is clearifying whom the action is being done to which is "assamaa'i" that is the object of the verb "istawaa".
Where is your grammar ?
With all due respect, I clearly showed you the entire classical lexical reference for ““istawa”, with all of its variants…none of which were even close to the ones which you had “googled” from your Modern Arabic webpaste…
Thus, you are free to see the Lexical support for the translation which I use…
Secondly, it appears that you are already in agreement with my definition of “ila”…
Furthermore, Al-Mawrid is a Modern Arabic dictionary. Please tell me why you would want to exegete the Koran (written ~1200 years ago) with a Modern Arabic dictionary?
When is that Masters degree ever going to kick-in?
Additionally, you have run away from the main thrust of my argument….show me how your “erecting” of the skies can possibly occur after accretion…?
But…your eyesight will probably begin to falter as you are reading this, and then there will be little use in responding to me….am I correct?
Sure I am….I’ve seen you do it time after time….we all have…
Quote:
Say (Muhammad) ! Do you then disbelieve in Him who created the “ardh” in two days and you make rivals for Him ? That is the Lord of the worlds. He placed on it (the ardh) anchored mountains on top of it and he blessed into it and he ordained into it its nourishment into four days equally for the inquirers.
Do you read 2+4= or do you read 2+[]=4 ?
OIC, thats why you used your distorted translation that has no grammar applied to it to come up with 2+4 in that sentence.
"فِي أَرْبَعَةِ أَيَّامٍ سَوَاء" ~ fee arba'ati ayyaamin sawaa'a ~ into four days equally , is not saying 2 and then another 4 days etc. The verse indicated the earth was created in two days then after placing mountains, blessing and ordainment into it, it equaled out to 4 days.
فَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّنِ افْتَرَى عَلَى اللّهِ كَذِبًا أَوْ كَذَّبَ بِآيَاتِهِ أُوْلَئِكَ يَنَالُهُمْ نَصِيبُهُم مِّنَ الْكِتَابِ حَتَّى إِذَا جَاءتْهُمْ رُسُلُنَا يَتَوَفَّوْنَهُمْ قَالُواْ أَيْنَ مَا كُنتُمْ تَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللّهِ قَالُواْ ضَلُّواْ عَنَّا وَشَهِدُواْ عَلَى أَنفُسِهِمْ أَنَّهُمْ كَانُواْ كَافِرِينَ
Translate that .
With all due respect, you sound angry….
Why do you repeatedly flat-out ignore 90% of my posts and then pigeon-hole yourself into disputing over “minor” points of which you think that you might possibly be “qualified” to answer…?
If you want to debate me then please have the common courtesy to do it in a systematic, sequential, point by point, and professional manner.
You just can’t seem to do this and it is indicative of juvenile behavior…or, someone very insecure in their understanding of the text under discussion…
Let’s face it…you don’t know your science…nor do you know your classic Arabic…
I hate to say it, but your "degree" is a rip-roaring, falling-down, banging the floorboards, laughing out loud, joke...
You have to running on pure adrenaline at this point…
Thanks…
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Liberate
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Additionally, you have run away from the main thrust of my argument….show me how your “erecting” of the skies can possibly occur after accretion…?
It's pretty easy, if you are Mohammed/allah/epileptic alter ego/ you can say whatever you want and leave it up to your followers to justify your stupidity.
Sahih Muslim Book 039, Number 6707:
Abu Haraira reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) took hold of my hands and said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and lie caused the animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (peace be upon him) after 'Asr on Friday;the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, i. e. between afternoon and night.
hmmm soil/clay before mountains and trees hmmmm
hmmm Adam after the afternoon prayer? (who was involved in this prayer?) hmmmm
Sometimes I don't know wether to laugh or cry to think 1.6 billion folks are buying this stupidity.
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H2O
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Liberate,
Whats the name of the topic of this forum. Again you have a tendacy in venturing off to something that has no relevance to the topic
Apple Pie,
I will get your Dictionary and more. What I am going to do is scan those root entries as you like coming from various Dictionaries of the Quran and save them as an http image for this forum. I want to show clear proof on what you are doing, and post up what you have left out and what you could see. Give me some time I will be back with what we need.
Whats the name of the topic of this forum. Again you have a tendacy in venturing off to something that has no relevance to the topic
Apple Pie,
33. SAWAAA – UN ( Equal ) 2:6 سَوَآءٌ ( س و ى )
Extracts of some verses of the Quran in which derivatives of the same root alphabets are used are given below to show the similarity in the meanings they convey: “The rich do not give away their provision to their slaves so that they may become equal (Sawaaa-’un) to them” 16:71. “Is the blind man equal (yastawi) to one who sees?” 13:16. “He saw him in the middle of hell”. 37:55. “Infidels will wish that they were leveled (tusawwa) with the ground” 4:42. ‘Saawaa’ is used for leveling the space between two mountains”. 18:96. ‘Astawa’ is used for balancing on the ship 23:28 and ‘tastawuu’ is used for balancing on cattle back while riding 43:12-13. ‘Sawwiya’ is used for putting fingers in order 75:4.
These derivatives convey the meaning of: equal, middle, level, balance, order etc. Something in the middle is equidistant from the borders, something leveled is equal in height, something in balance or in order is in equilibrium. Thus all these derivatives convey somewhat similar meanings. In view of this the derivative ‘Astawaa’ used in various verses of the Quran referring to the skies and the earth would mean setting up the balance or order or equilibrium 2:29, 7:54, 79:28 after the chaos of the ‘Big Bang’ which marks the birth of the present universe.
http://www.quran-st.net/EXPLANATORY%20D ... Y-1.htm#33
I will get your Dictionary and more. What I am going to do is scan those root entries as you like coming from various Dictionaries of the Quran and save them as an http image for this forum. I want to show clear proof on what you are doing, and post up what you have left out and what you could see. Give me some time I will be back with what we need.
Download Quran and Hadeeth for Free here http://www.islamasoft.co.uk/downloads.html Learn about Islam from a Non dictatorial view
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Apple Pie
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Greetings H2O,
Thanks for your comment…
Most excellent…!
Let me know when you are ready…
Take care…
Thanks for your comment…
I will get your Dictionary and more. What I am going to do is scan those root entries as you like coming from various Dictionaries of the Quran and save them as an http image for this forum. I want to show clear proof on what you are doing, and post up what you have left out and what you could see. Give me some time I will be back with what we need.
Most excellent…!
Let me know when you are ready…
Take care…
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H2O
- Preacher
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- Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 09:00 pm
- Location: Boca Raton, Florida
Ok Apple Pie,
I have a question for you before we begin this LOOOOOONG discussion.
What is you belief about the name Allah ? Do you believe it is a contraction of the two arabic words "al-ilah" ? And do you believe that the name Allah was never used by Arabic speaking Jews and Christian before Muhammads time but was used for an Idol ?
Please excuse me for going WAY off the topic, but this is for me to know how to address out discussion. It is important. depned on how you answer I may come back with another question ? So again please excuse these irrelivant questions.
I have a question for you before we begin this LOOOOOONG discussion.
What is you belief about the name Allah ? Do you believe it is a contraction of the two arabic words "al-ilah" ? And do you believe that the name Allah was never used by Arabic speaking Jews and Christian before Muhammads time but was used for an Idol ?
Please excuse me for going WAY off the topic, but this is for me to know how to address out discussion. It is important. depned on how you answer I may come back with another question ? So again please excuse these irrelivant questions.
Download Quran and Hadeeth for Free here http://www.islamasoft.co.uk/downloads.html Learn about Islam from a Non dictatorial view
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Apple Pie
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Greetings H2O,
Thanks for the Red Herring…
I will grant your request just as soon as you are willing to exegete Sura 86 with me…
The ball is in your court…
Thanks for the Red Herring…
Ok Apple Pie,
I have a question for you before we begin this LOOOOOONG discussion.
What is you belief about the name Allah ? Do you believe it is a contraction of the two arabic words "al-ilah" ? And do you believe that the name Allah was never used by Arabic speaking Jews and Christian before Muhammads time but was used for an Idol ?
Please excuse me for going WAY off the topic, but this is for me to know how to address out discussion. It is important. depned on how you answer I may come back with another question ? So again please excuse these irrelivant questions.
I will grant your request just as soon as you are willing to exegete Sura 86 with me…
The ball is in your court…
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H2O
- Preacher
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- Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 09:00 pm
- Location: Boca Raton, Florida
Nope sorry, so then I guess you wont answer the Question but anyhow thank you. 
Download Quran and Hadeeth for Free here http://www.islamasoft.co.uk/downloads.html Learn about Islam from a Non dictatorial view
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Apple Pie
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H2O
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Apple Pie wrote:Now…got those Classical Lexicons handy for your rebuttal…or….should I call your Alma Mater and ask for a refund for you….?
Actually no, it will suit us fine, I dont think you saw my message I left for you from on another Forum
H2O wrote:O by the way Apple Pie dont think I forgot about our discussion on the other forum about Istawaa, but I want you to go find out who Abdul Omar Mannan ( The Author of the Dictionary of the Quran you are using) is the son of. He is the son of Maulana Noor Ud Din.....lol. If you only knew what you have in your hand you would probably burn that dictionary. Put it this way does name Ahmadiyyah of Lahore ring a bell . Go research who the Ahmadiyyah movement is and who Maulana Noor Ud Din is, your going to be. But anyhow I am still going to persue our discussion on the other forum, but I am giving you a hint of what I am going to come at you with in criticism of that Dictionary you have
I am waiting for teh BIGGER package to get here though, then we will bit by bit tear that dictionary and the auther to shreds as a trusted source. But first I dont wanna talk about it I wanna show it. Oh by the way I smell blackness in the air
Who refered you to that Dictionary the NOI ?Download Quran and Hadeeth for Free here http://www.islamasoft.co.uk/downloads.html Learn about Islam from a Non dictatorial view
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Apple Pie
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Greetings H2O,
Thanks for your comments…
Now….this is special.
Since you cannot “google” any dirty laundry on the author of the Lexicon that I have been utilizing, you now you feel compelled to go after his family members?!
I think that you have reached a new low…even for a Muslim…
Please let me know when your classical Arabic Lexicons AND your science books arrive by mail-order. I imagine that you ordered the ones that your Alma Mater failed to give you while in school….am I correct?
I have you pinned to the mat….and you know it….
Take care…
Thanks for your comments…
Apple Pie wrote:
Now…got those Classical Lexicons handy for your rebuttal…or….should I call your Alma Mater and ask for a refund for you….?
Actually no, it will suit us fine, I dont think you saw my message I left for you from on another Forum
H2O wrote:
O by the way Apple Pie dont think I forgot about our discussion on the other forum about Istawaa, but I want you to go find out who Abdul Omar Mannan ( The Author of the Dictionary of the Quran you are using) is the son of. He is the son of Maulana Noor Ud Din.....lol. If you only knew what you have in your hand you would probably burn that dictionary. Put it this way does name Ahmadiyyah of Lahore ring a bell . Go research who the Ahmadiyyah movement is and who Maulana Noor Ud Din is, your going to be . But anyhow I am still going to persue our discussion on the other forum, but I am giving you a hint of what I am going to come at you with in criticism of that Dictionary you have
I am waiting for teh BIGGER package to get here though, then we will bit by bit tear that dictionary and the auther to shreds as a trusted source. But first I dont wanna talk about it I wanna show it. Oh by the way I smell blackness in the air Who refered you to that Dictionary the NOI ?
Now….this is special.
Since you cannot “google” any dirty laundry on the author of the Lexicon that I have been utilizing, you now you feel compelled to go after his family members?!
I think that you have reached a new low…even for a Muslim…
Please let me know when your classical Arabic Lexicons AND your science books arrive by mail-order. I imagine that you ordered the ones that your Alma Mater failed to give you while in school….am I correct?
I have you pinned to the mat….and you know it….
Take care…
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