Is Jesus God

[Almonte]

Peace to all

In the name of God, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful




There is not a verse in the Holy bible that attributes to jesus the cliam that he is God or the begotten Son
of God or to worship him
Mt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his
angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot
against a stone.
Mt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Mt 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the
world, and the glory of them;
Mt 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy
God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Mt 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

in the above text, jesus confirms what god said concerning him, which sattan quoted.
if Jesus himself,is god meant by what god said,then how can he be god or the son of god.
how can sattan say to jesus: and he sall give his angles charge concerning you?
does god need to be taken care of and protected by the angles.
A poweless god
Jesus said to sattan: is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Jesus did not wnt to tempt his lord, to see if god could heil him.
If jesus was God then, who is he going to tempt? is he tempting his father to know if he is going to protect
him from stones? is he tempting himself to see if he can protect himself.
after sattan showed jesus all kingdoms of the world he ask jesus to bow down to him, sattan said:
All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. jesus replied by saying:
Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou

serve. This text is false chrisitian belief, in jesus being a god
1 sattan showed,and offered ,jesus the kingdoms of the world.
if jesus was God or son of god, he will say to sattan: I own them all, I created them
they are mine and under my control. sattan will not dared to say to God, I will Give you all this
if you fall down for me

Sattan ordered God to bow down for him! Do not christians feel sahme when they read this

Lu 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying,
the heaven was opened,
Lu 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven,
which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.



Luke mentioned that jesus was baptized. God does not get baptized,that is to be prepared to serve God and
worship him. How can God be baptized? to worship himself? to worship the father?
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass

from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be

called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called

great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and

Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


If Jesus was God or the son of God , he would said to them: I command you only that I be glorified,praised and worsipped

If jesus was God ,he would not have said that he came to fulfill the laws. what would he fulfill
he cam as a messenger,among other messegers.he did not come as God as the unjust,misguided and disbelievers
who are led astray from jesus teachings and religion,cliamThere is not a verse in The old testement that say that God or son of God will come or be sent.


Mt 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the
Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.



Jesus makes a comparison between two humans jesus and john.
jesus is yonger than john,but greater.this comparison would not have been feasible if Jesus was God,
and john being a human prophet. There are no comparisons between God and humans.
If jesus was alive brfore creation started as the christians claim,Jesus would not cal himself the leastlJohn wrote that when jesus felt that his life on earth was nearing end ,he started praying to God
to protect his disciples he said
Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have
known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Truly the worst kind of minds are those that read but do not comprehend.

the powerless god

In John 14:28, Jesus was saying: “The Father is greater than I.” By stating that the “Father” is greater than
himself

John 5:30, as saying: “I can of mine own self do nothing.

Mt 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Lu 11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils,


Matthew 19:17, Jesus responded to one who addressed him as “O good master”, saying: “Why callest thou me good?

There is none good but one, that is God.” If he rejected being called “good”, and stated that only God is

truly good, he clearly implies that he is not God.


Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Ac 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and

wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: What god is not

Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Job 25:5

Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.
Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?


God was circumcising

Lu 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.


Gog is humiliated crying on the cross


Mt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is

to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mr 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is,

being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


the God that sleep

Mt 8:24 And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the

waves: but he was asleep

Lu 8:23 But as they sailed he fell asleep: and there came down a storm of wind on the lake; and they were

filled with water, and were in jeopardy.

Mr 4:38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him,

Master, carest thou not that we perish?


weeping God

Joh 11:35 Jesus wept.



poor mary when she heard this news,she got so happy
Lu 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
for ever


Christians cliam that jesus is the only son of God in the Bilble



Ex ‎‎4:22‎ And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is ‎my son, even my firstborn:‎
Jer ‎‎31:9‎ They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead ‎them: I will cause them to

walk by the rivers of waters in a straight ‎way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel,

and ‎Ephraim is my firstborn.‎
Lu ‎‎3:38‎ Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was ‎the son of Adam, which was the son of

God.‎
Ge ‎‎6:2‎ That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; ‎and they took them wives of all

which they chose.‎
Ge ‎‎6:3‎ And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for ‎that he also is flesh: yet his days

shall be an hundred and twenty ‎years.‎
Ge ‎‎6:4‎ There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, ‎when the sons of God came in unto

the daughters of men, and they ‎bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of ‎old, men of

renown.‎


The occupation God

Mr 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon?

and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
‎
Mt 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses,

and Simon, and Judas?

God is the one


1) "Know therefore this day, and consider [it] in thine heart, that the LORD he [is] God in heaven above, and

upon the earth beneath: [there is] none else." Deuteronomy 4:39.

2) "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Exodus 20:3

3) "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:" Exodus

34:14

4) "Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me,

and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, [even]

I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no savior." Isaiah 43:10-11.

5) "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am]

the last; and beside me [there is] no God." Isaiah 44:6

6) "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am]

the LORD, and [there is] none else." Isaiah 45:6

7) "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath

established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none

else." Isaiah 45:18.

8"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else." Isaiah

45:22

9) Matthew 4:10 - Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you Satan! It is written: "You shall worship the Lord

your God, and Him only you shall serve".
10) Mark 12:29 - Jesus answered him. "The first of all the commandments is: Hear O Israel! The Lord our God,

the Lord is One".
11) Isiah 43:10-11 "Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord;

and beside Me there is no saviour."
11) John 17:3 - "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom

You have sent".

only Muslims pray like Jesus: fell on his face

Matthew 26:39 "He (Jesus) went a little farther and fell on his face, and prayed, O my Father, if it is

possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will , but as you will".



News


Today, there are many modern scholars in Christianity who hold that Jesus Christ was not God. In 1977, a group

of seven biblical scholars, including leading Anglican theologians and other New Testament scholars, published

a book called The Myth of God Incarnate, which caused a great uproar in the General Synod of the Church of

England. In the preface, the editor, John Hick, wrote the following: “The writers of this book are convinced

that another major theological development is called for in this last part of the twentieth century. The need

arises from growing knowledge of Christian origins, and involves a recognition that Jesus was (as he is

presented in Acts 2.21) ‘a man approved by God’ for a special role within the divine purpose, and that the

later conception of him as God incarnate, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity living a human life, is a

mythological or poetic way of expressing his significance for us.”
There is a broad agreement among New Testament scholars that the historical Jesus did not make the claim to

deity that later Christian thought was to make for him; he did not understand himself to be God, or God the

Son, incarnate [in the flesh]. The late Archbishop Michael Ramsey, who was himself a New Testament scholar,

wrote that “Jesus did not claim deity for himself.” His contemporary, the New Testament scholar C.F.D. Moule,

said that, “Any case for a ‘high’ Christology that depended on the authenticity of the alleged claims of Jesus

about himself, especially in the Fourth Gospel, would indeed be precarious.”
In a major study of the origins of the doctrine of the incarnation, James Dunn, who affirms orthodox

Christology, concludes that “there was no real evidence in the earliest Jesus tradition of what could fairly

be called a consciousness of divinity.” Again, Brian Hebblethwaite, a staunch upholder of the traditional

Nicene-Calcedonian Christology, acknowledges that “it is no longer possible to defend the divinity of Jesus by

reference to the claims of Jesus.” Hebblethwaite and Dunn, and other scholars like them who still believe in

Jesus’ divinity, argue instead that Jesus did not know he was God incarnate. This only became known after his

resurrection.
Most famous among the Church of England bishops, who doubt Jesus’ divinity, is the outspoken Reverend

Professor David Jenkins, the Bishop of Durham in England, who openly states that Jesus was not God.
The following article, which appeared in The Daily News some years ago, clearly indicates the degree to which

there are doubts among the clergy regarding Jesus’ divinity.

Shock survey
Of Anglican bishops

LONDON: More than half of England’s Anglican bishops say Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus

Christ was God, according to a survey published today.
The poll of 31 of England’s 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ’s miracles, the virgin birth

and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible.
Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was

sufficient to regard Jesus as “God’s supreme agent”. One declined to give a definite opinion.
The poll was carried out by London Weekend Television’s weekly religion show, Credo.

“DAILY NEWS” 25/6/84

I challenge all Christians to pass this test in the Holy bible,at least one


Mr 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall

speak with new tongues;
Mr 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall
lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the
slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness,
and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life;
but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually
I think that Christians should worship Melchisedec without a father and mother Jesus have a mother, neither

beginning or end, Jesus had beginning and a end





The holy Quran
2:79

Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with

it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.



Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that

we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than

Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).



5:14

From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

5:15

O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book, -

5:16

Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the light,- guideth them to a path that is straight.

5:17

In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."

5:18

(Both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of Allah, and his beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)"

5:19

O People of the Book! Now hath come unto you, making (things) clear unto you, Our Messenger, after the break in (the series of) our messengers, lest ye should say: "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner (from evil)": But now hath come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner (from evil). And Allah hath power over all things.

5:20

[Believer]

Peace Almonte,

I deleted your last post because it was too long and repetitive.
All those people gave the same "I didn't believe " or "It didn't make sense" about Christianity.
Ths discussion wil be restricted to "Is Jesus God?"

There is not a verse in the Holy bible that attributes to jesus the cliam that he is God or the begotten Son
of God or to worship him

Obviously you have not read the Bible, and this has been addressed on another thread also.

In regared to the tempation of Jesus, Jesus gave answers for our benefit.
Satan was tempting Jesus as a man, but Jesus successfully resisted Satan.

if jesus was God or son of god, he will say to sattan: I own them all, I created them
they are mine and under my control. sattan will not dared to say to God, I will Give you all this
if you fall down for me

If Jesus was God or the son of God , he would said to them: I command you only that I be glorified,praised and worsipped

No, and that too is why Jesus never said "I am God, worship me"
That seriously contradicts the meek and humble nature of Jesus Christ.
Jesus came to serve us, not to be served.
Jesus says those who are last will be first.

Matthew 20:28
just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Luke mentioned that jesus was baptized. God does not get baptized,that is to be prepared to serve God and
worship him. How can God be baptized? to worship himself? to worship the father?

Baptism for Jesus was different.
He was preparing to serve the Father and be subervient as a man.
It initialized His ministry as the Father spoke from Heaven and the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus. The Trinity is shown in a powerful scene.

If jesus was God ,he would not have said that he came to fulfill the laws. what would he fulfill
he cam as a messenger,among other messegers.he did not come as God as the unjust,misguided and disbelievers
who are led astray from jesus teachings and religion,cliamThere is not a verse in The old testement that say that God or son of God will come or be sent.

Phillipians 2:5-11
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death--
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Christians cliam that jesus is the only son of God in the Bilble

Jesus is THE "Son of God"
What is this "Son of God'?
He is the divine King that is one with God that shall rule the heavens and earth forever, and He came as a man from the house of David.
As scripture reveals that He is Jesus Christ.

5) "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God." Isaiah 44:6


What Islam teaches you about Jesus is fallacious.
Jesus was FAR from being another human being!!!
Even Islam teaches He had a virgin birth amd that He is coming back at Judgement. Why isn't Muhammed this special???
Jesus was very special and it is wrong to say He's another human.


Oberve these prophecies:

Psalm 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."


Psalm 80:17
Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand,
the son of man you have raised up for yourself.


Psalm 2:6-12
6 "I have installed my King [1]
on Zion, my holy hill."
7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD :
He said to me, "You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.
8 Ask of me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will rule them with an iron scepter;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery."

10 Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry
and you be destroyed in your way,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.


Daniel 7:13-15
13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Jeremiah 23:5-6
5 "The days are coming," declares the LORD ,
"when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The LORD Our Righteousness.

All this talk of the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the LORD.
He is called "Lord" by King David.
He is the Son of God who is the King.
He will have an everlasting kingdom and the nations and people will worship Him!
All of this was revealed before Jesus came to earth.!!!


Matthew 26:64
Jesus answered him, `Yes, I am. Also I tell you that after this you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the One who has all power. You will see him coming on the clouds in the sky!'

What have I proved to you?
That Jesus is Lord as revealed clearly and evident in ancient scriptures!
I believe what is clear and evident, what about you?


John 3:31-36
31"The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. 35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

Jesus is not from this world nor is He a member of mankind like us.
Since He was born of a virgin, He was not created by two sex cells.
Thus Jesus is not related to anyone on earth.
Jesus was always existence, His soul was always eternal and will be forever.
He is from Heaven and spoke heavenly Word of God.
His ways were not earthly like your prophet.

Just keep denying what is clear and evident in scripture!
Jesus IS the Son of Man and is seated at the Almighty's right hand united with Him.
Only a misguided one could call this great Holy One just another human messenger!
Islam teaches you the lies about Jesus, not vice versa.

[Almonte]

peace believe

What have I proved to you?
That Jesus is Lord as revealed clearly and evident in ancient scriptures!
I believe what is clear and evident, what about you?

You proved nothing,Where in the holy bible Jesus said i am God or worship me

What Lord are you christians talking about.
Jesus never claim that he is God or the begotten son of God. Not one verse in the bible jesus claim to be God

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[size=18]
The HolyQuran
109:1

Say : O ye that reject Faith!

109:2

I worship not that which ye worship,

109:3

Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

109:4

And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,

109:5

Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

109:6

To you be your Way, and to me mine.

103:1

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),

103:2

Verily Man is in loss,

103:3

Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy. [/size]

[Almonte]

peace believe

What have I proved to you?
That Jesus is Lord as revealed clearly and evident in ancient scriptures!
I believe what is clear and evident, what about you?

You proved nothing,Where in the holy bible Jesus said i am God or worship me

What Lord are you christians talking about.
Jesus never claim that he is God or the begotten son of God. Not one verse in the bible jesus claim to be God

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[size=18]
The HolyQuran
109:1

Say : O ye that reject Faith!

109:2

I worship not that which ye worship,

109:3

Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

109:4

And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,

109:5

Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

109:6

To you be your Way, and to me mine.

103:1

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),

103:2

Verily Man is in loss,

103:3

Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy. [/size]

[webmaster]

Isaiah 42
8. I am Yahweh: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images(Allah).

Isa is not Yahshua.
Allah is not Yahweh.

Yah shua = Yah weh.

The Son inherited a more excellent name - Hebrews 1:4.

From where did the Son inherit His name? From the Father, of course. Consequently, He could only inherit from the Father what the Father Himself possessed. Did the Father possess the name Jesus or Yahshua? The answer seems quite apparent especially when one keeps in mind that the Father is addressed by the abbreviated name Yah forty-nine times in the Old Testament (Psalm 68:4; etc.), which can only be found in the Hebrew name Yahshua.

Yahshua in Strong's Concordance is #3091
which is defined as coming from
#3068 - Yahweh,
and from
#3467 - yasha, which means "to save"

Together Yahweh and yasha, or Yahshua, means Yahweh saves.

The Muslim Isa(Jesus) has nothing to do with the Christian Yahshua(Jesus).

The Muslim (Jesus) that Muslims waiting on to return will be the AntiChrist!

1 John 2:22 He is Antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

The Jews deny the Son but not the Father.

The Muslims deny both the Son and the Father!

[Believer]

Peace Almonte,

You proved nothing,Where in the holy bible Jesus said i am God or worship me

What Lord are you christians talking about.
Jesus never claim that he is God or the begotten son of God. Not one verse in the bible jesus claim to be God

Yeah, you got this off one of Ahmed Deedat's writings, I've read that before.
What you say is just not true, I know what Jesus said in my scriptures.


Matthew 26:63-65
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."
64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
65Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.


Matthew 16:13-17
13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

People did worship Jesus too.

Matthew 2:11
They went into the house, and there they saw the child and Mary his mother. They kneeled down and worshipped him. Then they opened their bags and gave him gifts. These gifts were gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Matthew 8:2
A man who had leprosy [a bad skin disease] came and kneeled in front of Jesus and worshipped him. He said to Jesus, `Sir, I know you can heal me if you want to.'

Matthew 15:24
But the woman came and bowed down in front of Jesus and worshipped him. She said, `Sir, help me.

Luke 24:49
They bowed down and worshipped him. They were very happy and went back to Jerusalem.

John 9:38
The man said, `Sir, I do believe.' He kneeled down in front of Jesus and worshipped him

[Almonte]

peace unbeliever

Matthew 26:63-65
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."

You don't understand english


Everybody is the son of God. According to the bible
I said Jesus never claim that he is God or the begotten son of God

begotten is generated ,naturally begotten child" Activities associated with sexual intercoursebegotten
Sons of god in the bible

Ex 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Jer 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
Lu 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Ge 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Ge 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Ge 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

God have many sons in the bible.

Matthew 8:2
A man who had leprosy [a bad skin disease] came and kneeled in front of Jesus and worshipped him. He said to Jesus, `Sir, I know you can heal me if you want to.

'
Did jesus said worship me? No
you still don't understand

They are three type of worship

i worship my mother and father,does not mean the same way with God

when we muslims worship God we fellon to the ground with our faces

Worshipping God

Ge 17:3 And Abram fell on his face and God talked with him

num 20:6 And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto them.

jos 5:4 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?

Matthew 26:39 "He (Jesus) went a little farther and fell on his face, and prayed, O my Father, if it ispossible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will , but as you will".



The holy Quran
2:79

Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with

it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.



Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that

we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than

Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).

[webmaster]

I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if your screen name here is Almonte and that you are a Muslim.

There are only 2 answers to the question Almonte

1) Yes
or
2) No

Almonte writes back, You said it: nevertheless I(Almonte) say unto you here at the forum, Hereafter shall ye see me(Almonte) sitting on this computer typing everyday proclaiming Islam.

So we replied back you
Almonte hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
We asked the members here "What think ye?" They answered and said, He is guilty of being banned from the forum.

Almonte has admitted that Yes he is Almonte a Muslim!

63. But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65. Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
66. What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

[littleshepard]

peace believe

What have I proved to you?
That Jesus is Lord as revealed clearly and evident in ancient scriptures!
I believe what is clear and evident, what about you?

You proved nothing,Where in the holy bible Jesus said i am God or worship me

So you mean if I come to you and tell you that I'm god, will you worship me?

[Believer]

Peace Almonte,

Since God did create us, we are his sons and daughters, but Jesus is THE Son of God.
He was not created, but was always one with God.
That's why He was born of a virgin, because He already existed and He wasn't created by sex like all of us.

Did jesus said worship me? No
you still don't understand

Jeus never stopped them from worshipping Him, and Jesus was very proud that Peter called Him "the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Unederstand that Jesus was meek and humble and He didn't come here in power, amnd He wasn't going to be arrogant and say "I am God, worship me"

Phillipians 2:5-11
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death--
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

[Almonte]

Peace all

In the name of God, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful
Sura 17
17:81
And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."




Christians made God, the MI-Mighty, the Arrogant, the Most-High, the Praised, the Perfect; in a position of disgrace, humility, weakness and limited means. This is totally illogical. God, the Creator of heavens and earth, the All-Knowing, must be free of any weakness or imperfection. If He was imperfect, then he would not deserve to be worshipped and bowed down to, nor would He deserve to be feared, followed, praised or glorified.
Christians portrayed their God in a disgraceful way, weak, poor, begging people for mercy and leniency, crying for what befell him and seeking people’s sympathy. This God, weak as Christians portrayed Him, deserves sympathy and is not to be feared or sought.
Jesus, was weak and humiliated, yet is worshipped by Christians. Christians believe that before Mary gave birth to Jesus, she was engaged to Joseph the carpenter. He wanted to leave her, but saw a dream that ordered him to the contrary. He was told, in this dream, to take Mary to Bethlehem to give birth to Jesus so he can be registered, as was the Roman law then. Mary and Joseph had to rest, on the way to Bethlehem, and could not afford but a barn. When Mary gave birth to Jesus, she rapped him with a cloth used to keep cows’ food. Joseph later took them back to Nazareth and then fled to Egypt, fearing from king Hirodous who wanted to kill Jesus. They stayed in M-Materiah in Egypt. When Jesus was thirty years old, they all went back to Nazareth. Jesus was then baptized by John the Baptist. Then, Jesus fasted for forty days. He then started his ministry warning that the Last Day is at hand. Satan tempted him and offered him all kingdoms of earth, in return for Jesus worshipping Satan. Jesus told him that in the Scriptures, bowing down and worship is only given to God. After this, he started preaching the Gospel in Galilee and Jerusalem. Jews conspired against Jesus and wanted to kill him, bribing one of his Disciples to lead them to him. When Jesus knew this, he was sad and wept. He prayed to God to save him from death. God did not answer Jesus’ prayer. Jews and Roman soldiers arrested Jesus and sentenced him to death by crucifixion. Then, they made Jesus wear a red dress, forced him to carry the cross, along with two common criminals and nailed him to the cross. He sought water to drink but was given vinegar to further humiliate him. Then, a soldier stabbed him to death. Jesus was then, as Christians believe, buried and rose from the dead after three days. He than ascended to heaven.



Such claims, as the above, portray Jesus as leading a miserable and humiliated life. He faced torture and persecution. Does such a man deserve to be God, the Creator of heaven and earth the All-Mighty, the King who has total control over creation, who deserves to be glorified? Or does such a weak man, from birth to death, deserves to be a slave who does not deserve to be bowed down to, revered or feared. Such a god, that Christians believe in, does not have the right to ask people to fear, bow down before, revere and glorify’ him. Such a god needs mercy, sustenance and help. Christians, who believed that Jesus is God, are not sane to attribute such things to God whom they call for his worship, obedience and subservience to his control.

[Believer]

Peace Almonte,

Actually Christians didn't make any of this up, it was all revealed in scripture. Even Jesus said many times that He had to fulfill what was written ine the Law, Psalms, and the writings of the prophets.

Have you ever though that maybe God came to earth do He can love us and show compassion to us on a person level?
That Jesus wanted us to love Him like a big brother.
That God wanted to experience first hand life as a man, His cherished creation.

Dude, if I made a race of people...man I'd love to be one for a while!
Just bond with His creation! God is very amazing to have done such a thing! I feel so much closer to God now that He transcended to earth as a man! Now I know my God knoes exactly how I feel, angry, sad, frustrated....as a man. My God is close to be sicne He is my LOrd Creator, my Brother and Savior, and my Guardian Spirit!!!
I am so blessed to believe in God as a Christian!

[Believer]

Almonte, stop parroting the same trash.
Your Deedat-inspired BS has been refuted here, and unless you can directly comment of the passages where Jesus DID identify Himself as the Son of God, was worshipped, and was called "Lord", the expanation in Phillipians 2:5-11, etc ...I'm just going to delete your repetive copy/paste posts. Maybe you should reread my responses here.

[Almonte]

peace all




There is not a nation that has more differences and divisions, in the religion, than the Christians. Their divisions are numerous. These divisions were started with regards to the true nature of Jesus, God and the Holy Ghost. This division spread to all other aspects of their religion. Each sect calls other sects heretic, along with curses.
Monotheists
Some Christians said that Jesus was only a Messenger of God, created by the Word of God, “Be” and Ruhullah, whom Allah sent to the Israelites to call them to believe in Allah, alone, and worship Him. This was the belief of early Christians, whom the Emperors of Rome persecuted. They burnt their books and Bibles, oppressed and almost exterminated them. This group of believers has similar beliefs as Muslims and what Mohammad was sent with. Allah praised this group in the Quran. He said, what translated means:
(O you who believe!Be you help en (in the Cause) of Allah as said Jesus, son of Mary, to the Disciples: “Who are my helpers (in the Cause) of Allah?” The Disciples said: “We are Allah’s helpers (i.e. we will strive in His Cause). Then a group of the Children of Israel believed and a group disbelieved So We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they became the uppermost.) [61:14].Allah called the Disciples “helpers in the cause of Allah.” Jews who believed (in Jesus) were given victory because of their call to Tawhid. They are the true believers in Jesus, the son of Mary.
The above mentioned group decreased in numbers till Mohammad was sent. This was due to persecution, especially after Constantine the Great, the Roman Emperor, became Christian. He forced Roman provinces to accept Christianity, but a disbelieving, polytheistic heresy. This religion was established in the Council of Nicaea in AD 325. This council produced “The Christian Doctrines.” These articles produced the biggest treachery to Jesus and his religion, when the true religion (of Jesus) was altered, in matters of faith and laws. A false religion was forced on people. This false religion called Jesus a “true God”, and the “Son of the True God”, who existed with God since eternity.
Disappearance of Tawhid. the True Religion
As a result of persecution that monotheists, who denied that Jesus was God, were dealt with, true religion started to disappear slowly. True Bibles and books that contained monotheism, were burnt. A false religion was forced on people by authorities and by law.
Monotheists started to decrease in numbers among Christians. When Prophet Mohammad was sent, only few Christians were monotheists. The Prophet said, what translated means: “Allah looked at the people of earth and hated them, Arabs and non-Arabs, except for few of the People of the Scripture” [Muslim].
Of those who witnessed the beginning of Islam, while monotheists themselves, is An-Najashi, Abisynia’s king. When An-Najashi heard the first part of Surah (chapter) Maryam (Mary), he held a straw in his hand and said: “Jesus did not have more to add to this (religion) even if it was like this (straw).” An-Najashi’s Patriarchs rejected this saying. AnNajashi accepted Islam and died a Muslim. When he died, Prophet Mohammad prayed Al-Janazah (funeral) prayer on him.

[newseed]

Jesus' Own Words That He is God

Let's ignore for now some of the plain statements about Jesus, such as John 1:1 "The Word was God", since they were said by others not in His presence. This still leaves a number of places for us to consider.

Jesus Himself said He was God in John 8:58. Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" The word "I am," was the divine name of God, used countless times in the Old Testament. This word "YHWH" in Hebrew, is explained as the "personal name" of God in Exodus 3:14-15, 20:5; Isaiah 42:8; 44:6, this personal name of God has been lost to Muslims. Now the Jews either understood Jesus' communication correctly when they picked up stones to stone Him, or else they misunderstood Jesus' communication. Jesus could have said "there is a mistake here, you misunderstand me. I do not claim to be God like you say." However, there is no record of Jesus ever saying there was any mistake. On the contrary, we have records of the apostles, as well as their disciples, reiterating that Jesus is God.

The Jew's responded directly to Jesus' claim in John 10:33 "'We are not stoning you for any of these', replied the Jews, 'but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.'"

Jesus replied to them that

1) Since Scripture called non-divine being "gods" in Psalm 82:6-7, how much more fitting it is it to call the One uniquely set apart as God's Son.

2) Even if you will not believe Jesus' words alone, at least consider the miracles to understand that the Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father.

On other occasions the scribes and Pharisees wanted to stone Jesus because He claimed to be God. Now imagine a godly person being accused, on multiple occasions, of a wicked crime he did not commit. Imagine him barely escaping some times, but every single time, he never denied that he committed the crime. Can you imagine this? - I cannot. Yet that is what some critics think Jesus did for the crime of blasphemy in claiming to be God.

Negative affirmation: Jesus said of the Pharisees, "if you do not believe that I am the One I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." John 8:24b.

Positive affirmation of Thomas: Thomas the disciple called Jesus God in John 20:28. Thomas even went further than that. John 20:28 actually says that Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus replied to Thomas, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Jesus has no hint of rebuke toward Thomas. Indeed, the only remotely negative thing Jesus said is that those who have not seen Jesus in person and believe (this about Jesus) are more blessed than those who have seen Jesus and believe this. Now either

a) Thomas was wrong, and he sinned by calling Jesus God, and perhaps Jesus sinned by accepting this and not rebuking Thomas, or

b) Jesus was right to affirm what Thomas said.

Do you agree that either: They were both right, or that Thomas and Jesus were both wrong?

Jesus would send His angels in Matthew 13:41, which are the angels of God (Luke 12:8-9; 15:10).

Jesus said he would judge the world (Matthew 24:31-46, 25:31-3; John 5:21-22, 27). Yet is God who is coming to judge the world (Psalm 50:1-6; Joel 3:12; Deuteronomy 32:35)

At Jesus' trial for blasphemy before the Sanhedrin, they could have let him go. All Jesus had to do was say "I am not God, people thinking I was God is a mistake." Yet Jesus never said that, and the trial continued.

"All that belongs to the Father is mine." John 16:15a. Now it is easy to understand someone saying "All that belongs to me I give to God", but Jesus says, "All that belongs to the Father is mine." I have never heard anyone explain how this could be a true statement and Jesus not be God.

A non-Christian might wonder if these were added much later. However, an ancient Bible manuscript called the Bodmer II papyrii (c.125-175 A.D.), has preserved John 1:1-6:11; 6:35b-14:26; 14:29-30; 15:2-26; 16:2-4, 6-7; 16:10-20:20; 20:22-23; 20:25-21:9; 21:12,17.

[newseed]

Jesus Accepted Worship

Jesus Himself told Satan that no one should be worshipped and served except God (Matthew 4:10 and Luke 4:8). Yet…

Jesus accepted worship. Only God should be worshipped, then Jesus was showing that He was God. In John 9:38 when Jesus spoke to the (formerly) blind man a second time, Jesus asked him "Do you believe in the Son of God?" The man asked who He was? Jesus said "You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you." Then the man said "Lord, I believe!" and he worshipped Him. Jesus affirmed Him for his belief, and criticized the Jews who did not believe. Also note that Jesus did not ask if the man believed in God; Jesus asked the man if He believed in the Son of God.

From a leper Jesus accepted worship (Matthew 8:2)

The women at the tomb worshipped Jesus, clasping his feet, in Matthew 28:9

God sent the wise men to worship Jesus (Matthew 2:2), and we should worship too.

The disciples of Jesus, after Jesus walked on water, worshipped Him in Matthew 14:33. None of the disciples ever heard Jesus say this was wrong.

After Jesus rose from the dead, the disciples worshipped Him in Luke 24:52 and Luke 28:17.

Against this, the angel of God refused to allow anyone to worship him (the angel) in Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9. Likewise, Paul and Barnabas refused worship of themselves in Acts 14:11-16.

Either Jesus sinned in accepting worship, or else He was correct in doing so.

[newseed]

Jesus Demonstrated That He was God

Jesus had authority over demons and Jesus said His miracles spoke for him (John 10:25). The Old Testament prophesied of Jesus. Jesus also said that no one came to the Father except through Him (John 14:6; 6:45; ~8:24) However, many Muslims might agree with these things about Jesus, without it proving that Jesus is God.

Jesus made Himself equal with God

a) Jesus said we are to honor the Son just as we honor the Father (John 5:23)

b) Request for prayer in Jesus' name John 14:13-14; 15:7

c) The Father and Jesus "own" all in common. Jn 16:15;17:10.

d) On earth the Father lived in Jesus. Jn 10:38;14:10-11.

e) On earth Jesus was in the Father. Jn 10:38;14:11

f) If you really know Jesus, then you know the Father and have seen the Father. John 14:7-9

Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" in John 10:30.

Jesus had authority, for he said, "You have heard it said, … but I say to you" (Matthew 5:21-22, 78-78)

Jesus can meet our needs in a way that only God can. "If any man is thirsty, let Him come to Me and drink" in John 7:37. See also John 4:14.

Jesus gave His peace to us; He did not say the Father's peace in John 14:27.

In John 6:35 Jesus said He was the bread of life.

Jesus said for us to "believe also in Me." In John 14:1b. Do you believe in Jesus? See also John 11:25.

Jesus said for all who are weary and heavy-laden to come to Him in Matthew 11:28. This offer is still available today, so come to Jesus.

The Bodmer 14/15 papyrii, also called p75, was written 175-225 A.D. It contains most of Luke and John. Specifically, it contains Luke 3:18-22; 3:33-4:2; 4:34-5:10; 5:37-6:4; 6:10-7:32; 7:35-39,41-43; 7:46-9:2; 9:4-17:15; 17:19-18:18; 22:4-24:53. It also has John 1:1-11:45; 11:48-57; 12:3-13:1; 13:8-9; 14:8-29; 15:7-8.

[newseed]

Jesus Forgave Sins Against God

Only God can forgive sins, and Jesus forgave sins against God, then Jesus was showing that He was God. Even in the Muslim Qur’an, Sura 3:135 says that no one can forgive sins except God. In Matthew 9:2-6; Mark 2:5-12, and Luke 5:20-23 Jesus first said to the paralytic "Son, your sins are forgiven you." The scribes said Jesus was speaking blasphemy, because no on can forgive sins but God alone. Jesus did not contradict their statement. He merely asked a question: "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ''your sins are forgiven you," or to say, 'Arise, take up your bed and walk? ' But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins' - He said to the paralytic, 'I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.' And immediately the paralytic rose up and did that!

Jesus did one of two things:

a) Showed He was God by proving He had the power,

b) Deliberately misled them to believe that He was God when He was not.

The question for us is that since this is how Jesus taught and led, do we trust Jesus to follow where He leads or not?

Now someone might reason that perhaps Jesus was merely pronouncing God's forgiveness, rather than forgiving sins against God on His own authority. However, note that Jesus said "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins". So Jesus said it was He who had the power, and he was not just announcing that the Father forgave.

In Luke 7:48-50, Jesus also told the woman who anointed His feet "Your sins are forgiven." Those who sat with Him said, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"

Notice what they "did" to get forgiveness. They did not have to wash themselves enough times, pray enough prayers, pay enough money, or cross enough burning deserts. All they did was come to Jesus, and He freely gave them forgiveness.

[newseed]

The Rest of the New Testament

The gospels and the rest of the New Testament shows that Jesus' followers were taught that Jesus was God.

a) Jesus and the Father have the same nature (Philippians 2:5)

b) Both are rightfully worshipped (Hebrews 1:6)

c) Both rightfully called God (John 1:1; Heb 1:8,9)

d) Both are prayed to (Acts 7:7:59-60)

e) Everything in the world was created through Christ (John 1:3, 10, Colossians 1:16)

f) Everything is sustained through Christ (Col 1:17)

g) The fullness of deity is in Jesus (Colossians 1:19).

h) Jesus is called God in 2 Cor. 11:3 and Titus 2:13

i) Worshipped in Heaven in Revelation 5:8-9; 22:20

j) Prayed to Christ Acts 7:59

Common Names in the Two Testaments

Isaiah 7:14 says there would be one born called Emmanuel, that is, "God with us". Psalm 110:1 says, "The Lord said to my Lord…". Who is this Lord who was prophesied about 1,000 years before Jesus. By the way, this is one of the most quoted Old Testament verses in the New Testament. This is an unsolvable mystery to Muslims as it is to Jews. Jesus answered this riddle, by saying it referred to himself.

A Muslim might wonder if these parts were a later addition. However, not only do Suras 5:46-48, 3:48 show that Jesus was taught the Torah and confirmed God’s Word, but the Dead Sea Scrolls include many copies of the Old Testament from the time of Jesus.

The Old Testament also had many names for God, and this section proves the New Testament applied these names to Jesus. This is broken down to three lines in each descritpion below. The first being the Title of God, then The Father and the Jesus.

Example:

Bridegroom (Title of God)
Isaiah 62:5; Jeremiah 2:2 (The Father)
Mt 25:1; Jn 3:29; Rev 21:2 (Jesus)

and now the rest....

Creator
Genesis 1:1; Isaiah 42:5
John 1:1-3; Heb. 1:8,10; Col 1:16

Every knee will bow to…
Isa 45:22-23
Philippians 2:10-11

First and Last
Isaiah 44:6; 43:10f
Rev 1:17; 2:8; 22:12-13

Forgiver of sins
Ps 130:4; Jer 31:34
Acts 5:31; 13:38; Col 3:13

Giver of bread
Exodus 16:4-15
John 6:35,40-51; 53-58

Giver of life
Gen. 1:30; Dt. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6
John 5:21,25,29; 6:63; 10:10

Giver of living water
Jeremiah 2:13; Isaiah 55:1
John 4:10

God
Isaiah 10:20-21; 43:10; Ps 89:2-6
John 20:28; Titus 2:13

Healer
Exodus 15:26; Psalm 103:3
Mark 5:30; Acts 9:34; Mt 4:23; 9:35

Holy One
Isaiah 41:16; 43:15; Hab 1:12
John 6:69

Husband
Hos 2:16; Isa 50:2; Jer 3:1,14
Eph 5:28-33; Rom 7:4

Judge the living and the dead
Isa 33:22; Ps 50:4,6
2 Tim 4:1; John 5:22,27

Judgment seat
Rom. 6:5; 14:10
2 Corinthians 5:10

King
Ps. 5:2; 1 Sam. 12:12; Mal. 1:4
Mt. 27:11; Mark 15:2; Jn 18:37-38

Life
Deuteronomy 30:32
Mk 12:10; Jn 14:6; 1 Jn 1:1-2; 5:11-12

Light
Ps 27:1; Micah 7:8
John 1:9; 8:12

Lord
Psalm 110:1; Mark 12:36
Mt 12:8; Mk 12:36; Jn 13:13; Jms 2:1

Lord of Lords
Dt. 10:17
Rev 17:14; 19:16

Mighty God
Joshua 22:22; Job 9:19
Isaiah 9:6

Must believe in
Ps 78:21-22,32; Isaiah 43:10
John 6:29-30; 8:24; 11:25; 14:1,6

Our hope
Psalm 33:20,22; 130:7
1 Timothy 1:1; Romans 15:12

Purifies us
Psalm 51:10; Isaiah 1:18,25
Titus 2:14; 1 John 1:7

Raise the dead
Isa. 26:9; Hosea 13:14; Job 3:13-17; 19:26-27
Jn 5:21; 11:38-44

Ransoms us
Jeremiah 31:11
Mt 20:28; Mark 10:45; 1 Tim 2:6; Heb 9:15

Redeemer
Ps 130:7; Hos 13:14; Isa. 44:6
Gal 4:5; Titus 2:13-14; Rev 5:9

Righteous One
Psalm 11:7; Isaiah 24:16
1 John 2:1

Rock, Stone
Ps 1:2; 18:2,31 95:1; Isaiah 44:8
1 Cor 10:4; 1 Pet 2:6-8

Ruler with a scepter/rod
Psalm 45:6
Revelation 19:15; Hebrews 1:8

Savior
Isaiah 43:4,11; Isaiah 45:21
Titus 1:3-4; 1 Jn 4:14,42; Acts 4:10

Shepherd
Ps 23:1; Isaiah 40:11
John 10:11; 1 Pet 5:4; Heb 13:20

Sovereign and Lord
Genesis 15:2,8; Amos 1:8; Ob. 1
Jude 4

Sword-holder
Psalm 17:13
Revelation 19:15

Worthy of praise & honor
Psalm 18:3; 108:3-5
Revelation 5:13b; John 5:23


As a side note, John 18:37-38, where Christ says He is a king, is a part of the John Rylands manuscript, dated 117-138 A.D.

[newseed]

Proof from even Non-Christians that Christians Taught Jesus is God

Even the enemies of Christianity bear witness that Christians worshipped Jesus as God.

Pliny the Younger (governor and persecutor of Christians in 112 A.D.) "They [Christians] were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to do any wicked deeds…"

Lucian (2nd century satirist) "The Christian, you know, worship a man to this day - the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account…."

This is significant, because an official Roman query states that Christians worshipped Christ as God as early as 112 A.D. Thus, if a Muslim wishes to say that worshipping Jesus as God was an "error" introduced later, this was introduced prior to 112 A.D. By the way, the apostle John wrote the book of John around 90 A.D., and he lived a while after that. Again, the first fragment of John we have today that mentions Christ as a king (an un-Islamic term) is the John Rylands fragment, 117-138 A.D.

Conclusion

Early Bible manuscripts show, and the writings of followers and even foes of Christ confirm, that Jesus taught that He was God, demonstrated He was God, and accepted worship. The evidence stretches from c.112 A.D., up through Mohammed's time, when 'Aisha reports that Mohammed was taught the Gospels in Arabic (Bukhari 4:605). Jesus was taught the Gospel according to Sura 3:48, and Christians are the people of the Gospel in Sura 5:46.

But you might say that the Bible is corrupted. If so, then where does that say that in the Koran? You will find verses that man perverted the teachings but nowhere does it reveal nor will you ever find it saying that the Bible was corrupted.

But if by chance you say that the Koran does not directly say the Bible was corrupted but it's still corrupted because that is what you believe...then why are you asking the question 'where does it say that Jesus is God' when you can't even directly claim (prove) that the Bible was corrupted...conclusively...without a doubt.

[Masquerade]

Is Jesus God? No. Jesus prayed in his time of need to God. Jesus fled for his life when the Pharasies tried to stone him, and Jesus also had to eat, drink, sleep, go to the bathroom, and breathe like everyone else.

[Alpha]

Is Jesus God? No. Jesus prayed in his time of need to God. Jesus fled for his life when the Pharasies tried to stone him, and Jesus also had to eat, drink, sleep, go to the bathroom, and breathe like everyone else.

Phillippians 2:5-8>Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Jesus is God in the flesh:

1 Timothy 3:16>And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Colossians 1:14-15>In whom (Jesus) we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn {Inheritor} of every creature:

Colossians 2:9-10>For in Him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Hebrews 1:8>But unto the Son (Jesus) He (Father) saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy Kingdom.

Mark 2:5-12>When Jesus saw their faith, He said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, He saith to the sick of the palsy, I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

etc, etc, etc.

[Bushmaster]

Is Jesus God? No. Jesus prayed in his time of need to God. Jesus fled for his life when the Pharasies tried to stone him, and Jesus also had to eat, drink, sleep, go to the bathroom, and breathe like everyone else.

What a perfect example of islamic tavhid parrot!!! ... You can not understand Trinity or Jesus' Deity using islamic tavhid. You can not interpret Christian data according to the rules of islam ... Here is your logic, "If Jesus is God, then God is Jesus" and the rest comes about God doesn't eat, God doesn't sleep, God doesn't rest, all that. However, Jesus (during his life on Earth) is from God and Divine therefore He is "God". If you get it all backwards and conclude "God is Jesus", to be more specific "all that there is to God is Jesus" you are wrong, in that case there wouldn't be a Blessed Trinity, there wouldn't be no God tThe Father, or Holy Spirit. If that was the case, it wouldn't be necessary to mention God The Father or The Spirit. Read John 1:1-5 again. You can NOT interpret the data you derive from Trinity using islamic tavhid. The creator is the FATHER, JESUS is the WORD and ACTION. JESUS had the SPIRIT from the FATHER during His life on Earth. So in short, God can and will do all you listed above. He is not limited for what you think of Him.

[Bushmaster]

Different screen names, same topics...

[Almonte]

peace all



Jesus attested that he was a Messenger from God, the Only God, all praise be to Him. The Bible reports that Jesus used to always remind his Disciples that he was the Messenger of God. Jesus used to say that God is the Only God, all praise be to Him, and that he was but a Prophet whom Allah has bestowed His Bounty on. Following are some evidence from the Bible.
In John [18:31-47] we read about the argument between Jesus and some of the Jews. Some Jews believed in Jesus and some disbelieved, as the Quran testified: ( Then a group of the Children of Israel believed (in Jesus) and a group disbelieved) [62.14].
Jesus said to: { those Jews which believed on him, if ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be .Abraham’s seed, and were never an bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall he made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I seek that which I have seen with my Father and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said
unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did hot Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even Got Jesus said unto them, if God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself but he sent me, Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and a father of it And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do you not believe me? He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.}
John wrote that Jesus said: (If God were your Father, ye would love me: for l proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself but he sent me. } The Jews always claimed that they were God’s Children and His loved ones. Allah said, what translated means: (And (both) the Jews and Christians say: “We are the children of Allah and His loved ones “Say:
“Why then does He punish you for your sins?” Nay, you are but human beings, of those He has created, He forgives whom He wilt And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and to Him is the return (of all)) [5:18]
Jesus refined their claim, of being God’s children and loved ones. He said to them that if you were truly God’s children, as you claim, you would believe in me for I proceeded from God. This means that God has sent him. Jesus said: (Neither camel of myself but he sent me.} This is proof that Jesus is only a Messenger whom Allah sent, not God as the Christians claim in their Kufr (disbelief), and not a God-like personality. Allah is praised and free of all of these claims.
The above text is similar to what the Quran testified, that the Jews tried to kill Jesus. Jesus told them: (If ye were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God)
Jesus argued with the Jews saying that if they were true children of Abraham, in terms of following and belief, they would do the same works of Abraham, believe and do good. Rather, they tried to kill Jesus, a Messenger of God who, like Abraham before him, called the Jews to believe and do righteousness. But the Jews (who defied Jesus) were the children of the devil, ashe described them.
The above tells us, again, that the Jews used the words, “Son of God”, or, “Children of God”, to describe either blood relations or who they follow in belief. They called the believer who obeys God’s commandments, the “Son of God.” They also called the one who obeys Satan, the “Son of the Devil.” Jews were direct descendants of Abraham, from his son Isaac, and Jesus definitely knew that. Vet, when Jesus denied that the Jews were Abraham’s children, he was talking about their following, obedience and love. This was common in their language.
Jesus said: (For I proceeded forth and came from God}. This is not as Christians claim, that Jesus was begotten of God, Allah is praised from such a claim, God, all praise be to him, is One. He said, what translated means: ( He begets not, nor He was begotten. And there is none coequal or comparable unto Him) [112: 3-4]
Rather, this is similar to what Jesus said to the Jews: (He that is of God heareth God’s words, ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God).
The above text is also similar to what the Quran said of the cursed Jews accusing Jesus of being illegitimate. Allah said,
And uttering against Mary a grave false charge (that she committed illegal sexual intercourse)) [4:156] The Jews, wickedly, say to Jesus (We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God}. This is an accusation against Mary, the one whom Allah purified and praised, (that she committed fornication).
Jesus said: (Neither came l of myself , but he sent me). This is proof that Jesus was a Messenger of God, not God or one who has a say with God’s will. This was repeated many times in the Bible,
Jesus said: (But he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him } [John 8:26].
Jesus said: (And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone ; for I do always those things that please him.) [John 8:29]. This is a clear evidence that Jesus was a Messenger and slave of God, subservient to His Will and always seeking His Pleasure while worshipping Him.He did not have a will of his own, as the Christians claim. Rather he said: {For I do always those things that please him}.
As for God being with Jesus, this refers to God’s care of him. God is with His Prophets and all believers. God’s presence, in terms of granting aid and victory, with His Prophets is great indeed. God protects and takes care of His Prophets. Allah said, what translated means: (I am with you both, Hearing and Seeing) [20:46].
And, ( Truly, Allah is with those who fear Him, and those who are good-doers .) [16128].
God is with the believers in His care and granting aid and victory to them. Jesus was a Messenger of Allah, believing and obedient. Allah was always with him aiding, caring arid granting victory.
John wrote that Jesus, before raising Lazarus from the dead, raised his eyes to the sky and said: (Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.) [John 11:41-42].
The above text clearly shows that Jesus raised the dead by God’s Will, not of himself or his power. God granted him the miracle of raising the dead as proof to his Prophecy and Message. Allah said, what translated means: ( And when you brought forth the dead by My permission. ) [5:110].
When Jesus raised the dead from their graves, he did that by the Will of God, who granted him such power. This is not because Jesus is His begotten Son, or that he has a will of his own that permits him to raise the dead. Rather, God granted Jesus such power to show everyone that he is a Messenger of God. The Bible said: (But because of the people which stand by I, that they may believe that thou hast sent me). The people around Jesus were waiting for this miracle to happen. All what Jesus sought was that they believe that he was a Messenger sent by God. If Jesus was God, he would have said to them: “Look what I did with my Will, I raised the dead, created and sustained.” Allah is praised from having a son or a partner in His Kingdom or Lordship.
Jesus said to his Disciples before sending them to preach the Gospel: (He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.) [John 13:20].
The above is similar to what the last Messenger of God (Mohammad) said, what translated means: “Whoever obeys my Amir (whom I appoint as leaders), obeys ma Whoever obeys me, obeys Allah. Whoever disobeyed my Amir, disobeys me. Whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah.” [Al-Bukhari & Muslim]. When Jesus said: (And he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me), He meant that God, the Praised One, sent him to the Jews (as a Messenger).
Jesus said: (And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent) [John 17:3]. This is proof that eternal life, in Paradise, is for those who believed in the Only True God, the Praised One, Alone, and that He sent Jesus.
John wrote that when Jesus felt that his life on earth was nearing end, he started praying to God to protect his Disciples. He said: {For I have given unto them the words which thou gayest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.) [John 17:8].
Jesus said (O righteous Father, the world hath not known that : but I have known thee, and these have known that thou host sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou host loved me may be in them, and I in them.) [John17:25-26].
This text is clear evidence that Jesus was a righteous Messenger and Prophet from God, who knew God, not that he knew he himself was God. God is not ignorant of anything that will happen. He is not ignorant of anything. All Jesus sought to confirm was that he knew God and believed in Him. Jesus taught his Disciples God’s name and attributes. He prayed to God for them. He wished that the spirit of his Message, which he taught them, stayed with them: (And I in them). Jesus does not incarnate in his Disciples, nor they in him. He is their teacher. What he teaches them is what stays of him, in them. The light, guidance and belief he gave them, is what united them. All people of belief, angles or humans, have a light of belief, guidance and mercy of Allah in them. His grace and pleasure descended on them.
The above, by no means, meant that God, the All- Mighty, has His attributes incarnated in His creation and what he invented, Allah is praised from such a claim. God is the Lord, the Only God, who does not beget nor is He begotten.
None is like unto God.

[Believer]

Peace Almonte,

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

I recommend you reread my first response to you on this thread.
Please answer to things in my post.

Jesus admitted He was the King, the King that sits at the right hand of God as the OT says. The King is God Himself! He will be worshipped by all people and nations! Please answer to what I said, you jsut keep ignoring my answers which I dislike.

[adampastor]

Greetings NEWSEED
In reply to your points ...

Jesus' Own Words That He is God

Let's ignore for now some of the plain statements about Jesus, such as John 1:1 "The Word was God" ...

Have another read of John 1:1. As you see, Jesus isn't even mentioned!
John 1:1 is about GOD's word even as Gen 1:3, Psalms 33:6,9 is about GOD's word.
To quote Colin Brown

Indeed to be a “Son of God” one has to be a being who is not God! ... It is a common but patent misreading of the opening of John’s Gospel to read it as if it said: “In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God and the Son was God.”

[adampastor]

Jesus Himself said He was God in John 8:58 . Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" The word "I am," was the divine name of God, used countless times in the Old Testament. This word "YHWH" in Hebrew, is explained as the "personal name" of God in Exodus 3:14-15, 20:5; Isaiah 42:8; 44:6 ...

This is classic trinitarian propaganda of John 8:58! This is the one verse in the entire NT where Jesus is supposedly have said "I am GOD".
But no matter how many times you read this verse, it does not say,
"Before Abraham was, I am GOD". It just does not say that!

Before I continue, let me clarify two points.
1) The word(s) "I am" (ehyeh/ani hu) is not the name of GOD and
2) it is NOT used countless of times in the Hebrew Bible (The Old Testament) as the divine name of GOD.

The divine and personal name of GOD is YHWH, depicted as the tetragrammaton (Greek for 4-letter name); which is used over 6700 times in the Hebrew Bible.
Hence (Exo 3:14-15) reads And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM [EHYEH ASHER EHYEH]: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM [EHYEH] hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YaHWeH God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.


Ehyeh (or Hayah), therefore, is being used to describe the infinitude and the eternality of GOD. However His name is YAHWEH.
Even the Greek OT (the Septuagint, LXX) depicts Exo 3:14 as "Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel,
'HO ON' ('THE BEING') has sent me to you."
Therefore, if the trinitarian propaganda was true, that John 8:58 was a quote of Exo 3:14, it would therefore read ...
Before Abraham was, EGO EIMI HO ON or Before Abraham was, HO ON
Which of course, IT DOES NOT!! WHY NOT?? Because there is no connection at all between Exo 3:14 and John 8:58 at all!

So what was Jesus saying in John 8:53-58?
Answer: He was claiming to be greater than Abraham & the prophets because he was the Messiah. He was stating that before Abraham was, he (that is Jesus) was foreordained to be the Messiah; hence he was before Abraham, in the sense of pre-eminence & priority.
Note: Jesus never said that he saw Abraham, neither did he say Abraham saw him. His enemies misunderstood him (like they so often did) - they misunderstood his Messianic claim!!

John 8:58 is a Messianic claim.

So that I do not repeat myself, word for word, I have already gone into great detail concerning a better scriptural interpretation of John 8:58 elsewhere on this forum.
Please refer to: http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=3428&start=12

Let me conclude with these quotes:

The identification of Jesus’ ‘I am’ statements [of John's Gospel] with the ‘I am He’ (‘ani hu’) of Yahweh in the Old Testament ... I believe to be a misreading which can be shown to be such by careful attention to the text [of John].
Of the 'I am' sayings in this Gospel ... (‘I am the bread of life ... the good shepherd’, etc.) certainly do not imply that the subject is God.

Of the ‘absolute’ uses of ego eimi, the majority are simply establishing identification: ‘I am he.’ This is so of 4:26 (the Messiah you speak of); 6:20 (confirming Jesus’ identity on the lake at night, exactly as in Mark 6:50, Matt. 14:27); 9:9 (on the lips not of Jesus but of the blind man) and 18:5-8, the ‘I am your man’ at the arrest (cp. Acts 10:21), even though it evokes awe (though not the reaction to blasphemy) in the arresting party. There is the same usage in the resurrection scene of Luke 24:39, ‘it is I myself’ ... Three other occurrences (8:24, 28, 13:19) are I believe correctly rendered by the NEB ‘I am what I am,’ namely the truth of what really I am. They do not carry with them the implication that he is Yahweh (indeed in the latter two especially there is contrast with the Father who sent him), but, in Johannine terms ‘the Christ, the Son of God’.

Ego eimi (‘I am he’) does not identify Jesus with God, but it does draw attention to him in the strongest possible terms. I am the one, the one you must look at and listen to if you would know God”

[Referring to John 8:28 he writes]
“It is simply intolerable that Jesus should be made to say, ‘I am God, the supreme God of the Old Testament, and being God I do as I am told’; and to 13:19, ‘I am God, and I am here because someone sent me’ …
Jesus’ ego eimi is not a claim to divinity.”

We should reject the idea that ego eimi means ‘I (Jesus) am God.’

[adampastor]

On the contrary, we have records of the apostles, as well as their disciples, reiterating that Jesus is God. The Jew's responded directly to Jesus' claim in John 10:33 "'We are not stoning you for any of these', replied the Jews, 'but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.'" Jesus replied to them that
1) Since Scripture called non-divine being "gods" in Psalm 82:6-7, how much more fitting it is it to call the One uniquely set apart as God's Son.

Newseed, what is your meaning of 'divine'?

Because 'divine' is a 'loaded' word.
It can mean either a) from or of GOD e.g. divine word, divine mission, etc
or b) it could be used as an equivalent to 'deity' hence ONLY THE ONE GOD is divine.
Which is your meaning? In what sense do you mean?

I would reword no. 1 as follows ...
Since Scripture called human beings "gods" in Psalm 82:6-7, how much more fitting it is it to call the One human being (i.e. the One man) who is uniquely set apart as God's Son.
Which IMHO, I believe was the audience's understanding of his statement.
Therefore, Psalms 82:6-7 as well as Exo 7:1, 21:6, 22:8-9; let's us know that men (human beings) can be called god/elohim/theos; yet, it does NOT MAKE THEM ALMIGHTY GOD!!!

2) Even if you will not believe Jesus' words alone, at least consider the miracles to understand that the Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father.

Amen! Agreed! THE ONE GOD, the Father did the works. The Son did nothing i.e. none of these works of himself [John 5:19,30; 8:28] hence the Son is NOT Almighty GOD!
(John 14:10) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

On other occasions the scribes and Pharisees wanted to stone Jesus because He claimed to be God.

Present your proof from scripture. There is no verse where Jesus claimed to 'be God'.
He may have been accused of such a claim; but who are we ought to believe? His false accusers or the true & faithful witness, Jesus??

Jesus, the Master Rabbi, inform us in what sense 'god/elohim/theos' can be used in regards to him. Read again John 10:33-36 and Psalm 82:6.

Negative affirmation: Jesus said of the Pharisees, "if you do not believe that I am the One I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." John 8:24b.

“The phrase is specifically Messianic. In John 8:24 ego eimi is to be understood as a reference to Jesus’ Messiahship…‘If you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins’”

[adampastor]

Positive affirmation of Thomas: Thomas the disciple called Jesus God in John 20:28 . Thomas even went further than that. John 20:28 actually says that Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus replied to Thomas, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Jesus has no hint of rebuke toward Thomas. Indeed, the only remotely negative thing Jesus said is that those who have not seen Jesus in person and believe (this about Jesus) are more blessed than those who have seen Jesus and believe this. Now either a) Thomas was wrong, and he sinned by calling Jesus God, and perhaps Jesus sinned by accepting this and not rebuking Thomas, or b) Jesus was right to affirm what Thomas said.

Read the context. What was it that Thomas finally believed? He finally believed that Jesus the Messiah had been raised from the dead. Jesus said more blessed are they that believe ... believe what?
Believe 'that Jesus was raised from the dead' although they have not seen him raised! More blessed are such believers!
Thomas however, had to see him to believe it. Therefore, more blessed are they, rather, who have not seen the resurrected Jesus yet believe it!!

Therefore, Thomas had seen the ultimate proof (i.e. the resurrected Jesus) that Jesus is who he had always claimed to be, that is, the Messiah; hence, Thomas acknowledges him as such.

Scripturally, not only is the Messiah, called 'Son' [Psalms 2:7,12] and 'King' [Psalm 2:6, 45:1]; he is also called 'Lord' [Psalms 110:1] and 'elohim/god' [Psalm 45:6-7].
Scripturally, the Messiah is to be 'the Anointed King' who is anointed by Almighty GOD, above all his fellows.
[Psa 45:7]
Yes, the Messiah is called 'god/elohim' (Jesus himself quoted scripture to show that men are called 'gods/elohim' - John 10:34, Psa 82:6. Even Moses was called elohim [Exo 7:1, cp. 4:16])
I say again, Yes, the Messiah is called 'god/elohim'.
However, it was the Messiah's GOD, the ONE GOD, the LORD GOD, YAHWEH ALMIGHTY, who anointed Jesus, hence Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, the Anointed One, the Anointed/Messiah/Christ of GOD. [Luke 9:20 cp. 1 Sam 16:6, 24:6, etc.]
Thomas (as well as the other disciples incl. the writer of Hebrews) came to the realization that Jesus of Nazareth is indeed the Messianic King prophesied of in Psalms 45. Hence, Thomas' confession:
"My Lord [Psalms 110:1] and My God [Psalms 45:6]"

Jesus would send His angels in Matthew 13:41, which are the angels of God (Luke 12:8-9; 15:10). Jesus said he would judge the world (Matthew 24:31-46, 25:31-3; John 5:21-22, 27). Yet is God who is coming to judge the world (Psalm 50:1-6; Joel 3:12; Deuteronomy 32:35)

Jesus is indeed the ultimate plenipotentiary and agent of GOD.
As GOD's agent, he therefore acts for GOD and speaks for GOD.
Newseed, you need to study, the scriptural & Jewish 'law of agency'. There are examples of this law/principle throughout both the OT and NT. In the OT, the majority of the examples are the angels, who speak for and act for GOD. Also elsewhere in the Scriptures, you will see examples of 'servants and messengers' who act for and speak for the one who sent them.
Jesus the Messiah, the Son of man, is therefore, GOD's agent. He will judge for GOD and instruct GOD's angels. How that? Because he will not operate in his own will, but rather, he will act totally in submission to the will of GOD. [John 5:30, 8:15-16]
Jesus is the ultimate servant, agent and representative of Almighty GOD.

"All that belongs to the Father is mine." John 16:15a. Now it is easy to understand someone saying "All that belongs to me I give to God", but Jesus says, "All that belongs to the Father is mine." I have never heard anyone explain how this could be a true statement and Jesus not be God.

The simple answer is because Jesus of Nazareth is GOD's Son, GOD's Firstborn. In the Jewish mindset, to the '[firstborn] son of a father', everything the father was and had was his.
Note, the father's remarks to his eldest son (i.e. the firstborn who inherits all things) in (Luke 15:31) And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. Compare that to John 16:15!

As the son of the Father (2 John 3), Jesus inherits all things [see also Psa 2:6-8, 89:27; Dan 7:13-14, Col 1:15, Heb 1:4] ... all that belongs to GOD, belongs to him, because he is GOD's firstborn, GOD's son.
And everything Jesus possesses is given him from Almighty GOD, his Father.

[adampastor]

Jesus Accepted Worship Jesus Himself told Satan that no one should be worshipped and served except God (Matthew 4:10 and Luke 4:8 . Yet… Jesus accepted worship.

Jesus was and is 'worshipped' because he is the Lord Messiah, the Son of the Living GOD. The scriptures distinctly depict two types of appropriate worship
1) The worship which belongs to GOD Almighty alone
2) And the worship which is given to kings, prophets and dignitaries.
For example, (1 Chr 29:20) And David said to all the congregation, Now bless YAHWEH your God. And all the congregation blessed YAHWEH God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped YAHWEH, and the king.


The Bible's words for worship, are the Hebrew word Shachah and the Greek word Proskuneo. They are consistently used in regards to both GOD and men.
Elsewhere on this forum, I have already gone into far greater detail, so I won't repeat myself word for word. Therefore I refer you to:
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=3428&start=23

[adampastor]

Jesus Demonstrated That He was God

Jesus had authority over demons and Jesus said His miracles spoke for him (John 10:25). The Old Testament prophesied of Jesus. Jesus also said that no one came to the Father except through Him (John 14:6; 6:45; 8:24) ... Jesus made Himself equal with God

Both the authority that Jesus exhibited and the miracles proved the point that Jesus was indeed the Messiah, GOD's agent, GOD's representative, GOD's Anointed One, GOD's Sent One. Therefore, Jesus solely claimed to be the Messiah. He never ever made himself equal to Almighty GOD. All the six examples that you used (a thru f plus the others) can be explained in that light.
Jesus is GOD's ultimate plenipotentiary and representative.

Jesus said for us to "believe also in Me." In John 14:1b. Do you believe in Jesus?

Seeing that Jesus is 'THAT PROPHET' spoken of by Moses who was to be 'like unto Moses' [Deut 18:15,18-19], I personally, do indeed believe in him.
Compare ...

• (John 14:1) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
• (Exo 14:31) And Israel saw that great work which YAHWEH did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared YAHWEH, and believed YAHWEH, and his servant Moses.
• (1 Sam 12:18 ) So Samuel called unto YAHWEH; and YAHWEH sent thunder and rain that day: and all the people greatly feared YAHWEH and Samuel.

[adampastor]

Jesus Forgave Sins Against God
Only God can forgive sins, and Jesus forgave sins against God, then Jesus was showing that He was God.

If that indeed proved that Jesus was Almighty GOD, then all the apostles are GOD also! What do I mean?
The same authority wherewith Jesus forgave sins was given to his apostles.
(John 20:20-23) And when he had so said, he showed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

The words 'forgiven/forgive' in Matt chap. 9 and the words 'remit/remitted' in John chap. 20 are the same Greek word aphiemi ... John 20:23 could easily read ... Whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; ...

The apostles were to forgive/remit sins even as Jesus their Master had done so!!
Yet they are not GOD are they???

Let's look again at this event ...
[Please note: The word used for 'power' is the Greek word exousia which means AUTHORITY!]

(Mat 9:4-8 ) And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? 5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? 6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power/AUTHORITY on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. 7 And he arose, and departed to his house. 8 But when the multitude saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power/AUTHORITY unto men.
(Mark 2:12) And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.
(Luke 5:25-26) And immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereon he lay, and departed to his own house, glorifying God. 26 And they were all amazed, and they glorified God, and were filled with fear, saying, We have seen strange things to day.

Get it! The man's sins were forgiven via the authority that Almighty GOD had given to Jesus, the Son of man ... in light of this, the witnesses of this great event glorified GOD who gave such authority to men.
Thank GOD for common people! [Mark 12:37] Who are not bound up by Greek Hellenistic philosophy and church councils' teachings ... common people ... who could clearly see that this man before them, the man Jesus of Nazareth [Acts 2:22] was not GOD Almighty but rather GOD's authorized, appointed agent ... a man authorized and appointed to forgive sins on behalf of GOD Himself ... a man who did all things by the power of GOD, because it was GOD the Father who did the works!

Whose report will we believe? Those who believed on him [Matt 9:8, Acts 2:22] or the so-called church fathers who taught that Jesus is Almighty GOD?
The choice is ours!!

[adampastor]

Jesus did one of two things: a) Showed He was God by proving He had the power, b) Deliberately misled them to believe that He was God when He was not.

Jesus did NEITHER.
What he did was or rather what GOD did through him,
was to show that His Son was authorized and appointed by Him to forgive sins and heal in His name.
As Jesus himself said ....

• (John 5:19) Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
• (John 8:28 ) Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
• (John 14:10-11) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Jesus had NO POWER OF HIMSELF. GOD worked through Jesus. GOD the Father did all the works. Jesus DID NOTHING OF HIMSELF.
GOD via the works showed that Jesus was the Messiah and His Son.
Jesus misled no one. He taught those who had an ear to hear, that he was indeed, the Messiah, the Son of the Living GOD, and as such, they were to put their trust in him, because everything he said and did, was OF GOD ALMIGHTY, his Father and not of himself!

(John 12:48-50) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

[adampastor]

However, note that Jesus said "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins". So Jesus said it was He who had the power, and he was not just announcing that the Father forgave.

Jesus 'HAD' authority/power to forgive sins because it was GIVEN him from Almighty GOD.
[Please note: The word used for 'power' is the Greek word exousia which means AUTHORITY!]

(Mat 9:4-8 ) And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? 5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? 6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power/AUTHORITY on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. 7 And he arose, and departed to his house. 8 But when the multitude saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power/AUTHORITY unto men.

[adampastor]

The Rest of the New Testament

The gospels and the rest of the New Testament shows that Jesus' followers were taught that Jesus was God.

a) Jesus and the Father have the same nature (Philippians 2:5)

b) Both are rightfully worshipped (Hebrews 1:6)

c) Both rightfully called God (John 1:1; Heb 1:8,9)

d) Both are prayed to (Acts 7:7:59-60)

e) Everything in the world was created through Christ (John 1:3, 10, Colossians 1:16)

f) Everything is sustained through Christ (Col 1:17)

g) The fullness of deity is in Jesus (Colossians 1:19).

h) Jesus is called God in 2 Cor. 11:3 and Titus 2:13

i) Worshipped in Heaven in Revelation 5:8-9; 22:20

j) Prayed to Christ Acts 7:59

Rather, the gospels and the rest of the New Testament shows that Jesus' followers were taught ...
that Jesus was indeed the Messiah, the Son of the Living GOD, GOD's appointed agent and plenipotentiary

1. The Greek text of Philippians 2:6 is more correctly rendered that Jesus did not grasp after equality with GOD
   Unlike Adam [Gen 3:5]. Where Adam failed, Jesus succeeded. Where Adam sought to exalt himself, Jesus humbled himself.
   As followers of Christ, we ought to have the same mind.
   The expression 'form of GOD' is equiv. to 'image of GOD' [Gen 1:27]; i.e. Jesus the second man, the second Adam, being a man, he was indeed the ultimate 'image of GOD', the ultimate 'man'; he was the image that GOD had intended all men to be ... Jesus proved this by being in total submission to Almighty GOD, hence all his followers now need to be conformed to Jesus' image. [Rom 8:29]
2. Both are rightfully worshipped (Hebrews 1:6)
   Yes. GOD as GOD ALMIGHTY! Jesus as the King Messiah, the man whom Almighty GOD made both Christ and Lord of all; even angels therefore, have been made subject to him. [Acts 2:36, 10:36; 1 Pet 3:22, 1 Cor 15:27-28; Heb 2:5-9]
3. John 1:1 is speaking about the word of God
   Moses is also called 'God/elohim'. [Exo 7:1] So were the OT judges [Exo 21:6, 22:8-9] So your point is?
4. Stephen is speaking to Jesus who he sees.
   Stephen is not praying to him. He is invoking and calling upon Jesus whilst beholding him. There is a difference!.
   
   Solely GOD the Father is prayed to throughout the scriptures, both OT & NT.
5. Everything in the world was created by GOD Almighty. The new creation, the new heavens and earth are created by GOD through Christ.
   John 1:3 is about GOD's spoken word (cp. Psalms 33:6,9)
   Concerning John 1:10, Colossians 1:16 - For my comments on these, see
   http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=3553&start=41
6. Everything is sustained through Christ (Col 1:17)
   Yep! That is his appointed position by Almighty GOD. However, it is GOD who sustains all things through Christ.
7. Yep! GOD's fullness dwells in the man Christ Jesus. He may be 'full of GOD' however he is not GOD. Rather, Jesus is GOD's human temple.
   Also, Paul prayed that ... (Eph 3:19) And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
8. Jesus is called God in 2 Cor. 11:3 and Titus 2:13
   He is???
   (2 Cor 11:3) But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
   Bit puzzled by this one.
   However, the Greek text of Titus 2:13 reads rather:
   (Titus 2:13) Looking for that blessed hope, and the appearing of the glory of the great God AND our Saviour Jesus Christ;
   Compare (Mat 16:27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
   (Luke 9:26) For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
   See also Mark 8:38
9. Revelation 5:8-9 ... Yep! Christ is due worship and honor as the Lamb of Almighty GOD.
   (Rev 5:9) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10. Check any bible. The word 'God' in Acts 7:59 is in italics i.e. it is NOT in the Greek text
    Acts 7:59 actually reads ... And they stoned Stephen, calling upon and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

[adampastor]

Newseed, that’s all my comments for now … over to you
God Bless

[newseed]

Greetings adampastor,

These responses that you are pasting here should belong to the 'Jesus Deity' topic where you were once discussing this very same thing with Omega and Webmaster. As I can see, you have yet to respond to their last few postings.

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... c&start=20

If you wish to continue this discussion, then please go to the 'Jesus Deity' topic and we will be more than happy to further discuss the matter.

In His Name,
Eddie

[Almonte]

Peace all

In the name of Allah

2:255
Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).]
5:17
In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."

[newseed]

Revelations 22:18-19

18: For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Sounds like to me that Mohammad done just that!

[Almonte]

peace all

If God is three and one at the same time, who was the God in Heaven within three days between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrect ion?

Why does the Bible say that Jesus wanted to die on the cross, when the one on the cross was shouting "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" according to Matthew 27:45 and Mark 15:33?
To be son is to be less than divine and to be divine is to be no one’s son. How could Jesus have the attributes of sonship and divinity altogether

Why do the Christians say that Jesus came with a universal mission when he said that he was sent to the Jews only? He said to the Canaanite woman who asked him to heal her daughter from demon-possession: "I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel" and also said: "It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs", Matthew 15:21-28.

[Believer]

Peace Almonte,

If God is three and one at the same time, who was the God in Heaven within three days between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrect ion?

God can be everywhere at once.
The Father was in heaven, and the Son was freeing the captives in Sheol while his body lay in the tomb.

Why does the Bible say that Jesus wanted to die on the cross, when the one on the cross was shouting "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" according to Matthew 27:45 and Mark 15:33?
To be son is to be less than divine and to be divine is to be no one’s son. How could Jesus have the attributes of sonship and divinity altogether

We have shown you Phillipians 2:5-11 many times here.

For you to better understand why Jesus called out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", please read all of Pslam 22. Jesus recited the first verse of Psalm 22, a very prophetic psalm with many allusions to the Crucifixion scene of Jesus.

Why do the Christians say that Jesus came with a universal mission when he said that he was sent to the Jews only? He said to the Canaanite woman who asked him to heal her daughter from demon-possession: "I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel" and also said: "It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs", Matthew 15:21-28.

Jesus was testing that faith of the Canaanite woman because He did heal her daughter.
Jesus did have a universal mission as Prophecy says:

Isaiah 49:6
He says:
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

Indeed Jesus brought salvation to the ends of the earth!

[Almonte]

Peace all

We have shown you Phillipians 2:5-11 many times here.

These are not Jesus words


You see, sir, the disciples of Jesus were not eye-witnesses or ear-witnesses to the actual happenings of the previous three days, as vouched for by St. Mark who says that at the most critical juncture in the life of Jesus: "they all forsook him and fled." (Mark 14:50). All the knowledge of the disciples regarding their Master was from hearsay. They had heard that their master was hanged on the Cross; they had heard that he had given up the Ghost; they had heard that he was dead and buried for three days. If one is confronted by a person with such a reputation then the conclusion is inescapable; they must be seeing a ghost. Little wonder these ten brave men were petrified."
"To disabuse their minds from the fear that gripped them, Jesus reasoned with them. He said: 'Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself' To put it in colloquial English, this is how he told them: 'What is wrong with you fellows, can't you see that I am the same person - who walked and talked with you, broke bread with you - flesh and blood in all respects.'
Why do doubts enter your minds? 'Handle me and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones as you see me have.' (Luke 24:39). In other words he is telling them: 'If I have flesh and bones, then I am not a ghost, not a spook and not a spirit!' . in this verse, in basic English, that what the disciples were asked to "handle and see" was not a translated body, not a metamorphosed body and not a resurrected body, because a resurrected body is a spiritualised body. He is telling them in the clearest language humanly possible that he is not what they were thinking. They were thinking that he was a spirit, a resurrected body, one having been brought back from the dead. He is most emphatic that he is not!"


"Jesus debunked their false notion of the resurrection, by saying that at the resurrection: 'neither shall they die any more' (Luke 20:36) meaning that the resurrected persons will be Immortalised. They will not be subject to death any more, no more hanger or thirst, no more fatigue. In short, all the instruments of death will be powerless against the resurrected body. Jesus continues to explain: 'for they (the resurrected bodies) are equal unto the angles,' that is, that they will be Angelised - spiritualised, that they will become spirit-creatures, i.e. Spirits;'and the children of God, for such are the children of the resurrection." (Luke 20:36).

Jesus is Not what they were thinking, that he was not a Spirit, not a Ghost, not a Spook. To assure them further after having offered his hands and feet for inspection and verification that his was a material, physical body, and that all their bewilderment and disbelief was unjustified, he asked his disciples: "Have you here any meat?" (Meaning something to eat). "And they gave him a piece of broiled fish and of a honeycomb, and he took it, and did eat before them." (Luke 24:41-43)

What was Jesus trying to prove by all his demonstrations of wanting his hands and feet to be handled and chewing and masticating broiled fish and honeycomb? These all are a pretense, make-belief, an act or drama?
.
No Resurrection
Jesus is telling you in the most unambiguous language that he is not a spirit - not spiritualised, not a resurrected person, and yet the whole Christian world believes that he was resurrected, i.e. spiritualised. Who is lying, you or him?
"Please tell me as to who is lying? Is it Jesus or a thousand million Christians of the world? Jesus says: "No!" to his being resurrected, and all of you say: "Yes!" Whom are we Muslims to believe, Jesus or his so called disciples? We Muslims would rather believe the Master. Did he not say: "The disciple is not greater than the Master."? (Matthew 10:24)

Now here are the verses discussed put together :
"..Jesus himself stood in their midst, and said unto them, Peace be unto you...But they were terrified, and supposing that they were seeing a spirit... And he said unto them,.. 'Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see; for a spirit has no flesh and bones, as you see me have'... And showed them his hands and feet... And while they yet believed not for joy and wondered, he said unto them, 'Have ye here any meat?'.. And they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and of a honeycomb... And he took it, and did eat before them." (Luke 24:36-43)

[Believer]

Peace Almonte,


Isaiah 53:10
Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

This is what the prophet Isaiah said, Almonte.
See! The Prophets wrote about Jesus's crucifixion!
Jesus was a gulit offering for our sins!
He resurrected after He diedm His days were prolonged!


John 20:24-29
Jesus Appears to Thomas

24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Thomans wouldn't believe that Jesus resurrected, but Jesus appeared to Him and he called Jesus "Lord" and "God" and believed.


Matthew 16:21-23
21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"
23Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Jesus told His disciples what He must do, and thet He would resurrect.
Peter couldn't believe that Jesus would have to be crucified!
But Jesus knew Peter was just a man with human reasoning, and He rebuked him.
You and Islam reflect human reasoning, not the reasoning of God.

[Omega]

Peace all

In the name of Allah

2:255
Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).]
5:17
In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."

Satan sure is utterly trying to exalt himself.

God Bless!

[Almonte]

Peace all

Isaiah 53:10
John 20:24-29
Matthew 16:21-23

I want to know what Jesus said ?
Mt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments Jesus never said anything about dying for our sins


Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.."
How come you say that Jesus died of our sins and that every person is sinful and it is written in the bible:

"Dear children do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous. Just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of devil are: ANYONE WHO DOES NOT DO WHAT IS RIGHT IS NOT A CHILD OF GOD nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1 John(3:7-10)

It is clear that it is meant that Jesus came to destroy evil by showing the people the right way to God, and not by sacrificing himself. Also, the verse stresses that if you do right then you are a child of God i.e. righteous person, else you are a devilish person. I think this interpretation is very fair and it does not contain any personal judgment from my side…


"How great is the love of the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God…….Everyone who sins BREAKS THE LAW; in fact sin is lawlessness. But you know that he APPEARED so that he might take away our sins (please not that the verse said APPEARED not DIED, which means that he came to help us go more towards God) . And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.(meaning those who live their lives after his example)." 1 John (3:1-6)

look what Jesus sadi himself, Jesus did not preach that sins will be taken away by his sacrifice, he only prayed like this: Luke 11:4. "And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us." If sins were going to be taken by his sacrifice why did he pray like this? Sins they go away if God forgive us, not by a sacrifice.



The sign of Jonah: if Jesus says that the ONLY sign is that of Jonah, then how do you explain that it did not come to pass? Jesus did not stay three days and three nights in the tomb (according to the bible). You can count them yourself man...



Jesus can not be God, according to the bible:
"God, the blessed and only ruler, the king of the kings and lord of the lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom NO ONE HAS SEEN OR CAN SEE. To him be honour and might for ever. Amen" (1 timothy 6:15-16).

Indeed people saw the glory of God in Jesus (not God incarnate), through the miracles he did, but this verse proves that Jesus was not God, otherwise Paul could have said that he is. Strangely enough, the old testament says that many people saw God FACE TO FACE, contradicting what Paul said in the above verse. Please look at (Exodus 33:11), (Exodus 24:10), (Genesis 32:30).

Another interesting verse is Acts 2:22 in which Peter said:
"Jesus of Nazareth was A MAN accredited by God (i.e. appointed and chosen) to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him as yourselves know" that is God showed his miracles through Jesus, and this does not mean that Jesus was God, but MAN CHOSEN BY GOD. Most of the verses in which Paul said that Jesus is divine (not even explicitly) were those he sent to the non-Jews who did’t know anything about God anyway.
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?", Did not Jesus describe himself as the son of man tens of times? Even if he was described as Son of God, he personally refered to himslef as son of man.
Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior."
Isaiah 46:9 "I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me," (even Jesus because he said that the Father is greater than he is i.e. not like him)

Deuteronomy 4:35 "the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him," The word LORD here is YAHWA in hebrew which is like Allah in arabic. It is not Father, Son or Holy Ghost.
Deuteronomy 32:39 "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me,"
1 Kings 8:60 "That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else,"

Satan sure is utterly trying to exalt himself.

96 % of the bible is totally fallaciousness!

Chrisitan Women do not follow their "word of God"

1Corinthians 14:33-35 "As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the church. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says (the law which is not important if you are christian??). if they want to enquire about something, they should ask their husbands at home; FOR IT IS DISGRACFUL FOR A WOMAN TO SPEAK IN THE CHURCH". The verse says that women should not speak in church, … and that if they have a question then they have to ask their husband at home (what if they were not married?).

1Corinthians 11:5- "..every woman who prays or prophesises with ther uncovered dishonours her head- it is as just her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or shaved off, she should cover her head"

So every Christian woman is not following her own "God's word" when she walks around with her head uncovered. Some Christians argue that only in church do woman need to put something on their heads, but man!! the Christian missionary will tell you that Christians unlike Muslims pray and worship at anytime!! So why dont they put something on their heads all the time then!!

I hope that this proves to you that Christianity is the laws of men not of God. No wonder no Christian follows the law of his own book, because deep inside they know it is not from God, but only the words of satan

Here is a simple argument that shows how Christians dont think of what they believe in.
If Hitler , after killing 6million jews said that he repented and that he is receiving divine revelation from God, would you believe him? Even more, if he says that the God of jews is sending him revelation, would the jews add what he said to their Torah? Ofcourse not!! this is the most ridiculous thing that can happen!! How come then that Christians accepted what Paul said even that he prosecuted Christians before? He killed many of them and then he said that he is getting visions from Jesus.. Does this make him a truthful person? Concerning the way he died, it was also predicted in the Bible, the Bible says that people who prophecies something wrong are going to be punished in that way.
If I give you a cheque with only my first name on it, would you accept it? Can you obtain a passport with only your first name? How come Christians believe in 4 Gospels written by people you dont know who they are? Where are the Gospels of the 11 disciples? Why do Christians follow Paul rather than the disciples? The supposed comforter of truth came only to the disciples and did not come to Paul. Dod he know all the truth then?[/size]

[Believer]

Jesus WAS Good!!! He was perfect and Good, because He wad God!


Jesus WAS a guilt offering for our sins!
He did die with the wicked and lay in the tomb of a rich man, and was raised!

Isaiah 52:13-53:12

The Suffering and Glory of the Servant
13 See, my servant will act wisely;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him-
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man
and his form marred beyond human likeness-
15 so will he sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.

1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.


Wisdom 2:12-21
12 Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings, Reproaches us for transgressions of the law and charges us with violations of our training.
13 He professes to have knowledge of God and styles himself a child of the LORD.
14 To us he is the censure of our thoughts; merely to see him is a hardship for us,
15 Because his life is not like other men's, and different are his ways.
16 He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father.
17 Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him.
18 For if the just one be the Son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes.
19 With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience.
20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him."
21 These were their thoughts, but they erred; for their wickedness blinded them,

[Almonte]

peace all

Jesus WAS a guilt offering for our sins!
He did die with the wicked and lay in the tomb of a rich man, and was raised!

Jesus(pbuh) didn’t die,and he can’t raise one person from hell

Sunday morning, the first day of the week, when Mary Magdalene went to the tomb of Jesus.
I'm asking UNbliever, why did she go there?
Mark, chapter 16, verse 1. Mark tells us, "She went to anoint Him."
Now, the Hebrew word for anoint is 'massahah' from which we get the
word messiah in Hebrew and masih in Arabic. The root word for both
Arabic and Hebrew is the same. Massahah means to rub, to massage, to
anoint.

I'm asking, do Jews massage dead bodies after three days? And the
answer is no. I say to you Christians, do you massage dead bodies af-
ter three days? The answer is no. We Muslims are the closest
to the Jew in our ceremony of law. Do Muslims massage dead bodies af-
ter three days? The answer is no. Then why would they want to go and
massage a dead, rotten body after three days? Within three hours,
you know that rigor mortis sets in, the hardening of the cells, the
rotting of the body, fermentation from within. In three days' time
the body is rotten from inside. Such a rotting body when you massage
it falls to pieces.

Why would she want to go and massage a dead, rotten body unless
she was looking for a live person? You see, according to your
witnesses, from only reading, she must have seen signs of life in the
limp body as it was being taken down from the cross. She was about
the only woman who, with Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus, had given
the final rites to the body of Jesus. All his other disciples had
forsaken Him and fled. They were not there. So if this woman had seen
signs of life, she was not going to shout, "There, He's alive! He's
alive!" - to invite a sure death.


Jesus is there and He watches his mother. He knows who she is and He
knows why she's there. And He goes up to her. He finds her crying. So
He says, "Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou?" I'm asking,
doesn't He know? Doesn't He know? Why does He ask such a silly
question? I'm telling you, this is not a silly question. . She, supposing Him to be the
gardener - I'm only reading your bible . She supposed
Him to be the gardener - I am asking, why does she suppose He's a gar-
dener? Do resurrected bodies look like gardeners? I say, why
does she suppose He's a gardener? I'm telling you, because He's dis-
guised as a gardener. Why is He disguised as a gardener? I say, be-
cause He's afraid of the Jews. Why is He afraid of the Jews? I say,
because He didn't die. And He didn't conquer death. If He had died,
and if He had conquered death, there's no need to be afraid anymore.
Why not? Because the resurrected body can't die twice. Who says so? I
say the Bible. It says it is ordained unto all men,
once to die, and after that, the judgment. You can't die twice.







The book of jonah

, Jonah was found to be the guilty man. And so they
took him, and they threw him overboard.

Now I'm going to ask you a question. When they threw him overboard.
was he dead or was he alive ?
The man had volunteered. So when they threw him overboard,
Was he dead or was he alive? Alive.

The Jews
say that he was alive, the Christians say he was alive and We Mus-
lims believe in Jonah and we say he was alive

We all agree that he was alive when he was thrown into that raging
sea. And the storm subsided. Perhaps it was a coincidence. A fish
comes and gobbles him. Was he dead or was he alive?
Alive? Alive.


From the fish's belly, according to the book of Jonah, he cries to
God for help. Do dead men pray? No! So he was alive.

Three days and three nights the fish takes
him around the ocean. Dead or alive? Alive. On the third day, walking
on the seashore, I'm asking - dead or alive? Alive. What does Jesus
say? He said, "For as Jonah was." Just like Jonah. "For as Jonah was,
so shall the Son of Man be," referring to Himself. How was Jonah -
dead or alive? Alive. How was Jesus for three days and three nights
in the tomb according to the Christian belief? How was He? Dead or
alive? Dead.

He was dead according to our belief. In other words, He's unlike
Jonah. Can't you see? He says, I shall be like Jonah and you are tell-
ing me - there's one thousand four hundred million Christians of the
world - that He was unlike Jonah. He said, I will be like Jonah, you
say He was unlike Jonah. If I was a Jew, I would not accept Him as my
Messiah. I am told in the Qur'an that Jesus was the Messiah. I accept.
He was one of the mightiest messengers of God - I accept. I believe
in His miraculous birth. I believe that He gave life to the dead by
God's permission. And He healed those born blind and the leper by
God's permission. But if I was a Jew, according to the sign that He
has given, He failed. Jonah is alive - Jesus is dead. They are not
alike. I don't know in what language are you people reading

.

The miracle, if there is one at all, is that you expect a man to be
dead and he's not dead. When Jonah was thrown into the sea, we expect
him to die. He didn't die, so it's a miracle. A fish comes and gobbles
him - he ought to die. He didn't die, so it's a miracle. Three days
and three nights of suffocation and heat in the whale's belly, He
ought to die: he didn't die. It's a miracle, it's a miracle because
you expect a man to die and he didn't die.

We expect Jesus also to die. For what He had been through, if He
died, there is no miracle. There's no sign. If He didn't die, it's a
miracle - can't you understand

So the Christian says, "Christ died for our sins, That makes it
good." So He was crucified on the Good Friday.

when was He crucified - morning or afternoon? So the Christian
says in the afternoon. How long was He on the cross? Some say three
hours, some say six hours.
.
accept. So the Jews were in a hurry to put Him up on the cross.

So, they had a midnight trial. Early in the morning they took Him to
Pilate. Pilate says, "He is not my kettle of fish - take Him to Herod."
Herod says, "I'm not interested - take Him back to Pilate. And hurry,
hurry, hurry." And they held six trials within 12 hours. Six. As if
they had nothing else to do,

They succeeded in putting Him up on the cross.
According to your witnesses. But as much as they were in a
hurry to put Him up, they were in a hurry to bring Him down. You know
why? Because at sunset on Friday, at six o'clock, the Sabbath starts.
You see, the Jews count the days, night and day, night and day. We
Muslims count our days, night and day, night and day. Not day and night.
We count night and day. Six o'clock, our day begins in the evening.

So, before sunset, the body must come down because they were told in
the book of Deuteronomy that they must see to it that nobody is hanging
on the tree on the Sabbath day. "That thy land be not defiled which the
Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance." So quickly, quickly, they
brought the body down and they gave Him a burial bath, and they put a
hundred pounds of medicine around Him. And they put Him into the
sepulchre. Not a grave - a sepulchre. A big, roomy chamber above ground.
So it's already evening. From three o'clock in the afternoon, for
whatever you do, the details are given in Josh's book. Burial baths
normally take more than an hour. You read the details about how the Jew
give a burial bath to the dead. That takes more than an hour itself. But
let's say they succeeded in doing all these things in a hurry, hurry. You
know they were in a hurry. Six trials in 12 hours. Now they put Him into
the sepulchre.

By the time they put Him in, it's already evening
Friday night He's supposed to be in the grave.
Saturday day, He still is supposed to be in the grave.
Saturday night, He still is supposed to be in the grave. But
Sunday morning, the first day of the week, when Mary Magdalene goes to
the tomb, the tomb was empty.

That's what your witnesses say. I am asking - how many days and how
many nights
The Bible doesn't say actually when He came out.
He could have come out Friday night. The Bible doesn't say how He came.
So, Friday night, Saturday day, Saturday night. I'm asking, how many
days and how many nights?

Two nights and
a day. Look at this. Is it the same as He said, for as Jonah was three
days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three
nights? Three and three. this: two and one. Please tell me now
it means the same thing.

I want to know what you are reading. I want to know what you are
reading in your own book! The man is telling you that what is going to
happen will be like Jonah. And the sign of Jonah is a miracle. And the
only miracle you can attribute to this man, Jonah, is that we expected
him to die and he didn't die. Jesus - we expect Him also to die. If He
died, it is not a sign. If He didn't die, it is a sign.

. Can you see, the
people have been programmed. Christians are brainwashed.
The holy Quran


2:18
Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).

2:18
Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).




4:157
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
4:158
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

2:18
Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).


2:18
Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).

[Believer]

Jesus(pbuh) didn’t die,and he can’t raise one person from hell

Well, He did! Better believe!

Sunday morning, the first day of the week, when Mary Magdalene went to the tomb of Jesus.
I'm asking UNbliever, why did she go there?
Mark, chapter 16, verse 1. Mark tells us, "She went to anoint Him."
Now, the Hebrew word for anoint is 'massahah' from which we get the
word messiah in Hebrew and masih in Arabic. The root word for both
Arabic and Hebrew is the same. Massahah means to rub, to massage, to
anoint.

I'm asking, do Jews massage dead bodies after three days? And the
answer is no. I say to you Christians, do you massage dead bodies af-
ter three days? The answer is no. We Muslims are the closest
to the Jew in our ceremony of law. Do Muslims massage dead bodies af-
ter three days? The answer is no. Then why would they want to go and
massage a dead, rotten body after three days? Within three hours,
you know that rigor mortis sets in, the hardening of the cells, the
rotting of the body, fermentation from within. In three days' time
the body is rotten from inside. Such a rotting body when you massage
it falls to pieces.

You are not a Jew for one thing, and a body doesn't fall to rot in a cold tomb after 2 days!

Interesting how the Gospels reveal women to be the first witnesses!!!
Women weren't considered valid witnesses in Jewish society!

Can you see, the
people have been programmed. Christians are brainwashed.

Look at my post again!
The Holy Prophets stand as a testament to Jesus Christ!
Thet spoke about the crucifixion!
It is by what the Holy Prophets say, that I am a Believer!
Jesus fulfilled what was written, and if you don't like it, them you follow your twisted lies instead!

Wisdom 2:18
For if the just one be the Son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes.

Psalm 22:7-8
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8 "He trusts in the LORD ;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

Matthew 27:39-43
39Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!" 41In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42"He saved others," they said, "but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.' "

The EXACT WORDS of what the Pharisees and people said at Jesus on the cross are recorded, EXACT WORDS RECORDED, in the Writings of the Holy Prophets!!!!!

[Almonte]

You don't listen to me, Almonte.
I Believer will now delete your extraneous spam posts unless you can answer to what I say.
Here, I give you astonishing prophecies confirming the crucifixion.
What do you think about them?

[webmaster]

Jesus said : All power is given unto me Mt 28:18i
18 And Yahshua came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Jesus said : I can of mine own self do nothing: Joh 5:30
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Jesus said : my Father is greater than I. Joh 14:28
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


Jesus said : I with the finger of God cast out devils Lu 11:20
20 But if I with the finger of Elohim cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of Elohim is come upon you.


Jesus said : I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, Mt 12:28
28 But if I cast out devils by the Presense of Elohim, then the kingdom of Elohim is come unto you.


Jesus said : My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all Joh 10:29
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.


How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman Job 25:4
4 How then can man be justified with Elohim? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?


my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God.” Jesus’ reference to God as “my Father and your Father” John 20:17
17 Yahshua saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my Elohim, and your Elohim.


Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him Ac 2:22
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Yahweh shall be saved.
Joel 2:32

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Yahshua of Nazareth, a man approved of Elohim among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which Elohim did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of Elohim, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom Elohim hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw Yahweh always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Ps 16:8

26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Ps 16:9

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ps 16:10

28
Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Ps 16:11

29
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that Elohim had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Ps 132:11 2 Sam 7:12,13

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Ps 16:10

32 This Yahshua hath Elohim raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of Elohim exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy ((Spirit,Presense of Elohim)), he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, Yahweh said unto my Yahweh, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Ps 110:1 Matt 22:44 Luke 20:42 1 Cor 15:25 Heb 1:13

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that Elohim hath made the same Yahshua, whom ye have crucified, both Yahweh and Christ.


Jesus is crying for Help, shouting "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me Matthew 27:45 and Mark 15:33
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour Yahshua cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My Elohim, my Elohim, why hast thou forsaken me?
Ps 22:1 Mark 15:34

33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

34 And at the ninth hour Yahshua cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My Elohim, my Elohim, why hast thou forsaken me?
Ps 22:1 Matt 27:46

1 My Elohim, my Elohim, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Matt 27:46 Mark 15:34

2 O my Elohim, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

3
But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.

5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

8 He trusted on Yahweh that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my Elohim from my mother's belly.

11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Zech 12:10 John 19:37

17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Matt 27:35 John 19:24

19 But be not thou far from me, O Yahweh: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Heb 2:12

23 Ye that fear Yahweh, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.

26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise Yahweh that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto Yahweh: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28 For the kingdom is Yahweh's: and he is the governor among the nations.






Christ Jesus the Yahweh

[Bushmaster]

"Please tell me as to who is lying? Is it Jesus or you christians

Neither, it is Muhammad.

[Almonte]

Look at my post again!
The Holy Prophets stand as a testament to Jesus Christ!
Thet spoke about the crucifixion

You mean Cruci-Fiction





We must first of all know that the entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption about Jesus

Today's Books and Gospels' authors of the Bible are UNKNOWN. See the comments that prove that from the Theologians and Historians of the NIV Bible

What is wrong with you folk?" Jesus is telling you in the most unambiguous language that he is not a spirit - not spiritualised, not a resurrected person, and yet the whole Christian world believes that he was resurrected, i.e. spiritualised. Who is lying, you or him? How is it possible that you, each and every Christian, are reading your Bible in your own language and yet each and every groups is made to understand the exact opposite of what they are reading?
The bible , each and every one, in his own language, and are trained to understand the opposite of what is written. How have you been brainwashed, or rather, how have you been "Programmed,"
"Please tell me as to who is lying? Is it Jesus or you christians



The message of Jesus: He says, "Verily, verily, I say
unto you, except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the
scribes and the pharisees, you shall by no means enter the kingdom of
heaven." There's no heaven for you. This is what He says; these are His
words. And what is happening is, you are not contradicting His words.

He didn't say it's the blood, but your righteousness, You must be
better than the Jews,

[Alpha]

Please tell me as to who is lying? Is it Jesus or you christians

Most of the Muslims of this forum are the liars. No one really knows whether or not the angel Gabriel spoke to Muhammed. Especially since the New Testament forewarns that even if an angel was to preach a different gospel, let him be accursed. Again, this is a forewarning coming 500 years before Islam. And doesn't your Qu'ran teach that unbelievers do not take heed to forewarnings? (2:6). It contradicts itself. And people strive at a gnat and swallow a camel. More than the authors, it is about the message which comes from God. The authors can be supported anyway through external and internal evidence found in archaeological study. But ultimately one has to accept this by faith the same way you Muslims have to accept the Qu'ran by faith. But the Christian faith is one based on evidence.

We must first of all know that the entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption about Jesus

This is funny, especially with all the evidence which supports that it was never corrupted. Seriously though, let's pay attention to what I am now about to discuss, and you bought it up Almonte:

The message of Jesus: He says, "Verily, verily, I say
unto you, except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the
scribes and the pharisees, you shall by no means enter the kingdom of
heaven." There's no heaven for you. This is what He says; these are His
words. And what is happening is, you are not contradicting His words.

He didn't say it's the blood, but your righteousness, You must be
better than the Jews,

What did Jesus mean when He said that? For us to interpret that passage, let's see whatelse Christ says instead of taking passages out of context:

Christ said it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven, then Christ says our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees. Christ is saying that man cannot enter heaven by their own riches and glory or by their own righeousness. That's why when His desciples after hearing these things which made it impossible for man to enter into heaven asked Him "Who then can be saved?" (Matthew 19:25). Christ responded by saying, "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26). Therefore, we cannot enter into heaven by our own riches, glory, or righteousness. But we need a foreign righeousness which is in Jesus Christ. And Christ DOES teach His death and resurrection for the sins of those who follow Him:

John 3:14-17, John 12:32, Matthew 26:2, Luke 24:7, etc, etc, etc.

Christ even called His own desciple "Satan" for denying His death: Matthew 16:21-23, Mark 8:31-33. What more will He call Muslims?

[Almonte]

Christ responded by saying, "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26).

PAY ATTENTION






Judges 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.



So God could not help Judah to drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.



According to the Bible Jesus christ is absolutely attributable to bad judgment

If Jesus christ (pbuh) make too many mistakes in the BIble,so There's no heaven for christians


The holy Quran

85:12

Truly strong is the Grip (and Power) of thy Lord.

85:13

It is He Who creates from the very beginning, and He can restore (life).

85:14

And He is the Oft-Forgiving, Full of Loving-Kindness,

85:15

Lord of the Throne of Glory,

85:16
Doer (without let) of all that He intends.

[Omega]

Look at my post again!
The Holy Prophets stand as a testament to Jesus Christ!
Thet spoke about the crucifixion

You mean Cruci-Fiction





We must first of all know that the entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption about Jesus

Today's Books and Gospels' authors of the Bible are UNKNOWN. See the comments that prove that from the Theologians and Historians of the NIV Bible

What is wrong with you folk?" Jesus is telling you in the most unambiguous language that he is not a spirit - not spiritualised, not a resurrected person, and yet the whole Christian world believes that he was resurrected, i.e. spiritualised. Who is lying, you or him? How is it possible that you, each and every Christian, are reading your Bible in your own language and yet each and every groups is made to understand the exact opposite of what they are reading?
The bible , each and every one, in his own language, and are trained to understand the opposite of what is written. How have you been brainwashed, or rather, how have you been "Programmed,"
"Please tell me as to who is lying? Is it Jesus or you christians



The message of Jesus: He says, "Verily, verily, I say
unto you, except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the
scribes and the pharisees, you shall by no means enter the kingdom of
heaven." There's no heaven for you. This is what He says; these are His
words. And what is happening is, you are not contradicting His words.

He didn't say it's the blood, but your righteousness, You must be
better than the Jews,

It is written:
Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. Acts 10:40,41

It is also written:Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Romans 5:9

The wisdom of man is a joke to the Wisdom of God.

The Bible clearly points out the warnings which were to lie ahead, all apostles and especially Jesus warned believers in advance so they won't be taken captive by the Wicked One and His fallen flunkies.

No matter how wise you think you are in your own eyes or in the False god who EXALTS himself above all which is called God{Jesus}.

And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

[Omega]

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. Daniel 12:10

[Alpha]

Judges 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

So God could not help Judah to drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

The passage does not say God could not drive out the inhabitants because they had chariots of iron, it is referring to Judah.

Judah couldn't drive out the inhabitants of the valley because they saw the people with chariots of iron. Judah was afraid and did not trust the Lord, so God forsook them. Similar to when Moses sent spies to check out the promised land, and some of the spies who were afraid of the inhabitants of the land were killed (Numbers 14) because of their lack of faith in their God.

According to the Bible Jesus christ is absolutely attributable to bad judgment

If Jesus christ (pbuh) make too many mistakes in the BIble,so There's no heaven for christians

Christ made no mistakes.

[Almonte]

peace believe

Look at my post again!
The Holy Prophets stand as a testament to Jesus Christ!
Thet spoke about the crucifixion!
It is by what the Holy Prophets say, that I am a Believer!
Jesus fulfilled what was written, and if you don't like it, them you follow your twisted lies instead!

Sin and crucifixion of Jesus was not part of Jesus' teaching




This is the Doctrine of Atonement, which was accepted by the Church three or four centuries after Jesus left the earth. It contradicts the Bible, as the following passages show:

Deuteronomy 24:16: "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Jeremiah 31:30: "But every one shall die for his own iniquity .

Ezekiel 18:20: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Adam and Eve were responsible for their own sin, which was forgiven by Allah according to the Holy Quran


Jesus himself said


Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

I Corinthians 3:8. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one; and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labou


Want me to prove that children are born without sin?


Matthew 19:14. But Jesus said: 'Suffer not little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me, for of such is the kingdom of heaven

everybody is born without sin and all children belong to the kingdom of heaven.

Why do you believe in the resurrection if Paul himself, who never saw Jesus alive, admitted that this was his gospel?

[Bushmaster]

peace believe

It was UNBeliever a day ago, now he is believer??? What a hypocrite you are!

[Believer]

Psalm 22:16-18
16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

This man's hands and feet were pierced, Almonte!
Evil people surround him!
He can count his bones, as they are all out of joint as if he's hanging off a cross or something.
People divide his garments among themselves!

Now here we see a true depiction of he crucifixion scene of Jesus!
No pagan myth as it is written in a Psalm of David.
Now will this not make a believer out of you, Almonte?


It was the Will of God that Jesus Christ is a guilt offering for ours sins! This is not a made up or added doctrine!

Isaiah 53:10-11
10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

[Omega]

Sin and crucifixion of Jesus was not part of Jesus' teaching

It is written:Matthew 20:19 - And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

It is written:Matthew 23:34 - Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

It is written:Matthew 26:2 - Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

It is written:Matthew 27:22 - Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.

It is written:Matthew 27:23 - And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.

It is written:Matthew 27:26 - Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

It is written:Matthew 27:31 - And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.

It is written:Matthew 27:35 - And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

There is too many of them, if i were to paste them all it still would not make a difference, either you believe or you don't.

Crucifixion and Crucify=53 times on NT

Thanks Bible.com

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:3,4

God Bless!

[Alpha]

I am going to lock this topic for the following reason:

Imagine having a debate with someone and they make their argument and you refute their argument. Then they make the same argument the second time around ignoring your initial rebuttal. Well, that someone is Almonte. First he takes biblical passages out of context and says Christ does not teach His crucifixion. Biblical passages were given to refute his claim. The second time, Almonte again takes biblical passages out of context and makes the same exact argument, and again biblical passages were given to refute his claim. It has become evident that Almonte is not here to learn. Not only that, but he copies and pastes without giving the sources. Thereofore I am going to warn Almonte that he is on a short leash when it comes to being a member of this forum.

Deuteronomy 24:16: "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

What does this have to do with your argument that Christ did not die for our sins? We are still going to die (unless you are alive when Christ returns) for our sins anyway, but Christ's death for our sins deals with the life to come. Because of Christ we can spend an eternity in heaven. Reject His sacrifice and you will not be in heaven.

Jeremiah 31:30: "But every one shall die for his own iniquity.

There are many Christians who have died because of their iniquity, because sin brings death (that is the reason we die). But thanks to Christ those Christians will be resurrected on the last day and will be with Him in heaven for eternity.

Ezekiel 18:20: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Adam and Eve were responsible for their own sin, which was forgiven by Allah according to the Holy Quran

Every human being is responsible for their own sin and dies because of their own sin. Every man reaps what they sow. But by the grace of God, He sent His only begotten Son to die for the sins of those who follows Him. My earthly father did not die for my sins, and when my father sins, I ultimately will not be punished for it, and when I sin, my father will not ultimately be punished for it. We bear our own iniquities.

Jesus himself said

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

This deals with judging a man in terms of his sins. If I got arreseted for petty theft and I see on the news that someone got arrested for robbing a bank and I say in my heart "What a fool that man(who robbed the bank) is" then I am being a hypocrite. That is the kind of judgement we should refrain from. And we should also refrain from the judgement of someone's eternal existance (heaven or hell) which only God judges.

I Corinthians 3:8. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one; and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labou

Yes, everyone in heaven shall receive their own reward according to what they did in their life and everyone in hell will receive their punishment according to what they did in their life. But you cannot get into heaven unless you accept Christ as your Saviour. That's why 1 Corinthians 3:15 also says some will be saved as if they just escaped a fire (meaning they accepted Christ as their Saviour, but did not produce much fruit in their life).

Want me to prove that children are born without sin?

Matthew 19:14. But Jesus said: 'Suffer not little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me, for of such is the kingdom of heaven

everybody is born without sin and all children belong to the kingdom of heaven.

Why do you believe in the resurrection if Paul himself, who never saw Jesus alive, admitted that this was his gospel?

Christ did not say children are born without sin. Yes children are innocent because of their ignorance, but they have a sinful nature. When they don't get what they want they start crying. And as they grow older, sin continues until they are at an age of accountability. Like Psalm 51:5 says Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Why do you think Jesus was born of a virgin?--to not have the inheritance of a sinful nature. Also, in the book of Acts, Paul does meet the resurrected Christ. How do you think Paul was converted? So Paul does not teach his own gospel, but that of Jesus Christ.