Some Contraversies Of The Crucifixion Discussed...

[Scorpion]

I want do discuss some of the followng information in this topic regarding the Sufferer of Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, OT Prophecies of the Crucifixion, Jesus's bones and why Jesus could not have been just a prophet/messenger.

Jesus's Bones:

Psalm 22 verse 17 and Psalm 34:20 says -

"He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken."

This prophecy was fulfilled. John 19:32-33 Says -

"Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. 33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:"

The Roman soldiers did NOT break Jesus's bones, reason being is because Jesus already Died. How that quick? Jesus gave up his Spirit if you remember. Think about this, how can a man who has the power to give up his own Spirit and show authority of the Supernatural, be just a messenger? He cant.

The Roman soldier's broken the bones of the two theives that were on either side of Jesus during the crucifixion. Basically whenever somebody was crucified, if they did not die quick enough, the Soldiers would break their legs so that the weight of the person's body would not be supported by their legs, and thus hang, resulting in your internal parts of your body to be crushed, such as the Ribs/Lungs.

This did not happen to Jesus, it was already Prophecied was before in the Old Testament. And also even though there may have been a chance that a bone may have broken during the Crucifixion or nailing of the hands and feet is because God supernaturally protected Jesus's bones, remember ... It was already Propecied in the Old Testament, so there was no way in Heaven or Earth God would let this Prophecy fail. So God had to make sure he would protect Jesus's bones.

===============================================

Contraversary Of Isaiah 53...

Isaiah 53:9 States - "And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth"

The reason Muslims dont like the KJV and will find excuses of Corruption as per usual is because its a great translation. The above scripture uses the word DEATH clearly. No other word.

Regardless of what other versions say, the KJV is correct. I will post some historical information soon supporting the KJV.

See below ...

New American Standard Bible ...

Yet He was with a rich R2219 man in His death

American Standard Version...

and with a rich man in his death

Revised Standard Version...

and with a rich man in his death

Isaiah 53:9 uses the word Death. Perioid. So to those using other translations other than KJV, please do not debate about this issue. If you would like to debate, first use the KJV. If you dont like it, than dont debate at all.

========= Ressurection Prophecied In Old Testament ==========

Firstly ... People say the Ressurrection is not Mentioned in the Old Testament. Also ... God is not going to give revelations to those who do not want to know the truth and to those who reject the crucifixion. So for a start, if you're an unbeleiver, you wont find any Prophecies of the Resurrection of Jesus.

Firstly ... The Sign on Jonah that Jesus mentioned was a prophecy of the Resurrection. I've covered this one of the threads in the forum. The Sign of Jonah DID prophecy Jesus's resurrection.

The claim that there has been no Prophecy in the Old Testament of Jesus's resurrection is false. Jonah's sign was a prophecy, and Jesus even said about Jonah's sign.

===============================================

Isaiah 53 Continued...

firstly i want to look at Isaiah 52:14 which says...

As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men

Firstly ... You were not there to witness this event, so for people who make the assumption this did not happen, is rubbish.

Secondly ... Jesus before being crucified was given 39 lashes on his body. This whip was made from Chunks of bone and metal that would tear a person's flesh off from just one whip alone.

Third...Jesus was made to wear a Crown of THORNS. Imagine the blood that would run off his head and onto his face.

Jesus skin had been torn right off His bones. Perhaps this was from the Cat-o-nine-tails (a whip with nine strands of leather, each with a piece of glass, rock or jagged metal at the end). Most of the pictures of Jesus hanging on the cross show a little blood but this is not accurate. Jesus must have been bathed in blood from head to toe. The Roman soldiers ripped Jesus beard out, hit Him over he head repeatedly with a long staff to drive in the crown of sharp thorns, physically beat Him with their fists, stripped Him naked, spit upon Him, scourged Him with a whip—Jesus had been abused beyond recognition. Oh yes my friend, Jesus paid a great price for your salvation. I bid you please do not say “no” to Jesus.

Contraversary of Isaiah 53:11 Says -

He shall see of the TRAVAIL of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities

To those that use different translations and get the word "light" in this scripture, this is wrong. The KJV Bible does NOT use the word light. So for people who start twisting this scripture talking about Jesus seeing Light of Heaven or whatever, is completely false. Jesus wasn't raised to Heaven as Muslims claim. This is false.

Also ... Jesus HIMSELF prophecied about his DEATH AND RESURRECTION in the New Testament BEFORE the Crucifixion. If any of you have a problem with this, please take your complaints to God, not to anybody else.

Also ... The Jews did NOT steal Jesus's body. I will cover more DETAILED information in this thread that want to know the truth of why this would not be possible.

Now ... Here are choices you are going to have to make about Jesus ...

1. Jesus is a liar, a lunatic, a false prophet and so are all of the Old Testament prophets who prophecied about Jesus

or

2. Jesus is who he claimed to be ... God

Some people say ... Well, Jesus could alternatively be just a prophet. Well this is false and here's why ...

John 14:6 Says - "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"

Jeuss clearly said ... I AM THE WAY and that no man comes to the Father but by HIM. So ... Who is this man that you cannot go into heaven except THROUGH HIM?

Can a messenger possibly make such a bold claim that you cannot get into Heaven except through him? Can an ordinary person be powerful enough to allow entrance into Heaven? NO.

Jesus also stated that he who has seen him, has seen the Father. Well ... thats a rather bold claim to make for a messenger isn't it?

John 14:9 Goes onto say ...

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen ME hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Also ... Jesus said that he is ONE with the Father.


"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"
Gal. 4:16


Jesus' Own Claim to be the Son of God
Brings Muslim to Christ




Issue Date: July/August 2000


By David Daniels

You love Muslim people, and you want to witness to them. But when you talk to them about Jesus, they say, "Jesus was not God's Son! He was just another one of the prophets." In fact, they are likely to challenge you with the question: "Where did Jesus ever claim to be God's Son?"

The question is vital, because they are taught that Jesus was a prophet of God, and that prophets do not lie. Where did Jesus Himself make the claim to be God's Son?

The answer is right there, in God's preserved words. Don't try to use a corrupt modern version, it will let you down.

In John 10:36, Jesus said, "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

Obviously, Jesus was being accused of blasphemy for claiming to be God's Son. Where did He say it? In the previous chapter, John 9:35-38, where Jesus had just healed the man born blind, and the Pharisees cast the healed man out of the synagogue.

"Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshiped him."

===============================================

I will discuss any ONE scripture or part of the crucifixion in this thread one at a time.

Thank you for your time.
Kind Regards,
Scorpz.

[adampastor]

Now ... Here are choices you are going to have to make about Jesus ...

1. Jesus is a liar, a lunatic, a false prophet and so are all of the Old Testament prophets who prophecied about Jesus

or

2. Jesus is who he claimed to be ... God

Greetings Scorpion.
Looking at the above choices that you presented ...
I definitely do NOT believe that Jesus is either a liar or a lunatic or a false prophet.
However, I am puzzled by No. 2. My question is when & where did Jesus ever claim to be ... God???
Book(s), Chapter(s), and Verse(s) please!

I know he definitely claimed to be the Messiah, the Son of the Living GOD, but where did he ever claimed to be GOD?

[Omega]

Now ... Here are choices you are going to have to make about Jesus ...

1. Jesus is a liar, a lunatic, a false prophet and so are all of the Old Testament prophets who prophecied about Jesus

or

2. Jesus is who he claimed to be ... God

Greetings Scorpion.
Looking at the above choices that you presented ...
I definitely do NOT believe that Jesus is either a liar or a lunatic or a false prophet.
However, I am puzzled by No. 2. My question is when & where did Jesus ever claim to be ... God???
Book(s), Chapter(s), and Verse(s) please!

I know he definitely claimed to be the Messiah, the Son of the Living GOD, but where did he ever claimed to be GOD?

Ask the Holy Ghost! He it is that will guide you into all Truth!

The SON has revealed God unlike the prophets of old who only spoke by the spirit what God hath commanded.

God is Spirit, and to know one who is not seen can only be known and understood by His words, and the Word was made flesh.

And if the Spirit that led the prophets now dwells in you, easily it is to understand God and to have a personal relationship with Him through Jesus.

The Devil comes to fill you with rocks, fill yourself with soil.

God Bless!

[Omega]

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 1 Corinthians 15:45-48

[Omega]

OK

[adampastor]

OK?
Not at all! Besides the fact that you are not 'Scorpion' you haven't even answered my question!!
You quoted 1 Cor 15:45-48 however ...
1) These are not a quotation of a discourse/speech by Jesus &
2) These verses say nothing about Jesus claiming to be GOD

I tell you what ... I will be patient and await for Scorpion to answer my question, seeing that you couldn't do so.

Adam Pastor

[Scorpion]

Hi adam,

Nice to meet you!

Ok great question, this is mostly always commonly asked....

In John 10:36, Jesus said, "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

Jesus was being accused of Blasphemy, of what? of Claiming to be the Son Of God ... In the previous chapter, John 9:35-38, where Jesus had just healed the man born blind, and the Pharisees cast the healed man out of the synagogue.

"Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshiped him."

Only God can receive worship and offer forgiveness of sins.

Jesus called himself "I am" a direct reference to God's statement to Moses from the burning bush:

And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" (Exodus 3:14)

"Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." (John 8:58)

It is clear from the context that this is just exactly how Jesus meant his statement. It is also clear that His hearers took this statement as a claim to be God because they immediately picked up stones to stone Him. (Stoning was the penalty under Jewish law for blasphemy against the name of God (Exodus 24:11-16)

In John 8:58 we see that Jesus says ... BEFORE Abraham was ... I AM, meaning .... Jesus was, meaning he existed before Abraham basically. Now ... how can a person exist before Abraham?

Jesus is God ... he is one of the persons of the Trinity ... we see many times Jesus talking about him being equal to Father God. Jesus said that I and the Father are ONE, and also that nobody can get to the Father but except through him. Thats quite a rather bold claim to make.

Jesus's claims of God in the Gospel seem to be cloaked with Jewish thought forms and there for those who understand, to understand. This is one of the reason's why Jesus didn't openly just state "I am God" ... He wants us to figure it out.

Now think about this, if Jesus started claiming I am God I am God, for one that sounds kinda boasting like, and Jesus humbeled himself down alot just like any other human during his lifetime. If Jesus started openly claiming he is God, people would straight away try to kill him for blasphemy and would ruin his ministry. Rather what Jesus did, is ... He DEMONSTRATED his Godliness and his power and authority over both the Spiritual and the Physical world...

For example, in Luke 5, when Jesus healed the paralytic, he said to him, "your sins are forgiven." Most of us think nothing of that. But the Jewish leaders who heard it had a strong reaction: They called his words blasphemy (Luke 5:20-21). Why? Because they implied a pardon not just for ordinary man-to-man offenses, but for offenses committed against God, a category of offense only God himself has the authority to forgive. This was not a misunderstanding: Jesus pressed the point, saying, "'But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,' he said to the paralytic, 'I say to you, get up, and when you have picked up your mat, go to your home" (5:24). For the "Son of Man" to have the authority to forgive sins means that the Son of Man is God! Jesus' use of the title "Son of Man," far from referring to his humanity, confirms his divinity, that he is the exalted Messianic figure riding on the clouds of heaven in Daniel 7:13. It was not only the miracle that amazed the people (5:26). It was Jesus' incredible claim to be God--a claim supported by the miracle that followed!



In Nazareth, his initially enthusiastic reception quickly turned into a murderous rage as a result of Jesus' sermon in the synagogue. Why? On the surface, there's nothing particularly upsetting about it (Luke 4:23-27). He simply observes that in the time of Elijah, many widows in Israel were not helped by him, and in the time of Elisha many lepers were not healed. But at the end of the sermon, they were ready to kill him (4:28-29)! What did he say that upset them so much? His listeners were quite familiar with events in the lives of these two prophets. Much of their ministry had taken place in the countryside around them. That's why they also understood Jesus' deeper meaning: that the reason God did not do miracles of this kind through these prophets was because of the sin and rebellion of the nation. This was in the time of Ahab and Jezebel, when they led the nation to worship false gods. When Jesus compared his own lack of miracles in Nazareth with these times, he was in effect judging the hearts of the people. And by judging them, he made himself equal to God. As even the New Testament teaches, "There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to save and to destroy: but who are you that judges his neighbor?" (James 4:12). The people of Nazareth did not accept that Jesus was God, so his words were a blasphemy to them, worthy of death. That's why they marched him out of town to throw him off the cliff. They clearly understood that he was claiming to be God.

The same is true of the other places where Jesus pronounces judgment: "Woe to you, Chorazin, woe to you, Bethsaida: for if the deeds of power that took place in you had taken place in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say to you, it will be more bearable in the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you" (Matt. 11:21,22). Jesus does not speak here as an Old Testament prophet, in the name of the Lord. Rather, he says "I say to you," relying on none other than his own authority. Here too, Jesus claims to be God.

The ultimate expression of this is in Matthew 25, which describes the judgment of Messiah when he comes, seated on his throne of glory. This teaching of Jesus describes the Son of Man judging in his own authority, with the ability to condemn the wicked to hell (25:41). This is a power only God has. For Jesus to claim it is a claim to be God.

Perhaps the most dramatic of these claims took place on the Sea of Galilee, when the disciples were struggling in their boat against a strong westerly wind. Jesus suddenly appeared, walking on the water (Matt. 14:24,25). Mark adds the detail that he was going to pass by them (Mark 6:48). This is a hint to Job 9, which tells of the majesty of God: "The one who alone stretches out the heavens and treads on the heights of the sea…. See--he passes by me, and I do not see; he goes by, and I do not discern him" (Job 9:8,11). If Jesus had walked past, they would never have known who he was. But they cried out in fear, which prompted Jesus to turn and talk with them (Matt. 14:26,27). In the Greek of all three gospels, he says not, "it is I" as it is usually translated, but literally "I am." This is not a lapse in grammar: it's a deliberate hint to the personal name of God: "I am that I am" (Ex. 3:14). What is the reaction of the disciples to all of this? They "worshipped" him, a word which means literally to prostrate yourself, face to the ground, in worship (14:33). It's not only Jesus' miracle that impressed them--it was his claim to be God, backed up by the miracle of walking on the sea and calming the wind, that made them fall down in worship. They may not have understood how God had become a man. But they saw the result with their own eyes.



By the way, they did not then and never could have, as Jews, believed that Jesus was a god, different than the one true God. For them, there was only one God, and it was that one God that somehow stood before them in human flesh. For this manifestation of God they had a name--the Son of God; for it was clear that the world went on, the stars continued to shine, and God continued to rule the universe as he always had before. God had not vacated heaven to appear before them. But he had sent an "extension" of himself: his Word, his arm, his face, his glory, his likeness, his salvation--whichever of the many Biblical names used to describe this phenomenon you like; a personal manifestation of his presence that was sent to earth to speak directly with us. That personal manifestation, in the flesh, is Jesus.

But if God is real, why wouldn't he come to visit? Not in the fullness of his power, of course, which would destroy us (Ex. 33:20); but in the appearance of a man to lead us back to himself. The disciples saw him with their own eyes, and were convinced. What about you?

Read the following interesting scriptures...

"I've heard that Jesus never actually claimed He was God."

John 14:7-10 [7] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." [8] Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." [9] Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? [10] Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

John 10:37-38 [37] Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38] But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, `I am the Son of God.'"

John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.


"When Jesus said 'I and the Father are one' didn't He just mean they are of one accord, they are merely like-minded?"

Taken alone, statements such as "I and the Father are one." and "The Father is in me, and I am in the Father." could mean simply that Jesus agrees with Jehovah. But in the overall context of the Bible this cannot be:

John 10:31-33 [31] Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, [32] but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" [33] "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 17:10 [Speaking to the Father] All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

Note: Jesus never claimed to be Jehovah. He claimed to be one "person" of the Trinity. (The term "person" refers to human beings and, therefore does not totally accurately describe the nature of these divine "persons." The late Dr. Walter Martin once described "God" as a being with "three centers of consciousness.")


Note: "Son of Man" was a term referring to the expected Messiah.

Mark 14:61b-62 [61b] Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" [62] "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Luke 22:66-70 [66] At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. [67] "If you are the Christ, " they said, "tell us." Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me, [68] and if I asked you, you would not answer. [69] But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God." [70] They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

Daniel 7:13-14 [13] "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. [14] He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.


"If Jesus claimed He was God, why did He say the Father is greater?"

John 14:28 "You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Sadly, the original Greek text was mistranslated centuries ago and the mistranslation has become "tradition".

John 14:28 [Latin Vulgate] "audistis quia ego dixi vobis vado et venio ad vos si diligeretis me gauderetis utique quia vado ad Patrem quia Pater maior me est

The Latin word maior shown here is the source of the English words "major" and "majority".


In the original Greek, the word used for "greater" means more blessed, not greater in nature.

It's like saying "The President is greater than the Vice President."

On the word translated "greater"

Strong's Greek Concordance Number: 3107

Romanized spelling: makarios

Pronounciation: mak-AR-ee-os

Meaning: supremely blest; by extension, fortunate, well off: -- blessed, happy(-ier)



Jesus clearly and repeatedly indicated that He is not the one who "calls the shots":

John 14:31 the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

John 7:16 Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me."

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me."

John 17:3-12 [3] Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. [4] I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. [5] And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. [6] I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. [7] Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. [8] For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. [9] I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. [10] All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. [11] I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one. [12] While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Please through this post several times if you have to, and please let me know your opinions.

Thanks very much for your question, atleast somebody wants to know the truth

God Bless you.
Scorpz.

[Omega]

OK?
Not at all! Besides the fact that you are not 'Scorpion' you haven't even answered my question!!
You quoted 1 Cor 15:45-48 however ...
1) These are not a quotation of a discourse/speech by Jesus &
2) These verses saying nothing about Jesus claiming to be GOD

I tell you what ... I will be patient and await for Scorpion to answer my question, seeing that you couldn't do so.

Adam Pastor

Hmmm... where did the forum rules say that I must be Scorpion to answer your posts?

Take a look at the other threads and see if they apply there. Your answer is Simple, & easily understood in scripture, but a blocked heart and a closed mind always leads to misunderstanding.

You can't even seem to obey simple instructions my friend, so I would not doubt it if you would not understand Scorpions response to your post natural man.

P.S i read Scorpions post, and it makes a lot of sense to me, how bout you? Understand yet?


God Bless!

[adampastor]

Greetings Omega
It appears that I started on the wrong foot with you!
I apologize! I confess the tone of my post could have been a lot better! Please accept my apology.

Greetings Scorpion.
Thanks for your reply.
I will look over it.
However, please note: I will be concentrating on your assertion that Jesus claimed to be Almighty God.

On first impressions, ...
1) John 10:36 ... Jesus clearly claims to be the Son of GOD
2) John 8:58 ... you appear to make a link between this verse and Exo 3:14 ... I don't see any grounds for you to do so. Jesus uses the term "I am - ego eimi on quite a few occasions e.g. John 4:26, 8:24,28;
Even the healed blind man did so - John 9:9. It appears to me that the expression,
"I am [he]! - ego eimi!" is equivalent to "It's me!"
If you are implying that John 8:58 answers my question, should it not read
"Before Abraham was, I am GOD"??

Yes! His hostile audience wanted to stone him, but it appears to me, that it wasn't for the reasons that you claim. I believe the clues to why they wanted to stone him lie in the discourse of John 8:31-58 especially
(John 8:53) Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

3) As for Luke 5 and the such like, I believe Acts 2:22 sums it up ...
(Acts 2:22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by [THROUGH] him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Compare (Acts 10:38 ) How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
GOD performed all the miracles and wonders and signs THROUGH Jesus the Christ [hence the Anointed One], His Son!


However, like I said, this is solely my reply based on first impressions ... I need to read your reply in depth.

BTW, just a thought! Jesus' usage of Psalms 82 in John 10 may be an indication of the legitimate and scriptural way that Jesus, the Son of the Living GOD, may indeed be called 'god' a la Exo 7:1, 4:16, Exo 22:8-9.
Just a thought.

Adam Pastor

[Scorpion]

Hey thanks for the reply. Please read through again. I will be glad to answer any of your questions one at a time.

Funny you mentioned Acts 2:22 ... Before my dad just left to play badminton and before you posted that reply, my dad showed me that scripture and explained what it meant to me.

God wants to speak to you, its no coincidence my dad showed me that scripture and you posted about it too :p

I will explain that scripture to you later on once we get into a nice discussion

Thanks. God Bless.

[Omega]

No problem adampastor! No ones perfect, especially me. I hope Scorpion can bring some clarity to you.

God Bless!

[Bushmaster]

Nice discussion,

But what is adam's point, Jesus not being God but being Son of God, or Scorp providing wrong verses to explain how Jesus claimed to be God, or Jesus never claimed to be God?

Can someone summarize the topic?

[adampastor]

Greetings, Scorpion.

Sorry for such a long delay in replying to you.

Jesus is who he claimed to be ... God

Now concerning your assertion: That Jesus claimed to be [Almighty] GOD!!

In John 10:36, Jesus said, "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath
sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am
the Son of God?"

John 10:30-36 ... In these verses, Jesus claims to be "the Son of GOD"! Amen! This was the revelation that Peter received from Jesus' Father "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." ... it is the revelation that the 'church' is built on. [Matt 16:16-18] Jesus claimed to be God's Son on more than one occasion. [e.g. John 9:35, Mark 14:61-62, etc] The apostles and disciples of Christ propagated this claim, again and again.
[e.g. Acts 9:20, 2 Cor 1:19, Heb 4:14, Mark 1:1, John 1:49]

And as Colin Brown, Systematic Theologian of the conservative Fuller Seminary
in California, so succinctly and correctly stated: "The crux of the matter lies
in how we understand the term Son of God. ... The title Son of God is not in
itself an expression of personal Deity or the expression of metaphysical
distinctions within the Godhead. Indeed, to be a ‘Son of God’ one has to be
a being who is not God! It is a designation for a creature
indicating a special relationship with God. In particular, it denotes God’s representative, God’s vice-regent. It is a designation of kingship, identifying the king as God’s Son." (Ex Auditu 7, 1991, p. 88 ).

Jesus called himself "I am" a direct reference to God's statement to
Moses from the burning bush:

Concerning John 8:58 :-

Firstly and obviously, John 8:58 does not say "Before Abraham was, I am GOD"
In fact, no where in chapter 8, do we find Jesus ever saying "I am GOD".

Many trinitarians try to make a claim that Jesus was claiming
to be GOD by saying "ego eimi" "I am" in John 8:58! They somehow
believe that there is some connection between John 8:58 and Exo 3:14!! i.e.
EHYEH ASHER EHYEH

This claim is both fallacious and erroneous.
For starters, EHYEH is not GOD's name! It is an epithet of
GOD's perpetuity, GOD's endlessness, GOD's unchangeableness.
GOD's name [the tetragrammaton YHWH] actually appears in verse 15.
(Exodus 3:14-15) And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YHWH, God of your
fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent
me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all
generations.


Now seeing that that the NT including the Gospel of John was written in
Greek, let's for argument sake, imagine that Jesus was indeed quoting
Exodus 3:14. All anyone has to do is pick up a Greek OT, i.e. the Septuagint (LXX,
completed about 132 BC and used as "the Bible" by the First, Second, and Third Century Christians), turn to Exo 3:14, and this is what one would read:
"I am THE BEING." The phrase found in the Old Testament in Greek is,
"ego eimi HO ON."
(This is the translation from the volume by Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton: The Septuagint with
Apocrypha: Greek and English, London: Samuel Baster & Sons, Ltd., 1851).
The passage goes on to say, in translation in the latter part of Exodus 3:14,
"Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING "HO ON" has sent me to you."


Therefore, if Jesus was claiming to be GOD Almighty who spoke to Moses, and
therefore, was alluding to Exo 3:14, he would have said, "Before Abraham was,
"ego eimi HO ON ... I am THE BEING"
This is clearly something that Jesus does NOT do!! The Greek text of John 8:58 is not
a quote of the Greek text of Exo. 3:14. There is simply NO LINK BETWEEN EXO 3:14
AND JOHN 8:58 at all!

New Testament writers frequently quote the Old Testament in Greek, particularly when they are making theological points.
Neither John nor Jesus cites Exo 3:14 as the Greek text reveals! Why? Because
there is simply no connection between Exo 3:14 and John 8:58!


Now, let me digress ever so slightly to ascertain who Jesus of Nazareth believed GOD was!
Jesus was/is a Jew. He proclaimed that "salvation is of the Jews" [John 4:22]. When asked what was the first i.e. the most important of the commandments [Mark 12:28-34]. He answered with the Shema: Deut 6:4
"Hear, O Israel; The Lord [YHWH] our God is one Lord [YHWH]" or "YHWH is ONE"


He was understood to be stating that that there is one God and that there was no other God but YHWH. This one God Jesus again and again calls 'the Father'. He describes the Father as the only GOD. [John 5:44] He calls the Father, the only true GOD. [John 17:3] Even in John 8, after the
Jews described the 'One GOD' as their Father, Jesus asserts that
the One GOD of the Jews was indeed his Father! [see verses 38-42]


My point is, that Jesus identified solely 'one' person to be GOD. This
person being his Father. He had no concept of a triune Godhead. Therefore, for
Jesus to claim to be Almighty GOD, he would have to claim to be the Father.

This is something he clearly never does!


Back to John Chapter 8.
Now what did Jesus actually say ... John 8:24-58

Firstly, let us start with (John 8:24-25) I said therefore
unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that
I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him,
Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the
beginning.

Now if it be true, that by Jesus saying two simple words, "ego eimi" "I am", he was claiming to be GOD, then, my question is, where did Jesus ever claim prior to
John 8:24, that he was Almighty GOD! Where did Jesus ever say from the beginning, right up to this point in scripture [John 8:24] that he was Almighty GOD??


Jesus said "Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning" ... again,
I ask "where did Jesus say from the beginning, that he was Almighty GOD"??


However, from the beginning, Jesus claimed to be 'The Son", the Messiah, etc
... (correct me if I am wrong), there is no place prior to John 8:24 where he
claims to be GOD. He claimed to be the Messiah. This is what he claimed from the
beginning.


Jesus used the phrase "ego eimi" and there was no outcry, no
attempt of stoning! In fact the Jews had to ask "Who are you?"
Therefore, saying "ego eimi" cannot be a claim to deity!!
Otherwise, why would they have to ask such a question?


From what I have seen, the usage of ego eimi in John 8 is
equivalent to "It's me!", especially, when Jesus is identifying himself as
'the Messiah'. This pattern appears elsewhere e.g.
(John 4:25-26) The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh,
which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26
Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
(John 8:24) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die
in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die
in your sins.
(John 8:28 ) Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have
lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and
that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak
these things.
(John 13:19) Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye
may believe that I am he.
(John 18:5) They answered him,
Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he.


...


[Strange how the Bible translators chose not to add the word 'he'
when the same phrase is used in John 8:58. Hmmm!
See also verses John 18:6 & 8; Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; for other examples of the usage of "ego eimi".]


In all these examples, "ego eimi" is used as a strong
emphasis on identification. ... nothing to do with 'deity' at all!
Even the man who was blind used this phrase, to identify himself... (John 9:9) Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
Therefore, the above examples show how ego eimi is used for a strong emphasis in identifying oneself. Jesus therefore, appears to use it, to strongly emphasize that he is the Messiah. -
John 8:24,28,58, are NO EXCEPTION!


So, let's have another look at John 8.

Note, it does not say that they were stoning him because he claimed to be
Almighty GOD. However, when we consider the crescendo of stinging rebukes and
reprimands that Jesus aimed at his audience and his final amazing
assertion in verses 53-58 (i.e. that he was greater than Abraham),
hopefully one will see why they wanted to stone him!


John 8:

• Verse 24 - Jesus states that you must believe his claim, in order to
  be saved.
  
  
• Verse 25 - Jesus states that he is the same that he had claimed from
  the beginning. I have asserted that he claimed to be the Messiah from the
  beginning! Without doubt, there is no claim prior to John 8:24, (from what I
  can see) using the words of Jesus, that he claimed to be Almighty GOD.
  
  
• Verse 26 - Jesus claimed that he was sent from the Father - to Jesus, the Father is the Only True GOD
  
  
• Verse 27 - his audience understood him not ... that he was talking about the
  Father. Therefore at least from this point onwards, they were already
  misunderstanding what Jesus was saying.
  
  
• Verse 28 - Jesus claims that after he has been lifted up i.e. crucified; then
  it would be shown that he is what he had always claimed to be ... the Messiah.
  Compare: (Romans 1:4) And declared to be the Son of God with power,
  according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
  
  
• Verses 28-29 ... Jesus claims to be sent by the One GOD, and claims to speak for the One GOD, the Father.
  
  
• Then the stinging rebukes begin ...
  
  
• Verses 31-36 ... he strongly implies that his audience are slaves to sin.
  
  
• Verse 37-38 - the word(s) that he has been commissioned to speak from the
  Father, has no place in them!
  
  
• Verse 39 - he strongly implies that they are not the 'true children' of
  Abraham.
  
  
• Verse 44 - Jesus asserts that the devil is 'their father' (And we wonder why
  they wanted to stone Jesus!!)
  
  
• Verses 45 - Jesus asserts that they have rejected the truth that comes from
  the One GOD, who is 'the Father' [v. 41-42]
  
  
• Verse 47 - He asserts that they are not of GOD.

Now here comes the crucial questions: (John 8:53) Art thou greater than
our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest
thou thyself?


Now from verse 54-58, Jesus asserts not only that he is greater than the
prophets, but that he is greater than the progenitor of the very Jewish race, namely, Abraham !!


That was it! Now Jesus had gone too far! Hence they picked up stones to stone
him!! ... after Jesus made such claims!!


Jesus is the Messiah. He was foreordained by GOD to be the Messiah, the
Saviour of the world, long before Abraham even came upon the scene i.e.
before the foundation of the world. e.g. 1 Pet 1.20 (cp. Jeremiah's foreordination, Jere 1:5).


Note: Jesus did NOT say that he saw Abraham, neither did he say
that Abraham saw him!
He said that Abraham saw his day (which he saw by faith Heb 11:13).
What Jesus was claiming was that he was before Abraham (in the counsel of GOD's plan) therefore he was indeed greater than the dead prophets, and above all, being the foreordained Messiah, he was greater than Abraham.


His audience could not receive this. Instead, of receiving him and
acknowledging him as Messiah and Lord; they rejected his word and attempted to
stone him.
Its definitely not the first time that a prophet of GOD who
brings the message/word of GOD ends up being a target for stoning by those who
have rejected GOD's word!


There you have it! There is simply no connection between John 8:58 and Exo 3:14, as the Greek text of the OT reveals. Jesus claimed that he was sent to the
Jews from the One God, who the Jews calls 'the Father'. [v. 41]
Jesus never claimed that he was the Father, hence, he never claimed to be Almighty GOD. He never said throughout his entire discourse in Chapter 8, that he was Almighty
GOD. He claimed Messiahship. Nothing more, Nothing less.


To back up my assertion, let me quote from The Doctrine of the Trinity -
Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound by Sir Anthony Buzzard & Charles Harding (Lanham: International Scholars Publication,1998 ), p. 218-221 :-

In John 8:58 Jesus claimed superiority over Abraham. His
supreme position, however, depends on the Father who glorifies His Son (John 8:54). He stated that Abraham rejoiced to "see my day" (John 8:56) - that
is, Abraham by faith saw Messiah's coming in advance of its actual arrival.
The day of Messiah "preexisted," so to speak, in Abraham's mind. [It is noteworthy that Rabbinic traditions state Abraham saw a vision of the entire
history of his descendants (Midrash Rabbah, XLIV, on Gen. 15:18 ) IV Ezra 3:14 says that God granted Abraham a vision of the end times.]

The Jews misunderstood what Jesus had said, believing that he had made a claim to be actually a contemporary of Abraham (John 8:57). Jesus reaffirmed his absolute preeminence in God's plan with the astonishing claim,
"Before Abraham was, I am [he]" (John 8:58 ).


To grasp the meaning of the phrase "I am" in this text,
it is essential to compare it with John's frequent use of the same phrase, which
is in several places connected with the Messiahship of Jesus:

• John 18:5: "Jesus said to
  them, 'I am [he]' ". (identified himself as the one they were looking
  for).
• John 6:20: "Jesus [walking on the water] said to them:
  'It is I' " (literally "I am").
• John 9:9: "[The man healed of blindness] kept saying 'I am [he]' "
  (i.e., "I am the one.").
  
• John 4:26: "Jesus said to [the woman at the well],
  'I who speak to you am [he]' " (i.e., the Messiah, verse 25).
  
• John 8:24: "Unless you believe that I am [he], you shall die in your sins."
  
• John 8:28: "When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then you shall know that
  I am [he]."
  
• John 13:19: "I am telling you before it comes to pass so that when it does occur you may believe that I am [he]."
  ...
  
• Cp. John 10:24; 25: " 'If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.'
  Jesus answered them, 'I told you', and you do not believe me."
  
• John 8:58: "Before Abraham came to be, I am [he]."
  

At this point John's expressly stated purpose for writing
the whole of his Gospel must be kept in mind. His aim was that we should
"believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God" (John 20:31). The fact
that in the Old Testament God speaks of Himself as "I am [He]"
does not lead us, as often thought, to the conclusion that on
Jesus's lips "I am [he]" means "I am God" in the Trinitarian sense.
Jesus's "I am he" declarations in John can be satisfactorily explained as a claim to be the Messiah. As such Jesus presents himself as the unique agent of the One God and empowered by the latter to act on His behalf.


Even if one were to connect Jesus's ego eimi ("I am") statements with the words of God in the Old Testament, there would still be no justification for identifying Jesus with God in the Trinitarian sense. Jesus, as Messiah, may bear a divine title without being God. Once the Jewish principle of "agency" is taken into account, it will be readily understood that Jesus perfectly represents his Father. As agent he acts for and speaks for his principal, so that the acts of God are manifested in Jesus. None of this, however, makes Jesus literally God. He remains the human Messiah promised by the Scriptures. ...


The evidence before us (cited above) shows that the
famous phrase ego eimi means "I am the promised one," "the one in question." The blind man identifies himself by saying "I am the person you are looking for";
"I am the one." In contexts where the Son of Man or
the Christ are being discussed Jesus claims to be "the one," i.e., Son of Man, Christ. In each case it is proper (as translators recognize) to add the word "he" to the "I am." There is every reason to be consistent and to supply "he" in John 8:58 also. Thus in John 4:26, "I am" = "I am [he, the Messiah]."
In John 8:58 likewise Jesus declares,
"Before Abraham was, I am [he, the appointed Messiah]."


It is important to notice that Jesus did not use the phrase revealing God's name to Moses. At the burning bush the One God had declared His name as "I am who I am" or "I am the self-existent one" (Ex. 3:14).
The phrase in the Greek version of the Old Testament reads ego eimi ho hown, which is quite different from the "I am he" used by Jesus.
If Jesus had indeed claimed to be God, it is quite extraordinary that in a
subsequent encounter with hostile Jews he claims not to be God, but the unique agent of God bearing the title "Son of God" (John 10:34-36)


It is fair to ask how someone can "be" before he actually
is. Is the traditional doctrine of the Incarnation of a second divine being the
only possible way of dealing with the Johannine preexistence statements? The
pattern of foreordination language found in John's Gospel does not require a
literal preexistence of the Son. Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to
the coming of the Messiah. Messiah's day was a reality to Abraham through the eyes of faith. So also the Messiah "existed" as the supreme subject of God's plan long before the birth of Abraham.
"Before Abraham came to be, I am [the one]" is a profound
statement about God's original plan for the world centered in Jesus, whom John
can also describe as "crucified before the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8 ).
We have no difficulty grasping how this is to be understood. Jesus was the one
appointed - and appointed to die - long before Abraham, as the supreme agent of
God's plan. If Jesus was "crucified before Abraham," he himself may be said to
have "existed" in the eternal counsels of God. In that sense he was indeed
appointed as Savior of the world before the birth of Abraham.


In support of this interpretation we cite again the
comments of Gilbert. Of John 8:58 he says:


Jesus has been emphasizing his Messianic claim. He does not say that before Abraham was born the logos existed; he says "I am." It is Jesus the Messiah, Jesus the man whom the Father consecrated to the Messianic work who speaks. Just before this he had spoken of "my day," which Abraham saw (John 8:56), by which we must understand the historical appearance of Jesus as Messiah. Abraham had seen this, virtually seen it in God's promise of a seed (Gen. 12:3, 15:4,5) and had greeted it from afar (Heb. 11:13). And now it is this one who consciously realizes the distant vision of Abraham who says, "Before Abraham was born, I am." Jesus therefore, seems to affirm that his historic Messianic personality existed before Abraham was born. If that had been the case, then its existence before Abraham must be thought of as ideal.
[The Revelation of Jesus, A Study of the Primary Sources of Christianity, (New York: Macmillian Co., 1899), 214,215]

Now, as for all the other set of verses that you gave i.e. John 9:35-38, Luke 5, etc ... all these verses can be explained by viewing Jesus of Nazareth as
GOD's anointed vice-regent, GOD's anointed plenipotentiary, GOD's anointed representative, GOD's anointed, appointed agent.

Jesus as GOD's agent spoke for GOD and representing GOD to the people.
Jesus did absolutely nothing of himself [8:28, cp. 5:19]; GOD worked all
His signs and wonders through his Chosen One. [Acts 2:22, 10:38,
John 14:10] Jesus of Nazareth, as GOD's representative, operated in the
authority of GOD (even in forgiving sins). Even those who believed on him understood this. See for example ... (Matthew 9:8 ) But when the multitude saw it, they marvelled,
and glorified God, which had given such power [authority] unto men.
i.e. the man Messiah Jesus.
Almighty GOD was glorified for giving such authority to Jesus of Nazareth.
[Luke 5:25, Mark 2:12]


Since Jesus was the promised 'Prophet' of Deut 18:15,18-19; he spoke the very words of GOD. [John 12:48-50].
Since Jesus was the promised 'Son of GOD, King of Israel', he was worshipped as such.
There are many examples of kings and dignitaries in the OT being worshipped.
The Bible translators cloud and obscure this fact by translating the OT word for worship, shachah, as 'make obeisance, do reverence, bow down, etc'. The NT equivalent word is proskuneo.
Since, Jesus was the promised 'Prophet' [Matt 21:11, Luke 7:16, 24:19, Acts 3:22-23, etc] and the King Messiah [John 1:49, Luke 2:26, etc] he was indeed worshipped in the similar fashion as of the kings of Israel and the prophets of old
[e.g. 1 Sam 24:8, 1 Kings 1:16, 23, 31, 53, 2 Kings 2:15, etc.
(Matthew 18:23-26) Therefore is the kingdom of heaven
likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24
And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten
thousand talents. 25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him
to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be
made. 26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying,
Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.]

How could one expect anything less for Jesus of Nazareth! However he was worshipped as 'That Prophet', 'The Lord Messiah'.
This worship is clearly distinct from the worship that belongs to GOD Almighty.


GOD is worshipped as GOD! The King is worshipped as GOD's anointed one.
Compare:
(1 Chronicles 29:20) And David said to all the congregation, Now bless YAHWEH
your God. And all the congregation blessed YAHWEH God of their fathers, and
bowed down their heads, and worshipped YAHWEH, and the king.


Scorpion, I hope my reply will be of some edification to you


Yours In Messiah,
Adam Pastor

[Scorpion]

Thanks Adam, great post. I have all the replies for your post, but im going to start a new topic proving the deity of Jesus Christ and will answer all claims about scriptures ONE BY ONE ... great post though. I will answer all your questions though

Hey, would you mind me asking who you beleive in as God? are you a Born-again beleiver? Are you jewish? it would be great if you could tell me a bit about your religious beleifs so i know how to answer your questions more better.

Thanks! See in my new thread coming soon.

[Alpha]

My point is, that Jesus identified solely 'one' person to be GOD. This
person being his Father. He had no concept of a triune Godhead. Therefore, for
Jesus to claim to be Almighty GOD, he would have to claim to be the Father.

Phillippians 2:5-8>Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Christ claims if he is the only one to bear witness of himself then his witness is not true (John 5:31). But his witness is true because the Father also bore witness of him [John 8:18]. What did the Father say about Jesus?

Hebrews 1:8-9>But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

As we see here, not only does the Father claim to be the God of the Son, but the Father also claims that the Son is God. A Triune God is in effect.

The Holy Bible also supports the fact that Christ is God:

1 Timothy 3:16>And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Colossians 1:14-15>In whom (Jesus) we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn {Inheritor} of every creature.

Colossians 2:9-10>For in Him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Isaiah 9:6>For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 1:1,14>In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God......... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Titus 1:1-4>Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; But hath in due times manifested His word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

etc, etc, etc.

[Bushmaster]

Sorry, didn't have too much time to read all the discussion my question went unanswered? What is adampastor saying? Jesus is not God? How different is that from islam's point of view?

Can someone fill me in?

[Scorpion]

Hi bro!

Yeh, from what i've been reading, he doesn't seem to agree about the Diety of Jesus. I will prove that Jesus was God and IS God from one of my next threads.

[Omega]

How hard can it be, is it not written:Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.{But he spake of the temple of his body}

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9

God is God there is only 1 God and there is no other!

It is written: And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zechariah 14:9

It is also written: And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:11

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: John 17:1

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13,14

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 11:15

But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. Daniel 7:18

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:Deuteronomy 6:4

And no coincidence that at this very moment in time as i am writing this , someone who has no idea what i am writing just said the word LORD in the background.

Revelation 19:16 - And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

i am absolutely certain that that very statement alone would cause God to become irate if it were not TRUE.

It is written:- And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Revelation 19:15

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

[Omega]

Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. Matthew 14:33

The Son of God not A son of God.

[Bushmaster]

I would like to ask something I didn't understand, how do you WORSHIP a person "LIKE THAT PROPHET"? Are there "WORSHIP" types for prophets and gods?

[Alpha]

I would like to ask something I didn't understand, how do you WORSHIP a person "LIKE THAT PROPHET"? Are there "WORSHIP" types for prophets and gods?

What do you mean? It is blasphemy to worship prophets and idols. Fortunately, Christ is not only a prophet but the only begotten Son of the living God. If we see Christ we see the Father and we are allowed to pray to the Father in Christ's name.

[Bushmaster]

Since, Jesus was the promised 'Prophet' [Matt 21:11, Luke 7:16, 24:19, Acts 3:22-23, etc] and the King Messiah [John 1:49, Luke 2:26, etc] he was indeed worshipped in the similar fashion as of the kings of Israel and the prophets of old
[e.g. 1 Sam 24:8, 1 Kings 1:16, 23, 31, 53, 2 Kings 2:15, etc.
(Matthew 18:23-26) Therefore is the kingdom of heaven
likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24
And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten
thousand talents. 25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him
to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be
made. 26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying,
Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.]

How could one expect anything less for Jesus of Nazareth! However he was worshipped as 'That Prophet', 'The Lord Messiah'.
This worship is clearly distinct from the worship that belongs to GOD Almighty.

[Omega]

How could one expect anything less for Jesus of Nazareth! However he was worshipped as 'That Prophet', 'The Lord Messiah'.
This worship is clearly distinct from the worship that belongs to GOD Almighty.

1 Chronicles 29:20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshiped the LORD, and the king.

In this case this is referring to prostrating themselves before the King, it does not say that the congregation worshiped the king and the Lord but the Lord and the king. Furthermore it also says that the congregation blessed the Lord God and their fathers and not their fathers and then the Lord God.

Hebrew:07812 shachah/shaw-khaw' v
AV - worship 99, bow 31, bow down 18, obeisance 9, reverence 5,
fall down 3, themselves 2, stoop 1, crouch 1, misc 3; 172

It is written:God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24

Greek:4352 proskunew/proskuneo/pros-koo-neh'-o

from 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss,
like a dog licking his master's hand); TDNT 6:758,948; v

The same is applied to Jesus in this verse:And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.John 9:38

Now if you were to say that the Worship of Jesus differs from the worship of God, these two verses show that they are of the same type of worship.

Furthermore it is written:And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Hebrews 1:6

And the same type of worship which is applied to Jesus is also stated in this verse:And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. Revelation 22:8,9

God Bless!

[adampastor]

Greetings Bushmaster,
allow me to elaborate on 'worship' and its distinction.

Theologians call it, 'religious worship' (which is due to GOD alone) and 'civil worship' (which is due to men such as dignitaries and kings).
The Scriptures describe both kinds of 'worship'.

The Hebrew word for worship, shachah - Strong's 7812, is used more often in the OT, in regards to men, than it is used in regards to Almighty GOD!! The KJV/Bible translators obscured this fact by translating this word as
bow down, fall down, make obeisance, do obeisance, do reverence,etc.
However, the main thing to notice, is that this kind of 'worship' does not violate the commandments which speak of the worship which is due to Almighty GOD alone. Why? Because when men are shachah-worshipped in the OT, they are not being worshipped AS Almighty GOD! They are shachah-worshipped for who they are and for what (or who) they represent. Hence men of GOD, patriarchs, prophets and kings, (even parents and siblings), were given due worship/reverence accordingly ... it is obvious, however, that these men were not being shachah-worshipped AS Almighty GOD!
The kings of Israel/Judah of the OT, were the anointed ones of GOD, GOD's appointed kings; they were royalty, they were therefore, given due worship/obeisance. This 'kind of (civil) worship' is still witnessed today in countries which still have royal families. From what I gathered, the English call it 'curtsy'; and they also refer to their 'mayor' as 'the Right Worshipful'!
In contrast, in biblical times, it was the norm to fall flat on one's face, when greeting a dignitary or king.

The NT equivalent word for worship is 'proskuneo - Strong's 4352. When Jesus gave the parable about forgiveness concerning a certain king [Matt 18:23], he described how the servant proskuneo-worshipped the king [v. 26]; whilst in contrast, the servant's fellowservant simply besought him! [v. 29] The difference being, the servant was no king! Even in the regeneration when the saints are glorified, the enemies of the saints will have to proskuneo-worship before their feet. [Rev 3:9] The implications should be clear!

The OT, therefore, gives us the necessary backdrop of the NT. When we search the Scriptures (as commanded by our Master Rabbi/Teacher Jesus), we can now see why Jesus of Nazareth was proskuneo-worshipped. Just like the patriarchs, prophets, dignitaries and kings of old, Jesus of Nazareth was given due worship/reverence.
Why? Because Jesus of Nazareth is

• the promised Prophet par excellence of Deut 18:15,18-19;
• the promised King of Psalms 2; the promised 'Son of GOD/David' of 2 Sam 7:14, 1 Chron. 17:11-14;
• the promised David's lord of Psalms 110:1.

When recognized as such, he was given due worship/obeisance/shachah/proskuneo as shown throughout the NT.

Some recognized Jesus as the promised 'Son of GOD/David', the King of Israel, the Messiah.
Please note: these terms are synonymous. 'Son of GOD' is equivalent to King of Israel. In biblical times, to claim to be the Son of GOD was to claim to be the King of Israel, the King of the Jews. Hence Nathaniel's statement: (John 1:49) Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
Solomon was the first king to be conferred the title Son of GOD or GOD's Son (See 1 Chron 22:6-11, 28:5-7).
Son of GOD, therefore, is actually a royal title! - Let me use a quote from Colin Brown (as seen on page 1),

the title "Son of God" is not in itself a designation of personal deity or an expression of metaphysical distinctions within the Godhead. Indeed to be "Son of God" one has to be a being who is not God! It is a designation for a creature indicating a special relationship with God. In particular, it denotes God’s representative, God’s vice-regent. It is a designation of kingship, identifying the king as God’s son.

Being recognized as 'the Son of GOD', Jesus was proskuneo-worshipped as such
e.g. Matt 14:33, John 9:35-38, etc.
Whilst others, simply recognized him as a mighty Prophet of GOD, and proskuneo-worshipped him as such
e.g. Matt 8:2, 9:18, etc.
(Even the Romans mockingly proskuneo-worshipped him as the 'King of the Jews' - Mark 15:18-19)

By searching the OT, we see that the NT examples are nothing out of the ordinary. The difference being that Jesus of Nazareth is 'the Promised One, the Promised Messiah, the Promised King'.
The Magi from the east came from afar, therefore, to give due worship/reverence and pay homage to the Promised King of Israel hence the Magi's request (Matthew 2:2) Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him; and Herod's reply (Matthew 2:8 ) And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.

The Magi never came to worship a deity or a 'god-man'. NO! They came to pay homage and give due reverence/worship [Matt 2:11] to GOD's Son, GOD's Anointed One, GOD's Chosen King.
(compare in contrast, Matt 21:37-39, Mark 12:6-8, Luke 20:13-15)

Throughout the NT we see other examples of this reverence. Jesus died because he proclaimed that he was the Messiah, the King of Israel, the promised Son of GOD of Psalms 2. However, to quote

The designation of Jesus as "Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead" (Rom. 1:14) is a reaffirmation of that Son-Kingship with divine authority, insofar as by the resurrection the Spirit has overturned the negative verdict of the Sanhedrin in condemning Jesus to death as a blasphemer who sought to lead Israel astray.

Like I said earlier, the OT gives us the necessary backdrop for the NT. So here are some more examples of this kind of worship (The word(s) which correspond to shachah are in red) :-

• (Genesis 23:7) And Abraham stood up, and bowed himself to the people of the land, even to the children of Heth.
• (Genesis 23:12) And Abraham bowed down himself before the people of the land.
• {towards Esau} (Genesis 33:3) And he passed over before them, and bowed himself to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother.
• (Genesis 33:6-7) Then the handmaidens came near, they and their children, and they bowed themselves. 7 And Leah also with her children came near, and bowed themselves: and after came Joseph near and Rachel, and they bowed themselves.
• {towards Joseph} (Genesis 42:6) And Joseph was the governor over the land, and he it was that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph's brethren came, and bowed down themselves before him with their faces to the earth.
• (Genesis 43:26) And when Joseph came home, they brought him the present which was in their hand into the house, and bowed themselves to him to the earth.
• (Genesis 43:28 ) And they answered, Thy servant our father is in good health, he is yet alive. And they bowed down their heads, and made obeisance.
• {towards Moses} (Exodus 11:8 ) And all these thy servants shall come down unto me, and bow down themselves unto me, saying, Get thee out, and all the people that follow thee: and after that I will go out. And he went out from Pharaoh in a great anger.
• {towards Jethro} (Exodus 18:7) And Moses went out to meet his father in law, and did obeisance, and kissed him; ...
• (1 Samuel 24:8 ) David also arose afterward, and went out of the cave, and cried after Saul, saying, My lord the king. And when Saul looked behind him, David stooped with his face to the earth, and bowed himself.
• {towards David} (1 Samuel 25:41) And she arose, and bowed herself on her face to the earth, and said, Behold, let thine handmaid be a servant to wash the feet of the servants of my lord.
• (2 Samuel 9:6) Now when Mephibosheth, the son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, was come unto David, he fell on his face, and did reverence. And David said, Mephibosheth. And he answered, Behold thy servant!
• (2 Samuel 9:8 ) And he bowed himself, and said, What is thy servant, that thou shouldest look upon such a dead dog as I am?
• (2 Samuel 14:4) And when the woman of Tekoah spake to the king, she fell on her face to the ground, and did obeisance, and said, Help, O king.
• (2 Samuel 14:22) And Joab fell to the ground on his face, and bowed himself, and thanked the king: ...
• (2 Samuel 14:33) So Joab came to the king, and told him: and when he had called for Absalom, he came to the king, and bowed himself on his face to the ground before the king: and the king kissed Absalom.
• {towards Absalom} (2 Samuel 15:5) And it was so, that when any man came nigh to him to do him obeisance, he put forth his hand, and took him, and kissed him.
• {towards King David} (2 Samuel 18:28 ) And Ahimaaz called, and said unto the king, All is well. And he fell down to the earth upon his face before the king, and said, Blessed be YAHWEH thy God, which hath delivered up the men that lifted up their hand against my lord the king.
• (2 Samuel 24:20) And Araunah looked, and saw the king and his servants coming on toward him: and Araunah went out, and bowed himself before the king on his face upon the ground.
• (1 Kings 1:16) And Bathsheba bowed, and did obeisance unto the king. And the king said, What wouldest thou?
• (1 Kings 1:23) And they told the king, saying, Behold Nathan the prophet. And when he was come in before the king, he bowed himself before the king with his face to the ground.
• (1 Kings 1:31) Then Bathsheba bowed with her face to the earth, and did reverence to the king, and said, Let my lord king David live for ever.
• (1 Kings 1:53) So king Solomon sent, and they brought him down from the altar. And he came and bowed himself to king Solomon: and Solomon said unto him, Go to thine house.
• (1 Kings 2:19) Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.
• {towards Elisha} (2 Kings 2:15) And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.
• (2 Kings 4:37) Then she went in, and fell at his feet, and bowed herself to the ground, and took up her son, and went out.
• (1 Chronicles 21:21) And as David came to Ornan, Ornan looked and saw David, and went out of the threshingfloor, and bowed himself to David with his face to the ground.

And the list goes on ...

Therefore in conclusion, let us remember, there is 'worship' which is due unto solely Almighty GOD [e.g. Exo 20:5, Deut 5:19, Matt 4:10, John 4:20-24, Rev 4:10-11, 19:10, 22:9, etc] and there is 'worship' which is due unto the King Messiah [e.g. Matt 14:33, 20:20, 28:9, etc].
Compare the worship/shachah of YAHWEH & King David i.e. (1 Chronicles 29:20) And David said to all the congregation, Now bless YAHWEH your God. And all the congregation blessed YAHWEH God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped YAHWEH, and the king.


Bushmaster, I hope this helps ...