One of the best books I've read on the subject, check it out:
Jesus Prophet of Islam
Revised Edition Muhammad 'Ata ur-Rahim and Ahmad Thomson
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books
http://www.simplyislam.com/1100.html
http://www.islamicgoodsdirect.co.uk/sho ... cts_id=206
a must read
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humble_guest
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a must read
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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humble_guest
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The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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humble_guest
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bump
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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humble_guest
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"This book examines Jesus as a prophet teaching the Unity of God, and the historical collapse of Christianity as it abandoned his teaching. The author sketches the dramatic picture of the original followers of Jesus who affirmed Unity. What emerges is that "Christianity" is the fiction that replaced their truth. A work that covers the Gospel of Barnabas, the Gospel of Hermes, the Shephard, early and later Unitarian Christians, Jesus in the Gospels and in the Qur'an and Hadith.
The author clearly shows the idea of Jesus as part of a Trinity was a Greek Pagan idea adopted by early Christian mission-aries to gain converts among the Greek, and did not become a widely accepted Christian doctrine until after the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.
This revised edition of Jesus, Prophet of Islam comes some eighteen years after the first edition was first published, and seventeen years after its principal co-author, Muhammad Ata ur-Rahim, alehi rahma, died in London, after travelling half way around the world solely in order to be able to complete the book on Jesus, peace be on him, that he had always longed to write.
Although the first edition has never been out of print, the book's other co-author, Ahmad Thomson, became increasingly aware that there was room for improvement in a revised edition, especially as regards integrating new material into the text which was not so readily available when the two authors first commenced work on the book together twenty years ago.
Although some of the original material has been restructured, very little of it has been removed. The main additions in this revised edition centre around: firstly, the historical study of how the split between the original Semitic Unitarian followers of Jesus and the European Trinitarian followers of Paul steadily developed until it became irreversible; secondly, a closer study of the authenticity, accuracy and reliability of the texts on which current editions of the Bible are based, including a careful scrutiny of the arguments for and against the current editions of the Gospel of Barnabas; and thirdly, the expansion of the last two chapters which explore what the Hadith and the Qur'an have to say about Jesus, not only as regards his original mission, but also with reference to his second coming - which many people believe to be imminent, although of course only God knows when it will actually occur.
It is hoped that the revised edition of Jesus, Prophet of Islam will be not only more fascinating but also more accessible than the first edition - and that in presenting virtually all the various perspectives from which Jesus has been regarded during the last two millenia - including those of the Atheists, the Jews, the Unitarian Christians, the Trinitarian Christians, and the Muslims - the reader will be better able to judge which are nearest the truth."
The author clearly shows the idea of Jesus as part of a Trinity was a Greek Pagan idea adopted by early Christian mission-aries to gain converts among the Greek, and did not become a widely accepted Christian doctrine until after the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.
This revised edition of Jesus, Prophet of Islam comes some eighteen years after the first edition was first published, and seventeen years after its principal co-author, Muhammad Ata ur-Rahim, alehi rahma, died in London, after travelling half way around the world solely in order to be able to complete the book on Jesus, peace be on him, that he had always longed to write.
Although the first edition has never been out of print, the book's other co-author, Ahmad Thomson, became increasingly aware that there was room for improvement in a revised edition, especially as regards integrating new material into the text which was not so readily available when the two authors first commenced work on the book together twenty years ago.
Although some of the original material has been restructured, very little of it has been removed. The main additions in this revised edition centre around: firstly, the historical study of how the split between the original Semitic Unitarian followers of Jesus and the European Trinitarian followers of Paul steadily developed until it became irreversible; secondly, a closer study of the authenticity, accuracy and reliability of the texts on which current editions of the Bible are based, including a careful scrutiny of the arguments for and against the current editions of the Gospel of Barnabas; and thirdly, the expansion of the last two chapters which explore what the Hadith and the Qur'an have to say about Jesus, not only as regards his original mission, but also with reference to his second coming - which many people believe to be imminent, although of course only God knows when it will actually occur.
It is hoped that the revised edition of Jesus, Prophet of Islam will be not only more fascinating but also more accessible than the first edition - and that in presenting virtually all the various perspectives from which Jesus has been regarded during the last two millenia - including those of the Atheists, the Jews, the Unitarian Christians, the Trinitarian Christians, and the Muslims - the reader will be better able to judge which are nearest the truth."
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
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Peace humble quest,
This author is full of BS.
Jesus Christ and the prophets of the Bible never said anythong about the "oneness" of God. Rather, they reveal God of awesome mystery with a Holy Spirit and a divine King at His right hand. The Spirit and King are of the essence of God. The King God calls His SOn, and is called "Lord" in Psalm 110:1.
Christ is this heavenly King who is God's Son.
God indeeds has a Son. (Pslam 2; 2 Samuel 7:14)
Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 talk about this holy one dying on a cross and bearing the sins of man, dying with criminals, and ressurecting.
The Trinity is not some pagan concept but a reality in scripture.
People believed that Jesus was the Lord and the Holy Spirit was the essence of God well before the Council of Nicea!
The author clearly shows the idea of Jesus as part of a Trinity was a Greek Pagan idea adopted by early Christian mission-aries to gain converts among the Greek, and did not become a widely accepted Christian doctrine until after the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.
This author is full of BS.
Jesus Christ and the prophets of the Bible never said anythong about the "oneness" of God. Rather, they reveal God of awesome mystery with a Holy Spirit and a divine King at His right hand. The Spirit and King are of the essence of God. The King God calls His SOn, and is called "Lord" in Psalm 110:1.
Christ is this heavenly King who is God's Son.
God indeeds has a Son. (Pslam 2; 2 Samuel 7:14)
Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 talk about this holy one dying on a cross and bearing the sins of man, dying with criminals, and ressurecting.
The Trinity is not some pagan concept but a reality in scripture.
People believed that Jesus was the Lord and the Holy Spirit was the essence of God well before the Council of Nicea!
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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humble_guest
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Peace bro,
For $7.50 I think you should take the time to read this book. It's not the usual proselytizing you hear being thrown around in multi-faith debates. It takes an academic and historical look at Jesus’ true Gospel. For one thing it talks about what some Christian academics are hesitant to admit to other Christians.
If anything, read the book to show you can refute the claims it makes. The authors makes a scholarly endeavor to back up his claims. It’s not at all easy to brush off what they say as BS.
This is one of the best books I've read on the subject and I highly recommend it.
For $7.50 I think you should take the time to read this book. It's not the usual proselytizing you hear being thrown around in multi-faith debates. It takes an academic and historical look at Jesus’ true Gospel. For one thing it talks about what some Christian academics are hesitant to admit to other Christians.
If anything, read the book to show you can refute the claims it makes. The authors makes a scholarly endeavor to back up his claims. It’s not at all easy to brush off what they say as BS.
This is one of the best books I've read on the subject and I highly recommend it.
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
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Does this look like Ebay? 
Trying to sell books! Well, if you know the book you should hold a discussion about it.
See, this is a discussion forum.
Trying again at responding to my post.
Trying to sell books! Well, if you know the book you should hold a discussion about it.
See, this is a discussion forum.
Trying again at responding to my post.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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webmaster
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Speaking of ebay that reminds me I gotta go see if I won the item I bidded on.
But isn't it kewl that salvation for the Jews, Muslims, and Christians depends upon just who we all believe that Jesus Christ was?
1: A wise jew?
2: A prophet?
3: The Messiah
4: The Son of God?
5: or God?
We know anything less than 4 will not get a person into heaven.
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?
He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:
[but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
But isn't it kewl that salvation for the Jews, Muslims, and Christians depends upon just who we all believe that Jesus Christ was?
1: A wise jew?
2: A prophet?
3: The Messiah
4: The Son of God?
5: or God?
We know anything less than 4 will not get a person into heaven.
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?
He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:
[but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
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humble_guest
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Believer wrote:Does this look like Ebay?
Trying to sell books! Well, if you know the book you should hold a discussion about it.
See, this is a discussion forum.
Trying again at responding to my post.
I'm recommending the book and not just summarizing it because it's a continuous piece of text. It traces Jesus' teachings since Christ's birth.
It's 300 pages and I would love to have a discussion about it once anyone has taken a look at it.
Besides, your post is basically "No, that's not true"
Unless we speak in the context of some reliable historical source, our “discussion” would end up like practically every other thread in this forum where two people throw double narratives of Jesus' life at each other without considering whether their accounts are authentic. Someone makes a claim and all it takes is for someone to make a counterclaim and for some reason people assume that the two positions cancel each other out.
If you don’t want to read it, that’s fine by me, I’m not your overseer. All I wanted to do was recommend it.
Peace
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Mujahideen
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webmaster
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Nope you are confused as usual.
1: A wise jew?
2: A prophet?
3: The Messiah
4: The Son of God?
5: or God?
Who believes 1? Jews, Muslims and Christians.
Who believes 2? Muslims and Christians.
Who believes 3? Muslims and Christians.
Who believes 4? Christians.
Who believes 5? Christians.
See the order of your problems here? Think long and hard about it!
1: A wise jew?
2: A prophet?
3: The Messiah
4: The Son of God?
5: or God?
Who believes 1? Jews, Muslims and Christians.
Who believes 2? Muslims and Christians.
Who believes 3? Muslims and Christians.
Who believes 4? Christians.
Who believes 5? Christians.
See the order of your problems here? Think long and hard about it!
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Believer
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Peace humble request,
More like "But see what God and His prophets said about the Son of God."
I do not give you one verse from the Gospels.
If you bothered to read some passages from ancient Jewish scriptures, you would see that the Son of Man sit's at God's right hand and is the Lord. The LORD calls Him His Son.
Here is the clear and evident proof that Jesus is the King that is God's Son.
No joke since this is what the prophets said would happen.
Anything that veers from God and His prophets is not going to teach me anything enlightening. Your book is wrong, should I waste my time reading what is wrong?
Besides, your post is basically "No, that's not true"
More like "But see what God and His prophets said about the Son of God."
Unless we speak in the context of some reliable historical source, our “discussion” would end up like practically every other thread in this forum where two people throw double narratives of Jesus' life at each other without considering whether their accounts are authentic. Someone makes a claim and all it takes is for someone to make a counterclaim and for some reason people assume that the two positions cancel each other out.
I do not give you one verse from the Gospels.
If you bothered to read some passages from ancient Jewish scriptures, you would see that the Son of Man sit's at God's right hand and is the Lord. The LORD calls Him His Son.
Here is the clear and evident proof that Jesus is the King that is God's Son.
No joke since this is what the prophets said would happen.
Anything that veers from God and His prophets is not going to teach me anything enlightening. Your book is wrong, should I waste my time reading what is wrong?
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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humble_guest
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Believer wrote:should I waste my time reading what is wrong?
That's a profound quote right there. Sig material.
No, nobody should waste their time reading what is wrong. Some people spend a lifetime reading what's wrong.
So let me ask you, how do you know what's wrong? Obviously there needs to be some tests of authenticity, right? You have to have proof that what you are reading is the word of God. You should know for sure that Jesus said what the Bible claims he said. To do these things, you need to go through a rigorous examination of the authenticity of the text you are reading.
That is what this book does.
So as always, it's up to you. It's not like I'm making commission on book sales. Also, please don't feel inclined to reply just to tell me how sure/happy/confidant you are and how little you need to read my book. I remind you that I'm only here to recommend it.
Peace, bros
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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humble_guest
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Chapter titles:
The Unitarian View and Christianity
An Historical Account of Jesus
Barnabas and the Early Christians
Early Unitarians in Christianity
The Gospel of Barnabas
The Shepherd of Hermas
Trinitarian Christianity in Europe
Later Unitarians in Christianity
Christianity Today
Jesus in Hadith and Muslim Traditions
Jesus in Qur'an
The Unitarian View and Christianity
An Historical Account of Jesus
Barnabas and the Early Christians
Early Unitarians in Christianity
The Gospel of Barnabas
The Shepherd of Hermas
Trinitarian Christianity in Europe
Later Unitarians in Christianity
Christianity Today
Jesus in Hadith and Muslim Traditions
Jesus in Qur'an
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
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- Location: South
The Gospel of Barnabus is a well known Midieval forgery and Unitarians are a cult.
Many scholars are doing research and further verifying the authenticity of the Bible. I trust the Word of God and I know He protects His Word.
Humble, I question the authenticity of the Quran.
Realize that Islam has alot of apocryphal fables from 170 AD Arabic Infancy Gospels and 400 AD Pseudo-Matthew Gospel.
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=3724
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=3567
I hope you'll stick around the forum and read material here.
If you have a very important point you would like to bring up, something from your book even. Just post it and we'll discuss it.
Many scholars are doing research and further verifying the authenticity of the Bible. I trust the Word of God and I know He protects His Word.
Humble, I question the authenticity of the Quran.
Realize that Islam has alot of apocryphal fables from 170 AD Arabic Infancy Gospels and 400 AD Pseudo-Matthew Gospel.
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=3724
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=3567
I hope you'll stick around the forum and read material here.
If you have a very important point you would like to bring up, something from your book even. Just post it and we'll discuss it.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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humble_guest
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Believer wrote:The Gospel of Barnabus is a well known Midieval forgery and Unitarians are a cult.
Wow, that was quick. Regarding the G of B, there're some 50 pages in the book discussing the arguments for and against it. The reason I recommend it is because it takes a balanced approach and evaluates the text fairly, especially regarding the forgery argument. I just have a question, have you ever really looked into the research on this text or did you just look it up on a website?
It's just strange you'd call it a Medieval forgery when, as a document, its origins and authorship are more verifiable than the four gospels of the Bible today. As for your comments about the Unitarians, I'm not sure if you meant the Unitarians of today. The term is used to describe historical Christian Monotheists who believed in the Divine Unity and prophethood of Jesus, not necessarily the sect of today I think you're referring to.
Anyway, it's thoughtless comments like the one above that make most of the debates on the forum here pretty fruitless. People deafly cling to their internet-research and have copy-paste wars.
Believer wrote:Many scholars are doing research and further verifying the authenticity of the Bible. I trust the Word of God and I know He protects His Word.
If you trust the word of God why are you even interested whether or not it's verified by scholars? Or do you just read the research that adds to that belief?
Believer wrote:I hope you'll stick around the forum and read material here.
Thank you sir.
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
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Peace humble quest,
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Green/barnabas.htm
This Gospel of Barnabus is sometimes confused with the "Epistle" of Barnabus which is verified as an authentic ancient writing. It is a Christian latter by the way. This gospel seriously contradicts Islam and is not an ancient writing. Evidence points to it as being a forgery. Since this thing seriously contradicts Islam I don't see what the big deal is.
Perhaps with the Epistle of Barnabus, but not this Gospel of Barnabus.
Real scholars, and I've seen some very interesting shows on the discovery channel.
The Quran is something you should be resarching on. Did you read the two links I gave you? Your Quran contains many apocryphal fables, best research that. Nothing with fallacious stories is from God.
I can tell you right here this author is not reliable.
Read my first post, and my other posts here.
I see the Trinity and Christ's divinity clearly throughout the Bible.
Must I repeat myself again? The Bible shows clearly that the Son of Man is Lord and He will be worshipped by the people and nations, and He sits at the right hand of God.
Where did I get these beliefs at??? Right in Jewish scriptures written before Jesus was born.
I wish you'll someday understand that Christians did't make up their beliefs or corrupt them, we believe what is clear and evident in scripture.
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Green/barnabas.htm
This Gospel of Barnabus is sometimes confused with the "Epistle" of Barnabus which is verified as an authentic ancient writing. It is a Christian latter by the way. This gospel seriously contradicts Islam and is not an ancient writing. Evidence points to it as being a forgery. Since this thing seriously contradicts Islam I don't see what the big deal is.
It's just strange you'd call it a Medieval forgery when, as a document, its origins and authorship are more verifiable than the four gospels of the Bible today
Perhaps with the Epistle of Barnabus, but not this Gospel of Barnabus.
If you trust the word of God why are you even interested whether or not it's verified by scholars? Or do you just read the research that adds to that belief?
Real scholars, and I've seen some very interesting shows on the discovery channel.
The Quran is something you should be resarching on. Did you read the two links I gave you? Your Quran contains many apocryphal fables, best research that. Nothing with fallacious stories is from God.
The reason I recommend it is because it takes a balanced approach and evaluates the text fairly, especially regarding the forgery argument.
I can tell you right here this author is not reliable.
Read my first post, and my other posts here.
I see the Trinity and Christ's divinity clearly throughout the Bible.
Must I repeat myself again? The Bible shows clearly that the Son of Man is Lord and He will be worshipped by the people and nations, and He sits at the right hand of God.
Where did I get these beliefs at??? Right in Jewish scriptures written before Jesus was born.
I wish you'll someday understand that Christians did't make up their beliefs or corrupt them, we believe what is clear and evident in scripture.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
-
humble_guest
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Believer wrote:Since this thing seriously contradicts Islam I don't see what the big deal is.
Ok, so let me ask you. If the G of B seriously contradicts the Qur’an, how much more seriously does it contradict the Bible?
Believer wrote:Where did I get these beliefs at??? Right in Jewish scriptures written before Jesus was born.
Hey, how much do you know about the dead sea scrolls?
Believer wrote:I wish you'll someday understand that Christians didn’t make up their beliefs or corrupt them, we believe what is clear and evident in scripture.
Well it wasn’t a God-fearing Christian that did, that’s for sure. And I don’t doubt your sincerity of belief in the Bible.
Peace, bro
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
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- Location: South
Peace humble request,
Since it contradicts both our holy books, and it's a really flacky piece of work, just wouldn't bother with it. I haven't read it so I don't know how much it contradicts the Bible.
They're really old and quite reliable.
I have some writings of Josephus. Now Josephus tells us that the Jews carefully copied their scriptures.
Josephus tells how the Jews copied the Old Testament. "We have given practical proof of our reverence for our own Scriptures. For although such long ages have now passed, no one has ventured either to add, or to remove, or to alter a syllable; and it is an instinct with every Jew, from the day of his birth, to regard them as the decrees of God, to abide by them, and, if need be, cheerfully to die for them" (Against Apion, Book I, sec., 8, p. 158). Josephus statement is no exaggeration. The Jewish copyists knew exactly how many letters where in every line of every book and how many times each word occurred in each book. This enabled them to check for errors (Shelly, Prepare to Answer, p. 133). The Jews believed that adding any mistake to the Scriptures would be punishable by Hell. This is not like the modern secretary who has many letters to type and must work hard to keep their job, and consequently feels that mistakes are inevitable. Great care is exercised with scriptures when someone holds a conviction such as this.
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... 47&start=0
Also humble, Jewish Tanakhs must not have been corrupted because the Morroccan Jews and the Jews in Iran and everywhere else all had the same holy scriptures! Not corrupted or different!
Ok, so let me ask you. If the G of B seriously contradicts the Qur’an, how much more seriously does it contradict the Bible?
Since it contradicts both our holy books, and it's a really flacky piece of work, just wouldn't bother with it. I haven't read it so I don't know how much it contradicts the Bible.
Hey, how much do you know about the dead sea scrolls?
They're really old and quite reliable.
I have some writings of Josephus. Now Josephus tells us that the Jews carefully copied their scriptures.
Josephus tells how the Jews copied the Old Testament. "We have given practical proof of our reverence for our own Scriptures. For although such long ages have now passed, no one has ventured either to add, or to remove, or to alter a syllable; and it is an instinct with every Jew, from the day of his birth, to regard them as the decrees of God, to abide by them, and, if need be, cheerfully to die for them" (Against Apion, Book I, sec., 8, p. 158). Josephus statement is no exaggeration. The Jewish copyists knew exactly how many letters where in every line of every book and how many times each word occurred in each book. This enabled them to check for errors (Shelly, Prepare to Answer, p. 133). The Jews believed that adding any mistake to the Scriptures would be punishable by Hell. This is not like the modern secretary who has many letters to type and must work hard to keep their job, and consequently feels that mistakes are inevitable. Great care is exercised with scriptures when someone holds a conviction such as this.
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... 47&start=0
Also humble, Jewish Tanakhs must not have been corrupted because the Morroccan Jews and the Jews in Iran and everywhere else all had the same holy scriptures! Not corrupted or different!
Well it wasn’t a God-fearing Christian that did, that’s for sure. And I don’t doubt your sincerity of belief in the Bible.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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humble_guest
- Preacher
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Your arguments here contain a serious logical flaw.
Let me give you an analogy of what you're doing.
The Gospel of Barnabas supports the claim that Jesus (pbuh) was not crucified.
The Gospel of Barnabas was written before the Qur'an
Erroneous conclusion: the Qur'an is based on the G of B
post hoc ergo propter hoc
(after this therefore because of this)
To disprove this faulty conclusion, one need only show that the effect was caused by something other than the suggested cause.
With historical events this is simple, since something either happened or it did not. If the Qur’anic version is true, it should not surprise anyone that an earlier text also supports this truth. It is well known that years after the alleged crucifixion, Christians believing in the Divine Unity and remnants of the Essene community continued to preach and transmit Jesus' true teachings and life experiences.
The fact that you can't show that those events in Jesus' (pbuh) did not happen means that you necessarily cannot conclude that the claim they did happen is false.
argumentum ad ignorantiam
(Argument from Ignorance)
Peace
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
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- Location: South
Peace humble request,
There is a fatal error in your argument, friend.
What you believe is based in the Quran, composed in the 7th century AD.
http://www.spotlights.org/Cx-2.htm
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... rrest.html
http://www.carm.org/bible/extrabiblical_accounts.htm
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/crucified.htm
http://www.creatingfutures.net/birth.html
There is a substantial amount of ancient historical evidence in support of Jesus's crucifixion.
There is a real lack of proof that Jesus was magically replaced on the cross.
It would seem that Islam is an apocryphal religion.
Actually it has been shown that the G of B was a forgery after Isalm.
Now the Epistle of Barnabus was around in the early Christian period, but that is different.
This is you conjecture stated in support of the Quran.
Some Essenes believed John the Baptist was the Messiah, they are the modern Mandean people. Essenes aren't a reliable group. The majority of Christians believed in what is clearly presented in scripture, that Jesus was the divine King that came to earth to bring slavation.
Here, these two links you quoted are two completely different apocryphal accounts of Jesus's childhood...both very different yet very late apocryphal writings have stories in the Quran.
Right away that tells me the something is wrong with the Quran.
At least one of these apocryphal stories is false, but most likely they both are.
What would seem more logical to you, humble quest?
Mary and Joseph went to Bethelehem for a Roman census and the town was full, so Mary gave birth to Jesus on some hay in a stable.
Or, Mary bore Jesus under a date-palm and baby Jesus started talking and told the date-palm to bring forth a stream of water and fresh dates.
I mean, what seems more "fairy-tale" to you???
The first account from the Gospels, or the other account the Quran contains from a 400 AD gospel.
Believe what you wish, humble, either Islam or Christianity, but I choose to follow what is clearly supported in scripture and not believe outrageous fables.
There is a fatal error in your argument, friend.
What you believe is based in the Quran, composed in the 7th century AD.
http://www.spotlights.org/Cx-2.htm
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... rrest.html
http://www.carm.org/bible/extrabiblical_accounts.htm
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/crucified.htm
http://www.creatingfutures.net/birth.html
There is a substantial amount of ancient historical evidence in support of Jesus's crucifixion.
There is a real lack of proof that Jesus was magically replaced on the cross.
It would seem that Islam is an apocryphal religion.
The Gospel of Barnabas supports the claim that Jesus (pbuh) was not crucified.
The Gospel of Barnabas was written before the Qur'an
Actually it has been shown that the G of B was a forgery after Isalm.
Now the Epistle of Barnabus was around in the early Christian period, but that is different.
With historical events this is simple, since something either happened or it did not. If the Qur’anic version is true, it should not surprise anyone that an earlier text also supports this truth. It is well known that years after the alleged crucifixion, Christians believing in the Divine Unity and remnants of the Essene community continued to preach and transmit Jesus' true teachings and life experiences.
This is you conjecture stated in support of the Quran.
Some Essenes believed John the Baptist was the Messiah, they are the modern Mandean people. Essenes aren't a reliable group. The majority of Christians believed in what is clearly presented in scripture, that Jesus was the divine King that came to earth to bring slavation.
Here, these two links you quoted are two completely different apocryphal accounts of Jesus's childhood...both very different yet very late apocryphal writings have stories in the Quran.
Right away that tells me the something is wrong with the Quran.
At least one of these apocryphal stories is false, but most likely they both are.
What would seem more logical to you, humble quest?
Mary and Joseph went to Bethelehem for a Roman census and the town was full, so Mary gave birth to Jesus on some hay in a stable.
Or, Mary bore Jesus under a date-palm and baby Jesus started talking and told the date-palm to bring forth a stream of water and fresh dates.
I mean, what seems more "fairy-tale" to you???
The first account from the Gospels, or the other account the Quran contains from a 400 AD gospel.
Believe what you wish, humble, either Islam or Christianity, but I choose to follow what is clearly supported in scripture and not believe outrageous fables.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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littleshepard
- Preacher
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- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 02:13 am
humble_guest wrote:
Your arguments here contain a serious logical flaw.
Let me give you an analogy of what you're doing.
The Gospel of Barnabas supports the claim that Jesus (pbuh) was not crucified.
The Gospel of Barnabas was written before the Qur'an
Peace Humble guest
,
Since we are talking about logic here, can I ask some questions? How is it that the Gospel of Barnabas contradicts the Epistle of Barnabas? Are they not the same "disciple" of Jesus?
If you believe the Gob [hmm.. BOG backwards] to be true, why is it that this is the only gospel quoting Jesus to deny Himself as being the Messiah? But in the beginning the writer states that He is the Christ [in case you didn't know, Christ and Messiah mean one in the same
]:
Pg 2 Gob: "God has during these past days visited us by his prophet Jesus Christ"
Not to mention the fact that states the Muhammed is the messiah?
Gob states ch 42 'Jesus confessed and said the truth, "I am not the Messiah". Then said the priest: "How shall the Messiah be called?" ... (Jesus answered) "Muhammed is his blessed name"' (chap. 97).
I thought that anything different from the teachings of the quran were false? Muslims love to state that the bible has been corrupted, but the Gob seems to be just as corrput
My favorite is pertaining to polygamy
It is to my understanding that in islam a man can have up to 4 wives [Quran 4:3] and as many slave girls as he wants [Quran 70:30], however in the Gob it states:
Gob ch 115: "Let a man content himself therefore with the wife whom his creator has given him, and let him forget every other woman."
My final question being is: From all of the apocryphl books out there, why is it that this particular gospel stands alone with no support? The Gospels in the NT support eyewitness testimonies, even some of the apocrypal texts support what is said in the NT yet there is nothing to support the Gob?
Were they also corrupted?
You can't just take out something you like and just claim that other parts of the same book are corrupt just to fit your fashion because you are desparate to show some type of "proof" that Jesus was indeed "just a prophet" and not GOD. KKK members did that, male chauvanists did that, polygamists and other cults do that need I go on?
This isn't a candy store and this isn't a clothing store. You can't pick and choose what's good for you and your agenda just because you cannot accept what's right in front of you. That's not a good excuse to use anymore.
Jesus is Love
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humble_guest
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Believer wrote:Actually it has been shown that the G of B was a forgery after Isalm.
There is a substantial amount of ancient historical evidence in support of Jesus's crucifixion.
There is a real lack of proof that Jesus was magically replaced on the cross.
1) As I mentioned before, to doubt the authorship of the G of B is to shoot yourself in the foot. As a piece of text, its authorship and pristine transmission though not verifiable beyond all reasonable doubt, is STILL more ascertainable than that of the four gospels of the Bible. When you drag down the G of B, you are inadvertently pushing the legitimacy of the four gospels deeper below water. I don’t see why you insist on doing that.
2) Actually, ancient historical evidence in support of Jesus’ crucifixion is precisely what is void and sought by Christian and secular scholars alike. If there actually was proof, there would be little reason to have to resort to religious debates on the subject. I don’t know what you mean when you say “magically replaced,” but I would be very interested to read the historical proof you have against the statement:
[Yet they did not kill him nor crucify him, but it was only made to appear to them so. And surely those who disagree about it are doubtful and have no knowledge of it, but only follow conjecture, and certainly they did not kill him-] (Qur’an 4:157)
It will be very interesting to read a historical proof, beyond conjecture, that an event did not only appear to witnesse to have transpired, but actually transpired.
Believer wrote:Essenes aren't a reliable group.
There’s mounting evidence that John the Baptist and Jesus (pbuh) himself were members of this group. Some have even attributed the dead sea scrolls to them.
Believer wrote:What would seem more logical to you, humble quest?
In matters of religion, divine revelation trumps speculative detective work.
Also, you are still missing the point on the reason why your argument is flawed. Consider that tomorrow the oldest known gospel is discovered which matches the Biblical narrative. The day after that, the text turns out to be, as you love to say, “apocryphal,” questionable work written by early slanderers of Christianity. Using your reasoning, one would conclude that the Bible is based on this text since it shares the same narrative and that therefore the Bible is itself an unauthentic replica. This would be illogical because the chain of events in the narrative is either true or false. Now since you say that the Bible is inspired work, and that the narrative therein is absolutely true, then it doesn’t even matter if this “truth” is contained in another questionable text. That in itself cannot falsify a truth.
shep wrote:Since we are talking about logic here, can I ask some questions? How is it that the Gospel of Barnabas contradicts the Epistle of Barnabas? Are they not the same "disciple" of Jesus?
Hi Shep. You and believer have a fixation with the theological contradictions between the G of B and the E of B, and the G of B and the Qur’an, and the G of B and the Bible. I’m not at all interested in the G of B as a piece of divinely revealed work, nor as a theological document. It’s import lies in the historical account it gives of Jesus’ (pbuh) sayings, actions, and life events.
The dialogue in the G of B you’re referring to, I would say, is similar to this dialogue here from John 1, where Messiah refers specifically to the awaited Messiah of the Pharisees:
**********
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?
************
Now since you know that Muslims themselves don’t even call Muhammad (pbuh) THE Messiah, the term was being used as it was often used by Jews of the time, “anointed” being a label of royalty which was shared by several great prophets, “the anointed ones”.
shep wrote:The Gospels in the NT support eyewitness testimonies
Are you being facetious? Eye-witness testimonies? How closely did the authors of the four Gospels even know Jesus (pbuh)?
shep wrote:This isn't a candy store and this isn't a clothing store. You can't pick and choose what's good for you and your agenda just because you cannot accept what's right in front of you. That's not a good excuse to use anymore.
I thought that anything different from the teachings of the quran were false?
I’ve never used that excuse before. I take the Qur’an completely as the final testament. You’re the one who’s trying to lump the G of B as a theological predecessor to the Qur’an and that’s why I think you’re having trouble with issues of “picking and choosing”. I don’t need the G of B to match the Qur’an theologically. Historically, though, it does offer a plausible chain of events in which the crucifixion could have taken place. Since the modern Christian faith revolves around what happened in the week of the alleged crucifixion, the G of B theologically undermines the Bible infinitely more than it does the Qur’an.
shep wrote:You can't just take out something you like and just claim that other parts of the same book are corrupt just to fit your fashion because you are desparate to show some type of "proof" that Jesus was indeed "just a prophet" and not GOD.
Jesus said: "Do you think that I have come to destroy the Law and the prophets? Truly I say to you, as God lives, I have not come to destroy it, but rather to observe it.
Another reason why the G of B need not match the Qur’an theologically. No claim is made that the laws and teachings revealed to Moses (pbuh), and affirmed by Jesus (pbuh), were identical to those revealed to Muhammad (pbuh).
shep wrote:My final question being is: From all of the apocryphl books out there, why is it that this particular gospel stands alone with no support? The Gospels in the NT support eyewitness testimonies, even some of the apocrypal texts support what is said in the NT yet there is nothing to support the Gob? Were they also corrupted?
1) Supposedly the G of B is the only Gospel written by a companion of Jesus.
2) Which “apocryphal” texts, not written after or based on the four Gospels, support the NT? I’d be interested to hear a response to this.
3) Don’t get so angry, friend. Not everything has to be corrupted for there to be insufficient historical support. Selective survival of controversial texts is a lot more plausible than systematic corruption.
Peace, bros
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
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- Posts: 1462
- Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 03:42 am
- Location: South
Peace humble guest,
If you read the links I gave you, realize that many ancient historians spoke about a "Chritus" that was crucified under Pilate. The Talmud talks about "Yeshu" that twas crucified a day after Passover.
I can't see how you can reality, Jesus was crucified.
It's not unlike the Jews, sadly, to kill their prophets.
The Quran teaches conjecture beacause there is NO evidence to support the Quran's theory.
Definitely John was an Essene, but Jesus was not really a part of any group.
You didn't give me a direct answer, see you just assume whatever the Quran says is real. That is why you beloeev thys G of B is a more realistic depiction of Jesus, and that is why you'd probably believe the silly story about the datre-palm over Jesus being born in Bethelehm.
Realize that the Arabic Infancy Gospels was written 170 years after Jesus was born!
And the Pseudo-Matthew gospel was written 400 years after Jesus was born!
The Quran contains narratives from both of these contradictory apocryphal gospels!
Hey, if you want to believe in apocryphal fairy tales, that is your business. I will believe every word from a gospel written 20 years after Jesus lived then believe one word from a gospel written 400 years after Jesus was born!!!!
1) As I mentioned before, to doubt the authorship of the G of B is to shoot yourself in the foot. As a piece of text, its authorship and pristine transmission though not verifiable beyond all reasonable doubt, is STILL more ascertainable than that of the four gospels of the Bible. When you drag down the G of B, you are inadvertently pushing the legitimacy of the four gospels deeper below water. I don’t see why you insist on doing that.
2) Actually, ancient historical evidence in support of Jesus’ crucifixion is precisely what is void and sought by Christian and secular scholars alike. If there actually was proof, there would be little reason to have to resort to religious debates on the subject. I don’t know what you mean when you say “magically replaced,” but I would be very interested to read the historical proof you have against the statement:
[Yet they did not kill him nor crucify him, but it was only made to appear to them so. And surely those who disagree about it are doubtful and have no knowledge of it, but only follow conjecture, and certainly they did not kill him-] (Qur’an 4:157)
It will be very interesting to read a historical proof, beyond conjecture, that an event did not only appear to witnesse to have transpired, but actually transpired.
If you read the links I gave you, realize that many ancient historians spoke about a "Chritus" that was crucified under Pilate. The Talmud talks about "Yeshu" that twas crucified a day after Passover.
I can't see how you can reality, Jesus was crucified.
It's not unlike the Jews, sadly, to kill their prophets.
The Quran teaches conjecture beacause there is NO evidence to support the Quran's theory.
There’s mounting evidence that John the Baptist and Jesus (pbuh) himself were members of this group. Some have even attributed the dead sea scrolls to them.
Definitely John was an Essene, but Jesus was not really a part of any group.
In matters of religion, divine revelation trumps speculative detective work.
Also, you are still missing the point on the reason why your argument is flawed. Consider that tomorrow the oldest known gospel is discovered which matches the Biblical narrative. The day after that, the text turns out to be, as you love to say, “apocryphal,” questionable work written by early slanderers of Christianity. Using your reasoning, one would conclude that the Bible is based on this text since it shares the same narrative and that therefore the Bible is itself an unauthentic replica. This would be illogical because the chain of events in the narrative is either true or false. Now since you say that the Bible is inspired work, and that the narrative therein is absolutely true, then it doesn’t even matter if this “truth” is contained in another questionable text. That in itself cannot falsify a truth.
You didn't give me a direct answer, see you just assume whatever the Quran says is real. That is why you beloeev thys G of B is a more realistic depiction of Jesus, and that is why you'd probably believe the silly story about the datre-palm over Jesus being born in Bethelehm.
Realize that the Arabic Infancy Gospels was written 170 years after Jesus was born!
And the Pseudo-Matthew gospel was written 400 years after Jesus was born!
The Quran contains narratives from both of these contradictory apocryphal gospels!
Hey, if you want to believe in apocryphal fairy tales, that is your business. I will believe every word from a gospel written 20 years after Jesus lived then believe one word from a gospel written 400 years after Jesus was born!!!!
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
-
humble_guest
- Preacher
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 03:12 am
Believer wrote: If you read the links I gave you, realize that many ancient historians spoke about a "Chritus" that was crucified under Pilate. The Talmud talks about "Yeshu" that twas crucified a day after Passover.
]The Quran teaches conjecture beacause there is NO evidence to support the Quran's theory.
1) There is not a single piece of evidence that negates the Qur’an’s account, primarily because there can never be historical proof that would appeared to have transpired actually transpired
2) The fact that persons were crucified by Pilate, on and around that date, in no way proves that the crucified was Jesus (pbuh)
3) Never would I give any text equal weight to the Qur’an. The Qur’an is the only text that identifies itself as revelation, has only one version, maintained in its original language, and has a direct connection to the Prophet to whom it was revealed. In addition, it has internal and external miracles to vouch for its authenticity.
Believer wrote:You didn't give me a direct answer
What would seem more logical to you, humble quest?
Mary and Joseph went to Bethelehem for a Roman census and the town was full, so Mary gave birth to Jesus on some hay in a stable.
Or, Mary bore Jesus under a date-palm and baby Jesus started talking and told the date-palm to bring forth a stream of water and fresh dates.
I gave you a direct answer: In matters of religion, divine revelation trumps speculative detective work.
Obviously you’re forgetting that in both of your scenarios, there is a virgin birth, a miracle. Jesus’ life is rife with miracles which a disbeliever could negate with more “logical” scenarios. A non-believer would then pose you a third, most “logical” scenario that there was no miracle birth. When God reveals truth to man, for example the virgin birth, only a disbeliever prefers a “logical” account over the divine account. I don’t doubt you agree with me here.
Believer wrote:Realize that the Arabic Infancy Gospels was written 170 years after Jesus was born!
And the Pseudo-Matthew gospel was written 400 years after Jesus was born!
The Quran contains narratives from both of these contradictory apocryphal gospels!
Believer, I want you to seriously try to understand what I’ve written here, I have a feeling you’re not actually absorbing the significance:
Also, you are still missing the point on the reason why your argument is flawed. Consider that tomorrow the oldest known gospel is discovered which matches the Biblical narrative. The day after that, the text turns out to be, as you love to say, “apocryphal,” questionable work written by early slanderers of Christianity. Using your reasoning, one would conclude that the Bible is based on this text since it shares the same narrative and that therefore the Bible is itself an unauthentic replica. This would be illogical because the chain of events in the narrative is either true or false. Now since you say that the Bible is inspired work, and that the narrative therein is absolutely true, then it doesn’t even matter if this “truth” is contained in another questionable text. That in itself cannot falsify a truth.
And here:
Let me give you an analogy of what you're doing.
The Gospel of Barnabas supports the claim that Jesus (pbuh) was not crucified.
The Gospel of Barnabas was written before the Qur'an
Erroneous conclusion: the Qur'an is based on the G of B
post hoc ergo propter hoc
(after this therefore because of this)
To disprove this faulty conclusion, one need only show that the effect was caused by something other than the suggested cause.
With historical events this is simple, since something either happened or it did not. If the Qur’anic version is true, it should not surprise anyone that an earlier text also supports this truth. It is well known that years after the alleged crucifixion, Christians believing in the Divine Unity and remnants of the Essene community continued to preach and transmit Jesus' true teachings and life experiences.
The fact that you can't show that those events in Jesus' (pbuh) did not happen means that you necessarily cannot conclude that the claim they did happen is false.
argumentum ad ignorantiam
(Argument from Ignorance)
Historically, an event either happened or it did not. If the account is true, then it doesn’t matter if it was recorded in mud or on the underside of a bar table by a murderer or in a text which contains a series of other unrelated untrue statements. I mean, this is precisely the argument that is used in defense of the Bible, “yes, it contains serious historical and internal contradictions, but that doesn’t mar the truth that it does contain”.
You’re trying to do two illogical things at once. First you’re saying that since the Qur’an and your apocryphal texts contain a similar account, then the Qur’an is copied from the texts. The reason this is illogical is because if the account is true, it doesn’t matter in which or how many texts it is contained. It’s not surprising that the account is true because it is found in a divine book that only contains truth. It shouldn’t be surprising either that a historical text records a historical truth because witnesses are apt to do just that, record events as they happened. On the other hand, if you’re trying to show that the account in the “apocryphal” texts is false solely because their manuscript has a later date than that of the Bible (not even true since you’re talking about supposed authorship instead of manuscript evidence ~325 AD), then this isn’t proof at all unless you are able to show that the account is false (and not just that the early Church fathers decided not to accept the gospels). In addition, you’d have to show that this gospel influenced the Qur’an, which will be even more difficult than showing that the Trinity is not based on the triadic godhead of Hinduism or Platonic triplets of the soul. Otherwise, anyone can say that the mere fact that these philosophies are similar means that they were copied.
Peace
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
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- Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 03:42 am
- Location: South
Peace humble guest,
So Yeshu and Christus aren't Jesus Christ?
I wish you would recognize the reality that this man WAS crucified.
Today the big argument with scholars is "Did Jesus really ressurect"?
It has already been established that Jesus was crucified.
The Quran contains nothing that humans beings couldn't write, and it reflects the mentality of men.
It does not verify or build on the teachings of Jesus Christ, but it regresses from the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Nothing regressive is from God.
For example, Jesus taught that marriages were a sacred bond between two people that should not be seperated.
Now Muhammed had a bunch of wives and alot of times he married for purely political purposes, just using marriage as a form of diplomacy.
Also, Jesus NEVER killed anyone and He spared a sinful adulteress.
Muhammed killed people and he has adulteresses stoned.
Please son't tell me this man is a "prophet" of God.
The Islamic concept of God is a product of human thought.
What you said does not prove the Quran is from God.
Alot of ancient writings have been preserved.
The Iliad is very ancient yet it is very well preserved and is a complete epic that survived for 2500 years.
The Code of Hammurabi is 3800 years old!!
Again, the Quran contains narratives from two Infancy gospels that are compeltely different and were written centuries after Jesus's childhood.
Definitely any man of reason would believe a Gospel written 20 years after Jesus then to beloeve something hundreds of years after Jesus lived.
The Quran also contains stories derived from many Jewish, Christian, and Persian apocryphal writings.
Interesting how you say "logical" people wouldn't believe Jesus spoke as a child to a date-palm telling it to bring for water, and you believe this.
And so are you too "logical" to believe that the Spirit of God and the holy King are united with God?
You'd believe Jesus was instructing date-palms to do things as a baby, and yet you won't believe that God is an awesome mystery beyond human thought.
The Islamic concept of God is too humanistic, it reflects the mentality of how humans beings percieve God.
The earliest Christian writing is a pre-Markan Passion narrative.
WHat I call "apocryphal" is something written centuries after Jesus lived and resembles something taken out of Mother Goose.
Like baby Jesus making little boirfds from clay and commanding date-palms! No one in their right mind could believe these things.
I have not seen a "serious" contradiction, in fact the Bible is very accurate.
Archeologists have found Joseph's colored coat from an old tomb, and they have found Sodo and Gommorrah that were destroyed by some unusual fire.
Evidence amounts every day that the Bible is an accurate piece of historical work.
See, you just assume the Quran is a divine book, but you are using backwards logic. That is one big illogical thing that you have done.
The Quran IS a 7th century apocryphal writing that contains very late apocryphal writings found among the heretical Jews, Christians, and Persians in Muhammed's city. No wonder why Muhammed's revelations stopped for a while after Waraqa died! That heretical Chistian probably gave him the Arabic Infancy Gospels and Pseudo-Matthew gospel!!
The Trinity is clearly evideny in scripture, and that is a big reason why I believe it.
I see the Spirit of the LORD play a big role all the way back in Moses's time, I see prophecies talking about a heavenly King that sits and the right hand of the LORD and is called "LORD" so He is united with Him.
Such evidences are not to be disregared and corruptions!
God exists not as a one-bodied God (this is an impied thing, never stated in scripture), but God is The Spirit, Jesus, and Father.
1) There is not a single piece of evidence that negates the Qur’an’s account, primarily because there can never be historical proof that would appeared to have transpired actually transpired
2) The fact that persons were crucified by Pilate, on and around that date, in no way proves that the crucified was Jesus (pbuh)
3) Never would I give any text equal weight to the Qur’an. The Qur’an is the only text that identifies itself as revelation, has only one version, maintained in its original language, and has a direct connection to the Prophet to whom it was revealed. In addition, it has internal and external miracles to vouch for its authenticity.
So Yeshu and Christus aren't Jesus Christ?
I wish you would recognize the reality that this man WAS crucified.
Today the big argument with scholars is "Did Jesus really ressurect"?
It has already been established that Jesus was crucified.
The Quran contains nothing that humans beings couldn't write, and it reflects the mentality of men.
It does not verify or build on the teachings of Jesus Christ, but it regresses from the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Nothing regressive is from God.
For example, Jesus taught that marriages were a sacred bond between two people that should not be seperated.
Now Muhammed had a bunch of wives and alot of times he married for purely political purposes, just using marriage as a form of diplomacy.
Also, Jesus NEVER killed anyone and He spared a sinful adulteress.
Muhammed killed people and he has adulteresses stoned.
Please son't tell me this man is a "prophet" of God.
The Islamic concept of God is a product of human thought.
What you said does not prove the Quran is from God.
Alot of ancient writings have been preserved.
The Iliad is very ancient yet it is very well preserved and is a complete epic that survived for 2500 years.
The Code of Hammurabi is 3800 years old!!
I gave you a direct answer: In matters of religion, divine revelation trumps speculative detective work.
Obviously you’re forgetting that in both of your scenarios, there is a virgin birth, a miracle. Jesus’ life is rife with miracles which a disbeliever could negate with more “logical” scenarios. A non-believer would then pose you a third, most “logical” scenario that there was no miracle birth. When God reveals truth to man, for example the virgin birth, only a disbeliever prefers a “logical” account over the divine account. I don’t doubt you agree with me here.
Again, the Quran contains narratives from two Infancy gospels that are compeltely different and were written centuries after Jesus's childhood.
Definitely any man of reason would believe a Gospel written 20 years after Jesus then to beloeve something hundreds of years after Jesus lived.
The Quran also contains stories derived from many Jewish, Christian, and Persian apocryphal writings.
Interesting how you say "logical" people wouldn't believe Jesus spoke as a child to a date-palm telling it to bring for water, and you believe this.
And so are you too "logical" to believe that the Spirit of God and the holy King are united with God?
You'd believe Jesus was instructing date-palms to do things as a baby, and yet you won't believe that God is an awesome mystery beyond human thought.
The Islamic concept of God is too humanistic, it reflects the mentality of how humans beings percieve God.
Believer, I want you to seriously try to understand what I’ve written here, I have a feeling you’re not actually absorbing the significance:
The earliest Christian writing is a pre-Markan Passion narrative.
WHat I call "apocryphal" is something written centuries after Jesus lived and resembles something taken out of Mother Goose.
Like baby Jesus making little boirfds from clay and commanding date-palms! No one in their right mind could believe these things.
Historically, an event either happened or it did not. If the account is true, then it doesn’t matter if it was recorded in mud or on the underside of a bar table by a murderer or in a text which contains a series of other unrelated untrue statements. I mean, this is precisely the argument that is used in defense of the Bible, “yes, it contains serious historical and internal contradictions, but that doesn’t mar the truth that it does contain”.
I have not seen a "serious" contradiction, in fact the Bible is very accurate.
Archeologists have found Joseph's colored coat from an old tomb, and they have found Sodo and Gommorrah that were destroyed by some unusual fire.
Evidence amounts every day that the Bible is an accurate piece of historical work.
You’re trying to do two illogical things at once. First you’re saying that since the Qur’an and your apocryphal texts contain a similar account, then the Qur’an is copied from the texts. The reason this is illogical is because if the account is true, it doesn’t matter in which or how many texts it is contained. It’s not surprising that the account is true because it is found in a divine book that only contains truth. It shouldn’t be surprising either that a historical text records a historical truth because witnesses are apt to do just that, record events as they happened. On the other hand, if you’re trying to show that the account in the “apocryphal” texts is false solely because their manuscript has a later date than that of the Bible (not even true since you’re talking about supposed authorship instead of manuscript evidence ~325 AD), then this isn’t proof at all unless you are able to show that the account is false (and not just that the early Church fathers decided not to accept the gospels). In addition, you’d have to show that this gospel influenced the Qur’an, which will be even more difficult than showing that the Trinity is not based on the triadic godhead of Hinduism or Platonic triplets of the soul. Otherwise, anyone can say that the mere fact that these philosophies are similar means that they were copied.
See, you just assume the Quran is a divine book, but you are using backwards logic. That is one big illogical thing that you have done.
The Quran IS a 7th century apocryphal writing that contains very late apocryphal writings found among the heretical Jews, Christians, and Persians in Muhammed's city. No wonder why Muhammed's revelations stopped for a while after Waraqa died! That heretical Chistian probably gave him the Arabic Infancy Gospels and Pseudo-Matthew gospel!!
The Trinity is clearly evideny in scripture, and that is a big reason why I believe it.
I see the Spirit of the LORD play a big role all the way back in Moses's time, I see prophecies talking about a heavenly King that sits and the right hand of the LORD and is called "LORD" so He is united with Him.
Such evidences are not to be disregared and corruptions!
God exists not as a one-bodied God (this is an impied thing, never stated in scripture), but God is The Spirit, Jesus, and Father.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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littleshepard
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humble_guest wrote:shep wrote:Since we are talking about logic here, can I ask some questions? How is it that the Gospel of Barnabas contradicts the Epistle of Barnabas? Are they not the same "disciple" of Jesus?
Hi Shep. You and believer have a fixation with the theological contradictions between the G of B and the E of B, and the G of B and the Qur’an, and the G of B and the Bible. I’m not at all interested in the G of B as a piece of divinely revealed work, nor as a theological document. It’s import lies in the historical account it gives of Jesus’ (pbuh) sayings, actions, and life events.
Peace Humbleguest,
Fixation? You mean like you have a fixation on how our bible is corrupted and doesn't promote the coming of your beloved mohammed? Ok then tell me this. If you are not concerned, why not? Wouldn't it bother you if something that you are trying to use to state that Jesus is only the messenger has no other binding evidence that supports it? Wouldn't it bother you or make you think that maybe there is something wrong with the Gob all together? If you are not interested, then you shouldn't bring it into the debate because as you know, it will be debunked like all of the other arguments you and your friends have tried to use.
humble_guest wrote:The dialogue in the G of B you’re referring to, I would say, is similar to this dialogue here from John 1, where Messiah refers specifically to the awaited Messiah of the Pharisees:
**********
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?
************
So since the dialogue is "similar" as you state it, that means it's valid? I can learn a different language or be a part of some other organization that is going against some "party" as such. I can learn their dialect and come up with my own story just to prove everyone wrong who is against them? That's not a valid logical thought.
They were asking John the Baptist these questions, not Jesus. Are we talking about John the Baptist or Jesus here? I thought we were trying to disprove that Jesus is only a prophet. How did John the Baptist get involved all of a sudden?
But you failed to go on with this and you will see:
John 1 26-27 : John told them, "I baptize with water, but right here in the crowd is someone you do not know, who will soon begin his nimistry. I am not even worthy to be his slave."
Try again. =)
humble_guest wrote:Now since you know that Muslims themselves don’t even call Muhammad (pbuh) THE Messiah, the term was being used as it was often used by Jews of the time, “anointed” being a label of royalty which was shared by several great prophets, “the anointed ones”.
If that's the case, why did this person translate it to this? False.
humble_guest wrote:shep wrote:The Gospels in the NT support eyewitness testimonies
Are you being facetious? Eye-witness testimonies? How closely did the authors of the four Gospels even know Jesus (pbuh)?
Please prove this. I can ask you the same question. How closely did Mohammed even know God? He got testimony from a so called angel to give out the will of God. He couldn't read or write so he would have to tell his "stories" to some people. How well is word of mouth going from one person to the next and then to the next when they had to write it down? Why was only Zaid the only one to have his recordings be official whilst others were destroyed?
humble_guest wrote:shep wrote:This isn't a candy store and this isn't a clothing store. You can't pick and choose what's good for you and your agenda just because you cannot accept what's right in front of you. That's not a good excuse to use anymore.
I thought that anything different from the teachings of the quran were false?
I’ve never used that excuse before. I take the Qur’an completely as the final testament. You’re the one who’s trying to lump the G of B as a theological predecessor to the Qur’an and that’s why I think you’re having trouble with issues of “picking and choosing”. I don’t need the G of B to match the Qur’an theologically. Historically, though, it does offer a plausible chain of events in which the crucifixion could have taken place. Since the modern Christian faith revolves around what happened in the week of the alleged crucifixion, the G of B theologically undermines the Bible infinitely more than it does the Qur’an.
Actions speak louder than words. Let's not ad hominem here. The quran is not the final statement. The quran also has contridictions of their own. You just fell into your own words with the gob because I don't regard it as anything but heresy. However you were the one that wanted to bring it up into the argument and both Believer and I have debunked it. If anyone has issues with picking and choosing, I would believe that to be you since you state that the Bible is corrupted and only "some" of the passages in the Bible can be believed. I accept the entire bible to be true. I'm not picking and choosing here.
humble_guest wrote:shep wrote:You can't just take out something you like and just claim that other parts of the same book are corrupt just to fit your fashion because you are desparate to show some type of "proof" that Jesus was indeed "just a prophet" and not GOD.
Jesus said: "Do you think that I have come to destroy the Law and the prophets? Truly I say to you, as God lives, I have not come to destroy it, but rather to observe it.
"but rather to fufil it." since 2/3rd of the OT were phrophesy of His coming.
humble_guest wrote:Another reason why the G of B need not match the Qur’an theologically. No claim is made that the laws and teachings revealed to Moses (pbuh), and affirmed by Jesus (pbuh), were identical to those revealed to Muhammad (pbuh).
That's a simple excuse. You need to prove without a doubt that gob is relevant to quran or else your entire argument is debunked. Since you cannot do that, you have nothing to stand on. You can't see that you're picking and choosing here? You want to show a without a doubt document providing that Jesus is only the prophet. Try another heretic story and we can see if we can help you find the "proof" you're looking for. I know you won't be able to do it.
humble_guest wrote:shep wrote:My final question being is: From all of the apocryphl books out there, why is it that this particular gospel stands alone with no support? The Gospels in the NT support eyewitness testimonies, even some of the apocrypal texts support what is said in the NT yet there is nothing to support the Gob? Were they also corrupted?
1) Supposedly the G of B is the only Gospel written by a companion of Jesus.
2) Which “apocryphal” texts, not written after or based on the four Gospels, support the NT? I’d be interested to hear a response to this.
3) Don’t get so angry, friend. Not everything has to be corrupted for there to be insufficient historical support. Selective survival of controversial texts is a lot more plausible than systematic corruption.
Peace, bros
1-The only? why? because it has Muhammed in there? Give me a break. Try harder. If there were at least 3 more "books" like this, then MAYBE we would think otherwise. Just taking the statement of only one person claiming to be one of Jesus' disciples is going to make me change my mind. People lie all the time. You only need one liar to make problems in a community.
2-Actually we can't tell you that since they are all heretic. LOL HOwever, if you do read them, let me know, but from what I've seen so far, the Book of Mary supports the NT, SHEPHEARD OF HERMES. Epistle of Barnabas as well. I guess I could go on, but you wouldn't believe me anyway.
3- Trust me, I don't get angry so easily as you would like to think. I'm actually very entertained thank you very much.
Peace to you too.
Last edited by littleshepard on Sun Apr 04, 2004 05:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jesus is Love
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webmaster
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The Apocrypha Index
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/arabic_bible/apocrypha.php
The Epistle of Barnabas is in there but not the Gospel of Barnabas.
The Muslim scholar Cyril Glassé states about the Gospel of Barnabas:
As regards the "Gospel of Barnabas" itself, there is no question that it is a medieval forgery. A complete Italian manuscript exists which appears to be a translation from a Spanish original (which exists in part), written to curry favor with Muslims of the time. It contains anachronisms which can date only from the Middle Ages and not before, and shows a garbled comprehension of Islamic doctrines, calling the Prophet "the Messiah", which Islam does not claim for him. Besides its farcical notion of sacred history, stylistically it is a mediocre parody of the Gospels, as the writings of Baha'Allah are of the Koran.
The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, Harper & Row, 1989, p. 64
Here is some more information on it!
http://www.chrislages.de/barnarom.htm
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/arabic_bible/apocrypha.php
The Epistle of Barnabas is in there but not the Gospel of Barnabas.
The Muslim scholar Cyril Glassé states about the Gospel of Barnabas:
As regards the "Gospel of Barnabas" itself, there is no question that it is a medieval forgery. A complete Italian manuscript exists which appears to be a translation from a Spanish original (which exists in part), written to curry favor with Muslims of the time. It contains anachronisms which can date only from the Middle Ages and not before, and shows a garbled comprehension of Islamic doctrines, calling the Prophet "the Messiah", which Islam does not claim for him. Besides its farcical notion of sacred history, stylistically it is a mediocre parody of the Gospels, as the writings of Baha'Allah are of the Koran.
The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, Harper & Row, 1989, p. 64
Here is some more information on it!
http://www.chrislages.de/barnarom.htm
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humble_guest
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So Yeshu and Christus aren't Jesus Christ?
Yes they are, those are the names used to refer to Jesus. However, that in itself does not prove that the man was crucified. We can go over this however many times you like: how will you show that an event did not only appear to have transpired, but instead, actually transpired?
Alot of ancient writings have been preserved.
The Iliad is very ancient yet it is very well preserved and is a complete epic that survived for 2500 years.
The Code of Hammurabi is 3800 years old!!
Mere preservation isn’t the only test. Find another book with all the criteria I’ve put for authenticity and then we can have a meaningful discussion. Besides, both of the quoted books don’t even claim divine authorship. However, as pieces of text I would definitely rank them as better preserved than the Bible.
The Quran also contains stories derived from many Jewish, Christian, and Persian apocryphal writings.
http://www.islamland.org/books1/wamy/mp ... _intro.htm
Again, the Quran contains narratives from two Infancy gospels that are compeltely different and were written centuries after Jesus's childhood.
Definitely any man of reason would believe a Gospel written 20 years after Jesus then to beloeve something hundreds of years after Jesus lived.
I wrote:Also, you are still missing the point on the reason why your argument is flawed. Consider that tomorrow the oldest known gospel is discovered which matches the Biblical narrative. The day after that, the text turns out to be, as you love to say, “apocryphal,” questionable work written by early slanderers of Christianity. Using your reasoning, one would conclude that the Bible is based on this text since it shares the same narrative and that therefore the Bible is itself an unauthentic replica. This would be illogical because the chain of events in the narrative is either true or false. Now since you say that the Bible is inspired work, and that the narrative therein is absolutely true, then it doesn’t even matter if this “truth” is contained in another questionable text. That in itself cannot falsify a truth.
And here:
Let me give you an analogy of what you're doing.
The Gospel of Barnabas supports the claim that Jesus (pbuh) was not crucified.
The Gospel of Barnabas was written before the Qur'an
Erroneous conclusion: the Qur'an is based on the G of B
post hoc ergo propter hoc
(after this therefore because of this)
To disprove this faulty conclusion, one need only show that the effect was caused by something other than the suggested cause.
With historical events this is simple, since something either happened or it did not. If the Qur’anic version is true, it should not surprise anyone that an earlier text also supports this truth. It is well known that years after the alleged crucifixion, Christians believing in the Divine Unity and remnants of the Essene community continued to preach and transmit Jesus' true teachings and life experiences.
The fact that you can't show that those events in Jesus' (pbuh) did not happen means that you necessarily cannot conclude that the claim they did happen is false.
argumentum ad ignorantiam
(Argument from Ignorance)
Historically, an event either happened or it did not. If the account is true, then it doesn’t matter if it was recorded in mud or on the underside of a bar table by a murderer or in a text which contains a series of other unrelated untrue statements. I mean, this is precisely the argument that is used in defense of the Bible, “yes, it contains serious historical and internal contradictions, but that doesn’t mar the truth that it does contain”.
You’re trying to do two illogical things at once. First you’re saying that since the Qur’an and your apocryphal texts contain a similar account, then the Qur’an is copied from the texts. The reason this is illogical is because if the account is true, it doesn’t matter in which or how many texts it is contained. It’s not surprising that the account is true because it is found in a divine book that only contains truth. It shouldn’t be surprising either that a historical text records a historical truth because witnesses are apt to do just that, record events as they happened. On the other hand, if you’re trying to show that the account in the “apocryphal” texts is false solely because their manuscript has a later date than that of the Bible (not even true since you’re talking about supposed authorship instead of manuscript evidence ~325 AD), then this isn’t proof at all unless you are able to show that the account is false (and not just that the early Church fathers decided not to accept the gospels). In addition, you’d have to show that this gospel influenced the Qur’an, which will be even more difficult than showing that the Trinity is not based on the triadic godhead of Hinduism or Platonic triplets of the soul. Otherwise, anyone can say that the mere fact that these philosophies are similar means that they were copied.
Still not clicking, but I hope it soon will.
yet you won't believe that God is an awesome mystery beyond human thought.
Anthropomorphized gods were very popular among the pagans, I don’t see why you refer to that concept as a mystery.
Evidence amounts every day that the Bible is an accurate piece of historical work.
Except on the very thing it is supposed to convey: the life and teachings of Jesus. A gaping hole in the childhood narrative, unknown authorship, mysteriously fragmented transmission, and accounts of the crucifixion and resurrection which lean inordinately heavily on one of the Gospels.
The Trinity is clearly evideny in scripture, and that is a big reason why I believe it.
God is The Spirit, Jesus, and Father.
But that’s the entire point of this discussion. One should believe completely and unequivocally in what is contained in Scripture. The most important thing is to first determine whether the Scripture is authentic.
Otherwise, I think you’d enjoy Plato’s Republic as an equally valid “Scripture”.
The human soul, and preferably all social ideas, are to be divided into three-faculties-in-one.
Reasoning = Judging
Spiritedness = Spirited conscience
Desiring = Flesh, human, basic needs
Eerily familiar?
Wouldn't it bother you or make you think that maybe there is something wrong with the Gob all together? If you are not interested, then you shouldn't bring it into the debate because as you know, it will be debunked like all of the other arguments you and your friends have tried to use.
Heh, it doesn’t bother me at all, because as I said, I pit the G of B and the Bible together in terms of authenticity, and they contradict each other almost completely, so it’s good to hear how illegitimate you think the text is. I just consider that selective criticism on your part.
How well is word of mouth going from one person to the next and then to the next when they had to write it down? Why was only Zaid the only one to have his recordings be official whilst others were destroyed?
Here’s a simple, non-technical website to help you understand the transmission:
http://www.iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Sabeel/sabeel3.htm
You need to prove without a doubt that gob is relevant to quran or else your entire argument is debunked. Since you cannot do that, you have nothing to stand on. You can't see that you're picking and choosing here? You want to show a without a doubt document providing that Jesus is only the prophet. Try another heretic story and we can see if we can help you find the "proof" you're looking for. I know you won't be able to do it.
Here is the relevance of the G of B: it offers a plausible alternative to the account of the crucifixion given in the NT which does not contradict the Qur’an. I’m not interested in its theological points or any other historical points it offers.
Actually we can't tell you that since they are all heretic. LOL HOwever, if you do read them, let me know, but from what I've seen so far, the Book of Mary supports the NT, SHEPHEARD OF HERMES. Epistle of Barnabas as well. I guess I could go on, but you wouldn't believe me anyway.
That’s strange, there’s a chapter in my book about how the Shepheard of Hermas theologically contradicts the NT…
Trust me, I don't get angry so easily as you would like to think. I'm actually very entertained thank you very much.
Peace to you too.
Heh, I hope so. From your tone and jabbing use of smilies one would think that you’re getting upset.
Peace bros
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
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Peace humble guest,
God doesn't do sneaky little tricks like that.
Either Jesus was truly crucified all the way, or he wasn't crucified at all.
That former has extensive support by ancient historians.
There were alot of non-Christians witnesses of the crucifixion, so Roman and Jewish sources telling that Jesus was crucified are reliable.
But of course you're not inclined to reject the Quran, so no matter what proof exists you are just not going to believe it.
And why exactly??? You think people would take better care copying a story book than scribes copying revered holy writings?
http://answering-islam.org/Books/Tisdal ... /index.htm
Again, the Quran contains narratives from two Infancy gospels that are completely different and were written centuries after Jesus's childhood.
Definitely any man of reason would believe a Gospel written 20 years after Jesus then to believe something hundreds of years after Jesus lived.
Should I repeat myself again?
Well, seeing you're not going to reject the Quran regardless of what proofs exist exposing it.
After doing alot of research in to the Quran, I must conclude that it's an Arabian fairy-tale book.
I guess the Jews are pagans!
Or maybe you're making a big generalization.
All pagan religions have beliefs of invisible malicious spirits.
The Persians called them "Jahais" and pagan Arabs called them "Jinn"
And this paganism was adopted into the Quran.
Yeah humble, alot isn't know about Jesus's early life.
The writers of the Gospels wanted to do their best to compose a truthful account of Jesus's life, but tehy didn't know enough about His childhood do they left that chapter blank.
Now if the Gospels were written by corrupt men, they would probably have been loaded with all sorts of stories about Jesus's childhood.
Anyways, later the Christian community grew curious about Jesus's childhood, and that caused some people to contrive myths about Jesus's childhood as "fill in" to the empty chapters in the Gospels.
The Quran does not give an honest account of Jesus life, as it has narratives from contrived myth books by eagerly curious overimaginative Christians.
If you would care to judge the Quran based on these evidences, you would see how unreliable and apocryphal your book is.
Yes they are, those are the names used to refer to Jesus. However, that in itself does not prove that the man was crucified. We can go over this however many times you like: how will you show that an event did not only appear to have transpired, but instead, actually transpired?
God doesn't do sneaky little tricks like that.
Either Jesus was truly crucified all the way, or he wasn't crucified at all.
That former has extensive support by ancient historians.
There were alot of non-Christians witnesses of the crucifixion, so Roman and Jewish sources telling that Jesus was crucified are reliable.
But of course you're not inclined to reject the Quran, so no matter what proof exists you are just not going to believe it.
Mere preservation isn’t the only test. Find another book with all the criteria I’ve put for authenticity and then we can have a meaningful discussion. Besides, both of the quoted books don’t even claim divine authorship. However, as pieces of text I would definitely rank them as better preserved than the Bible.
And why exactly??? You think people would take better care copying a story book than scribes copying revered holy writings?
The Quran also contains stories derived from many Jewish, Christian, and Persian apocryphal writings.
http://answering-islam.org/Books/Tisdal ... /index.htm
Again, the Quran contains narratives from two Infancy gospels that are completely different and were written centuries after Jesus's childhood.
Definitely any man of reason would believe a Gospel written 20 years after Jesus then to believe something hundreds of years after Jesus lived.
Should I repeat myself again?
Well, seeing you're not going to reject the Quran regardless of what proofs exist exposing it.
After doing alot of research in to the Quran, I must conclude that it's an Arabian fairy-tale book.
Anthropomorphized gods were very popular among the pagans, I don’t see why you refer to that concept as a mystery.
I guess the Jews are pagans!
Or maybe you're making a big generalization.
All pagan religions have beliefs of invisible malicious spirits.
The Persians called them "Jahais" and pagan Arabs called them "Jinn"
And this paganism was adopted into the Quran.
Except on the very thing it is supposed to convey: the life and teachings of Jesus. A gaping hole in the childhood narrative, unknown authorship, mysteriously fragmented transmission, and accounts of the crucifixion and resurrection which lean inordinately heavily on one of the Gospels.
Yeah humble, alot isn't know about Jesus's early life.
The writers of the Gospels wanted to do their best to compose a truthful account of Jesus's life, but tehy didn't know enough about His childhood do they left that chapter blank.
Now if the Gospels were written by corrupt men, they would probably have been loaded with all sorts of stories about Jesus's childhood.
Anyways, later the Christian community grew curious about Jesus's childhood, and that caused some people to contrive myths about Jesus's childhood as "fill in" to the empty chapters in the Gospels.
The Quran does not give an honest account of Jesus life, as it has narratives from contrived myth books by eagerly curious overimaginative Christians.
If you would care to judge the Quran based on these evidences, you would see how unreliable and apocryphal your book is.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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humble_guest
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All pagan religions have beliefs of invisible malicious spirits.
…
"O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me." Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment. (Matthew 17:17-18 )
Matthew 8:31:
The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."
Matthew 9:33-34:
And when the demon was driven out, the man who had been mute spoke. The crowd was amazed and said, "Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel." But the Pharisees said, "It is by the prince of demons that he drives out demons."
Matthew 10:8:
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
Mark 1:26:
The evil spirit shook the man violently and came out of him with a shriek.
Mark 1:34:
and Jesus healed many who had various diseases. He also drove out many demons, but he would not let the demons speak because they knew who he was.
Mark 1:39:
So he traveled throughout Galilee, preaching in their synagogues and driving out demons.
Mark 5:8:
For Jesus had said to him, "Come out of this man, you evil spirit!"
Luke 4:33:
In the synagogue there was a man possessed by a demon, an evil spirit. He cried out at the top of his voice, . . . Be quiet!" Jesus said sternly. "Come out of him!" Then the demon threw the man down before them all and came out without injuring him.
Anyway, not all Jinn are malicious.
it has narratives from contrived myth books
Using your logic, the Bible’s notion of God is Socratic philosophy. The popular number three was thought to be generalized to all things in the universe:
Reasoning = Judging
Spiritedness = Spirited conscience
Desiring = Flesh, human, basic needs
A popular philosophy at the time, and no doubt influential.
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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littleshepard
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Peace Humbleguest
Another erroneous conclusion: people of Islam use the gob to show that some "disciple" claims that Jesus is just a prophet and spoke of muhommed's coming.
LOL
But the selective critism is on your part, my friend. To try and use something to base a fallacy makes the entire fallacy argument come false. Also since it's your mindset of logic, you fail to see that what you are doing is not consistent with logical reasoning because in your mind you are looking to disprove the bible, so you will look for anything to make your claims true when they are not. This is the "cry wolf" syndrome. You have to ask yourself the questions as to why they contradict? And you must also put into the equation of the Epistle of Barnabas too, since that is out there, however you neglect to even tackle that issue.
If you had given me something that wasn't biased as that site you just posted, maybe I would've given you more credit, but as far as it stands, I'm not convinced no even impressed by your far-fetchism. The fact still remains in Islam:
1- God spoke to the angel
2-Angel spoke to mohammed who supposedly couldn't read or write
3-word of mouth to other people who wrote it down
This looks the same to me like mormons. Joseph Smith received the same thing. I would suggest you do some research on something called the "Salamander Letter" in connection with the Mormon church.
It offers another way to lead the people away from Christ and the true identity of Christ. The devil is a smart guy. He knows how to lead and astray those who are not strong in the faith and are looking for "proof" since their eyes are filled with casts.
Well for one the sheppherd of H is not canonized so it's not an accepted script in the bible. Did you actually READ the SoH? Why is it that you need for us to read what others are telling you when you yourself should be the first to read and make judgement for yourself concerning whether or not something holds merit? I'm surprised you didn't use it in your argument, but are only stuck on gob. gob is debunked, try something else. 
My tone?
You mean you can hear my voice over the internet???? You must be filled with a spirit some how!!! 
It's not a good one though since you don't really know what you're saying. But why would you think that? Does it bother you that I use I thought they were used in instances to show peace or friendliness... 
am I wrong for thinking this?
If someone does instead of 
this means that they're mad? What type of logic is that? I always thought that it's one that doesn't use 
one would probably think that they are very serious.
But then again, your logic and my logic are totally different.
Peace to you too.
humble_guest wrote:
Erroneous conclusion: the Qur'an is based on the G of B
Another erroneous conclusion: people of Islam use the gob to show that some "disciple" claims that Jesus is just a prophet and spoke of muhommed's coming.
LOLhumble_guest wrote:Wouldn't it bother you or make you think that maybe there is something wrong with the Gob all together? If you are not interested, then you shouldn't bring it into the debate because as you know, it will be debunked like all of the other arguments you and your friends have tried to use.
Heh, it doesn’t bother me at all, because as I said, I pit the G of B and the Bible together in terms of authenticity, and they contradict each other almost completely, so it’s good to hear how illegitimate you think the text is. I just consider that selective criticism on your part.
But the selective critism is on your part, my friend. To try and use something to base a fallacy makes the entire fallacy argument come false. Also since it's your mindset of logic, you fail to see that what you are doing is not consistent with logical reasoning because in your mind you are looking to disprove the bible, so you will look for anything to make your claims true when they are not. This is the "cry wolf" syndrome. You have to ask yourself the questions as to why they contradict? And you must also put into the equation of the Epistle of Barnabas too, since that is out there, however you neglect to even tackle that issue.
humble_guest wrote:How well is word of mouth going from one person to the next and then to the next when they had to write it down? Why was only Zaid the only one to have his recordings be official whilst others were destroyed?
Here’s a simple, non-technical website to help you understand the transmission:
http://www.iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Sabeel/sabeel3.htm
If you had given me something that wasn't biased as that site you just posted, maybe I would've given you more credit, but as far as it stands, I'm not convinced no even impressed by your far-fetchism. The fact still remains in Islam:
1- God spoke to the angel
2-Angel spoke to mohammed who supposedly couldn't read or write
3-word of mouth to other people who wrote it down
This looks the same to me like mormons. Joseph Smith received the same thing. I would suggest you do some research on something called the "Salamander Letter" in connection with the Mormon church.
humble_guest wrote:You need to prove without a doubt that gob is relevant to quran or else your entire argument is debunked. Since you cannot do that, you have nothing to stand on. You can't see that you're picking and choosing here? You want to show a without a doubt document providing that Jesus is only the prophet. Try another heretic story and we can see if we can help you find the "proof" you're looking for. I know you won't be able to do it.
Here is the relevance of the G of B: it offers a plausible alternative to the account of the crucifixion given in the NT which does not contradict the Qur’an. I’m not interested in its theological points or any other historical points it offers.
It offers another way to lead the people away from Christ and the true identity of Christ. The devil is a smart guy. He knows how to lead and astray those who are not strong in the faith and are looking for "proof" since their eyes are filled with casts.
humble_guest wrote:Actually we can't tell you that since they are all heretic. LOL HOwever, if you do read them, let me know, but from what I've seen so far, the Book of Mary supports the NT, SHEPHEARD OF HERMES. Epistle of Barnabas as well. I guess I could go on, but you wouldn't believe me anyway.
That’s strange, there’s a chapter in my book about how the Shepheard of Hermas theologically contradicts the NT…
Well for one the sheppherd of H is not canonized so it's not an accepted script in the bible.
Did you actually READ the SoH? Why is it that you need for us to read what others are telling you when you yourself should be the first to read and make judgement for yourself concerning whether or not something holds merit? I'm surprised you didn't use it in your argument, but are only stuck on gob. gob is debunked, try something else. humble_guest wrote:Trust me, I don't get angry so easily as you would like to think. I'm actually very entertained thank you very much.
Peace to you too.
Heh, I hope so. From your tone and jabbing use of smilies one would think that you’re getting upset.
Peace bros
My tone?
You mean you can hear my voice over the internet???? You must be filled with a spirit some how!!! It's not a good one though since you don't really know what you're saying. But why would you think that? Does it bother you that I use I thought they were used in instances to show peace or friendliness... am I wrong for thinking this?
If someone does
instead of this means that they're mad? What type of logic is that? I always thought that it's one that doesn't use one would probably think that they are very serious.
But then again, your logic and my logic are totally different.
Peace to you too.
Jesus is Love
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humble_guest
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My tone? You mean you can hear my voice over the internet???? You must be filled with a spirit some how!!!
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tone
definition 4, don’t feel embarrassed I’m just helping you out so you don’t make the same mistake again, bro.
If you had given me something that wasn't biased as that site you just posted, maybe I would've given you more credit, but as far as it stands, I'm not convinced no even impressed by your far-fetchism. The fact still remains in Islam:
1- God spoke to the angel
2-Angel spoke to mohammed who supposedly couldn't read or write
3-word of mouth to other people who wrote it down
You might want to take a look at the site if those 3 steps are how you think the Qur’an was transmitted.
http://www.iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Sabeel/sabeel3.htm
And if by biased you mean written by a Muslim, you might want to try using non-Christian sources yourself then.
This is more academic if that's what you prefer:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/
Peace
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
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Peace humble guest,
I meant just an invisible race of spirits, aside from demons and angels.
Vudus believe in good and bad spirits, and alot of pagan cultures do.
The pre-Islamic Arabs believed in "genies" which they called "jinn", this is just a belief the Babylonians and Persians had. They called them "Jahais"
The Quran tells us these Jinn were created 6000 years agot from fire.
Do you really believe this stuff? Seriously.
That is just a weird untrue belief.
Even all the way back in Mose's time, the Spirit of the LORD was known by the Jews. This Spirit of God is of the very nature of God. The King that sits at God's right hand is of the nature of God also. All of this is seen in Jewish scriptures before Socrates was even born.
Numbers 11:25
Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took of the Spirit that was on him and put the Spirit on the seventy elders. When the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied, but they did not do so again.
2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[1] as the Spirit enabled them.
-Acts 2:2-4
I want to again emphasize that the Trinity is not some made up belief, it has a solid basis in scripture.
Has nothing at all do with Judeo-Christianity.
So humble. do you really beloieve that Jesus was repleced while on the cross?
If Allah rescued Isa, why not the other prophets the Jews killed?
[4.152] And those who believe in Allah and His apostles and do not make a distinction between any of them-- Allah will grant them their rewards; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Allah doesn't make distinctiond between his messengers, and Muslims shouldn't either.
Well, Jesus even is Islam sems to have major distinctions from the other prophets.
It's not a far-fetched belief that Jesus was crucified and died, along with the extracanonical evidence. I don't see why you won't believe that.
It's also interesting how the Quran contains well-known Arabian tales and stories of the heretical Chrisyians, Jews, and Persians.
Why does the Quran have so much from these misguided people's holy writings?
Were these heretical people closer to the Truth than the early Christians that wrote the Gospels and the early Jews?
All pagan religions have beliefs of invisible malicious spirits.
I meant just an invisible race of spirits, aside from demons and angels.
Vudus believe in good and bad spirits, and alot of pagan cultures do.
The pre-Islamic Arabs believed in "genies" which they called "jinn", this is just a belief the Babylonians and Persians had. They called them "Jahais"
The Quran tells us these Jinn were created 6000 years agot from fire.
Do you really believe this stuff? Seriously.
Using your logic, the Bible’s notion of God is Socratic philosophy. The popular number three was thought to be generalized to all things in the universe:
That is just a weird untrue belief.
Even all the way back in Mose's time, the Spirit of the LORD was known by the Jews. This Spirit of God is of the very nature of God. The King that sits at God's right hand is of the nature of God also. All of this is seen in Jewish scriptures before Socrates was even born.
Numbers 11:25
Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took of the Spirit that was on him and put the Spirit on the seventy elders. When the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied, but they did not do so again.
2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[1] as the Spirit enabled them.
-Acts 2:2-4
I want to again emphasize that the Trinity is not some made up belief, it has a solid basis in scripture.
A popular philosophy at the time, and no doubt influential.
Has nothing at all do with Judeo-Christianity.
So humble. do you really beloieve that Jesus was repleced while on the cross?
If Allah rescued Isa, why not the other prophets the Jews killed?
[4.152] And those who believe in Allah and His apostles and do not make a distinction between any of them-- Allah will grant them their rewards; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Allah doesn't make distinctiond between his messengers, and Muslims shouldn't either.
Well, Jesus even is Islam sems to have major distinctions from the other prophets.
It's not a far-fetched belief that Jesus was crucified and died, along with the extracanonical evidence. I don't see why you won't believe that.
It's also interesting how the Quran contains well-known Arabian tales and stories of the heretical Chrisyians, Jews, and Persians.
Why does the Quran have so much from these misguided people's holy writings?
Were these heretical people closer to the Truth than the early Christians that wrote the Gospels and the early Jews?
Last edited by Believer on Sun Apr 04, 2004 11:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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littleshepard
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humble_guest wrote:My tone? You mean you can hear my voice over the internet???? You must be filled with a spirit some how!!!
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tone
definition 4, don’t feel embarrassed I’m just helping you out so you don’t make the same mistake again, bro.
Peace Humble guest
Embarrassed? Over what?
Again, I don't see where you think I was angry. That's only your perception, not mine. This is how you may feel if you are threatened, but by no means was I angry. humble_guest wrote:
If you had given me something that wasn't biased as that site you just posted, maybe I would've given you more credit, but as far as it stands, I'm not convinced no even impressed by your far-fetchism. The fact still remains in Islam:
1- God spoke to the angel
2-Angel spoke to mohammed who supposedly couldn't read or write
3-word of mouth to other people who wrote it down
You might want to take a look at the site if those 3 steps are how you think the Qur’an was transmitted.
http://www.iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Sabeel/sabeel3.htm
And if by biased you mean written by a Muslim, you might want to try using non-Christian sources yourself then.
This is more academic if that's what you prefer:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/
Peace
It still doesn't prove anything. I'm trying to use logic like how you would like to use. If someone gets a "vision" is unable to read and write ["unlettered" as it's termed] he gives off his "stories" to other people. How is this something that can be factual? Would you not believe that people actually "added" something to this "word" that was given to Mohammed to fufil their own thoughts and desires?
Anyway, we're diverting from the issue that I really wanted to talk about and that's gob
Ok just humor me since you feel that I'm angry at you and maybe don't want to talk with me anymore. Can I ask a question? How is it that you can accept this document from someone that wasn't even a disciple of Christ? Where did this person get his information from? As far as my knowledge is the 12 disciples of Christ are:
1-John, Judas, Peter, Andrew, 2 James, Bartholomew, Thomas, Phillip, Thaddeus and Simon.
I don't see "Barnabas" if you know something new, please tell me.
So my other thing is this: Let's say, for argument's sake, that Barnabas actually wrote this and was a "disciple" would we care to explain who this Barnabas was? He certainly wasn't the one that was following Paul side by side, was he?
My main point for asking these things is that in order to use something as legitimate proof, you must first indeed prove that the document you are using is legitimate to begin with. If you cannot prove that, then all your arguments are debunked.
Jesus is Love
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humble_guest
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The Quran tells us these Jinn were created 6000 years agot from fire.
Do you really believe this stuff? Seriously.
The Qur’an places no such date on their creation. Let me ask you, when you read something in what you hold to be God’s word, do you rationalize whether or not revelation could be true or do you believe it based on the very fact that what you hold is God’s word?
For example, if hypothetically God were to communicate to you directly and command something of you, would you obey immediately or refuse to obey until God Almighty had given you a rationale?
Also, I think it’s hypocritical of you to believe in demons and angels and yet mock the idea of believing in Jinn and angels. You’re also using a weak argument to justify this mockery since the pre-Islamic Arabs and Persians predated the Bible, and one could say that these “genies” and “Jahais” of which you speak are what the notion of “demons” in the Bible are based on. I’m not even suggesting the latter, only illustrating the type of reasoning you’re using.
Even all the way back in Mose's time, the Spirit of the LORD was known by the Jews. This Spirit of God is of the very nature of God. The King that sits at God's right hand is of the nature of God also. All of this is seen in Jewish scriptures before Socrates was even born.
This seems to be your favorite proof for the Trinity. Please state the verse in the OT and run me through why the Jews don’t take this clue to immediately mean that their Divine Unity is actually composed of a Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. It is impossible to argue that the nature of God did not change between the OT and NT.
I want to again emphasize that the Trinity is not some made up belief, it has a solid basis in scripture.
The notion of the Trinity is embedded in the Bible, nobody is arguing against that. What we are discussing is whether Jesus (pbuh) himself outlined this fundamental theological point. You have to first show that the Bible is the word and actions of Jesus (pbuh) and to do that you have to show that the transmission of the Bible was uninterrupted from Jesus’ life to the present day.
Has nothing at all do with Judeo-Christianity.
I agree that it shouldn’t have anything to do with Judeo-Christianity. It has nothing to do with Judaism, but to say that the triadic structure is dissimilar from the trinity is to court bashfulness. I reiterate:
Reasoning = Judging
Spiritedness = Spirited conscience
Desiring = Flesh, human, basic needs
Does this not strike you at all as being familiar?
So humble. do you really beloieve that Jesus was repleced while on the cross?
If Allah rescued Isa, why not the other prophets the Jews killed?
First of all, Believer, you have to be careful here. The Qur’an does not say that Jesus was replaced while on the cross, this is pure conjecture and we should not base any religious belief on conjecture.
This is what is stated in the Qur’an regarding the crucifixion:
[Yet they did not kill him nor crucify him, but it was only made to appear to them so. And surely those who disagree about it are doubtful and have no knowledge of it, but only follow conjecture, and certainly they did not kill him-] (Qur’an 4:157)
If Allah rescued Isa, why not the other prophets the Jews killed?
For one thing, Jesus (pbuh) is not only a prophet, but a Messenger. Second of all, I consider it sacrilegious to ascribe human reasoning to the will of God. What we know with certainty is that Jesus was not crucified. Think from your perspective: if someone were to ask you “why would God have to let Jesus die to save mankind instead of just accepting man’s atonement directly?” The only answer you could give is that you believe this because of what you find in the Bible.
[4.152] And those who believe in Allah and His apostles and do not make a distinction between any of them-- Allah will grant them their rewards; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Good question, bro. Here is the meaning of that verse:
http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=12665
In summary, it means that one should believe in ALL of God's prophets and Messengers.
It's also interesting how the Quran contains well-known Arabian tales and stories of the heretical Chrisyians, Jews, and Persians.
Why does the Quran have so much from these misguided people's holy writings?
Were these heretical people closer to the Truth than the early Christians that wrote the Gospels and the early Jews?
For one thing, you define heretical as anything not found in the Bible. The fact that the Qur’an speaks of a Divine Unity and dispels the notion of the Trinity is “heretical” to you.
Second of all, you will need to show that what is contained in the Qur’an is false, otherwise as we have discussed several times above, the fact that a truth is found in both the Qur’an and an authentic transmission among the Unitarian Arabian Christians, Jews, and Persians does not signify anything out of the ordinary.
If you are suggesting that something was plagiarized, this will be the most difficult accusation to prove. Ironically, it became the least popular accusation in the 7th century even when one would think that the Jews and Christians at the time would have most relied on it. This is how evident it was that the Qur’an was not plagiarized from any earlier Scripture. Having realized this, polemics decided to move on to other accusations.
This is a good website and is well written. I highly recommend it.
http://www.islamland.org/books1/wamy/mp ... _intro.htm
Embarrassed? Over what?
Bro I was just pointing out that “tone” can refer to speech as well writing.
It still doesn't prove anything. I'm trying to use logic like how you would like to use. If someone gets a "vision" is unable to read and write ["unlettered" as it's termed] he gives off his "stories" to other people. How is this something that can be factual?
Great questions, bro. To understand why the Qur’an as factual you have to consider several things, which are mentioned in the website. You have to consider, as you said, that the Prophet (pbuh) was unlettered and yet Scripture of inimitable style, eloquence, and profundity was revealed to him over the course of twenty years. You have to consider the character of the Prophet (pbuh) and his biography to be certain of his prophethood. You have to look at the Qur’an as a miracle in itself: its prophecies both historical and scientific, its internal and external consistency, its matchlessness. Only those that realize that the Qur’an is divine revelation will believe everything therein, otherwise they will be blind to its revelation and see it as a book with tales of old.
Would you not believe that people actually "added" something to this "word" that was given to Mohammed to fufil their own thoughts and desires?
Obviously this is the FIRST thing that comes to anyone’s mind when religion is discussed, because too often religion is hijacked by people with ulterior motives. This is why the transmission of the Qur’an is so critical to the understanding of why it could not have been corrupted. Consider the links above: in different parts of the world, the Qur’an was preserved in two parallel manners, it was COMPLETELY MEMORIZED as well as transcribed. The same copy of the Qur’an can be traced to the mouth of the Prophet (pbuh), a claim that no other religion can make of its respective book and messenger.
Ok just humor me since you feel that I'm angry at you and maybe don't want to talk with me anymore. Can I ask a question? How is it that you can accept this document from someone that wasn't even a disciple of Christ? Where did this person get his information from? As far as my knowledge is the 12 disciples of Christ are:
1-John, Judas, Peter, Andrew, 2 James, Bartholomew, Thomas, Phillip, Thaddeus and Simon.
I don't see "Barnabas" if you know something new, please tell me.
Hey bro, I’m not mad at you. I only ask that we stay respectful towards each other otherwise people will take a look at someone’s arrogance and they will be pushed away from faith by representative members of that faith. Remember that this is a public forum and it’s seen by thousands of people. Do you really want to be identified as “the Christian who insulted everyone”? That in itself can be more hurtful to your cause and no amount of links or text can make up for that.
Anyway, I’m surprised you haven’t heard of Barnabas, my book has a chapter on him but here’s a summary:
http://www.understanding-islam.org/rela ... le&raid=26
My main point for asking these things is that in order to use something as legitimate proof, you must first indeed prove that the document you are using is legitimate to begin with. If you cannot prove that, then all your arguments are debunked.
I agree with you there. In fact, that’s exactly what I wish you would consider for the Bible itself. Here’s what you need to know about the importance of the GoB: it offers a plausible alternative to the account of the crucifixion given in the NT which does not contradict the Qur’an. By this very fact alone, the GoB is considered a more reliable account of the life of Jesus (pbuh) than is the NT.
Have you ever wondered to yourself exactly what people talked about when they challenge the integrity of the NT text? Obviously any rational person would want to ask, well if what the NT says happened didn’t happen, what DID happen. How did the events occur, when and why did the historical corruptions take place, deliberately or not. This topic is huge but important, and there’s no way it would fit on a thread. However, this topic is PRECISELY what the book I’ve suggested to you outlines. This is the only reason why I’d like you to read it. So you can finally have a clear alternative understanding of what happened instead of just assuming that people are reaching around for excuses without any clear alternative for the Biblical account. You’re not willing to pay $7.50 for that? If someone ever claimed they could pinpoint when the Qur’an was forged I would pay much more than that just to hear them expound their allegations.
Peace
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
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Peace humble guest,
I would in fact analyze it to see if it's really from God.
The Persians also believed in "daevas" which means demons.
Anyways, the Quran contains what the pre-Islamic Arabian pagans believed, that's the truth.
Jinn is nothing short of superstition.
The Jews believed the Holy Spirit was the Spirit of the LORD.
They just believe He is the force of God's power rather than a personality.
Numbers 11:25
Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took of the Spirit that was on him and put the Spirit on the seventy elders. When the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied, but they did not do so again.
2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[1] as the Spirit enabled them.
-Acts 2:2-4
Now we see the Holy Spirit in Christianity is not different then the Holy Spirit of Judaism.
However, Islam's perception of the Spirit is just plain wrong so obviously Islam is wrong.
Matthew 28:19
So go and make disciples in all countries. Baptise them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
And even if Jesus went into an indepth analysis of the Trinity, would you then believe?
Again, it does not have a relationship with the Trinity.
The Spiritedness of God and the Reasoning of God are clearly portayed in Judaism.
The "Desiring" doesn't make sense nor does it fit Jesus.
Well, what the Quran says about Jesus not being crucified is not reality.
To say that Jesus somehow escaped a Roman prison and escaped a city that wanted him dead and wasn't crucified is pure conjecture.
Matthew 16:21-23
21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"
23Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
You and whomever wrote the Quran does not have in mind the things of God, only the things of men.
Islam refelcts an evident humanistic mentality.
Islam ascribes guman reasoning to the Will of God.
You say about Christianity "God wouldn't do that"
You don't know anything about God, only this fallacious humanistic depiction of Him in Islam.
Your god is alien to me. I follow the Living God.
Carefully read Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 you may understand that Jesus was crucified and it was God's Will.
Yeah, what about those prophets that aren't mentioned?
Zoroaster isn't mentioned in Islam, but he was a major teacher of primitive monotheism. Even the Quran mentions Zhul-Qarnain, a Zoroastrian king (Darius, I think.), but why not Zoroaster himself?
Heretical is any fairy-tale BS written centuries after Jesus lived.
Realize that the Gospels are silent about Jesus's childhood, and people got curious and contrived myths and stories as "fill in" for this empty chapter.
Anything about baby Jeus talking to date-palsm that bring form water, making live birds from clay, and talking from a cradle is really flaky.
If you feel comfortable believing in flaky apocryphal myths, well that's unusual tolerance.
No where throughout the entire Bible is God ever considered a one-bodied God. That is just an implied thing by humans that don't know anything about God.
Your perception of God is purely humanistic and not supportedin reality.
The argument goes beyone the Trinity and Jesus's divinity, you need to look at the other issues.
Islam teaches you the Holy Spirit is an angel, well that is obviously wrong.
That alone is enough to conclude your faith is untrue.
A short history lesson, the heretical religious groups sought haven in Arabia.
Also, the Persians followed a completely different god than the Jews and Chrisians. Even the Sabeans believed in a supreme god called Alamaqh (or something like that).
These different versions of God aren't the same God.
Allah is just not possible in reality.
because the Quran reaffirmed their heretical beliefs. well sure they didn't question it's basis...it was created from their corrrupted religions!
To you it's ironic one would say that Islam is the corrupted religion.
Just observe your prophet Muhammed and his behaviour.
The man was a farcry from Jesus Christ.
He used marriage for diplomatic reasons, making a mockery of a sacred bond.
He killed people and led wars...not the greatest role model, nothing like Jesus Christ.
The Qur’an places no such date on their creation. Let me ask you, when you read something in what you hold to be God’s word, do you rationalize whether or not revelation could be true or do you believe it based on the very fact that what you hold is God’s word?
I would in fact analyze it to see if it's really from God.
Also, I think it’s hypocritical of you to believe in demons and angels and yet mock the idea of believing in Jinn and angels. You’re also using a weak argument to justify this mockery since the pre-Islamic Arabs and Persians predated the Bible, and one could say that these “genies” and “Jahais” of which you speak are what the notion of “demons” in the Bible are based on. I’m not even suggesting the latter, only illustrating the type of reasoning you’re using.
The Persians also believed in "daevas" which means demons.
Anyways, the Quran contains what the pre-Islamic Arabian pagans believed, that's the truth.
Jinn is nothing short of superstition.
This seems to be your favorite proof for the Trinity. Please state the verse in the OT and run me through why the Jews don’t take this clue to immediately mean that their Divine Unity is actually composed of a Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. It is impossible to argue that the nature of God did not change between the OT and NT.
The Jews believed the Holy Spirit was the Spirit of the LORD.
They just believe He is the force of God's power rather than a personality.
Numbers 11:25
Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took of the Spirit that was on him and put the Spirit on the seventy elders. When the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied, but they did not do so again.
2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[1] as the Spirit enabled them.
-Acts 2:2-4
Now we see the Holy Spirit in Christianity is not different then the Holy Spirit of Judaism.
However, Islam's perception of the Spirit is just plain wrong so obviously Islam is wrong.
The notion of the Trinity is embedded in the Bible, nobody is arguing against that. What we are discussing is whether Jesus (pbuh) himself outlined this fundamental theological point. You have to first show that the Bible is the word and actions of Jesus (pbuh) and to do that you have to show that the transmission of the Bible was uninterrupted from Jesus’ life to the present day.
Matthew 28:19
So go and make disciples in all countries. Baptise them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
And even if Jesus went into an indepth analysis of the Trinity, would you then believe?
agree that it shouldn’t have anything to do with Judeo-Christianity. It has nothing to do with Judaism, but to say that the triadic structure is dissimilar from the trinity is to court bashfulness. I reiterate:
Again, it does not have a relationship with the Trinity.
The Spiritedness of God and the Reasoning of God are clearly portayed in Judaism.
The "Desiring" doesn't make sense nor does it fit Jesus.
First of all, Believer, you have to be careful here. The Qur’an does not say that Jesus was replaced while on the cross, this is pure conjecture and we should not base any religious belief on conjecture.
This is what is stated in the Qur’an regarding the crucifixion:
[Yet they did not kill him nor crucify him, but it was only made to appear to them so. And surely those who disagree about it are doubtful and have no knowledge of it, but only follow conjecture, and certainly they did not kill him-] (Qur’an 4:157)
Well, what the Quran says about Jesus not being crucified is not reality.
To say that Jesus somehow escaped a Roman prison and escaped a city that wanted him dead and wasn't crucified is pure conjecture.
Matthew 16:21-23
21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"
23Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
You and whomever wrote the Quran does not have in mind the things of God, only the things of men.
Islam refelcts an evident humanistic mentality.
For one thing, Jesus (pbuh) is not only a prophet, but a Messenger. Second of all, I consider it sacrilegious to ascribe human reasoning to the will of God. What we know with certainty is that Jesus was not crucified. Think from your perspective: if someone were to ask you “why would God have to let Jesus die to save mankind instead of just accepting man’s atonement directly?” The only answer you could give is that you believe this because of what you find in the Bible.
Islam ascribes guman reasoning to the Will of God.
You say about Christianity "God wouldn't do that"
You don't know anything about God, only this fallacious humanistic depiction of Him in Islam.
Your god is alien to me. I follow the Living God.
Carefully read Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 you may understand that Jesus was crucified and it was God's Will.
Good question, bro. Here is the meaning of that verse:
http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=12665
In summary, it means that one should believe in ALL of God's prophets and Messengers.
Yeah, what about those prophets that aren't mentioned?
Zoroaster isn't mentioned in Islam, but he was a major teacher of primitive monotheism. Even the Quran mentions Zhul-Qarnain, a Zoroastrian king (Darius, I think.), but why not Zoroaster himself?
For one thing, you define heretical as anything not found in the Bible.
Heretical is any fairy-tale BS written centuries after Jesus lived.
Realize that the Gospels are silent about Jesus's childhood, and people got curious and contrived myths and stories as "fill in" for this empty chapter.
Anything about baby Jeus talking to date-palsm that bring form water, making live birds from clay, and talking from a cradle is really flaky.
If you feel comfortable believing in flaky apocryphal myths, well that's unusual tolerance.
The fact that the Qur’an speaks of a Divine Unity and dispels the notion of the Trinity is “heretical” to you.
No where throughout the entire Bible is God ever considered a one-bodied God. That is just an implied thing by humans that don't know anything about God.
Your perception of God is purely humanistic and not supportedin reality.
The argument goes beyone the Trinity and Jesus's divinity, you need to look at the other issues.
Islam teaches you the Holy Spirit is an angel, well that is obviously wrong.
That alone is enough to conclude your faith is untrue.
Second of all, you will need to show that what is contained in the Qur’an is false, otherwise as we have discussed several times above, the fact that a truth is found in both the Qur’an and an authentic transmission among the Unitarian Arabian Christians, Jews, and Persians does not signify anything out of the ordinary.
A short history lesson, the heretical religious groups sought haven in Arabia.
Also, the Persians followed a completely different god than the Jews and Chrisians. Even the Sabeans believed in a supreme god called Alamaqh (or something like that).
These different versions of God aren't the same God.
Allah is just not possible in reality.
If you are suggesting that something was plagiarized, this will be the most difficult accusation to prove. Ironically, it became the least popular accusation in the 7th century even when one would think that the Jews and Christians at the time would have most relied on it. This is how evident it was that the Qur’an was not plagiarized from any earlier Scripture. Having realized this, polemics decided to move on to other accusations
because the Quran reaffirmed their heretical beliefs. well sure they didn't question it's basis...it was created from their corrrupted religions!
To you it's ironic one would say that Islam is the corrupted religion.
Just observe your prophet Muhammed and his behaviour.
The man was a farcry from Jesus Christ.
He used marriage for diplomatic reasons, making a mockery of a sacred bond.
He killed people and led wars...not the greatest role model, nothing like Jesus Christ.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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humble_guest
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Jinn is nothing short of superstition.
So do you believe that demons, of which the Bible speaks, the same demons which Jesus (pbuh) is said to have exorcised, are also superstition?
making a mockery of a sacred bond.
He killed people and led wars...not the greatest role model
Do you believe in prophets David and Solomon?
Peace
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
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Peace humble guest,
It's quite obvious that there are good angels of God, and evil demons of Satan. There is a dualism that can't be denied. But as far as a third race of invisible spirits, that is not obvious but only an element of pagan lore.
David and Solomon AREN'T prophets at all, they are just kings.
Prophets are messengers, not warriors.
Jesus Christ never raised his arm against His enemies, in fact He was angry at Peter when he cut off a guard's ear that arrested Jesus.
Jesus said "Those who live by the sword die by the sword"
Jesus taught us to love our enemies.
And since Muhammed regressed from Jesus's teachings and did not even style himself after Jesus, he is certainly not a prophet of my God.
Do you understand this? This is very important.
I hope you'll comment the rest of my post.
So do you believe that demons and angels, of which the Bible speaks, the same demons which Jesus (pbuh) is said to have exorcised, are also superstition?
It's quite obvious that there are good angels of God, and evil demons of Satan. There is a dualism that can't be denied. But as far as a third race of invisible spirits, that is not obvious but only an element of pagan lore.
Do you believe in prophets David and Solomon?
David and Solomon AREN'T prophets at all, they are just kings.
Prophets are messengers, not warriors.
Jesus Christ never raised his arm against His enemies, in fact He was angry at Peter when he cut off a guard's ear that arrested Jesus.
Jesus said "Those who live by the sword die by the sword"
Jesus taught us to love our enemies.
And since Muhammed regressed from Jesus's teachings and did not even style himself after Jesus, he is certainly not a prophet of my God.
Do you understand this? This is very important.
I hope you'll comment the rest of my post.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
-
humble_guest
- Preacher
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 03:12 am
I hope you'll comment the rest of my post.
Comment on what? Your entire post is laced with attacks on Islam. If you had any comments or proofs, I’d comment on them, but when you just lash out like that, it’s just a sign of anxiety. You keep using post hoc ergo propter hoc to support yourself and have yet to comment on how such logical fallacies can’t sustain any argument.
Quote exactly what you want me to comment on in your next post.
David and Solomon AREN'T prophets at all, they are just kings.
http://www.jewfaq.org/prophet.htm#Who
did not even style himself after Jesus, he is certainly not a prophet of my God.
So which of these prophets do you not consider prophets then?
http://www.jewfaq.org/prophet.htm#Who
Peace
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
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- Location: South
Peace humble guest,
Look, whatever man...what you've said is purely based on the Quran, despite profound logical fallacies.
How can you believe the Spirit of the LORD is an angel?
Clearly that contradicts Judaism and Christianity.
What do you think about Jesus's answer to Peter?
Does this make sense to you, humble?
Seems like a pretty logical argument, how is this fallacious?
If the writers of the Gospels were corrupt men, then sure they would have added loads of stories in the Gospels...but that is not the case.
Samuel and Nathan were prophets that conveyed God's Word to David.
Does a prophet have a prophet???
Comment on what? Your entire post is laced with attacks on Islam. If you had any comments or proofs, I’d comment on them, but when you just lash out like that, it’s just a sign of anxiety. You keep using post hoc ergo propter hoc to support yourself and have yet to comment on how such logical fallacies can’t sustain any argument.
Look, whatever man...what you've said is purely based on the Quran, despite profound logical fallacies.
Quote exactly what you want me to comment on in your next post.
The Jews believed the Holy Spirit was the Spirit of the LORD.
They just believe He is the force of God's power rather than a personality.
Numbers 11:25
Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took of the Spirit that was on him and put the Spirit on the seventy elders. When the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied, but they did not do so again.
2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[1] as the Spirit enabled them.
-Acts 2:2-4
Now we see the Holy Spirit in Christianity is not different then the Holy Spirit of Judaism.
However, Islam's perception of the Spirit is just plain wrong so obviously Islam is wrong.
How can you believe the Spirit of the LORD is an angel?
Clearly that contradicts Judaism and Christianity.
And even if Jesus went into an indepth analysis of the Trinity, would you then believe?
Well, what the Quran says about Jesus not being crucified is not reality.
To say that Jesus somehow escaped a Roman prison and escaped a city that wanted him dead and wasn't crucified is pure conjecture.
Matthew 16:21-23
21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"
23Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
What do you think about Jesus's answer to Peter?
Yeah, what about those prophets that aren't mentioned?
Zoroaster isn't mentioned in Islam, but he was a major teacher of primitive monotheism. Even the Quran mentions Zhul-Qarnain, a Zoroastrian king (Darius, I think.), but why not Zoroaster himself?
Realize that the Gospels are silent about Jesus's childhood, and people got curious and contrived myths and stories as "fill in" for this empty chapter.
Does this make sense to you, humble?
Seems like a pretty logical argument, how is this fallacious?
If the writers of the Gospels were corrupt men, then sure they would have added loads of stories in the Gospels...but that is not the case.
So which of these prophets do you not consider prophets then?
Samuel and Nathan were prophets that conveyed God's Word to David.
Does a prophet have a prophet???
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
-
Omega
Realize that the Gospels are silent about Jesus's childhood, and people got curious and contrived myths and stories as "fill in" for this empty chapter.
It is written:And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
John 21:25
The points stressed within the Gospels are His Miraculous Birth which is of importance since tit fulfills Old Testament Prophecy, and then you have His last times of His Life, towards the Crucifixion which i might add is of extreme importance.
Um... let me see Luke Chapter 2 verse 63 :And Jesus made bread!
Doesn't seem to fit right concerning the importance of the Gospels.
God Bless!
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humble_guest
- Preacher
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How can you believe the Spirit of the LORD is an angel?
Clearly that contradicts Judaism and Christianity.
I think you’re getting your terms confused because even Jews don't speak of the "Spirit" like that:
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq122.html
Also, notice the use of the term Spirit in the Qur'an:
Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If God had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If God had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but God Fulfilleth His plan. (Qur'an 2:253)
Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' (Qur'an 5:110)
And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man. She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God-fearing. He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son. (Qur'an 19:17-19)
The Day that the Spirit and the angels will stand forth in ranks, none shall speak except any who is permitted by (God) Most Gracious, and He will say what is right. (Qur'an 78:38 )
Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by God's permission, on every errand: (Qur'an 97:4)
And even if Jesus went into an indepth analysis of the Trinity, would you then believe?
I believe only what is found in Scripture. Scripture must come either directly from God or through the mouth of a Prophet. Bring one proof that the Bible has been transmitted directly from the words of Jesus (pbuh) and then we can have a meaningful discussion. It should be the minimum requirement of Scripture to be verifiably transmitted without a broken chain.
What do you think about Jesus's answer to Peter?
It’s profound, because too often men change the word of God to appease their own philosophical whims, whether intentionally or unintentionally because they choose to conjecture when there is doubt.
Yeah, what about those prophets that aren't mentioned?
Zoroaster isn't mentioned in Islam, but he was a major teacher of primitive monotheism. Even the Quran mentions Zhul-Qarnain, a Zoroastrian king (Darius, I think.), but why not Zoroaster himself?
There were countless prophets and not all were mentioned in the Qur’an. Twenty five are mentioned in the Qur’an.
Say: "We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in Islam)." (Qur’an 3:84)
We did aforetime send apostles before thee: of them there are some whose story We have related to thee, and some whose story We have not related to thee. It was not (possible) for any apostle to bring a sign except by the leave of God: but when the Command of God issued, the matter was decided in truth and justice, and there perished, there and then those who stood on Falsehoods. (Qur’an 40:78 )
And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our God and your God is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)." (Qur’an 29:46)
Seems like a pretty logical argument, how is this fallacious?
If the writers of the Gospels were corrupt men, then sure they would have added loads of stories in the Gospels...but that is not the case.
I was referring to your argument that whatever precedes something must be what that something is based on.
Corrupt men would not be corrupt if they only added stories, they would be corrupt if they added anything which God Himself had not revealed. Which is more damaging an addition, a story about one of the miracles of Jesus (pbuh) or a theological point which Jesus (pbuh) never mentioned?
Samuel and Nathan were prophets that conveyed God's Word to David.
Does a prophet have a prophet???
But in Judaism, David and Solomon are prophets. Do Christianity and Judaism differ between themselves on prophets?
Peace
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
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- Location: South
Peace humble guest,
He is not an angel, but the very Spirit of the LORD.
Now the Jews don't understand who the Holy Spirit is, the Jews did not understand certain things in their religion. Jews still wait fo Elijah to come back! The set up an empty chair at Passover for Elijah! Obviously "Elijah" is John the Baptist, but the Jews just never understood.
The Spirit is a being and He is of the nature of God, of His essense.
He is not an angel or a man.
BUT THIS IS JUST YOUR CONJECTURE!
What Christ said was very wise, and such is reaffirmed in Prophecy.
Isiaah 53:10
Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
Here is proof that what Jesus said was not human conjecture, since it's stated in scripture that it was God's Will that Jesus suffer and be out guilt offering!
Then the writers of the Gospels weren't corrupt!
God reveals to us that He would send His "servant" to bear our iniquities, die with the wicked, and be raised to life! This was clearly spelled out in Isaiah 52-53.
Just I never before hear of David and Solomon as being prophets in Judaism. With David, I can't see how a prophet would have his own prophets (Nathan and Samuel)!
The spirit is always at the disposal of God to bestow upon whomever He chooses
He is not an angel, but the very Spirit of the LORD.
Now the Jews don't understand who the Holy Spirit is, the Jews did not understand certain things in their religion. Jews still wait fo Elijah to come back! The set up an empty chair at Passover for Elijah! Obviously "Elijah" is John the Baptist, but the Jews just never understood.
The Spirit is a being and He is of the nature of God, of His essense.
He is not an angel or a man.
It’s profound, because too often men change the word of God to appease their own philosophical whims, whether intentionally or unintentionally because they choose to conjecture when there is doubt.
BUT THIS IS JUST YOUR CONJECTURE!
What Christ said was very wise, and such is reaffirmed in Prophecy.
Isiaah 53:10
Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
Here is proof that what Jesus said was not human conjecture, since it's stated in scripture that it was God's Will that Jesus suffer and be out guilt offering!
Corrupt men would not be corrupt if they only added stories, they would be corrupt if they added anything which God Himself had not revealed. Which is more damaging an addition, a story about one of the miracles of Jesus (pbuh) or a theological point which Jesus (pbuh) never mentioned?
Then the writers of the Gospels weren't corrupt!
God reveals to us that He would send His "servant" to bear our iniquities, die with the wicked, and be raised to life! This was clearly spelled out in Isaiah 52-53.
But in Judaism, David and Solomon are prophets. Do Christianity and Judaism differ between themselves on prophets?
Just I never before hear of David and Solomon as being prophets in Judaism. With David, I can't see how a prophet would have his own prophets (Nathan and Samuel)!
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
-
humble_guest
- Preacher
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- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 03:12 am
Here is proof that what Jesus said was not human conjecture, since it's stated in scripture that it was God's Will that Jesus suffer and be out guilt offering!
So your proof comes from the words of Jesus found in Scripture? First prove that the Scripture contains the unadultered words of Jesus, perfectly preserved and transmitted since his last days on Earth.
God reveals to us that He would send His "servant" to bear our iniquities, die with the wicked, and be raised to life! This was clearly spelled out in Isaiah 52-53.
That’s what I call “reaching”
http://www.geocities.com/~alyza/Jewish/Isaiah53.html
http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q1208/point2.html
Just I never before hear of David and Solomon as being prophets in Judaism. With David, I can't see how a prophet would have his own prophets (Nathan and Samuel)!
Well according to the Jews, David and Solomon were Prophets as well as kings. Do you believe this or not?
Peace
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
-
Believer
- Preacher
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 03:42 am
- Location: South
Peace humble guest,
I believe the Gospels strongly because of how well backed up and verifed they are in OT prophecy.
I indeed look for proof in what I believe.
What the Jews believe is not true, they do not understand alot of things in their scriptures. They still actually believe that Elijah is coming back! Obviously they do not understand Isaiah 53.
Clearly Isaiah 53 talks about a "servant of the LORD" that suffers a humiliating death who bore the iniquity of us all, it was God's Will that He was guilt offering. He died with the wicked (Crucifixion), and was buried in a rich man's tomb (Joseph of Aramathea).
He was raised from death, the Father "prolonged His days" and He "saw the light of life"
It doesn't take alot of sense to realize that Isaiah 53 is talking about Jesus Christ.
Why won't you believe what is so blatantly evident in scripture?
You can say Jesus wasn't crucified, and that Jesus was just another man, that is your cherished beliefs....only they're dead wrong.
What you say is just not realistic, although maybe is sounds more believable to you, but believing in God's Will may require one to accept and that's all. I accept the Will of God as revealed by the prophets, and all fits together
The servant was a guilt offering for our sins, this was the Will of God not be questioned but to be accepted...that is true Submission, and now that He rose He is a great heavenly King!
All of the nations and people will worship Him one day, as is stated in prophecy.
Not all Jews, just this one site.
Well, God did speak to David, maybe Solomon.
To say they were prophets is a strech considering David had prophets!
Why weren't the other kings mentioned? Maybe you should check other Jewish sites.
So your proof comes from the words of Jesus found in Scripture? First prove that the Scripture contains the unadultered words of Jesus, perfectly preserved and transmitted since his last days on Earth.
I believe the Gospels strongly because of how well backed up and verifed they are in OT prophecy.
I indeed look for proof in what I believe.
That’s what I call “reaching”
http://www.geocities.com/~alyza/Jewish/Isaiah53.html
http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q1208/point2.html
What the Jews believe is not true, they do not understand alot of things in their scriptures. They still actually believe that Elijah is coming back! Obviously they do not understand Isaiah 53.
Clearly Isaiah 53 talks about a "servant of the LORD" that suffers a humiliating death who bore the iniquity of us all, it was God's Will that He was guilt offering. He died with the wicked (Crucifixion), and was buried in a rich man's tomb (Joseph of Aramathea).
He was raised from death, the Father "prolonged His days" and He "saw the light of life"
It doesn't take alot of sense to realize that Isaiah 53 is talking about Jesus Christ.
Why won't you believe what is so blatantly evident in scripture?
You can say Jesus wasn't crucified, and that Jesus was just another man, that is your cherished beliefs....only they're dead wrong.
What you say is just not realistic, although maybe is sounds more believable to you, but believing in God's Will may require one to accept and that's all. I accept the Will of God as revealed by the prophets, and all fits together
The servant was a guilt offering for our sins, this was the Will of God not be questioned but to be accepted...that is true Submission, and now that He rose He is a great heavenly King!
All of the nations and people will worship Him one day, as is stated in prophecy.
Well according to the Jews, David and Solomon were Prophets as well as kings. Do you believe this or not?
Not all Jews, just this one site.
Well, God did speak to David, maybe Solomon.
To say they were prophets is a strech considering David had prophets!
Why weren't the other kings mentioned? Maybe you should check other Jewish sites.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
-
humble_guest
- Preacher
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 03:12 am
I believe the Gospels strongly because of how well backed up and verifed they are in OT prophecy.
I indeed look for proof in what I believe.
But then that’s no different from me because I also agree that the Scripture of Moses foretells the coming of Jesus the Messiah and of the Scripture he would bring. However, my question is do you have evidence that the NT that exists today fits the criteria I have mentioned above?
Why won't you believe what is so blatantly evident in scripture?
I believe EVERYTHING in scripture, so the first logical step is to prove that a text IS scripture. First of all, the Jews differ with Christians on the interpretation of the text. Second of all, can you show that the text recorded exactly the words and life of the Propehts and was transmitted without a broken chain since the day those Prophets died?
but believing in God's Will may require one to accept and that's all. I accept the Will of God as revealed by the prophets…the Will of God [is] not be questioned but to be accepted...that is true Submission
I completely agree with you here! Once you know that what you are reading is undoubtedly the word of God, you need only submit to this overwhelming Truth because it is after all, God’s word and it needs no justification beyond that. However, the critical step is to first DETERMINE what is God’s word. To do that, you need clear and manifest signs that a text is pristine and miraculous.
Not all Jews, just this one site.
Well, God did speak to David, maybe Solomon.
To say they were prophets is a strech considering David had prophets!
Why weren't the other kings mentioned? Maybe you should check other Jewish sites.
Why don’t you help me out here and ask or search with me? Shouldn’t you know whether you believe in them as prophets or not and whether you differ with the Jews on such an important subject? Seriously make an effort to find out, ask someone with knowledge.
Peace
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
-
Believer
- Preacher
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 03:42 am
- Location: South
Peace humble guest,
The scriptures of Moses talks about a "Prophet" like Moses, and yes He is Jesus Christ! You really believe that too?
If that would be true, then you would be a Christian.
Jews flat out misunderstand parts of their scripture.
What the prophets say in their writings is true beacsue it is consistent with he writings of the other prophets. Also, the Gospels ties all of their prophecies about the King together.
Why would you think that the Bible would have been corrupted???
One should trust that devoted Jewish scribes carefully copied their scriptures. Certainly modern Muslim scholars are not less careul copying Quran pages than Jews with the Tanak, and with Christians.
But you just believe what seems like it's right in scripture because you have your beliefs based in the Quran, a book written down 640 years after the Gospels!!!
Yes! You're right too!
Just look through Matthew and count the number of prophecies that Jesus fulfilled, and there are many more in the OT. If the OT practically spells out the Jesus of Chrisianity's life...isn't that miraculous! Isn't that a holy sign???
I justify what I believe because what I believe can be fully traced before Jesus was born. I really don't know how anything can be more convincing than that.
I'll look into it too, but it's really late at night.
I would just like to bring up an very important point, now the OT talks about a grear King that sits at the LORD's right hand, and also it says the SOn of Man is taken up to God's right habd (Pslam 80:17), and David sees this Holy One seated at God's right hand and calls Him "Lord", and Daniel sees the Son of Man being worshipped by the nations, and in Pslam 2 the King is called God's Son!
Now I kindly ask an upfront answer, whywon't you accept this as truth?
Alot of things writtne throughout the Bible clearly reveals something very intriguing!
Matthew 26:64
Jesus answered him, `Yes, I am. Also I tell you that after this you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the One who has all power. You will see him coming on the clouds in the sky!'
When Christ said this, He really summed up what the OT was saying! This really ties together who the Son of Man is, the King that sit's at the LORD's right hand!!
See, you can put this together and see how very much insync Christianity.
But Islam denies anyone sitting at Allah's right hand, and that he as no son, etc....but Islam leaves alot unaccounted for, you know?
The Quran never teaches who the King ats God's right hand is, or who the Son of Man what is worshipped by the nations is, or other very intriguing passages from Jewish scripture.
But then that’s no different from me because I also agree that the Scripture of Moses foretells the coming of Jesus the Messiah and of the Scripture he would bring. However, my question is do you have evidence that the NT that exists today fits the criteria I have mentioned above?
The scriptures of Moses talks about a "Prophet" like Moses, and yes He is Jesus Christ! You really believe that too?
believe EVERYTHING in scripture, so the first logical step is to prove that a text IS scripture. First of all, the Jews differ with Christians on the interpretation of the text. Second of all, can you show that the text recorded exactly the words and life of the Propehts and was transmitted without a broken chain since the day those Prophets died?
If that would be true, then you would be a Christian.
Jews flat out misunderstand parts of their scripture.
What the prophets say in their writings is true beacsue it is consistent with he writings of the other prophets. Also, the Gospels ties all of their prophecies about the King together.
Why would you think that the Bible would have been corrupted???
One should trust that devoted Jewish scribes carefully copied their scriptures. Certainly modern Muslim scholars are not less careul copying Quran pages than Jews with the Tanak, and with Christians.
But you just believe what seems like it's right in scripture because you have your beliefs based in the Quran, a book written down 640 years after the Gospels!!!
I completely agree with you here! Once you know that what you are reading is undoubtedly the word of God, you need only submit to this overwhelming Truth because it is after all, God’s word and it needs no justification beyond that. However, the critical step is to first DETERMINE what is God’s word. To do that, you need clear and manifest signs that a text is pristine and miraculous.
Yes! You're right too!
Just look through Matthew and count the number of prophecies that Jesus fulfilled, and there are many more in the OT. If the OT practically spells out the Jesus of Chrisianity's life...isn't that miraculous! Isn't that a holy sign???
I justify what I believe because what I believe can be fully traced before Jesus was born. I really don't know how anything can be more convincing than that.
Why don’t you help me out here and ask or search with me? Shouldn’t you know whether you believe in them as prophets or not and whether you differ with the Jews on such an important subject? Seriously make an effort to find out, ask someone with knowledge
I'll look into it too, but it's really late at night.
I would just like to bring up an very important point, now the OT talks about a grear King that sits at the LORD's right hand, and also it says the SOn of Man is taken up to God's right habd (Pslam 80:17), and David sees this Holy One seated at God's right hand and calls Him "Lord", and Daniel sees the Son of Man being worshipped by the nations, and in Pslam 2 the King is called God's Son!
Now I kindly ask an upfront answer, whywon't you accept this as truth?
Alot of things writtne throughout the Bible clearly reveals something very intriguing!
Matthew 26:64
Jesus answered him, `Yes, I am. Also I tell you that after this you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the One who has all power. You will see him coming on the clouds in the sky!'
When Christ said this, He really summed up what the OT was saying! This really ties together who the Son of Man is, the King that sit's at the LORD's right hand!!
See, you can put this together and see how very much insync Christianity.
But Islam denies anyone sitting at Allah's right hand, and that he as no son, etc....but Islam leaves alot unaccounted for, you know?
The Quran never teaches who the King ats God's right hand is, or who the Son of Man what is worshipped by the nations is, or other very intriguing passages from Jewish scripture.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
-
humble_guest
- Preacher
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 03:12 am
Why would you think that the Bible would have been corrupted???
One should trust that devoted Jewish scribes carefully copied their scriptures. Certainly modern Muslim scholars are not less careul copying Quran pages than Jews with the Tanak, and with Christians.
It’s not a matter of why I think a book is corrupted, it’s a matter of providing evidence that what the book contains is exactly what Jesus said/did. To do this, you need to show that the book has been transmitted in the same way since Jesus was alive on earth, so that at the very least he could authenticate the very doctrine he brought.
But you just believe what seems like it's right in scripture because you have your beliefs based in the Quran, a book written down 640 years after the Gospels!!!
It doesn’t matter when Scripture is revealed. Don’t you think the unbelievers around the Jews said “you have a book that tells you how the world was created after millions of years of when that happened!!!” Same exact concept. The important point is to know whether a text is the word of God.
Just look through Matthew and count the number of prophecies that Jesus fulfilled, and there are many more in the OT. If the OT practically spells out the Jesus of Chrisianity's life...isn't that miraculous! Isn't that a holy sign???
These are proofs you should show a Jew, because it’s very obvious that Jesus was prophesied and that he is the Messiah and Messenger.
I justify what I believe because what I believe can be fully traced before Jesus was born. I really don't know how anything can be more convincing than that.
But anyone can tell you that the OT does not at all prophecy the Trinitarian concept of God. The OT at best prophesies the coming of Jesus the Messiah and Messenger, but we also know this from the Qur’an.
I'll look into it too, but it's really late at night.
Ok thanks a lot.
I would just like to bring up an very important point, now the OT talks about a grear King that sits at the LORD's right hand, and also it says the SOn of Man is taken up to God's right habd (Pslam 80:17), and David sees this Holy One seated at God's right hand and calls Him "Lord", and Daniel sees the Son of Man being worshipped by the nations, and in Pslam 2 the King is called God's Son!
The Qur’an already tells us that Jesus is alive and is in the presence of God.
And you might want to check this, but in Psalm 2 I believe David the King is calling HIMSELF God’s Son and anointed (by Saul 1 Sam. 16:13), figuratively.
Also take a look here at the Hebrew translation of Psalms “THE Lord said to MY Lord…”
http://www.heartofisrael.org/chazak/articles/ps110.htm
The OT passages at best prophesy Jesus the Messiah, but otherwise are contested by OT scholars.
Peace
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
-
Believer
- Preacher
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 03:42 am
- Location: South
Peace humble guest,
What you need to understand is that Jesus didn't give us a written revelation, but a living revelation. He was the revelation and His word was by mouth and by action.
Now The earliest Gospel was written around 20 years after Jeuss lived, as scholars believe. Not great myths an stories don't form about a person in a few decades, but it takes centuries for myths to form about someone. The Gospels are not fictious books of myths!
If you'd learn anythingthing on this thread, I just want you to realize that the Gospels do not contain made up baseless things about Jesus, but is well backed up in real prophecy.
But the Quran contains stories from the Arabic Infancy Gospels (150 AD) and the Pseudo-Matthee Gospel (400 AD), gospels written centuries afert Jesus was born. I want to see solid proof that these late apocryphal stories of a talking baby Jesus are actual events. If you can't do this, then you are a hypocrite because the Quran contains accounts that are fallacious myths until otherwise proven true.
Isaiah 55:10-11
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
God promises us that He protects His Word.
The revelations that God gives always fulfill their purpose and return fruitful.
The reveltaion given to the Jews was protected by God, and it was fruitful.
Jesus came and gave us the holy Message and did what was expected of Jim by the Father, and the Gospel was fruitful and accomplaised what God wanted.
It's a mixture of ancient evidence(prophectic and some historical) and faith in God that the Gospel we have today is the true authentic life of Jesus.
First of all, God's reveltion wouldn't corrupt as God promised us.
Nothing is wrong with the Torah and Gospel.
And if the Gospel was corript, seems to flaky that Allah would wait 640 years to give the Quran. He'd want to prevent any corrupt doctrine from spreading.
The Quran has not proven to be the Word of God, that would not make logical sense, and it contains too many flaky stories, and has nothing written that humans beings couldn't have written.
To top it off, Islam is the only religion that directly denies Chrisain doctrine. Seems to have been created to counteract Christianity.
Suppose for a minute that Chistianity is true, it would makse sense that Satan would devise a way to counteract Christianity, God's truth.
Also, the NT warns us alot about false prophets that deny Jesus as the Son, and about Satan being capable of appearing as an angel of light, and even angels that give revelation contradicting the Gospel, they are accursed.
There are things you must serioulsly consider before you can say the Quran is the Word of God.
I see alot about freeing that people that live in darkness and things like this, and bringing salvation to the ends of the earth, and being a guilt offering, and being the great King, etc.
Nowhere does it say the Messiah is just a messenger, but a great King, and the Redeemer. Even the word "messiah" does not match with "messenger". Obviously Christ bright us a message, his holy teachings, but He is far from being just a messenger.
"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God." Isaiah 44:6
I see Jewish thought has influenced you.
No mortal man can sit as the right hand of the Almighty!
The image of the Son sitting at the right hand of the Father is consistent with Pslam 110:1 and also with the abover verse I gave you.
Jesus was born of a virgin (indicative that He was preexistent and transcended to earth rather than being craeted by the sex cells of humans.) and Jesus will come back as Judgement!
Jesus is far from being another messenger, let alone a man!
Jesus is the eternal King that God promised would rule all of us!
Prophets were always talking about an eternal King, the Messiah!
He's not an angel or a human like us, but of the nature God like His Spirit.
See, Islam denys this, but leaves alot unnacounted for.
Islam's depiction of Jesus is not realistic when you look at what all of the prophets have said, and even your beliefs about the virgin birth and jusgement...makes you wonder who Jesus really was.
It’s not a matter of why I think a book is corrupted, it’s a matter of providing evidence that what the book contains is exactly what Jesus said/did. To do this, you need to show that the book has been transmitted in the same way since Jesus was alive on earth, so that at the very least he could authenticate the very doctrine he brought.
What you need to understand is that Jesus didn't give us a written revelation, but a living revelation. He was the revelation and His word was by mouth and by action.
Now The earliest Gospel was written around 20 years after Jeuss lived, as scholars believe. Not great myths an stories don't form about a person in a few decades, but it takes centuries for myths to form about someone. The Gospels are not fictious books of myths!
If you'd learn anythingthing on this thread, I just want you to realize that the Gospels do not contain made up baseless things about Jesus, but is well backed up in real prophecy.
But the Quran contains stories from the Arabic Infancy Gospels (150 AD) and the Pseudo-Matthee Gospel (400 AD), gospels written centuries afert Jesus was born. I want to see solid proof that these late apocryphal stories of a talking baby Jesus are actual events. If you can't do this, then you are a hypocrite because the Quran contains accounts that are fallacious myths until otherwise proven true.
Isaiah 55:10-11
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
God promises us that He protects His Word.
The revelations that God gives always fulfill their purpose and return fruitful.
The reveltaion given to the Jews was protected by God, and it was fruitful.
Jesus came and gave us the holy Message and did what was expected of Jim by the Father, and the Gospel was fruitful and accomplaised what God wanted.
It's a mixture of ancient evidence(prophectic and some historical) and faith in God that the Gospel we have today is the true authentic life of Jesus.
It doesn’t matter when Scripture is revealed. Don’t you think the unbelievers around the Jews said “you have a book that tells you how the world was created after millions of years of when that happened!!!” Same exact concept. The important point is to know whether a text is the word of God.
First of all, God's reveltion wouldn't corrupt as God promised us.
Nothing is wrong with the Torah and Gospel.
And if the Gospel was corript, seems to flaky that Allah would wait 640 years to give the Quran. He'd want to prevent any corrupt doctrine from spreading.
The Quran has not proven to be the Word of God, that would not make logical sense, and it contains too many flaky stories, and has nothing written that humans beings couldn't have written.
To top it off, Islam is the only religion that directly denies Chrisain doctrine. Seems to have been created to counteract Christianity.
Suppose for a minute that Chistianity is true, it would makse sense that Satan would devise a way to counteract Christianity, God's truth.
Also, the NT warns us alot about false prophets that deny Jesus as the Son, and about Satan being capable of appearing as an angel of light, and even angels that give revelation contradicting the Gospel, they are accursed.
There are things you must serioulsly consider before you can say the Quran is the Word of God.
These are proofs you should show a Jew, because it’s very obvious that Jesus was prophesied and that he is the Messiah and Messenger
I see alot about freeing that people that live in darkness and things like this, and bringing salvation to the ends of the earth, and being a guilt offering, and being the great King, etc.
Nowhere does it say the Messiah is just a messenger, but a great King, and the Redeemer. Even the word "messiah" does not match with "messenger". Obviously Christ bright us a message, his holy teachings, but He is far from being just a messenger.
But anyone can tell you that the OT does not at all prophecy the Trinitarian concept of God. The OT at best prophesies the coming of Jesus the Messiah and Messenger, but we also know this from the Qur’an.
"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God." Isaiah 44:6
The Qur’an already tells us that Jesus is alive and is in the presence of God.
And you might want to check this, but in Psalm 2 I believe David the King is calling HIMSELF God’s Son and anointed (by Saul 1 Sam. 16:13), figuratively.
Also take a look here at the Hebrew translation of Psalms “THE Lord said to MY Lord…”
http://www.heartofisrael.org/chazak/articles/ps110.htm
The OT passages at best prophesy Jesus the Messiah, but otherwise are contested by OT scholars.
I see Jewish thought has influenced you.
No mortal man can sit as the right hand of the Almighty!
The image of the Son sitting at the right hand of the Father is consistent with Pslam 110:1 and also with the abover verse I gave you.
Jesus was born of a virgin (indicative that He was preexistent and transcended to earth rather than being craeted by the sex cells of humans.) and Jesus will come back as Judgement!
Jesus is far from being another messenger, let alone a man!
Jesus is the eternal King that God promised would rule all of us!
Prophets were always talking about an eternal King, the Messiah!
He's not an angel or a human like us, but of the nature God like His Spirit.
See, Islam denys this, but leaves alot unnacounted for.
Islam's depiction of Jesus is not realistic when you look at what all of the prophets have said, and even your beliefs about the virgin birth and jusgement...makes you wonder who Jesus really was.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
-
littleshepard
- Preacher
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 02:13 am
Peace all I'm back
Too busy with work and we had a hack attack this week
Proverbs 12: 16 "A fool shows his annoyance at once,
but a prudent man overlooks an insult."
Still, you're only escaping by trying to make it seem as if I'm angry but in fact you are the one that is angry You don't even greet me anymore like you used to
and in order to know that it is not factual and just fiction is to read the entire bible from end to end and not depend upon sites that will "sway" your brain into thinking one thing or the other.
Volume:1 Book :4 Number :162 Top
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Whoever performs ablution should clean his nose with water by putting the water in it and then blowing it out, and whoever cleans his private parts with stones should do it with odd number of stones."
You also have to take into consideration if he was really unlettered to begin with A merchant is unlettered????? What about the stories about him buying the scriptures from the jews back in his time? Why did he need to "buy" scriptures when the angel gabriel was supposed to give him the true scripture of God?
No. 65 - Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Once the Prophet wrote a letter or had an idea of writing a letter. The Prophet was told that they (rulers) would not read letters unless they were sealed. So the Prophet got a silver ring made with "Muhammad Allah's Apostle" engraved on it. As if I were just observing its white glitter in the hand of the Prophet
No. 4214 - Narrated 'Aisha:
When the last Verses of Surat-al-Baqara were revealed, the Prophet read them in the Mosque and prohibited the trade of alcoholic liquors. "If the debtor is in difficulty, grant him time till it is easy for him to repay.." (2.280)
Narrated 'Aisha: When the last Verses of Surat-al-Baqara were revealed, Allah's Apostle stood up and recited them before us and then prohibited the trade of alcoholic liquors.
So much for the unlettered prophet.
I got this from someone else
"Sura 2 41
YUSUFALI: And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
PICKTHAL: And believe in that which I reveal, confirming that which ye possess already (of the Scripture), and be not first to disbelieve therein, and part not with My revelations for a trifling price, and keep your duty unto Me.
SHAKIR: And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear.
What exactly would allah mean by saying nor sell my signs for a small price, what signs? what price? notice Yusuf Ali says "nor sell my signs for a small price" while Shakir says "neither take a mean price in exchange" last I read mean and small are opposites what exactly where Shakir and Yusuf Ali reading to get the implications so contradictory?"
Oh..ok
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: I heard the Prophet saying. "Evil omen is in three things: The horse, the woman and the house." Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 110
So the religion that states that women are considered "equal" are also considered "evil omen" too? LOL why can't it be found in men too since this is supposed to be a religion of equality? LOL Sorry...couldn't help it.. LOL . Oh I forgot to list the part that says that women are less intelligent than men as well. Are you sure a real prophet would say such things? I think Dr. Rice would disagree with such statements.
What about those 25 prophets? I'll concentrate on only one. King David was not a prophet. He was a king selected by God to rule over the tribes of Israel, yet Mohammed put him as a prophet. But then again, he is illiterate and not well knowledgable..we have to forgive him of his shortcomings.
All disproved but I will focus on one:
The source of milk
Verily in cattle, there is lesson for you. We give you to drink of what is inside their bellies coming from a conjunction between the contents of the intestine and blood, a milk, pure and pleasant for those who drink it.(16:66)
what type of miracle is this? Anyone could deduce that they can get milk from a cow or a goat as a matter of fact. Actually if you really want to press it, you can get milk from any female species [humans too] if they are lactating. You don't need to be a rocket scientist for that. Also for the blood and guts, well you have to eat it right? I'm sure they didn't have slaughter houses at that time. I'm sure Mohammed and his uncle ripped up a few animals in their time.
ok let me be fair and give a harder one:
'It is He (Allah) Who has let loose the two bodies of flowing waters, one palatable and sweet, and the other saltish and bitter; yet He has made a barrier between them, and this is an insurmountable barrier.' (25:53)
Science has already shown that there is no such barrier. Actually you don't even need science for this. Just go to the rivers and see for yourself.
You mean like how muslims try to do this with the Bible?
and what makes you think it wasn't corrupted in the beginning with its founder and his followers??
It's funny how most people can't even memorize a sentence much along an entire book. I wonder why this was done? A lie on top of a lie on top of another lie starts to make sense and become truth? I don't think so.
Hey bro, I’m not mad at you. I only ask that we stay respectful towards each other otherwise people will take a look at someone’s arrogance and they will be pushed away from faith by representative members of that faith. Remember that this is a public forum and it’s seen by thousands of people. Do you really want to be identified as “the Christian who insulted everyone”? That in itself can be more hurtful to your cause and no amount of links or text can make up for that.
Anyway, I’m surprised you haven’t heard of Barnabas, my book has a chapter on him but here’s a summary:
http://www.understanding-islam.org/rela ... le&raid=26[/quote]
Proverbs 10:18 "He who conceals his hatred has lying lips,
and whoever spreads slander is a fool."
I don't see how I'm being insulting to you. I'm only picking your argument apart, that's all. I don't recall saying bad names to you neither since that's not in my diction these days. Is that insulting to you? Then you shouldn't be in the debate threads. Anyway if you felt that I was insulting to you, I'm sorry. This is not my intention. I don't think you understand me, that's probably why you thought I was angry with you.
As far as this barnabas, according to this site, he's named Joseph Barnabas. That wasn't his name. His original name was JOSEPH and then after a good deed he was named BARNABAS. That's misrepresentation on the part of that site and is misleading.
Let's enter the story room, shall we?
There was this guy named Dan who dated this girl name Kelly. Kelly really loved Dan and started to call him sweet dan. Everyone started calling him this and he really started liking the name so he accepted it. They dated for a while but then got into an agrument and broke up. Sweet Dan started hating to be called that now since it would always remind him of his x-girlfriend. He wanted everyone to call him Dan again and not Sweet Dan since his love now turned into hate and frustration about breaking up with Kelly.
You're still missing the point because you are only looking for something to defend your quran. However by wishing to use something that also contradicts your own "holy book" makes it seem as if you're reaching for expectations that you will never receive since your book was false to begin with.
Let's go back and read my story again. Simple logic will tell you. Now ask yourself this question: If Barnabas didn't agree with Paul so much as he had claimed in that book, why did he not change his name back to what it was originally since it was Paul and his people that named him? Obviously if he wanted to undermine Paul so much and didn't like him since they had that "argument" in the bible, why did he intend to keep on using his name Banabas and not Joseph? And don't you think you should be doing the same thing as well? If you want me to question and look at gob, why not look at the epistil of Barnabas? Why is it that it's so much different from the gob? And also did you read up on the authenticity of this work? Why is it that it seems to quote some of the people from the Middle ages and have alot of knowledge about the middle ages and not the times they are supposed to be talking about [the time of Jesus]?
Proverbs 1: 5 "Let the wise listen and add to their learning,
and let the discerning get guidance."
There is nothing wrong in trying to question your faith. Actually I do thank you very much for helping me to understand not only my faith but yours as well. However, there is such a thing as the spiritual realm which most have not come in contact with and that's the spirit of God. Until you really get to know Him, you will never understand His true word. That's the only answer I can honestly give you.
Proverbs 9:9 "Instruct a wise man and he will be wiser still;
teach a righteous man and he will add to his learning."
I can't explain the relationship with God I have to you because you may not believe me or you may laugh at me and think that I'm just a brainwashed kid. I can't tell you about the miracles He's done for me and my family because you [or maybe someone else] may say, well it's not Him who had the miracles done but you yourself.
Proverbs 13:20 "He who walks with the wise grows wise,
but a companion of fools suffers harm."
I've escaped death [due to unexplained circumstances or just my own downfalls and misgivings] many times due to my faith and my trust in my God. My parents have stuggled to raise me and our family. Many times there was not one soul to help us out of our problems, but my parents trusted upon the Lord and that's all we needed. I can't explain how we got the resources we needed, but I know it was through HIM and for that I thank Him graciously and forever.
It's only huge and important if you are misguided and do not understand the true message God is trying to instill into you. This brings me to another story
It's really a cartoon actually. It was set back in the time just before the French revolution. This woman found a blind girl that looked exactly like the queen of France. The community was getting fed up of the royalists because they didn't care about the lower class. Anyway, this woman devised a plan to make it seem as if the queen was having an affair on her husband. It was true that the queen was distraught with her relationship with her husband, but she wasn't having an affair. It's true that she did meet a man once in a while in private, but according to the story, she was accompanied by a loyal guard.
Anyway they made the blind girl get caught with the same man and she kissed him. He gave her jewels and asked for her to help him overthrow his own government [can't remember where]. He was happy when she said yes because for years she's been telling him no. When they got caught, they found out that it was all a hoax and the lady who planned the coup against the queen cried out to the public that it was true that the queen was giving money to this man. The tax payer's money and having an affair on the king. Oh I forgot to mention that this woman was the mistress of the old king [young king's father] and was kicked out of the palace because the now queen didn't like her. LOL
Anyway, this caused the revolt and the king and queen were put to death and France went into a revolution. Alot of innocent people were put to death- the king, his kids and the queen. How did the truth come out? Well it was just a story.
Why pay for things like this when you can get it for free online? The difference between me and Believer is that I've been where you've been already. I was a cultist [well not very long] and I have been out of faith with God for a time being [well questioning and searching]. I was brainwashed into fear and acceptance. I questioned whether or not Jesus was really the Son of God and things like that. It's only human, especially when you are not filled with the spirit. Even his own disciple still couldn't believe with his own eyes so what can one say about us thousands of years later?
My alternative to you is to read the entire bible. Not only that, read all of the "lost books" of the bible, the fakes [including gop] AND the Catholic Bible. Go to the Pagan sites and the Humanist sites and read what they have to say about religion all together and then you can come back to me and try to sell me a $7.50 book which is probably a waste of time since it will not even make me think twice about my faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
I've been there and have done that already and it's nothing new. It's just the devil's ploy to bring me away from my father and right now I feel just too good and safe with Him to ever want to leave Him again ever.
John 14:6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known who I am, then you would have known who my Father is. From now on you know him and have seen him!"
Peace my friend.
Too busy with work and we had a hack attack this week
humble_guest wrote:Embarrassed? Over what?
Bro I was just pointing out that “tone” can refer to speech as well writing.
Proverbs 12: 16 "A fool shows his annoyance at once,
but a prudent man overlooks an insult."
Still, you're only escaping by trying to make it seem as if I'm angry but in fact you are the one that is angry
You don't even greet me anymore like you used to humble_guest wrote:It still doesn't prove anything. I'm trying to use logic like how you would like to use. If someone gets a "vision" is unable to read and write ["unlettered" as it's termed] he gives off his "stories" to other people. How is this something that can be factual?
Great questions, bro. To understand why the Qur’an as factual you have to consider several things, which are mentioned in the website.
and in order to know that it is not factual and just fiction is to read the entire bible from end to end and not depend upon sites that will "sway" your brain into thinking one thing or the other.
Volume:1 Book :4 Number :162 Top
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Whoever performs ablution should clean his nose with water by putting the water in it and then blowing it out, and whoever cleans his private parts with stones should do it with odd number of stones."
humble_guest wrote: You have to consider, as you said, that the Prophet (pbuh) was unlettered and yet Scripture of inimitable style, eloquence, and profundity was revealed to him over the course of twenty years.
You also have to take into consideration if he was really unlettered to begin with
A merchant is unlettered????? What about the stories about him buying the scriptures from the jews back in his time? Why did he need to "buy" scriptures when the angel gabriel was supposed to give him the true scripture of God? No. 65 - Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Once the Prophet wrote a letter or had an idea of writing a letter. The Prophet was told that they (rulers) would not read letters unless they were sealed. So the Prophet got a silver ring made with "Muhammad Allah's Apostle" engraved on it. As if I were just observing its white glitter in the hand of the Prophet
No. 4214 - Narrated 'Aisha:
When the last Verses of Surat-al-Baqara were revealed, the Prophet read them in the Mosque and prohibited the trade of alcoholic liquors. "If the debtor is in difficulty, grant him time till it is easy for him to repay.." (2.280)
Narrated 'Aisha: When the last Verses of Surat-al-Baqara were revealed, Allah's Apostle stood up and recited them before us and then prohibited the trade of alcoholic liquors.
So much for the unlettered prophet.
I got this from someone else
"Sura 2 41
YUSUFALI: And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
PICKTHAL: And believe in that which I reveal, confirming that which ye possess already (of the Scripture), and be not first to disbelieve therein, and part not with My revelations for a trifling price, and keep your duty unto Me.
SHAKIR: And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear.
What exactly would allah mean by saying nor sell my signs for a small price, what signs? what price? notice Yusuf Ali says "nor sell my signs for a small price" while Shakir says "neither take a mean price in exchange" last I read mean and small are opposites what exactly where Shakir and Yusuf Ali reading to get the implications so contradictory?"
humble_guest wrote: You have to consider the character of the Prophet (pbuh) and his biography to be certain of his prophethood.
Oh..ok
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: I heard the Prophet saying. "Evil omen is in three things: The horse, the woman and the house." Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 110
So the religion that states that women are considered "equal" are also considered "evil omen" too?
LOL why can't it be found in men too since this is supposed to be a religion of equality? LOL Sorry...couldn't help it.. LOL . Oh I forgot to list the part that says that women are less intelligent than men as well. Are you sure a real prophet would say such things? I think Dr. Rice would disagree with such statements. What about those 25 prophets? I'll concentrate on only one. King David was not a prophet. He was a king selected by God to rule over the tribes of Israel, yet Mohammed put him as a prophet.
But then again, he is illiterate and not well knowledgable..we have to forgive him of his shortcomings.humble_guest wrote: You have to look at the Qur’an as a miracle in itself: its prophecies both historical and scientific, its internal and external consistency, its matchlessness. Only those that realize that the Qur’an is divine revelation will believe everything therein, otherwise they will be blind to its revelation and see it as a book with tales of old.
All disproved but I will focus on one:
The source of milk
Verily in cattle, there is lesson for you. We give you to drink of what is inside their bellies coming from a conjunction between the contents of the intestine and blood, a milk, pure and pleasant for those who drink it.(16:66)
what type of miracle is this? Anyone could deduce that they can get milk from a cow or a goat as a matter of fact. Actually if you really want to press it, you can get milk from any female species [humans too] if they are lactating. You don't need to be a rocket scientist for that. Also for the blood and guts, well you have to eat it right? I'm sure they didn't have slaughter houses at that time. I'm sure Mohammed and his uncle ripped up a few animals in their time.
ok let me be fair and give a harder one:
'It is He (Allah) Who has let loose the two bodies of flowing waters, one palatable and sweet, and the other saltish and bitter; yet He has made a barrier between them, and this is an insurmountable barrier.' (25:53)
Science has already shown that there is no such barrier. Actually you don't even need science for this. Just go to the rivers and see for yourself.
humble_guest wrote:Would you not believe that people actually "added" something to this "word" that was given to Mohammed to fufil their own thoughts and desires?
Obviously this is the FIRST thing that comes to anyone’s mind when religion is discussed, because too often religion is hijacked by people with ulterior motives.
You mean like how muslims try to do this with the Bible?
humble_guest wrote: This is why the transmission of the Qur’an is so critical to the understanding of why it could not have been corrupted.
and what makes you think it wasn't corrupted in the beginning with its founder and his followers??
humble_guest wrote: Consider the links above: in different parts of the world, the Qur’an was preserved in two parallel manners, it was COMPLETELY MEMORIZED as well as transcribed. The same copy of the Qur’an can be traced to the mouth of the Prophet (pbuh), a claim that no other religion can make of its respective book and messenger.
It's funny how most people can't even memorize a sentence much along an entire book. I wonder why this was done? A lie on top of a lie on top of another lie starts to make sense and become truth? I don't think so.
humble_guest wrote:Can I ask a question? How is it that you can accept this document from someone that wasn't even a disciple of Christ? Where did this person get his information from? As far as my knowledge is the 12 disciples of Christ are:
1-John, Judas, Peter, Andrew, 2 James, Bartholomew, Thomas, Phillip, Thaddeus and Simon.
I don't see "Barnabas" if you know something new, please tell me.
Hey bro, I’m not mad at you. I only ask that we stay respectful towards each other otherwise people will take a look at someone’s arrogance and they will be pushed away from faith by representative members of that faith. Remember that this is a public forum and it’s seen by thousands of people. Do you really want to be identified as “the Christian who insulted everyone”? That in itself can be more hurtful to your cause and no amount of links or text can make up for that.
Anyway, I’m surprised you haven’t heard of Barnabas, my book has a chapter on him but here’s a summary:
http://www.understanding-islam.org/rela ... le&raid=26[/quote]
Proverbs 10:18 "He who conceals his hatred has lying lips,
and whoever spreads slander is a fool."
I don't see how I'm being insulting to you. I'm only picking your argument apart, that's all. I don't recall saying bad names to you neither since that's not in my diction these days. Is that insulting to you? Then you shouldn't be in the debate threads.
Anyway if you felt that I was insulting to you, I'm sorry. This is not my intention. I don't think you understand me, that's probably why you thought I was angry with you. As far as this barnabas, according to this site, he's named Joseph Barnabas. That wasn't his name. His original name was JOSEPH and then after a good deed he was named BARNABAS. That's misrepresentation on the part of that site and is misleading.
Let's enter the story room, shall we?
There was this guy named Dan who dated this girl name Kelly. Kelly really loved Dan and started to call him sweet dan.
Everyone started calling him this and he really started liking the name so he accepted it. They dated for a while but then got into an agrument and broke up. Sweet Dan started hating to be called that now since it would always remind him of his x-girlfriend. He wanted everyone to call him Dan again and not Sweet Dan since his love now turned into hate and frustration about breaking up with Kelly.humble_guest wrote:My main point for asking these things is that in order to use something as legitimate proof, you must first indeed prove that the document you are using is legitimate to begin with. If you cannot prove that, then all your arguments are debunked.
I agree with you there. In fact, that’s exactly what I wish you would consider for the Bible itself. Here’s what you need to know about the importance of the GoB: it offers a plausible alternative to the account of the crucifixion given in the NT which does not contradict the Qur’an. By this very fact alone, the GoB is considered a more reliable account of the life of Jesus (pbuh) than is the NT.
You're still missing the point because you are only looking for something to defend your quran. However by wishing to use something that also contradicts your own "holy book" makes it seem as if you're reaching for expectations that you will never receive since your book was false to begin with.
Let's go back and read my story again. Simple logic will tell you. Now ask yourself this question: If Barnabas didn't agree with Paul so much as he had claimed in that book, why did he not change his name back to what it was originally since it was Paul and his people that named him? Obviously if he wanted to undermine Paul so much and didn't like him since they had that "argument" in the bible, why did he intend to keep on using his name Banabas and not Joseph? And don't you think you should be doing the same thing as well? If you want me to question and look at gob, why not look at the epistil of Barnabas? Why is it that it's so much different from the gob? And also did you read up on the authenticity of this work? Why is it that it seems to quote some of the people from the Middle ages and have alot of knowledge about the middle ages and not the times they are supposed to be talking about [the time of Jesus]?
humble_guest wrote:Have you ever wondered to yourself exactly what people talked about when they challenge the integrity of the NT text? Obviously any rational person would want to ask, well if what the NT says happened didn’t happen, what DID happen.
Proverbs 1: 5 "Let the wise listen and add to their learning,
and let the discerning get guidance."
There is nothing wrong in trying to question your faith. Actually I do thank you very much for helping me to understand not only my faith but yours as well. However, there is such a thing as the spiritual realm which most have not come in contact with and that's the spirit of God. Until you really get to know Him, you will never understand His true word. That's the only answer I can honestly give you.
Proverbs 9:9 "Instruct a wise man and he will be wiser still;
teach a righteous man and he will add to his learning."
I can't explain the relationship with God I have to you because you may not believe me or you may laugh at me and think that I'm just a brainwashed kid. I can't tell you about the miracles He's done for me and my family because you [or maybe someone else] may say, well it's not Him who had the miracles done but you yourself.
Proverbs 13:20 "He who walks with the wise grows wise,
but a companion of fools suffers harm."
I've escaped death [due to unexplained circumstances or just my own downfalls and misgivings] many times due to my faith and my trust in my God. My parents have stuggled to raise me and our family. Many times there was not one soul to help us out of our problems, but my parents trusted upon the Lord and that's all we needed. I can't explain how we got the resources we needed, but I know it was through HIM and for that I thank Him graciously and forever.
humble_guest wrote: How did the events occur, when and why did the historical corruptions take place, deliberately or not. This topic is huge but important, and there’s no way it would fit on a thread.
It's only huge and important if you are misguided and do not understand the true message God is trying to instill into you. This brings me to another story
It's really a cartoon actually. It was set back in the time just before the French revolution. This woman found a blind girl that looked exactly like the queen of France. The community was getting fed up of the royalists because they didn't care about the lower class. Anyway, this woman devised a plan to make it seem as if the queen was having an affair on her husband. It was true that the queen was distraught with her relationship with her husband, but she wasn't having an affair. It's true that she did meet a man once in a while in private, but according to the story, she was accompanied by a loyal guard.
Anyway they made the blind girl get caught with the same man and she kissed him. He gave her jewels and asked for her to help him overthrow his own government [can't remember where]. He was happy when she said yes because for years she's been telling him no. When they got caught, they found out that it was all a hoax and the lady who planned the coup against the queen cried out to the public that it was true that the queen was giving money to this man. The tax payer's money and having an affair on the king. Oh I forgot to mention that this woman was the mistress of the old king [young king's father] and was kicked out of the palace because the now queen didn't like her. LOL
Anyway, this caused the revolt and the king and queen were put to death and France went into a revolution. Alot of innocent people were put to death- the king, his kids and the queen. How did the truth come out? Well it was just a story.
humble_guest wrote: However, this topic is PRECISELY what the book I’ve suggested to you outlines. This is the only reason why I’d like you to read it. So you can finally have a clear alternative understanding of what happened instead of just assuming that people are reaching around for excuses without any clear alternative for the Biblical account. You’re not willing to pay $7.50 for that? If someone ever claimed they could pinpoint when the Qur’an was forged I would pay much more than that just to hear them expound their allegations.
Peace
Why pay for things like this when you can get it for free online?
The difference between me and Believer is that I've been where you've been already. I was a cultist [well not very long] and I have been out of faith with God for a time being [well questioning and searching]. I was brainwashed into fear and acceptance. I questioned whether or not Jesus was really the Son of God and things like that. It's only human, especially when you are not filled with the spirit. Even his own disciple still couldn't believe with his own eyes so what can one say about us thousands of years later?
My alternative to you is to read the entire bible. Not only that, read all of the "lost books" of the bible, the fakes [including gop] AND the Catholic Bible. Go to the Pagan sites and the Humanist sites and read what they have to say about religion all together and then you can come back to me and try to sell me a $7.50 book which is probably a waste of time since it will not even make me think twice about my faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
I've been there and have done that already and it's nothing new. It's just the devil's ploy to bring me away from my father and right now I feel just too good and safe with Him to ever want to leave Him again ever.
John 14:6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known who I am, then you would have known who my Father is. From now on you know him and have seen him!"
Peace my friend.
Jesus is Love
-
humble_guest
- Preacher
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 03:12 am
What you need to understand is that Jesus didn't give us a written revelation, but a living revelation. He was the revelation and His word was by mouth and by action.
Yes I know that. What vexes me is why wasn’t anyone furiously writing everything that Jesus said and did down while he was still on Earth? Why leave tens of years (I’d like to see your evidence that it was in ~50AD) of doubt until any written account was endeavored?
Not great myths an stories don't form about a person in a few decades, but it takes centuries for myths to form about someone. The Gospels are not fictious books of myths!
Nobody said anything about frivolous myths and stories. For one thing, there would be no need to make up myths or anything like that because the society at the time was highly philosophized with strong pagan elements. Second of all, the virgin birth of Jesus (pbuh) was a powerful, powerful miracle which not many understood. Add that to the ambiguity surrounding the events of the alleged crucifixion and you have A LOT of questions which Jesus is no longer present to answer. This is the danger of having a Scripture be written AFTER the disappearance of the Messenger, because the Messenger never had a chance to authorize what was said and verify it. The most reliable Scripture is written during the life of the messenger, authenticated by him, and transmitted in that way to the present day.
If you can't do this, then you are a hypocrite because the Quran contains accounts that are fallacious myths until otherwise proven true.
I really want you to understand this. This isn’t about taking as true whichever version of the story was CLOSEST to the events. It’s about taking as truth ALL divine revelation. You need to carefully study the Qur’an to realize why people believed it was divine before even reading what it contains, simply because of how it was revealed and the nature of its transmission. When you have the word of God tell you how the Universe was created, even if that’s millions or billions of years later, you hold the Truth regardless of time. You think the Bible holds a more accurate account simply because it was written earlier? Would you say that Zoroastrian Scripture which describes fantastic, mythical ways in which the Universe was created is more accurate than the Torah? Or do you take the latter as Truth because you know it’s divinely revealed?
God promises us that He protects His Word.
God does protect his word. God insures that people have been worshipping Him and submitting to him Alone since the time of Adam. The Message has always been preserved, but if people don’t guard their Scriptures as rigorously as they’re supposed to, they devise a great sin because they are being negligent. They will lose or distort the message while others still carry it.
It's a mixture of ancient evidence(prophectic and some historical) and faith in God that the Gospel we have today is the true authentic life of Jesus.
In matters of religion you can’t leave ANYTHING to doubt. The FIRST thing you should do when you choose to believe in God and live your life according to His Will is to ask yourself “how do I know that I’m reading the word of God”. You have to use your intellect and make sure that the words you are reading came out of a Prophet’s mouth. Any ounce of doubt means that one is being seriously misled.
And if the Gospel was corript, seems to flaky that Allah would wait 640 years to give the Quran. He'd want to prevent any corrupt doctrine from spreading.
Believer, I seriously want you to read the book I’ve suggested for this exact reason. Most people think that people have been believing in the Trinity for 570 years and then all of a sudden the QUr’an is revealed. That is absolutely not true. Trinitarian and Unitarian Christians were at war with each other for hundreds of years between Jesus’ revelations and the Qur’an. Haven’t you ever wondered why practically 99% of the Christians of the middle east immediately converted to Islam when it was revealed? It was because they were already Unitarian Christians and the Qur’an fit perfectly with the true doctrine of Jesus they had preserved. There’s so much history here I wish you would just take the time to read the book for a clear perspective.
The Quran has not proven to be the Word of God, that would not make logical sense, and it contains too many flaky stories, and has nothing written that humans beings couldn't have written.
Bro, I wish you’d make a serious effort to study the Qur’an because otherwise I think you’re being misled by people who want nothing more than to leave you in darkness. Nothing can be PROVEN to be the word of God, but the Qur’an is by far the best preserved and most miraculous of all Scriptures. Its revelations are evaluated against this criteria, not whether you think they are flaky. And most definitely if you study how it was revealed you would know that an unlettered man (and I contend even a literate and learned man) could not have produced such a work in however many years, with all its eloquence, consistency, prophecy, and miracles.
To top it off, Islam is the only religion that directly denies Chrisain doctrine. Seems to have been created to counteract Christianity.
That’s not true, bro. The only major difference between Islam and Christianity is the Trinity and Salvation. Wouldn’t you agree that Islam and Judaism are much closer about the Divine Unity and Salvation than is Christianity and Judaism?
Suppose for a minute that Chistianity is true, it would makse sense that Satan would devise a way to counteract Christianity, God's truth.
Absolutely man, and look at how many deviant faiths there exist after Christianity AND Islam that undermine both of their messages. However, God always demands of his worshippers that they use their intellect. Your perspective is “well the Bible says that anyone who doesn’t agree with the Bible is bringing a false Gospel from Satan” But you first have to consider whether the Bible itself did not accurately transmit Jesus’ teachings and YET had the disclaimer “anyone who doesn’t agree with the Bible is bringing a false Gospel from Satan” then you have people locked in a faith obliviously batting away true guidance just because it doesn’t match their idea. Before you base your life on a text, you have to test it to verify it is from God. You can’t just pick up what your parents picked up and follow it because it says “everything else is false”. Everyone is accountable for putting in an effort to know what they are reading and what they COULD be reading. And to be honest with you, you have a tragically warped account of the Qur’an because you’ve been collecting libelous accusations about it from all the apologetic work you’ve been reading. Instead of doing objective analysis, you’re just building an insurmountable wall of spurious bias against it.
Also, the NT warns us alot about false prophets that deny Jesus as the Son, and about Satan being capable of appearing as an angel of light, and even angels that give revelation contradicting the Gospel, they are accursed.
There are things you must serioulsly consider before you can say the Quran is the Word of God.
Of course I’ve considered this! Do you know how many religions have emerged after Islam? Everyone needs to guard the truth from false prophets and deviation, that’s a given. But the definition of “deviation” can’t just be “anything other than what I’m reading”. I believe in the Qur’an because I am sure it is revelation, not just because it warns believers to guard against deviance and other false prophets because EVERY faith will warn against that. You should do the same and think critically and logically. Anyone can add a disclaimer “and anything else that is said is false” in fact everyone’s scripture says that. So you first have to know for sure that YOU in fact are holding the Truth to begin with.
Nowhere does it say the Messiah is just a messenger, but a great King, and the Redeemer. Even the word "messiah" does not match with "messenger". Obviously Christ bright us a message, his holy teachings, but He is far from being just a messenger.
But this is exactly what people starting to think AFTER Jesus (pbuh) left the Earth. They couldn’t handle the virgin birth as MERELY a miracle, and when they were unsure about the events of the crucifixion they were overwhelmed and wanted to explain it theologically. You have to know what Jesus (pbuh) said about God for sure, you have to know how Jesus spoke, lived, worshipped and how everyone living around him did these things while he was on earth. You can’t rely on a Scripture he had never seen before, written years after he was gone, he had to have witnessed it to make sure it contained absolutely ZERO deviance.
"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God." Isaiah 44:6
Bro, please read the Jewish interpretation for that text. It seems that everyone is using the ambiguous pronouns to connote what they want.
I see Jewish thought has influenced you.
No I’m just showing you what the other interpretation is. And who best to interpret it than a Jewish counterpart. I’m in no position to interpret it.
No mortal man can sit as the right hand of the Almighty!
The image of the Son sitting at the right hand of the Father is consistent with Pslam 110:1 and also with the abover verse I gave you.
But did you read the alternative interpretations of those verses? Their claims go all the way down to incorrect translations.
Jesus was born of a virgin (indicative that He was preexistent and transcended to earth rather than being craeted by the sex cells of humans.) and Jesus will come back as Judgement! Jesus is far from being another messenger, let alone a man!
Only God can explain the miracle of the virgin birth to mankind as revelation. One shouldn’t deduce that the virgin birth meant preexistence if God did not reveal it so. The virgin birth is one of the most powerful signs of the coming of the Messiah, it did not indicate of itself any preexistence. Adam was created without a mother or father. Eve was created without a mother. Jesus was created without a father. These are all miracles of creation and signs, but men have interpreted more into that than God has revealed.
See, Islam denys this, but leaves alot unnacounted for.
Actually if you read the book it talks a lot about Jesus in the hadith texts, stories you would be most interested to read. Also, the QUr’an reveals the most critical element about faith relating to Jesus. He is the Messiah, Messenger, but is not to be worshipped.
Islam's depiction of Jesus is not realistic when you look at what all of the prophets have said, and even your beliefs about the virgin birth and jusgement...makes you wonder who Jesus really was.
Do me a favor and read the book and then tell me if the Islamic version doesn’t make sense. I’m sure all your questions and concerns and information gaps will be filled, but I can’t do that in less than 300 pages of text.
Still, you're only escaping by trying to make it seem as if I'm angry but in fact you are the one that is angry You don't even greet me anymore like you used to
Sorry bro, peace to you always,
and in order to know that it is not factual and just fiction is to read the entire bible from end to end and not depend upon sites that will "sway" your brain into thinking one thing or the other.
I agree there’s a lot of propaganda out there. But here’s the key. Before you even open up a Scripture to read it, you have to know where it came from, otherwise you are pitting the words of God against the words of men and then choosing which you like best. You can just line up ALL the supposed scriptures of the world and then choose your favorite. Scripture has to have signs to show that it is the word of God, it must come from the mouth of the messenger, it can’t be broken in its transmission. Even before you get to theological content, what prophecies does it contain? What internal miracles and eloquence?
You also have to take into consideration if he was really unlettered to begin with A merchant is unlettered????? What about the stories about him buying the scriptures from the jews back in his time? Why did he need to "buy" scriptures when the angel gabriel was supposed to give him the true scripture of God?
Be careful that you rely only on true historical accounts and not just ones written to misguide you. If you are sincere, read this:
http://www.ymofmd.com/books/prophethood ... _intro.htm
Also, the thing about the QUr’an is that it not only could not have been written by an unlettered man, it’s eloquence surpasses even the most eloquent men. It’s miraculous even if you DON’T believe that the Prophet (pbuh) was unlettered. But don’t just reduce it to its language, think of its internalized miracles.
No. 65 - Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Once the Prophet wrote a letter or had an idea of writing a letter. The Prophet was told that they (rulers) would not read letters unless they were sealed. So the Prophet got a silver ring made with "Muhammad Allah's Apostle" engraved on it. As if I were just observing its white glitter in the hand of the Prophet
No. 4214 - Narrated 'Aisha:
When the last Verses of Surat-al-Baqara were revealed, the Prophet read them in the Mosque and prohibited the trade of alcoholic liquors. "If the debtor is in difficulty, grant him time till it is easy for him to repay.." (2.280)
Narrated 'Aisha: When the last Verses of Surat-al-Baqara were revealed, Allah's Apostle stood up and recited them before us and then prohibited the trade of alcoholic liquors.
So much for the unlettered prophet.
The Prophet always had his companions draft letters and treaties for him. The nature of the Arabic language is very broad with terms like “write” and “read”. For example, the first hadith you presented could just as easily mean “dictated” and when you consider the CONTEXT of the Prophet’s (pbuh) life, that becomes more evident. Because think about what you’re saying, the claim that he was unlettered isn’t new, it was stated during his lifetime. You think he would be openly writing things if according to you he was only purporting to be unlettered?
And seriously, in the second example “read” means “recited”. Not only means, it is the same word. If hundreds had memorized the Qur’an during the time of the Prophet, don’t you think the Prophet himself would be foremost among them? You think he would need it written down to read it? Think about that.
Sura 2 41
YUSUFALI: And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
“The point to be noted here is that from the very beginning of mankind on earth, Allah has been sending His prophets to guide humanity along the Right Path. Whenever the people deviated from Divine Guidance, prophets came to correct them and lead them back to the Path of Allah. Thus after the time of Moses, when the Children of Israel distorted the Divine Message, many prophets came to them, of whom the most important was Jesus the Messiah.
In fact, the coming of Jesus had been clearly foretold and the Jews ought to have believed in him and followed him when he came. But selfish obstinacy prevented most of them from receiving the Messiah when he appeared; they ridiculed him and sought to crucify him. The Holy Qur’an narrates how Allah Almighty saved Jesus from an accursed death on the cross. Obviously the Jews who rejected Jesus were transgressors who broke God’s covenant and forfeited the special favor of God.”
The Jews were profiting from their way of life and refused to change even when Jesus (pbuh) came to correct their faiths and reestablish the Mosaic Laws as they were revealed. Instead, the Jews (especially the elite) bartered Truth for exclusive rights to interpretation and so on.
Oh..ok
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: I heard the Prophet saying. "Evil omen is in three things: The horse, the woman and the house." Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 110
So the religion that states that women are considered "equal" are also considered "evil omen" too? LOL why can't it be found in men too since this is supposed to be a religion of equality? LOL Sorry...couldn't help it.. LOL . Oh I forgot to list the part that says that women are less intelligent than men as well. Are you sure a real prophet would say such things? I think Dr. Rice would disagree with such statements.
Bro, I hope you know that not all hadiths are of the same authenticity! There were a lot of disbelievers who purposely attributed sayings to the Prophet to ridicule him and divert the faiths of believers. They like yourself thought this amusing. So whenever you present a hadith, you also have to present it’s authenticity rating. This is based on whether it has a solid and large transmission of reliable persons going all the way back to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). THEN you have to check the biographies of each person to make sure they are reliable and don’t have a history of malice against Islam or people in general or even senility. THEN you have to note whether there are ever any broken links in the chain. Then you have to note how many chains have transmitted the same hadith. The science of hadith is too deep to go into, but I think the reason you find many hadiths amusing is exactly because many ARE frivolous and slanderous plagiarisms by the enemies of Islam. Do you understand this or should I expand more on the topic? Not all hadiths have the same weight, some we know were certainly words of the Prophet, and some are obviously plagiarism simply because of who transmitted them and how. This is where most apologetics get their hadiths and enjoy themselves, oblivious to the fact that Muslims regard much of the same hadiths as plagiarisms.
Verily in cattle, there is lesson for you. We give you to drink of what is inside their bellies coming from a conjunction between the contents of the intestine and blood, a milk, pure and pleasant for those who drink it.(16:66)
“The constituents of milk are secreted by the mammary glands. These are nourished, as it were, by the product of food digestion brought to them via the bloodstream. Blood therefore is the collecter and conductor of what has been extracted from food, and it brings nutrition to the mammary glands, the producers of milk, as it does to any organ.
It was totally unknown at the time of the Prophet and has been understood only in recent times.“
http://www.jalyat.net/productofmilk.htm
Science has already shown that there is no such barrier. Actually you don't even need science for this. Just go to the rivers and see for yourself.
I don’t know how much you know about marine biology, but have you ever research the salinity/pH of different but adjacent bodies of water? For example, the Meditarranean Sea connects to the Atlantic, and yet they have two entirely different statistical water contents which never mix. You can quite literally take your meter and go through a few meters across where the Med. And the Atlantic meat and it will change back and forth. However, each body of water retains its molality and other stats. Want some more info on that?
http://www.jalyat.net/sea.htm
http://www.jalyat.net/river.htm
It's funny how most people can't even memorize a sentence much along an entire book. I wonder why this was done? A lie on top of a lie on top of another lie starts to make sense and become truth? I don't think so.
Don’t allow your heart to be thick with contempt and disbelief bro, to this day Muslims memorize the entire Qur’an. At the time of its initial transmission it was memorized by thousands in different reaches of the Muslim world to ensure that no collusion was even possible. Not only that, but it was simultaneously recorded. No other Scripture in the world was so meticulously guarded against corruption.
If you want me to question and look at gob, why not look at the epistil of Barnabas? Why is it that it's so much different from the gob? And also did you read up on the authenticity of this work? Why is it that it seems to quote some of the people from the Middle ages and have alot of knowledge about the middle ages and not the times they are supposed to be talking about [the time of Jesus]?
Bushmaster has decided [for now] to check the book I’ve suggested at the beginning of this thread out. I think you should do the same. You can read the 50 some pages on the GoB and epistle and tell me what you think.However, there is such a thing as the spiritual realm which most have not come in contact with and that's the spirit of God. Until you really get to know Him, you will never understand His true word. That's the only answer I can honestly give you.
That’s true, but God demands the spiritual as well as the intellectual, otherwise you are just a blind believer. Why do you think so many religions ask their believers to “shut out the mind”? Mostly because they don’t have authentic revelation to back their meditative religions. They can’t reasonably argue that their Scriptures are divine revelation, so they say that you must reach nirvana and then you will be convinced. Interesting that one should first live by Scripture in order to test whether it is authentic…doesn’t seem that the believer has done his part to ensure that he indeed is living by the word of God.I can't explain the relationship with God I have to you because you may not believe me or you may laugh at me and think that I'm just a brainwashed kid. I can't tell you about the miracles He's done for me and my family because you [or maybe someone else] may say, well it's not Him who had the miracles done but you yourself.
God is Truth. Undoubtedly there are elements of Truth in all religions. I’m sure at the peak of your faithfulness you’ve contemplated the Divine Unity of God and that’s God has blessed you in your life. But God does not withhold his blessings from people in this world based on their beliefs and acts in this world. There are rich and prosperous and happy atheists after all…this world is not yet judged.I questioned whether or not Jesus was really the Son of God and things like that.
Well, if you’ve firmly decided you never want to be ^^^ there, then you won’t be able to handle the book. But I would call this blind faith. Truth stands clearly above falsehood and you should have no reservations to read anything if you claim to have the Truth. But at least you’ve openly made your decision after I had made the suggestion to you. This is what happens most of the time, people love habitudes more than they love the Truth. They seek comfort in the familiar rather than in the Truth and are averse to change. Anyone who is not willing to change for God does not truly believe in Him.I've escaped death [due to unexplained circumstances or just my own downfalls and misgivings] many times due to my faith and my trust in my God. My parents have stuggled to raise me and our family. Many times there was not one soul to help us out of our problems, but my parents trusted upon the Lord and that's all we needed. I can't explain how we got the resources we needed, but I know it was through HIM and for that I thank Him graciously and forever.
Thank God.
Peace bro
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Good post littleshepard!
Peace humble guest,
We only know what we can find so far.
What we have was not written long after Jesus lived.
Now what is the ine Gospels is not myths or pagan, as what we read is traceable to OT prophecy which is a powerful way to authenticate the Gospels.
You wouldn't think that?
As God told us that His revelations always return to Him fruitful and fulflill His Will, why do you lack so much faith friend??? You need faith to begin with to believe in God.
You're sounding alot like Atheists and Agnostics.
The more authentic and reliable something is, the closer to the event it is. That is the truth.
God gives us a mind to use for analyzing, and people neevr hear alot of Jesus's childhood in the Gospels, so they get curious and make up stuff to appease theire curiostiy, and lo and behold the Quran has baby stories of Jesus! What is a good mind to make of this???
Now see, you think the Message became distorted over time, but you are dead wrong. I can see how very true the Gospels are as they confirm what the Prophets said. It's not all bout people worshipping God, God had a very advanced plan that was revealed in the Gospels.
Since you lack spiritual insight, you can not to see this.
Well, I don't have even an ounce of doubt.
What you say is true, but what about baby stories of Jesus from flaky apocryphal gospels??? The Infancy Gospels were written too late to even be considered as a nook of the Bible. Such stories were nonexistent until they were favbricated and written down. Clearly the Quran has myths, that is a reality.
Unless you cannot disprove what I have said, you're arguments againt the Gospels are null because you're not applying the same logic to your beliefs.
Every Christians believed that Jesus was the Lord and the Spirit was from God, and the Father was God, Sure a formal definition of the Trinity was compiled an Nicaea, but that doesn't mean it was invented.
Arius was a heretical bishop that started this big Unitarian thing.
He taught that Jesus was the highest created being, but not God.
Islam was influenced by the Arian heresy.
Alot heretical Christians sought refuge in the East, and they had various unusual beliefs. Plus they were pressured to convert to Islam. But certainly 99% didn't convert. Armenian Christians are true Christians and they do not convert to Islam.
Interesting how you say the Unitarians kept the "true doctrine of Jesus" when they were an heretical group that emerged later. You use so much backwards logic, well that will not give you a clear unbiased view on things.
I have done research and have compared Quran writings with historical preserved apocryphal writings and I have found that such stories are identical. I'm not following some misleading evidence.
If the Quran as preserved, well so were many acient writings both religious and secular. Your "proofs" for the Quran are not at all poof to me. Again, Islam leaves alot unaccounted.
Unless you can show me a piece of the original Quran that Muhammed wrote down, cave scribbling or a rock or on animal hides of whatever...then well you don't have the original Quran.
There are superficial similiarities between Islam and Judaism, but it ends there. The two closest religions are Chritianity and Judaism.
No where in Judaism is God even referred to as single in unity.
God is seen as a great mystery, and He revealed Himself to Moses as "I am who I man"
Your views of salvation are of Persian origin.
Zoroastrians believe that those who do good deeds go to heaven, and those with less good deeds than bad deeds go to hell.
Islam reminds me alot of the Persian religion.
I have dome my research and have used my intellect and have seen that Christianity is the Truth, and have seen that Islam is not true because of the Quran's misconceptions. Misconceptions and ingorance are from Satan, God is not like that.
I know that there is a Son of Man in heaven that is being worshipped by the people, and I know there is a great King that sits next to God. These things were revealed before Jesus came and the Gospels shows me exactly what all of this means, it's Jesus Christ. Islam doesn't tell you anything about what was formerly revealed.
Sorry to break it to you, but the Quran greatly deviates from Judeo-Christianity. It wanes more to Persian conception of God and salvation, and apocryphal beliefs surrounding the Prophets.
God does NOT work parlour tricks!
All that God does has a very significant purpose.
Jesus's virgin birth had deep significance.
He was a man not from this world, not a part of mankind.
The events if the crucifixion are given in Pslam 22 and Isaiag 53. Nothing about it was inventd, all revealed.
Psalm 80:17 talks about a SOn of Man that was raised to God's right hand. Checkh that out, seems consitent with Psalm 110:1.
All of this fits Jesus of the Gospels very well!
Understand, humble, that Jesus was not created by two sex cells.
Jesus was not related to any human being in this world.
Jesus was a purely heavenly being that transcended into our world.
Jesus even tell us that He is not from this world.
Funny considering many people worshipped Jesus while He lived, and Daniel sees a vision of the Son of Man being worsipped by the nations and peoples.
Obviously the Hadiths are wrong and Jesus is to be worshipped.
May the Lord guide you always.
Peace humble guest,
Yes I know that. What vexes me is why wasn’t anyone furiously writing everything that Jesus said and did down while he was still on Earth? Why leave tens of years (I’d like to see your evidence that it was in ~50AD) of doubt until any written account was endeavored?
We only know what we can find so far.
What we have was not written long after Jesus lived.
Now what is the ine Gospels is not myths or pagan, as what we read is traceable to OT prophecy which is a powerful way to authenticate the Gospels.
You wouldn't think that?
Nobody said anything about frivolous myths and stories. For one thing, there would be no need to make up myths or anything like that because the society at the time was highly philosophized with strong pagan elements. Second of all, the virgin birth of Jesus (pbuh) was a powerful, powerful miracle which not many understood. Add that to the ambiguity surrounding the events of the alleged crucifixion and you have A LOT of questions which Jesus is no longer present to answer. This is the danger of having a Scripture be written AFTER the disappearance of the Messenger, because the Messenger never had a chance to authorize what was said and verify it. The most reliable Scripture is written during the life of the messenger, authenticated by him, and transmitted in that way to the present day.
As God told us that His revelations always return to Him fruitful and fulflill His Will, why do you lack so much faith friend??? You need faith to begin with to believe in God.
You're sounding alot like Atheists and Agnostics.
I really want you to understand this. This isn’t about taking as true whichever version of the story was CLOSEST to the events. It’s about taking as truth ALL divine revelation. You need to carefully study the Qur’an to realize why people believed it was divine before even reading what it contains, simply because of how it was revealed and the nature of its transmission. When you have the word of God tell you how the Universe was created, even if that’s millions or billions of years later, you hold the Truth regardless of time. You think the Bible holds a more accurate account simply because it was written earlier? Would you say that Zoroastrian Scripture which describes fantastic, mythical ways in which the Universe was created is more accurate than the Torah? Or do you take the latter as Truth because you know it’s divinely revealed?
The more authentic and reliable something is, the closer to the event it is. That is the truth.
God gives us a mind to use for analyzing, and people neevr hear alot of Jesus's childhood in the Gospels, so they get curious and make up stuff to appease theire curiostiy, and lo and behold the Quran has baby stories of Jesus! What is a good mind to make of this???
God does protect his word. God insures that people have been worshipping Him and submitting to him Alone since the time of Adam. The Message has always been preserved, but if people don’t guard their Scriptures as rigorously as they’re supposed to, they devise a great sin because they are being negligent. They will lose or distort the message while others still carry it.
Now see, you think the Message became distorted over time, but you are dead wrong. I can see how very true the Gospels are as they confirm what the Prophets said. It's not all bout people worshipping God, God had a very advanced plan that was revealed in the Gospels.
Since you lack spiritual insight, you can not to see this.
In matters of religion you can’t leave ANYTHING to doubt. The FIRST thing you should do when you choose to believe in God and live your life according to His Will is to ask yourself “how do I know that I’m reading the word of God”. You have to use your intellect and make sure that the words you are reading came out of a Prophet’s mouth. Any ounce of doubt means that one is being seriously misled.
Well, I don't have even an ounce of doubt.
What you say is true, but what about baby stories of Jesus from flaky apocryphal gospels??? The Infancy Gospels were written too late to even be considered as a nook of the Bible. Such stories were nonexistent until they were favbricated and written down. Clearly the Quran has myths, that is a reality.
Unless you cannot disprove what I have said, you're arguments againt the Gospels are null because you're not applying the same logic to your beliefs.
Believer, I seriously want you to read the book I’ve suggested for this exact reason. Most people think that people have been believing in the Trinity for 570 years and then all of a sudden the QUr’an is revealed. That is absolutely not true. Trinitarian and Unitarian Christians were at war with each other for hundreds of years between Jesus’ revelations and the Qur’an. Haven’t you ever wondered why practically 99% of the Christians of the middle east immediately converted to Islam when it was revealed? It was because they were already Unitarian Christians and the Qur’an fit perfectly with the true doctrine of Jesus they had preserved. There’s so much history here I wish you would just take the time to read the book for a clear perspective.
Every Christians believed that Jesus was the Lord and the Spirit was from God, and the Father was God, Sure a formal definition of the Trinity was compiled an Nicaea, but that doesn't mean it was invented.
Arius was a heretical bishop that started this big Unitarian thing.
He taught that Jesus was the highest created being, but not God.
Islam was influenced by the Arian heresy.
Alot heretical Christians sought refuge in the East, and they had various unusual beliefs. Plus they were pressured to convert to Islam. But certainly 99% didn't convert. Armenian Christians are true Christians and they do not convert to Islam.
Interesting how you say the Unitarians kept the "true doctrine of Jesus" when they were an heretical group that emerged later. You use so much backwards logic, well that will not give you a clear unbiased view on things.
Bro, I wish you’d make a serious effort to study the Qur’an because otherwise I think you’re being misled by people who want nothing more than to leave you in darkness. Nothing can be PROVEN to be the word of God, but the Qur’an is by far the best preserved and most miraculous of all Scriptures. Its revelations are evaluated against this criteria, not whether you think they are flaky. And most definitely if you study how it was revealed you would know that an unlettered man (and I contend even a literate and learned man) could not have produced such a work in however many years, with all its eloquence, consistency, prophecy, and miracles.
I have done research and have compared Quran writings with historical preserved apocryphal writings and I have found that such stories are identical. I'm not following some misleading evidence.
If the Quran as preserved, well so were many acient writings both religious and secular. Your "proofs" for the Quran are not at all poof to me. Again, Islam leaves alot unaccounted.
Unless you can show me a piece of the original Quran that Muhammed wrote down, cave scribbling or a rock or on animal hides of whatever...then well you don't have the original Quran.
That’s not true, bro. The only major difference between Islam and Christianity is the Trinity and Salvation. Wouldn’t you agree that Islam and Judaism are much closer about the Divine Unity and Salvation than is Christianity and Judaism?
There are superficial similiarities between Islam and Judaism, but it ends there. The two closest religions are Chritianity and Judaism.
No where in Judaism is God even referred to as single in unity.
God is seen as a great mystery, and He revealed Himself to Moses as "I am who I man"
Your views of salvation are of Persian origin.
Zoroastrians believe that those who do good deeds go to heaven, and those with less good deeds than bad deeds go to hell.
Islam reminds me alot of the Persian religion.
Absolutely man, and look at how many deviant faiths there exist after Christianity AND Islam that undermine both of their messages. However, God always demands of his worshippers that they use their intellect. Your perspective is “well the Bible says that anyone who doesn’t agree with the Bible is bringing a false Gospel from Satan” But you first have to consider whether the Bible itself did not accurately transmit Jesus’ teachings and YET had the disclaimer “anyone who doesn’t agree with the Bible is bringing a false Gospel from Satan” then you have people locked in a faith obliviously batting away true guidance just because it doesn’t match their idea. Before you base your life on a text, you have to test it to verify it is from God. You can’t just pick up what your parents picked up and follow it because it says “everything else is false”. Everyone is accountable for putting in an effort to know what they are reading and what they COULD be reading. And to be honest with you, you have a tragically warped account of the Qur’an because you’ve been collecting libelous accusations about it from all the apologetic work you’ve been reading. Instead of doing objective analysis, you’re just building an insurmountable wall of spurious bias against it.
I have dome my research and have used my intellect and have seen that Christianity is the Truth, and have seen that Islam is not true because of the Quran's misconceptions. Misconceptions and ingorance are from Satan, God is not like that.
I know that there is a Son of Man in heaven that is being worshipped by the people, and I know there is a great King that sits next to God. These things were revealed before Jesus came and the Gospels shows me exactly what all of this means, it's Jesus Christ. Islam doesn't tell you anything about what was formerly revealed.
Of course I’ve considered this! Do you know how many religions have emerged after Islam? Everyone needs to guard the truth from false prophets and deviation, that’s a given. But the definition of “deviation” can’t just be “anything other than what I’m reading”. I believe in the Qur’an because I am sure it is revelation, not just because it warns believers to guard against deviance and other false prophets because EVERY faith will warn against that. You should do the same and think critically and logically. Anyone can add a disclaimer “and anything else that is said is false” in fact everyone’s scripture says that. So you first have to know for sure that YOU in fact are holding the Truth to begin with.
Sorry to break it to you, but the Quran greatly deviates from Judeo-Christianity. It wanes more to Persian conception of God and salvation, and apocryphal beliefs surrounding the Prophets.
But this is exactly what people starting to think AFTER Jesus (pbuh) left the Earth. They couldn’t handle the virgin birth as MERELY a miracle, and when they were unsure about the events of the crucifixion they were overwhelmed and wanted to explain it theologically. You have to know what Jesus (pbuh) said about God for sure, you have to know how Jesus spoke, lived, worshipped and how everyone living around him did these things while he was on earth. You can’t rely on a Scripture he had never seen before, written years after he was gone, he had to have witnessed it to make sure it contained absolutely ZERO deviance.
God does NOT work parlour tricks!
All that God does has a very significant purpose.
Jesus's virgin birth had deep significance.
He was a man not from this world, not a part of mankind.
The events if the crucifixion are given in Pslam 22 and Isaiag 53. Nothing about it was inventd, all revealed.
But did you read the alternative interpretations of those verses? Their claims go all the way down to incorrect translations.
Psalm 80:17 talks about a SOn of Man that was raised to God's right hand. Checkh that out, seems consitent with Psalm 110:1.
All of this fits Jesus of the Gospels very well!
Only God can explain the miracle of the virgin birth to mankind as revelation. One shouldn’t deduce that the virgin birth meant preexistence if God did not reveal it so. The virgin birth is one of the most powerful signs of the coming of the Messiah, it did not indicate of itself any preexistence. Adam was created without a mother or father. Eve was created without a mother. Jesus was created without a father. These are all miracles of creation and signs, but men have interpreted more into that than God has revealed.
Understand, humble, that Jesus was not created by two sex cells.
Jesus was not related to any human being in this world.
Jesus was a purely heavenly being that transcended into our world.
Jesus even tell us that He is not from this world.
Actually if you read the book it talks a lot about Jesus in the hadith texts, stories you would be most interested to read. Also, the QUr’an reveals the most critical element about faith relating to Jesus. He is the Messiah, Messenger, but is not to be worshipped.
Funny considering many people worshipped Jesus while He lived, and Daniel sees a vision of the Son of Man being worsipped by the nations and peoples.
Obviously the Hadiths are wrong and Jesus is to be worshipped.
May the Lord guide you always.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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littleshepard
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Peace humble guest
Then why is it that you think you know exactly where the Koran came from? How do you know, by all of the so-called evidence you gave to me makes you believe that it's true? Or is it because this was already instilled into you when you were a young child and didn't know any better? Was it because you are scared to death that someone other than allah will kill you if you should leave because you know it's not true. Exactly how do you know which verses in the bible are true to support your quran when you think that most of the bible is corrupt to begin with?
The difference between Christianity and other religions is because we have a close and personal relationship with our God almighty. We know what we have to do [whether or not we choose to listen] and how to go about our lives. The proof is in what our heavenly father shows to us through our daily relationship with Him. Of course the Bible helps us to undestand what is expected of us as good christians, but it is He who provides us with our daily needs. It's more spiritual than techinical and that's something alot of people of the flesh cannot understand. It's like I'm talking English to you when you can onlly understand French.
I'm sorry but you can't accuse me of doing such things. I would think Islam is the culprit for doing that. I believe the entire bible to be true. I believe in Jesus Christ as my saviour. Jesus is and will always be the final messenger for me and He's proved it to me and I'm sure alot of other followers many times over and over again. I don't need someone like Muhammed or Joseph Smith to tell me other wise because they are dellusional.
Well what prophecies are you looking for and what determines miracles and eloquence. I used to know a homeless man who was uneducated and never went to school. He was one of the smartess people I've ever known. Does that constitute him for candidacy for prophethood?
Forget it. I already read the hadiths and provided them to you. If you don't want to accept the truth sincerly that your prophet was a hoax, then that's on you, not me.
Well if you have other works in your hand that are just as "eloquent" as you put it, it's really not hard to plagarize. I think I got an F in school for plagerizing something I didn't copy. I just wanted to use the format to make it seem as if I really knew what I was talking about. I got an F anyway.
So then that would question the validity of the entier koran and the hadiths. You mean the ones that were around him were lying? dictated? I don't think so. He could write, but played that he couldn't because he wanted to portray that islam is the correct religion when it is not. The only miracle islam has produced is how it has brainwashed so many people into thinking that it's the final religion above all.
Peole can memorize anything and pass it onto someone else and then make a flaw somewhere in the pattern. And where is the proof that so many people memorized the quran. I would like to ask my cousin if he's already memorized the quran. Actually you know what? when I go back to work next week I'm going to ask all of those women that converted how many years ago if they memorized the quran and then I'll come back to you with my answer. I'll even ask some of the arab muslim men at my job as well. The fact still remains that he could read and write.
Why would mohameed need to buy scriptures from people anyway if he got the direct revelation from god through the angel? That doesn't make sense.
I understand but I don't think you understand. The same exact logic you're trying to make other people believe is not the logic you want to use for yourself. If these so called Hadiths are not true, how do you really know which ones are true? If the so called hadiths are written by the ones that were closely around mohammed and they were supposedly the ones that wrote the quran for him since he couldn't read or write [which is not true], then how can you even accept the validity of the koran to begin with? Plagerism is found in the koran from the arabian folk tales and from the acrophyl testimonies of baby jesus speaking from birth ect.
ANY layperson could tell that milk came from the breast. So what? There is no miracle in that.
PH has nothing to do with a barrier. PH has to do with the basic of acidic nature of fluid such as water. water can either be an acid or a base. Oil can be considered basic and water can be considered basic but they cannot mix. Acid is acidic and water can be acidic and they can still mix together. Check the Atlantic ocean next to the meditteranean sea water by the gibralter sil. There are no barriers, in fact there are mixtures of both salt water and fresh water by certain percentages. I think in Norway is it? The sweet water mixes with the ocean as well.
The point of the matter is that it's useless to even memorize a book of lies. That's my point. It doesn't matter to me if someone wants to memorize something. What's the point when the thing you're memorizing isn't even going to save you when the time comes? The corruption is the koran itself so the corruption has already been memorized.
Like I told you before, been there, done that, constantly going through it everyday with your muslim brothers on my back. However I already know the truth. Jesus also warned about those who are in sheep's clothing. I personally am not interested. I'm learning everyday about islam and how its effect on the people are devastating. How much of a brain washing cult it is and how mohammed used "religion" to get his way. He is one of the most evil people I've ever read about in history.
I and my other brothers and sisters are here to reveal the REAL TRUTH to you if only you open your eyes and ask God with a sincere heart as to what you want to do with your life. A leader like mohammed is not someone I would ever want to follow to be in contact with god. Jesus is definately the one I would follow forever to be with my Father in heaven. If you say that Jesus will come back, break the cross and throw a pig like me into hell because I didn't follow the laviscious life of mohammed, then so be it. That's how I'll have it because I know that MY FATHER, the TRUE GOD will never leave me or any who believe in His words and testimonies:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
May God Bless you and may you find eternal peace, my friend.
humble_guest wrote:and in order to know that it is not factual and just fiction is to read the entire bible from end to end and not depend upon sites that will "sway" your brain into thinking one thing or the other.
I agree there’s a lot of propaganda out there. But here’s the key. Before you even open up a Scripture to read it, you have to know where it came from, otherwise you are pitting the words of God against the words of men and then choosing which you like best.
Then why is it that you think you know exactly where the Koran came from? How do you know, by all of the so-called evidence you gave to me makes you believe that it's true? Or is it because this was already instilled into you when you were a young child and didn't know any better? Was it because you are scared to death that someone other than allah will kill you if you should leave because you know it's not true. Exactly how do you know which verses in the bible are true to support your quran when you think that most of the bible is corrupt to begin with?
The difference between Christianity and other religions is because we have a close and personal relationship with our God almighty. We know what we have to do [whether or not we choose to listen] and how to go about our lives. The proof is in what our heavenly father shows to us through our daily relationship with Him. Of course the Bible helps us to undestand what is expected of us as good christians, but it is He who provides us with our daily needs. It's more spiritual than techinical and that's something alot of people of the flesh cannot understand. It's like I'm talking English to you when you can onlly understand French.
humble_guest wrote: You can just line up ALL the supposed scriptures of the world and then choose your favorite. Scripture has to have signs to show that it is the word of God, it must come from the mouth of the messenger, it can’t be broken in its transmission.
I'm sorry but you can't accuse me of doing such things. I would think Islam is the culprit for doing that. I believe the entire bible to be true. I believe in Jesus Christ as my saviour. Jesus is and will always be the final messenger for me and He's proved it to me and I'm sure alot of other followers many times over and over again. I don't need someone like Muhammed or Joseph Smith to tell me other wise because they are dellusional.
humble_guest wrote: Even before you get to theological content, what prophecies does it contain? What internal miracles and eloquence?
Well what prophecies are you looking for and what determines miracles and eloquence. I used to know a homeless man who was uneducated and never went to school. He was one of the smartess people I've ever known. Does that constitute him for candidacy for prophethood?
humble_guest wrote:You also have to take into consideration if he was really unlettered to begin with A merchant is unlettered????? What about the stories about him buying the scriptures from the jews back in his time? Why did he need to "buy" scriptures when the angel gabriel was supposed to give him the true scripture of God?
Be careful that you rely only on true historical accounts and not just ones written to misguide you. If you are sincere, read this:
http://www.ymofmd.com/books/prophethood ... _intro.htm
Forget it. I already read the hadiths and provided them to you. If you don't want to accept the truth sincerly that your prophet was a hoax, then that's on you, not me.
humble_guest wrote:Also, the thing about the QUr’an is that it not only could not have been written by an unlettered man, it’s eloquence surpasses even the most eloquent men. It’s miraculous even if you DON’T believe that the Prophet (pbuh) was unlettered. But don’t just reduce it to its language, think of its internalized miracles.
Well if you have other works in your hand that are just as "eloquent" as you put it, it's really not hard to plagarize. I think I got an F in school for plagerizing something I didn't copy. I just wanted to use the format to make it seem as if I really knew what I was talking about. I got an F anyway.
humble_guest wrote:No. 65 - Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Once the Prophet wrote a letter or had an idea of writing a letter. The Prophet was told that they (rulers) would not read letters unless they were sealed. So the Prophet got a silver ring made with "Muhammad Allah's Apostle" engraved on it. As if I were just observing its white glitter in the hand of the Prophet
No. 4214 - Narrated 'Aisha:
When the last Verses of Surat-al-Baqara were revealed, the Prophet read them in the Mosque and prohibited the trade of alcoholic liquors. "If the debtor is in difficulty, grant him time till it is easy for him to repay.." (2.280)
Narrated 'Aisha: When the last Verses of Surat-al-Baqara were revealed, Allah's Apostle stood up and recited them before us and then prohibited the trade of alcoholic liquors.
So much for the unlettered prophet.
The Prophet always had his companions draft letters and treaties for him. The nature of the Arabic language is very broad with terms like “write” and “read”. For example, the first hadith you presented could just as easily mean “dictated” and when you consider the CONTEXT of the Prophet’s (pbuh) life, that becomes more evident. Because think about what you’re saying, the claim that he was unlettered isn’t new, it was stated during his lifetime. You think he would be openly writing things if according to you he was only purporting to be unlettered?
So then that would question the validity of the entier koran and the hadiths. You mean the ones that were around him were lying? dictated? I don't think so. He could write, but played that he couldn't because he wanted to portray that islam is the correct religion when it is not. The only miracle islam has produced is how it has brainwashed so many people into thinking that it's the final religion above all.
humble_guest wrote:And seriously, in the second example “read” means “recited”. Not only means, it is the same word. If hundreds had memorized the Qur’an during the time of the Prophet, don’t you think the Prophet himself would be foremost among them? You think he would need it written down to read it? Think about that.
Peole can memorize anything and pass it onto someone else and then make a flaw somewhere in the pattern. And where is the proof that so many people memorized the quran. I would like to ask my cousin if he's already memorized the quran. Actually you know what? when I go back to work next week I'm going to ask all of those women that converted how many years ago if they memorized the quran and then I'll come back to you with my answer. I'll even ask some of the arab muslim men at my job as well. The fact still remains that he could read and write.
humble_guest wrote:Sura 2 41
YUSUFALI: And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
“The point to be noted here is that from the very beginning of mankind on earth, Allah has been sending His prophets to guide humanity along the Right Path. Whenever the people deviated from Divine Guidance, prophets came to correct them and lead them back to the Path of Allah. Thus after the time of Moses, when the Children of Israel distorted the Divine Message, many prophets came to them, of whom the most important was Jesus the Messiah.
Why would mohameed need to buy scriptures from people anyway if he got the direct revelation from god through the angel? That doesn't make sense.
humble_guest wrote:Oh..ok
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: I heard the Prophet saying. "Evil omen is in three things: The horse, the woman and the house." Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 110
So the religion that states that women are considered "equal" are also considered "evil omen" too? LOL why can't it be found in men too since this is supposed to be a religion of equality? LOL Sorry...couldn't help it.. LOL . Oh I forgot to list the part that says that women are less intelligent than men as well. Are you sure a real prophet would say such things? I think Dr. Rice would disagree with such statements.
Bro, I hope you know that not all hadiths are of the same authenticity! There were a lot of disbelievers who purposely attributed sayings to the Prophet to ridicule him and divert the faiths of believers. They like yourself thought this amusing. So whenever you present a hadith, you also have to present it’s authenticity rating. This is based on whether it has a solid and large transmission of reliable persons going all the way back to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). THEN you have to check the biographies of each person to make sure they are reliable and don’t have a history of malice against Islam or people in general or even senility. THEN you have to note whether there are ever any broken links in the chain. Then you have to note how many chains have transmitted the same hadith. The science of hadith is too deep to go into, but I think the reason you find many hadiths amusing is exactly because many ARE frivolous and slanderous plagiarisms by the enemies of Islam. Do you understand this or should I expand more on the topic?
I understand but I don't think you understand. The same exact logic you're trying to make other people believe is not the logic you want to use for yourself. If these so called Hadiths are not true, how do you really know which ones are true? If the so called hadiths are written by the ones that were closely around mohammed and they were supposedly the ones that wrote the quran for him since he couldn't read or write [which is not true], then how can you even accept the validity of the koran to begin with? Plagerism is found in the koran from the arabian folk tales and from the acrophyl testimonies of baby jesus speaking from birth ect.
humble_guest wrote:Verily in cattle, there is lesson for you. We give you to drink of what is inside their bellies coming from a conjunction between the contents of the intestine and blood, a milk, pure and pleasant for those who drink it.(16:66)
“The constituents of milk are secreted by the mammary glands. These are nourished, as it were, by the product of food digestion brought to them via the bloodstream. Blood therefore is the collecter and conductor of what has been extracted from food, and it brings nutrition to the mammary glands, the producers of milk, as it does to any organ.
It was totally unknown at the time of the Prophet and has been understood only in recent times.“
http://www.jalyat.net/productofmilk.htm
ANY layperson could tell that milk came from the breast. So what? There is no miracle in that.
humble_guest wrote:Science has already shown that there is no such barrier. Actually you don't even need science for this. Just go to the rivers and see for yourself.
I don’t know how much you know about marine biology, but have you ever research the salinity/pH of different but adjacent bodies of water? For example, the Meditarranean Sea connects to the Atlantic, and yet they have two entirely different statistical water contents which never mix. You can quite literally take your meter and go through a few meters across where the Med. And the Atlantic meat and it will change back and forth. However, each body of water retains its molality and other stats. Want some more info on that?
http://www.jalyat.net/sea.htm
http://www.jalyat.net/river.htm
PH has nothing to do with a barrier. PH has to do with the basic of acidic nature of fluid such as water. water can either be an acid or a base. Oil can be considered basic and water can be considered basic but they cannot mix. Acid is acidic and water can be acidic and they can still mix together. Check the Atlantic ocean next to the meditteranean sea water by the gibralter sil. There are no barriers, in fact there are mixtures of both salt water and fresh water by certain percentages. I think in Norway is it? The sweet water mixes with the ocean as well.
humble_guest wrote:It's funny how most people can't even memorize a sentence much along an entire book. I wonder why this was done? A lie on top of a lie on top of another lie starts to make sense and become truth? I don't think so.
Don’t allow your heart to be thick with contempt and disbelief bro, to this day Muslims memorize the entire Qur’an.
The point of the matter is that it's useless to even memorize a book of lies. That's my point. It doesn't matter to me if someone wants to memorize something. What's the point when the thing you're memorizing isn't even going to save you when the time comes? The corruption is the koran itself so the corruption has already been memorized.
humble_guest wrote:If you want me to question and look at gob, why not look at the epistil of Barnabas? Why is it that it's so much different from the gob? And also did you read up on the authenticity of this work? Why is it that it seems to quote some of the people from the Middle ages and have alot of knowledge about the middle ages and not the times they are supposed to be talking about [the time of Jesus]?
Bushmaster has decided [for now] to check the book I’ve suggested at the beginning of this thread out. I think you should do the same. You can read the 50 some pages on the GoB and epistle and tell me what you think.
I already have, have you? The point is that they both contradict each other. Also gob contradicts the koran. I think you should check out the validity of the gob before you go on telling others to read books that are useless for the debate at hand. You also didn't regard those questions I asked you about Joseph using the name "barnabas" but that's ok.humble_guest wrote:However, there is such a thing as the spiritual realm which most have not come in contact with and that's the spirit of God. Until you really get to know Him, you will never understand His true word. That's the only answer I can honestly give you.
That’s true, but God demands the spiritual as well as the intellectual, otherwise you are just a blind believer. Why do you think so many religions ask their believers to “shut out the mind”?
Most religions ask this because they know it's better "brainwashing" Love is a spiritual thing, it's not intellectual, it's purely spiritual and that's what our God is all about. Pure love.humble_guest wrote:because they don’t have authentic revelation to back their meditative religions. They can’t reasonably argue that their Scriptures are divine revelation, so they say that you must reach nirvana and then you will be convinced. Interesting that one should first live by Scripture in order to test whether it is authentic…doesn’t seem that the believer has done his part to ensure that he indeed is living by the word of God.
Well so far, to me, Islam is losing the test of 'proof' as well. I don't need proof from islam because I've already found it in Jesus Christ.
I can't find the part where God said to believe and trust in Him but don't search for Him [physical being]...hmm...can't remember... but people like mohammed and islam fly in the face of God all the time because you cannot accept that someone loved you so much that He would give up His only begotten Son for you life of sin.humble_guest wrote:I can't explain the relationship with God I have to you because you may not believe me or you may laugh at me and think that I'm just a brainwashed kid. I can't tell you about the miracles He's done for me and my family because you [or maybe someone else] may say, well it's not Him who had the miracles done but you yourself.
God is Truth. Undoubtedly there are elements of Truth in all religions. I’m sure at the peak of your faithfulness you’ve contemplated the Divine Unity of God and that’s God has blessed you in your life. But God does not withhold his blessings from people in this world based on their beliefs and acts in this world. There are rich and prosperous and happy atheists after all…this world is not yet judged.
I wasn't talking about riches actually because I'm not rich and neither is my family. My point was that we were in a situation with no way out and all was about to be lost, but through prayer we made it through [don't know how to explain that]. I know there are alot of rich muslims too [although not that many] and I know they will be judged accordingly as well.humble_guest wrote:I questioned whether or not Jesus was really the Son of God and things like that.
Well, if you’ve firmly decided you never want to be ^^^ there, then you won’t be able to handle the book. But I would call this blind faith. Truth stands clearly above falsehood and you should have no reservations to read anything if you claim to have the Truth. But at least you’ve openly made your decision after I had made the suggestion to you. This is what happens most of the time, people love habitudes more than they love the Truth. They seek comfort in the familiar rather than in the Truth and are averse to change. Anyone who is not willing to change for God does not truly believe in Him.
Like I told you before, been there, done that, constantly going through it everyday with your muslim brothers on my back. However I already know the truth. Jesus also warned about those who are in sheep's clothing. I personally am not interested. I'm learning everyday about islam and how its effect on the people are devastating. How much of a brain washing cult it is and how mohammed used "religion" to get his way. He is one of the most evil people I've ever read about in history.
I and my other brothers and sisters are here to reveal the REAL TRUTH to you if only you open your eyes and ask God with a sincere heart as to what you want to do with your life. A leader like mohammed is not someone I would ever want to follow to be in contact with god. Jesus is definately the one I would follow forever to be with my Father in heaven. If you say that Jesus will come back, break the cross and throw a pig like me into hell because I didn't follow the laviscious life of mohammed, then so be it. That's how I'll have it because I know that MY FATHER, the TRUE GOD will never leave me or any who believe in His words and testimonies:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
May God Bless you and may you find eternal peace, my friend.
Jesus is Love
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Liberate
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Yes I know that. What vexes me is why wasn’t anyone furiously writing everything that Jesus said and did down while he was still on Earth? Why leave tens of years (I’d like to see your evidence that it was in ~50AD) of doubt until any written account was endeavored?
This ofcourse implies paper and ink were readily available 2,000 years ago to the common man; I hope you have heard of the Muratorian fragments that date the completion of the whole new testament by (AD 70 - AD 170). Coincidentally your hadiths claim Mohammed was never around to forsee the compilation of the koran into a book even Zaid was worried when Uthmann asked him to compile the koran into a book and he claimed how could he do something the prophet didn't do. If you want to claim religious superiority over maintenance of your holy text thats a moot point, because your koran was never written with the guidance of the prophet, when the third caliph came to make some more changes Mohammed was not there, when a further 7 amendments were made by a succeeding caliph Mohammed was not there, all this changes and compilation of the koran were made without a prophetic advice.
Nobody said anything about frivolous myths and stories. For one thing, there would be no need to make up myths or anything like that because the society at the time was highly philosophized with strong pagan elements. Second of all, the virgin birth of Jesus (pbuh) was a powerful, powerful miracle which not many understood. Add that to the ambiguity surrounding the events of the alleged crucifixion and you have A LOT of questions which Jesus is no longer present to answer. This is the danger of having a Scripture be written AFTER the disappearance of the Messenger, because the Messenger never had a chance to authorize what was said and verify it. The most reliable Scripture is written during the life of the messenger, authenticated by him, and transmitted in that way to the present day.
See my post above, your koran funny enough never elaborates on the why Jesus was born of a virgin the koran doesn't expand on a great many things, the reason it gives for Jesus miraculous birth is apparently allah just decided it, do you honestly think God acts on a whim like that, jews and christians believe God does things for valid reasons that are known to his creation soon enough. I suggest you read the reading ways of the koran published by arabic scholars of Kuwaiti university 1982 to get just how your koran was transmitted to the present day.
I really want you to understand this. This isn’t about taking as true whichever version of the story was CLOSEST to the events. It’s about taking as truth ALL divine revelation. You need to carefully study the Qur’an to realize why people believed it was divine before even reading what it contains, simply because of how it was revealed and the nature of its transmission. When you have the word of God tell you how the Universe was created, even if that’s millions or billions of years later, you hold the Truth regardless of time. You think the Bible holds a more accurate account simply because it was written earlier? Would you say that Zoroastrian Scripture which describes fantastic, mythical ways in which the Universe was created is more accurate than the Torah? Or do you take the latter as Truth because you know it’s divinely revealed?
You have just contradicted the point you have been trying to hammer in your first two posts, which was the story closest to the events in your opinion that was written down in the presence of the prophets is the one you should go for, now you change your tune when it applies to apocryphal jewish and christian fables incorporated almost verbatim into your koran?
Would you care to elaborate for us how the koran is a miracle (the number 19 is not associated with God in the jewish or christian scriptures by the way), I wonder if you have heard of Al Tabari (part of the sunnah) the respected muslim historian his history of islam precedes any hadith it was translated during 1984-1997 by New york university press, I can assure you no sane individual after reading it will accept islam as coming from God. This is what it says about creation:
Tabari I:188 “Jews came to the Prophet and asked him about the creation of the heavens and the earth. He said, ‘Allah created the earth on Sunday and Monday. He created the mountains and the uses they possess on Tuesday. On Wednesday He created trees, water, cities and the cultivated and barren land. On Thursday, He created heaven. On Friday, He created stars, the sun, moon, and angels, until three hours remained. In the first of these three hours, He created the terms, who would live and who would die. In the second, He cast harm upon everything that is useful for mankind. And in the third, Adam, and had him dwell in Paradise.’”
Tabari I:189 “The Messenger took me by the hand and said, ‘Allah created soil on Saturday. Upon it, He created the mountains on Sunday. He created the trees on Wednesday, scattered animals on Thursday, and made Adam as the last of His creatures after the afternoon prayer on Friday.’”
Now before you scream this is corruption and you have never heard of it and it isn't in the koran I would like you to bear in mind the things that are omitted in the koran as to the beginnings of this earth, remember this was written before any of the hadiths were collected, and the author proclaims their authenticity "come directly from Mohammed"
God does protect his word. God insures that people have been worshipping Him and submitting to him Alone since the time of Adam. The Message has always been preserved, but if people don’t guard their Scriptures as rigorously as they’re supposed to, they devise a great sin because they are being negligent. They will lose or distort the message while others still carry it.
You believe God protected His word by allowing pagan arabs only to have the true message of His word? this same pagan arabs that worshipped the stars, moon and stones suddenly had the true religon from God just hidden and waiting to be revealed by Mohammed, there is a fundamental logical fallacy here where do we distinguish between what is the true religion of God and blatant paganism being practiced by the pagan sabaens?. If the pagan sabeans practiced salat, hajj poilgrimages and circumnavigating the ka'ba how come Jesus didn't do it or Moses or Abraham? if this is the religion that follows the previous religions of God why is it the pagans only are practicing this ritual?
You mention God protects His word, interesting the koran says "To you (Muhammad) We revealed the book in truth, attesting to (the truth of) that which IS between his (its) hands from the scripture (the Torah and Gospel), and guarding it (wa muhaiminan `alaihi)."sura 5:48
According to the Arabic Lexicon muhaimin comes from the root verb haymana, and is related to such words as yuhayminu and hayamanah. These terms can mean ‘to protect, to witness, to keep trust, to back up and to support’ as well as Ameen, control, watch, preserve. Hans Wehr's Arabic dictionary states that muhaimin means protector or watcher.
The question you should ask yourself is why an all knowing Omniscient God would allow his two previouis revelations to get corrupted simultaenously (ignore the scrolls found in the caves of Qumran for a second).
In matters of religion you can’t leave ANYTHING to doubt. The FIRST thing you should do when you choose to believe in God and live your life according to His Will is to ask yourself “how do I know that I’m reading the word of God”. You have to use your intellect and make sure that the words you are reading came out of a Prophet’s mouth. Any ounce of doubt means that one is being seriously misled.
Brilliant point, let us apply it to the koran how do we know that what we are reading is from God, first off would God have such contradictory sentences pervading His whole scripture promising eternal doom, and eternal torment for his creatures and in the next line for verily allah is merciful?
Would an all knowing an omniscient God produce sura 2:226 and sura 9:5, surely an all knowing and omniscient God would not abrogate/change/alter his revelations repeatedly over a 22 year period, the old testament spanned 2000+ years there is no abrogation in it, the new testament spanned 70-120 years there is no abrogation in it, yet a 22 year span of alledged revelation has numerous; some schools of islamic jurispundence say 150+ abrogations something is obviously wrong here can this be the same God?. If you want to argue that I am taking it out of context of the historical period it relates to then how can this be the final REVELATION FOR ALL MANKIND if it only refers to local events in the arabian peninsula.
A simple ounce of doubt example:
James 5:12
Above all, my brothers, do not swear - not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Let your "Yes" be yes, and your "No," no, or you will be condemned.
"Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord.’ "But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. "Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. "But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes‘ or ‘No, no‘; and anything beyond these is of evil. (Mt 5:33-37)
"I swear by the moon, And the night when it departs, And the daybreak when it shines; Surely it (hell) is one of the gravest (misfortunes)" (Koran 74:32)
The previous revelations says we should not swear now along comes islam and allah/mohammed/first person decides it is ok to swear by of all things the moon, night and sun?. Simple logic tells me if the two previous revelations are progressive and along comes a third so called revelation that contradicts both the first and second revelation the third reelation is in error.
Believer, I seriously want you to read the book I’ve suggested for this exact reason. Most people think that people have been believing in the Trinity for 570 years and then all of a sudden the QUr’an is revealed. That is absolutely not true. Trinitarian and Unitarian Christians were at war with each other for hundreds of years between Jesus’ revelations and the Qur’an. Haven’t you ever wondered why practically 99% of the Christians of the middle east immediately converted to Islam when it was revealed? It was because they were already Unitarian Christians and the Qur’an fit perfectly with the true doctrine of Jesus they had preserved. There’s so much history here I wish you would just take the time to read the book for a clear perspective.
The concept of the trinity was not formed in the council of Nicae, what amazes me is this really is a moot point to the muslim, even if you were to take away the trinity you still have the problem of the Son of God. The way you say that 99% it makes it look like a number of enormous proportions just who were the christians in the middle east? how many were Nestorians? how many were Chloridians (believe Mary is part of the trinity), if these false sect of christianity pervaded the middle east and along comes sura 9:5 which many scholars interpreted as mushrikeen anyone other than islam for fear of their lives wouldn't you expect them to convert especially if they had to pay tax.
Bro, I wish you’d make a serious effort to study the Qur’an because otherwise I think you’re being misled by people who want nothing more than to leave you in darkness. Nothing can be PROVEN to be the word of God, but the Qur’an is by far the best preserved and most miraculous of all Scriptures. Its revelations are evaluated against this criteria, not whether you think they are flaky. And most definitely if you study how it was revealed you would know that an unlettered man (and I contend even a literate and learned man) could not have produced such a work in however many years, with all its eloquence, consistency, prophecy, and miracles.
I suggest you make a serious effort to study the sunnah and the koran in chronological order a Lebanese printing firm had plans on producing the koran in chronological order I do not know if they have started production yet, if you read it in chronological order you would realise it came from the mind of a man and nothing more, as I asked earlier would you like to stress the miracle of the koran please elaborate on the alledged prophecies of the KORAN, if it's existence is it's sole miracle, that can go for just about any ancient literature written that stood the test of time, the epic of gilgamesh, for starters.
That’s not true, bro. The only major difference between Islam and Christianity is the Trinity and Salvation. Wouldn’t you agree that Islam and Judaism are much closer about the Divine Unity and Salvation than is Christianity and Judaism?
In what way are islam and judaism close, why does fundamentalist islam hate judaism so much? have you thought for one second if you are serving the same God or if God is on your side, why have all the islamic countries attacking Israel over the years have not driven Israel into the sea yet? Does God favour one side over the other? or are both sides serving two different gods?
What does circumnavigating the ka'ba, salat and the hajj pilgrimage have to do with Judaism?
If you want to claim they are monotheism, well that goes for zoroastrains too are you close to zoroastrians, or didn't Mohammed just call them fire worshippers?
Absolutely man, and look at how many deviant faiths there exist after Christianity AND Islam that undermine both of their messages. However, God always demands of his worshippers that they use their intellect. Your perspective is “well the Bible says that anyone who doesn’t agree with the Bible is bringing a false Gospel from Satan” But you first have to consider whether the Bible itself did not accurately transmit Jesus’ teachings and YET had the disclaimer “anyone who doesn’t agree with the Bible is bringing a false Gospel from Satan” then you have people locked in a faith obliviously batting away true guidance just because it doesn’t match their idea. Before you base your life on a text, you have to test it to verify it is from God. You can’t just pick up what your parents picked up and follow it because it says “everything else is false”. Everyone is accountable for putting in an effort to know what they are reading and what they COULD be reading. And to be honest with you, you have a tragically warped account of the Qur’an because you’ve been collecting libelous accusations about it from all the apologetic work you’ve been reading. Instead of doing objective analysis, you’re just building an insurmountable wall of spurious bias against it.
Another brilliant point, show me another scripture that chronicles the beginning of man right through to judgement day, is there any other scripture with such prophecies that are being fulfilled in our very eyes? can you say the same about your koran, does it have any chronology of any kind? wouldn't you expect an omniscient God outside of time to reveal a message to hs creation that tells them what is going to happen as a testament that the message came from Him, how can the authors of 66 scriptural books spanning over 2,000 years not contradict each other yet the author/s of a book spanning 22 years are full of abrogations which one in all honesty would you say came from God?
Of course I’ve considered this! Do you know how many religions have emerged after Islam? Everyone needs to guard the truth from false prophets and deviation, that’s a given. But the definition of “deviation” can’t just be “anything other than what I’m reading”. I believe in the Qur’an because I am sure it is revelation, not just because it warns believers to guard against deviance and other false prophets because EVERY faith will warn against that. You should do the same and think critically and logically. Anyone can add a disclaimer “and anything else that is said is false” in fact everyone’s scripture says that. So you first have to know for sure that YOU in fact are holding the Truth to begin with.
You believe the quran is revelation and that it is the truth because?
Why would proselytes to an alledged message for all mankind only convert via chanting the shahadah in arabic? and why do they most of the time take on an arabic name and their females forced into wearing the hijab which some wear to the point that it makes them almost deaf, dumb and blind?, does this look more like arab culturalisation than an intercession between God and his creation? why must the message for all mankind only to be understood unless you go to the original arabic a complicated and hard to understand language second only to chinese
Christianity was about removing legalism from communication with God now islam is fighting tooth and nail to get legalism into religion.
But this is exactly what people starting to think AFTER Jesus (pbuh) left the Earth. They couldn’t handle the virgin birth as MERELY a miracle, and when they were unsure about the events of the crucifixion they were overwhelmed and wanted to explain it theologically. You have to know what Jesus (pbuh) said about God for sure, you have to know how Jesus spoke, lived, worshipped and how everyone living around him did these things while he was on earth. You can’t rely on a Scripture he had never seen before, written years after he was gone, he had to have witnessed it to make sure it contained absolutely ZERO deviance.
Scroll up, did Mohammed see the final copy kept by Uthmann while he burnt the other 99 codexs to see if it had zero deviance?
I agree there’s a lot of propaganda out there. But here’s the key. Before you even open up a Scripture to read it, you have to know where it came from, otherwise you are pitting the words of God against the words of men and then choosing which you like best. You can just line up ALL the supposed scriptures of the world and then choose your favorite. Scripture has to have signs to show that it is the word of God, it must come from the mouth of the messenger, it can’t be broken in its transmission. Even before you get to theological content, what prophecies does it contain? What internal miracles and eloquence?
so God needs to commune His message in eloquence? doesn't your koran say that it is written in simple arabic so that even a child could understand? so you believe the koran is from God because of the eloquence and the internal miracles? I would love to hear what exactly these miracles are, I hope you are also aware that Mohammed told Zaid (the final collector of the koran) to study the book of the jews, and poems from famous arabs were interlaced into the text, is this the eloquence you mean?
So by your logic the works of Shakespeare are from God because it has eloquence and mathematically equidistant text?
And seriously, in the second example “read” means “recited”. Not only means, it is the same word. If hundreds had memorized the Qur’an during the time of the Prophet, don’t you think the Prophet himself would be foremost among them? You think he would need it written down to read it? Think about that.
sura 96 1 “Read in the name of your Lord who created man out of clots of congealed blood. Read, for your Lord is the most generous. He who taught the use of the pen that man might be taught that which he did not know.”
This is acknowledged by islamic scholars as the very first sura revealed to Mohammed, what you have to ask yourself is why would an omniscient God would ask an illterate man to read? and what on earth does the words mean, I have tried for quite a while to fanthom out some meaning to the very first sura of islam, for your lord is the most generous and taught the use of the pen so men would be taught that which he did not know? if you were to read al tabari and sahih muslim and bukhari this little snippet on the conception would make a lot more sense.
Bukhari:V1B1N3-V6B60N478 “The commencement of divine inspiration to Allah’s Messenger was in the form of dreams that came true like a bright light. The Prophet loved the seclusion of a cave in Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, ‘I do not know how to read.’ The Prophet added, ‘Then the angel caught me forcefully and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He released me and asked me to read. I replied, “I do not know how to read.” Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me till I could not bear it any more. He asked me to read but I replied, “I do not know how to read or what shall I read?” Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, “Read in the name of your Lord who has created man from a clot. Read! Your Lord is the most generous.” Then the Apostle returned from that experience; the muscles between his neck and shoulders were trembling, and his heart beating severely. He went to Khadija and cried, ‘Cover me! Cover me!’ She did until his fear subsided. He said, ‘What’s wrong with me? I am afraid that something bad has happened to me.’ Khadija replied, ‘Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you….’”
Tabari VI:67 “Aisha reported: ‘Solitude became dear to Muhammad and he used to seclude himself in the cave of Hira where he would engage in the Tahannuth [pagan religious rites performed in Ramadhan that included fasting] worship for a number of nights before returning to Khadija and getting provisions for a like period, till truth came upon him while he was in a cave. The first form of revelation was a true vision in sleep. He did not see any vision but it came like the break of dawn.’”
“‘Muhammad, you are the Messenger.’”
“The Prophet said, ‘I had been standing, but fell to my knees; and crawled away, my shoulders trembling. I went to Khadija and said, ‘Wrap me up! When the terror had left me, he came to me and said, ‘Muhammad, you are the Messenger of Allah.’ Muhammad said, ‘I had been thinking of hurling myself down from a mountain crag, but he appeared to me as I was thinking about this and said, ‘I am Gabriel and you are the Messenger.’ Then he said, Recite!’ I said, ‘What shall I recite?’ He took me and pressed me three times. ‘I fear for my life.’ She said, ‘Rejoice, for Allah will never put you to shame.”
Muslim C74B1N301 “‘The truth came unexpectedly and said: “Recite,” to which he replied: “I am not lettered.” The Apostle said, “He took hold of me, and pressed me, till I was hard pressed. He let me off and said: ‘Recite.’ I said: ‘I am not lettered.’”
Notice how in Bukhari the angel apparently told him to read, but in muslim and tabari it said recite, was someone trying to remove away the accusation of why an omniscient God would ask an illiterate man to read? or why would someone say they are unable to recite? does it make any sense for an angel of God to say recite wihtout telling you what to recite of course the logical question you would ask it is "what shall I recite?" you don't expect this angel of God to suddenly start manhandling you when it gave you no scroll to recite from or told you what to say now do you? is that why in Bukhari and the koran it says read?
Sura 2 41
YUSUFALI: And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
The Jews were profiting from their way of life and refused to change even when Jesus (pbuh) came to correct their faiths and reestablish the Mosaic Laws as they were revealed. Instead, the Jews (especially the elite) bartered Truth for exclusive rights to interpretation and so on.
where do you get the evidence that the jews were profiting from their way of life? you mean since they no longer followed the true religion in your opinion they were profiting from their way of life?
could not the alternative scenario for sura 2:41 be that the jews were selling scriptures to Mohammed while Mohammed wanted it for free so he could incorporate it into his new religion? hence the sura was revealed, it is very coincidental suras were revealed regarding events to profit Mohammed if Mohammed wanted to take Zaid's wife viola a sura would be revealed to justify it, if mohammed wanted booty on the sacred month of rahab viola a sura would be revealed to justify it...
Bro, I hope you know that not all hadiths are of the same authenticity! There were a lot of disbelievers who purposely attributed sayings to the Prophet to ridicule him and divert the faiths of believers. They like yourself thought this amusing. So whenever you present a hadith, you also have to present it’s authenticity rating. This is based on whether it has a solid and large transmission of reliable persons going all the way back to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). THEN you have to check the biographies of each person to make sure they are reliable and don’t have a history of malice against Islam or people in general or even senility. THEN you have to note whether there are ever any broken links in the chain. Then you have to note how many chains have transmitted the same hadith. The science of hadith is too deep to go into, but I think the reason you find many hadiths amusing is exactly because many ARE frivolous and slanderous plagiarisms by the enemies of Islam. Do you understand this or should I expand more on the topic? Not all hadiths have the same weight, some we know were certainly words of the Prophet, and some are obviously plagiarism simply because of who transmitted them and how. This is where most apologetics get their hadiths and enjoy themselves, oblivious to the fact that Muslims regard much of the same hadiths as plagiarisms.
There is a term for this type of an attitude, "cut your nose to spite your face". I hope you realise the majority of imans in the sunni school of jurispundence believe in the hadiths, a great deal of islam would call you an apostate for picking and choosing which part of islam you want to believe in, and I hope you also realise the people who wrote the hadiths are the same people who wrote the koran, so if they incorporated lies into the hadiths how about the koran?
Don’t allow your heart to be thick with contempt and disbelief bro, to this day Muslims memorize the entire Qur’an. At the time of its initial transmission it was memorized by thousands in different reaches of the Muslim world to ensure that no collusion was even possible. Not only that, but it was simultaneously recorded. No other Scripture in the world was so meticulously guarded against corruption.
That is not even the issue the issue is the destination of your eternal soul it really doesn't matter if scripture is memorised for it's protection ( forget that Zaid couldn't find certain verses when he started his collection if it was all memorised surely he would have to go to one person and maybe a second for confirmation rather than look for verses in leaves, animal skin and barks of wood (does this look like a mass memorisation technique to you) thats a moot point, what if the scripture is just plain wrong and not from God, what then?
Well, if you’ve firmly decided you never want to be ^^^ there, then you won’t be able to handle the book. But I would call this blind faith. Truth stands clearly above falsehood and you should have no reservations to read anything if you claim to have the Truth. But at least you’ve openly made your decision after I had made the suggestion to you. This is what happens most of the time, people love habitudes more than they love the Truth. They seek comfort in the familiar rather than in the Truth and are averse to change. Anyone who is not willing to change for God does not truly believe in Him.
And from your statement you have already come to the conclusion that you hold the truth isn't that circular logic, you are prepared to argue with someone to read a book that contains justification for the gospel of barnabas when it contradicts your holy books but since it denies the diety of Jesus it must be true, if you are prepared to justify a book that contradicts your holy book but use it as defence simply because it contradicts a rival scripture then it reeks of desperation to prove the other side wrong no matter what. Not many of the muslims I have spoken to have been able to defend islam at the crux of it they have always said I will ask an iman or someone who is more knowledgeable, any blasphemy against the prophet is punishable by death, apostasy is punishable by death after a 3 day waiting grace, these are practiced by many an islamic country your liberal words and attitude am afraid is not the reality of islam in the majority of the world.
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humble_guest
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Now what is the ine Gospels is not myths or pagan, as what we read is traceable to OT prophecy which is a powerful way to authenticate the Gospels.
You wouldn't think that?
There’s no question that the OT foretells the coming of Jesus the Messiah. Apart from that, all the passages you’ve shown regarding the Trinitarian conception of Jesus have solid alternative explanations by the Jews, especially when they claim that the OT in the Bible was translated with a bias to promote the Christian interpretations.
As God told us that His revelations always return to Him fruitful and fulflill His Will, why do you lack so much faith friend??? You need faith to begin with to believe in God.
Not at all friend. I have complete faith in God. That’s the first step. The second step is wanting to live by God’s word. Hundreds of religions CLAIM they hold God’s word, but you have to use your intellect to test these claims. Everyone wants to be a Prophet, but you have to test their signs, that’s why God always sends His Messengers with signs. Anyone who spends a lifetime following a book when they aren’t sure it’s from God are being dangerously negligent with their lives.
The more authentic and reliable something is, the closer to the event it is. That is the truth.
God gives us a mind to use for analyzing, and people neevr hear alot of Jesus's childhood in the Gospels, so they get curious and make up stuff to appease theire curiostiy, and lo and behold the Quran has baby stories of Jesus! What is a good mind to make of this???
The good mind has to first ask himself, where are these stories found? They are found in the Qur’an. Ask yourself what raises the Qur’an above all other Scriptures? The Qur’an is itself a sign from God, that’s why we know that it contains only Truth. That’s why its claims supercede those of lesser texts of questionable origin, and when it was revealed has no bearing on what it contains. The word of God is eternal and Truth, it will describe the origins of the Universe even if written billions of years later.
Now see, you think the Message became distorted over time, but you are dead wrong. I can see how very true the Gospels are as they confirm what the Prophets said. It's not all bout people worshipping God, God had a very advanced plan that was revealed in the Gospels.
Since you lack spiritual insight, you can not to see this.
I think you’re speaking in extremes now. Nobody is saying that someone took the Bible and completely rewrote it such that everything in it is false. A LOT of Jesus’ teachings remain, many prophecies remain in tact, people didn’t re-author the text and distort it this grossly. However, there is little doubt that extraneous beliefs crept into it after Jesus’ (pbuh) ascension because it was such a mysterious event. People began explaining by conjecture since Jesus was no longer there to explain it. Instead of living strictly by the teachings of Jesus while he was on earth for 30 some years, people took the events of his last few days and remodeled the religion.
What you say is true, but what about baby stories of Jesus from flaky apocryphal gospels??? The Infancy Gospels were written too late to even be considered as a nook of the Bible. Such stories were nonexistent until they were favbricated and written down. Clearly the Quran has myths, that is a reality.
Believer, do you know how large and for how long the Unitarian Christian community lasted in the middle East? They were practically equal if not larger than the Trinitarian community, and they continued to preach the True Message of Jesus and his life. It shouldn’t surprise you at all that they would have recorded a similar story as that revealed in the Qur’an. These stories were labeled as “mythical” to the masses when the Church began collecting and withholding the texts from the public, that’s what “apocryphal” means, it means “hidden from the people”
Unless you cannot disprove what I have said, you're arguments againt the Gospels are null because you're not applying the same logic to your beliefs.
What haven’t I applied to my beliefs? I’m telling you that before we even examine what’s INSIDE our books, we need to study WHERE they came from. At least we know beyond a doubt that the Qur’an we have today is the one that the Prophet Muhammad spoke, memorized and oversaw transcribed. We know that the way the Prophet Muhammad lived his life is the way we currently live our lives. This is not something any Christian can say. People don’t know how Jesus prayed, how he ate, how he supplicated to God. They only recorded this after he had gone, after NOONE could verify whether what was being written was correct. They could NEVER be sure what they wrote was what Jesus would have approved. In addition, Jesus’ teachings ended obviously after the events of the crucifixion whereas the Bible’s teachings REVOLVE around this event which Jesus did not explain nor had the opportunity to correct deviant beliefs thereon.
Every Christians believed that Jesus was the Lord and the Spirit was from God, and the Father was God, Sure a formal definition of the Trinity was compiled an Nicaea, but that doesn't mean it was invented.
Did you know that at the time of Nicaea, roughly 50% of the Christian world was Unitarian? Half of the Christians believed in the Divine Unity and the Prophethood of Jesus the Messiah.
Arius was a heretical bishop that started this big Unitarian thing.
He taught that Jesus was the highest created being, but not God.
Islam was influenced by the Arian heresy.
Arius was defined as heretical AFTER the hegemony of the Trinitarian church re-evaluated all the claims of the debate of Nicaea. During the time, Christians were honestly debating what they did not clearly understand about Jesus’ mysterious nature and virgin birth.
Alot heretical Christians sought refuge in the East, and they had various unusual beliefs. Plus they were pressured to convert to Islam. But certainly 99% didn't convert. Armenian Christians are true Christians and they do not convert to Islam.
This is a myth. The Unitarian Christians of the middle east didn’t even NEED to be pressured. Look at the history, they converted IMMEDIATELY after hearing of Islam. It was almost instantaneous because they RECOGNIZED what they had always known. That God is One and Jesus is His Messiah and beloved Messenger. At the time of Islam, all of Northern Africa, Syria, Jordan, Iraq were practically 100% Christian. Years later, only small patches like the Armenians in the North remained because all the Unitarian Christians recognized the message. The Armenians were Trinitarian since Nicaea which is why they were not as influenced.
Interesting how you say the Unitarians kept the "true doctrine of Jesus" when they were an heretical group that emerged later. You use so much backwards logic, well that will not give you a clear unbiased view on things.
Actually the Unitarians had been in equal numbers to the Trinitarians SINCE 33 AD. Their numbers began to dwindle only as they were massacred by the Trinitarian authorities over the centuries. Didn’t you always wonder why the Christians were fighting so brutally during the first half of the millennium? Did you think it was just “True Christians” vs. the “heretics”? Heretics are usually fringe groups, not HALF of the entire population of Christianity.
Unless you can show me a piece of the original Quran that Muhammed wrote down, cave scribbling or a rock or on animal hides of whatever...then well you don't have the original Quran.
And remember that the entire Quran was memorized, a parallel system of complete memorization and transcription around the Muslim world ensured that no collusion could have taken place to corrupt the message.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Miracle/
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/
Your views of salvation are of Persian origin.
Zoroastrians believe that those who do good deeds go to heaven, and those with less good deeds than bad deeds go to hell.
Islam reminds me alot of the Persian religion.
Look at my signature as well as this hadith:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There is none whose deeds alone would entitle him to get into Paradise. It was said to him: And, Allah's Messenger, not even you? Thereupon he said: Not even I, but that my Lord wraps me in Mercy.
It is dangerously incorrect to believe that one’s deeds alone will get you to Heaven, this is what Apologetics claim to distort the issue of salvation of Islam.
One’s good deeds testify FOR him on the day of Judgement, but belief is by far more important than a lifetime of good deeds. Look to the hadith for this yourself. How many stories are there of people who lived PURELY sinful lives, but before they died they repented sincerely, and are reported to have gone to Heaven. Deeds come into play when one has believed. You have stories of believers who reportedly went to Heaven for having Believed and done a single good deed in their life.
Jews also repent directly to God.
Understand, humble, that Jesus was not created by two sex cells.
Neither were Adam or Eve. Remember that God can create whatever He wills, there is no need to use conjecture to invent explanations.
Funny considering many people worshipped Jesus while He lived
Jesus (pbuh) had to consistently remind people not to worship him. As you yourself know, many people did not know how to interpret the virgin birth and tried to worship Jesus but Jesus himself corrected this association.
by all of the so-called evidence you gave to me makes you believe that it's true?
No that’s obviously not true, but what I do know is that the Qur’an has infinitely more evidence of its authenticity than does any other Scripture.
The difference between Christianity and other religions is because we have a close and personal relationship with our God almighty. We know what we have to do [whether or not we choose to listen] and how to go about our lives. The proof is in what our heavenly father shows to us through our daily relationship with Him. Of course the Bible helps us to undestand what is expected of us as good christians, but it is He who provides us with our daily needs. It's more spiritual than techinical and that's something alot of people of the flesh cannot understand. It's like I'm talking English to you when you can onlly understand French.
That’s not true shepherd, this is something that comes up every single time the Bible’s authenticity is questioned. All of a sudden people say “well at least I have a personal relationship with God”. Do you actually believe that Christians are the only one with this relationship? This monopolization is a form of arrogance. The biggest reason I believe in Islam is because God comforts me in my belief, it is rational and true and has worldly evidence to vouch for it. Other faiths, when questioned about their authenticity can only say “well at least I know God loves me” or “free your mind” (to ignore the disparity). But God has to comfort you in your heart AND intellect, that’s the difference between Islam and other faiths. You don’t have to “veil” your mind from doubt and questions of authenticity and rely solely on the comfort you feel. In fact, EVERY faith claims to have this comfort, from Hinduism through to Bhuddism.
I believe the entire bible to be true. I believe in Jesus Christ as my saviour. Jesus is and will always be the final messenger for me and He's proved it to me and I'm sure alot of other followers many times over and over again.
The only reason you believe Jesus to be the Savior is because you believe the Bible to be true. But you don’t know the Bible to be true, you only believe it to be so. How can you spend your life living by what you don’t both know AND believe to be true? What then distinguishes you from Joseph Smith, the authenticity of his scripture demands pure faith, since its story cannot stand on worldly proof at all.
I don't need someone like Muhammed or Joseph Smith to tell me other wise because they are dellusional.
Well I won’t defend Joseph Smith because I see striking similarities between the demands of the Book of Mormon and those of the defenders of the Bible, blind faith. But I’ll tell you what I have noticed on this forum. Every Christian person has cursed or ridiculed the Qur’an and Muhammad (pbuh). I think one’s actions are a good indication of one’s internal condition and I know even by your beliefs Jesus (pbuh) did not curse other religions of the time, he didn’t need to.
Well if you have other works in your hand that are just as "eloquent" as you put it, it's really not hard to plagarize. I think I got an F in school for plagerizing something I didn't copy. I just wanted to use the format to make it seem as if I really knew what I was talking about. I got an F anyway.
http://www.answering-islam.org.uk/Quran ... index.html
Forget it. I already read the hadiths and provided them to you. If you don't want to accept the truth sincerly that your prophet was a hoax, then that's on you, not me.
Just read it. Stop batting everything away. Obviously you’re not sincere when you’re afraid to read what might affect you.
So then that would question the validity of the entier koran and the hadiths. You mean the ones that were around him were lying? dictated? I don't think. He could write, but played that he couldn't because he wanted to portray that islam is the correct religion when it is not.
Considering that not a single person could emulate the Qur’an in the literary peak of the area, it shouldn’t even matter to you that the Prophet was unlettered since even if he was the Qur’an is miraculous. However, even by your estimation, if the Prophet was just “playing” why then would he just take out a pen out of nowhere and start writing? First you make it out to be an elaborate scheme to make the Qur’an seem miraculous, then you claim that it was all messed up when he accidentally wrote something and everyone saw him. Don’t you think the people around him, especially the hypocrites and skeptics who were watching this would have made a bigger deal of it? Or do you think that 1500 years later you found this hadith and are proud that you caught something that people witnessing the alleged event didn’t even notice?
And where is the proof that so many people memorized the quran. I would like to ask my cousin if he's already memorized the quran. Actually you know what? when I go back to work next week I'm going to ask all of those women that converted how many years ago if they memorized the quran and then I'll come back to you with my answer. I'll even ask some of the arab muslim men at my job as well.
Not all muslims have memorized the Qur’an, but there are schools around the world that still facilitate this. That’s right, tens of thousands have memorized the 600 page text. The proof is in the oral traditions of transmission and in the differences in recitation of the Qur’an. There are variant ways in which it is pronounced which date back to the approved ways of the Prophet (pbuh):
http://www.iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Sabeel/sabeel3.htm
http://www.iiie.net/Articles/AuthenticQuran.html
The fact still remains that he could read and write.
I’m glad that this is such a sticking point for you. At least it shows how intensely you realize that the Qur’an could not have been written by an unlettered man. But neither could it even be EMULATED by the literary scholars and poets of the time.
http://www.ymofmd.com/books/prophethood ... _intro.htm
The critical point is this: The Prophet was an illiterate, knowing neither how to read or write, before the Glorious Qur’an started to be revealed to him. Only after the Quran’s revelation does it become a debated issue, but at that point, it becomes even more irrelevant.
http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/englis ... waID=90849
Why would mohameed need to buy scriptures from people anyway if he got the direct revelation from god through the angel? That doesn't make sense.
What do you mean? That verse was a command to the Jews to not sell God’s word for a paltry gain, it does not refer to Muhammad (pbuh).
If these so called Hadiths are not true, how do you really know which ones are true? If the so called hadiths are written by the ones that were closely around mohammed and they were supposedly the ones that wrote the quran for him since he couldn't read or write [which is not true], then how can you even accept the validity of the koran to begin with?
Bro, this is an EXCELLENT question, I can tell now you are thinking.
Here is some important background on what constitutes “hadith”
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/
Read this especially, it’s a good summary:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith ... ences.html
And here’s a rough explanation:
When scholars like Muslim and Bukhary were collecting the words and actions of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) they went around asking people what they knew.
When someone claimed to have known something, they had say what they knew, and say who told them, and then who told THEM, and who told THEM, all the way back to someone who was actually present when Muhammad (pbuh) said it. Now if someone can’t do that, if he says “Someone told me that the Prophet said this” but can’t name all the names back to the source, it’s not credible. Also, if someone says that so-and-so told me, and “so-and-so” is someone of questionable repute, the hadith is considered questionable. Remember that at the time there were many enemies of Islam who want to just spread slander. If someone was known to have been a hypocrite at the time, how reliable could his testimony have been? Anyway, so the more reliable people you had at each level in the chain of transmission, the more reliable was the hadith.
So not ALL the hadiths are untrue, they have variable integrities. We know which ones are true by the way they were transmitted and by WHOM they were transmitted. Sometimes senile men could’t remember where they had heard something or seen something, sometimes people couldn’t remember just one name in the transmission. These were all reasons to doubt the authenticity of a hadith. It’s a very meticulous matter to insure that slander and falsity didn’t creep into the words and life of the Prophet.
Obviously the transmission of the Qur’an is higher than any hadith in authenticity. Hundreds of companions had written and memorized it and their followers and their followers’ followers were named and known each generation.
ANY layperson could tell that milk came from the breast. So what? There is no miracle in that.
But that’s not what the verse says. It was talking about how the mammary glands are nourished, how the milk itself is formed, not that it comes out of the breast which anyone can see in front of them. It was a question of HOW the milk is formed. Any lay person could not tell you how the milk is formed, especially not 1400 years ago. Also, this is just one of MANY scientific miracles.
PH has nothing to do with a barrier. PH has to do with the basic of acidic nature of fluid such as water. water can either be an acid or a base.
Not all water has a pH of exactly 7. Water can be slightly acidic or basic depending on its molarity i.e. ~6.5 or ~7.5
Oil can be considered basic and water can be considered basic but they cannot mix. Acid is acidic and water can be acidic and they can still mix together.
You mean that oil is non-polar and water is polar. That’s why they don’t mix. Acids and bases mix to form heat and water. It’s polar and non-polar substances that don’t mix in solution. Acid can mix with water but so can bases, man! Basic solutions are MIXED in water, as are acidic aqueous solutions. In fact, dropping an alkaline earth metal in water is one way to form basic solutions.
Check the Atlantic ocean next to the meditteranean sea water by the gibralter sil. There are no barriers, in fact there are mixtures of both salt water and fresh water by certain percentages.
The Mediterranean is connected to the GIGANTIC Atlantic Ocean. Didn’t you ever wonder why they have two distinct water properties? If you have a plate full of one type of water, and pour a little of another type of water into its side, then measure the water. It’s a weighted average of their two properties, the solutions mix. This doesn’t happen with the rivers and oceans.
The point of the matter is that it's useless to even memorize a book of lies. That's my point. It doesn't matter to me if someone wants to memorize something. What's the point when the thing you're memorizing isn't even going to save you when the time comes? The corruption is the koran itself so the corruption has already been memorized.
You only think the Qur’an is corrupted because you base that belief on the Bible. The Qur’an is better preserved than the Bible, it was preserved for longer, it was written and recorded and memorized BEFORE its messenger disappeared. It contains miracles and prophecies to vouch for its authenticity. I don’t see how you are using a Scripture of weaker authenticity to claim that one of stronger authenticity is corrupted.
Most religions ask this because they know it's better "brainwashing" Love is a spiritual thing, it's not intellectual, it's purely spiritual and that's what our God is all about. Pure love.
Religion is COMPLETE belief. You have to be convinced with your heart AND mind. You have to be comforted in your heart and rationally convinced in your mind otherwise you will always harbor doubt. God is Truth, there can be no doubt regarding His commands. I’ve told you this before, but the Bhuddists think they are much more spiritual than the Christians, in fact they tell you to completely block out the mind…why would someone ask a believer to block out their mind? Only when the Scripture does not offer certainty with regard to its divine nature. Whenever there’s no proof, people are asked to believe blindly. Anyway, even though the QUr’an brings with it so many proofs, people like yourself still don’t believe, so obviously there is a strong factor of belief as well.
Well so far, to me, Islam is losing the test of 'proof' as well. I don't need proof from islam because I've already found it in Jesus Christ.
The Bhuddist and Hindu would applaud you for this, they argue the same way. They don’t need proof because they feel “comfort”. But when you think about it, EVERYONE feels comfort in what they believe when they block out their reasoning capacity.
but people like mohammed and islam fly in the face of God all the time because you cannot accept that someone loved you so much that He would give up His only begotten Son for you life of sin.
Not at all. You should be willing to believe EVERYTHING that God reveals, right or not? If you know for sure you have the word of God, then there shouldn’t be a question of whether or not you should believe it. People don’t believe in the sacrifice of a “begotten” son not because it doesn’t make sense, but simply because there is no indication that God EVER commanded this. You didn’t wake up one morning and rationalize that God had sacrificed a son, you read this in the Bible. You base this entire belief on the Bible, so the logical question is, how do you know the Bible is the word of God? What signs does it bring to indicate this AND is there a Scripture with similar yet more evident signs?
My point was that we were in a situation with no way out and all was about to be lost, but through prayer we made it through [don't know how to explain that].
That’s good man. Sincere prayer is always answered and I don’t doubt that you entreated what you would call “the Father” with the most sincere of prayers and that’s why you were saved by Him.
Like I told you before, been there, done that, constantly going through it everyday with your muslim brothers on my back.
I don’t really condone the way all Muslims speak to Christians here. Both parties trade a lot of insults and it gets disgusting to be honest with you. Often it is a very ungodly forum running here.
Jesus also warned about those who are in sheep's clothing. I personally am not interested. I'm learning everyday about islam and how its effect on the people are devastating. How much of a brain washing cult it is and how mohammed used "religion" to get his way. He is one of the most evil people I've ever read about in history.
Bro do you know how ironic this statement is? Do you know who the people in sheep’s clothing are? They are the people who provide you INCORRECT information while claiming to be on your side and helping you defend the TRUTH! They defend falsity with falsity while claiming to be sincere worshippers. THESE are the wolves in sheep’s clothing because they are pretending to be your friends but they are only caging your heart. That’s why all you get is a constant bombardment of what Islam is NOT and your sources are damning you because they are not bringing authentic information to you. They are just constantly bombarding you with hateful and polemical discussions so your heart grows hard and hateful of Islam. I swear to you, if you really knew Islam and the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) you would not feel this way. Whenever you want to make a sincere effort to know Islam, let me know, otherwise you have chosen to live in darkness. It’s so sad that you think the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is evil or that he used religion to his advantage when his life was filled with suffering, purity, and sacrifice. And why? All because you’ve based your life on recycled orientalist discourse written by colonialists in the 17th and 18th centuries who wanted to break the backbone of Islam by spreading falsity.
A leader like mohammed is not someone I would ever want to follow to be in contact with god. Jesus is definately the one I would follow forever to be with my Father in heaven.
When you follow Muhammad (pbuh) you ARE following Jesus because there is not a doubt in my mind that they brought the same exact message from God.
If you say that Jesus will come back, break the cross and throw a pig like me into hell because I didn't follow the laviscious life of mohammed, then so be it.
Bro don’t be like this. Think clearly and thoroughly. Muslims know that Jesus, Moses, Muhammad, all the way back down to Abraham and Adam taught submission to the One God. That didn’t mean they all followed the same rites as these were added and changed with time and the testaments. Jesus returns to symbolically break the cross to show that this was not what he ever taught nor was he ever commanded to teach it. He symbolically “kills the swine” to show that he was sent as a messenger to UPHOLD the Mosaic laws that forbade swine, not to abrogate them. And most importantly, the life of Muhammad was not lascivious, this is what you’ve been taught. You’ve grown to hate polygyny while it was rampant with the prophets of the OT. Islam not only limited it to certain conditions (which I’m sure you don’t know) but it made those conditions so difficult to meet that a single spouse was intended to be the norm and preference anyway. Seriously don’t be misled, ask your questions so you can get a proper answer.
Peace to you Bro
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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humble_guest
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Liberate your reply is coming up,
Peace bro
Peace bro
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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humble_guest
- Preacher
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- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 03:12 am
This ofcourse implies paper and ink were readily available 2,000 years ago to the common man; I hope you have heard of the Muratorian fragments that date the completion of the whole new testament by (AD 70 - AD 170). Coincidentally your hadiths claim Mohammed was never around to forsee the compilation of the koran into a book even Zaid was worried when Uthmann asked him to compile the koran into a book and he claimed how could he do something the prophet didn't do. If you want to claim religious superiority over maintenance of your holy text thats a moot point, because your koran was never written with the guidance of the prophet, when the third caliph came to make some more changes Mohammed was not there, when a further 7 amendments were made by a succeeding caliph Mohammed was not there, all this changes and compilation of the koran were made without a prophetic advice.
Actually, in your entire paragraph there’s only one thing that’s true. And that is that the only thing that was made without prophetic advice is the actual order of the arrangement of the Qur’an. The order of the Chapters is not the chronology of when they were revealed though the times and places of their revelation is recorded. But the order of the Surahs actually has no bearing on the Qur’an.
I highly recommend this site:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/
You have just contradicted the point you have been trying to hammer in your first two posts, which was the story closest to the events in your opinion that was written down in the presence of the prophets is the one you should go for, now you change your tune when it applies to apocryphal jewish and christian fables incorporated almost verbatim into your koran?
No I haven’t. The word of God ALWAYS supercedes the word of man, even if the word of man is closer to the event. Only when you have two conflicting accounts BETWEEN the words of men, should you look to proximity. Also the allegation that the “fables” are incorporated verbatim is preposterous if you mean there were written in the same style and language.
Now before you scream this is corruption and you have never heard of it and it isn't in the koran I would like you to bear in mind the things that are omitted in the koran as to the beginnings of this earth, remember this was written before any of the hadiths were collected, and the author proclaims their authenticity "come directly from Mohammed"
I hate to break it to you, but just because someone “proclaims” their authenticity comes directly from Mohammad doesn’t make it authentic! See my above post about hadith and verifying authenticity, bro.
You believe God protected His word by allowing pagan arabs only to have the true message of His word? this same pagan arabs that worshipped the stars, moon and stones suddenly had the true religon from God just hidden and waiting to be revealed by Mohammed, there is a fundamental logical fallacy here where do we distinguish between what is the true religion of God and blatant paganism being practiced by the pagan sabaens?. If the pagan sabeans practiced salat, hajj poilgrimages and circumnavigating the ka'ba how come Jesus didn't do it or Moses or Abraham? if this is the religion that follows the previous religions of God why is it the pagans only are practicing this ritual?
First of all, the “pagan arabs” weren’t the only ones to have the true message of His Word. God’s Message has been preserved from Adam through to Muhammad in terms of the Divine Unity. The star worshipping pagan Arabs REVERTED to Islam, they didn’t claim to have had Islam revealed to them. In addition, the reason you see the pagans having practiced a form of the pilgrimage and circumnavigation is this (from another post):
The rites of Hajj were first performed by Abraham, Hajar, and Ishmael. The Prophet Muhammad’s (pbuh) Hajj was a reenactment and observation of these rites.
The Hajj was performed by the projeny of Ismael and the monotheists of Arabia until they were borrowed by the idolaters to worship their false gods. It is the latter practices which the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) corrected in order to return Muslims to the rites observed by Abraham.
Abraham -------- Ishmael and descendents -------- Pagans incorporate rituals ------------Muhammad dispels pagan rituals and reenacts Abrahamatic Hajj.
The reason you’re confused is that you’re only look back to the pagans and assuming that their rites were borrowed when in fact it was the pagans who borrowed the rites from the descendents of Ishmael and Abraham.
The difference is for Whom the rituals are performed. Aside from disputing that fasting was observed in the same manner as Muslims, I remind you that the pagans did their rites for idols and pluralistic gods, not the One God Almighty. It’s like the difference between someone who prays to a human and the person who prays to God.
So in fact the pagans had incorporated what they had seen the descendents of Ishmael do, except they were using a garbled version of them to worship their false gods.
In addition, we know that the Message given to Moses was distinct from the one given to Muhammad i.e. Islam with all its rites was not revealed to Moses. However, theologically Moses and all the Messengers and Prophets received and transmitted the same message of Divine Unity and submission to God. The only difference were the details and demands of some rites (for example the Jews were directed to worship towards Jerusalem). Jesus (pbuh) was sent as a Messenger to return the children of Israel to the way of Moses and the laws revealed to him, as they had strayed therefrom.
You mention God protects His word, interesting the koran says "To you (Muhammad) We revealed the book in truth, attesting to (the truth of) that which IS between his (its) hands from the scripture (the Torah and Gospel), and guarding it (wa muhaiminan `alaihi)."sura 5:48
According to the Arabic Lexicon muhaimin comes from the root verb haymana, and is related to such words as yuhayminu and hayamanah. These terms can mean ‘to protect, to witness, to keep trust, to back up and to support’ as well as Ameen, control, watch, preserve. Hans Wehr's Arabic dictionary states that muhaimin means protector or watcher.
The question you should ask yourself is why an all knowing Omniscient God would allow his two previouis revelations to get corrupted simultaenously (ignore the scrolls found in the caves of Qumran for a second).
For one thing, nobody said that the two previous revelations were corrupted simultaneously. In fact, one of the reasons the Jews did not all recognize Jesus to be the Messiah is because their texts had changed with regard to the descriptions of the Messiah. They had a different set of criteria by that time.
In addition, when you ask why God did not protect his previous revelations it’s like asking “why did God even have to send more than one Messenger?” That’s exactly like questioning God’s plan to begin with and saying “why not one messenger, one single revelation, preserved through time”.
We know, however, the Message of God regarding His Divine Unity HAS been preserved since Adam while the rites of faith differed between the peoples of different messengers and prophets though they shared a central core. Islam as a final testament and its rites was revealed not to the Arabs but to mankind. The Qur’an states several times that Muhammad (pbuh) and the Qur’an were revelations to mankind, not any given people or time.
Would an all knowing an omniscient God produce sura 2:226 and sura 9:5, surely an all knowing and omniscient God would not abrogate/change/alter his revelations repeatedly over a 22 year period, the old testament spanned 2000+ years there is no abrogation in it, the new testament spanned 70-120 years there is no abrogation in it, yet a 22 year span of alledged revelation has numerous; some schools of islamic jurispundence say 150+ abrogations something is obviously wrong here can this be the same God?. If you want to argue that I am taking it out of context of the historical period it relates to then how can this be the final REVELATION FOR ALL MANKIND if it only refers to local events in the arabian peninsula.
Just observe how you test divine revelation by asking “would a God REALLY do this?” Demoting the commandments of God to the rationality of man. Once you determine what is the word of God, there is no logical alternative to submission thereto.
Also, I’m not going to even begin to argue how your comments on abrogation are out of context. The problem is even more fundamental than that, I’m not sure you know what abrogation entails:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/abrogate.html
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... eller.html
In addition, the references to local events in the Arabian peninsula are obviously in the context of the life of the Prophet (pbuh). The theological aspects have nothing to do with these descriptions and that’s why they’re universal.
"I swear by the moon, And the night when it departs, And the daybreak when it shines; Surely it (hell) is one of the gravest (misfortunes)" (Koran 74:32)
The previous revelations says we should not swear now along comes islam and allah/mohammed/first person decides it is ok to swear by of all things the moon, night and sun?. Simple logic tells me if the two previous revelations are progressive and along comes a third so called revelation that contradicts both the first and second revelation the third reelation is in error.
I’m so glad you pointed this out. It’s relieving because it shows me that you don’t in fact know much about the Qur’an. First of all, the speaker in that verse is God.
Second of all, and this I’m quoting from a previous post:
Take the example of Surat Al-Asr, where God swears by time:
When God Almighty swears by something or takes an oath by something of His creation then this is the way in which He honors this thing from His creation and also the way to emphasize its greatness. It also provides an emphatic suggestion that the thing is a lovable one and men should respond to it actively. They do this after realising how precious it is in the measure of God, which is reflected in His paying attention to it.
As for the creation, it is not permissible except that they swear by God or take oath by God. As we have in the hadeeth which Shaykh Al-Albaani and Shaykh Muqbil make authentic:
“Whoever takes oath by other than God then he has made Shirk with God or disbelieved.”
So it is not permissible for the creation to take oath by other than God.
And then somebody might come and say: “Why is it permissible for God to swear by the Creation and it is not permissible for us to swear by the creation?”
Then we reply to this person with the ayah of God:
“God is not asked about what He does but they are asked.”
God swears by Himself in the following ayah:
But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction. (Qur’an 4:65)
The way you say that 99% it makes it look like a number of enormous proportions just who were the christians in the middle east? how many were Nestorians? how many were Chloridians (believe Mary is part of the trinity), if these false sect of christianity pervaded the middle east and along comes sura 9:5 which many scholars interpreted as mushrikeen anyone other than islam for fear of their lives wouldn't you expect them to convert especially if they had to pay tax.
Most critically, how many believed in the Divine Unity? The true followers of Jesus would not be considered Mushrikeen even AFTER Islam was revealed and the Qur’an states that they would not have anything to fear:
Surely, those who believe and the Jews, and the Nasara (those who followed Jesus’ true message), whosoever believes in God and the Last Day and performs deeds of righteousness, they shall have their reward with their Lord, no fear shall be on them, nor shall they grieve (Qur’an 2:62)
In addition, you claim that the entire Middle East converted from Unitarian Christianity to Islam because of a tax? I’m not going to even comment on this argument when you’re purporting to come from a logical perspective. All I can tell you is that before any such tax was levied tens of years after Islam, there were mass reversions. But what exactly IS this tax of which you’re speaking? You must mean the Jizya tax, a tax charged ONLY of adult male non-muslims who chose not to fight in the army of the state. Interestingly enough, the amount of the tax was NO MORE THAN the amount paid as obligatory alms by the Muslims of the state. So basically you’re saying that a Unitarian Christian man reverted to Islam to have to pay at least as much as he would normally be asked to pay? Or even better, than a Unitarian Christian woman reverted to Islam so that she would pay obligatory alms whereas as before she was not obliged to pay anything?
I do not know if they have started production yet, if you read it in chronological order you would realise it came from the mind of a man and nothing more, as I asked earlier would you like to stress the miracle of the koran please elaborate on the alledged prophecies of the KORAN, if it's existence is it's sole miracle, that can go for just about any ancient literature written that stood the test of time, the epic of gilgamesh, for starters.
This is incredible. I am currently reading the text “Sirat al Nabi and the Orientalists volumes A and B” which discusses this very issue. All I can say is that it is by far the weakest argument ever proposed. Some have even claimed that the subject of the Qur’an changes as the pages of the scribes were being flipped over and the backs were omitted. The best part of these conjectures is that they are laced with “may have been, one wonders whether” not only because there is no evidence of any such accounts but also because it’s blatantly, from an academic standpoint, a form of filibustering with idle suppositions.
The Prophecies of the Qur’an, apart from the scientific miracles and the prophecies in hadith:
Understandable summary:
http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/ ... rophecies/
Some elaboration
http://www.islamicweb.com/quran/prophecies.htm
http://www.understanding-islam.com/rela ... scatid=149
In what way are islam and judaism close, why does fundamentalist islam hate judaism so much? have you thought for one second if you are serving the same God or if God is on your side, why have all the islamic countries attacking Israel over the years have not driven Israel into the sea yet? Does God favour one side over the other? or are both sides serving two different gods?
Don’t mix religion with politics. There’s no reason for anyone to hate the Jews and the fact that you find people who do doesn’t speak about the closeness of the faiths. There are Christians who burn crosses and have killed people of different races and so on, let’s not identify a faith by a minority of its adherents. Also, “Islamic” countries don’t even exist and haven’t existed since 1924, those countries of the middle east are run by Arabs, not Muslims. The wars have been fought over political reasons and arguments over land and the oppression of people.
What does circumnavigating the ka'ba, salat and the hajj pilgrimage have to do with Judaism?
One should then ask how much of today’s Judaism has to do with the ways of Abraham and Moses.
If you want to claim they are monotheism, well that goes for zoroastrains too are you close to zoroastrians, or didn't Mohammed just call them fire worshippers?
The difference is that Judaism is acknowledged to have come from a named Messenger with a named revelation.
how can the authors of 66 scriptural books spanning over 2,000 years not contradict each other
Are you being serious here? The gospels are not self-contradictory?
Why would proselytes to an alledged message for all mankind only convert via chanting the shahadah in arabic? and why do they most of the time take on an arabic name and their females forced into wearing the hijab which some wear to the point that it makes them almost deaf, dumb and blind?, does this look more like arab culturalisation than an intercession between God and his creation? why must the message for all mankind only to be understood unless you go to the original arabic a complicated and hard to understand language second only to Chinese
The reason most people like to change their names to ISLAMIC names (written in Arabic but not Arabic in nature) is because those names are usually the names of the Prophets in Arabic, or are a derivation of the word “hamd” to worship, or they mean “servant of [attribute of God]” and similar reasons. The words are by no means Arabic, since the pagan arabs used to name each other with frivolous names like “dog” or “horse fly”.
In addition, women are not and should not be forced to wear hijab. Those who do wear it by choice, and IF they are forced, they shouldn’t be because that’s oppressive, and the Qur’an overtly forbids that.
On the contrary, the pagan arabs detested the head scarf as much as you do. If you study most of the pagan arabs prior to Islam, they were serious fornicators and had little tolerance for women who did not expose themselves or “share” themselves communally.
When someone wants to be precise, they go to the Arabic Qur’an because that is the language it was revealed in and it is the most precise. The Qur’an word choice is so careful and profound you could only appreciate it if you studied it but the message is nonetheless the same even if it is properly translated. Plus most of my friends who don’t speak Arabic endeavor to learn the Qur’an in Arabic, and even if they don’t speak Arabic, they try to understand the meaning of the Qur’an from the Arabic text. Most reverts do the same but that doesn’t mean one cannot read and believe in their own languages.
Christianity was about removing legalism from communication with God now islam is fighting tooth and nail to get legalism into religion.
I think you misunderstand the purpose of legalism. Living by the word of God is the ultimate expression of submission to God, it is the ultimate trust in revelation. Most people think it suffices to believe but are not able or willing to completely submit themselves to God’s commandments because they deem it too difficult for them or because they love the world too much. However, the best belief is inward and outward expression thereof, and this is by emulating the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as the benchmark for humanity in his words and actions and lifestyle.
Scroll up, did Mohammed see the final copy kept by Uthmann while he burnt the other 99 codexs to see if it had zero deviance?
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/
so God needs to commune His message in eloquence? doesn't your koran say that it is written in simple arabic so that even a child could understand? so you believe the koran is from God because of the eloquence and the internal miracles? I would love to hear what exactly these miracles are, I hope you are also aware that Mohammed told Zaid (the final collector of the koran) to study the book of the jews, and poems from famous arabs were interlaced into the text, is this the eloquence you mean?
That’s one of the miracles of the Qur’an:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Miracle/
It is understandable by a child, but can be understood on so many levels. Anyone can understand the central message of Islam though just by reading the translation.
We believe the Qur’an is from God for several reasons beyond the eloquence and miracles. Look at its Messenger (pbuh) and its pristine transmission as well.
Actually, famous Arabs often plagiarized the Qur’an in THEIR poetry, but read the above site for more info, especially on things like what you’re claiming:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... Bqais.html
Notice how in Bukhari the angel apparently told him to read, but in muslim and tabari it said recite, was someone trying to remove away the accusation of why an omniscient God would ask an illiterate man to read?
The words for “recite” and “read” are the same word in Arabic, actually. So what you’re look at are the differences in translation.
where do you get the evidence that the jews were profiting from their way of life? you mean since they no longer followed the true religion in your opinion they were profiting from their way of life?
Why do you think Jesus was such a threat to the Jewish elite? Because he was sent with knowledge of the true Testament from God which the Jews had not preserved. It threatened their monopoly of interpretation and their secured way of life and not unlikely insulted them that Jesus (pbuh) would know more than them even as a youth.
could not the alternative scenario for sura 2:41 be that the jews were selling scriptures to Mohammed while Mohammed wanted it for free so he could incorporate it into his new religion? hence the sura was revealed
You do realize of course that the meanings of the verses, the exegeses, were explained by the Messenger. That’s where most exegeses comes from and that’s the point of Messengers coming with Scripture instead of the Scripture just materializing. The reason your statement is incoherent is because it’s asking whether there is an alternative explanation to the one given by the Messenger of the Qur’an itself.
viola a sura would be revealed to justify it
Have you ever noticed how every such instance brought an exception to a general rule for the sake of leniancy or broke a misconception which the pagan Arabs had?
I hope you realise the majority of imans in the sunni school of jurispundence believe in the hadiths, a great deal of islam would call you an apostate for picking and choosing which part of islam you want to believe in, and I hope you also realise the people who wrote the hadiths are the same people who wrote the koran, so if they incorporated lies into the hadiths how about the koran?
Absolutely not, please read my above posts and links about the hadiths and how they are NOT all the same authenticity and were NOT all transmitted by the same people, especially not the same as those who transmitted the Qur’an.
the gospel of barnabas when it contradicts your holy books but since it denies the diety of Jesus it must be true
Did you even read what I wrote about the G of B? I didn’t even GIVE that rationale, go scroll back up to read the about the significance of the G of B.
they have always said I will ask an iman or someone who is more knowledgeable, any blasphemy against the prophet is punishable by death, apostasy is punishable by death after a 3 day waiting grace, these are practiced by many an islamic country your liberal words and attitude am afraid is not the reality of islam in the majority of the world.
Well one should always ask someone with more knowledge:
“then ask those who possess the Message (Ahl adh-Dhikr) if you do not know.” (Soorah 21:7 and 16:43)
And your three following statements after that are just incorrect.
http://www.understanding-islam.com/rela ... on&qid=286
Peace bro,
Last edited by humble_guest on Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
- Preacher
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Peace humble guest,
Okay, I'm gonna try to keep my answers short because there's three of us and one of you.
The Jews are the ones that expect Elijah to come back again!
Jewish thought is not reliable.
I often check Bible readings with readings from the Jewish Tanakh to ensure it is not biased.
So humble, what makes you 100% sure that the Quran is the Word of Allah rather than a deceptive work of Satan or a well made human fabrication??
You are working backwards form the Quran, that is not the correct approach. Christians don't even do that with the Gospels!
I cann your way "backwards logic"
You should verify or disprove the Quran based on what comes before it, and use logic to fugure if what the Quran contains is in fact autentic and not fabricated.
That is quite some conjecturing!
You assume this, as I would assume the Quran contains apocrypal fables...but at least I have true historical evidence to support my belief.
I have apocryphal books to support my theory, wile you have nothing but your imagination.
Again, this is your conjectuibng, brough ton by an urge to justify your already questionable faith.
Th Apostles and the early Church believed that Jesus was the Lord.
They always called Him "Lord" and worshipped Him.
They believed the Spirit was from God, only modern Jewish thought is not the same as it was back in the day.
Some Essenes followe John the Baptist as the Messiah, they were a loopy bunch.
Actually I just saw a program about apocryphal writings last night on the History Channel, humble, about apocryphal stories. The baby Jesus story and other storied , some foun in the Quran, were very common among the early Christians. The compilers of the Bible had a very difficult time sorting through the very widely accepted books and the100's of other books. They picked the 27 books that we have today, which was a great success! They could have accepted all of the most widely accepted books into the Bible, like the Life of Adam and Eve, which contained the story about Satan refusing to bow to Adam.
In truth, the myths weren't hidden from the mases, they were the most common beliefs of the masses!!!
Dictionary.com says apocryphal means:
1 Of questionable authorship or authenticity.
2 Erroneous; fictitious: “Wildly apocryphal rumors about starvation in Petrograd... raced through Russia's trenches” (W. Bruce Lincoln)
The only deviant beliefs are about Jesus were from books like Pseudo -Mattew and Arabic Infancy Gospels.
No way to verify Jesus turned clay figures into birds!!!
When Jesus was on His ministry, the people of Nazareth were very surprised how wise Jesus was beacuse He was NOT this magical little boy that worked astonishing miracles, or the people would have not been impressed with Jesus as a man.
How could people have come up with that figure??? There's no way of telling!
Unitarians were indeeds the heretics because the Apostles and early Christians and Jewish Christiasn beliedv that Jesus was the Lord.
The Gospels clearly reveal that Jesus was divine.
Jesus's very birth is proof that He is divine.
By the Spirit of God all was beutifully worked out!
Well goodness! The Quran had all of there heretical myths!
And they totally misunderstood and corrupted their faith!
Those people were not true Christians.
Even alot of what the Quran says about Chrisyaismn reflects some of the different heretical Christians.
The Armenians were REAL Christians.
Christainity and Judaism is not compatable with Islam.
Interesting how people can be Jews and Christians at the exact same time...Trinitarian and all!!!
Can't do that with Islam, you have the outsider religion!!
What reliable source said that at 33 AD that was so??
Heresy was the greatest threat to Christianity, and hey the greater half were those that believed in the Trinity...are they necessarily the heresy?
The Trinity is not invented, but was an integral part of the Gospels.
The Unitarian heresy would have kept the "original" Gospel, so why haven't such a manuscript been found?
See how flaky this argument gets???
So, why not the Gospel being memorized and written down????
A Gospel book is alot shorter than the Quran, and we have 4 of them!
You have to real evidence to even say the Gospels are corrupt, you assume this becauise the Gospels don't match the Quran. Again, backwards circular logic.
The Quran says:
[23.102] Then as for him whose good deeds are preponderant, these are the successful.
[23.103] And as for him whose good deeds are light, these are they who shall have lost their souls, abiding in hell
The Denkard, an important compilation of Zoroastrian beliefs, says:
Denkard, Book Five 9:2
Of what manner now are Heaven and Hell? Heaven begin. with the exalted Satarpaya, and Hell is below the surface of the earth. Heaven is luminous, fragrant, bliss-giving, and possessed of all sorts of brilliancy and charm. Hell is dark, full of wretchedness, stinking, lusterless, and given to every misery. In these (Heaven and Hell) there are many sort, of double bliss and double misery respectively. (Such bliss and misery) exist not on the earth that hes between. In the abodes of Satarpaya and Hamistagan are (the souls) both (of) the departed and the dead* having in them an admixture (of merits and sins.) Of them he that has the preponderance of righteousness has the passage to Heaven (i.e. to Satarpaya), while he whose sins are in excess is on the pathway to Hell; and he whose sins and meritorious deeds are in equal proportion has his abode in Hamistagan. What sorts of abodes are there in these three places of different grades? Of these sorts -the first full of bliss and charm, the second devoid of happiness and full of misery, and the third having a combination of the (awards of) righteous purity and sin.
The Vendidad, the Persian's Torah, teaches this:
Vendidad 3:42.
'In the same way the Religion of Mazda, O Spitama Zarathushtra! cleanses the faithful from every evil thought, word, and deed, as a swift-rushing mighty wind cleanses the plain.
'So let all the deeds he doeth be henceforth good, O Zarathushtra! a full atonement for his sin is effected by means of the Religion of Mazda.'
I am a firm Evolutionist, so this argument carries no weight with me.
No way! Many instances was Jesus worshipped in the Gospels, and He did not once stop it!! Even Daniel sees the Son of Man being worshipped by the nations!!
Only it contains fabricated myths!!!!!
Hey, there is a lack of proof that Jesus made clay figure and turned then into birds!!!
Do you realize how flaky such stories are??
Take your time answering, friend, you're busy little bee with us three.
Okay, I'm gonna try to keep my answers short because there's three of us and one of you.
There’s no question that the OT foretells the coming of Jesus the Messiah. Apart from that, all the passages you’ve shown regarding the Trinitarian conception of Jesus have solid alternative explanations by the Jews, especially when they claim that the OT in the Bible was translated with a bias to promote the Christian interpretations.
The Jews are the ones that expect Elijah to come back again!
Jewish thought is not reliable.
I often check Bible readings with readings from the Jewish Tanakh to ensure it is not biased.
Not at all friend. I have complete faith in God. That’s the first step. The second step is wanting to live by God’s word. Hundreds of religions CLAIM they hold God’s word, but you have to use your intellect to test these claims. Everyone wants to be a Prophet, but you have to test their signs, that’s why God always sends His Messengers with signs. Anyone who spends a lifetime following a book when they aren’t sure it’s from God are being dangerously negligent with their lives.
So humble, what makes you 100% sure that the Quran is the Word of Allah rather than a deceptive work of Satan or a well made human fabrication??
The good mind has to first ask himself, where are these stories found? They are found in the Qur’an. Ask yourself what raises the Qur’an above all other Scriptures? The Qur’an is itself a sign from God, that’s why we know that it contains only Truth. That’s why its claims supercede those of lesser texts of questionable origin, and when it was revealed has no bearing on what it contains. The word of God is eternal and Truth, it will describe the origins of the Universe even if written billions of years later.
You are working backwards form the Quran, that is not the correct approach. Christians don't even do that with the Gospels!
I cann your way "backwards logic"
You should verify or disprove the Quran based on what comes before it, and use logic to fugure if what the Quran contains is in fact autentic and not fabricated.
I think you’re speaking in extremes now. Nobody is saying that someone took the Bible and completely rewrote it such that everything in it is false. A LOT of Jesus’ teachings remain, many prophecies remain in tact, people didn’t re-author the text and distort it this grossly. However, there is little doubt that extraneous beliefs crept into it after Jesus’ (pbuh) ascension because it was such a mysterious event. People began explaining by conjecture since Jesus was no longer there to explain it. Instead of living strictly by the teachings of Jesus while he was on earth for 30 some years, people took the events of his last few days and remodeled the religion.
That is quite some conjecturing!
You assume this, as I would assume the Quran contains apocrypal fables...but at least I have true historical evidence to support my belief.
I have apocryphal books to support my theory, wile you have nothing but your imagination.
Believer, do you know how large and for how long the Unitarian Christian community lasted in the middle East? They were practically equal if not larger than the Trinitarian community, and they continued to preach the True Message of Jesus and his life. It shouldn’t surprise you at all that they would have recorded a similar story as that revealed in the Qur’an. These stories were labeled as “mythical” to the masses when the Church began collecting and withholding the texts from the public, that’s what “apocryphal” means, it means “hidden from the people”
Again, this is your conjectuibng, brough ton by an urge to justify your already questionable faith.
Th Apostles and the early Church believed that Jesus was the Lord.
They always called Him "Lord" and worshipped Him.
They believed the Spirit was from God, only modern Jewish thought is not the same as it was back in the day.
Some Essenes followe John the Baptist as the Messiah, they were a loopy bunch.
Actually I just saw a program about apocryphal writings last night on the History Channel, humble, about apocryphal stories. The baby Jesus story and other storied , some foun in the Quran, were very common among the early Christians. The compilers of the Bible had a very difficult time sorting through the very widely accepted books and the100's of other books. They picked the 27 books that we have today, which was a great success! They could have accepted all of the most widely accepted books into the Bible, like the Life of Adam and Eve, which contained the story about Satan refusing to bow to Adam.
In truth, the myths weren't hidden from the mases, they were the most common beliefs of the masses!!!
Dictionary.com says apocryphal means:
1 Of questionable authorship or authenticity.
2 Erroneous; fictitious: “Wildly apocryphal rumors about starvation in Petrograd... raced through Russia's trenches” (W. Bruce Lincoln)
What haven’t I applied to my beliefs? I’m telling you that before we even examine what’s INSIDE our books, we need to study WHERE they came from. At least we know beyond a doubt that the Qur’an we have today is the one that the Prophet Muhammad spoke, memorized and oversaw transcribed. We know that the way the Prophet Muhammad lived his life is the way we currently live our lives. This is not something any Christian can say. People don’t know how Jesus prayed, how he ate, how he supplicated to God. They only recorded this after he had gone, after NOONE could verify whether what was being written was correct. They could NEVER be sure what they wrote was what Jesus would have approved. In addition, Jesus’ teachings ended obviously after the events of the crucifixion whereas the Bible’s teachings REVOLVE around this event which Jesus did not explain nor had the opportunity to correct deviant beliefs thereon.
The only deviant beliefs are about Jesus were from books like Pseudo -Mattew and Arabic Infancy Gospels.
No way to verify Jesus turned clay figures into birds!!!
When Jesus was on His ministry, the people of Nazareth were very surprised how wise Jesus was beacuse He was NOT this magical little boy that worked astonishing miracles, or the people would have not been impressed with Jesus as a man.
Did you know that at the time of Nicaea, roughly 50% of the Christian world was Unitarian? Half of the Christians believed in the Divine Unity and the Prophethood of Jesus the Messiah.
How could people have come up with that figure??? There's no way of telling!
Unitarians were indeeds the heretics because the Apostles and early Christians and Jewish Christiasn beliedv that Jesus was the Lord.
The Gospels clearly reveal that Jesus was divine.
Jesus's very birth is proof that He is divine.
Arius was defined as heretical AFTER the hegemony of the Trinitarian church re-evaluated all the claims of the debate of Nicaea. During the time, Christians were honestly debating what they did not clearly understand about Jesus’ mysterious nature and virgin birth.
By the Spirit of God all was beutifully worked out!
This is a myth. The Unitarian Christians of the middle east didn’t even NEED to be pressured. Look at the history, they converted IMMEDIATELY after hearing of Islam. It was almost instantaneous because they RECOGNIZED what they had always known. That God is One and Jesus is His Messiah and beloved Messenger. At the time of Islam, all of Northern Africa, Syria, Jordan, Iraq were practically 100% Christian. Years later, only small patches like the Armenians in the North remained because all the Unitarian Christians recognized the message. The Armenians were Trinitarian since Nicaea which is why they were not as influenced.
Well goodness! The Quran had all of there heretical myths!
And they totally misunderstood and corrupted their faith!
Those people were not true Christians.
Even alot of what the Quran says about Chrisyaismn reflects some of the different heretical Christians.
The Armenians were REAL Christians.
Christainity and Judaism is not compatable with Islam.
Interesting how people can be Jews and Christians at the exact same time...Trinitarian and all!!!
Can't do that with Islam, you have the outsider religion!!
Actually the Unitarians had been in equal numbers to the Trinitarians SINCE 33 AD. Their numbers began to dwindle only as they were massacred by the Trinitarian authorities over the centuries. Didn’t you always wonder why the Christians were fighting so brutally during the first half of the millennium? Did you think it was just “True Christians” vs. the “heretics”? Heretics are usually fringe groups, not HALF of the entire population of Christianity
What reliable source said that at 33 AD that was so??
Heresy was the greatest threat to Christianity, and hey the greater half were those that believed in the Trinity...are they necessarily the heresy?
The Trinity is not invented, but was an integral part of the Gospels.
The Unitarian heresy would have kept the "original" Gospel, so why haven't such a manuscript been found?
See how flaky this argument gets???
And remember that the entire Quran was memorized, a parallel system of complete memorization and transcription around the Muslim world ensured that no collusion could have taken place to corrupt the message.
So, why not the Gospel being memorized and written down????
A Gospel book is alot shorter than the Quran, and we have 4 of them!
You have to real evidence to even say the Gospels are corrupt, you assume this becauise the Gospels don't match the Quran. Again, backwards circular logic.
Look at my signature as well as this hadith:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There is none whose deeds alone would entitle him to get into Paradise. It was said to him: And, Allah's Messenger, not even you? Thereupon he said: Not even I, but that my Lord wraps me in Mercy.
It is dangerously incorrect to believe that one’s deeds alone will get you to Heaven, this is what Apologetics claim to distort the issue of salvation of Islam.
One’s good deeds testify FOR him on the day of Judgement, but belief is by far more important than a lifetime of good deeds. Look to the hadith for this yourself. How many stories are there of people who lived PURELY sinful lives, but before they died they repented sincerely, and are reported to have gone to Heaven. Deeds come into play when one has believed. You have stories of believers who reportedly went to Heaven for having Believed and done a single good deed in their life.
Jews also repent directly to God.
The Quran says:
[23.102] Then as for him whose good deeds are preponderant, these are the successful.
[23.103] And as for him whose good deeds are light, these are they who shall have lost their souls, abiding in hell
The Denkard, an important compilation of Zoroastrian beliefs, says:
Denkard, Book Five 9:2
Of what manner now are Heaven and Hell? Heaven begin. with the exalted Satarpaya, and Hell is below the surface of the earth. Heaven is luminous, fragrant, bliss-giving, and possessed of all sorts of brilliancy and charm. Hell is dark, full of wretchedness, stinking, lusterless, and given to every misery. In these (Heaven and Hell) there are many sort, of double bliss and double misery respectively. (Such bliss and misery) exist not on the earth that hes between. In the abodes of Satarpaya and Hamistagan are (the souls) both (of) the departed and the dead* having in them an admixture (of merits and sins.) Of them he that has the preponderance of righteousness has the passage to Heaven (i.e. to Satarpaya), while he whose sins are in excess is on the pathway to Hell; and he whose sins and meritorious deeds are in equal proportion has his abode in Hamistagan. What sorts of abodes are there in these three places of different grades? Of these sorts -the first full of bliss and charm, the second devoid of happiness and full of misery, and the third having a combination of the (awards of) righteous purity and sin.
The Vendidad, the Persian's Torah, teaches this:
Vendidad 3:42.
'In the same way the Religion of Mazda, O Spitama Zarathushtra! cleanses the faithful from every evil thought, word, and deed, as a swift-rushing mighty wind cleanses the plain.
'So let all the deeds he doeth be henceforth good, O Zarathushtra! a full atonement for his sin is effected by means of the Religion of Mazda.'
Neither were Adam or Eve. Remember that God can create whatever He wills, there is no need to use conjecture to invent explanations.
I am a firm Evolutionist, so this argument carries no weight with me.
Jesus (pbuh) had to consistently remind people not to worship him. As you yourself know, many people did not know how to interpret the virgin birth and tried to worship Jesus but Jesus himself corrected this association.
No way! Many instances was Jesus worshipped in the Gospels, and He did not once stop it!! Even Daniel sees the Son of Man being worshipped by the nations!!
No that’s obviously not true, but what I do know is that the Qur’an has infinitely more evidence of its authenticity than does any other Scripture.
Only it contains fabricated myths!!!!!
Hey, there is a lack of proof that Jesus made clay figure and turned then into birds!!!
Do you realize how flaky such stories are??
Take your time answering, friend, you're busy little bee with us three.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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humble_guest
- Preacher
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 03:12 am
Okay, I'm gonna try to keep my answers short because there's three of us and one of you.
THANKS! Haha, did you get a look at those long posts? That was brutal.
The Jews are the ones that expect Elijah to come back again!
Jewish thought is not reliable.
I agree, but that isn’t to say that you can throw away their interpretations since Christians and Jews are interpreting from the same text. As I mentioned, one of the reasons why Jesus (pbuh) wasn’t so easily accepted by all Jews as the Messiah is because their Scripture had changed and with it the criteria for the Messiah.
So humble, what makes you 100% sure that the Quran is the Word of Allah rather than a deceptive work of Satan or a well made human fabrication??
That’s a good question, and here’s a short list
1. I am comforted by everything it says, both rationally and in my heart.
2. It claims to be divine revelation
3. It was revealed to the unlettered Messenger with the highest character.
4. less technical reasons http://www.pearls.org/TheHolyBook/wordofgod.html
5. authenticity http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/
6. No other Scripture is equal in its claims to divine revelation
You should verify or disprove the Quran based on what comes before it, and use logic to fugure if what the Quran contains is in fact autentic and not fabricated.
Please, read these:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... cause.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... cause.html
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/ig.php
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/posthoc.php
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/post-hoc.html
You assume this, as I would assume the Quran contains apocrypal fables...but at least I have true historical evidence to support my belief.
I have apocryphal books to support my theory, wile you have nothing but your imagination.
First of all, the fact that the stories in the books are similar to those in the Qur’an does NOT even imply that the Qur’an is based on them, please read the above links.
Second of all, I wasn’t basing my paragraph on conjecture. Do you disagree that it’s strange that noone wrote anything of what Jesus (pbuh) said and did while he was on earth so that its doctrine could be verified by him. Yet after the circumstances of the crucifixion, when Jesus was no longer around to authenticate or rebuke the theological claims made about it, a plethora of writing emerged?
Th Apostles and the early Church believed that Jesus was the Lord.
Certainly not all of them. I think you have an exaggerated sense of how monolithic the Christian movement was after Jesus’ (pbuh) ascension. There was serious strife between the Unitarians and Trinitarians.
Dictionary.com says apocryphal means:
1 Of questionable authorship or authenticity.
2 Erroneous; fictitious: “Wildly apocryphal rumors about starvation in Petrograd... raced through Russia's trenches” (W. Bruce Lincoln)
Dictionary.com says apocrypha means:
[Middle English apocripha, not authentic, from Late Latin Apocrypha, the Apocrypha, from Greek Apokrupha, neuter pl. of apokruphos, secret, hidden, from apokruptein, to hide away : apo-, apo- + kruptein, kruph-, to hide.]
http://www.google.ca/search?q=dictionar ... 8&oe=UTF-8
No way to verify Jesus turned clay figures into birds
Weighing in all the miracles of Jesus, this one seems impossible to you? There’s no way to prove any miracles besides referring to Scripture.
How could people have come up with that figure??? There's no way of telling!
Doesn’t have to be exact, the point is that they weren’t always a minority.
Unitarians were indeeds the heretics because the Apostles and early Christians and Jewish Christiasn beliedv that Jesus was the Lord.
Unitarian Christians existed throughout history and included the companions of Jesus and the early Church fathers.
Jesus's very birth is proof that He is divine.
Why? Do you consider Adam or Eve divine?
The Gospels clearly reveal that Jesus was divine.
So you must first evaluate the authenticity of the Gospels.
By the Spirit of God all was beutifully worked out!
I believe that’s what was said after Arius was assassinated a day before he was to be reinstated as Bishop of his area Church.
Heresy was the greatest threat to Christianity, and hey the greater half were those that believed in the Trinity...are they necessarily the heresy?
Yes heresy is always a threat, except at the time people didn’t know WHO was heretical, they had to debate over it. The “heretic” is the one who didn’t survive.
The Unitarian heresy would have kept the "original" Gospel, so why haven't such a manuscript been found?
Do you realize how systematically “apocryphal texts” were destroyed by the Church?
So, why not the Gospel being memorized and written down????
A Gospel book is alot shorter than the Quran, and we have 4 of them!
You have to real evidence to even say the Gospels are corrupt, you assume this becauise the Gospels don't match the Quran. Again, backwards circular logic.
I would be thoroughly impressed if there was proof of a gospel that existed before Jesus’ ascension that was both memorized and transcribed. There can’t be proof of corruption, but there can be evidence of how late the gospels were written after Jesus’ ascension and how poorly they were preserved.
I am a firm Evolutionist, so this argument carries no weight with me.
So you believe Adam and Eve evolved from Bacteria? Run me through the evolutionary ladder all the way through to the account given in the Bible about Adam and Eve.
[23.102] Then as for him whose good deeds are preponderant, these are the successful.
[23.103] And as for him whose good deeds are light, these are they who shall have lost their souls, abiding in hell
Obviously your deeds will testify for you or against you on the day of Judgement, but that doesn’t mean you can get away with disbelief if you did good deeds.
No way! Many instances was Jesus worshipped in the Gospels, and He did not once stop it!! Even Daniel sees the Son of Man being worshipped by the nations!!
Do you have proof besides the Gospels for that? Otherwise wouldn’t that be circular logic by your definition?
Hey, there is a lack of proof that Jesus made clay figure and turned then into birds!!!
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/ig.php
All I can tell you is that the evidence is in divine revelation. You can’t produce a photograph or archeological evidence for this miracle.
Peace bros
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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humble_guest
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The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
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- Posts: 1462
- Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 03:42 am
- Location: South
Peace humble guest,
Actually that is not so, humble, it's not that the Jews corrupted their scriptures, but they just didn't understand what was said in thier scriptures.
The Jews, like you Muslims today, rely too much on what your scholars say (like the Midrash and Talmud of the ancient Jews), and your scholars lie and speak out of total misunderstandimg of Christianity, they mislead you. So Jewish scholars misinterpreted their scriptures.
This stuff is kind of weird, I don't understand it.
Not similar, identicle except for one or two minor disparities in a compele story.
Now with the expulsion of Satan story in the Quran there are two unrelated myths that have been patchworked together.
Angels bowing to Adam and Satan refusing to bow to a lower creation...this came from the apocryphal Jewish story The Life of Adam and Eve, and then Satan exclaims he'll seek to mislead and destroy God's good creation and an appointed period of time is set until Satan is destroyed...this came from Persian apocryphal writing the Bundahishn (The Creation)
There were alot of writings about the King of the Jews being killed by the Jews, and Christus being crucified, and weird ellipse occuring the same time of the crucifixion.
What you say is pure conjecture.
The Apostles witnessed the Crucifixion and saw the Resurreected Jesus, and they spread this holy Good News to the nations!
The Greek derivative meant hidden, but that is not the definition of apocryphal.
None of Jesus's miracles were cheap parlour tricks!!!
Also, Jesus grew up like any other Jewish child, or the Gospels would have had these storied. They had the story of the Wisemen and the Star and stuff, but the other Infancy Gospels contradict the Gospel story.
When Christ wen to Nazareth, the people could not believe that He was a miraculous prophet! They did not kknoew him as this magical child portrayed in myth books written centuries after Jesus lived!
They are authenticated by the Prophets' writings and Psalms...can't do that with Islam. No sir!
Those that COMPILED, they didn't write from thought, the 4 Gospels had little writings from witnesses and accounts from witnesses, some of whom were indeed the Apostles, and this was the Gospel.
God made Adam and Eve from the "dust of the earth", not literally dirt but something from this world.
I believe that God took some hominids and molded them in His divine image, thus making the first man and woman.
We are earthly beings, not heavenly beings.
Adam was not from heaven nore did the angels bow to him...such is nothing less than rubbish from an apocryphal story.
Thus Spake Zarathustra!
Errr..yeah, Daniel saw the Son of Man being worshipped by the nations and peoples!!!!
And I do not see your revelation as valid or from God.
In fact, we do not truly follow the same God.
Your "jesus" is not the real Jesus Christ, but a derived figure from late writings.
Have a good day!
THANKS! Haha, did you get a look at those long posts? That was brutal.
I agree, but that isn’t to say that you can throw away their interpretations since Christians and Jews are interpreting from the same text. As I mentioned, one of the reasons why Jesus (pbuh) wasn’t so easily accepted by all Jews as the Messiah is because their Scripture had changed and with it the criteria for the Messiah.
Actually that is not so, humble, it's not that the Jews corrupted their scriptures, but they just didn't understand what was said in thier scriptures.
The Jews, like you Muslims today, rely too much on what your scholars say (like the Midrash and Talmud of the ancient Jews), and your scholars lie and speak out of total misunderstandimg of Christianity, they mislead you. So Jewish scholars misinterpreted their scriptures.
That’s a good question, and here’s a short list
1. I am comforted by everything it says, both rationally and in my heart.
Maybe you you, but not for me. The Gospels are like this to me.
2. It claims to be divine revelation
So does every writing fron every false prophet...this argument holds no weight
3. It was revealed to the unlettered Messenger with the highest character.
Lack or real proof that the great Muhammed was unlettered
4. less technical reasons http://www.pearls.org/TheHolyBook/wordofgod.html
Not impressed
5. authenticity http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/
not impressed
6. No other Scripture is equal in its claims to divine revelation
A writing either claims divine revelation or not
This stuff is kind of weird, I don't understand it.
First of all, the fact that the stories in the books are similar to those in the Qur’an does NOT even imply that the Qur’an is based on them, please read the above links.
Not similar, identicle except for one or two minor disparities in a compele story.
Now with the expulsion of Satan story in the Quran there are two unrelated myths that have been patchworked together.
Angels bowing to Adam and Satan refusing to bow to a lower creation...this came from the apocryphal Jewish story The Life of Adam and Eve, and then Satan exclaims he'll seek to mislead and destroy God's good creation and an appointed period of time is set until Satan is destroyed...this came from Persian apocryphal writing the Bundahishn (The Creation)
Second of all, I wasn’t basing my paragraph on conjecture. Do you disagree that it’s strange that noone wrote anything of what Jesus (pbuh) said and did while he was on earth so that its doctrine could be verified by him. Yet after the circumstances of the crucifixion, when Jesus was no longer around to authenticate or rebuke the theological claims made about it, a plethora of writing emerged?
There were alot of writings about the King of the Jews being killed by the Jews, and Christus being crucified, and weird ellipse occuring the same time of the crucifixion.
Certainly not all of them. I think you have an exaggerated sense of how monolithic the Christian movement was after Jesus’ (pbuh) ascension. There was serious strife between the Unitarians and Trinitarians.
What you say is pure conjecture.
The Apostles witnessed the Crucifixion and saw the Resurreected Jesus, and they spread this holy Good News to the nations!
Dictionary.com says apocrypha means:
[Middle English apocripha, not authentic, from Late Latin Apocrypha, the Apocrypha, from Greek Apokrupha, neuter pl. of apokruphos, secret, hidden, from apokruptein, to hide away : apo-, apo- + kruptein, kruph-, to hide.]
The Greek derivative meant hidden, but that is not the definition of apocryphal.
Weighing in all the miracles of Jesus, this one seems impossible to you? There’s no way to prove any miracles besides referring to Scripture.
None of Jesus's miracles were cheap parlour tricks!!!
Also, Jesus grew up like any other Jewish child, or the Gospels would have had these storied. They had the story of the Wisemen and the Star and stuff, but the other Infancy Gospels contradict the Gospel story.
When Christ wen to Nazareth, the people could not believe that He was a miraculous prophet! They did not kknoew him as this magical child portrayed in myth books written centuries after Jesus lived!
So you must first evaluate the authenticity of the Gospels.
They are authenticated by the Prophets' writings and Psalms...can't do that with Islam. No sir!
I would be thoroughly impressed if there was proof of a gospel that existed before Jesus’ ascension that was both memorized and transcribed. There can’t be proof of corruption, but there can be evidence of how late the gospels were written after Jesus’ ascension and how poorly they were preserved.
Those that COMPILED, they didn't write from thought, the 4 Gospels had little writings from witnesses and accounts from witnesses, some of whom were indeed the Apostles, and this was the Gospel.
So you believe Adam and Eve evolved from Bacteria? Run me through the evolutionary ladder all the way through to the account given in the Bible about Adam and Eve.
God made Adam and Eve from the "dust of the earth", not literally dirt but something from this world.
I believe that God took some hominids and molded them in His divine image, thus making the first man and woman.
We are earthly beings, not heavenly beings.
Adam was not from heaven nore did the angels bow to him...such is nothing less than rubbish from an apocryphal story.
Obviously your deeds will testify for you or against you on the day of Judgement, but that doesn’t mean you can get away with disbelief if you did good deeds.
Thus Spake Zarathustra!
Do you have proof besides the Gospels for that? Otherwise wouldn’t that be circular logic by your definition?
Errr..yeah, Daniel saw the Son of Man being worshipped by the nations and peoples!!!!
All I can tell you is that the evidence is in divine revelation. You can’t produce a photograph or archeological evidence for this miracle.
And I do not see your revelation as valid or from God.
In fact, we do not truly follow the same God.
Your "jesus" is not the real Jesus Christ, but a derived figure from late writings.
Have a good day!
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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humble_guest
- Preacher
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 03:12 am
Actually that is not so, humble, it's not that the Jews corrupted their scriptures, but they just didn't understand what was said in thier scriptures.
The Jews, like you Muslims today, rely too much on what your scholars say (like the Midrash and Talmud of the ancient Jews), and your scholars lie and speak out of total misunderstandimg of Christianity, they mislead you. So Jewish scholars misinterpreted their scriptures.
Don't worry friend, I don't ask scholars about Trinitarian Christianity, I ask Christians directly.
Not similar, identicle except for one or two minor disparities in a compele story.
Now with the expulsion of Satan story in the Quran there are two unrelated myths that have been patchworked together.
Angels bowing to Adam and Satan refusing to bow to a lower creation...this came from the apocryphal Jewish story The Life of Adam and Eve, and then Satan exclaims he'll seek to mislead and destroy God's good creation and an appointed period of time is set until Satan is destroyed...this came from Persian apocryphal writing the Bundahishn (The Creation)
Ok let's take things one step at a time.
You are either claiming on of two things or both.
1) These accounts are apocrphyal and false, and the Qur'an has similar accounts so the QUr'an is also false.
2) The Qur'an was forged from these apocryphal texts based solely on the fact that the texts were written before the Qur'an.
To prove (1) you have to show that the accounts are indeed false. If you're saying they're apocryphal just because they don't match the Bible's accounts, then by definition you'd consider the Qur'an apocryphal and you shouldn't even be interested on whether or not any other account is similar to the Qur'an's since you already think the Qur'an contradicts the Bible and is therefore false.
2) To prove this you have to show how and when the opportunity for forgery would arise, when it happened, and reconcile this with the historical accounts of the revelation and transmission of the Qur'an. Then you would have to show that the similarity is NOT based on a third reason, which is that the accounts (where they match the divine revelation of the Qur'an) are in fact TRUE and the reason they are found in the apocryphal texts is because they are transmitted by Unitarian followers of Jesus (pbuh).
There were alot of writings about the King of the Jews being killed by the Jews, and Christus being crucified, and weird ellipse occuring the same time of the crucifixion.
If people thought that God incarnate was walking the Earth, don't you think there would be more effort than that to record his every saying and move and protect it from conjecture? Why would any person wait years after the disappearance of Jesus (pbuh) before writing these accounts? Why did they not do so DURING his time on earth so that he could authenticate what was written himself?
The Apostles witnessed the Crucifixion and saw the Resurreected Jesus, and they spread this holy Good News to the nations!
Four non-conflicting eye-witness accounts? Do you have historical proof or is this just what you believe or are you just trying to pass this on to me? Man, not even Christian Historians and Theologians who ARDENTLY defend their faith make that claim in their defense, so why do you insult me like this?
The Greek derivative meant hidden, but that is not the definition of apocryphal.
The Greek derivative? It's the very origin of the word and it's "apocrypha". "Apocryphal" is the adjective and is the derivative.
None of Jesus's miracles were cheap parlour tricks
The animation of non-living things by the will of God is a cheap parlour trick?
the people could not believe that He was a miraculous prophet! They did not kknoew him as this magical child portrayed in myth books written centuries after Jesus lived!
He wasn't magical, he was miraculous. You're insulting Jesus (pbuh) and disbelieving when you deny some of his miracles but esteem others.
can't do that with Islam. No sir
When you're ready to research Islam and learn, pm me. Otherwise I won't be able to convince you that you're deluged with orientalist pseudo-history and libel.
Errr..yeah, Daniel saw the Son of Man being worshipped by the nations and peoples!!!!
We're going around in circles, read what the Jews have said regarding those prophecies and to what they refer and how the mistranslations account for the varied interpretations.
I believe that God took some hominids and molded them in His divine image, thus making the first man and woman.
Expand on this. So you believe the hominids evolved from bacteria and THEN that happened? Where does it say that in the Bible or are you conjecturing?
And I do not see your revelation as valid or from God.
Well that's why it's called disbelief.
In fact, we do not truly follow the same God.
I follow Jesus' (pbuh) God.
Peace bro,
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
- Preacher
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 03:42 am
- Location: South
Peace humble guest,
Hey, it's good our discussion has shortened alot.
Now we can focus on the most important arguments.
Okay, well if you have any questions, feel free to ask us here.
Okay, so I'll repeat myself again.
I will present what is required to support my belief.
This is a very important argument.
The writers if the Gospels did not have enough information about Jesus's childhood, so that chapter is left pretty blank. Understand that the writers of the Gospels were honestly trying to write an accurate account of Jesus's life.
Centuries after Jesus died, early Christians became very curious about what Jesus did as a child. This drive to know caused many people to contrive fables and myths to entertain the people's curiosity.
And we get such things as the Infancy Gospels and Pseudo-Matthew, and other apocryphal writings surroidning the Prophets and various Bible stories.
Matthew 13:53-38
53When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there. 54Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?" they asked. 55"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" 57And they took offense at him.
But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor."
58And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.
Now of course you'd like to argue over the authenticity of the Gospels, but I would certainly trust a document compiled a few decades after Jesus lived than documents written centuries after Jesus lived.
Authenticity heavily relies on the range of time a document is compiled after an event.
Now Jesus didn't speak as a child or work little miracles as a child or the people of Nazarether, Jesus's hometown, would NOT have been surprised He was a wise and miraculous person.
But they were very surprised because Jesus was just like a normal Jewish child.
This is a logical reasonable argument that I have presented.
What do you believe about what I presented?
The Apostles likely did write things down, and certainly they were witnesses that gave information to the Gospelers that compiled the Gospels. Understand that the Gospels were compilations.
Most of the Apostles likely were illiterate, so they spread the Good News by word-of-mouth.
Their very early Christian communities did believe that Jesus was the Lord that died for our sins (as Isaiah said) and ressurected, that was the Good News! That is what "gospel" means!
We English speaking people use the English word "apocryphal" to mean "not authentic".
That's what I do believe.
And certainly making clay molds of birds and making them real, that is very pointless and silly. God did not and would not do that.
Those who contrived thees myths to appease curious Christians have insulted Jesus Christ.
Man, what are you talking about???
I said: They[the Gospels] are authenticated by the Prophets' writings and Psalms...can't do that with Islam. No sir!
I stated a truth, and even Matthew list a bunch of prophecies that Jesus fulfilled, and many were not listed.
You put these prophecies together, and here is the story of Jesus as presented in the Gospels!!!
Now where does the Quran list OT or NT prophecies in support of the claims the Quran presents about Muhammed being the final prophet?
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the Ancient of days, and he was brought near before Him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:13-14, JEWISH TANAKH
How can we interpret this???
We see the Son of Man being worshipped by the peoples and nations!
He has an everlasting kingdom!
This is very much verified as Jesus in the Gospels.
What could this mean in regareds to Islam???
Hey, it's good our discussion has shortened alot.
Now we can focus on the most important arguments.
Don't worry friend, I don't ask scholars about Trinitarian Christianity, I ask Christians directly.
Okay, well if you have any questions, feel free to ask us here.
2) To prove this you have to show how and when the opportunity for forgery would arise, when it happened, and reconcile this with the historical accounts of the revelation and transmission of the Qur'an. Then you would have to show that the similarity is NOT based on a third reason, which is that the accounts (where they match the divine revelation of the Qur'an) are in fact TRUE and the reason they are found in the apocryphal texts is because they are transmitted by Unitarian followers of Jesus (pbuh).
Okay, so I'll repeat myself again.
I will present what is required to support my belief.
This is a very important argument.
The writers if the Gospels did not have enough information about Jesus's childhood, so that chapter is left pretty blank. Understand that the writers of the Gospels were honestly trying to write an accurate account of Jesus's life.
Centuries after Jesus died, early Christians became very curious about what Jesus did as a child. This drive to know caused many people to contrive fables and myths to entertain the people's curiosity.
And we get such things as the Infancy Gospels and Pseudo-Matthew, and other apocryphal writings surroidning the Prophets and various Bible stories.
Matthew 13:53-38
53When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there. 54Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?" they asked. 55"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" 57And they took offense at him.
But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor."
58And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.
Now of course you'd like to argue over the authenticity of the Gospels, but I would certainly trust a document compiled a few decades after Jesus lived than documents written centuries after Jesus lived.
Authenticity heavily relies on the range of time a document is compiled after an event.
Now Jesus didn't speak as a child or work little miracles as a child or the people of Nazarether, Jesus's hometown, would NOT have been surprised He was a wise and miraculous person.
But they were very surprised because Jesus was just like a normal Jewish child.
This is a logical reasonable argument that I have presented.
What do you believe about what I presented?
If people thought that God incarnate was walking the Earth, don't you think there would be more effort than that to record his every saying and move and protect it from conjecture? Why would any person wait years after the disappearance of Jesus (pbuh) before writing these accounts? Why did they not do so DURING his time on earth so that he could authenticate what was written himself?
Four non-conflicting eye-witness accounts? Do you have historical proof or is this just what you believe or are you just trying to pass this on to me? Man, not even Christian Historians and Theologians who ARDENTLY defend their faith make that claim in their defense, so why do you insult me like this?
The Apostles likely did write things down, and certainly they were witnesses that gave information to the Gospelers that compiled the Gospels. Understand that the Gospels were compilations.
Most of the Apostles likely were illiterate, so they spread the Good News by word-of-mouth.
Their very early Christian communities did believe that Jesus was the Lord that died for our sins (as Isaiah said) and ressurected, that was the Good News! That is what "gospel" means!
The Greek derivative? It's the very origin of the word and it's "apocrypha". "Apocryphal" is the adjective and is the derivative.
We English speaking people use the English word "apocryphal" to mean "not authentic".
The animation of non-living things by the will of God is a cheap parlour trick?
That's what I do believe.
And certainly making clay molds of birds and making them real, that is very pointless and silly. God did not and would not do that.
He wasn't magical, he was miraculous. You're insulting Jesus (pbuh) and disbelieving when you deny some of his miracles but esteem others.
Those who contrived thees myths to appease curious Christians have insulted Jesus Christ.
When you're ready to research Islam and learn, pm me. Otherwise I won't be able to convince you that you're deluged with orientalist pseudo-history and libel.
Man, what are you talking about???
I said: They[the Gospels] are authenticated by the Prophets' writings and Psalms...can't do that with Islam. No sir!
I stated a truth, and even Matthew list a bunch of prophecies that Jesus fulfilled, and many were not listed.
You put these prophecies together, and here is the story of Jesus as presented in the Gospels!!!
Now where does the Quran list OT or NT prophecies in support of the claims the Quran presents about Muhammed being the final prophet?
We're going around in circles, read what the Jews have said regarding those prophecies and to what they refer and how the mistranslations account for the varied interpretations.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the Ancient of days, and he was brought near before Him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:13-14, JEWISH TANAKH
How can we interpret this???
We see the Son of Man being worshipped by the peoples and nations!
He has an everlasting kingdom!
This is very much verified as Jesus in the Gospels.
What could this mean in regareds to Islam???
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
-
littleshepard
- Preacher
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 02:13 am
Peace humble guest Thanks Believer for your comments! I appreciate it! I'm working hard so I can be like you!!!
I believe this not to be true. One because mohammed himself was fake and a charlot and 2 he didn't have a clear understanding of the torah and gospels. He only made them up to his own liking.
This "Well at least" statement is troublesome. Don't put words into people's mouths like that. At least makes it seem as if they have no other way out and just use this "cop out" method of reasoning. I'm not like that. I already told you I've been through your road before.
Rational reasoning is humanistic. Not from God. If you read the OT and the NT you can see that alot of the things Yaweh did were NOT rational. Always going back to help the Israelites, although they were against Him at times. Jesus as well, would heal the sick and eat with those who sinned against God. Although yes, one can have a personal relationship with their god [as the pagans did and still do up until this day- some people believe in their lucky charms and it helps them too], but that's a false security because you're putting your salvation in the hands of something that will not give you salvation and that's the major difference between the religions. Also, has your god ever talked to you? Has he ever lead you down certain paths?
Claiming and having are two different things. I have it and I haven't gone wrong yet. God loves all of His people regardless of what they are doing, however He will come to them one day to take them "home" and under His wing. It's up to that person whether or not they want to go to Him. I think there's a story in the bible that talked about a man and his dog on the roof during the flood. This guy was certain that God was going to save him. Three people passed him by asking him if he needed a ride, but he told them that "God will save me" the guy drowned and when he went to heaven he asked God why he wasn't saved. God told him that he sent not one but 3 people to save him but he refused the gift. I need not say no more.
Ok let me rephrase- I KNOW that the Bible is true. I KNOW Jesus is true too. I know that He loves me just like He loves you and everyone else and I know that He is saddened by people who are only looking for some type of physical proof and authenticity to His trueness, His Godliness and so on. Mohammed's stories are not worldy proof. They are just fabrications added on by mythical arabian stories as well. You can claim these are true? The miracles supposedly in the hadiths are not even in the koran since mohammed himself said that he cannot perform any miracles.
You expect people to believe that? the authenticity of mohammed's faith is the same as well and if you decide to leave him, you will surely die by your own people's hands.
And you haven't questioned, ridiculed the integretity of the bible? come one now. Stop trying to switch and bait here. Every single muslim I've come in contact with always plays this game. Blind faith, in a way is good because those are the meek that truly accept the word of God, unlike people who are always looking for some type of "proof" Proof seekers are the ones that usually get duped into the end because they can be fooled into believing that something is true when it's not [gob is a good example].
A few weeks ago I had to sign off a work assignment over the weekend to someone and I needed someone else to get the work to me before the end of the day. That person sent the assignment down to the main office without me knowing but I left a note for the next guy to do the work.
On Monday I heard that the guy didn't do it and I was getting blamed for not following up. Although I did leave the note, they couldn't find the note. I also produced paperwork that two other people saw the work and didn't pass it onto the weekend guy. None of them got into trouble, only me.
The question remains, where was that note? I left it for that guy. No one questioned him about it. Punch line is although the proof is there, no one had faith in me to believe that I would be so lazy as to NOT leave a note for the weekend guy to do the work. Hmm..maybe I should've forged a note and then they would've believed me.
If anyone's not sincere, it's you. You want us to read everything and read this and that, but have you even taken the time out to read the bible for yourself? All of these so called miracles are just shams and have been refuted time and time again. Show me something new and maybe I'll give it time. As far as fear is concerned, the only fear I have is turning my back on my beloved Jesus Christ, but since I know that will not happen, I have nothing to fear. Your psychological tactics will not work on me, sorry.
You're kidding, right?
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 65, Number 366:
Quote:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The Prophet said, 'When you eat, do not wipe your hands till you have licked it, or had it licked by somebody else."
Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 1, Number 0041:
Quote:
Narrated Khuzaymah ibn Thabit:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was asked about cleansing (
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 72, Number 833:
Quote:
Narrated Abu Talha :
The Prophet said, "Angels do not enter a house in which there is a dog or there are pictures."
Very miraculous indeed. LOL
r u sure about that? They may get killed since mohammed had people killed that were against him. Oh those darn infidels.
That's why the original hadiths and probably the original koran itself was destroyed as well. It didn't make that much sense. Just alot of jibberish. But of course it is important. You have someone that supposedly couldn't read, that means his information was given to someone else who was not a prophet. This person could've "added" things. Where is the authenticity now?
Quran 20:15
Quote:
Shakir:
Surely the hour is coming-- I am about to make it manifest-- so that every soul may be rewarded as it strives:
YusufAli:
"Verily the Hour is coming - My design is to keep it hidden - for every soul to receive its reward by the measure of its Endeavour.
Palmer:
‘Verily, the hour is coming, I almost make it appear, that every soul may be recompensed for its efforts.
Pickthal:
Lo! the Hour is surely coming. But I will to keep it hidden, that every soul may be rewarded for that which it striveth (to achieve).
hmmm....but then again he was a merchant. Very fishy if you ask me. It's very relevant. Using a lie such as not being able to write is a good way to sway people into believing that this book is truly "inspired" It's only logical thinking.
Oh but they sold it and mohammed bought them. why would he need to buy them? He can't read. Maybe he would get someone to read them for him.
Ok I'll read these at a later time, but I'm still not convinced. These works were written long after mohammed's death and anyone could conspire to lie about knowing mohammed and whomever. The quran itself is the same too. anyone could've said whatever and had it backed up by someone else. Lie on top of a lie on top of another lie. I don't remember which game came out first... Atari? Anyway others perfected it, but that doesn't mean that Atari [or which ever] was not the original pioneer of the video game revolution.
Anyone could come up with that thought. It's no big deal. Also I think there's one about the sperm coming from a man's chest cavity? Science already disproved that.
Yes and did you know that God did not approve of this? But then you were taught that it was right? and that's why mohammed wanted to show that you can have alot of wives but just 4 so you can be a little different, but then you could have all the slave girls you wanted. Nice harem.
No I'm not being mislead, it's you who are being mislead my brother and it's Believer who is trying to show you the way, but you are just not believing him. It's ok for you to stay within your religion, that is your right and your free will, but the perversion is incredible in islam and I fully reject it. Peace.
Thanks Believer for your comments! I appreciate it! I'm working hard so I can be like you!!!
humble_guest wrote:by all of the so-called evidence you gave to me makes you believe that it's true?
No that’s obviously not true, but what I do know is that the Qur’an has infinitely more evidence of its authenticity than does any other Scripture.
I believe this not to be true. One because mohammed himself was fake and a charlot and 2 he didn't have a clear understanding of the torah and gospels. He only made them up to his own liking.
humble_guest wrote:The difference between Christianity and other religions is because we have a close and personal relationship with our God almighty. We know what we have to do [whether or not we choose to listen] and how to go about our lives. The proof is in what our heavenly father shows to us through our daily relationship with Him. Of course the Bible helps us to undestand what is expected of us as good christians, but it is He who provides us with our daily needs. It's more spiritual than techinical and that's something alot of people of the flesh cannot understand. It's like I'm talking English to you when you can onlly understand French.
That’s not true shepherd, this is something that comes up every single time the Bible’s authenticity is questioned. All of a sudden people say “well at least I have a personal relationship with God”.
This "Well at least" statement is troublesome. Don't put words into people's mouths like that. At least makes it seem as if they have no other way out and just use this "cop out" method of reasoning. I'm not like that. I already told you I've been through your road before.
humble_guest wrote: Do you actually believe that Christians are the only one with this relationship? This monopolization is a form of arrogance. The biggest reason I believe in Islam is because God comforts me in my belief, it is rational and true and has worldly evidence to vouch for it.
Rational reasoning is humanistic. Not from God. If you read the OT and the NT you can see that alot of the things Yaweh did were NOT rational. Always going back to help the Israelites, although they were against Him at times. Jesus as well, would heal the sick and eat with those who sinned against God. Although yes, one can have a personal relationship with their god [as the pagans did and still do up until this day- some people believe in their lucky charms and it helps them too], but that's a false security because you're putting your salvation in the hands of something that will not give you salvation and that's the major difference between the religions. Also, has your god ever talked to you? Has he ever lead you down certain paths?
humble_guest wrote: Other faiths, when questioned about their authenticity can only say “well at least I know God loves me” or “free your mind” (to ignore the disparity). But God has to comfort you in your heart AND intellect, that’s the difference between Islam and other faiths. You don’t have to “veil” your mind from doubt and questions of authenticity and rely solely on the comfort you feel. In fact, EVERY faith claims to have this comfort, from Hinduism through to Bhuddism.
Claiming and having are two different things. I have it and I haven't gone wrong yet. God loves all of His people regardless of what they are doing, however He will come to them one day to take them "home" and under His wing. It's up to that person whether or not they want to go to Him. I think there's a story in the bible that talked about a man and his dog on the roof during the flood. This guy was certain that God was going to save him. Three people passed him by asking him if he needed a ride, but he told them that "God will save me" the guy drowned and when he went to heaven he asked God why he wasn't saved. God told him that he sent not one but 3 people to save him but he refused the gift. I need not say no more.
humble_guest wrote:I believe the entire bible to be true. I believe in Jesus Christ as my saviour. Jesus is and will always be the final messenger for me and He's proved it to me and I'm sure alot of other followers many times over and over again.
The only reason you believe Jesus to be the Savior is because you believe the Bible to be true. But you don’t know the Bible to be true, you only believe it to be so. How can you spend your life living by what you don’t both know AND believe to be true? What then distinguishes you from Joseph Smith, the authenticity of his scripture demands pure faith, since its story cannot stand on worldly proof at all.
Ok let me rephrase- I KNOW that the Bible is true.
I KNOW Jesus is true too. I know that He loves me just like He loves you and everyone else and I know that He is saddened by people who are only looking for some type of physical proof and authenticity to His trueness, His Godliness and so on. Mohammed's stories are not worldy proof. They are just fabrications added on by mythical arabian stories as well. You can claim these are true? The miracles supposedly in the hadiths are not even in the koran since mohammed himself said that he cannot perform any miracles.You expect people to believe that? the authenticity of mohammed's faith is the same as well and if you decide to leave him, you will surely die by your own people's hands.
humble_guest wrote:I don't need someone like Muhammed or Joseph Smith to tell me other wise because they are dellusional.
Well I won’t defend Joseph Smith because I see striking similarities between the demands of the Book of Mormon and those of the defenders of the Bible, blind faith. But I’ll tell you what I have noticed on this forum. Every Christian person has cursed or ridiculed the Qur’an and Muhammad (pbuh). I think one’s actions are a good indication of one’s internal condition and I know even by your beliefs Jesus (pbuh) did not curse other religions of the time, he didn’t need to.
And you haven't questioned, ridiculed the integretity of the bible? come one now. Stop trying to switch and bait here. Every single muslim I've come in contact with always plays this game. Blind faith, in a way is good because those are the meek that truly accept the word of God, unlike people who are always looking for some type of "proof" Proof seekers are the ones that usually get duped into the end because they can be fooled into believing that something is true when it's not [gob is a good example].
A few weeks ago I had to sign off a work assignment over the weekend to someone and I needed someone else to get the work to me before the end of the day. That person sent the assignment down to the main office without me knowing but I left a note for the next guy to do the work.
On Monday I heard that the guy didn't do it and I was getting blamed for not following up. Although I did leave the note, they couldn't find the note. I also produced paperwork that two other people saw the work and didn't pass it onto the weekend guy. None of them got into trouble, only me.
The question remains, where was that note? I left it for that guy. No one questioned him about it. Punch line is although the proof is there, no one had faith in me to believe that I would be so lazy as to NOT leave a note for the weekend guy to do the work. Hmm..maybe I should've forged a note and then they would've believed me.
humble_guest wrote:http://www.answering-islam.org.uk/Quran ... index.htmlForget it. I already read the hadiths and provided them to you. If you don't want to accept the truth sincerly that your prophet was a hoax, then that's on you, not me.
Just read it. Stop batting everything away. Obviously you’re not sincere when you’re afraid to read what might affect you.
If anyone's not sincere, it's you. You want us to read everything and read this and that, but have you even taken the time out to read the bible for yourself? All of these so called miracles are just shams and have been refuted time and time again. Show me something new and maybe I'll give it time. As far as fear is concerned, the only fear I have is turning my back on my beloved Jesus Christ, but since I know that will not happen, I have nothing to fear. Your psychological tactics will not work on me, sorry.
humble_guest wrote:Considering that not a single person could emulate the Qur’an in the literary peak of the area, it shouldn’t even matter to you that the Prophet was unlettered since even if he was the Qur’an is miraculous.
You're kidding, right?
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 65, Number 366:
Quote:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The Prophet said, 'When you eat, do not wipe your hands till you have licked it, or had it licked by somebody else."
Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 1, Number 0041:
Quote:
Narrated Khuzaymah ibn Thabit:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was asked about cleansing (
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 72, Number 833:
Quote:
Narrated Abu Talha :
The Prophet said, "Angels do not enter a house in which there is a dog or there are pictures."
Very miraculous indeed.
LOLhumble_guest wrote: However, even by your estimation, if the Prophet was just “playing” why then would he just take out a pen out of nowhere and start writing? First you make it out to be an elaborate scheme to make the Qur’an seem miraculous, then you claim that it was all messed up when he accidentally wrote something and everyone saw him. Don’t you think the people around him, especially the hypocrites and skeptics who were watching this would have made a bigger deal of it?
r u sure about that? They may get killed since mohammed had people killed that were against him. Oh those darn infidels.
humble_guest wrote:The fact still remains that he could read and write.
I’m glad that this is such a sticking point for you. At least it shows how intensely you realize that the Qur’an could not have been written by an unlettered man. But neither could it even be EMULATED by the literary scholars and poets of the time.
That's why the original hadiths and probably the original koran itself was destroyed as well. It didn't make that much sense. Just alot of jibberish. But of course it is important. You have someone that supposedly couldn't read, that means his information was given to someone else who was not a prophet. This person could've "added" things. Where is the authenticity now?
Quran 20:15
Quote:
Shakir:
Surely the hour is coming-- I am about to make it manifest-- so that every soul may be rewarded as it strives:
YusufAli:
"Verily the Hour is coming - My design is to keep it hidden - for every soul to receive its reward by the measure of its Endeavour.
Palmer:
‘Verily, the hour is coming, I almost make it appear, that every soul may be recompensed for its efforts.
Pickthal:
Lo! the Hour is surely coming. But I will to keep it hidden, that every soul may be rewarded for that which it striveth (to achieve).
hmmm....but then again he was a merchant. Very fishy if you ask me. It's very relevant. Using a lie such as not being able to write is a good way to sway people into believing that this book is truly "inspired" It's only logical thinking.
humble_guest wrote:Why would mohameed need to buy scriptures from people anyway if he got the direct revelation from god through the angel? That doesn't make sense.
What do you mean? That verse was a command to the Jews to not sell God’s word for a paltry gain, it does not refer to Muhammad (pbuh).
Oh but they sold it and mohammed bought them. why would he need to buy them? He can't read. Maybe he would get someone to read them for him.
humble_guest wrote:Here is some important background on what constitutes “hadith”
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/
Read this especially, it’s a good summary:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith ... ences.html
And here’s a rough explanation:
Ok I'll read these at a later time, but I'm still not convinced. These works were written long after mohammed's death and anyone could conspire to lie about knowing mohammed and whomever. The quran itself is the same too. anyone could've said whatever and had it backed up by someone else. Lie on top of a lie on top of another lie. I don't remember which game came out first... Atari? Anyway others perfected it, but that doesn't mean that Atari [or which ever] was not the original pioneer of the video game revolution.
humble_guest wrote:ANY layperson could tell that milk came from the breast. So what? There is no miracle in that.
But that’s not what the verse says. It was talking about how the mammary glands are nourished, how the milk itself is formed, not that it comes out of the breast which anyone can see in front of them. It was a question of HOW the milk is formed. Any lay person could not tell you how the milk is formed, especially not 1400 years ago. Also, this is just one of MANY scientific miracles.
Anyone could come up with that thought. It's no big deal. Also I think there's one about the sperm coming from a man's chest cavity? Science already disproved that.
humble_guest wrote:PH has nothing to do with a barrier. PH has to do with the basic of acidic nature of fluid such as water. water can either be an acid or a base.
Not all water has a pH of exactly 7. Water can be slightly acidic or basic depending on its molarity i.e. ~6.5 or ~7.5
Exactly and that's because of the mixing of the two different waters. And that was my point. Therefore, no miracle of barriers of water.humble_guest wrote:Check the Atlantic ocean next to the meditteranean sea water by the gibralter sil. There are no barriers, in fact there are mixtures of both salt water and fresh water by certain percentages.
The Mediterranean is connected to the GIGANTIC Atlantic Ocean. Didn’t you ever wonder why they have two distinct water properties?
that would probably have to deal with the type of enviroment. However the fact still remains that the waters mix.humble_guest wrote: If you have a plate full of one type of water, and pour a little of another type of water into its side, then measure the water. It’s a weighted average of their two properties, the solutions mix. This doesn’t happen with the rivers and oceans.
They do flow into each other, that means they do mix, but only to a certain degree. I think it has something to do with osmosis, but not full osmosis.humble_guest wrote:The point of the matter is that it's useless to even memorize a book of lies. That's my point. It doesn't matter to me if someone wants to memorize something. What's the point when the thing you're memorizing isn't even going to save you when the time comes? The corruption is the koran itself so the corruption has already been memorized.
You only think the Qur’an is corrupted because you base that belief on the Bible.
No I don't think I know it is a lie and yes the Bible plays a major part, however it's not the entire part. I haev an intellecutal mind too, you know.humble_guest wrote:The Qur’an is better preserved than the Bible, it was preserved for longer, it was written and recorded and memorized BEFORE its messenger disappeared. It contains miracles and prophecies to vouch for its authenticity. I don’t see how you are using a Scripture of weaker authenticity to claim that one of stronger authenticity is corrupted.
Many fairy tales can be perserved, there's nothing special about that. koran is one of them. If you're basing this as your sole aspect because of it's "authenticity" then I think you need to do more research on your beloved koran.humble_guest wrote:Most religions ask this because they know it's better "brainwashing" Love is a spiritual thing, it's not intellectual, it's purely spiritual and that's what our God is all about. Pure love.
Religion is COMPLETE belief.
I'm not so sure about that since in islam you guys are looking for proofs and authenticities.humble_guest wrote: God is Truth, there can be no doubt regarding His commands. I’ve told you this before, but the Bhuddists think they are much more spiritual than the Christians, in fact they tell you to completely block out the mind…why would someone ask a believer to block out their mind?
Actually by clearing one's mind of all thoughts is supposed to give you more concentration in the spiritual realm since most humans are more inclined to fleshly things.humble_guest wrote: Only when the Scripture does not offer certainty with regard to its divine nature. Whenever there’s no proof, people are asked to believe blindly. Anyway, even though the QUr’an brings with it so many proofs, people like yourself still don’t believe, so obviously there is a strong factor of belief as well.
What proofs? These are all based on the lies of mohammed. The only proof is that he duped alot of people, that's all. Believer and many of the people have given you proofs as well as I have [including the fallacy of the gob] and you don't believe neither because you are already brainwashed into believing this mohammed.humble_guest wrote:Well so far, to me, Islam is losing the test of 'proof' as well. I don't need proof from islam because I've already found it in Jesus Christ.
The Bhuddist and Hindu would applaud you for this, they argue the same way. They don’t need proof because they feel “comfort”. But when you think about it, EVERYONE feels comfort in what they believe when they block out their reasoning capacity.
The Hindu has many gods and they find comfort in them. I don't know that much about buddism, but to be honest, I would much rather have a buddist, hindu OR AETHIEST neighbor rather than a muslim. Why? they are too hostile and like to force religion down your throat. The buddist doesn't bother you, they have their belief and let them be. They have not perverted the word of God like muslims have.humble_guest wrote:but people like mohammed and islam fly in the face of God all the time because you cannot accept that someone loved you so much that He would give up His only begotten Son for you life of sin.
Not at all. You should be willing to believe EVERYTHING that God reveals, right or not?[/qoute]
Actually I have, but I do not accept islam in any way. I totally REJECT IT just like I reject the mormon church, Jehovah witness and anyone else that perverses the scriptures. That's the flaw that's in mohammed. He made a new doctirne and that's against the teachings of Jesus Christ.humble_guest wrote: If you know for sure you have the word of God, then there shouldn’t be a question of whether or not you should believe it. People don’t believe in the sacrifice of a “begotten” son not because it doesn’t make sense, but simply because there is no indication that God EVER commanded this. You didn’t wake up one morning and rationalize that God had sacrificed a son, you read this in the Bible. You base this entire belief on the Bible, so the logical question is, how do you know the Bible is the word of God?
Yes, just like you didn't get up and realize that mohammed was your last prophet, you read that in the koran. And then the other logical question is how do you NOT KNOW it is not the word of God? In order go gain knowledge you read, right? If you read the Bible you will see that this was already spoken about way before Jesus was even born. I know the bible is the Word because of what I've read, what history I've read, by coming to sites like this and going to other sties. Having my own close contact with God and His angels, coming in contact with other loving christians, other non-christians, travelling the world, so on and so forth. I don't need some iman to tell me what this is or what that is, I already know it. It's already been settled with me. I see it in other people. The truth is wonderful.humble_guest wrote: What signs does it bring to indicate this AND is there a Scripture with similar yet more evident signs?
Like I said, people fly in the face of God. Those who are lost are always looking for "proof" and God is giving it to you but yet they are still too blind to see. We play with God all the time. Question Him, look for proof, need this and that. He's too good to us. I know if I were a god, I would've wasted those who questioned me already. LOL I mean how many thousands of years do I need to show to you people about me already. For goodness sakes.humble_guest wrote:My point was that we were in a situation with no way out and all was about to be lost, but through prayer we made it through [don't know how to explain that].
That’s good man. Sincere prayer is always answered and I don’t doubt that you entreated what you would call “the Father” with the most sincere of prayers and that’s why you were saved by Him.
Hmmm..I'm not so sure about that. You're still muslim and I'm still praying for you to be like my brother Bushmaster.humble_guest wrote:Jesus also warned about those who are in sheep's clothing. I personally am not interested. I'm learning everyday about islam and how its effect on the people are devastating. How much of a brain washing cult it is and how mohammed used "religion" to get his way. He is one of the most evil people I've ever read about in history.
Bro do you know how ironic this statement is? Do you know who the people in sheep’s clothing are? They are the people who provide you INCORRECT information while claiming to be on your side and helping you defend the TRUTH!
I hope you're not talking about the jews herehumble_guest wrote: They defend falsity with falsity while claiming to be sincere worshippers. THESE are the wolves in sheep’s clothing because they are pretending to be your friends but they are only caging your heart. That’s why all you get is a constant bombardment of what Islam is NOT and your sources are damning you because they are not bringing authentic information to you.
I don't think so. I do happen to have an intellect in case you were wondering. I've been all over the muslims sites and non-muslim sites. I've been to exmuslims and faith freedom.I've even been to aethist sites. They all provide very good and detailed information although I don't agree with them sometimes, they are at least honest. I also have been to some hate sites as well and although I do think some of them are extreme, most of them are on the notch when it comes to islam.
I know about your prophet and believe me he's a backwards sharlot. I don't know or understand how any man [or woman as a matter of fact] can pay homage to such a monster. I'm sorry, but it's the truth. JESUS all the way for me, thanks.
Yes, islam has "some" good in it as far as trying to regulate the people since they are animals I gues [or were, whatever], but besides that, it's just a moral code like freemasory or whatever. Nothing else, just a regular cult.humble_guest wrote:A leader like mohammed is not someone I would ever want to follow to be in contact with god. Jesus is definately the one I would follow forever to be with my Father in heaven.
When you follow Muhammad (pbuh) you ARE following Jesus because there is not a doubt in my mind that they brought the same exact message from God.
Well isn't that blasphemy if I've ever heard it. LOL Let's see, they brought the same message from God. Ok I have a good one. Jesus said marry only one woman. Mohammed said 4. OK we have a problem. someone is lying here. I know you're going to say the Bible is corrupt, but I will tell you this, Mohammed was corrupt. And yes I know he married all these women before he got his revealation and that's why he was entitled to keep more than the usual muslim man, but give me a break. Jesus says forgive them for they know not what they do, yet mohammed cursed the jews and christians. Yes, they both came directly from god. OK!! LOL
Jesus says that a woman can be a glorious mother without giving birth, but yet adoption is forbidden in koran. Hmm....something fishy going on here. I could go on but this post is way too long already. LOL It's interesting though.humble_guest wrote:If you say that Jesus will come back, break the cross and throw a pig like me into hell because I didn't follow the laviscious life of mohammed, then so be it.
Bro don’t be like this. Think clearly and thoroughly. Muslims know that Jesus, Moses, Muhammad, all the way back down to Abraham and Adam taught submission to the One God. That didn’t mean they all followed the same rites as these were added and changed with time and the testaments. Jesus returns to symbolically break the cross to show that this was not what he ever taught nor was he ever commanded to teach it. He symbolically “kills the swine” to show that he was sent as a messenger to UPHOLD the Mosaic laws that forbade swine, not to abrogate them.
Oh really. I doubt that especially since there are other animals that are forbidden to be eaten such as the camel, the shell fish in the sea. why didn't he use that instead huh? Or did mohammed know about shellfish and what they were called? Just stop already, you're making me laugh too hard and it's already late.humble_guest wrote: And most importantly, the life of Muhammad was not lascivious, this is what you’ve been taught.
My gosh...I can read you know. I see it with my own eyes. I know this post is long, but would you like me to make it longer to show about mohammed boasting about his sexuality being that of 30 men? Give me a break.humble_guest wrote: You’ve grown to hate polygyny while it was rampant with the prophets of the OT.
Yes and did you know that God did not approve of this? But then you were taught that it was right? and that's why mohammed wanted to show that you can have alot of wives but just 4 so you can be a little different, but then you could have all the slave girls you wanted. Nice harem.
No I'm not being mislead, it's you who are being mislead my brother and it's Believer who is trying to show you the way, but you are just not believing him. It's ok for you to stay within your religion, that is your right and your free will, but the perversion is incredible in islam and I fully reject it. Peace.
Jesus is Love
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humble_guest
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The writers if the Gospels did not have enough information about Jesus's childhood, so that chapter is left pretty blank.
Agreed
Centuries after Jesus died, early Christians became very curious about what Jesus did as a child.
Agreed
This drive to know caused many people to contrive fables and myths to entertain the people's curiosity.
That's very likely. People contrived many things after Jesus' (pbuh) ascension.
And we get such things as the Infancy Gospels and Pseudo-Matthew, and…apocryphal writings surroidning the Prophets and various Bible stories.
This is true as well. I've used ellipses.
but I would certainly trust a document compiled a few decades after Jesus lived than documents written centuries after Jesus lived.
Authenticity heavily relies on the range of time a document is compiled after an event.
That's a good point. When we are looking at things that are NOT divine revelation, just human accounts, we definitely SHOULD factor in the proximity of the account to the event described. Nobody is arguing with that when we are dealing with human accounts. Now the important thing is this: if there were only the Gospels of the Bible and the other accounts you're talking about, then the evidence would be more with the four Gospels because of when they were written, depending on whether the other accounts had better transmission than the Gospels or not. However, weighing in on the credibility of the other accounts is the divinely revealed Qur'anic account. This shows that your other accounts could very well be written by Unitarian Christians, and are not just forgeries or myths.
Now Jesus didn't speak as a child or work little miracles as a child or the people of Nazarether, Jesus's hometown, would NOT have been surprised He was a wise and miraculous person.
But they were very surprised because Jesus was just like a normal Jewish child.
This is where I would disagree with you. If you decide to read the book I've suggested, it talks about several of Jesus' (pbuh) other miracles. For example, as a child Jesus (pbuh) knew more about the Mosaic laws than the Jewish high priests, which was part of the reason why he so threatened them.
Their very early Christian communities did believe that Jesus was the Lord that died for our sins (as Isaiah said) and ressurected, that was the Good News! That is what "gospel" means!
Many did believe that Jesus was their lord, but many also believed that Jesus (pbuh) was only the Messiah and Messenger of God. This is what was considered "Good News".
We English speaking people use the English word "apocryphal" to mean "not authentic".
Yes, but the English word does not have anglo roots. It has greek and latin roots, which is how the original meaning is derived. The Early Church fathers and Christians undoubtedly spoke Greek and Latin, not English.
And certainly making clay molds of birds and making them real, that is very pointless and silly. God did not and would not do that.
Imbibing life from whence there was no life is silly? God does what He wills, I'm surprised you would risk blasphemy to decide what God would or wouldn't do.
I stated a truth, and even Matthew list a bunch of prophecies that Jesus fulfilled, and many were not listed.
You put these prophecies together, and here is the story of Jesus as presented in the Gospels!!!
Now where does the Quran list OT or NT prophecies in support of the claims the Quran presents about Muhammed being the final prophet?
Yes, Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah because he IS the Messiah. But the OT and NT never say that no Messenger will come after Jesus (pbuh). The Qur'an is a miracle in itself, I wish you'd read more about it from the sources I gave you, and about the life of the Prophet Muhammad.
How can we interpret this???
We see the Son of Man being worshipped by the peoples and nations!
He has an everlasting kingdom!
When do you think Daniel 7:14 happened? Or are you basing your views on prophecies that haven't occurred yet?
What could this mean in regareds to Islam???
Here:
http://www.jesuswillreturn.com
Peace
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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humble_guest
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Also, has your god ever talked to you?
So you're suggesting that God communicated demands directly to you and reveals things to you which He does not reveal to the rest of mankind? I thought only Mormons believed that.
I have it and I haven't gone wrong yet. God loves all of His people regardless of what they are doing, however He will come to them one day to take them "home" and under His wing. It's up to that person whether or not they want to go to Him. I think there's a story in the bible that talked about a man and his dog on the roof during the flood. This guy was certain that God was going to save him. Three people passed him by asking him if he needed a ride, but he told them that "God will save me" the guy drowned and when he went to heaven he asked God why he wasn't saved. God told him that he sent not one but 3 people to save him but he refused the gift. I need not say no more.
Right, but this can be said about anyone from any faith. This could directly be reflected back to you, from me.
I know that He is saddened by people who are only looking for some type of physical proof and authenticity to His trueness, His Godliness and so on.
Oh please don't get me wrong. Nobody was ever convinced by sheer physical proof and authenticity about God or the will of God. These are just things that comfort the mind.
Religion proves its values when it solves people's problems. When they are tested in this life and they sincerely supplicate God and are helped. When they get the urge to worship God as an inner feeling, apart from any external proofs.
Blind faith, in a way is good because those are the meek that truly accept the word of God, unlike people who are always looking for some type of "proof" Proof seekers are the ones that usually get duped into the end because they can be fooled into believing that something is true when it's not [gob is a good example].
As I said before, even if someone were to know EVERYTHING about another faith and its authenticity, they could still disbelieve. You can't prove a faith to someone, but you CAN show them that it is not corrupted by human hands.
Actually, the only people who AREN'T duped are those that believe both in their hearts and minds. People ask you to accept things ONLY on blind faith when they have doubt or lack of evidence to support themselves, and God always sends signs and Messengers to mankind. Like I was saying above, you sometimes remind me of what the eastern religions say, because they don't claim to have divine scriptures they tell you to "shut out the mind and stop thinking". The end result? People believe in their "inner god" or many gods and so forth. And I don't believe that the GoB is the word of God, but certainly more reliable than the gospels.
If anyone's not sincere, it's you. You want us to read everything and read this and that, but have you even taken the time out to read the bible for yourself? All of these so called miracles are just shams and have been refuted time and time again. Show me something new and maybe I'll give it time. As far as fear is concerned, the only fear I have is turning my back on my beloved Jesus Christ, but since I know that will not happen, I have nothing to fear. Your psychological tactics will not work on me, sorry.
Sorry man, not only have I read the Bible, I've even taken bible lessons, and I can give you the email address of the person who taught me, if you don't believe that. If you are sincere, at least start with this site:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/
Once you know the Truth about the Qur'an, you will be interested to read it, and about its Messenger.
You're kidding, right?
Do you see why you need to read more?
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/
Bro, I hope you know that not all hadiths are of the same authenticity! There were a lot of disbelievers who purposely attributed sayings to the Prophet to ridicule him and divert the faiths of believers. They like yourself thought this amusing. So whenever you present a hadith, you also have to present it’s authenticity rating. This is based on whether it has a solid and large transmission of reliable persons going all the way back to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). THEN you have to check the biographies of each person to make sure they are reliable and don’t have a history of malice against Islam or people in general or even senility. THEN you have to note whether there are ever any broken links in the chain. Then you have to note how many chains have transmitted the same hadith. The science of hadith is too deep to go into, but I think the reason you find many hadiths amusing is exactly because many ARE frivolous and slanderous plagiarisms by the enemies of Islam. Do you understand this or should I expand more on the topic? Not all hadiths have the same weight, some we know were certainly words of the Prophet, and some are obviously plagiarism simply because of who transmitted them and how. This is where most apologetics get their hadiths and enjoy themselves, oblivious to the fact that Muslims regard much of the same hadiths as plagiarisms.
And here’s a rough explanation:
When scholars like Muslim and Bukhary were collecting the words and actions of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) they went around asking people what they knew.
When someone claimed to have known something, they had say what they knew, and say who told them, and then who told THEM, and who told THEM, all the way back to someone who was actually present when Muhammad (pbuh) said it. Now if someone can’t do that, if he says “Someone told me that the Prophet said this” but can’t name all the names back to the source, it’s not credible. Also, if someone says that so-and-so told me, and “so-and-so” is someone of questionable repute, the hadith is considered questionable. Remember that at the time there were many enemies of Islam who want to just spread slander. If someone was known to have been a hypocrite at the time, how reliable could his testimony have been? Anyway, so the more reliable people you had at each level in the chain of transmission, the more reliable was the hadith.
So not ALL the hadiths are untrue, they have variable integrities. We know which ones are true by the way they were transmitted and by WHOM they were transmitted. Sometimes senile men could’t remember where they had heard something or seen something, sometimes people couldn’t remember just one name in the transmission. These were all reasons to doubt the authenticity of a hadith. It’s a very meticulous matter to insure that slander and falsity didn’t creep into the words and life of the Prophet.
Oh but they sold it and mohammed bought them. why would he need to buy them? He can't read. Maybe he would get someone to read them for him.
Bro I told you that those verses don't even REFER to the Prophet, they refer to the Jews. You probably read what you just said in some apologetic discourse.
Also I think there's one about the sperm coming from a man's chest cavity?
See "hadiths" above.
Exactly and that's because of the mixing of the two different waters. And that was my point. Therefore, no miracle of barriers of water.
Please scroll back up and read what I wrote. E.g. the Mediteranean water could have a pH of 7.5 and the atlantic 6.5 and they would retain those properties and the huge atlantic would never average with the Mediteranean to bring it down to ~7 or below.
The Mediterranean is connected to the GIGANTIC Atlantic Ocean. Didn’t you ever wonder why they have two distinct water properties? If you have a plate full of one type of water, and pour a little of another type of water into its side, then measure the water. It’s a weighted average of their two properties, the solutions mix. This doesn’t happen with the rivers and oceans.
I'm not just a blind believer as you would think of me as.
Well yes, you're obviously intelligent. But unfortunately you don't apply the same critical thinking you do with regard to the Qur'an as you do with regard to the Bible. I still don't see how you think the Bible is more authentic as a text.
I'm not so sure about that since in islam you guys are looking for proofs and authenticities.
But you yourself prove that authenticity isn't enough, you still disbelieve. Guidance can only come from God and sincerely seeking Him and repenting to Him and supplicating Him. You are a living example of how there is not enough proof in the world to convince a disbeliever.
As for the Disbelievers, whether you warn them or not, it is all one for them; they do not believe. (Surah Al-Baqarah: 6)
Actually by clearing one's mind of all thoughts is supposed to give you more concentration in the spiritual realm since most humans are more inclined to fleshly things.
I agree. But that's AFTER you've established the correct conception of God. You can't tell a polytheists to clear their mind in worship of their idols if they first base this belief on questionable texts to begin with.
many of the people have given you proofs as well as I have [including the fallacy of the gob]
Like I said, the GoB is NOT divine revelation and has several fallacies. I don't go by it in any way except to say that it offers an account of the crucifixion that does not contradict the Qur'an the way the Gospels do.
I would much rather have a buddist, hindu OR AETHIEST neighbor rather than a muslim. Why? they are too hostile and like to force religion down your throat.
Oh come on. Do you consider me hostile? Do you feel I'm forcing religion down your throat. Look at my thread and compare who has used more derogatory, insulting, and sarcastic language.
That's the flaw that's in mohammed. He made a new doctirne and that's against the teachings of Jesus Christ.
You only think that Muhammad (pbuh) made a new doctrine because you don't believe that Jesus (pbuh) taught the same Divine Unity that Muhammad did, as did Moses. That's the only reason you find a contradiction. Please read the book I've suggested to get a clear understanding of what I'm talking about.
I hope you're not talking about the jews here
No I was talking about some of the pseudo-historians and apologetics you read. People who made you believe things like this:
I know about your prophet and believe me he's a backwards sharlot. I don't know or understand how any man [or woman as a matter of fact] can pay homage to such a monster. I'm sorry, but it's the truth. JESUS all the way for me, thanks.
Would you read a true account of the Prophet's life if I gave it to you? Or have you chosen to rest on your convictions?
Ok I have a good one. Jesus said marry only one woman. Mohammed said 4. OK we have a problem. someone is lying here. I know you're going to say the Bible is corrupt, but I will tell you this, Mohammed was corrupt. And yes I know he married all these women before he got his revealation and that's why he was entitled to keep more than the usual muslim man, but give me a break. Jesus says forgive them for they know not what they do, yet mohammed cursed the jews and christians. Yes, they both came directly from god.
When did Jesus (pbuh) say marry only one woman? Actually, in Islam marrying only one woman IS the norm and is most favored and suggested. In addition, how many OT prophets had more than one wife? On the contary Islam is the only religion to have regulated polygamy and set rules for it. Also, a man can't marry more than one wife unless his other wife agrees. That in itself is the most difficult criteria possible, how often do you think that happens.
Read this:
whoever wants to understand the ruling of doing something in Islam must know all the texts connected with it. Because as ordinary Muslims, you and I are not only responsible for obeying the Qur’anic verses and hadiths we are familiar with. We are responsible for obeying all of them, the whole shari‘a. And if we are not personally qualified to join between all of its texts—and we have heard Ahmad ibn Hanbal discuss how much knowledge this takes—we must follow someone who can, which is why Allah tells us, "Ask those who recall if you know not."
The size and nature of this knowledge necessitate that the non-specialist use adab or "proper respect" towards the scholars of fiqh when he finds a hadith, whether in Bukhari or elsewhere, that ostensibly contradicts the schools of fiqh. A non-scholar, for example, reading through Sahih al-Bukhari will find the hadith that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) bared a thigh on the ride back from Khaybar (Bukhari, 1.103–4). And he might imagine that the four madhhabs or "legal schools"—Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi‘i, and Hanbali—were mistaken in their judgment that the thigh is ‘awra or "nakedness that must be covered."
But in fact there are a number of other hadiths, all of them well authenticated (hasan) or rigorously authenticated (sahih) that prove that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) explicitly commanded various Sahaba to cover the thigh because it was nakedness. Hakim reports that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) saw Jarhad in the mosque wearing a mantle, and his thigh became uncovered, so the Prophet told him, "The thigh is part of one’s nakedness" (al-Mustadrak), of which Hakim said, "This is a hadith whose chain of transmission is rigorously authenticated (sahih)," which Imam Dhahabi confirmed (ibid.).
Imam al-Baghawi records the sahih hadith that "the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) passed by Ma‘mar, whose two thighs were exposed, and told him, ‘O Ma‘mar, cover your two thighs, for the two thighs are nakedness’" (Sharh al-sunna 9.21). And Ahmad ibn Hanbal records that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "When one of you marries [someone to] his servant or hired man, let him not look at his nakedness, for what is below his navel to his two knees is nakedness" (Ahmad, 2.187), a hadith with a well authenticated (hasan) chain of transmission. The mujtahid Imams of the four schools knew these hadiths, and joined between them and the Khaybar hadith in Bukhari by the methodological principle that: "An explicit command in words from the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) is given precedence over an action of his." Why?
Among other reasons, because certain laws of the shari‘a applied to the Prophet alone (Allah bless him and give him peace). Such as the fact that when he went into battle, he was not permitted to retreat, no matter how outnumbered. Or such as the obligatoriness for him alone of praying tahajjud or "night vigil prayer" after rising from sleep before dawn, which is merely sunna for the rest of us. Or such as the permissibility for him alone of not breaking his fast at night between fast-days. Or such as the permissibility for him alone of having more than four wives—the means through which Allah, in His wisdom, preserved for us the minutest details of the Prophet’s day-to-day sunna (Allah bless him and give him peace), which a larger number of wives would be far abler to observe and remember.
Because certain laws of the shari‘a applied to him alone, the scholars of ijtihad have established the principle that in many cases, when an act was done by the Prophet personally (Allah bless him and give him peace), such as bearing the thigh after Khaybar, and when he gave an explicit command to us to do something else, in this case, to cover the thigh because it is nakedness, then the command is adopted for us, and the act is considered to pertain to him alone (Allah bless him and give him peace).
Jesus says that a woman can be a glorious mother without giving birth, but yet adoption is forbidden in koran.
That's not even true, bro.
Oh really. I doubt that especially since there are other animals that are forbidden to be eaten such as the camel, the shell fish in the sea. why didn't he use that instead huh?
Man, look at yourself. Camel and shellfish aren't even forbidden. Look at how skewed your understanding of Islam is.
My gosh...I can read you know. I see it with my own eyes. I know this post is long, but would you like me to make it longer to show about mohammed boasting about his sexuality being that of 30 men?
Read above about hadiths and how they aren't all true. People spread as many lies about the Prophet then as they do now.
but then you could have all the slave girls you wanted.
Man, acquiring slaves is FORBIDDEN in Islam. This is exactly what I'm talking about when I tell you that you've been deceived by the disseminators of information, the wolves in sheep's clothing.
But then you were taught that it was right?
It is permissible, but not suggested. Actually the time it was really followed was when there were too many widows as many men had died in battle and there were not enough men in the community for women to marry.
but the perversion is incredible in islam and I fully reject it. Peace.
That's just not true, my friend. You're basing your entire belief on falsified hadith texts.
Peace
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
- Preacher
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- Location: South
Peace humble guest,
Okay, but here you are again conjecturing about Unitarians and stuff.
I have presented to you, humble, how very much realistic that the Infancy Gospels are a forgery.
You even seem to agree with me!
Sure Jesus was a smart kid, He knew the Word of God (Well, He WAS the Word!!!)
This is very much different that working tricks with birds and talking as a baby, and other weird things if you ever read the Infancy Gospels.
Also too, the Quran contains stories from two very different Infancy Gospels written centuries after Jesus lived, and the other centuries after that one!!!
They have two very different storied of Jesus's birth and life, very contradictory...and contradictory to the Gospels!
Again, I'd put my trust in the earlier 4 Gospels paying heed to flaky things in later writings.
The Good News is the passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the fact that He bore our sins on the cross, as Isiaah said, it was the Lord's Will.
Prophet Isaiah said:
Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
-Isaiah 53:10
Jesus Christ said:
He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
-Luke 24:44-45
They would have used a different word for "not authentic"
Rather baby Jesus was doing whatever he wanted, but I don't put my faith in later occuring stories like this.
Also nothing in the OT and NT said Godzilla wasn't going to come either.
You should realize that NO messenger comes after the Messiah!!!
The Messiah IS the Expected One!!!
No prophet supercedes the great Messiah, such a religion is very backwards and not sensible.
Seems to be an image after Judgement in that the peoples and nations are serving the Son of Man, and He recieved an everlasting kingdom. This has not come to pass yet, but it will soon.
I saw that video before, but I didn't see any pictures of Jesus.
In fact, I've never seen a picture of the Islamic Isa.
That's a good point. When we are looking at things that are NOT divine revelation, just human accounts, we definitely SHOULD factor in the proximity of the account to the event described. Nobody is arguing with that when we are dealing with human accounts. Now the important thing is this: if there were only the Gospels of the Bible and the other accounts you're talking about, then the evidence would be more with the four Gospels because of when they were written, depending on whether the other accounts had better transmission than the Gospels or not. However, weighing in on the credibility of the other accounts is the divinely revealed Qur'anic account. This shows that your other accounts could very well be written by Unitarian Christians, and are not just forgeries or myths.
Okay, but here you are again conjecturing about Unitarians and stuff.
I have presented to you, humble, how very much realistic that the Infancy Gospels are a forgery.
You even seem to agree with me!
This is where I would disagree with you. If you decide to read the book I've suggested, it talks about several of Jesus' (pbuh) other miracles. For example, as a child Jesus (pbuh) knew more about the Mosaic laws than the Jewish high priests, which was part of the reason why he so threatened them.
Sure Jesus was a smart kid, He knew the Word of God (Well, He WAS the Word!!!)
This is very much different that working tricks with birds and talking as a baby, and other weird things if you ever read the Infancy Gospels.
Also too, the Quran contains stories from two very different Infancy Gospels written centuries after Jesus lived, and the other centuries after that one!!!
They have two very different storied of Jesus's birth and life, very contradictory...and contradictory to the Gospels!
Again, I'd put my trust in the earlier 4 Gospels paying heed to flaky things in later writings.
Many did believe that Jesus was their lord, but many also believed that Jesus (pbuh) was only the Messiah and Messenger of God. This is what was considered "Good News".
The Good News is the passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the fact that He bore our sins on the cross, as Isiaah said, it was the Lord's Will.
Prophet Isaiah said:
Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
-Isaiah 53:10
Jesus Christ said:
He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
-Luke 24:44-45
Yes, but the English word does not have anglo roots. It has greek and latin roots, which is how the original meaning is derived. The Early Church fathers and Christians undoubtedly spoke Greek and Latin, not English.
They would have used a different word for "not authentic"
Imbibing life from whence there was no life is silly? God does what He wills, I'm surprised you would risk blasphemy to decide what God would or wouldn't do.
Rather baby Jesus was doing whatever he wanted, but I don't put my faith in later occuring stories like this.
Yes, Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah because he IS the Messiah. But the OT and NT never say that no Messenger will come after Jesus (pbuh). The Qur'an is a miracle in itself, I wish you'd read more about it from the sources I gave you, and about the life of the Prophet Muhammad.
Also nothing in the OT and NT said Godzilla wasn't going to come either.
You should realize that NO messenger comes after the Messiah!!!
The Messiah IS the Expected One!!!
No prophet supercedes the great Messiah, such a religion is very backwards and not sensible.
When do you think Daniel 7:14 happened? Or are you basing your views on prophecies that haven't occurred yet?
Seems to be an image after Judgement in that the peoples and nations are serving the Son of Man, and He recieved an everlasting kingdom. This has not come to pass yet, but it will soon.
I saw that video before, but I didn't see any pictures of Jesus.
In fact, I've never seen a picture of the Islamic Isa.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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humble_guest
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Okay, but here you are again conjecturing about Unitarians and stuff.
I have presented to you, humble, how very much realistic that the Infancy Gospels are a forgery.
You even seem to agree with me!
The only reason you think I'm conjecturing is because you've never exerted yourself to read about Early Unitarians, it's like you want to shut that part of history out.
Also, re-read my post, I wasn't agreeing with you that the Infancy Gospels are forgeries, I was just telling you that if the Infancy Gospels and the Four Main Gospels were the only texts in existence, the four main ones would have points to their advantage simply because they were written earlier.
This is very much different that working tricks with birds and talking as a baby, and other weird things if you ever read the Infancy Gospels.
I think part of the problem is that the Infancy Gospels could very well contain other myths, and you are allowing this to veil the accurate portions. However, where they match the Qu'ran they aren't myths.
They have two very different storied of Jesus's birth and life, very contradictory...and contradictory to the Gospels!
Again, I'd put my trust in the earlier 4 Gospels paying heed to flaky things in later writings.
If there are two contradictory accounts in the infancy gospels, then obviously one of them is wrong. The only account I go by is the one given in the Qur'an.
They would have used a different word for "not authentic"
I'll give the Early Church fathers the benefit of the doubt that they chose their words carefully.
Rather baby Jesus was doing whatever he wanted, but I don't put my faith in later occuring stories like this.
And if this late story is all you had, you probably shouldn't. But you have the revelation of the Qur'an AND one of the accounts of these infancy Gospels that vouch for that version of the story.
You should realize that NO messenger comes after the Messiah!!!
The Messiah IS the Expected One!!!
No prophet supercedes the great Messiah, such a religion is very backwards and not sensible.
This paragraph is exactly what is meant by "conjecture". In religious matters, you should only believe what God reveals to you, when you start adding your own rules and regulations, you are conjecturing. God never said that no Messenger will come after the Messiah. And besides, no messenger will come after Jesus (pbuh) returns as the Messiah to vanquish the anti-Christ and return peace to the land.
Seems to be an image after Judgement in that the peoples and nations are serving the Son of Man, and He recieved an everlasting kingdom. This has not come to pass yet, but it will soon.
Which is why I think it's dangerous for you to base your convictions on a prophecy that is yet to occur. If you value the prophecies of the OT and NT, then know that Qur'an already confirms that Jesus (pbuh) is the Messiah.
I saw that video before, but I didn't see any pictures of Jesus.
In fact, I've never seen a picture of the Islamic Isa.
That's because in Islam it is forbidden to draw pictures or depictions of the Prophets, just so people won't associate their images in worship.
Think about how many people now are thinking about Jim Caviezel when they are praying. That's a dangerous association.
Peace bro
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Liberate
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Actually, in your entire paragraph there’s only one thing that’s true. And that is that the only thing that was made without prophetic advice is the actual order of the arrangement of the Qur’an. The order of the Chapters is not the chronology of when they were revealed though the times and places of their revelation is recorded. But the order of the Surahs actually has no bearing on the Qur’an.
According to Sahih(authentic) bukhari 6 201
(Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari: who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an." Abu Bakr added, "I said to 'Umar, 'How can I do something which Allah's Apostle has not done?' 'Umar said (to me), 'By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.' So 'Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as 'Umar." (Zaid bin Thabit added:) Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. me). "You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur'an. I said to both of them, "How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar. So I started locating Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else, (and they were):-- "Verily there has come to you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty He (Muhammad) is ardently anxious over you (to be rightly guided)" (9.128) The manuscript on which the Quran was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with 'Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, Umar's daughter.
If you still want to claim the prophet oversaw the chronology or indeed the final collected koran you are going to have to dismiss this sahih (authentic) hadith as a fabrication.
The reading ways of Quran dictionary: (moa'agim alqera'at alqura'nia):
This extrract is from an Arabic book written by Islamic scholars and published by
Kuwait University in 8 volumes, first edition 1982 (Arabic) the authors:
Dr. Abdal'al Salem Makrem
Dr. Ahmed Mokhtar Omar
They are Arabic language professors in Kuwait Univ.
The publisher is: Zat Alsalasel - Kuwait
Introduction:
There is a lot of Quran books [massahif] written till the day of Othman
Ibn Afaan, he burn the other books and he keep one authorized copy.
For example there is:
Quran according to Ali bin abi talib
According to Ibn Mass'oud
According to Aobi bin ka'ab
That does not mean that these people WRITE the Quran; this does mean that they are a references for how the Quran could be read.
There is 7 ways to read the Quran (according to the verse about the 7
letters in the Quran [alssib' ailmithani]) + 3 other ways "completed"
(mokimila) + 4 additional, they call it abnormal [shaza].
The 7 ways readers and their disciple:
Nafaa': Qalon + Warsh
Ibn Kathir: Albizi + Qonbil
Abi amro: Aldori + Alsosi
Ibn Amer: Ibn Aban + Ibn Thkwan
Assemm: Abo Biker + Hafas
Alkessa'i: Allith + Aldori
Hamza: Albizaz + Abo Isa Alsirfi
The 3 ways readers and there disciple:
Abo Ji'faar: Ibn Wardan + Ibn Jmaz
Yaccob: Rois + Roh
Khalif: Almrozi + Iddres
The 4 ways readers and their disciple:
Ibn Mohisn: Albizi + Ibn Shinboz
Alyazidi: Soliman Ibn Alhakam + Ahmed Bin Farah
Alhassan Albassry: Abo Na'im Albalkhi + Aldori
Ala'mash: Amotodi + Alshinbzi Alshttaoi
Today's Quran which all we use is according to Aobi bin ka'ab.
No I haven’t. The word of God ALWAYS supercedes the word of man, even if the word of man is closer to the event. Only when you have two conflicting accounts BETWEEN the words of men, should you look to proximity. Also the allegation that the “fables” are incorporated verbatim is preposterous if you mean there were written in the same style and language.
I suggest you read what you said about recording the words of the prophet as he speaks them in his presence that was the basis of your whole argument since the disciples didn't do this for Jesus aaah they must have corrupted what He said years later, by implication THIS WAS NOT DONE for mohammed but this hadith proves Mohammed never saw the final koran, he didn't oversee anything done to it, your whole premise fails unless you want to cut the hand that feeds you and claim this sahih (authentic) hadith is a lie and what islamic imams, and scholars claim is second only to the koran as inspired is also a lie you will be flying in the face of 90%+ of islam your stance that the koran was written as Mohammed said it and collected it into a book is a blatant fabrication, unless of course you have the original animal skin, barks of wood and leaves Zaid got the koran from.
I hate to break it to you, but just because someone “proclaims” their authenticity comes directly from Mohammad doesn’t make it authentic! See my above post about hadith and verifying authenticity, bro.
Lets just say I am curious as to your religious sect within islam to dismiss Al Tabari as a fabrication ( I don't need to tell you that the sunnah is mandatory on all muslims which al tabari's 30 volume work ranks highly as a part of), I suggest you read what http://www.sunnah.org has to say about Al Tabari and his 30 volumes of islamic history right to the companions of the prophet before you dismiss all he has to say as fabrication, in light of the koran it explains where the verses come from the environment surrounding their creation it is an exposé on islam from a notable muslim historian, all his material was collected before the hadiths without Tabari, Ishaq and the hadiths you are so quick to dismiss islam has no skeleton it would be like being a christian without any of the gospels, in fact the hadiths obtain material from him, and many suspect he used the same hadith science you refer to obtain his material. Think about it why would someone before any hadith had been collected an acknowledged muslim historian scholar and eminated to the point that he could be trusted to issue out laws (mujtahid mutlaq) by all authors and scholars of the tabaqat much like Aisha go out of his way to tell lies about islam?
You believe God protected His word by allowing pagan arabs only to have the true message of His word? this same pagan arabs that worshipped the stars, moon and stones suddenly had the true religon from God just hidden and waiting to be revealed by Mohammed, there is a fundamental logical fallacy here where do we distinguish between what is the true religion of God and blatant paganism being practiced by the pagan sabaens?. If the pagan sabeans practiced salat, hajj poilgrimages and circumnavigating the ka'ba how come Jesus didn't do it or Moses or Abraham? if this is the religion that follows the previous religions of God why is it the pagans only are practicing this ritual?
First of all, the “pagan arabs” weren’t the only ones to have the true message of His Word. God’s Message has been preserved from Adam through to Muhammad in terms of the Divine Unity. The star worshipping pagan Arabs REVERTED to Islam, they didn’t claim to have had Islam revealed to them. In addition, the reason you see the pagans having practiced a form of the pilgrimage and circumnavigation is this (from another post):
The rites of Hajj were first performed by Abraham, Hajar, and Ishmael. The Prophet Muhammad’s (pbuh) Hajj was a reenactment and observation of these rites.
The Hajj was performed by the projeny of Ismael and the monotheists of Arabia until they were borrowed by the idolaters to worship their false gods. It is the latter practices which the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) corrected in order to return Muslims to the rites observed by Abraham.
Abraham -------- Ishmael and descendents -------- Pagans incorporate rituals ------------Muhammad dispels pagan rituals and reenacts Abrahamatic Hajj.
The reason you’re confused is that you’re only look back to the pagans and assuming that their rites were borrowed when in fact it was the pagans who borrowed the rites from the descendents of Ishmael and Abraham.
The difference is for Whom the rituals are performed. Aside from disputing that fasting was observed in the same manner as Muslims, I remind you that the pagans did their rites for idols and pluralistic gods, not the One God Almighty. It’s like the difference between someone who prays to a human and the person who prays to God.
So in fact the pagans had incorporated what they had seen the descendents of Ishmael do, except they were using a garbled version of them to worship their false gods.
In addition, we know that the Message given to Moses was distinct from the one given to Muhammad i.e. Islam with all its rites was not revealed to Moses. However, theologically Moses and all the Messengers and Prophets received and transmitted the same message of Divine Unity and submission to God. The only difference were the details and demands of some rites (for example the Jews were directed to worship towards Jerusalem). Jesus (pbuh) was sent as a Messenger to return the children of Israel to the way of Moses and the laws revealed to him, as they had strayed therefrom.
First off I would like you to produce some archelogical or historical proof of any kind whatsoever that Abraham was circumnavigating the ka'ba other than your koran. Do you realise what you are saying suppose the priests of baal baptised their disciples in animal blood, and John the baptist baptises his followers in water they must have come from the same source?? John must have been following the original message of the priests of baal, and the unity in baal, they must be preaching from the same pedestal. Something you fail to seperate montotheism is nothing new to islam, zoroaster was practicing monotheism, even baal worship can be seen as a form of monotheism, don't you think the devil wants to be worshipped and he alone wants to be worshipped, how does someone differentiate between the devil's form of monotheism and the real God's form of monotheism unless we check the messages and see which one has held true for all time.
Why on earth would God change His mind as much as the islamic god, first off allah says pray towards jerusalem then he changes his mind to mecca, this flies in the face of an Omnisicient God who reverberates in the two previous revelations "God changes not".
What you say about Jesus bringing the jews back to the religion of Moses am afraid is not remotely true, Jesus was a jew He used the same scripture as any other jew, He was not here to bring back or take back the messages to some phantom religious practice He was here to fulfill what was already written about Him.
For one thing, nobody said that the two previous revelations were corrupted simultaneously. In fact, one of the reasons the Jews did not all recognize Jesus to be the Messiah is because their texts had changed with regard to the descriptions of the Messiah. They had a different set of criteria by that time.
Thats is the basis of the muslims apologists argument the world over the jews corrupted their scriptures and the christians corrupted the messages of Jesus, two revelations consecutively corrupted, it was thought for a great while by muslim apologists that they simultaenously corrupted their scriptures to spite the muslims, until the discovery at Qumrah.
The onus on proof of corruption of the jewish scripture to the point that they had a different set of criteria by the time Jesus arrived is solely on you (I would love to see some evidence of this), no historian or scholar worth his salt has this view after the discovery of the scrolls at Qumrah.
In addition, when you ask why God did not protect his previous revelations it’s like asking “why did God even have to send more than one Messenger?” That’s exactly like questioning God’s plan to begin with and saying “why not one messenger, one single revelation, preserved through time”.
We know, however, the Message of God regarding His Divine Unity HAS been preserved since Adam while the rites of faith differed between the peoples of different messengers and prophets though they shared a central core. Islam as a final testament and its rites was revealed not to the Arabs but to mankind. The Qur’an states several times that Muhammad (pbuh) and the Qur’an were revelations to mankind, not any given people or time.
Focus on the question I asked, focus on the arabic word Muhaimin what it means, and what your suggestion that an omniscient God would be so incompetent as to allow both of His revelations to get corrupted.
What exactly were the rites of faith of the jews that Mohammed had chosen new rites of faith for the muslim?
Let me tell me you what the bible says about the people behind the creation of islam, it says the children of the bond woman will be a stumbling block to the children of the promise, it is a very long problem stretches all the way back to Ishmael and Isaac, the children of the bond woman want the heritage of the promise just like Esau wanted his stolen birth right, they want it so badly they have imitated a religion to combat the children of the promise. The bible preaches that the devil is an imitator bear that in mind.
Would an all knowing an omniscient God produce sura 2:226 and sura 9:5, surely an all knowing and omniscient God would not abrogate/change/alter his revelations repeatedly over a 22 year period, the old testament spanned 2000+ years there is no abrogation in it, the new testament spanned 70-120 years there is no abrogation in it, yet a 22 year span of alledged revelation has numerous; some schools of islamic jurispundence say 150+ abrogations something is obviously wrong here can this be the same God?. If you want to argue that I am taking it out of context of the historical period it relates to then how can this be the final REVELATION FOR ALL MANKIND if it only refers to local events in the arabian peninsula.
Just observe how you test divine revelation by asking “would a God REALLY do this?” Demoting the commandments of God to the rationality of man. Once you determine what is the word of God, there is no logical alternative to submission thereto.
Thats just it the EVIDENCE FROM ISLAM specifically say that Mohammed was not around to forsee the collation of the koran, the manner in which Mohammed obtained his revelations are dubious to begin with a fabrication at best and demonic at worst, no previous prophet obtained revelation by making camel sounds, hearing bells, and making bee buzzing sounds (and yes I do have the hadiths to back this up).
Just how do we test what is from God?, previous revelations says God is unchanging along comes islam with this brand new law of abrogation that occurred several times over a 22 year period, the rational man must ask himself would an Omniscient and Eternal God abrogate anything He had said within a 22 year period while in the previous 2 revelations there isn't one incidence of abrogation? have you you honestly asked yourself this?
Also, I’m not going to even begin to argue how your comments on abrogation are out of context. The problem is even more fundamental than that, I’m not sure you know what abrogation entails:
And I can show you hadiths that say so so and so verse was revealed but was ABROGATED by so so and so verse.
"I swear by the moon, And the night when it departs, And the daybreak when it shines; Surely it (hell) is one of the gravest (misfortunes)" (Koran 74:32)
The previous revelations says we should not swear now along comes islam and allah/mohammed/first person decides it is ok to swear by of all things the moon, night and sun?. Simple logic tells me if the two previous revelations are progressive and along comes a third so called revelation that contradicts both the first and second revelation the third reelation is in error.
I’m so glad you pointed this out. It’s relieving because it shows me that you don’t in fact know much about the Qur’an. First of all, the speaker in that verse is God.
You are relieved because it shows you I don't know much about the quran???
I am well aware that verse is alledgedly from allah, I put allah/mohammed/first person because I wanted the reader to see it from a logical stand point because if you read the koran it is interlaced with such language contradictions where mohammed/allah is supposed to recite or say in first person, third person, singular, plural example:
sura 7:3 “Follow the Revelation given to you from your Lord and follow not as protectors other than Him [third person]. Little do you remember My [first person, singular] warning. How many towns have We [plural] destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them. No cry did they utter but: ‘We were wrong-doers.’”
The Prophecies of the Qur’an
Would you care to show us the prophecies in the KORAN how it relates to all mankind as opposed to the previous revelations let us discuss it.
, apart from the scientific miracles and the prophecies in hadith:
Are you one of those that are prepared to defend the scientific miracle of flies carrying an antidote on one wing and a poison on the other and dipping them in your soup will cure the disease?
In what way are islam and judaism close, why does fundamentalist islam hate judaism so much? have you thought for one second if you are serving the same God or if God is on your side, why have all the islamic countries attacking Israel over the years have not driven Israel into the sea yet? Does God favour one side over the other? or are both sides serving two different gods?
.Don’t mix religion with politics
See my above post about the children of the bond woman, your hadiths say the last day won't come until jews are killed and trees say oh servant of allah there is a jew behind me come and kill him, where is the line drawn in islam between politics and religion?
What does circumnavigating the ka'ba, salat and the hajj pilgrimage have to do with Judaism?
One should then ask how much of today’s Judaism has to do with the ways of Abraham and Moses.
Would you care to elaborate how the ways of Abraham, Moses differs from the current jews?
If you want to claim they are monotheism, well that goes for zoroastrains too are you close to zoroastrians, or didn't Mohammed just call them fire worshippers?
The difference is that Judaism is acknowledged to have come from a named Messenger with a named revelation.
And I have heard numerous times from muslim apologists all messengers come with books did Abraham have a book? how about Adam?
how can the authors of 66 scriptural books spanning over 2,000 years not contradict each other
Are you being serious here? The gospels are not self-contradictory?
By all means show us the contradictions chances are it has been dealt with numerous times over.
.In addition, women are not and should not be forced to wear hijab
Interesting you mention "should not" because we both know in several islamic countries women are to be flogged if they are not wearing the hijab, I assume you must be in the west to have such a liberal islamic viewpoint?
Christianity was about removing legalism from communication with God now islam is fighting tooth and nail to get legalism into religion.
I think you misunderstand the purpose of legalism. Living by the word of God is the ultimate expression of submission to God, it is the ultimate trust in revelation. Most people think it suffices to believe but are not able or willing to completely submit themselves to God’s commandments because they deem it too difficult for them or because they love the world too much. However, the best belief is inward and outward expression thereof, and this is by emulating the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as the benchmark for humanity in his words and actions and lifestyle.
I do not misunderstand the purpose of legalism, there is a fine line between legalism and obsessive compulsive disorders, which is what judaism had become to the jews before Jesus's arrival a huge weight around your neck, the best analogy I can give you is food, you eat the food it gives you sustenance to keep going, you carry the food long enough it accumulates to the point that it becomes a heavy load, that is what christianity is about spirituality eating and living by the eaten food, the word of God, not doing acts in odd numbers.
We believe the Qur’an is from God for several reasons beyond the eloquence and miracles. Look at its Messenger (pbuh) and its pristine transmission as well.
I have looked at the messenger and I am still amazed people would blindly follow an individual whose whole lifestyle is dubious purely on humanistic levels alone, someone who sanctions rape, looting, slavery, and taboo sexual conduct even for his own era alledgedly blessed by his god cannot possibly be following the same God he contradicts in the two previous revelations.
Notice how in Bukhari the angel apparently told him to read, but in muslim and tabari it said recite, was someone trying to remove away the accusation of why an omniscient God would ask an illiterate man to read?
The words for “recite” and “read” are the same word in Arabic, actually. So what you’re look at are the differences in translation.
Let us use some logic into this, someone says to you "recite" you say "what shall I recite?", the being then suddenly attacks you for no reason, he didn't even give you a scroll to recite from ( and we know you are very good at reciting we have 116 chapters of your recitations) yet the being attacks you for giving him the only answer you can "what shall I recite?", is this kind of being from God, would God suddenly just manhandle you for no reason like this?
The alternative scenario "read" "I cannot read", so an all knowing and omniscient God would suddenly ask a man who doesn't know how to read to read? and then physically manhandle him for not being able to read?
You have not even bothered to address the serious allegation of lying in the conflicting accounts in bukhari, tabari and muslim, these are the same people that wrote your koran.
where do you get the evidence that the jews were profiting from their way of life? you mean since they no longer followed the true religion in your opinion they were profiting from their way of life?
Why do you think Jesus was such a threat to the Jewish elite? Because he was sent with knowledge of the true Testament from God which the Jews had not preserved. It threatened their monopoly of interpretation and their secured way of life and not unlikely insulted them that Jesus (pbuh) would know more than them even as a youth.
First off a few posts above you say there is no evidence of corruption, now you say the jews didn't preserve their true testament from God, isn't this corruption?
It is obvious like many muslims you are unaware that the only reason Jesus was a threat to judaism was because He claimed to be one with the Father, which they saw as blasphemy which strangely enough is what islam believes too, so why purport to believe in someone that contradicts your sole message?.
could not the alternative scenario for sura 2:41 be that the jews were selling scriptures to Mohammed while Mohammed wanted it for free so he could incorporate it into his new religion? hence the sura was revealed
You do realize of course that the meanings of the verses, the exegeses, were explained by the Messenger. That’s where most exegeses comes from and that’s the point of Messengers coming with Scripture instead of the Scripture just materializing. The reason your statement is incoherent is because it’s asking whether there is an alternative explanation to the one given by the Messenger of the Qur’an itself.
My main point was not answered you said the jews were profiting from changing their scriptures, the sura says "take not a mean price for my scriptures" this implies buying and selling, money exchange, I asked you how were the jews profiting by changing their scriptures that is what you said they were doing, are you going to claim Mohammed had no access to jewish scriptures? why is this sura there what does it mean by not taking a mean price in exchange for my scriptures, think about it logically, where did Mohammed get all his biblical stories from? did he pay for it? why did he ask Zaid to study the book of the people of the book?
Please elaborate how the jews were profiting from denying their scriptures.
viola a sura would be revealed to justify it
Have you ever noticed how every such instance brought an exception to a general rule for the sake of leniancy or broke a misconception which the pagan Arabs had?
So the misconception of the pagan arabs, the early muslims and indeed most of the world in this day and age felt it was taboo to marry your son's wife, but Mohammed was the one to gain sexually from this and justified it
Mohammed was also to gain by taking 5% of booty regardless of wether it was the sacred month of rahab
Explain how this is leniency, to whom? what kind of a messenger from God is this that his god takes every occasion to bless him with sexual exploits?
I hope you realise the majority of imans in the sunni school of jurispundence believe in the hadiths, a great deal of islam would call you an apostate for picking and choosing which part of islam you want to believe in, and I hope you also realise the people who wrote the hadiths are the same people who wrote the koran, so if they incorporated lies into the hadiths how about the koran?
Absolutely not, please read my above posts and links about the hadiths and how they are NOT all the same authenticity and were NOT all transmitted by the same people, especially not the same as those who transmitted the Qur’an.
If you want to fly in the face of the majortiy of islam to assuage your conscience over it's internal contradictions that is up to you, your view in not believing parts of your hadith will put you at odds with the majority of islam, giving me a link that supports your minority view doesn't help you the majority of islam believes in the parts you chose to omit.
the gospel of barnabas when it contradicts your holy books but since it denies the diety of Jesus it must be true
Did you even read what I wrote about the G of B? I didn’t even GIVE that rationale, go scroll back up to read the about the significance of the G of B.
I read what you wrote, how you gave the pros and cons but in reality you have already made up your mind, I have noticed it through most of your arguments you start off with the premise of a rational stand point, how we should believe a messenger's message is the truth if his followers have written it down in his presence and he has checked it and the chain of narration is authenticated, nice sound bite, but your koran fails in this you are going on the premise that your koran has passed your test when it has in fact failed it, in other words you are ready to bite the hands that feeds you to get one up on the opposition, typical tactic of muslim apologists like Ahmed Deedat and others that hold up the gospel of barnabas.
they have always said I will ask an iman or someone who is more knowledgeable, any blasphemy against the prophet is punishable by death, apostasy is punishable by death after a 3 day waiting grace, these are practiced by many an islamic country your liberal words and attitude am afraid is not the reality of islam in the majority of the world.
Well one should always ask someone with more knowledge:
But you are prepared to dismiss Al Tabari and Bukhari hadiths as fabrication even though they are closer to the conception of islam and respected scholars than you.
And your three following statements after that are just incorrect.
I didn't make them up I obtained them from imams from those countries, ofcourse you can always claim they don't understand or they are reading the hadiths wrong.
The Shafi´ites, Hanbalites and Malikites say: The verdict for the female apostate is the same as for the male. She must be called on to return to Islam for three days, prior to her death, for an evil-doer may have confused her understanding; thus the possibility exists for
her being released from her confusion.
Offering the apostate a time limit for repentance has been approved. According to a tradition related by Daruqutni, quoting from Djabir b. Abdillah, the Prophet offered Islam to a woman named Ummu Rumman who had previously apostatised. Furthermore, the Prophet said, "It is good if she repents.
If she does not, she is to be killed, since by apostasy she should be treated like a woman who has fought against Muslims, being taken captive in a holy war (jihad); thus it is lawful to kill her with the sword. Moreover, her guilt is far more abominable than women who are taken captive in a holy war, since she has become a Muslim."
The Prophet -- the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him -- said, "He who changes his religion must be killed"; this holds true both for men and women. The apostasy of a man calls for putting him to death. It is unanimously agreed upon that apostasy is a horrible crime deserving a horrible punishment. The apostasy of a woman is no less horrible. Therefore, it too deserves a corresponding punishment: death
I also suggest you read "The punishment for apostasy in islam" written by a muslim 'Abdurrahmani'l-Djaziri’ that can be read for free at the following link:
http://www.light-of-life.com/eng/ilaw/
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humble_guest
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If you still want to claim the prophet oversaw the chronology or indeed the final collected koran you are going to have to dismiss this sahih (authentic) hadith as a fabrication.
But I explicitly told you that the chronology and order of the chapters of the Qur'an is irrelevant, and that's what the hadith is referring to. The chapters of the Qur'an were never recited in a particular order during the life of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and that's what Zaid was hesitant about doing.
Seriously bro, I can't stress how important it is for you to read this:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/
Also, I'm not so sure you understand what a "variant reading" of the Qur'an is. There isn't more than one version of the text of the Qur'an, the variant readings deal with vowel pronunciations which were present and commented on even by the Prophet (pbuh).
Please read this so you can be sure of what a "variant reading" means:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Qiraat/
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... green.html
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... /hafs.html
I suggest you read what you said about recording the words of the prophet as he speaks them in his presence that was the basis of your whole argument since the disciples didn't do this for Jesus aaah they must have corrupted what He said years later, by implication THIS WAS NOT DONE for mohammed but this hadith proves Mohammed never saw the final koran, he didn't oversee anything done to it
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/
Also, you should read about how the Qur'an was memorized completely AND recorded during the life of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). The only thing that was done after his death was the arrangement of the order of the text.
Here's a simple account:
http://www.iad.org/Quran/recording.html
http://www.answering-christianity.com/q ... y.html#Top
your whole premise fails unless you want to cut the hand that feeds you and claim this sahih (authentic) hadith is a lie and what islamic imams, and scholars claim is second only to the koran as inspired is also a lie you will be flying in the face of 90%+ of islam your stance that the koran was written as Mohammed said it and collected it into a book is a blatant fabrication, unless of course you have the original animal skin, barks of wood and leaves Zaid got the koran from.
First of all, please understand what the hadith is saying. Then read the above sites which contain equally authentic hadiths regarding how in fact the Prophet (pbuh) DID oversee the transcription of the Qur'an and its memorization.
and many suspect he used the same hadith science you refer to obtain his material. Think about it why would someone before any hadith had been collected an acknowledged muslim historian scholar and eminated to the point that he could be trusted to issue out laws (mujtahid mutlaq) by all authors and scholars of the tabaqat much like Aisha go out of his way to tell lies about islam?
Bro this is one major misconception. Just because one finds something in Al Tabari or Sahih Bukhary or Muslim doesn't mean they can issue fatwas with it. There are hundreds of thousands of hadiths, and the four main sunni schools of thought use them but still have debates over their classifications. You might want to read this:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/masud/ISLA ... abstlk.htm
Do you realise what you are saying suppose the priests of baal baptised their disciples in animal blood, and John the baptist baptises his followers in water they must have come from the same source??
Actually that's exactly what I'm NOT saying. This is what Believer constantly says as he just likes to find similarities in accounts and rites and link them. What I'm saying is don't be like him and exclude the third possibility which is that similarities in rites could be due to the fact that they are linked by a central message, and not that WHENEVER you find a similarity that they are linked by a central message.
John must have been following the original message of the priests of baal, and the unity in baal, they must be preaching from the same pedestal. Something you fail to seperate montotheism is nothing new to islam, zoroaster was practicing monotheism, even baal worship can be seen as a form of monotheism, don't you think the devil wants to be worshipped and he alone wants to be worshipped, how does someone differentiate between the devil's form of monotheism and the real God's form of monotheism unless we check the messages and see which one has held true for all time.
Bro no you're starting to contradict yourself. If anything, in your above example, we're talking about the possibility that "priests of baal" themselves based their erroneous beliefs on the true message of a previous Prophet of God and NOT that John was copying them and that they were at the beginning of the chain. The problem is you're not looking farther back, you're stopping at Zoroaster or deviant forms of monotheism instead of considering that the original Message of monotheism and its form were of the Divine Unity of God.
Why on earth would God change His mind as much as the islamic god, first off allah says pray towards jerusalem then he changes his mind to mecca, this flies in the face of an Omnisicient God who reverberates in the two previous revelations "God changes not".
This is a key point. God changes not. This is absolutely true. God's central message to worship Him alone has never changed. However, the rites associated with worship have varied as they were ordained for different times. For example, consanguineal relations and incest were forbidden after the revelation to Moses. However, it was permitted for example when the offspring of Adam and Eve were procreating. Also, the Mosaic Laws were different from the rites that Abraham or Noah and their peoples would have practiced; the later wouldn't be held accountable for what was revealed to Moses (pbuh) but the central messages were the same.
I think the key point you're missing is that God Almighty is the One Who determines right and wrong, and only God can change His own commands, and that there can never be a contradiction in such a change.
What you say about Jesus bringing the jews back to the religion of Moses am afraid is not remotely true, Jesus was a jew He used the same scripture as any other jew, He was not here to bring back or take back the messages to some phantom religious practice He was here to fulfill what was already written about Him.
I suggest you read the book I recommended at the beginning of this thread. One of Jesus (pbuh) missions was the return the Jews to the Mosaic Laws as they had been revealed to Moses, which had since changed by the time Jesus (pbuh) was born. The changes were part of the reason why many Jews could not even recognize Jesus (pbuh) to be the foretold Messiah as the criteria had been distorted.
The onus on proof of corruption of the jewish scripture to the point that they had a different set of criteria by the time Jesus arrived is solely on you (I would love to see some evidence of this), no historian or scholar worth his salt has this view after the discovery of the scrolls at Qumrah.
The scriptures were obviously not simultaneously corrupted. If you want an in-depth account, read the book above. One of the major reasons why the Jewish High Priests wanted Jesus (pbuh) dead was because he had exposed this corruption and threatened their ways of life as sole interpreters of the texts.
Focus on the question I asked, focus on the arabic word Muhaimin what it means, and what your suggestion that an omniscient God would be so incompetent as to allow both of His revelations to get corrupted.
I wouldn't be so rash as to dismiss the Divine Plan in this way. Also, the central message of Divine Unity was never lost, even when the Scriptures were distorted. Just look at how the Unitarian Christians carried it through up until the revelation of the Qur'an, and afterwards embraced Islam.
Let me tell me you what the bible says about the people behind the creation of islam, it says the children of the bond woman will be a stumbling block to the children of the promise, it is a very long problem stretches all the way back to Ishmael and Isaac, the children of the bond woman want the heritage of the promise just like Esau wanted his stolen birth right, they want it so badly they have imitated a religion to combat the children of the promise. The bible preaches that the devil is an imitator bear that in mind.
Yes, the devil is an imitator, but you're thinking from the perspective that Islam is imitating the Jews and Christians and ignoring the statement that the similarities are due to the fact that they were all revealed by the same God. Also, by the children of the bond woman you must mean the Arabs or the Arabized Israelites. But Islam is not a religion for the Arabs alone.
the manner in which Mohammed obtained his revelations are dubious to begin with a fabrication at best and demonic at worst, no previous prophet obtained revelation by making camel sounds, hearing bells, and making bee buzzing sounds (and yes I do have the hadiths to back this up).
I hope you realize that hadiths are only as good as their authenticity. There were people like yourself who were just as eager to misrepresent Islam at the time of the Prophet (pbuh) and spread similar slander hoping to mislead Muslims. For your own sake don't base your perception of Islam on weak or fabricated hadiths. Go research their authenticities for yourself if you are sincere.
previous revelations says God is unchanging along comes islam with this brand new law of abrogation that occurred several times over a 22 year period, the rational man must ask himself would an Omniscient and Eternal God abrogate anything He had said within a 22 year period while in the previous 2 revelations there isn't one incidence of abrogation? have you you honestly asked yourself this?
For one thing, abrogation by God Himself isn't at all a point of contention. It's much better than non-Prophetic abrogations which we saw in Judaism and Christianity after the lives of Moses (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh). In addition, one of the very miracles of the Qur'an is its consistency even when it was revealed after such a wide period. Seriously think about the significance of how the Qur'an was revealed:
http://www.islamanswers.net/Quran/stages.htm
http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_libra ... h1S4s8.htm
And I can show you hadiths that say so so and so verse was revealed but was ABROGATED by so so and so verse.
Yes of course, man. Abrogations during the time of the Prophet (pbuh) aren't something secret or anything. Islamic jurisprudence is built around the details of abrogation so it shouldn't overwhelm you or anything. Here's a short explanation on abrogations:
There are three forms of abrogation that occurred during the life of Muhammad (PBUH): abrogation of transcription with retained ruling, abrogation of ruling with retained transcription, and abrogation of both. The latter form was to nullify a decree as the foundations of Islam were laid and as for the rationalization, God knows best. The second was a way to remind Muslims of the mercy they had been shown by Allah. The first form is justified by a divine easement or harshening of prior obligations: for example the requirement to pray fifty times a day being abrogated to five, or the prohibition of alcohol at or before prayer being abrogated to its complete prohibition. Such abrogations were made by the Prophet (pbuh) and cited on the authority of both Muslim and Bukhari.
You are relieved because it shows you I don't know much about the quran???
What I meant was that you were purporting to know much about the Qur'an, but from your statements it became clear that you had a garbled sense of what you had read apologetics claim, but hadn't really read any rebuttals or evaluated the claims for yourself.
I am well aware that verse is alledgedly from allah
Not only is it FROM God, it is God speaking those words in that particular passage. Often God commands Muhammad (pbuh) to say things in the Qur'an.
if you read the koran it is interlaced with such language contradictions where mohammed/allah is supposed to recite or say in first person, third person, singular, plural example:
You should read this:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... inson.html
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... ifaat.html
Would you care to show us the prophecies in the KORAN how it relates to all mankind as opposed to the previous revelations let us discuss it.
Can you expand on this? What do you mean here?
Are you one of those that are prepared to defend the scientific miracle of flies carrying an antidote on one wing and a poison on the other and dipping them in your soup will cure the disease?
I'm familiar with this hadith. How much do you know about what is contained in the wing pouches of flies. You should look into that.
See my above post about the children of the bond woman, your hadiths say the last day won't come until jews are killed and trees say oh servant of allah there is a jew behind me come and kill him, where is the line drawn in islam between politics and religion?
Actually, that hadith is a prophecy and not a command. You have to consider this in the context of who will follow the anti-Christ to fight against Jesus (pbuh).
Would you care to elaborate how the ways of Abraham, Moses differs from the current jews?
The details are as lost as the true teachings of Jesus (pbuh) were it not for the revelation of the Qur'an.
And I have heard numerous times from muslim apologists all messengers come with books did Abraham have a book? how about Adam?
Actually the only books we know of are the Torah revealed to Moses (pbuh) the Injil revealed to Jesus (pbuh) [which is not known to have been in written form but is from where Jesus (pbuh) was taught and preached], the Zabur revealed to David (pbuh) and the Qur'an revealed to Muhammad (pbuh). That is not to say that Abraham and Adam (pbuh) did not follow the same messages.
By all means show us the contradictions chances are it has been dealt with numerous times over.
I'm not going to turn my thread into a link spamming of the lack of authenticity of the Bible and its textual contradictions, the internet is rife with that, but I would warn against the false comfort of thinking that since it has been "dealt with" numerous times over that it has been dealt with comprehensively or accurately. Besides, one need only compare the Qur'an to the Bible to measure the striking differences in authenticity and transmission.
Interesting you mention "should not" because we both know in several islamic countries women are to be flogged if they are not wearing the hijab, I assume you must be in the west to have such a liberal islamic viewpoint?
Man, first of all there is no such thing currently in the world called an "Islamic country" or should even be considered "an Islamic country" in terms of governance. I don’t consider any country ruling by Islamic laws or principles. And women obviously shouldn't be flogged for not wearing the head scarf, it doesn't take a detective to figure that out. I love how you take as evidence the actions of a country as to how the message of Islam IS or SHOULD BE implemented.
you eat the food it gives you sustenance to keep going, you carry the food long enough it accumulates to the point that it becomes a heavy load, that is what christianity is about spirituality eating and living by the eaten food, the word of God, not doing acts in odd numbers.
Islam, then, is about spirituality AND obeying the commands of God, submitting to God inwardly and outwardly. That doesn't mean that you can just follow rules or become fixated with them when the fundamental principles of faith are neglected.
Also, Jesus (pbuh) never abrogated the Mosaic Laws, he came to correct them and live by them. Many times arrogant people or people who think they are "more religious" than others neglect their worship and rites claiming that God has excused them from them.
I have looked at the messenger and I am still amazed people would blindly follow an individual whose whole lifestyle is dubious purely on humanistic levels alone, someone who sanctions rape, looting, slavery, and taboo sexual conduct even for his own era alledgedly blessed by his god cannot possibly be following the same God he contradicts in the two previous revelations.
And so long as you base your beliefs on questionable hadiths and the writings of colonialists who intended to besmear religion, you'll always be misguided.
Let us use some logic into this, someone says to you "recite" you say "what shall I recite?", the being then suddenly attacks you for no reason, he didn't even give you a scroll to recite from ( and we know you are very good at reciting we have 116 chapters of your recitations) yet the being attacks you for giving him the only answer you can "what shall I recite?", is this kind of being from God, would God suddenly just manhandle you for no reason like this?
The alternative scenario "read" "I cannot read", so an all knowing and omniscient God would suddenly ask a man who doesn't know how to read to read?
You have not even bothered to address the serious allegation of lying in the conflicting accounts in bukhari, tabari and muslim, these are the same people that wrote your koran.
Sorry bro, but you don't have an accurate account of how the Qur'an was first revealed. Nowhere does the text say that Gabriel attacked the Prophet or anything like that, but rather, that he pressed against him:
http://www.arabnews.com/?supname=prophe ... =11&part=5
It is obvious like many muslims you are unaware that the only reason Jesus was a threat to judaism was because He claimed to be one with the Father, which they saw as blasphemy which strangely enough is what islam believes too, so why purport to believe in someone that contradicts your sole message?.
Think critically from the perspective of the Jewish Elite at the time. If the Messiah and Messenger had come to correct their ways and reveal how the scriptures had not been preserved, would the Elite want him dead and state that the reason was because he was the Messenger who had revealed the truth about the Mosaic Laws and religion revealed by God, or would they rather say that a man came claiming to be God, and that he performed magic, and was blasphemous, and so on. Think about that.
Please elaborate how the jews were profiting from denying their scriptures.
An explanation that can be carried over to the point when the Jewish High Priests did not want to change their ways even after Jesus (pbuh) had arrived with the Message:
Question:
Please explain the following Qur'anic verse:
"...nor sell my revelations for a trifling price...." (2:41)
Answer:
It basically warns against ignoring the verses of the Almighty for the petty reason of love of this world. In other words, the Qur'an is telling us that when the Almighty demands from us sacrifice for the sake of religion, like spending wealth in his way, or accepting the opinion of someone whom we otherwise don't like, we have to, indeed, sacrifice our wealth or pride. Those who don't respond to the Almighty's call, are, as if, selling the Almighty's verses and purchasing petty worldly gains in exchange. The Jews, who are the direct addressees of this verse, were especially guilty of this crime, when they refused to accept prophet Muhammad (pbuh)as the messenger of Allah. And this for the petty reason that they did not want to accept a prophet from Bani Isma'il, who they thought was an inferior race to theirs.
are you going to claim Mohammed had no access to jewish scriptures? why is this sura there what does it mean by not taking a mean price in exchange for my scriptures, think about it logically, where did Mohammed get all his biblical stories from? did he pay for it? why did he ask Zaid to study the book of the people of the book?
Spend as long a time as necessary. You keep asking questions that are answered in the links. What's the point of asking if you're not going to read the answers? Is your point simply to filibuster the thread with a deluge of questions? Here:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/
So the misconception of the pagan arabs, the early muslims and indeed most of the world in this day and age felt it was taboo to marry your son's wife, but Mohammed was the one to gain sexually from this and justified it
Mohammed was also to gain by taking 5% of booty regardless of wether it was the sacred month of rahab
Explain how this is leniency, to whom? what kind of a messenger from God is this that his god takes every occasion to bless him with sexual exploits?
Here's something you should read:
whoever wants to understand the ruling of doing something in Islam must know all the texts connected with it. Because as ordinary Muslims, you and I are not only responsible for obeying the Qur’anic verses and hadiths we are familiar with. We are responsible for obeying all of them, the whole shari‘a. And if we are not personally qualified to join between all of its texts—and we have heard Ahmad ibn Hanbal discuss how much knowledge this takes—we must follow someone who can, which is why Allah tells us, "Ask those who recall if you know not."
The size and nature of this knowledge necessitate that the non-specialist use adab or "proper respect" towards the scholars of fiqh when he finds a hadith, whether in Bukhari or elsewhere, that ostensibly contradicts the schools of fiqh. A non-scholar, for example, reading through Sahih al-Bukhari will find the hadith that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) bared a thigh on the ride back from Khaybar (Bukhari, 1.103–4). And he might imagine that the four madhhabs or "legal schools"—Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi‘i, and Hanbali—were mistaken in their judgment that the thigh is ‘awra or "nakedness that must be covered."
But in fact there are a number of other hadiths, all of them well authenticated (hasan) or rigorously authenticated (sahih) that prove that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) explicitly commanded various Sahaba to cover the thigh because it was nakedness. Hakim reports that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) saw Jarhad in the mosque wearing a mantle, and his thigh became uncovered, so the Prophet told him, "The thigh is part of one’s nakedness" (al-Mustadrak), of which Hakim said, "This is a hadith whose chain of transmission is rigorously authenticated (sahih)," which Imam Dhahabi confirmed (ibid.).
Imam al-Baghawi records the sahih hadith that "the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) passed by Ma‘mar, whose two thighs were exposed, and told him, ‘O Ma‘mar, cover your two thighs, for the two thighs are nakedness’" (Sharh al-sunna 9.21). And Ahmad ibn Hanbal records that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "When one of you marries [someone to] his servant or hired man, let him not look at his nakedness, for what is below his navel to his two knees is nakedness" (Ahmad, 2.187), a hadith with a well authenticated (hasan) chain of transmission. The mujtahid Imams of the four schools knew these hadiths, and joined between them and the Khaybar hadith in Bukhari by the methodological principle that: "An explicit command in words from the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) is given precedence over an action of his." Why?
Among other reasons, because certain laws of the shari‘a applied to the Prophet alone (Allah bless him and give him peace). Such as the fact that when he went into battle, he was not permitted to retreat, no matter how outnumbered. Or such as the obligatoriness for him alone of praying tahajjud or "night vigil prayer" after rising from sleep before dawn, which is merely sunna for the rest of us. Or such as the permissibility for him alone of not breaking his fast at night between fast-days. Or such as the permissibility for him alone of having more than four wives—the means through which Allah, in His wisdom, preserved for us the minutest details of the Prophet’s day-to-day sunna (Allah bless him and give him peace), which a larger number of wives would be far abler to observe and remember.
Because certain laws of the shari‘a applied to him alone, the scholars of ijtihad have established the principle that in many cases, when an act was done by the Prophet personally (Allah bless him and give him peace), such as bearing the thigh after Khaybar, and when he gave an explicit command to us to do something else, in this case, to cover the thigh because it is nakedness, then the command is adopted for us, and the act is considered to pertain to him alone (Allah bless him and give him peace).
and
http://www.ymofmd.com/books/prophethood ... _intro.htm
Also, you're the only one sexualizing the stories. In addition, if you're claiming that the Prophet was advantaged by Islam, the Prophet didn't NEED Islam to legitimize his marriages, since pagan Arabia didn't even think twice about fornication what would be the point about going through the observances of marriage? Most importantly, you should accurately read about the details of that marriage:
http://www.islamic-paths.org/Home/Engli ... ter_07.htm
If you want to fly in the face of the majortiy of islam to assuage your conscience over it's internal contradictions that is up to you, your view in not believing parts of your hadith will put you at odds with the majority of islam, giving me a link that supports your minority view doesn't help you the majority of islam believes in the parts you chose to omit.
I know it's earth shattering for you, but varying levels of authenticity of hadith is not a minority view, it is a view held by ALL Muslims. It's unreal how little you want this to be true. Basically, it means that everything you're basing your allegations against the Prophet (pbuh) and Islam lose credibility. Which means you have to reevaluate what you know and don't know about Islam.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/
how we should believe a messenger's message is the truth if his followers have written it down in his presence and he has checked it and the chain of narration is authenticated, nice sound bite, but your koran fails in this you are going on the premise that your koran has passed your test when it has in fact failed it, in other words you are ready to bite the hands that feeds you to get one up on the opposition
Sorry bro, I know it's devastating for you, but you're simply refusing to accept the facts on how the Qur'an was transmitted. Scroll back up and read the links. You're so impressed by that hadith when you don't even know what it means and haven't read others on the subject.
But you are prepared to dismiss Al Tabari and Bukhari hadiths as fabrication even though they are closer to the conception of islam and respected scholars than you.
I didn't dismiss all Al Tabari and Bukhari hadiths. Notice how you had to scramble to extremes and put words in my mouth. If you read the links I provided, they explain HOW a hadith is classified. Not EVERY hadith you see is as authentic as the other though hundreds of thousands were recorded.
I didn't make them up I obtained them from imams from those countries, ofcourse you can always claim they don't understand or they are reading the hadiths wrong.
You do, of course, realize that anyone can issue a fatwa or religious opinion if they wanted. I'm not even denying that apostates were killed, so read this:
http://www.understanding-islam.com/rela ... on&qid=286
Peace bro,
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
- Preacher
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 03:42 am
- Location: South
Peace humble guest,
What we're talking about here has nothing to do with Unitarians.
Alot of Trinitarians and Unitarians believed ine Infancy Gospels were authoritative.
Well, there were 100's of different books around by the 3rd century.
One must take heed which of these books is true and which are false.
This was the difficulty the church fathers had when compiling the Bible.
They had to choose between old books people weren't even paying attantion to, and new fashion books with all the latest stories.
The Infany Gospels were one of these "new fashion" books, too flaky and not written as an honest attempt to tell about Christ's early life, but as entertainment!!! That's all it was! A book written for entertainment!!!
The Infancy Gospel stories in the Quran are some of the most irrational unreal stories found in the Infancy Gospels!!!!
What does this tell you????
The Quran which does contain storied from both books!
This Quran also displays total misunderstanding of Christian doctrine and the mission of Christ, and the prophets...much of what the Quran contains is derived from apocryphal writings!!!
Face it, your book is not the Word of God, but the word of human beings.
If you like what people say over what God truly says, then follow that road.
I will tell you sir that Islam does not verify or build on the pure and perfect teachings of Jesus Christ...so it is not from God at all.
It doesn't work this way! Jesus spared an adulteress and Muhammed kills them, and kills people!!
Your prophet acts against Christ and His teachings, and that is solid proof that He is not a prophet of the True God!
Islam is not a religion from the Living God.
How can you dare say that Muhammed is a prophet of God???
He is NOTHING like Jesus Christ, and he failed to live up to the teachings of Christ.
No prophet is from God when he acts against what a previous prophet of God teaches without a valid reason.
I'm only telling you what is REAL.
It is not a reality that a servant supercedes his King,
it is not realistic that a human prophet supercedes the Messiah, the Great King!!! Jesus even said He was the heavenly King!!!!
Jesus left us the Holy Spirit as His Counselor.
Isaiah 40:13
Who has understood the spirit of the LORD, or instructed him as his counselor?
Then how would you interpret what is said in Daniel 7:13-14?
And does the Quran confirm that Jesus is will be worshipped by the nations and people and recieve and everlasting Kingdom???
Or that Jesus sits at the right hand of the Almighty as Lord?
What's wrong with relfecting on the Prophets before prayer?
Yeah, Caviezel with alot of make-up and a big beard!
...not this handsome actor.
Man, you know whenever people think of Jesus Christ, or Isa, an image of a young man with a beard and smile shows up in their mind...that is with everyone.
The only reason you think I'm conjecturing is because you've never exerted yourself to read about Early Unitarians, it's like you want to shut that part of history out.
And if this late story is all you had, you probably shouldn't. But you have the revelation of the Qur'an AND one of the accounts of these infancy Gospels that vouch for that version of the story.
What we're talking about here has nothing to do with Unitarians.
Alot of Trinitarians and Unitarians believed ine Infancy Gospels were authoritative.
Also, re-read my post, I wasn't agreeing with you that the Infancy Gospels are forgeries, I was just telling you that if the Infancy Gospels and the Four Main Gospels were the only texts in existence, the four main ones would have points to their advantage simply because they were written earlier.
Well, there were 100's of different books around by the 3rd century.
One must take heed which of these books is true and which are false.
This was the difficulty the church fathers had when compiling the Bible.
They had to choose between old books people weren't even paying attantion to, and new fashion books with all the latest stories.
The Infany Gospels were one of these "new fashion" books, too flaky and not written as an honest attempt to tell about Christ's early life, but as entertainment!!! That's all it was! A book written for entertainment!!!
I think part of the problem is that the Infancy Gospels could very well contain other myths, and you are allowing this to veil the accurate portions. However, where they match the Qu'ran they aren't myths.
The Infancy Gospel stories in the Quran are some of the most irrational unreal stories found in the Infancy Gospels!!!!
What does this tell you????
If there are two contradictory accounts in the infancy gospels, then obviously one of them is wrong. The only account I go by is the one given in the Qur'an.
The Quran which does contain storied from both books!
This Quran also displays total misunderstanding of Christian doctrine and the mission of Christ, and the prophets...much of what the Quran contains is derived from apocryphal writings!!!
Face it, your book is not the Word of God, but the word of human beings.
If you like what people say over what God truly says, then follow that road.
I will tell you sir that Islam does not verify or build on the pure and perfect teachings of Jesus Christ...so it is not from God at all.
It doesn't work this way! Jesus spared an adulteress and Muhammed kills them, and kills people!!
Your prophet acts against Christ and His teachings, and that is solid proof that He is not a prophet of the True God!
Islam is not a religion from the Living God.
How can you dare say that Muhammed is a prophet of God???
He is NOTHING like Jesus Christ, and he failed to live up to the teachings of Christ.
No prophet is from God when he acts against what a previous prophet of God teaches without a valid reason.
This paragraph is exactly what is meant by "conjecture". In religious matters, you should only believe what God reveals to you, when you start adding your own rules and regulations, you are conjecturing. God never said that no Messenger will come after the Messiah. And besides, no messenger will come after Jesus (pbuh) returns as the Messiah to vanquish the anti-Christ and return peace to the land.
I'm only telling you what is REAL.
It is not a reality that a servant supercedes his King,
it is not realistic that a human prophet supercedes the Messiah, the Great King!!! Jesus even said He was the heavenly King!!!!
Jesus left us the Holy Spirit as His Counselor.
Isaiah 40:13
Who has understood the spirit of the LORD, or instructed him as his counselor?
Which is why I think it's dangerous for you to base your convictions on a prophecy that is yet to occur. If you value the prophecies of the OT and NT, then know that Qur'an already confirms that Jesus (pbuh) is the Messiah.
Then how would you interpret what is said in Daniel 7:13-14?
And does the Quran confirm that Jesus is will be worshipped by the nations and people and recieve and everlasting Kingdom???
Or that Jesus sits at the right hand of the Almighty as Lord?
That's because in Islam it is forbidden to draw pictures or depictions of the Prophets, just so people won't associate their images in worship.
What's wrong with relfecting on the Prophets before prayer?
Think about how many people now are thinking about Jim Caviezel when they are praying. That's a dangerous association.
Yeah, Caviezel with alot of make-up and a big beard!
...not this handsome actor.
Man, you know whenever people think of Jesus Christ, or Isa, an image of a young man with a beard and smile shows up in their mind...that is with everyone.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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Almonte
- Assitant Deacon
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:41 pm
- Location: yemen
Peace all
Here we now see the differences between the later writen Gospel of John
mostly compared to the earlier written Gospels;
2KI 2:11 Elijah went up to heaven.
JN 3:13 Only the Son of Man (Jesus) has ever ascended to heaven.
IS 44:24 God created heaven and earth alone.
JN 1:1-3 Jesus took part in creation
IS 53:9 Usually taken to be a prophecy re: Jesus, mentions burial with others.
JN 19:38-42 Jesus was buried by himself.
MT 3:16, MK 1:10 It was Jesus who saw the Spirit descending.
JN 1:32 It was John who saw the Spirit descending.
MT 4:1-11, MK 1:12-13 Immediately following his Baptism, Jesus spent forty days in the wilderness resisting temptation by the Devil.
JN 2:1-11 Three days after the Baptism, Jesus was at the wedding in Cana.
MT 10:34, LK 12:49-53 Jesus has come to bring a sword, fire, and division--not peace.
JN 16:33 Jesus says: "In me you have peace."
MT 11:7-15, 17:12-13 Jesus says that John the Baptist was a prophet, and more.
JN 1:21 John himself says that he is not a prophet, nor is he Elijah.
MT 12:39, MK 8:12, LK 11:29 Jesus says that he will give no "sign."
JN 3:2, 20:30, Jesus proceeds to give many such "signs."
MT 13:34, MK 4:34 Jesus addresses the crowds only in parables, so that they would not fully understand. He explains the meaning only to his disciples.
JN 1:1 - 21:25 (Throughout the book of John, unlike the other Gospels, Jesus addresses the crowds in a very straightforward manner. He does not employ parables.)
MT 21:2-6, MK 11:2-7, LK 19:30-35 The disciples follow Jesus instructions and bring him the animal (or animals, in the case of MT).
JN 12:14 Jesus finds the animal himself.
MT 25:34 Heaven was prepared before the Ascension of Jesus.
JN 14:2-3 It was prepared after the Ascension of Jesus.
MT 26:7, MK 14:3, LK 7:37 An unnamed woman does the anointing.
JN 12:3 It is Mary.
MT 26:14-25, MK 14:10-11, LK 22:3-23 Judas made his bargain with the chief priests before the meal.
JN 13:21-30 After the meal.
JN 13:21-30 Jesus forecasts his betrayal prior to the communion portion of the supper.
MT 28:1 The first visitors to the tomb were Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (two).
MK 16:1 Both of the above plus Salome (three).
LK 23:55 - 24:1, 24:10 Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and "other women" (at least five).
JN 20:1 Mary Magdalene only (one).
.
MUHAMMAD PLAYED A FAR MORE IMPORTANT ROLE IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF ISLAM THAN JESUS DID IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF CHRISTIANITY. ALTHOUGH JESUS WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MAIN ETHICAL AND MORAL PRECEPTS OF CHRISTIANITY (INSOFAR AS THESE DIFFERED FROM JUDAISM), ST. PAUL WAS THE MAIN DEVELOPER OF CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY, ITS PRINCIPAL
PROSELYTIZER, AND THE AUTHOR OF A LARGE PORTION OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.
MUHAMMAD, HOWEVER, WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR BOTH THE THEOLOGY OF ISLAM AND ITS MAIN ETHICAL AND MORAL PRINCIPLES. IN ADDITION, HE PLAYED THE KEY ROLE IN PROSELYTIZING THE NEW FAITH, AND IN ESTABLISHING THE RELIGIOUS PRACTICES OFISLAM.
PAUL THE FOUNDER OF CHRISTIANITY
According to Hart, the honor for founding Christianity is to be shared between Jesus (pbuh) and St. Paul. The latter he believes to be the real founder of Christianity.
I cannot help agreeing with Hart. Out of the total of 27 Books of the New Testament, more than half is authored by Paul. As opposed to Paul, the Master has not written a single word of the twenty-seven books. If you can lay your hands on what is called "'A Red Letter Bible," you will find every word alleged to have been uttered by Jesus (pbuh) - in red ink and the rest in normal black ink. Don't be shocked to find that in this so called "Injeel," the Gospel of Jesus, over ninety percent of the 27 Books of the New Testament is printed in black ink!
This is the candid Christian confession on what they call the "Injeel." In actual any confrontation with Christian missionaries, you will find them quoting one hundred percent from Paul.
NO ONE FOLLOWS JESUS (PBUH) he said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15)
He said further, Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven . . ." (Matthew 5:19)
, "Do you keep the laws and the commandments?" answer is, "No!" If I ask further, "Why don't you?" You will reply, "The law is nailed to the cross!" Meaning the law is done away with. "We are now living under grace!"
Wrong living under hell
Michael H. Hart put Muhammad No. 1 on his list and his own Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (pbuh) No. 3.
William McNeill considers Muhammad as worthy of honour in his list of the first three names of his.
James Gavin puts Muhammad (pbuh) before Jesus Christ (pbuh)
James Masserman adjudges Muhammad (pbuh) No. 1 and his own hero Moses (pbuh) a close second
Muhammad's (pbuh) immediate predecessor advised his disciples, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs" (meaning non-Jews}, "Neither cast ye your pearls before swine" (meaning non-Jews, Matthew 7:6). The Gospel writers are unanimous in recording that Christ lived by the precepts which he preached. In his lifetime he did not preach to a single non-Jew. In fact he spurned a gentile woman who sought his spiritual blessings {"the woman was a Greek'' Mark 7:26). Then during the "Passover" season in Jerusalem when the master with his disciples had congregated for the occasion, certain Greeks hearing of his reputation sought an audience with him for spiritual enlightenment, but Jesus {pbuh} gave them the "cold shoulder'' [Means a deliberately unkind or unfriendly treatment;
Christians problemes
NO SOLUTION from the HOLY GHOST
1. Alcohol
2. Gambling
3. Fortune Telling
4. Idol Worship, Devil Worship
5. Racism
6. Problem of Surplus Women etc etc.
There are thousands of Christian priests who have been lured into alcoholism by sipping the so-called mild wine in the Church rite of the Holy Communion. Islam is the only religion on the face of the earth which prohibits intoxicants in toto. The Holy Prophet (Spirit) Muhummed (pbuh) had said. "WHATEVER INTOXICATES IN GREATER QUANTITY IS FORBIDDEN EVEN IN SMALLER QUANTITY." There is no excuse in the house of Islam for a nip or a tot. The Kitab-al-Haq, the Book of Truth (Haq) one of the titles of the Holy Qur’ân condemned in the strongest terms not only the evil of alcohol but also items 2, 3, and 4 namely "gambling." "fortune telling" and "idol worship," with just a single stroke
(SURA MAIDA) Holy Qur’ân 5:90
O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
When this verse was revealed, wine barrels were emptied in the streets of Madinah, never to be refilled. This simple straightforward directive has created of the Muslim Ummah (religious community) the biggest society of teetotaller1 in the world.
"IF A BOOK COME FROM THE HEART. IT WILL CONTRIVE TO REACH OTHER HEARTS; ALL ART AND AUTHORCRAFT ARE SMALL AMOUNT TO THAT. ONE WOULD SAY THE PRIMARY CHARACTER OF THE KORAN IS THIS OF ITS GENUINENESS, OF ITS BEING A BONA-FIDE BOOK."
5:17
In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."
5:18
(Both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of Allah, and his beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)"
They had to choose between old books people weren't even paying attantion to, and new fashion books with all the latest stories.
The Infany Gospels were one of these "new fashion" books, too flaky and not written as an honest attempt to tell about Christ's early life, but as entertainment!!! That's all it was! A book written for entertainment!!!
Here we now see the differences between the later writen Gospel of John
mostly compared to the earlier written Gospels;
2KI 2:11 Elijah went up to heaven.
JN 3:13 Only the Son of Man (Jesus) has ever ascended to heaven.
IS 44:24 God created heaven and earth alone.
JN 1:1-3 Jesus took part in creation
IS 53:9 Usually taken to be a prophecy re: Jesus, mentions burial with others.
JN 19:38-42 Jesus was buried by himself.
MT 3:16, MK 1:10 It was Jesus who saw the Spirit descending.
JN 1:32 It was John who saw the Spirit descending.
MT 4:1-11, MK 1:12-13 Immediately following his Baptism, Jesus spent forty days in the wilderness resisting temptation by the Devil.
JN 2:1-11 Three days after the Baptism, Jesus was at the wedding in Cana.
MT 10:34, LK 12:49-53 Jesus has come to bring a sword, fire, and division--not peace.
JN 16:33 Jesus says: "In me you have peace."
MT 11:7-15, 17:12-13 Jesus says that John the Baptist was a prophet, and more.
JN 1:21 John himself says that he is not a prophet, nor is he Elijah.
MT 12:39, MK 8:12, LK 11:29 Jesus says that he will give no "sign."
JN 3:2, 20:30, Jesus proceeds to give many such "signs."
MT 13:34, MK 4:34 Jesus addresses the crowds only in parables, so that they would not fully understand. He explains the meaning only to his disciples.
JN 1:1 - 21:25 (Throughout the book of John, unlike the other Gospels, Jesus addresses the crowds in a very straightforward manner. He does not employ parables.)
MT 21:2-6, MK 11:2-7, LK 19:30-35 The disciples follow Jesus instructions and bring him the animal (or animals, in the case of MT).
JN 12:14 Jesus finds the animal himself.
MT 25:34 Heaven was prepared before the Ascension of Jesus.
JN 14:2-3 It was prepared after the Ascension of Jesus.
MT 26:7, MK 14:3, LK 7:37 An unnamed woman does the anointing.
JN 12:3 It is Mary.
MT 26:14-25, MK 14:10-11, LK 22:3-23 Judas made his bargain with the chief priests before the meal.
JN 13:21-30 After the meal.
JN 13:21-30 Jesus forecasts his betrayal prior to the communion portion of the supper.
MT 28:1 The first visitors to the tomb were Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (two).
MK 16:1 Both of the above plus Salome (three).
LK 23:55 - 24:1, 24:10 Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and "other women" (at least five).
JN 20:1 Mary Magdalene only (one).
.
How can you dare say that Muhammed is a prophet of God???
He is NOTHING like Jesus Christ, and he failed to live up to the teachings of Christ.
No prophet is from God when he acts against what a previous prophet of God teaches without a valid reason.
MUHAMMAD PLAYED A FAR MORE IMPORTANT ROLE IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF ISLAM THAN JESUS DID IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF CHRISTIANITY. ALTHOUGH JESUS WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MAIN ETHICAL AND MORAL PRECEPTS OF CHRISTIANITY (INSOFAR AS THESE DIFFERED FROM JUDAISM), ST. PAUL WAS THE MAIN DEVELOPER OF CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY, ITS PRINCIPAL
PROSELYTIZER, AND THE AUTHOR OF A LARGE PORTION OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.
MUHAMMAD, HOWEVER, WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR BOTH THE THEOLOGY OF ISLAM AND ITS MAIN ETHICAL AND MORAL PRINCIPLES. IN ADDITION, HE PLAYED THE KEY ROLE IN PROSELYTIZING THE NEW FAITH, AND IN ESTABLISHING THE RELIGIOUS PRACTICES OFISLAM.
PAUL THE FOUNDER OF CHRISTIANITY
According to Hart, the honor for founding Christianity is to be shared between Jesus (pbuh) and St. Paul. The latter he believes to be the real founder of Christianity.
I cannot help agreeing with Hart. Out of the total of 27 Books of the New Testament, more than half is authored by Paul. As opposed to Paul, the Master has not written a single word of the twenty-seven books. If you can lay your hands on what is called "'A Red Letter Bible," you will find every word alleged to have been uttered by Jesus (pbuh) - in red ink and the rest in normal black ink. Don't be shocked to find that in this so called "Injeel," the Gospel of Jesus, over ninety percent of the 27 Books of the New Testament is printed in black ink!
This is the candid Christian confession on what they call the "Injeel." In actual any confrontation with Christian missionaries, you will find them quoting one hundred percent from Paul.
NO ONE FOLLOWS JESUS (PBUH) he said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15)
He said further, Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven . . ." (Matthew 5:19)
, "Do you keep the laws and the commandments?" answer is, "No!" If I ask further, "Why don't you?" You will reply, "The law is nailed to the cross!" Meaning the law is done away with. "We are now living under grace!"
Wrong living under hell
Michael H. Hart put Muhammad No. 1 on his list and his own Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (pbuh) No. 3.
William McNeill considers Muhammad as worthy of honour in his list of the first three names of his.
James Gavin puts Muhammad (pbuh) before Jesus Christ (pbuh)
James Masserman adjudges Muhammad (pbuh) No. 1 and his own hero Moses (pbuh) a close second
Muhammad's (pbuh) immediate predecessor advised his disciples, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs" (meaning non-Jews}, "Neither cast ye your pearls before swine" (meaning non-Jews, Matthew 7:6). The Gospel writers are unanimous in recording that Christ lived by the precepts which he preached. In his lifetime he did not preach to a single non-Jew. In fact he spurned a gentile woman who sought his spiritual blessings {"the woman was a Greek'' Mark 7:26). Then during the "Passover" season in Jerusalem when the master with his disciples had congregated for the occasion, certain Greeks hearing of his reputation sought an audience with him for spiritual enlightenment, but Jesus {pbuh} gave them the "cold shoulder'' [Means a deliberately unkind or unfriendly treatment;
Christians problemes
NO SOLUTION from the HOLY GHOST
1. Alcohol
2. Gambling
3. Fortune Telling
4. Idol Worship, Devil Worship
5. Racism
6. Problem of Surplus Women etc etc.
There are thousands of Christian priests who have been lured into alcoholism by sipping the so-called mild wine in the Church rite of the Holy Communion. Islam is the only religion on the face of the earth which prohibits intoxicants in toto. The Holy Prophet (Spirit) Muhummed (pbuh) had said. "WHATEVER INTOXICATES IN GREATER QUANTITY IS FORBIDDEN EVEN IN SMALLER QUANTITY." There is no excuse in the house of Islam for a nip or a tot. The Kitab-al-Haq, the Book of Truth (Haq) one of the titles of the Holy Qur’ân condemned in the strongest terms not only the evil of alcohol but also items 2, 3, and 4 namely "gambling." "fortune telling" and "idol worship," with just a single stroke
(SURA MAIDA) Holy Qur’ân 5:90
O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
When this verse was revealed, wine barrels were emptied in the streets of Madinah, never to be refilled. This simple straightforward directive has created of the Muslim Ummah (religious community) the biggest society of teetotaller1 in the world.
"IF A BOOK COME FROM THE HEART. IT WILL CONTRIVE TO REACH OTHER HEARTS; ALL ART AND AUTHORCRAFT ARE SMALL AMOUNT TO THAT. ONE WOULD SAY THE PRIMARY CHARACTER OF THE KORAN IS THIS OF ITS GENUINENESS, OF ITS BEING A BONA-FIDE BOOK."
5:17
In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."
5:18
(Both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of Allah, and his beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)"
Jesus said : All power is given unto me Mt 28:18
Jesus said : I can of mine own self do nothing: Joh 5:30
Jesus said : my Father is greater than I. Joh 14:28
Jesus said : I with the finger of God cast out devils Lu 11:20
Jesus said : I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, Mt 12:28
Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man,
How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman Job 25:4
My Father and your Father; and to my God and your God.” Jesus’ reference to God as “my Father Joh 20:1
Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him Ac 2:22
Jesus is crying for Help, shouting "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me Mat 27:45
Christ Jesus the son of Mary was a messenger of Allah
-
Believer
- Preacher
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 03:42 am
- Location: South
Peace Almonte,
The Son of Man ascended directly to the Right Hand of the Father, Elijah never ascended to the Right Hand of the Almighty!
And Jesus was God!
Jesus died with the wicked, but was buried in a rich man;'s tomb!!!
Jesus did die with wicked men and was buried in a rich man's tomb!!
Obviously everyone saw the Spirit descending on Christ!
Enough aid about these silly litttle false contradictions.
Again, Muhammed veered from the moral teachings of Jesus Christ, ergo he taught a regressive false doctrine. So the Quran leads you on a different less moral path than the Gospels, what does this tell you????
So some priests drink and smoke, alcoholism is a sickness alot of people suffer from.
Only great rivers of wine flow in Jannah!
What are satanic things doing in your paradise??
2KI 2:11 Elijah went up to heaven.
JN 3:13 Only the Son of Man (Jesus) has ever ascended to heaven.
The Son of Man ascended directly to the Right Hand of the Father, Elijah never ascended to the Right Hand of the Almighty!
IS 44:24 God created heaven and earth alone.
JN 1:1-3 Jesus took part in creation
And Jesus was God!
IS 53:9 Usually taken to be a prophecy re: Jesus, mentions burial with others.
JN 19:38-42 Jesus was buried by himself.
Jesus died with the wicked, but was buried in a rich man;'s tomb!!!
Jesus did die with wicked men and was buried in a rich man's tomb!!
MT 3:16, MK 1:10 It was Jesus who saw the Spirit descending.
JN 1:32 It was John who saw the Spirit descending.
Obviously everyone saw the Spirit descending on Christ!
Enough aid about these silly litttle false contradictions.
MUHAMMAD PLAYED A FAR MORE IMPORTANT ROLE IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF ISLAM THAN JESUS DID IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF CHRISTIANITY. ALTHOUGH JESUS WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MAIN ETHICAL AND MORAL PRECEPTS OF CHRISTIANITY (INSOFAR AS THESE DIFFERED FROM JUDAISM), ST. PAUL WAS THE MAIN DEVELOPER OF CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY, ITS PRINCIPAL
PROSELYTIZER, AND THE AUTHOR OF A LARGE PORTION OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.
MUHAMMAD, HOWEVER, WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR BOTH THE THEOLOGY OF ISLAM AND ITS MAIN ETHICAL AND MORAL PRINCIPLES. IN ADDITION, HE PLAYED THE KEY ROLE IN PROSELYTIZING THE NEW FAITH, AND IN ESTABLISHING THE RELIGIOUS PRACTICES OFISLAM.
Again, Muhammed veered from the moral teachings of Jesus Christ, ergo he taught a regressive false doctrine. So the Quran leads you on a different less moral path than the Gospels, what does this tell you????
There are thousands of Christian priests who have been lured into alcoholism by sipping the so-called mild wine in the Church rite of the Holy Communion. Islam is the only religion on the face of the earth which prohibits intoxicants in toto. The Holy Prophet (Spirit) Muhummed (pbuh) had said. "WHATEVER INTOXICATES IN GREATER QUANTITY IS FORBIDDEN EVEN IN SMALLER QUANTITY." There is no excuse in the house of Islam for a nip or a tot. The Kitab-al-Haq, the Book of Truth (Haq) one of the titles of the Holy Qur’ân condemned in the strongest terms not only the evil of alcohol but also items 2, 3, and 4 namely "gambling." "fortune telling" and "idol worship," with just a single stroke
So some priests drink and smoke, alcoholism is a sickness alot of people suffer from.
O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
Only great rivers of wine flow in Jannah!
What are satanic things doing in your paradise??
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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humble_guest
- Preacher
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 03:12 am
Well, there were 100's of different books around by the 3rd century.
One must take heed which of these books is true and which are false.
This was the difficulty the church fathers had when compiling the Bible.
Yes the church fathers had a lot of difficulty sifting through gospels and theological doctrine.
They had to choose between old books people weren't even paying attantion to, and new fashion books with all the latest stories.
The Infany Gospels were one of these "new fashion" books, too flaky and not written as an honest attempt to tell about Christ's early life, but as entertainment!!! That's all it was! A book written for entertainment!!!
Didn't you earlier claim that they were written 400 years after Jesus (pbuh) ascension? The church fathers were still deciding on which gospels were correct at that time? Nice.
The Infancy Gospel stories in the Quran are some of the most irrational unreal stories found in the Infancy Gospels!!!!
What does this tell you????
Irrational to you only because they're not in the Bible. Otherwise they are no more irrational nor miraculous than the Biblical accounts.
This Quran also displays total misunderstanding of Christian doctrine and the mission of Christ, and the prophets...much of what the Quran contains is derived from apocryphal writings!!!
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/
Face it, your book is not the Word of God, but the word of human beings.
If you like what people say over what God truly says, then follow that road.
This is ironic.
I will tell you sir that Islam does not verify or build on the pure and perfect teachings of Jesus Christ...so it is not from God at all.
On the contrary my good sir, Islam builds on the pure and perfect message of Jesus Christ (pbuh) and Moses (pbuh) and Abraham (pbuh) all through to Adam (pbuh). It's Trinitarian Christianity which placed words in Jesus' (pbuh) mouth and diverged from Jesus' (pbuh) true teachings.
I'm only telling you what is REAL.
It is not a reality that a servant supercedes his King,
it is not realistic that a human prophet supercedes the Messiah, the Great King!!! Jesus even said He was the heavenly King!!!!
They were both men and Messengers of God. The difference is that Jesus (pbuh) mission is yet to be fulfilled as the Messiah, which is why he returns.
Or that Jesus sits at the right hand of the Almighty as Lord?
In the Qur'an it says that Jesus (pbuh) ascended to God. Where do you think he is now?
What's wrong with relfecting on the Prophets before prayer?
The problem isn't with reflecting, it's with giving them more importance than was allocated to them by God Almighty, or associating them in worship to God, or having them in mind while worshipping God.
Man, you know whenever people think of Jesus Christ, or Isa, an image of a young man with a beard and smile shows up in their mind...that is with everyone.
Not really, but I'm sure that all the drawings and depictions of Jesus (pbuh) help to instill this image in their minds.
Again, Muhammed veered from the moral teachings of Jesus Christ, ergo he taught a regressive false doctrine. So the Quran leads you on a different less moral path than the Gospels, what does this tell you????
By their fruits ye shall know them.
The Muslims I know are far more moral than any other religious people I know. Just look at this thread as an example. Look at who does the cursing and the sardonic remarking.
Peace bro
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
-
Liberate
- Preacher
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2004 04:41 pm
But I explicitly told you that the chronology and order of the chapters of the Qur'an is irrelevant, and that's what the hadith is referring to. The chapters of the Qur'an were never recited in a particular order during the life of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and that's what Zaid was hesitant about doing.
I am amazed that anybody reading this hadith sees chronology or an implication of chronology implied by the hadith
bukhari 6 201 (Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari: who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it [[color=#444444]Please specify how this relates to chronology it simply states a large part of the koran maybe lost, how do you get that the large part implies chronology?] . And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an."[/color]
your whole premise fails unless you want to cut the hand that feeds you and claim this sahih (authentic) hadith is a lie and what islamic imams, and scholars claim is second only to the koran as inspired is also a lie you will be flying in the face of 90%+ of islam your stance that the koran was written as Mohammed said it and collected it into a book is a blatant fabrication, unless of course you have the original animal skin, barks of wood and leaves Zaid got the koran from.
First of all, please understand what the hadith is saying. Then read the above sites which contain equally authentic hadiths regarding how in fact the Prophet (pbuh) DID oversee the transcription of the Qur'an and its memorization.
In other words you have conflicting hadiths and you chose to believe which ever one makes logical sense to you so whenever you find something in islam that contradicts itself you just interpret it as you want to and still believe it comes from God without looking at the alternative scenario that hold on why would God and his apostle/followers contradict themselves, you also mention it was equally authentic and there I was thinking you were going to say it was a weak hadith.
Bro this is one major misconception. Just because one finds something in Al Tabari or Sahih Bukhary or Muslim doesn't mean they can issue fatwas with it. There are hundreds of thousands of hadiths, and the four main sunni schools of thought use them but still have debates over their classifications. You might want to read this:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/masud/ISLA ... abstlk.htm
In other words you pick and chose which part you believe in and claim to be the more knowledgeable, that website basically says ask an iman who knows better, with that mind set you can justify any islamic belief just find an iman to agree with you.
Do you realise what you are saying suppose the priests of baal baptised their disciples in animal blood, and John the baptist baptises his followers in water they must have come from the same source??
Actually that's exactly what I'm NOT saying. This is what Believer constantly says as he just likes to find similarities in accounts and rites and link them. What I'm saying is don't be like him and exclude the third possibility which is that similarities in rites could be due to the fact that they are linked by a central message, and not that WHENEVER you find a similarity that they are linked by a central message.
I would like to show you something from the previous revelations:
"I am the Lord; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols" Isa 42:8
"we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now He commands all people everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:29-30).
1 cortinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.
Put yourself in the jew or christian shoes for a second and imagine how ridiculous your stance is that the pagan arabs really had the true message of God, even though they were idolaters. (Also notice how I didn't refer you to a 17 page document on a website, with 90% of data completely irrelevant to the topic in hand, is this your idea of discussion to just refer the opposition to a website link, what is the point of a discussion if all you do is refer to a mass document completely irrelevant to the topic)
What you say about Jesus bringing the jews back to the religion of Moses am afraid is not remotely true, Jesus was a jew He used the same scripture as any other jew, He was not here to bring back or take back the messages to some phantom religious practice He was here to fulfill what was already written about Him.
I suggest you read the book I recommended at the beginning of this thread. One of Jesus (pbuh) missions was the return the Jews to the Mosaic Laws as they had been revealed to Moses, which had since changed by the time Jesus (pbuh) was born. The changes were part of the reason why many Jews could not even recognize Jesus (pbuh) to be the foretold Messiah as the criteria had been distorted.
I have heard of conspiracy theories but this one has got to take the biscuit, so Jesus was put to death because He was about to expose the corruption in the torah denying the divine unity and return the jews to the mosaic laws as revealed to Moses?, and the corruption was done on such a large scale that it has Jesus quoting from the corrupted torah in the new testament, if this is what is in your book it is not worth the effort to read dare I say it, it is plain ridiculous.
previous revelations says God is unchanging along comes islam with this brand new law of abrogation that occurred several times over a 22 year period, the rational man must ask himself would an Omniscient and Eternal God abrogate anything He had said within a 22 year period while in the previous 2 revelations there isn't one incidence of abrogation? have you you honestly asked yourself this?
or one thing, abrogation by God Himself isn't at all a point of contention. It's much better than non-Prophetic abrogations which we saw in Judaism and Christianity after the lives of Moses (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh).
Please elaborate on the non-prophetic abrogations in judaism and christianity.
I am well aware that verse is alledgedly from allah
Not only is it FROM God, it is God speaking those words in that particular passage. Often God commands Muhammad (pbuh) to say things in the Qur'an.
when do you differentiate who is allah and who is mohammed?
sura 49:1 Believers, do not behave presumptuously in the presence of God and His Apostle. Have fear of God: God hears all and knows all. Believers, do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor shout aloud when speaking to him as you do to one another....
I am asking you to apply some logical sense to this sura I am not asking you to refer me to an islamic apologist website with mass produced irrelevant material, look at the above sura and ask yourself if someone was being asked a lot of questions and he just wanted to be left alone, doesn't it look like he just made it up?. Think, this is for all mankind what on earth does this command about not raising your voice above the voice of the prophet have to do with a message for all mankind?
Would you care to show us the prophecies in the KORAN how it relates to all mankind as opposed to the previous revelations let us discuss it.
Can you expand on this? What do you mean here?
Show me one prophecy in your koran.
Are you one of those that are prepared to defend the scientific miracle of flies carrying an antidote on one wing and a poison on the other and dipping them in your soup will cure the disease?
I'm familiar with this hadith. How much do you know about what is contained in the wing pouches of flies. You should look into that.
Let me guess you are going to tell me about bacteriophages and how they conflict with other pathogens, please explain how this or indeed whatever is in the wing pouches of flies will have the cure for a disease that you have to dip in the fly in your soup, please don't refer me to a website just tell me what you know. (BTW the fact that you are willing to justify this stupidity of a hadith tells me I am dealing with a fundy, you should have stuck with your usual stance that is it a weak hadith, if you are going to take offence at me calling that hadith stupid I ask you to ask any health care worker what they suggest about dipping flies in your soup and see what they will think of you)
See my above post about the children of the bond woman, your hadiths say the last day won't come until jews are killed and trees say oh servant of allah there is a jew behind me come and kill him, where is the line drawn in islam between politics and religion?
Actually, that hadith is a prophecy and not a command. You have to consider this in the context of who will follow the anti-Christ to fight against Jesus (pbuh).
A prophecy that means in the last days muslim will kill jews? what relevance does that hadith have to do with Jesus?
Would you care to elaborate how the ways of Abraham, Moses differs from the current jews?
The details are as lost as the true teachings of Jesus (pbuh) were it not for the revelation of the Qur'an.
How convenient, you know with such thinking you can basically justify anything you want, I can claim that baal is the one true god and everybody else corrupted his one true teaching or zoroaster or ashura mazda or mithra.
By all means show us the contradictions chances are it has been dealt with numerous times over.
I'm not going to turn my thread into a link spamming of the lack of authenticity of the Bible and its textual contradictions, the internet is rife with that, but I would warn against the false comfort of thinking that since it has been "dealt with" numerous times over that it has been dealt with comprehensively or accurately.
Good point bear that in mind next time you refer to a website
you eat the food it gives you sustenance to keep going, you carry the food long enough it accumulates to the point that it becomes a heavy load, that is what christianity is about spirituality eating and living by the eaten food, the word of God, not doing acts in odd numbers.
Islam, then, is about spirituality AND obeying the commands of God,
Tell me what is spiritual in chanting prayers in arabic which a great many muslims don't understand it, or running around the ka'ba, or doing acts an odd number of times, or wearing islamic dressing suited for the 7th century do you not see this is more cultural than spiritual?
I have looked at the messenger and I am still amazed people would blindly follow an individual whose whole lifestyle is dubious purely on humanistic levels alone, someone who sanctions rape, looting, slavery, and taboo sexual conduct even for his own era alledgedly blessed by his god cannot possibly be following the same God he contradicts in the two previous revelations.
And so long as you base your beliefs on questionable hadiths and the writings of colonialists who intended to besmear religion, you'll always be misguided.
All my material come from islam written by muslims.
Let us use some logic into this, someone says to you "recite" you say "what shall I recite?", the being then suddenly attacks you for no reason, he didn't even give you a scroll to recite from ( and we know you are very good at reciting we have 116 chapters of your recitations) yet the being attacks you for giving him the only answer you can "what shall I recite?", is this kind of being from God, would God suddenly just manhandle you for no reason like this?
The alternative scenario "read" "I cannot read", so an all knowing and omniscient God would suddenly ask a man who doesn't know how to read to read?
You have not even bothered to address the serious allegation of lying in the conflicting accounts in bukhari, tabari and muslim, these are the same people that wrote your koran.
Sorry bro, but you don't have an accurate account of how the Qur'an was first revealed. Nowhere does the text say that Gabriel attacked the Prophet or anything like that, but rather, that he pressed against him:
http://www.arabnews.com/?supname=prophe ... =11&part=5
I read that website, I compared it to what the hadiths say, reading that website you get the impression that the angel cuddled him, "held him close to him lightly" is not implied in any way shape or form by the hadiths, does that make any sense?, he cuddled him to the point that he couldn't breathe and thought he was going to die, do you honestly think people would like to jump off a cliff after being cuddled three times?.
Question:
Please explain the following Qur'anic verse:
"...nor sell my revelations for a trifling price...." (2:41)
Answer:
It basically warns against ignoring the verses of the Almighty for the petty reason of love of this world. In other words, the Qur'an is telling us that when the Almighty demands from us sacrifice for the sake of religion, like spending wealth in his way, or accepting the opinion of someone whom we otherwise don't like, we have to, indeed, sacrifice our wealth or pride. Those who don't respond to the Almighty's call, are, as if, selling the Almighty's verses and purchasing petty worldly gains in exchange. The Jews, who are the direct addressees of this verse, were especially guilty of this crime, when they refused to accept prophet Muhammad (pbuh)as the messenger of Allah. And this for the petty reason that they did not want to accept a prophet from Bani Isma'il, who they thought was an inferior race to theirs.
are you going to claim Mohammed had no access to jewish scriptures? why is this sura there what does it mean by not taking a mean price in exchange for my scriptures, think about it logically, where did Mohammed get all his biblical stories from? did he pay for it? why did he ask Zaid to study the book of the people of the book?
You are giving more credit than what is due, just answer this question did Mohammed have access to jewish scriptures? yes or no
So the misconception of the pagan arabs, the early muslims and indeed most of the world in this day and age felt it was taboo to marry your son's wife, but Mohammed was the one to gain sexually from this and justified it
Mohammed was also to gain by taking 5% of booty regardless of wether it was the sacred month of rahab
Explain how this is leniency, to whom? what kind of a messenger from God is this that his god takes every occasion to bless him with sexual exploits?
But in fact there are a number of other hadiths, all of them well authenticated (hasan) or rigorously authenticated (sahih)
Yet you are prepared to dismiss (sahih) hadiths even though this above post says they have been rigorously authenticated when it suits you.
Also, you're the only one sexualizing the stories. In addition, if you're claiming that the Prophet was advantaged by Islam, the Prophet didn't NEED Islam to legitimize his marriages, since pagan Arabia didn't even think twice about fornication what would be the point about going through the observances of marriage? Most importantly, you should accurately read about the details of that marriage:
I have read the details of many of the stories, how the pagan arabs and indeed many of the muslims were shocked that mohammed wanted to marry zaid's wife, and the ridiculousness of God blessing the 'lust' of a man for his son's wife and making sure his prophet got the wife of his son, it is just plain ridiculous to think that a God who punished David for adultery to the point that the sword never left his home would make sure mohammed obtained his adopted son's wife, a 6 year old girl " not yet ready for consumation" and steal, loot from hard working pagan businessmen
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humble_guest
- Preacher
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Please specify how this relates to chronology it simply states a large part of the koran maybe lost, how do you get that the large part implies chronology
First of all, did you read the other hadiths I gave you in the links? Second of all, yes, in the hypothetical situation posed in the hadith, the fear was that so many Muslims would die that there would not be enough full memorizers to verify its transmission. (If you read about what the most authenticated form of transmission is, you'd know how many need to authenticate it and from however many different areas and so on)
In other words you have conflicting hadiths and you chose to believe which ever one makes logical sense to you so whenever you find something in islam that contradicts itself you just interpret it as you want to and still believe it comes from God without looking at the alternative scenario that hold on why would God and his apostle/followers contradict themselves, you also mention it was equally authentic and there I was thinking you were going to say it was a weak hadith.
Choose? Are you reading ANY of the links I'm posting? How are you ever going to understand what happened if you're basing this whole conversation on what you only think is reliable info?
In other words you pick and chose which part you believe in and claim to be the more knowledgeable, that website basically says ask an iman who knows better, with that mind set you can justify any islamic belief just find an iman to agree with you.
It's always better to ask a scholar who's memorized the Qur'an and hundreds of thousands of hadiths than to flip open a Sahih Muslim book of hadith and start making your own interpretations.
Here,
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/masud/ISLAM/nuh/studyh.htm
Put yourself in the jew or christian shoes for a second and imagine how ridiculous your stance is that the pagan arabs really had the true message of God, even though they were idolaters. (Also notice how I didn't refer you to a 17 page document on a website, with 90% of data completely irrelevant to the topic in hand, is this your idea of discussion to just refer the opposition to a website link, what is the point of a discussion if all you do is refer to a mass document completely irrelevant to the topic)
Because people have dealt with these issues thoroughly and academically.
Unless you enjoy trading baseless allegations and having conversations with me without ever gaining any new information, then I suggest you sit down and do some reading, as much as possible.
so Jesus was put to death because He was about to expose the corruption in the torah denying the divine unity and return the jews to the mosaic laws as revealed to Moses
He wasn't put to death, though this was the intention. Also, he wasn't just ABOUT to expose, he DID. The early Unitarian followers of Jesus (pbuh) are a testament to this, they all lived by the Mosaic laws.
and the corruption was done on such a large scale that it has Jesus quoting from the corrupted torah in the new testament, if this is what is in your book it is not worth the effort to read dare I say it, it is plain ridiculous.
This is EXACTLY why I link you to pages. When I give you a short paragraph summary, it's too abrupt and incoherent. When I give you a link, it's too long for you to read. You should read the book exactly SO you can get more background information. Nice reasoning though.
Please elaborate on the non-prophetic abrogations in judaism and christianity.
How many laws do Jews and Christians still follow even from what is contained in their Scriptures. I don't even mean regular people, how many do Rabbis and Priests say are still laws that they should live by?
I am asking you to apply some logical sense to this sura I am not asking you to refer me to an islamic apologist website with mass produced irrelevant material, look at the above sura and ask yourself if someone was being asked a lot of questions and he just wanted to be left alone, doesn't it look like he just made it up?. Think, this is for all mankind what on earth does this command about not raising your voice above the voice of the prophet have to do with a message for all mankind?
You should have read the link because it answered your question on shifts from first to third person and so on. In addition, many verses were revealed specific to the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), especially ones about the Hypocrites in the community, the battles with the pagans, and so on. Does this one verse apply to humanity today? Obviously not. In fact, that's one thing many don't understand, they pick a verse about the battles with the pagans and say "see, this is what Muslims are commanded to do all day long"
Show me one prophecy in your koran.
This is a major one.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/defeat_romans.htm
http://www.understanding-islam.com/rela ... n&qid=1342
Also, the hadith texts contain many prophecies of the End Times.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/p ... es_muh.htm
Let me guess you are going to tell me about bacteriophages and how they conflict with other pathogens, please explain how this or indeed whatever is in the wing pouches of flies will have the cure for a disease that you have to dip in the fly in your soup, please don't refer me to a website just tell me what you know. (BTW the fact that you are willing to justify this stupidity of a hadith tells me I am dealing with a fundy, you should have stuck with your usual stance that is it a weak hadith, if you are going to take offence at me calling that hadith stupid I ask you to ask any health care worker what they suggest about dipping flies in your soup and see what they will think of you)
I'm not going to make conjectures because I'm not that familiar with biology but I'm also not going to say a hadith is weak just because I'm not sure about it. Also, I think it's clear that if the hadith is understood figuratively, as many regarding prophecies ought to be, it's impressive.
A prophecy that means in the last days muslim will kill jews? what relevance does that hadith have to do with Jesus?
The anti-Christ precedes Jesus (pbuh) and MANY people mistake the anti-Christ to be the Messiah (as this is one of his claims). The followers of the anti-Christ fight against those who follow Jesus (pbuh) when he returns, until Jesus (pbuh) destroys the anti-Christ.
www.jesuswillreturn.com
How convenient, you know with such thinking you can basically justify anything you want, I can claim that baal is the one true god and everybody else corrupted his one true teaching or zoroaster or ashura mazda or mithra.
If you want to blinder yourself from everything else that revelation states, then yes, you COULD claim that. I wouldn't base my life on that, though.
Good point bear that in mind next time you refer to a website
Don’t' get me wrong, I'm going to continue to post reliable links about Islam and the Qur'an. What I was saying is that the internet is full of assaults on the Bible by all kinds of people, I'll leave you to do your own research in that regard.
Tell me what is spiritual in chanting prayers in arabic which a great many muslims don't understand it
They SHOULD understand it. Arabic is used when reciting Qur'an so that an equivocation or translation isn't used instead. Muslims believe in literalness that the Qur'an as it was revealed is the word of God. Some people make supplication in whatever language they like.
running around the ka'ba, or doing acts an odd number of times
A lot of people don't understand the importance of demonstrating complete obedience to God. Muslims take their religion more seriously than anything else, and strive to obey God and emulate the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in his acts of worship as he is the benchmark for mankind.
Dr. Mustafa as-Siba'i
The Sunnah and its Position in the Islamic Sharee'ah
As-Sunnah wa Makaanatuhaa fit-Tashree` al-Islaamee Translated by: Ahmed M. Hashim
The Companions of the Prophet (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) used to take the ruling on different matters in their lives from the Qur'ân, which they use to learn from the messenger of Allah, Muhammad (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam). In many instances, the aayaah (verses) of the Qur'ân treat a subject in a general manner without a specific condition. Sometimes the aayaah will come as an absolute ruling without any precondition or limitation required by time, place, etc. As an example of what came in a general way in the Qur'ân is the Salaah. The Qur'ân does not mention how many Rak`ahs (units of prayer) we should make, or how to physically move during prayer, or the time for prayer. Similarly, the Qur'ân does not mention the minimum amount of money to have before giving Zakaah (charity) or the conditions by which to pay it. Many of our `Ibaadaah cannot be performed without stopping at the explanations related to the regulations, pillars, and conditions of nullification. It is thus a must to return to Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) to know the rules in a comprehensive and clear manner.
Many times, the Companions faced incidents in which the Qur'ân which had no ruling, and there was a need to return to the Prophet (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) to know the ruling of such matters. It was the Prophet who was ordered by Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) to teach humanity, and it is the Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s) who is the most knowledgeable of mankind about that which Allah subhaanahuwata`aalaa expects from us.
Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) has told us about the duty of Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) with respect to the Qur'ân, where Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) said:
"And We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought." [Qur'ân 16:44]
Allah also made it clear to us that the duty of Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) is to clarify the truth to people when there is a dispute:
"And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou should make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe." [Qur'ân 16:64]
We are obligated to follow any ruling by Rasoolullaah Muhammad (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) in any dispute:
"But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction." [Qur'ân 4:65]
Allah also mentioned that Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) was given the Qur'ân and Wisdom to teach people the regulations of their religion:
"Allah did confer a great favour on the believers when He sent among them an apostle from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs of Allah, sanctifying them, and instructing them in Scripture and Wisdom, while, before that, they had been in manifest error." [Qur'ân 3:164]
Regarding the last aayaah, most scholars and those of great knowledge said that the wisdom mentioned in the aayaah means another thing besides the Qur'ân. It is what Allah subhaanahuwata`aalaa has given Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) from the knowledge of matters and regulations that the rest of humanity can not attain. Imaam Ash-Shafi'ee rahimahullah has said that "Allah subhaanahuwata`aalaa has mentioned the scripture which is the Qur'ân, and he mentioned wisdom and I have learned from the people of knowledge that the wisdom here is the Sunnah of Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam). It is from the mercy of Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) that He has sent to us a way to practice what is in the Qur'ân."
Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) did not stop by saying scripture only, but the inclusion of the Sunnah with the Qur'ân is an indication of its important and the obligation on us to follow it as we have to follow the Qur'ân. Imaam Ash-Shafi'ee goes on saying that the letter 'wa' ('and' between Scripture and Wisdom in the aayaah) is a letter of conjunctions in Arabic which requires that the two parts it joins must be different otherwise the sentence will be redundant, and Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) is far away from that; Na`oodhubillaah. And so when Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) said that he has conferred a great favor on the believers, He does not confer anything that is not correct and truthful. Therefore, this wisdom must be followed as the Qur'ân, and Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) has never ordered us to follow anything but Him and His messenger Muhammad (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam). Which must mean that this wisdom is what came from Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) in the form of rules and sayings regarding legislation.
To clarify the Concept of Sunnah and our obligation to follow it, Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) said: "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper." [Qur'ân 7:157]
Because this teaching is mentioned in general in this aayaah, then it must include the rules in the Qur'ân and Sunnah.
A very strong indicator of the obligation upon us to follow the Sunnah can be found in this aayaah: "...And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is severe in punishment." [Qur'ân 59:7]
Allah has also made the obedience of Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) in conjunction with the obedience to Him:
"And obey Allah and the Messenger, that ye may obtain mercy." [Qur'ân 3:132]
We are asked by Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) to answer any order by Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam):
"O ye who believe! give your response to Allah and His Messenger, when He calleth you to that which will give you life." [Qur'ân 8:24]
Allah made the obedience of Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) an obedience to Him, and following Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) an indication of the love of Allah subhaanahuwata`aalaa:
"He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah." [Qur'ân 4:80]
"Say: If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you sins." [Qur'ân 3:31]
And Allah subhaanahuwata`aalaa warned us from not following the instructions of Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam):
"Then let those beware who withstand the Messenger’s order, lest some trial befall them, or a grievous penalty be inflicted on them." [Qur'ân 24:63]
Not only that, but Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) told us that disobeying Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) is Kufr (disbelief): "Say: Obey Allah and His Messenger.: But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith." [Qur'ân 3:32]
It was never allowed by Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) that a believer disobey Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam's) order:
"It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path." [Qur'ân 33:36]
To show that not following the ruling of Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) when a dispute occurs is a sign of hypocrisy, Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) says:
"They say, We believe in Allah and in the apostle, and we obey; but even after that, some of them turn away; they are not (really) Believers. When they are summoned to Allah and His apostle, in order that He may judge between them, behold some of them decline (to come)....The answer of the Believers, when summoned to Allah and His Messenger, in order that He may judge between them, is no other than this: they say, "We hear and we obey"; it is such as these that will attain felicity." [Qur'ân 24:47-51]
wearing islamic dressing suited for the 7th century do you not see this is more cultural than spiritual?
This would be considered cultural, except that some hadiths talk about the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) wearing a white cap and how this is Sunnah among other things.
All my material come from islam written by muslims.
Just because a Muslim wrote it, doesn't mean he is representing Islam. And just because a Muslim did it, doesn't mean he's following Islam properly.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/masud/ISLA ... adhhab.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/masud/ISLA ... abstlk.htm
I read that website, I compared it to what the hadiths say, reading that website you get the impression that the angel cuddled him, "held him close to him lightly" is not implied in any way shape or form by the hadiths, does that make any sense?, he cuddled him to the point that he couldn't breathe and thought he was going to die, do you honestly think people would like to jump off a cliff after being cuddled three times?.
Good, keep reading:
http://www.prophetmuhammed.org/Biography.asp
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Arti ... seerat.htm
You are giving more credit than what is due, just answer this question did Mohammed have access to jewish scriptures? yes or no
Depends on when in his life you're talking about, but yes, it's clearly not impossible that the Jewish tribes around Medina carried a Torah around with them.
http://www.ymofmd.com/books/prophethood ... _judao.htm
Yet you are prepared to dismiss (sahih) hadiths even though this above post says they have been rigorously authenticated when it suits you.
Ok, now you are seriously becoming incoherent. I wish you'd just read about what a hadith is, who SAYS when it is sahih, and what that means. And I'm not a hadith master, so I myself would never claim to be able to dismiss a hadith as fabricated when I don't have knowledge of it. But I can tell you that some of the hadiths you did post up there, are.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/masud/ISLAM/nuh/studyh.htm
I have read the details of many of the stories, how the pagan arabs and indeed many of the muslims were shocked that mohammed wanted to marry zaid's wife, and the ridiculousness of God blessing the 'lust' of a man for his son's wife and making sure his prophet got the wife of his son, it is just plain ridiculous to think that a God who punished David for adultery to the point that the sword never left his home would make sure mohammed obtained his adopted son's wife, a 6 year old girl " not yet ready for consumation" and steal, loot from hard working pagan businessmen
Wow, I don't even know where to start with this paragraph.
In the capacity of the last Prophet he married one woman namely Hadhrat Zaynab bint-i-Jahash (ra). Hadhrat Zainab bint-i-Jahash (ra) was also a cousin of the Prophet (pbuh). Before this marriage, Allah revealed the special injunction regarding the law governing the marriages of the Prophet (pbuh), removing the limit of four wives for him, so that he could fulfill his responsibilities in his different capacities. This marriage was prompted by a special incident. Hadhrat Zaynab (ra) got married to Hadhrat Zayed (ra) - the freed slave and adopted son of the Prophet (pbuh). This marriage took place on the insistence of the Prophet (pbuh), although Hadhrat Zaynab (ra) did not want it. The reason was that she belonged to the elite of Makkah and Hadhrat Zayed (ra) was a former slave. The marriage remained on rocks throughout the period that they lived together because Hadhrat Zaynab (ra) considered herself socially superior to Hadhrat Zayed (ra). Tired by their regular clashes and Hadhrat Zaynab's (ra) indifference towards him, Hadhrat Zayed (ra) showed his intention to divorce Hadhrat Zaynab (ra) time and again. However, the Prophet (pbuh) persuaded him not to do so, because he felt responsible for any mishap, as the marriage had taken place on his insistence. Secondly the message of equality of slaves and free humans that he wanted to practically communicate through this marriage would fail in case of divorce. Nevertheless, because of these troubles of the marriage, foreseeing divorce as inevitable in the near future, the Prophet (pbuh) was already considering to marry Hadhrat Zaynab (ra) if as the last resort the incident of divorce did take place, in order to console her (because the marriage had taken place on the Prophet's insistence). Moreover, keeping in mind the social status of slaves, it was highly unlikely that any person of a good social standing would take Hadhrat Zaynab in marriage, as she would then be a divorcee of a slave. The only reluctance, which the Prophet (pbuh) had in this regard, was that marriage with the divorcee or the widow of one's adopted son was considered prohibited, exactly like marriage with the divorcee or the widow of one's real son. However, ultimately, Hadhrat Zayed (ra) divorced Hadhrat Zaynab (ra). It was at this juncture that the Qur'an intervened and in order to correct the wrong tradition (of holding the divorcee or the widow of one's adopted son prohibited), the Prophet (pbuh) was directed to marry Hadhrat Zaynab. While directing the Prophet (pbuh) to marry Hadhrat Zaynab (ra), the Qur'an has specifically mentioned that because as the last prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is also supposed to correct all the wrong traditions that are followed in the name of the Shari`ah and thereby complete God's religion in totality, therefore it is essential that this tradition be corrected by the Prophet (pbuh).
his adopted son's wife, a 6 year old girl
I think you're confusing her with Ayesha (ra)…
http://www.understanding-islam.com/rela ... on&qid=375
http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-032.htm
http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-004.htm
http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-005.htm
http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-006.htm
and steal, loot from hard working pagan businessmen
Or follow the command of God regarding peoples who were trying to end the true religion in the sight of God and murder His Prophet.
But this all depends on whether or not you want to believe. You remind me of an atheist who refused to believe in God because he said that God would never ask Abraham to kill his own son. All I can say is that the creation has no right upon the Creator. Only an arrogant person would ever think otherwise, and we all know where arrogance leads.
The answer of the Believers, when summoned to God and His Apostle, in order that He may judge between them, is no other than this: they say, "We hear and we obey": it is such as these that will attain felicity. It is such as obey God and His Apostle, and fear God and do right, that will win (in the end), (Qur'an 24:51-52)
Peace bro
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
- Preacher
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Peace humble guest,
Yes man! They has a tough time, but it's graet they were very smart and God was guiding them.
Do you beliebve that God was guiding the Church fathers when they were compiling the Bible?? Sure God wanted the Bible to be truthful, not a bokk of myths and fables!
So they picked the earliest ones, the best most effective way in finding the truthful Gospels.
Hey, if you want to believe that baby Jesus made live birds from clay and spoke to a date-palm that gave a stream of water....why not believe that the Lord would transcend to earth as Christ to give us pure teachings and bear our sins??
Doesn't even address about the Quran's total misunderstanding of Christian doctrine and the mission of Christ.
Okay. let's put the Trinity issue aside for a second.
Jesus taight us to love our enemies as ourselves, and He told us that even pagans greet their friends but not their enemies.
Did Muhammed love his enemies? Was he different than the pagans in the ways he treated his enemies?
Jesus showed love and mercy to whores and adulteresses and sinners, often teaching the Word of God to them in their dives.
Christ spared the adulteress from the angry Jews.
Did Muhammed show love and mercy to sexual sinners and thieves? Why did Muhammed kill adulteresses and kill people??
Jesus taught us that marriage was a sacred bond between two peopple, and if two people divorce and remmary, they commit adultery.
Muhammed was married many times, had divorces.
Muhammed used some of his marriages for purely political reasons! He made a mockery out of a very sacred bond.
There are more reasons too that Muhammed transgressed Jesus's teachings, ergo he was not a prophet of God.
No prophet of God transgresses the teachings of God delivered by the previous prophet.
Jesus very much finished His mission!
So He has another different mission to fulfill when He comes back.
Muhammed transgressed Christ's teachings!
He came from the Father, now He has returned to the Father.
He sits on a glorious throne ON PAR with the Father.
No mortal being sit's next to God like that!
OKay.
Those images help me pray.
I can picture Jesus as the Good Shepard when I pray, and this is good for Christian prayer.
Sue there are very moral Muslims and Christians that lapse into immorality for a time.
But that is not what I'm talking about.
Islam puts you on a different course than Jesus's holy perfect teachings.
Your prophet Muhammed even failed to live up to Jesus's teachings!
Yes the church fathers had a lot of difficulty sifting through gospels and theological doctrine.
Yes man! They has a tough time, but it's graet they were very smart and God was guiding them.
Do you beliebve that God was guiding the Church fathers when they were compiling the Bible?? Sure God wanted the Bible to be truthful, not a bokk of myths and fables!
Didn't you earlier claim that they were written 400 years after Jesus (pbuh) ascension? The church fathers were still deciding on which gospels were correct at that time? Nice.
So they picked the earliest ones, the best most effective way in finding the truthful Gospels.
Irrational to you only because they're not in the Bible. Otherwise they are no more irrational nor miraculous than the Biblical accounts.
Hey, if you want to believe that baby Jesus made live birds from clay and spoke to a date-palm that gave a stream of water....why not believe that the Lord would transcend to earth as Christ to give us pure teachings and bear our sins??
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/
Doesn't even address about the Quran's total misunderstanding of Christian doctrine and the mission of Christ.
On the contrary my good sir, Islam builds on the pure and perfect message of Jesus Christ (pbuh) and Moses (pbuh) and Abraham (pbuh) all through to Adam (pbuh). It's Trinitarian Christianity which placed words in Jesus' (pbuh) mouth and diverged from Jesus' (pbuh) true teachings.
Okay. let's put the Trinity issue aside for a second.
Jesus taight us to love our enemies as ourselves, and He told us that even pagans greet their friends but not their enemies.
Did Muhammed love his enemies? Was he different than the pagans in the ways he treated his enemies?
Jesus showed love and mercy to whores and adulteresses and sinners, often teaching the Word of God to them in their dives.
Christ spared the adulteress from the angry Jews.
Did Muhammed show love and mercy to sexual sinners and thieves? Why did Muhammed kill adulteresses and kill people??
Jesus taught us that marriage was a sacred bond between two peopple, and if two people divorce and remmary, they commit adultery.
Muhammed was married many times, had divorces.
Muhammed used some of his marriages for purely political reasons! He made a mockery out of a very sacred bond.
There are more reasons too that Muhammed transgressed Jesus's teachings, ergo he was not a prophet of God.
No prophet of God transgresses the teachings of God delivered by the previous prophet.
They were both men and Messengers of God. The difference is that Jesus (pbuh) mission is yet to be fulfilled as the Messiah, which is why he returns.
Jesus very much finished His mission!
So He has another different mission to fulfill when He comes back.
Muhammed transgressed Christ's teachings!
In the Qur'an it says that Jesus (pbuh) ascended to God. Where do you think he is now?
He came from the Father, now He has returned to the Father.
He sits on a glorious throne ON PAR with the Father.
No mortal being sit's next to God like that!
The problem isn't with reflecting, it's with giving them more importance than was allocated to them by God Almighty, or associating them in worship to God, or having them in mind while worshipping God.
OKay.
Not really, but I'm sure that all the drawings and depictions of Jesus (pbuh) help to instill this image in their minds.
Those images help me pray.
I can picture Jesus as the Good Shepard when I pray, and this is good for Christian prayer.
By their fruits ye shall know them.
The Muslims I know are far more moral than any other religious people I know. Just look at this thread as an example. Look at who does the cursing and the sardonic remarking.
Sue there are very moral Muslims and Christians that lapse into immorality for a time.
But that is not what I'm talking about.
Islam puts you on a different course than Jesus's holy perfect teachings.
Your prophet Muhammed even failed to live up to Jesus's teachings!
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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Liberate
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humble_guest wrote:Please specify how this relates to chronology it simply states a large part of the koran maybe lost, how do you get that the large part implies chronologyFirst of all, did you read the other hadiths I gave you in the links? Second of all, yes, in the hypothetical situation posed in the hadith, the fear was that so many Muslims would die that there would not be enough full memorizers to verify its transmission. (If you read about what the most authenticated form of transmission is, you'd know how many need to authenticate it and from however many different areas and so on)
Tell us when sahih Bukhari and sahih muslim started their hadith collection how long after the death of Mohammed and indeed the completion of the koran did they start their collection? who started the chain of transmission and the science of hadith?In other words you have conflicting hadiths and you chose to believe which ever one makes logical sense to you so whenever you find something in islam that contradicts itself you just interpret it as you want to and still believe it comes from God without looking at the alternative scenario that hold on why would God and his apostle/followers contradict themselves, you also mention it was equally authentic and there I was thinking you were going to say it was a weak hadith.Choose? Are you reading ANY of the links I'm posting? How are you ever going to understand what happened if you're basing this whole conversation on what you only think is reliable info?
I stand by my original point, read your posts and see where you claim this hadith is a weak hadith and it may not be authentic, in other words you chose what you want to believe.In other words you pick and chose which part you believe in and claim to be the more knowledgeable, that website basically says ask an iman who knows better, with that mind set you can justify any islamic belief just find an iman to agree with you.It's always better to ask a scholar who's memorized the Qur'an and hundreds of thousands of hadiths than to flip open a Sahih Muslim book of hadith and start making your own interpretations.
Wait a minute isn't this religion suppose to be simple enough a child is able to understand?
what happens when several scholars who have memorised the quran conflict in interpretation what do you do then?
please don't refer me to a link just answer the question in your own words.Put yourself in the jew or christian shoes for a second and imagine how ridiculous your stance is that the pagan arabs really had the true message of God, even though they were idolaters. (Also notice how I didn't refer you to a 17 page document on a website, with 90% of data completely irrelevant to the topic in hand, is this your idea of discussion to just refer the opposition to a website link, what is the point of a discussion if all you do is refer to a mass document completely irrelevant to the topic)Because people have dealt with these issues thoroughly and academically.
Sources please.Unless you enjoy trading baseless allegations and having conversations with me without ever gaining any new information, then I suggest you sit down and do some reading, as much as possible.
If you chose to conduct a conversation by simply saying go read this muslim apologist website, you do realise there are also counter arguments against your websites, I would like to know what you know about islam and how you justify it, I have read your links and I have also read links that counter what your links say, I am trying a different alternative, anyody can create a website and claim whatever they want I want you to apply simple logic based on the religious scripture we have.so Jesus was put to death because He was about to expose the corruption in the torah denying the divine unity and return the jews to the mosaic laws as revealed to Moses.He wasn't put to death, though this was the intention. Also, he wasn't just ABOUT to expose, he DID. The early Unitarian followers of Jesus (pbuh) are a testament to this, they all lived by the Mosaic laws
I have noticed you spout about unitarians, lets reason this out so the early unitarians believed in the mosaic law, like the jews so why isn't the muslim practicing mosaic law?
Where is your evidence that the arabian peninsula was full of these unitarians, the unitarians simply did not have any religious creed and denied the virgin birth of Jesus (bear that in mind the next time you mention unitarian followers of Jesus), I have noticed how you reiterate about these phantom unitarians that followed the teachings of Jesus, where were they? a few sentences please, don't refer me to a link just answer the question.Please elaborate on the non-prophetic abrogations in judaism and christianity.How many laws do Jews and Christians still follow even from what is contained in their Scriptures. I don't even mean regular people, how many do Rabbis and Priests say are still laws that they should live by?
The christian has no hold on what the jews or anybody choses to believe, since you obviously do not understand christianity I wouldn't expect you to know why christians no longer follow mosaic law.I am asking you to apply some logical sense to this sura I am not asking you to refer me to an islamic apologist website with mass produced irrelevant material, look at the above sura and ask yourself if someone was being asked a lot of questions and he just wanted to be left alone, doesn't it look like he just made it up?. Think, this is for all mankind what on earth does this command about not raising your voice above the voice of the prophet have to do with a message for all mankind?You should have read the link because it answered your question on shifts from first to third person and so on. In addition, many verses were revealed specific to the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), especially ones about the Hypocrites in the community, the battles with the pagans, and so on. Does this one verse apply to humanity today? Obviously not. In fact, that's one thing many don't understand, they pick a verse about the battles with the pagans and say "see, this is what Muslims are commanded to do all day long"
I fail to see what your response has to do with my question, notice how you suddenly claimed it answered my previous post of shifts from first to third person, which is not even the question I was asking, please focus on the question.Show me one prophecy in your koran.This is a major one.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/defeat_romans.htm
http://www.understanding-islam.com/rela ... n&qid=1342
Also, the hadith texts contain many prophecies of the End Times.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/p ... es_muh.htm
Sigh
I asked you to give me a prophecy from the koran (not hadith), if I wanted to get a link for the prophecies I could have done it myself, I asked you to give me the prophecies for a reason, you see the prophecies are not that many I suspect you can count them on one hand, and I wanted you to show us those prophecies for discussion, not refer me to a website link.
BTW I could show you a link that shows your roman defeat of the byzantines is not a prophecy. Please give me another prophecy from your koran, don't give me link just print the sura and the historical prophecy.Let me guess you are going to tell me about bacteriophages and how they conflict with other pathogens, please explain how this or indeed whatever is in the wing pouches of flies will have the cure for a disease that you have to dip in the fly in your soup, please don't refer me to a website just tell me what you know. (BTW the fact that you are willing to justify this stupidity of a hadith tells me I am dealing with a fundy, you should have stuck with your usual stance that is it a weak hadith, if you are going to take offence at me calling that hadith stupid I ask you to ask any health care worker what they suggest about dipping flies in your soup and see what they will think of you)I'm not going to make conjectures because I'm not that familiar with biology but I'm also not going to say a hadith is weak just because I'm not sure about it. Also, I think it's clear that if the hadith is understood figuratively, as many regarding prophecies ought to be, it's impressive.
Notice how you switch your tone first you were about to defend the hadith that flies have antidote and poison under their wing pouches but now you say it's figurative? It is figurative in what way?, please elaborate there is no need to refer me to a website, just elaborate it here.A prophecy that means in the last days muslim will kill jews? what relevance does that hadith have to do with Jesus?The anti-Christ precedes Jesus (pbuh) and MANY people mistake the anti-Christ to be the Messiah (as this is one of his claims). The followers of the anti-Christ fight against those who follow Jesus (pbuh) when he returns, until Jesus (pbuh) destroys the anti-Christ.
www.jesuswillreturn.com
You do realise this could have been plagiarised from christianity?How convenient, you know with such thinking you can basically justify anything you want, I can claim that baal is the one true god and everybody else corrupted his one true teaching or zoroaster or ashura mazda or mithra.If you want to blinder yourself from everything else that revelation states, then yes, you COULD claim that. I wouldn't base my life on that, though.
How do you determine what is revelation from God and what is revelation from the devil, if you want to claim your religion holds the true message and all others have been corrupted with no archaelogical backup of your statements of any kind, why should anybody believe you?I read that website, I compared it to what the hadiths say, reading that website you get the impression that the angel cuddled him, "held him close to him lightly" is not implied in any way shape or form by the hadiths, does that make any sense?, he cuddled him to the point that he couldn't breathe and thought he was going to die, do you honestly think people would like to jump off a cliff after being cuddled three times?.
Good, keep reading:
As apologetical websites go this is one of the worst I have seen.
I suggest you do not refer to that website to back up your view that is the same website the authors claim Mohammed was in perfect health throughout his life, while a hadith narrated by Aisha says no one was as sick as the prophet.You are giving more credit than what is due, just answer this question did Mohammed have access to jewish scriptures? yes or noDepends on when in his life you're talking about, but yes, it's clearly not impossible that the Jewish tribes around Medina carried a Torah around with them.
We have finally made some progress in our discussion, now ask yourself why Mohammed asked Zaid, the final collector of the koran to study the book of the people of the book.I have read the details of many of the stories, how the pagan arabs and indeed many of the muslims were shocked that mohammed wanted to marry zaid's wife, and the ridiculousness of God blessing the 'lust' of a man for his son's wife and making sure his prophet got the wife of his son, it is just plain ridiculous to think that a God who punished David for adultery to the point that the sword never left his home would make sure mohammed obtained his adopted son's wife, a 6 year old girl " not yet ready for consumation" and steal, loot from hard working pagan businessmenhis adopted son's wife, a 6 year old girlI think you're confusing her with Ayesha (ra)…
No, I am well aware of Zainab, Aisha, Raynahyah, Safiyah, Mary and others, notice the comma.and steal, loot from hard working pagan businessmenOr follow the command of God regarding peoples who were trying to end the true religion in the sight of God and murder His Prophet.
I suggest you read your hadiths Mohammed had conducted raids against the pagan businessmen some 70+ times without retaliation, they had had enough, and had come to bring him to justice.But this all depends on whether or not you want to believe. You remind me of an atheist who refused to believe in God because he said that God would never ask Abraham to kill his own son. All I can say is that the creation has no right upon the Creator. Only an arrogant person would ever think otherwise, and we all know where arrogance leads.
The creator has already said there is no other way to go but by Jesus the buck stops with Him, our faith explains where yours come from and why yours exist and the end result of your faith, the simply is no comparison on the one hand we have a sinless Messiah acknowledged as sinless even by your koran while your prophet stole, killed and enslaved jewish and christian women, to his credit he says he does not know what is going to happen to him when he dies, it's a pity 2 billion people equally don't know what is going to happen to them.
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humble_guest
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God was guiding the Church fathers
So they picked the earliest ones, the best most effective way in finding the truthful Gospels
No comment. I just loved these two sentences so much I wanted to quote them for progeny.
if you want to believe that baby Jesus made live birds from clay and spoke to a date-palm that gave a stream of water....why not believe that the Lord would transcend to earth as Christ to give us pure teachings and bear our sins??
Because I'm not in the business of conjecturing about what happened in history or inventing new theologies. I believe ONLY in what God has revealed to mankind.
Doesn't even address about the Quran's total misunderstanding of Christian doctrine and the mission of Christ.
You didn't even read it. And tell me, where is the misunderstanding in the verse:
“And they say: Allah has taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified! Nay, but whatsoever is in the heaven and the earth are His. All are subservient unto Him. The originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decrees a thing, He says unto it only: Be! and it is” (2:116-117).
There are more reasons too that Muhammed transgressed Jesus's teachings, ergo he was not a prophet of God.
No prophet of God transgresses the teachings of God delivered by the previous prophet.
http://www.prophetmuhammed.org/Default.asp
Liberate starts here:
Tell us when sahih Bukhari and sahih muslim started their hadith collection how long after the death of Mohammed and indeed the completion of the koran did they start their collection? who started the chain of transmission and the science of hadith?
Liberate, for the love of God, read the links I'm posting so you can get those questions ANSWERED:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith ... ences.html
"Who started the chain of transmission and science of hadith?" Bro, just read the above two links and you'll know everything you ever wanted to know about hadith and how the classification uses the most rigorous test of authenticity available. Compare how the Bible was transmitted to how the weakest of hadiths is authenticated and you decide who better preserved the Message.
Thats just it the EVIDENCE FROM ISLAM specifically say that Mohammed was not around to forsee the collation of the koran, the manner in which Mohammed obtained his revelations are dubious to begin with a fabrication at best and demonic at worst, no previous prophet obtained revelation by making camel sounds, hearing bells, and making bee buzzing sounds (and yes I do have the hadiths to back this up).
Bring these hadiths and let's examine their authenticity then.
Wait a minute isn't this religion suppose to be simple enough a child is able to understand?
what happens when several scholars who have memorised the quran conflict in interpretation what do you do then?
please don't refer me to a link just answer the question in your own words.
Yes, the theology of Islam is very simple, but when we get into some matters of jurisprudence and determining what is forbidden or permitted, it requires someone with an EXTENSIVE knowledge of the Qur'an and hadith. Not someone who just flips open a book and finds one hadith to back their points. There are exceptions, there are central rules that stand for related matters, there are SO MANY things to take into account in jurisprudential matters.
Things like "is my ablution gone if I do this, or if this happened" Please read the links they are great. Learn about Islam from the inside, not from the outside.
When several scholars come into conflict they do something called "Ijtihad" where they have to extend their deductive abilities to find central roots in a verse or hadith about the nature of why something should be permitted or forbidden. That's where you get your four sunni schools of thought. It doesn't matter which one you follow since they're very similar and have all reached their verdicts using "ijtihad".
A sunni school of thought is called a madhab.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/masud/ISLA ... adhhab.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/masud/ISLA ... abstlk.htm
and this is why it's important to rely on people with more knowledge than you,
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/masud/ISLAM/nuh/studyh.htm
Sources please.
What did you want to know here?
If you chose to conduct a conversation by simply saying go read this muslim apologist website, you do realise there are also counter arguments against your websites, I would like to know what you know about islam and how you justify it, I have read your links and I have also read links that counter what your links say, I am trying a different alternative, anyody can create a website and claim whatever they want I want you to apply simple logic based on the religious scripture we have.
Ok sure, but I prefer to do both.
And listen bro, PLEASE don’t think that just because some Christian site has a "rebuttal" to a Muslim site that the matter is settled and the two opinions knock each other out. PLEASE read the links I post because they are reliable, and actually, they are arranged to clear the misconceptions of the Christian rebuttals, there's often no need to rebut the Christian allegations because so often they're based on such faulty premises, a poor understanding of classical Arabic. Did you seriously read all the links I posted? Be honest.
I have noticed you spout about unitarians, lets reason this out so the early unitarians believed in the mosaic law, like the jews so why isn't the muslim practicing mosaic law?
For the same reason that Moses (pbuh) didn't practice the same "laws" as Noah or Abraham (but instead had many more). Muhammad (pbuh) came with the final sets of guidelines for mankind. In fact, how dissimilar do you think Muslim worship is from the original Mosaic laws. Do you think there's any contradictions, or just additional acts of worship?
Where is your evidence that the arabian peninsula was full of these Unitarians
Read the book I suggested as well as the story of the early Muslim dealings with the Christians in Arabia. They ALL accepted Islam almost immediately because they realized how closely it fit with Jesus (pbuh) true teachings, which they had guarded.
the unitarians simply did not have any religious creed and denied the virgin birth of Jesus (bear that in mind the next time you mention unitarian followers of Jesus),
Bro that's not true. I'm not talking about the Unitarians of today, whatever they believe, but the EARLY Unitarians, the true followers of Jesus (pbuh), not those that call themselves Unitarians today. Please read my book to find out more, there's several chapters about the Unitarians with sources.
I have noticed how you reiterate about these phantom unitarians that followed the teachings of Jesus, where were they? a few sentences please, don't refer me to a link just answer the question.
Christendome had always been divided on the issue of the divinity of Jesus (pbuh) and this was represented by the Trinitarian and Unitarian movements. The Trinitarians were concentrated in the areas of Europe and the Northern M.E. while the Unitarians were in Northern Africa and Southern and Central M.E. Christian history is rife with their debates and the Trinitarian executions of "heretic" Unitarians for denying the divinity of Christ. Of course, all you would hear is that a group of "heretic" Christians were rightfully being executed. Anyway, the Unitarians continued to be a dominant group in Christianity even through the Council of Nicaea but later began to be smothered militarily and had to worship less overtly. This was the case up until the revelation of the Qur'an.
There's like 200 pages about all this in the book. I really think you should get it because one paragraph won't teach you enough.
The christian has no hold on what the jews or anybody choses to believe, since you obviously do not understand christianity I wouldn't expect you to know why christians no longer follow mosaic law.
Actually I've heard the rationale. I just don't agree that Jesus (pbuh) ever abrogated the Mosaic Laws as he himself lived by them and told his followers to retain them.
I fail to see what your response has to do with my question, notice how you suddenly claimed it answered my previous post of shifts from first to third person, which is not even the question I was asking, please focus on the question.
Ok please repost your question in your next post. Sorry about that.
I asked you to give me a prophecy from the koran (not hadith), if I wanted to get a link for the prophecies I could have done it myself, I asked you to give me the prophecies for a reason, you see the prophecies are not that many I suspect you can count them on one hand, and I wanted you to show us those prophecies for discussion, not refer me to a website link.
BTW I could show you a link that shows your roman defeat of the byzantines is not a prophecy. Please give me another prophecy from your koran, don't give me link just print the sura and the historical prophecy.
Bro please read my links.
They're so long, do you think I could summarize them adequately in a post? Also, as I said, read my links, THEN read your rebuttals, then decide for yourself. Don't falsely comfort yourself by saying "well 'my team' rebutted them so we're safe". Also, one of the links I posted is a rebuttal to a rebuttal. They are worth reading if you sincerely want to learn instead of just being misguided by people you think are trying to help you.
Notice how you switch your tone first you were about to defend the hadith that flies have antidote and poison under their wing pouches but now you say it's figurative? It is figurative in what way?, please elaborate there is no need to refer me to a website, just elaborate it here.
I told you, I'm not going to claim it's a false hadith just because I'm not sure about it, nor will I attempt to attest to its pure biological accuracy if I'm not sure that's what the Prophet meant by it.
All I can tell you is that the discovery of those antibodies in the wing pouches is very impressive, since the hadith refers to dipping the other wing of the fly should the first touch food, or something like that.
'one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease"
this sounds very figurative to me, and many of the hadiths regarding prophecies were figurative.
You do realise this could have been plagiarised from christianity?
Well if you want to live your life by what could have been done, I don't suggest it, but you can go ahead. That's just like saying Jesus (pbuh) plagiarized Moses.
I suggest you do not refer to that website to back up your view that is the same website the authors claim Mohammed was in perfect health throughout his life, while a hadith narrated by Aisha says no one was as sick as the prophet.
It's a good website, man. And which hadith are you talking about? Bring it here so we can look at its authenticity.
With all that Islam has brought and how it contradicts Judaism and Christianity on central points and even prophetic stories, you still think Islam is just a copy? People never seem to make up their mind.
Read this, this is great:
http://www.ymofmd.com/books/prophethood ... _chang.htm
How do you determine what is revelation from God and what is revelation from the devil, if you want to claim your religion holds the true message and all others have been corrupted with no archaelogical backup of your statements of any kind, why should anybody believe you?
I don't first need to the archeological evidence to know that the previous scriptures were distorted, I believe that to be true because God revealed that in the Qur'an. If you want to understand Islam you have to first research how miraculous the Qur'an is. This is key. Otherwise you will always think that Islam is just like any other religion or that it doesn't bring proof that it was divinely revealed. I'm telling you, learn about the Qur'an.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/
But if you want some historical accounts of corruptions to ease your mind and give you a solid idea of how the scenario took place, read the book I was suggesting.
We have finally made some progress in our discussion, now ask yourself why Mohammed asked Zaid, the final collector of the koran to study the book of the people of the book.
Probably to note how different some of the stories are. Just look at the story of Abraham and the sacrifice of Ishmael for example.
For example, scroll down to the Muslim version of the story of Abraham:
http://www.al-sunnah.com/muhammad_in_the_bible.htm
http://www.mostmerciful.com/deception.htm
Ever wonder how a story revealed in the Qur'an is more accurate than the Judaic version?
I suggest you read your hadiths Mohammed had conducted raids against the pagan businessmen some 70+ times without retaliation, they had had enough, and had come to bring him to justice.
My first question was going to be, where did you read that, but that's not as important as this one:
Liberate, if you believe in God, which of His commands would you NOT obeyed should He command them of you?
If you don't believe in God, or that God sent a Messenger, you subsequently won't believe anything that the Messenger was commanded to do was from God. It's like a vicious cycle.
The creator has already said there is no other way to go but by Jesus the buck stops with Him
Just explain to me one thing. How do you know this is what the Creator said? What proof do you have that God Almighty said this? On what do you base this belief?
we have a sinless Messiah acknowledged as sinless even by your Koran
True
while your prophet stole, killed and enslaved jewish and christian women, to his credit he says he does not know what is going to happen to him when he dies
Not true. No Messenger or Prophet of God will enter the Hell fire.
Peace bro,
By the way, Liberate, I distinguish you among the other Christians in this forum. I just feel that you think more critically than anyone else and that you should pursue this. May God Guide you.
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Liberate
- Preacher
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Please specify how this relates to chronology it simply states a large part of the koran maybe lost, how do you get that the large part implies chronology
First of all, did you read the other hadiths I gave you in the links? Second of all, yes, in the hypothetical situation posed in the hadith, the fear was that so many Muslims would die that there would not be enough full memorizers to verify its transmission. (If you read about what the most authenticated form of transmission is, you'd know how many need to authenticate it and from however many different areas and so on)
Tell us when sahih Bukhari and sahih muslim started their hadith collection how long after the death of Mohammed and indeed the completion of the koran did they start their collection? who started the chain of transmission and the science of hadith?
Liberate, for the love of God, read the links I'm posting so you can get those questions ANSWERED:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith ... ences.html
"Who started the chain of transmission and science of hadith?" Pal, just read the above two links and you'll know everything you ever wanted to know about hadith and how it is the most rigorous test of authenticity available. Compare how the Bible was transmitted to how the weakest of hadiths is authenticated and you decide who better preserved the Message.
It seems you misunderstood my question entirely I was trying to show you how your chain of transmission was never utilised for the koran, and that hadith never implied chronology as you keep on insisting. Here is my hadith quote again:
Bukhari 6 201 (Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari: who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost {Please specify how this relates to chronology it simply states a large part of the koran maybe lost, how do you get that the large part implies chronology?] ), unless you collect it.
Mohammed died in 632AD or 11 years after the hejirah, the battle of Yamama takes place a year later in 633AD or 12 years after the hejira. From the links you gave me it states:
"The first one to utilise the isnâd (chain of reporters) was Ibn Shihab al-Zuhrî" (d. 124)."
Notice he died 124 years after the hejira or 113 years after Mohammed, how can you claim a certain number of people have to be around to verify the transmission of the koran and that the hadith only refers to chronology, when the first person to practice the verification of chains of reporters wasn't even born yet.
Thats just it the EVIDENCE FROM ISLAM specifically say that Mohammed was not around to forsee the collation of the koran, the manner in which Mohammed obtained his revelations are dubious to begin with a fabrication at best and demonic at worst, no previous prophet obtained revelation by making camel sounds, hearing bells, and making bee buzzing sounds (and yes I do have the hadiths to back this up).
Bring these hadiths and let's examine their authenticity then.
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 1, Number 2:
Narrated 'Aisha: (the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah's Apostle "O Allah's Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?" Allah's Apostle replied, "Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and
then this state passes ' off after I have grasped what is inspired.
Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says." 'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet being inspired Divinely on a very cold day and noticed the Sweat dropping from his forehead (as the Inspiration was over).
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:
Narrated 'Aisha: Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely.
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 6, Book 61, Number 508:
Narrated Safwan bin Ya'la bin Umaiya: Ya'la used to say, "I wish I could see Allah's Apostle at the time he is being inspired Divinely." When the Prophet was at Al-Ja'rana and was shaded by a garment hanging over him and some of his companions were with him, a man perfumed with scent came and said, "O Allah's Apostle!
What is your opinion regarding a man who assumes Ihram and puts on a cloak after perfuming his body with scent?" The Prophet waited for a while, and then the Divine Inspiration descended upon him. 'Umar pointed out to Ya'la, telling him to come. Ya'la came and pushed his head (underneath the screen which was covering the Prophet ) and behold! The Prophet's face was red and he kept on breathing heavily for
a while and then he was relieved..."
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 54, Number 461:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: that he heard the Prophet saying, "The Divine Inspiration was delayed for a short period but suddenly, as I was walking. I heard a voice in the sky, and when I looked up towards the sky, to my surprise, I saw
the angel who had come to me in the Hira Cave, and he was sitting on a chair in between the sky and the earth. I was so frightened by him that I fell on the ground and came to my family and said (to them), 'Cover me! (with a blanket), cover me!' Then Allah sent the Revelation: "O, You wrapped up (In a blanket)! (Arise and warn! And your Lord magnify And keep pure your garments, And desert the idols." (74.1-5)
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 5, Book 58, Number 170:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When the Ka'ba was rebuilt, the Prophet and 'Abbas went to carry stones. 'Abbas said to the Prophet "(Take off and) put your waist sheet over
your neck so that the stones may not hurt you." (But as soon as he took off his waist sheet) he fell unconscious on the ground with both his eyes towards the sky. When he came to his senses, he said, "My waist sheet! My waist sheet!" Then he tied his waist sheet (round his waist).
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 1, Number 4:
Narrated Said bin Jubair:
Ibn 'Abbas in the explanation of the Statement of Allah. 'Move not your tongue concerning (the Quran) to make haste therewith." (75.16) Said "Allah's Apostle used to bear the revelation with great trouble and used to move his lips (quickly) with the Inspiration."...
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 3, Book 27, Number 17:
...So, Allah inspired the Prophet divinely and he was screened by a place of cloth. I wished to see the Prophet being divinely inspired. 'Umar said to me, 'Come! Will you be pleased to look at the Prophet while Allah is inspiring him?'
I replied in the affirmative. 'Umar lifted one corner of the cloth and I looked at the Prophet who was snoring. (The sub-narrator thought that he said: The snoring was like that of a camel). When that state was over, the Prophet...
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 2, Book 24, Number 544:
...Then we noticed that he was being inspired divinely. Then the Prophet wiped off his sweat...
Bear in mind there is no record of a previous prophet undergoing these symptoms when obtaining messages from God, this looks like someone who is spiritually and physically unwell.
Sources please.
What did you want to know here?
This
Put yourself in the jew or christian shoes for a second and imagine how ridiculous your stance is that the pagan arabs really had the true message of God
Because people have dealt with these issues thoroughly and academically.
I have noticed you spout about unitarians, lets reason this out so the early unitarians believed in the mosaic law, like the jews so why isn't the muslim practicing mosaic law?
For the same reason that Moses (pbuh) didn't practice the same "laws" as Noah or Abraham (but instead had many more). Muhammad (pbuh) came with the final sets of guidelines for mankind. In fact, how dissimilar do you think Muslim worship is from the original Mosaic laws. Do you think there's any contradictions, or just additional acts of worship?
What 'laws' did Noah practice that was dissimilar to Araham, do you realise the convenant was to Abraham's and his seed, that progeny was to be seperated out and made as a shining light to the world, does your koran even highlight why the Israelites had to be freed from Egypt?
Try and see the logical fallacy in your reasoning here, Noah had some 'laws' and Abraham had a set of additional 'laws' which in your opinion included circumnavigating the ka'ba and the hajj pilgrimage, then along comes Moses but he didn't circumnavigate the ka'ba or do the hajj pilgrimage (ask yourself why) then along comes Mohammed to bring everybody back to circumnavigating the ka'ba and the hajj pilgrimage which Jesus and all the other prophets after Moses did and their followers corrupted it with no archaelogical evidence for this stance.
Where is your evidence that the arabian peninsula was full of these Unitarians
Read the book I suggested as well as the story of the early Muslim dealings with the Christians in Arabia. They ALL accepted Islam almost immediately because they realized how closely it fit with Jesus (pbuh) true teachings, which they had guarded.
Unitarianism:
Sometimes called antitrinitarianism, is to be found in the Arian controversy of the early fourth century when Arius, presbyter in the church at Alexandria, set forth the system of thought which bears his name. He denied the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity and asserted that there was a time when God was not the Father and Jesus Christ was not the Son. Because God foresaw the merit of Jesus the man, Christ was accorded a kind of divinity, but he was never of the same substance as the Father although he is worthy of worship. This early and rather high form of Unitarianism was condemned by the Council of Nicaea in 325 and by the Council of Constantinople in 381."
So the early unitarians in the arabian peninsula didn't worship Jesus?
I find your claim about unitarians just as convenient as your claim that the pagan idol worshippers had the true message of God.
The christian has no hold on what the jews or anybody choses to believe, since you obviously do not understand christianity I wouldn't expect you to know why christians no longer follow mosaic law.
Actually I've heard the rationale. I just don't agree that Jesus (pbuh) ever abrogated the Mosaic Laws as he himself lived by them and told his followers to retain them.
what about His comments that "I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh to the Father but by Me"?
I fail to see what your response has to do with my question, notice how you suddenly claimed it answered my previous post of shifts from first to third person, which is not even the question I was asking, please focus on the question.
Ok please repost your question in your next post. Sorry about that.
when do you differentiate who is allah and who is mohammed?
sura 49:1 Believers, do not behave presumptuously in the presence of God and His Apostle. Have fear of God: God hears all and knows all. Believers, do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor shout aloud when speaking to him as you do to one another....
I am asking you to apply some logical sense to this sura I am not asking you to refer me to an islamic apologist website with mass produced irrelevant material, look at the above sura and ask yourself if someone was being asked a lot of questions and he just wanted to be left alone, doesn't it look like he just made it up?. Think, this is for all mankind what on earth does this command about not raising your voice above the voice of the prophet have to do with a message for all mankind?
I asked you to give me a prophecy from the koran (not hadith), if I wanted to get a link for the prophecies I could have done it myself, I asked you to give me the prophecies for a reason, you see the prophecies are not that many I suspect you can count them on one hand, and I wanted you to show us those prophecies for discussion, not refer me to a website link.
BTW I could show you a link that shows your roman defeat of the byzantines is not a prophecy. Please give me another prophecy from your koran, don't give me link just print the sura and the historical prophecy.
They're so long, do you think I could summarize them adequately in a post? Also, as I said, read my links, THEN read your rebuttals, then decide for yourself. Don't falsely comfort yourself by saying "well 'my team' rebutted them so we're safe". Also, one of the links I posted is a rebuttal to a rebuttal. They are worth reading if you sincerely want to learn instead of just being misguided by people you think are trying to help you.
This is not a case of wallowing in defeat or victory, it seems you are being evasive over what I asked, let me get straight to the point, it is good that you mention it is a major prophecy (lets face it thats the only major prophecy in your koran), think about it the message for all mankind's major prophecy has a prediciton that the romans would defeat the byzantines, done over a bet... it's like me having a camp fire discussion and saying " Bush will defeat saddam in about 3 months, who wants to bet with me". I hope you are aware that Yusuf Ali says Mohammed's "short time" meant it would occur between 3 to 9 years, when in fact the victory occurred some 14 years later.
How exactly does this help us identify that this is from God what about events in the next 1400 years, is this the best prediction that the islamic god could do in his message to all mankind, a prediction outcome that is too close to the event?
Notice how you switch your tone first you were about to defend the hadith that flies have antidote and poison under their wing pouches but now you say it's figurative? It is figurative in what way?, please elaborate there is no need to refer me to a website, just elaborate it here.
I told you, I'm not going to claim it's a false hadith just because I'm not sure about it, nor will I attempt to attest to its pure biological accuracy if I'm not sure that's what the Prophet meant by it.
All I can tell you is that the discovery of those antibodies in the wing pouches is very impressive, since the hadith refers to dipping the other wing of the fly should the first touch food, or something like that.
'one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease"
this sounds very figurative to me, and many of the hadiths regarding prophecies were figurative.
"Sa`id ibn Khalid said: I went in to see Abu Salama. He brought us some butter and date pastry. A fly fell into the dish. Abu Salama began to submerge it (yamquluhu) with his finger. I said, "Uncle! What are you doing?"
He said: "Truly, Abu Sa`id al-Khudri told me that the Messenger of Allah said, 'In one of the fly's two wings there is poison and in another, its antidote. If it falls into food, submerge it in it; for it sends the poison first and keeps the cure last.'"
Do you think this early muslims thought it was figurative?
I suggest you do not refer to that website to back up your view that is the same website the authors claim Mohammed was in perfect health throughout his life, while a hadith narrated by Aisha says no one was as sick as the prophet.
It's a good website, man. And which hadith are you talking about? Bring it here so we can look at its authenticity.
I quote from www.prophetmuhammed.org
"Historical, rational or medical grounds cannot substantiate the theory of Epilepsy or any such ailment, because the Prophet (sal) was of exceptional mental/physical health till his death"
Bukhari 7 549 "I never saw anybody suffering so much from sickness as Allah's Apostle"
You can verify if you want that I didn't take this out of context.
How do you determine what is revelation from God and what is revelation from the devil, if you want to claim your religion holds the true message and all others have been corrupted with no archaelogical backup of your statements of any kind, why should anybody believe you?
I don't first need to the archeological evidence to know that the previous scriptures were distorted, I believe that to be true because God revealed that in the Qur'an.
I see you believe the quran says the previous revelations were distorted to justify it's existence?
show us those verses in the quran that say the previous revelations were distorted, notice I asked for the koran and not the hadith, no need for links the verses should suffice.
If you want to understand Islam you have to first research how miraculous the Qur'an is.
How miraculous is it really?
You have already acknowledged Mohammed had access to jewish scriptures and he told Zaid to study the book of the jews, Mohammed didn't write the koran, Zaid and the scribes that he and uthman hired did, how do we know they simply didn't plagiarise already existent material, rhyming poems and claim it is divine, what exactly is the miracle of having text with multiples of 19?
This is key. Otherwise you will always think that Islam is just like any other religion or that it doesn't bring proof that it was divinely revealed. I'm telling you, learn about the Qur'an.
How does islam differ from any other religion that say do good works, and legalism to the point of being obsessively compulsive?
We have finally made some progress in our discussion, now ask yourself why Mohammed asked Zaid, the final collector of the koran to study the book of the people of the book.
Probably to note how different some of the stories are. Just look at the story of Abraham and the sacrifice of Ishmael for example.
For example, scroll down to the Muslim version of the story of Abraham:
http://www.al-sunnah.com/muhammad_in_the_bible.htm
http://www.mostmerciful.com/deception.htm
Ever wonder how a story revealed in the Qur'an is more accurate than the Judaic version?
Is that so?
Please let us look at the story of Abraham and the alledged sacrifice of Ishmael in your koran you said the koran is more accurate tell me if it is so accurate why doesn't it mention Ishmael by name as the sacrifice?
why doesn't it even mention Hagar the mother of the arabs during the entire koran, you would have thought someone so pre eminent as the mother of the arabs and the mother of Ishmael the alledged sacrifical son would at least get a mention in the holy text, a reference at least.
You wouldn't know Abraham had another wife unless you read the bible, you wouldn't know who Ishmael's mother was unless you read the bible, you wouldn't know that Abraham's name was not always Abraham unless you read the bible.
These observations are concurrent with someone who heard stories from the jews and simply incorporated it into a new religion. It would explain why there is no chronology in the koran, the stories are simply a plethora of bastardised biblical scripture.
If your koran's description of the sacrifice is so accurate tell me why is there a split school of thought within islam on who the sacrificial son was? that many have to resort to the bible to remotely justify their claim that it was Ishmael.
I suggest you read your hadiths Mohammed had conducted raids against the pagan businessmen some 70+ times without retaliation, they had had enough, and had come to bring him to justice.
My first question was going to be, where did you read that,
All read from the sunnah, Bukhari, muslim, Ishaq, Tabari all islamic sources, I read how Mohammed obtained followers by promising them quraish booty and paradise if they died following him in stealing booty from honest businessmen and enslaving their women, how he attacked quraish caravans repeatedly, how his followers killed and stole booty in the sacred month of rahab (incidentally it is very revealing on sura 9:5, have you ever wondered why God would ask his followers to respect a pagan festival such as rahab?)
Liberate, if you believe in God, which of His commands would you NOT obeyed should He command them of you?
If the commandment contradict themselves I have to quadruple check from what I know that I indeed am hearing from God.
If you don't believe in God, or that God sent a Messenger, you subsequently won't believe anything that the Messenger was commanded to do was from God. It's like a vicious cycle.
The creator has already said there is no other way to go but by Jesus the buck stops with Him
And if you don't believe God sent Jesus to die for our sins, you put yourself back in the spiritual bonds of legalism.
Just explain to me one thing. How do you know this is what the Creator said? What proof do you have that God Almighty said this? On what do you base this belief?
Very simple, I look at the prophecies in the previous revelations (old testament) I look at them fulfilled in the new testament, I see a God with the same message of deliverance for his creation. I don't see christianity claiming the jews corrupted their books but accept and see the revelation and it's spiritual implications personified in Jesus, islam on the other hand needs to discredit and insult the intelligence of the followers of the same God who sent both previous revelations to justify it's existance.
we have a sinless Messiah acknowledged as sinless even by your Koran
True
while your prophet stole, killed and enslaved jewish and christian women, to his credit he says he does not know what is going to happen to him when he dies
Not true. No Messenger or Prophet of God will enter the Hell fire.
Bukhari vol 5 266
"By Allah, though I am the apostle of Allah, yet I do not know what Allah will do to me"
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humble_guest
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I was trying to show you how your chain of transmission was never utilised for the koran
Actually, the Qur'an transmission is the most authentic transmission if you're comparing it to hadith texts. Here, the hadith you posted is even discussed in these links:
http://www.iad.org/Quran/recording.html
http://www.answering-christianity.com/q ... y.html#Top
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/compilationbrief.html
http://www.iad.org/Quran/volume.html
http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/0005.htm
"The first one to utilise the isnâd (chain of reporters) was Ibn Shihab al-Zuhrî" (d. 124)."
Notice he died 124 years after the hejira or 113 years after Mohammed, how can you claim a certain number of people have to be around to verify the transmission of the koran and that the hadith only refers to chronology, when the first person to practice the verification of chains of reporters wasn't even born yet.
"Isnad" is the practice of saying "It was related to me by so and so son of so and so and so and so son of so and so and so and so son of so and so…all the way back to the Prophet."
The only thing that sentence is telling you is that this person was the first to start using this method to verify reports. His chain would have had 2 or at most 3 links.
During the lifetime of the Prophet (s.a.w) and after his death, his Companions (Sahabah) used to refer to him directly, when quoting his saying. The Successors (Tabi'un) followed suit; some of them used to quote the Prophet (s.a.w) through the Companions while others would omit the intermediate authority - such a Hadith was later known as mursal. It was found that the missing link between the Successor and the Prophet (s.a.w) might be one person, i.e. a Companion or two people, the extra person being an older Successor who heard the Hadith from the Companion. This is an example of how the need for the verification of each isnad arose. Imam Malik (d. 179) said,
" The first one to utilise the isnad was Ibn Shihab al Zuhri " [d. 124] 3
al Zuhri died in 124, that doesn't mean he started using isnad that late. Isnad began being used after the second generation of companions of the Prophet, since there was no need to ask Abu Bakr or Omar for a chain of transmitters leading to the Prophet.
With reference to the Qur'an, the Qur'an was mass memorized and transcribed, whereas a majority of the sayings of the Prophet and his actions were purposely not written down during his lifetime so that they would not be confused with the words of the Qur'an.
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 5, Book 58, Number 170:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When the Ka'ba was rebuilt, the Prophet and 'Abbas went to carry stones. 'Abbas said to the Prophet "(Take off and) put your waist sheet over your neck so that the stones may not hurt you." (But as soon as he took off his waist sheet) he fell unconscious on the ground with both his eyes towards the sky. When he came to his senses, he said, "My waist sheet! My waist sheet!" Then he tied his waist sheet (round his waist).
This is probably the only hadith that needs explanation, this was not during revelation, but when his waist sheet had fallen and part of his stomach or back were exposed (which are considered nakedness if they are below the naval, and since he is the Prophet, his nakedness was protected from being seen so that is why he had to quickly recover his waist sheet. They were carrying large rocks in their waist sheets and he was shifting the tie of the sheet around when he fell.
Bear in mind there is no record of a previous prophet undergoing these symptoms when obtaining messages from God, this looks like someone who is spiritually and physically unwell.
And of whom would the records be? Jesus (pbuh) was born with knowledge of the Scripture and the revelations to Moses (pbuh) came when he was alone and often directly written.
The direct revelation of the Qur'an had strong physical effects on the Prophet and you'll also read hadiths that his face would also turn red during revelation.
What 'laws' did Noah practice that was dissimilar to Araham, do you realise the convenant was to Abraham's and his seed, that progeny was to be seperated out and made as a shining light to the world, does your koran even highlight why the Israelites had to be freed from Egypt?
Yes the Qur'an speaks much about the Children of Israel. They were favored by God but then broke their covenant.
We did deliver aforetime the Children of Israel from humiliating Punishment,
Inflicted by Pharaoh, for he was arrogant (even) among inordinate transgressors.
And We chose them aforetime above the nations, knowingly, (44:30-32)
Noah had some 'laws' and Abraham had a set of additional 'laws']/quote]
I didn't mean laws, I meant "rites of worship". It's clear that Noah and Abraham (pbut) did not necessarily worship in the same exact way as Moses (pbuh). Moses (pbuh) had much more revealed to him.which in your opinion included circumnavigating the ka'ba and the hajj pilgrimage, then along comes Moses but he didn't circumnavigate the ka'ba or do the hajj pilgrimage (ask yourself why)
The Hajj is a reenactment of the events in which Abraham, Ishmael, and Hajar participated. They weren't organized "religious" rites for them in terms of having to perform them as a matter of worship.then along comes Mohammed to bring everybody back to circumnavigating the ka'ba and the hajj pilgrimage which Jesus and all the other prophets after Moses did and their followers corrupted it with no archaelogical evidence for this stance.
Who do you think built the Kaaba?So the early unitarians in the arabian peninsula didn't worship Jesus?
I find your claim about unitarians just as convenient as your claim that the pagan idol worshippers had the true message of God.
No the early Unitarians didn't worship Jesus. And I didn't say that the pagan idol worshippers had the true message of God, I said they emulated the progeny of Ishmael in observing certain rites like circumnavigating the Kaaba and NOT they had invented the acts.what about His comments that "I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh to the Father but by Me"?
How can you be sure that Jesus (pbuh) said that? Also, how are you sure that he didn't live his life according to the Mosaic laws?when do you differentiate who is allah and who is mohammed?
By default, God is speaking, except when it says something like "Say, (O Muhammad)"I am asking you to apply some logical sense to this sura I am not asking you to refer me to an islamic apologist website with mass produced irrelevant material, look at the above sura and ask yourself if someone was being asked a lot of questions and he just wanted to be left alone, doesn't it look like he just made it up?. Think, this is for all mankind what on earth does this command about not raising your voice above the voice of the prophet have to do with a message for all mankind?
As I said, some revelations were specific to their time. Obviously this is not something anyone can or is supposed to observe today because the Prophet (pbuh) passed away.This is not a case of wallowing in defeat or victory, it seems you are being evasive over what I asked, let me get straight to the point, it is good that you mention it is a major prophecy (lets face it thats the only major prophecy in your koran), think about it the message for all mankind's major prophecy has a prediciton that the romans would defeat the byzantines, done over a bet... it's like me having a camp fire discussion and saying " Bush will defeat saddam in about 3 months, who wants to bet with me". I hope you are aware that Yusuf Ali says Mohammed's "short time" meant it would occur between 3 to 9 years, when in fact the victory occurred some 14 years later.
You didn't read the website. There are so many intricacies to the Prophecies. One of them is it identifies the area of the Dead Sea as the lowest part of the land, which it is. Another is that the prophecy says that the Romans will be victorious when they had just been heavily defeated by the Persians.How exactly does this help us identify that this is from God what about events in the next 1400 years, is this the best prediction that the islamic god could do in his message to all mankind, a prediction outcome that is too close to the event?
Oh I see. Well you're only looking at Prophecies to determine what is and isn't from God. Look at the rest of the Qur'an apart from its prophecies, it's a miraculous revelation even if it contained no prophecies, that's how you know it is from God.Do you think this early muslims thought it was figurative?
No, and many people don't. I'd be interested to know if he got sick or died though."Historical, rational or medical grounds cannot substantiate the theory of Epilepsy or any such ailment, because the Prophet (sal) was of exceptional mental/physical health till his death"
This is true, the Prophet didn't have any congenital diseases or illnesses.Bukhari 7 549 "I never saw anybody suffering so much from sickness as Allah's Apostle"
Yes the Prophet didn't have any diseases, but that doesn't mean he wasn’t afflicted by colds or fevers.
Narrated Abdullah:
I visited the Prophet during his ailments and he was suffering from a high fever. I said, "You have a high fever. Is it because you will have a double reward for it?" He said, "Yes, for no Muslim is afflicted with any harm but that Allah will remove his sins as the leaves of a tree fall down."I see you believe the quran says the previous revelations were distorted to justify it's existence?
Please understand, the Qur'an doesn't even need to say that the other scriptures were distorted to justify its existence. None of the other Scriptures were historically preserved like the Qur'an, none carry with them as many signs that they are the preserved word of God, and I believe in the Qur'an not only because it says that the other scriptures were corrupted but because of the way it was revealed and its miracles and the Messenger of God to which it was revealed.show us those verses in the quran that say the previous revelations were distorted, notice I asked for the koran and not the hadith, no need for links the verses should suffice.
Here's a few:
Have you any hope that they will be true to you when a party of them used to listen to the word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it, knowingly? (2:75)
"But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)." (5:13)
O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment. (5:41)You have already acknowledged Mohammed had access to jewish scriptures and he told Zaid to study the book of the jews, Mohammed didn't write the koran, Zaid and the scribes that he and uthman hired did, how do we know they simply didn't plagiarise already existent material, rhyming poems and claim it is divine, what exactly is the miracle of having text with multiples of 19?
First of all, I don't really go by numerological claims and the number 19 miracle, I'm not too sure about the person who tried to do that. But this is an excellent "mathematical miracle":
http://fakir60.tripod.com/occurence_of_ ... _the_q.htm
Second of all, there are significant differences in Prophetic stories, David and Solomon are named as Prophets, and instances of this nature.
Thirdly, it's a grievous mistake to think that the Qur'an is just a rhyming poem. You do realize that nobody has been able to emulate the Qur'an to this day? There are institutes in Britain dedicated to the study of the Qur'an and to its emulation but who have admittedly had no luck in its duplication. You should learn more about the language of the Qur'an and why it is the direct word of God.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Miracle/
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Q_Studies/
Plus, why are you speaking in such vague terms, where do you think the Qur'an is plagiarized and when did it happen? Why didn't the Jews and Christians of Arabia even assert this, wouldn't you think they'd be the first to make this claim? Also, you really don't have a grasp of what it means for hundreds of people to have memorized the Qur'an by heart and then to try to fit in the scenario where Zaid just makes up stories in his own language and how this just flies by. What "new things" do you allege Zaid put in which had not be revealed to Muhammad (pbuh). Are you saying you believe the Qur'an was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) but that Zaid corrupted it? Or are you saying that one thing was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) but that Zaid put something else in? If so, what exactly are you claiming was changed in the message, or are you just idly conjecturing?
Here read this and then tell me what you think:
http://www.ymofmd.com/books/prophethood ... _intro.htmHow does islam differ from any other religion that say do good works, and legalism to the point of being obsessively compulsive?
Look at my signature. The key is belief. Good works will bring you closer to God after you have believe in Him. Second of all, the difference is that Islam is from God, while other religions were written by men. Their legalisms and rules are not divine, no matter how intricate they may be. All the laws and rites of worship in Islam are the way that God has revealed to mankind that mankind should live, to institute the rule of God in their lives and society because it is better for them, if they only knew.Please let us look at the story of Abraham and the alledged sacrifice of Ishmael in your koran you said the koran is more accurate tell me if it is so accurate why doesn't it mention Ishmael by name as the sacrifice?
why doesn't it even mention Hagar the mother of the arabs during the entire Koran
Read the story, man, the Prophet (pbuh) explains the word of God as they are revealed:
http://anwary-islam.com/prophet-story/ishmael.htm
Take a look at this, also:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... ifice.html
Plus, if the second son is Isaac, who besides Ishmael is the first son?
"O my Lord! Grant me a righteous (son)!"
So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.
Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if God so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"
So when they had both submitted their wills (to God), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
We called out to him "O Abraham!
"Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
For this was obviously a trial –
And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:
"Peace and salutation to Abraham!"
Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
For he was one of our believing Servants.
And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a prophet, - one of the Righteous. (37:100-112)
http://jews-for-allah.org/the-Jewish-Bible/isaac.htmlyou would have thought someone so pre eminent as the mother of the arabs and the mother of Ishmael the alledged sacrifical son would at least get a mention in the holy text, a reference at least.
So what are you saying? You're angry that Hajar's name is not in the Qur'an? Why does that make you mad or perplex you?You wouldn't know Abraham had another wife unless you read the bible, you wouldn't know who Ishmael's mother was unless you read the bible, you wouldn't know that Abraham's name was not always Abraham unless you read the bible.
First of all, The Prophet's (pbuh) role was as an exegete. Second of all, yes of course, the Qur'an confirms what was revealed to the Jews and Christians, but it corrected it. That's exactly WHY so many Jews and Christians recognized that the Qur'an was from God.These observations are concurrent with someone who heard stories from the jews and simply incorporated it into a new religion. It would explain why there is no chronology in the Koran
If the Qur'an was from anyone besides God, they would have tried very hard to be meticulous about dates and times. The very fact that it is consistent and corrects the Biblical stories adds to this Truth. Also, the events of each story are in chronological order, the Qur'an itself does not follow a "Exodus-Present" chronology.
Read this and THEN tell me what you think:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/
and this
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... shape.htmlIf your koran's description of the sacrifice is so accurate tell me why is there a split school of thought within islam on who the sacrificial son was? that many have to resort to the bible to remotely justify their claim that it was Ishmael.
Bro, there is no split school of thought. All Muslim know that Ishmael was the son to be sacrificed. They acknowledge this every year after Hajj. Those Muslims were showing you with Bible quotes how the story of the Qur'an is even more plausible and accurate using the narrative and descriptions of the Bible. Please read them again.If the commandment contradict themselves I have to quadruple check from what I know that I indeed am hearing from God.
And when does that happen?I read how Mohammed obtained followers by promising them quraish booty and paradise if they died following him in stealing booty from honest businessmen and enslaving their women, how he attacked quraish caravans repeatedly, how his followers killed and stole booty in the sacred month of rahab (incidentally it is very revealing on sura 9:5, have you ever wondered why God would ask his followers to respect a pagan festival such as rahab?)
Ok, millions of followers by promising people booty? Honest businessmen who weren't trying to murder the Muslims and the Prophet (pbuh)? What an Orientalist account. If you want to believe that, that's up to you. When you don't believe that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was commanded by God, idle suspicion will always be lodged into your thinking. That's like feeling sorry for Pharoah and his armies when they were afflicted by God.
This is the real history:
http://www.prophetmuhammed.org/
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/
And Rajab:
http://www.kingstonmosque.org.uk/Islam/rajab.htm
http://www.ahya.org/amm/modules.php?nam ... &artid=157And if you don't believe God sent Jesus to die for our sins, you put yourself back in the spiritual bonds of legalism.
I only believe what was revealed by God, not what was written by men. God always brings signs to verify his word.Very simple, I look at the prophecies in the previous revelations (old testament) I look at them fulfilled in the new testament
And the Qur'an also verifies that Jesus (pbuh) is the Messiah.islam on the other hand needs to discredit and insult the intelligence of the followers of the same God who sent both previous revelations to justify it's existance.
God asks you to put your trust in Him alone, not the words of men.Bukhari vol 5 266
"By Allah, though I am the apostle of Allah, yet I do not know what Allah will do to me"
Commenting on the notion that some people believe that God owes them paradise for anything they've done or believed:
From Sahih Muslim:
Book 039, Number 6761:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There is none whose deeds alone would entitle him to get into Paradise. It was said to him: And, Allah's Messenger, not even you? Thereupon he said: Not even I, but that my Lord wraps me in Mercy.
Peace bro
Last edited by humble_guest on Wed Apr 14, 2004 07:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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humble_guest
- Preacher
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Sorry I double posted
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Liberate
- Preacher
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I was trying to show you how your chain of transmission was never utilised for the koran
Actually, the Qur'an transmission is the most authentic transmission if you're comparing it to hadith texts. Here, the hadith you posted is even discussed in these links:
http://www.iad.org/Quran/recording.html
From that website:
"His scribes used leather, parchments, leaves and tablets to write down the verses. These manuscripts were kept in the safe custody, and it is reported that in fact they were kept in the house of the Prophet. "
From Bukhari 6 201:
By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur'an. I said to both of them, 'How dare you do a thing which the Prophet (pbuh) has not done?' Abu Bakr said,
'By Allah it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started locating the Qur'anic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leafstalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart)
If the manuscripts were kept in a safe place in the prophet's house why would Zaid complain about the collection of the koran equivalent to moving mountains, if all he had to do was just go to the safe place in the prophet's house and get it.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/q ... y.html#Top
This is from this site regarding Bukhari 6 201
"The words of Zaid may raise some confusion: How can I do something which Allah's Apostle has not done? This doen't mean that the Qur'an was not written in the Prophet's time, but it means that that the Qur'anic was scattered and not collected into one volume. The Prophet (pbuh) didn't leave the complete Qur'an in a single volume for all the Ummah, because most of his companions had memorized it and some had their own copies"
There is a logical problem with this if some had their own copies why panick over gathering another copy to collate the koran, was Zaid so worried that he was scared of just getting another copy (surely it says the same thing as all the others) and using it, why would Abu Bakr ask Zaid to collect the koran if other people already had their own copies
If you decide to post these apologetic websites that gloss over the hadiths and contradict it, you lose credibility. I hope you have noticed that I have dealt with islamic material alone, I have not referred you to any website, can you not show me the same courtesy instead of referring me to a bunch of websites that contradict and romanticize your own hadiths.
What is the point of our discussion if all you do is point me to a mass page document of apologetic material and say 'read', have you noticed all I have done with you is apply our God given logic amidst your quran and sunnah, I was hoping for a discussion in your own words is that so hard?
Bear in mind there is no record of a previous prophet undergoing these symptoms when obtaining messages from God, this looks like someone who is spiritually and physically unwell.
And of whom would the records be? Jesus (pbuh) was born with knowledge of the Scripture and the revelations to Moses (pbuh) came when he was alone and often directly written.
The direct revelation of the Qur'an had strong physical effects on the Prophet and you'll also read hadiths that his face would also turn red during revelation.
How about Joshua, Samuel, David or any of the other authors of the 66 books in the bible, surely there would have been one occurence one mention of these fascinating symptoms whenever God brought a revelation to them?, the old testament does not shy from such issues it shows the good and the bad, it would have mentioned something as the prophets collapsing foaming at the mouth whenever they received a revelation from God.
The new testament says the Spirit of God is calm bear that in mind.
What 'laws' did Noah practice that was dissimilar to Araham, do you realise the convenant was to Abraham's and his seed, that progeny was to be seperated out and made as a shining light to the world, does your koran even highlight why the Israelites had to be freed from Egypt?
Yes the Qur'an speaks much about the Children of Israel. They were favored by God but then broke their covenant.
Would you like to elaborate on how they broke their convenant?
no links pls.
Noah had some 'laws' and Abraham had a set of additional 'laws']
I didn't mean laws, I meant "rites of worship". It's clear that Noah and Abraham (pbut) did not necessarily worship in the same exact way as Moses (pbuh). Moses (pbuh) had much more revealed to him.
which in your opinion included circumnavigating the ka'ba and the hajj pilgrimage, then along comes Moses but he didn't circumnavigate the ka'ba or do the hajj pilgrimage (ask yourself why)
The Hajj is a reenactment of the events in which Abraham, Ishmael, and Hajar participated.
Where is your evidence for this, is it a coincidence that the pagan arabs practiced these same rites circumnavigating the ka'ba kissing the ka'ba even to the point of cutting their hair, where is your evidence hagar participated in such a rite?
then along comes Mohammed to bring everybody back to circumnavigating the ka'ba and the hajj pilgrimage which Jesus and all the other prophets after Moses did and their followers corrupted it with no archaelogical evidence for this stance.
Who do you think built the Kaaba?
According to your hadiths, it was built by God with adam to conduct morning prayers, later destroyed and rebuilt by Abraham and Ishmael, ofcourse there is no archaelogical evidence for this or any other evidence other than islam, how about the alternative scenario of Mohammed practicing politics by trying to bribe the pagans into his new religion by claiming what they already practiced such as venerating the black stone was really done by the patriachs so they can continue doing it but do it now under his new religion, this sounds much more logical (and is what is agreed upon by many an islamuc scholar) than God built it with Adam for morning prayers.
So the early unitarians in the arabian peninsula didn't worship Jesus?
I find your claim about unitarians just as convenient as your claim that the pagan idol worshippers had the true message of God.
No the early Unitarians didn't worship Jesus.
So what did they think of Jesus, did they believe He was a Son of God, did they believe He was just another prophet? if they did so you do realise they longer qualify as christians, they might as well be jews, are you sure you are not confusing sects of judaism in the arabian peninsula as your unitarians?
How can you be sure that Jesus (pbuh) said that? Also, how are you sure that he didn't live his life according to the Mosaic laws?
I have the scripture that says He said that.
when do you differentiate who is allah and who is mohammed?
By default, God is speaking, except when it says something like "Say, (O Muhammad)"
Do you honestly think Mohammed would get his scribes together and tell them this is the revelation from allah I received this morning..." Say....". It is believed the say: in the koran was added and is not in the original arabic by many.
I am asking you to apply some logical sense to this sura I am not asking you to refer me to an islamic apologist website with mass produced irrelevant material, look at the above sura and ask yourself if someone was being asked a lot of questions and he just wanted to be left alone, doesn't it look like he just made it up?. Think, this is for all mankind what on earth does this command about not raising your voice above the voice of the prophet have to do with a message for all mankind?
As I said, some revelations were specific to their time. Obviously this is not something anyone can or is supposed to observe today because the Prophet (pbuh) passed away.
Then ask yourself why did Mohammed put it there and claim allah revealed this message to him as the final messenger, do you not see that t is eerily convenient that allah is giving in the whims of his prophet, there is no evidence of any previous message from the two previous revelations where God tells his prophet to put down in his holy text that He said no one should raise their voice above that of him, simple logic tells me there is a fine line between allah and mohammed.
This is not a case of wallowing in defeat or victory, it seems you are being evasive over what I asked, let me get straight to the point, it is good that you mention it is a major prophecy (lets face it thats the only major prophecy in your koran), think about it the message for all mankind's major prophecy has a prediciton that the romans would defeat the byzantines, done over a bet... it's like me having a camp fire discussion and saying " Bush will defeat saddam in about 3 months, who wants to bet with me". I hope you are aware that Yusuf Ali says Mohammed's "short time" meant it would occur between 3 to 9 years, when in fact the victory occurred some 14 years later.
You didn't read the website. There are so many intricacies to the Prophecies. One of them is it identifies the area of the Dead Sea as the lowest part of the land, which it is. Another is that the prophecy says that the Romans will be victorious when they had just been heavily defeated by the Persians.
Rest assured I read it, I also noticed it was some several pages of exergesis and links on the ONE prophecy, it looked like the writer was trying to shift focus that THIS IS THE ONLY MAJOR PROPHECY IN THE KORAN by writting chunks of irrelevant material about it a case of quantity to replace quality, If I tell you "Bush will defeat Saddam in 3 months and it takes over 12 months" have I successfully made a prophecy?
How exactly does this help us identify that this is from God what about events in the next 1400 years, is this the best prediction that the islamic god could do in his message to all mankind, a prediction outcome that is too close to the event?
Oh I see. Well you're only looking at Prophecies to determine what is and isn't from God.
Bear in mind God is omniscient He knows the beginning from the end, it is expected from an omniscient being to be able to predict the future.
Look at the rest of the Qur'an apart from its prophecies, it's a miraculous revelation even if it contained no prophecies, that's how you know it is from God.
I am sorry but I see no miraculous revelation when I read the quran, and hadiths, the contents in it are what I would expect to come out of the mind of a man, stories and events that surround his local neighbourhood in the arabian peninsula, obtaining respect from the Quraish and jews who were laughing at him and nothing else.
Do you think this early muslims thought it was figurative?
No, and many people don't. I'd be interested to know if he got sick or died though.
I am not here to make anybody look bad so I will not discuss this anymore.
"Historical, rational or medical grounds cannot substantiate the theory of Epilepsy or any such ailment, because the Prophet (sal) was of exceptional mental/physical health till his death"
This is true, the Prophet didn't have any congenital diseases or illnesses.
Bukhari 7 549 "I never saw anybody suffering so much from sickness as Allah's Apostle"
Yes the Prophet didn't have any diseases, but that doesn't mean he wasn’t afflicted by colds or fevers.
Narrated Abdullah:
I visited the Prophet during his ailments and he was suffering from a high fever. I said, "You have a high fever. Is it because you will have a double reward for it?" He said, "Yes, for no Muslim is afflicted with any harm but that Allah will remove his sins as the leaves of a tree fall down."
Please read again what you have just said in light of the hadith I posted!.
show us those verses in the quran that say the previous revelations were distorted, notice I asked for the koran and not the hadith, no need for links the verses should suffice.
Here's a few:
Have you any hope that they will be true to you when a party of them used to listen to the word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it, knowingly? (2:75)
"But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)." (5:13)
Many great islamic scholars do not believe the bible was corrupted:
Ali al-Tabari (died 855) accepted the Gospel texts
Amr al-Ghakhiz (869) " " " "
BUKHARI (810-870) " " " "
(he gathered some of the earliest tradition of Islam
quoted the Quran itself to support his belief in the text
of the Bible Sura 3:72,78)
Al-Mas'udi (956) " " " "
Abu Ali Husain Bin Sina (1037)" " "
AL-GHAZZALI (1111) " " " "
(probably the greatest Muslim scholar he lived after Ibn-
Khazem but did not accept his teachings)
Ibn-Khaldun (1406) " " " " " "
(he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his
teachings but rather believed the earlier Islamic
teachers.)
Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan, founder of the Aligarh College
"In the opinion of us Mohammedans it is not proved that
corruption (tahrif-i-lafzi)...was practiced."
Fakhruddin Razi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, a nephew
of Muhammed, "The Jews and early Christians were
suspected of altering the text of the Taurat and Injil;
but in the opinion of eminent doctors and theologians it
was not practicable thus to corrupt the text, because
those Scriptures were generally known and widely
circulated, having been handed down from generation to
generation."
You have already acknowledged Mohammed had access to jewish scriptures and he told Zaid to study the book of the jews, Mohammed didn't write the koran, Zaid and the scribes that he and uthman hired did, how do we know they simply didn't plagiarise already existent material, rhyming poems and claim it is divine, what exactly is the miracle of having text with multiples of 19?
First of all, I don't really go by numerological claims and the number 19 miracle, I'm not too sure about the person who tried to do that. But this is an excellent "mathematical miracle":
http://fakir60.tripod.com/occurence_of_ ... _the_q.htm
Second of all, there are significant differences in Prophetic stories, David and Solomon are named as Prophets, and instances of this nature.
Interesting they are named as prophets, what exactly did they predict in the quran?
How come in the bible these eminent 'prophets' require other prophets Samuel and Nathan respectively to convey messages from God to them.
Thirdly, it's a grievous mistake to think that the Qur'an is just a rhyming poem. You do realize that nobody has been able to emulate the Qur'an to this day?
Have you heard of the Holy Furqan?
Plus, why are you speaking in such vague terms, where do you think the Qur'an is plagiarized and when did it happen?
Well the solomon stories I believed is plagiarised from the II Targum of Esther.
I believe the story of Abraham in sura 21:51-71 is plagiarised from the the Midrash Rabbah
The story of Cain and the "whoever kills a soul has killed a whole nation" I believe is plagiarised from the Targum of Jonathan-ben-Uzziah, The Targum of Jerusalem, and a book called The Pirke-Rabbi Eleazar.
I believe the concept of getting into paradise by walking across a bridge is plagiarised from Zoroastrian literature
Considering the first known archaelogical koran is dated over 150 years after the death of Mohammed and the conflicting accounts of the koran's production in the hadiths there would have been plenty of time to assimilate these stories and fabricate hadiths about their authenticity.
Why didn't the Jews and Christians of Arabia even assert this, wouldn't you think they'd be the first to make this claim?
Of course they did:
Read sura 25:4-5 this very charge of haphazard plagiarism is leveled at Muhammad by the unbelievers in Medina:
"But the unbelievers say: 'Naught is this but a lie which he has forged, and others have helped him at it.' In truth, it is they who have put forward an iniquity and a falsehood. And they say: 'Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening."
Think about why this sura is there, think about it logically, isn't it a little bit strange that Mohammed needs his allah to justify a sura that he is not plagiarising when the unbelievers, jews and pagans were laughing at him for just that.
How does islam differ from any other religion that say do good works, and legalism to the point of being obsessively compulsive?
Look at my signature. The key is belief. Good works will bring you closer to God after you have believe in Him. Second of all, the difference is that Islam is from God, while other religions were written by men.
Their legalisms and rules are not divine, no matter how intricate they may be. All the laws and rites of worship in Islam are the way that God has revealed to mankind that mankind should live, to institute the rule of God in their lives and society because it is better for them, if they only knew.
So says every religion, how do we know what is true judge the message from their scriptures that is all we have and the lifestyle of the messenger, when the contradictions start to pile up in the lifestyle of the alledged messenger of God to the point that it defies the morality of the common humanist something should be scrutinised.
Please let us look at the story of Abraham and the alledged sacrifice of Ishmael in your koran you said the koran is more accurate tell me if it is so accurate why doesn't it mention Ishmael by name as the sacrifice?
why doesn't it even mention Hagar the mother of the arabs during the entire Koran
Read the story, man, the Prophet (pbuh) explains the word of God as they are revealed:
http://anwary-islam.com/prophet-story/ishmael.htm
Take a look at this, also:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... ifice.html
Plus, if the second son is Isaac, who besides Ishmael is the first son?
I do hope you are aware that the promise to Abraham of a son occurs after the birth of Ishmael
you would have thought someone so pre eminent as the mother of the arabs and the mother of Ishmael the alledged sacrifical son would at least get a mention in the holy text, a reference at least.
So what are you saying? You're angry that Hajar's name is not in the Qur'an? Why does that make you mad or perplex you?
You misunderstand what I am trying to say, I don't understand why you would think I am angry, why don't you ask yourself why Hagar is not there not even in the hadiths; think about it.
You wouldn't know Abraham had another wife unless you read the bible, you wouldn't know who Ishmael's mother was unless you read the bible, you wouldn't know that Abraham's name was not always Abraham unless you read the bible.
First of all, The Prophet's (pbuh) role was as an exegete. Second of all, yes of course, the Qur'an confirms what was revealed to the Jews and Christians, but it corrected it.
It corrected it into a mish mash of aprocryphal tales without any chronology?
These observations are concurrent with someone who heard stories from the jews and simply incorporated it into a new religion. It would explain why there is no chronology in the Koran
If the Qur'an was from anyone besides God, they would have tried very hard to be meticulous about dates and times.
I find your above statement interesting, so God doesn't really care that we know the message is from Him? by sending us something that makes chronological sense to us?
The very fact that it is consistent and corrects the Biblical stories adds to this Truth. Also, the events of each story are in chronological order, the Qur'an itself does not follow a "Exodus-Present" chronology.
Read this and THEN tell me what you think:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/
and this
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... shape.html
If your koran's description of the sacrifice is so accurate tell me why is there a split school of thought within islam on who the sacrificial son was? that many have to resort to the bible to remotely justify their claim that it was Ishmael.
Bro, there is no split school of thought. All Muslim know that Ishmael was the son to be sacrificed. They acknowledge this every year after Hajj. Those Muslims were showing you with Bible quotes how the story of the Qur'an is even more plausible and accurate using the narrative and descriptions of the Bible. Please read them again.
From Al Tabari (2: pp. 82-86)
"The earliest sages of our Prophet's nation disagree about which of Abraham's two sons it was that he was commanded to sacrifice. Some say it was Isaac, while others say it was Ishmael. Both views are supported by statements related on the authority of the Messenger of God. If both groups of statements were equally sound, then - since they both came from the Prophet - only the Quran could serve as proof that the account naming Isaac is clearly the more truthful of the two."
If the commandment contradict themselves I have to quadruple check from what I know that I indeed am hearing from God.
And when does that happen?
When an alledged messenger denies the message of the two previous revelations, and claims they are both corrupt. Wouldn't you?
I read how Mohammed obtained followers by promising them quraish booty and paradise if they died following him in stealing booty from honest businessmen and enslaving their women, how he attacked quraish caravans repeatedly, how his followers killed and stole booty in the sacred month of rahab (incidentally it is very revealing on sura 9:5, have you ever wondered why God would ask his followers to respect a pagan festival such as rahab?)
Ok, millions of followers by promising people booty? Honest businessmen who weren't trying to murder the Muslims and the Prophet (pbuh)? What an Orientalist account. If you want to believe that, that's up to you. When you don't believe that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was commanded by God, idle suspicion will always be lodged into your thinking. That's like feeling sorry for Pharoah and his armies when they were afflicted by God.
I wonder if you have read the hadiths of Ishaq, Bukhari, Muslim and Tabari I obtained all this information from, rest assured I am not making this up, not getting them from apologetic sites I am getting them from your religious material.
And if you don't believe God sent Jesus to die for our sins, you put yourself back in the spiritual bonds of legalism.
I only believe what was revealed by God, not what was written by men. God always brings signs to verify his word.
Men who spend nights in caves worshipping pagan dieties all their lives till they are in their forties have to be scrutinised when they purport to have recevied a revelation from God, how do we know it is from God or the devil especially when the message conflicts the two previous revelations agreed upon as coming from God, surely you see the logic in this?
Very simple, I look at the prophecies in the previous revelations (old testament) I look at them fulfilled in the new testament
And the Qur'an also verifies that Jesus (pbuh) is the Messiah.
what do you understand is meant by the term messiah, the moment your koran mentions that Jesus was the messiah should have prompted you to investigate the implication of that term.
islam on the other hand needs to discredit and insult the intelligence of the followers of the same God who sent both previous revelations to justify it's existance.
God asks you to put your trust in Him alone, not the words of men.
Your prophet comes to me with no prophecies of any merit, a book he never wrote with the first archaelogical evidence of one over 150 years after his death, whose am I putting my trust in by believing him if not a man.
Bukhari vol 5 266
"By Allah, though I am the apostle of Allah, yet I do not know what Allah will do to me"
Commenting on the notion that some people believe that God owes them paradise for anything they've done or believed:
From Sahih Muslim:
Book 039, Number 6761:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There is none whose deeds alone would entitle him to get into Paradise. It was said to him: And, Allah's Messenger, not even you? Thereupon he said: Not even I, but that my Lord wraps me in Mercy.
Peace bro
Still implies your prophet doesn't know if he will enter paradise or not, don't twist what those two hadiths say it is clearly implied.
Last edited by Liberate on Thu Apr 15, 2004 03:44 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Believer
- Preacher
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 03:42 am
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Peace humble guest,
And indeed God guided the Church fathers to take the 4 earliset most reliable Gospels from the 100's of different gospel around!
They could very well have added popularized forgeries like the Infancy Gospels, but they didn't. They were wise, too wise to add the latest fad stories to the Holy Bible!
How did they find the 4 earliest Gospels themsleves????? Really God was with them!
But don't you see???
I believe exactly what you said!
At least I have entire chapters of OT prophecy to support the passion, death, and resurrection of Christ!
You have nothing but late apocryphal writings and your trained mind, trained to believe the Quran instead of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Shows complete ignorance on what the term "Son of God" means!
He is the King that came from God, and is of God.
Psalm 2
4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.
5 Then he rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
6 "I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill."
7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD :
He said to me, "You are my Son;
today I have become your Father
8 Ask of me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will rule them with an iron scepter;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery."
Jesus was God and came heaven, proceeding from the Father to earth and became the Son of God, and He was a heavenly King!
He will one day rule over all of us!
He is God coming as a son of God, a man, but He is God!
He was the only true Son of God in that He was of the nature and power of God, proceeding from the father to earth as a son of God, this is important that you, humble, know this. The Quran does not show any knowledge of what I have told you! Shows that an ignorant human mind is responsible for writings the Quran, not God!
This says nothing to me about this:
Jesus taight us to love our enemies as ourselves, and He told us that even pagans greet their friends but not their enemies.
Did Muhammed love his enemies? Was he different than the pagans in the ways he treated his enemies?
Jesus showed love and mercy to whores and adulteresses and sinners, often teaching the Word of God to them in their dives.
Christ spared the adulteress from the angry Jews.
Did Muhammed show love and mercy to sexual sinners and thieves? Why did Muhammed kill adulteresses and kill people??
Jesus taught us that marriage was a sacred bond between two peopple, and if two people divorce and remmary, they commit adultery.
Muhammed was married many times, had divorces.
Muhammed used some of his marriages for purely political reasons! He made a mockery out of a very sacred bond.
I don't want any more links, they tell me nothing.
What do you, humble request, think about this?
Your prophet Muhammed failed to live up to Christ's teachings.
He acted in ways that surely Jesus would have reprimanded him, and he would have ben disgusted in him.
By the way, prophet Jesus never talked about one-eyed Dajjal coming, such detail was not revealed about the anti-Christ. He cannot be an influential world dictator if he's scraggly like a pirate with one eye!
No comment. I just loved these two sentences so much I wanted to quote them for progeny.
And indeed God guided the Church fathers to take the 4 earliset most reliable Gospels from the 100's of different gospel around!
They could very well have added popularized forgeries like the Infancy Gospels, but they didn't. They were wise, too wise to add the latest fad stories to the Holy Bible!
How did they find the 4 earliest Gospels themsleves????? Really God was with them!
Because I'm not in the business of conjecturing about what happened in history or inventing new theologies. I believe ONLY in what God has revealed to mankind.
But don't you see???
I believe exactly what you said!
At least I have entire chapters of OT prophecy to support the passion, death, and resurrection of Christ!
You have nothing but late apocryphal writings and your trained mind, trained to believe the Quran instead of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
You didn't even read it. And tell me, where is the misunderstanding in the verse:
“And they say: Allah has taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified! Nay, but whatsoever is in the heaven and the earth are His. All are subservient unto Him. The originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decrees a thing, He says unto it only: Be! and it is” (2:116-117).
Shows complete ignorance on what the term "Son of God" means!
He is the King that came from God, and is of God.
Psalm 2
4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.
5 Then he rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
6 "I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill."
7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD :
He said to me, "You are my Son;
today I have become your Father
8 Ask of me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will rule them with an iron scepter;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery."
Jesus was God and came heaven, proceeding from the Father to earth and became the Son of God, and He was a heavenly King!
He will one day rule over all of us!
He is God coming as a son of God, a man, but He is God!
He was the only true Son of God in that He was of the nature and power of God, proceeding from the father to earth as a son of God, this is important that you, humble, know this. The Quran does not show any knowledge of what I have told you! Shows that an ignorant human mind is responsible for writings the Quran, not God!
http://www.prophetmuhammed.org/Default.asp
This says nothing to me about this:
Jesus taight us to love our enemies as ourselves, and He told us that even pagans greet their friends but not their enemies.
Did Muhammed love his enemies? Was he different than the pagans in the ways he treated his enemies?
Jesus showed love and mercy to whores and adulteresses and sinners, often teaching the Word of God to them in their dives.
Christ spared the adulteress from the angry Jews.
Did Muhammed show love and mercy to sexual sinners and thieves? Why did Muhammed kill adulteresses and kill people??
Jesus taught us that marriage was a sacred bond between two peopple, and if two people divorce and remmary, they commit adultery.
Muhammed was married many times, had divorces.
Muhammed used some of his marriages for purely political reasons! He made a mockery out of a very sacred bond.
I don't want any more links, they tell me nothing.
What do you, humble request, think about this?
Your prophet Muhammed failed to live up to Christ's teachings.
He acted in ways that surely Jesus would have reprimanded him, and he would have ben disgusted in him.
By the way, prophet Jesus never talked about one-eyed Dajjal coming, such detail was not revealed about the anti-Christ. He cannot be an influential world dictator if he's scraggly like a pirate with one eye!
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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humble_guest
- Preacher
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 03:12 am
If the manuscripts were kept in a safe place in the prophet's house why would Zaid complain about the collection of the koran equivalent to moving mountains, if all he had to do was just go to the safe place in the prophet's house and get it.
Because Muslims hated to do anything that they hadn't done during the time of the Prophet. They were apprehensive and anxious about adding or subtracting any rite of worship or saying or theological point.
The fascinating thing about Zaid's apprehension is that he's making such a big deal out of just putting all the Chapters in order into a single book, whereas they had always been unordered and on separate sheets.
There is a logical problem with this if some had their own copies why panick over gathering another copy to collate the koran, was Zaid so worried that he was scared of just getting another copy (surely it says the same thing as all the others) and using it, why would Abu Bakr ask Zaid to collect the koran if other people already had their own copies
Because remember that all the companions took their own notes on exegesis and diacritics. There were 7 variant readings (pronunciations) and everyone took explanatory notes from the Prophet on the meaning of the verses. The text of course was the same as all the others, the apprehension was about getting the hundreds of people who had memorized the Qur'an together for the momentous task. Abu Bakr asked Zaid to make a copy from which other copies could be made, instead of having all the companions keep their own rough copies on various writing materials, they wanted a complete text, cover to cover, instead of letting everyone continue to read from papyrus, leaves, and scapula bones. In addition, the mass production of the Qur'an was underway and they wanted to seriously start distributing copies throughout the expanding Muslim world.
I hope you have noticed that I have dealt with islamic material alone, I have not referred you to any website, can you not show me the same courtesy instead of referring me to a bunch of websites that contradict and romanticize your own hadiths.
I seriously don't know what you mean bro, the ones I posted don't contradict any hadiths. I wish you would just sit down and try to understand them so you can finally realize how meticulous the compilation of the Qur'an was.
What is the point of our discussion if all you do is point me to a mass page document of apologetic material and say 'read', have you noticed all I have done with you is apply our God given logic amidst your quran and sunnah, I was hoping for a discussion in your own words is that so hard?
Bro, I WANT to have a discussion with you, but right now any discussion we would have would be fruitless because we don't share the same basic principles or sets of facts. You're coming to me from the perspective that the Qur'an wasn't even written down during the time of the Prophet, when non-Muslims and Muslim academics alike both know this is ridiculous. Once you read my links, you will have a different understanding and can re-aproach the issue and ask more educated questions.
How about Joshua, Samuel, David or any of the other authors of the 66 books in the bible, surely there would have been one occurence one mention of these fascinating symptoms whenever God brought a revelation to them?, the old testament does not shy from such issues it shows the good and the bad, it would have mentioned something as the prophets collapsing foaming at the mouth whenever they received a revelation from God.
The Old and New Testaments actually say nothing about any of the Prophets' actions when they received revelations. You're being so blindered by not thinking from an objective perspective. If you actually believed this was revelation from God, wouldn't you want to see WHAT was revealed instead of doubting the manner you'd expect revelation to be revealed.
Yes, Joseph Smith was very calm when he was making up his stories, that doesn't mean he was credible.
Would you like to elaborate on how they broke their convenant?
+They changed the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them
+The Children of Israel broke various promises and covenants with God even after He had saved them, observing the Sabbath etc.
Where is your evidence for this, is it a coincidence that the pagan arabs practiced these same rites circumnavigating the ka'ba kissing the ka'ba even to the point of cutting their hair, where is your evidence hagar participated in such a rite?
You can start here:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/b ... _kaaba.htm
http://www.islamworld.net/black_stone.htm
According to your hadiths, it was built by God with adam to conduct morning prayers, later destroyed and rebuilt by Abraham and Ishmael, ofcourse there is no archaelogical evidence for this or any other evidence other than islam, how about the alternative scenario of Mohammed practicing politics by trying to bribe the pagans into his new religion by claiming what they already practiced such as venerating the black stone was really done by the patriachs so they can continue doing it but do it now under his new religion, this sounds much more logical (and is what is agreed upon by many an islamuc scholar) than God built it with Adam for morning prayers.
Bro you can believe whatever you want, but the essentials of any conspiracy theory is that they have to be consistent and supported by some evidence, but by now it seems to me that your story is not clear in your mind. First you say that the Prophet was treating the pagans unjustly and persecuting them, then he was making bribes with them. The pagans, if you read the hadiths, circumnavigated the kaaba in the opposite direction chanting to their idols and gods, often unclothed. They had completely hijacked the rites and perverted them to their polytheistic ways, not to mention the fact that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) added several rites to what the pagans had adhered to (which was an unnumbered circling while chanting).
Besides, what type of pagan could be bribed to completely change their religion to perform the rites of Islam to the One God? Remember all the fighting taking place? This is how ardently the polytheists refused to change any of their ways.
So what did they think of Jesus, did they believe He was a Son of God, did they believe He was just another prophet? if they did so you do realise they longer qualify as christians, they might as well be jews, are you sure you are not confusing sects of judaism in the arabian peninsula as your unitarians?
It's very fascinating actually, man Unitarians were once a part of the Essense (of which John the Baptist were a part). The Early Unitarians believed in the virgin birth and in the Divine Unity and that Jesus (pbuh) was a man and Messiah and Messenger. They also did not abrogate the Mosaic Laws, but instead, lived by them as Jesus (pbuh) did. Also, even though they could not explain the virgin birth expect as the miracle of the Messiah, they didn't attribute it to Jesus being the son of God, it remained a miracle because Jesus stressed that this was all it was. My book thoroughly talks ALL about this and gives you a complete history of what happened to the Scriptures and the Early Unitarians from 0 AD onward. You should get it.
Also, the Unitarians weren't just in Arabia, they were living and spread throughout the Middle East. No way they were Jews because they believed in Jesus (pbuh) and that he was the Messiah. They believed that the Jews had also not kept their Mosaic laws.
I have the scripture that says He said that.
Yes, and Hindus have a scripture also. What I'm asking is, how do you know that what the Scripture said Jesus said, is actually what he said? You make fun of the hadiths all the time but of course you realize that any authentic hadith is less questionable than the transmission and authenticity of the Bible. Mankind is required to use its mind to determine whether what they believe and live by is actually God's word. Look at all the signs of the Qur'an and compare them to the Bible.
Do you honestly think Mohammed would get his scribes together and tell them this is the revelation from allah I received this morning..." Say....". It is believed the say: in the koran was added and is not in the original arabic by many.
People believe what they want to believe, bro. The Qur'an was memorized in those words by hundreds since it was revealed to the Prophet. Nothing that was transcribed differed from what was memorized and this is a fact. This double system of transmission is precisely what protects the Qur'an from any change. 600 pages committed to memory by thousands.
Then ask yourself why did Mohammed put it there and claim allah revealed this message to him as the final messenger, do you not see that t is eerily convenient that allah is giving in the whims of his prophet, there is no evidence of any previous message from the two previous revelations where God tells his prophet to put down in his holy text that He said no one should raise their voice above that of him, simple logic tells me there is a fine line between allah and mohammed.
Muhammad didn't put anything "there", bro. And what do you mean it's convenient. We're talking about the Messenger of God, here, don't you think he is favored slightly by God and protected? Do you not realize how the environment was in pagan Arabia at the time. People jeering and killing and yelling whenever the Qur'an was recited to drown it out. Think about the jeering of apologetics but on a larger scale and by boorish pagans who disbelieved and wanted to murder the Messenger of God for bring guidance to them.
The verse is quite clearly saying that "Allah prohibited speaking to the Prophet in a loud voice, just as one speaks loudly to another in a way that offends him. Instead, they were required to speak to him in terms of respect, honor and calmness." But in your mind, the entire 600 page revelation is a scheme to get people to talk to him in respect. Picture Moses or any other prophet and God requiring that their companions speaking to His Messenger with respect. Only the arrogant would be jealous of the prophet of God.
Rest assured I read it, I also noticed it was some several pages of exergesis and links on the ONE prophecy, it looked like the writer was trying to shift focus that THIS IS THE ONLY MAJOR PROPHECY IN THE KORAN by writting chunks of irrelevant material about it a case of quantity to replace quality, If I tell you "Bush will defeat Saddam in 3 months and it takes over 12 months" have I successfully made a prophecy?
Well here are some others:
http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Muhammad- ... hammed.htm
http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Muhammad- ... hammed.htm
Also, your analogy isn't very fitting. It would be more like a prophecy that "Iraq will defeat Bush in 12 months" right after Iraq had been completely obliterated by Bush and the American Army, and the prophecy is then fulfilled. Similar, remember, I'm just helping you make a comparison.
Bear in mind God is omniscient He knows the beginning from the end, it is expected from an omniscient being to be able to predict the future.
I agree, I just think that you're neglecting God's other miraculous sign which is the inimitability of the Qur'an. I mean if the Qur'an had blue prints for a space shuttle, who today wouldn't believe it? But people 1400 years ago would have seriously thought it was jibberish. That's why the Qur'an is a perpetual miracle which anyone who studies it can understand. Also remember that there has to be room for disbelief. Most people think the Qur'an is some long poem or something without ever realizing what it is. They overlook the signs because they are waiting for a prediction.
I am sorry but I see no miraculous revelation when I read the quran, and hadiths, the contents in it are what I would expect to come out of the mind of a man, stories and events that surround his local neighbourhood in the arabian peninsula, obtaining respect from the Quraish and jews who were laughing at him and nothing else.
Then I highly recommend you read my links. You just don't know, bro:
I challenge you to read everything here, if you are sincere:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/
Please read again what you have just said in light of the hadith I posted!.
I did. Nobody said that the Prophet was immune to all diseases like colds or flus, it was congenital defects and illnesses which the hadith refers to.
Many great islamic scholars do not believe the bible was corrupted:
Well those names certainly believed in the God, the Qur'an and everything therein, and the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). The claims of the Qur'an and the Bible regarding Jesus (pbuh) are mutually exclusive regarding divinity and resurrection and crucifixion and his being the son of God.
How do you resolve that? (Without even questioning whether or not your claim is true that they did indeed think the Scriptures were not corrupted though the Qur'an says they are).
Interesting they are named as prophets, what exactly did they predict in the quran?
How come in the bible these eminent 'prophets' require other prophets Samuel and Nathan respectively to convey messages from God to them.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=prophet
I think you're going only be definition 3. In Islam a prophet is anyone to whom God has revealed the Message and has commanded to preach it to a people, not necessarily one who predicts things.
Have you heard of the Holy Furqan?
haha yes! Wow, please take that to anyone who knows Classical Arabic and has studied the Qur'an and see what they tell you. I can't believe you think that just because people wrote a book in Arabic that is modeled after the Qur'an that it even remotely measures up. How can you put your trust in that when you aren't even sure? Or are you just secure in thinking that since a group of Christians did it, that the matter is settled?
Well the solomon stories I believed is plagiarised from the II Targum of Esther.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... sheba.html
I believe the story of Abraham in sura 21:51-71 is plagiarised from the the Midrash Rabbah
I'm not sure about how the Jewish version differs from the Qur'anic one, but I will look that up for you.
The story of Cain and the "whoever kills a soul has killed a whole nation" I believe is plagiarised from the Targum of Jonathan-ben-Uzziah, The Targum of Jerusalem, and a book called The Pirke-Rabbi Eleazar.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... CandA.html
Considering the first known archaelogical koran is dated over 150 years after the death of Mohammed and the conflicting accounts of the koran's production in the hadiths there would have been plenty of time to assimilate these stories and fabricate hadiths about their authenticity.
Ok so you're saying that in the 150 years people changed what to what? You're claim is that people actually changed the Qur'an from what was revealed to the Prophet (pbuh). If you don't even believe anything was revealed to the Prophet, what makes you even think this? If you do believe the "true" Qur'an was revealed to the Prophet, what exactly do you propose was changed? It seems to me that, again, you're not really sure of what you want to accuse the Prophet or his companions of, you just want to dump allegations on everyone.
Think about why this sura is there, think about it logically, isn't it a little bit strange that Mohammed needs his allah to justify a sura that he is not plagiarising when the unbelievers, jews and pagans were laughing at him for just that.
Bro, the unbelievers always laugh, it makes no difference to them and I wouldn't guage veracity by what they do or do not laugh at. I think the more interesting thing is the fact that knowledgeable Jews and Christians converted to Islam at that time.
So says every religion, how do we know what is true judge the message from their scriptures that is all we have and the lifestyle of the messenger, when the contradictions start to pile up in the lifestyle of the alledged messenger of God to the point that it defies the morality of the common humanist something should be scrutinised.
Absolutely it should be scrutinized. For your own sake you better hope that the version of the story you're relying on is the accurate one. Your gambling with your afterlife if you're going to take Rodin's word on the life of the Prophet Muhammad. Defies the morality of a humanist? May God forgive you for that one.
I do hope you are aware that the promise to Abraham of a son occurs after the birth of IshmaelI find your above statement interesting, so God doesn't really care that we know the message is from Him? by sending us something that makes chronological sense to us?
Abraham prayed for a son and was blessed each time, bro. Scroll back up to the story.You misunderstand what I am trying to say, I don't understand why you would think I am angry, why don't you ask yourself why Hagar is not there not even in the hadiths; think about it.
Where do you think the arabised word "Hagar" came from? The Prophet recounted the entire story of Hagar and Ishmael. What's the point you're trying to make?
The Qur'an makes chronological sense, bro, the stories in the order of the chapters just aren't in chronological order. In fact, as in the case with the story of Abraham, that makes more chronological sense than the Biblical version.
From Al Tabari (2: pp. 82-86)
"The earliest sages of our Prophet's nation disagree about which of Abraham's two sons it was that he was commanded to sacrifice. Some say it was Isaac, while others say it was Ishmael. Both views are supported by statements related on the authority of the Messenger of God. If both groups of statements were equally sound, then - since they both came from the Prophet - only the Quran could serve as proof that the account naming Isaac is clearly the more truthful of the two."
Exactly. Unnamed child is born. Second child, Isaac, is born. This is in the Qur'an. Doesn't take more than one step of deduction.
When an alledged messenger denies the message of the two previous revelations, and claims they are both corrupt. Wouldn't you?
On the contrary, he says that the messages were the same but the corruptions made them different.
I wonder if you have read the hadiths of Ishaq, Bukhari, Muslim and Tabari I obtained all this information from, rest assured I am not making this up, not getting them from apologetic sites I am getting them from your religious material.
Ok so post them here then just so I don't here your summaries of them. "Stealing from the honest hardworking pagan businessmen" sounds a lot like "and the poor army of Pharoah drowned when God closed the sea upon them as they were hunting down the children of Israel"
Men who spend nights in caves worshipping pagan dieties all their lives till they are in their forties have to be scrutinised when they purport to have recevied a revelation from God, how do we know it is from God or the devil especially when the message conflicts the two previous revelations agreed upon as coming from God, surely you see the logic in this?
The Prophet NEVER worshipped any pagan deities. How do you know it is from God? You look at the Qur'an and you look at the life of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and decide. But you better look earnestly.
what do you understand is meant by the term messiah, the moment your koran mentions that Jesus was the messiah should have prompted you to investigate the implication of that term.
He's the Messiah and his role is yet to be fulfilled, bro. That's why he returns.
Your prophet comes to me with no prophecies of any merit, a book he never wrote with the first archaelogical evidence of one over 150 years after his death, whose am I putting my trust in by believing him if not a man.
Better research the Qur'an again, bro.
Still implies your prophet doesn't know if he will enter paradise or not, don't twist what those two hadiths say it is clearly implied.
What is meant is that God doesn't owe anyone paradise. The creation never has a right upon the creator. But the hadith does not say that the benchmark for humanity thinks he's going to Hell. On the other hand, it's sinful to think you have earned paradise or that you'll never spend but a few days in Hell.
How did they find the 4 earliest Gospels themselves
There were literally tens if not hundreds of gospels. Tell me the story of how they were chosen above the rest? You think they just chose the earliest, right?
The Quran does not show any knowledge of what I have told you!
The Qur'an explicity negates the Trinity and that Jesus (pbuh) was anything but a Messenger and man. How much more overt can it be?
Your prophet Muhammed failed to live up to Christ's teachings.
He acted in ways that surely Jesus would have reprimanded him, and he would have ben disgusted in him.
I disagree, bro, I think Jesus (pbuh) had the same Message.
1)Jesus taight us to love our enemies as ourselves, and He told us that even pagans greet their friends but not their enemies.
2) Did Muhammed love his enemies? Was he different than the pagans in the ways he treated his enemies?
3) Jesus showed love and mercy to whores and adulteresses and sinners, often teaching the Word of God to them in their dives.
4) Christ spared the adulteress from the angry Jews.
5) Did Muhammed show love and mercy to sexual sinners and thieves? Why did Muhammed kill adulteresses and kill people??
6) Jesus taught us that marriage was a sacred bond between two peopple, and if two people divorce and remmary, they commit adultery.
7) Muhammed was married many times, had divorces.
8 ) Muhammed used some of his marriages for purely political reasons! He made a mockery out of a very sacred bond.
1) yes
2) yes, and was patient with them too. Definitely different from the pagans.
3) True
4) True
5) Muhammad showed so much mercy to sexual sinners:
Among them is that when Ma‘iz came to the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and asked him to purify him, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said to him, “Allah have mercy on you! Go away and ask Allah’s forgiveness!” Ma‘iz then left but soon returned and asked again to be purified, and the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) repeated what he had said. The same thing then happened a third time, and it was only after the fourth time that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) asked Ma‘iz some further Questions and ordered him to be punished (related by Muslim + others). When the hadd punishment was enforced on him, Ma‘iz tried to run away but those stoning him chased him down and forcibly enforced the punishment on him. When the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) heard about this, he disapproved and said, “Why didn’t you let him go? Perhaps he would have made repentance and Allah would have accepted his repentance.” (Abu Dawud) Ibn Hajar notes in his Tuhfa that all of the offers made by the Messenger of Allah and his subsequent disapproval of his companions’ actions indicate that it is superior for one not to confess to committing zina, and that even if one did, it is recommended to withdraw one’s confession. Otherwise, the Prophet’s (Allah bless him and give him peace) offers would be meaningless (Tuhfat al-Muhtaj, 9.113).
The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was enacting God's laws on earth. They were always meant to be preventative punishments with many criteria regarding confession.
6) Actually in Islam there are several marital laws which say the same thing, especially if the remarriage isn't valid.
7) True, the Prophet was a man and showed mankind how to live and what was and wasn't permissible. There is nothing wrong with marrying and divorcing.
8 ) False
By the way, prophet Jesus never talked about one-eyed Dajjal coming, such detail was not revealed about the anti-Christ.
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 9.505 Narrated by Anas
The Prophet said, "Allah did not send any prophet but that he warned his nation of the one-eyed liar (Ad-Dajjal). He is one-eyed while your Lord is not one-eyed. The word 'Kafir' (unbeliever) is written between his two eyes."
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 4.553 Narrated by Ibn Umar
Once Allah's Apostle stood amongst the people, glorified and praised Allah as He deserved and then mentioned the Dajjal saying, "I warn you against him (i.e. the Dajjal) and there was no prophet but warned his nation against him. No doubt, Noah warned his nation against him but I tell you about him something of which no prophet told his nation before me. You should know that he is one-eyed, and Allah is not one-eyed."
He cannot be an influential world dictator if he's scraggly like a pirate with one eye!
Well he claims to be the Messiah. Then he later claims to be God. Some people of weak faith actually fall for it.
Peace bros
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
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- Location: South
Peace humble guest,
Because we have 10's if not 100's of gospel manuscripts today.
The 4 Gospels are the earliest.
Again, not a feat that mere humans could have done, truly the Lord was with those early fathers ensuring they get the story right.
Do you not believe that God would guide the fathers to get the true account of Christ's life????
And so the Quran is VERY wrong.
The Quran displays total misunderstanding of the Trinity, and lies about Jesus. Jesus was NOT just another human messenger! He was the King, the Messiah, that came from heaven to earth to save mankind! The Messiah is the Savior!!! He was the Expected One! He is the one whom the Almighty calls His Son.
Well, Muhammed did give a different message, and He did act against what Jesus taught. That is the straight upfront truth.
Okay, I just looked through some Hadiths, only a few, but I came up with these two:
Complete Sahih Muslim
Book 017, Number 4194:
'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.
Well, more proof your Book is NOT from the True God!
Jesus clearly taught against killing people and killing adulteresses.
Those harsh disbelievers that forged your Al-Kitaab should have known what Christ taught.
Complete Sahih Bukhari
Volume 4, Book 53, Number 386:
Narrated Jubair bin Haiya:
'Umar sent the Muslims to the great countries to fight the pagans. When Al-Hurmuzan embraced Islam, 'Umar said to him. "I would like to consult you regarding these countries which I intend to invade." Al-Hurmuzan said, "Yes, the example of these countries and their inhabitants who are the enemies. of the Muslims, is like a bird with a head, two wings and two legs; If one of its wings got broken, it would get up over its two legs, with one wing and the head; and if the other wing got broken, it would get up with two legs and a head, but if its head got destroyed, then the two legs, two wings and the head would become useless. The head stands for Khosrau, and one wing stands for Caesar and the other wing stands for Faris. So, order the Muslims to go towards Khosrau." So, 'Umar sent us (to Khosrau) appointing An-Numan bin Muqrin as our commander. When we reached the land of the enemy, the representative of Khosrau came out with forty-thousand warriors, and an interpreter got up saying, "Let one of you talk to me!" Al-Mughira replied, "Ask whatever you wish." The other asked, "Who are you?" Al-Mughira replied, "We are some people from the Arabs; we led a hard, miserable, disastrous life: we used to suck the hides and the date stones from hunger; we used to wear clothes made up of fur of camels and hair of goats, and to worship trees and stones. While we were in this state, the Lord of the Heavens and the Earths, Elevated is His Remembrance and Majestic is His Highness, sent to us from among ourselves a Prophet whose father and mother are known to us. Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute); and our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says:-- "Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever amongst us remain alive, shall become your master." (Al-Mughira, then blamed An-Numan for delaying the attack and) An-Nu' man said to Al-Mughira, "If you had participated in a similar battle, in the company of Allah's Apostle he would not have blamed you for waiting, nor would he have disgraced you. But I accompanied Allah's Apostle in many battles and it was his custom that if he did not fight early by daytime, he would wait till the wind had started blowing and the time for the prayer was due (i.e. after midday)."
This "prophet" of yours is a dangerous aggressor to the great Empires, no more different than Alexander the Great!
He is forceful and wicked in his manner to convert Persia and Byzantium.
Jesus Christ NEVER EVER EVER acted like Muhammed did!
Muhammed is an enemy of the True God and Jesus Christ, the Messiah and Lord.
Your prophet is paying dearly for his serious crimes against humanity!
The antichrist is to be a great influential leader that will mislead many people, he will seem very appealing to many epopple and they'll think he is God and they'll worship him.
They're not going to fall for some one-eyed pirate with 'KAFIR" tatooed to his head! They'll think he's nuts and lock him up!
There were literally tens if not hundreds of gospels. Tell me the story of how they were chosen above the rest? You think they just chose the earliest, right?
Because we have 10's if not 100's of gospel manuscripts today.
The 4 Gospels are the earliest.
Again, not a feat that mere humans could have done, truly the Lord was with those early fathers ensuring they get the story right.
Do you not believe that God would guide the fathers to get the true account of Christ's life????
The Qur'an explicity negates the Trinity and that Jesus (pbuh) was anything but a Messenger and man. How much more overt can it be?
And so the Quran is VERY wrong.
The Quran displays total misunderstanding of the Trinity, and lies about Jesus. Jesus was NOT just another human messenger! He was the King, the Messiah, that came from heaven to earth to save mankind! The Messiah is the Savior!!! He was the Expected One! He is the one whom the Almighty calls His Son.
I disagree, bro, I think Jesus (pbuh) had the same Message.
Well, Muhammed did give a different message, and He did act against what Jesus taught. That is the straight upfront truth.
1) yes
2) yes, and was patient with them too. Definitely different from the pagans.
3) True
4) True
5) Muhammad showed so much mercy to sexual sinners:
Okay, I just looked through some Hadiths, only a few, but I came up with these two:
Complete Sahih Muslim
Book 017, Number 4194:
'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.
Well, more proof your Book is NOT from the True God!
Jesus clearly taught against killing people and killing adulteresses.
Those harsh disbelievers that forged your Al-Kitaab should have known what Christ taught.
Complete Sahih Bukhari
Volume 4, Book 53, Number 386:
Narrated Jubair bin Haiya:
'Umar sent the Muslims to the great countries to fight the pagans. When Al-Hurmuzan embraced Islam, 'Umar said to him. "I would like to consult you regarding these countries which I intend to invade." Al-Hurmuzan said, "Yes, the example of these countries and their inhabitants who are the enemies. of the Muslims, is like a bird with a head, two wings and two legs; If one of its wings got broken, it would get up over its two legs, with one wing and the head; and if the other wing got broken, it would get up with two legs and a head, but if its head got destroyed, then the two legs, two wings and the head would become useless. The head stands for Khosrau, and one wing stands for Caesar and the other wing stands for Faris. So, order the Muslims to go towards Khosrau." So, 'Umar sent us (to Khosrau) appointing An-Numan bin Muqrin as our commander. When we reached the land of the enemy, the representative of Khosrau came out with forty-thousand warriors, and an interpreter got up saying, "Let one of you talk to me!" Al-Mughira replied, "Ask whatever you wish." The other asked, "Who are you?" Al-Mughira replied, "We are some people from the Arabs; we led a hard, miserable, disastrous life: we used to suck the hides and the date stones from hunger; we used to wear clothes made up of fur of camels and hair of goats, and to worship trees and stones. While we were in this state, the Lord of the Heavens and the Earths, Elevated is His Remembrance and Majestic is His Highness, sent to us from among ourselves a Prophet whose father and mother are known to us. Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute); and our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says:-- "Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever amongst us remain alive, shall become your master." (Al-Mughira, then blamed An-Numan for delaying the attack and) An-Nu' man said to Al-Mughira, "If you had participated in a similar battle, in the company of Allah's Apostle he would not have blamed you for waiting, nor would he have disgraced you. But I accompanied Allah's Apostle in many battles and it was his custom that if he did not fight early by daytime, he would wait till the wind had started blowing and the time for the prayer was due (i.e. after midday)."
This "prophet" of yours is a dangerous aggressor to the great Empires, no more different than Alexander the Great!
He is forceful and wicked in his manner to convert Persia and Byzantium.
Jesus Christ NEVER EVER EVER acted like Muhammed did!
Muhammed is an enemy of the True God and Jesus Christ, the Messiah and Lord.
Your prophet is paying dearly for his serious crimes against humanity!
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 9.505 Narrated by Anas
The Prophet said, "Allah did not send any prophet but that he warned his nation of the one-eyed liar (Ad-Dajjal). He is one-eyed while your Lord is not one-eyed. The word 'Kafir' (unbeliever) is written between his two eyes."
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 4.553 Narrated by Ibn Umar
Once Allah's Apostle stood amongst the people, glorified and praised Allah as He deserved and then mentioned the Dajjal saying, "I warn you against him (i.e. the Dajjal) and there was no prophet but warned his nation against him. No doubt, Noah warned his nation against him but I tell you about him something of which no prophet told his nation before me. You should know that he is one-eyed, and Allah is not one-eyed."
Well he claims to be the Messiah. Then he later claims to be God. Some people of weak faith actually fall for it.
The antichrist is to be a great influential leader that will mislead many people, he will seem very appealing to many epopple and they'll think he is God and they'll worship him.
They're not going to fall for some one-eyed pirate with 'KAFIR" tatooed to his head! They'll think he's nuts and lock him up!
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
-
humble_guest
- Preacher
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 03:12 am
Because we have 10's if not 100's of gospel manuscripts today.
The 4 Gospels are the earliest.
Again, not a feat that mere humans could have done, truly the Lord was with those early fathers ensuring they get the story right.
Do you not believe that God would guide the fathers to get the true account of Christ's life????
So tell me the story. There are hundreds of Gospels and the Church fathers flip through them to see which ones were written earliest and choose them? But then why do you think they are inspired men if all they did was choose the first four written? By your account, what if the four first versions happened to be falsified? Also, I'd enjoy some evidence that the four gospels were indeed the first four ever written. Where are they other ones?
Well, Muhammed did give a different message, and He did act against what Jesus taught. That is the straight upfront truth.
They brought the same message and the Prophet did not act against what Jesus taught. How can you say that when you aren't even sure what Jesus (pbuh) taught?
Well, more proof your Book is NOT from the True God!
Jesus clearly taught against killing people and killing adulteresses.
Those harsh disbelievers that forged your Al-Kitaab should have known what Christ taught.
I have a very easy question for you. If God Himself, and you yourself were absolutely certain it was God, He appeared to you and directly commanded you to obey His law that all adulterers who are caught in the act of adultery by four witnesses should be stoned. Would you or would you not obey this command?
This "prophet" of yours is a dangerous aggressor to the great Empires, no more different than Alexander the Great!
He is forceful and wicked in his manner to convert Persia and Byzantium.
Jizya is no more than the obligatory alms that Muslims pay. Also, Jizya is taxed from non-Muslim men who choose not to participate in the defense of the state. Those who choose to help defend it don't have to pay it. Plus, it's a command from God.
The antichrist is to be a great influential leader that will mislead many people, he will seem very appealing to many epopple and they'll think he is God and they'll worship him.
They're not going to fall for some one-eyed pirate with 'KAFIR" tatooed to his head! They'll think he's nuts and lock him up!
Only the believers will see anything on his forehead.
Also, a man with one eye pops out of nowhere and performs miracles and claims to be the Messiah, you don't think people will be misled by this? People even believe him when he claims to be God on earth.
Peace
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
-
Believer
- Preacher
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 03:42 am
- Location: South
Peace humble guest,
I'd give you strong evidence from OT prophecy, but seems you've forgotten about that. take a look at Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 again, just you read them and try to understand them. Don't worry about Jewish and Christian scholars.
I'd also give you early historical evidence, but denying reality is what you're into.
There is a profound lack of evidence that Jesus was not crucified!
Whether one would be Unitarian, Trinitarian, Nestorian, Jewish, Persian, or pagan....every one since Jesus died all believe that crucified!!!
I know that Jesus's teachings about Love aren't corrupted, such pure teachings could not have been corrupted. Men aren't capable of coming up with such divine holy teachings!
Jesus taught us to love our enemies and greet even enemies!
This is radical stuff, way way too radical even for Islamic thought!
What does that tell you?
I would say "Jesus said what was very wise 'He whom has never sinned, let him throw the first stone' and I know I sinned, so I cannot stone this adulteress...because I as a sinner myself should likewise be stoned"
This wisdom comes from God, from Jesus Christ.
God would not speak with less wisdom than what He teaches!
What do you think about Muhammed and Omar's hostile aggression towards Persia and Byzantium???
He urged his followers to attack these nations unless they submitted to Islam and accepted the Jizya tax.
I mean, is this correct behavior for a man of God???
Jesus most definitely would not have done this!
Do you ask yourself "WWJD" or "WWMD"?
That might sound like a silly question, but it's important.
Oh, you know people today! Sure they'd believe anything!!!
But tricks and stuff is only one part of the antichrist's plan to steal many souls.
We believe this antichrist is going to be a really suave guy that really wins the hearts and souls of many people with movimng speach, like Hitler could really rally people with his evil yet suave speeches. Just tricks, I don't know if that's enough to really win the hearts of people rather than amuse them. We see so much stuff on TV, anything would just amuse us!!!
So tell me the story. There are hundreds of Gospels and the Church fathers flip through them to see which ones were written earliest and choose them? But then why do you think they are inspired men if all they did was choose the first four written? By your account, what if the four first versions happened to be falsified? Also, I'd enjoy some evidence that the four gospels were indeed the first four ever written. Where are they other ones?
I'd give you strong evidence from OT prophecy, but seems you've forgotten about that. take a look at Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 again, just you read them and try to understand them. Don't worry about Jewish and Christian scholars.
I'd also give you early historical evidence, but denying reality is what you're into.
There is a profound lack of evidence that Jesus was not crucified!
Whether one would be Unitarian, Trinitarian, Nestorian, Jewish, Persian, or pagan....every one since Jesus died all believe that crucified!!!
They brought the same message and the Prophet did not act against what Jesus taught. How can you say that when you aren't even sure what Jesus (pbuh) taught?
I know that Jesus's teachings about Love aren't corrupted, such pure teachings could not have been corrupted. Men aren't capable of coming up with such divine holy teachings!
Jesus taught us to love our enemies and greet even enemies!
This is radical stuff, way way too radical even for Islamic thought!
What does that tell you?
I have a very easy question for you. If God Himself, and you yourself were absolutely certain it was God, He appeared to you and directly commanded you to obey His law that all adulterers who are caught in the act of adultery by four witnesses should be stoned. Would you or would you not obey this command?
I would say "Jesus said what was very wise 'He whom has never sinned, let him throw the first stone' and I know I sinned, so I cannot stone this adulteress...because I as a sinner myself should likewise be stoned"
This wisdom comes from God, from Jesus Christ.
God would not speak with less wisdom than what He teaches!
Jizya is no more than the obligatory alms that Muslims pay. Also, Jizya is taxed from non-Muslim men who choose not to participate in the defense of the state. Those who choose to help defend it don't have to pay it. Plus, it's a command from God.
What do you think about Muhammed and Omar's hostile aggression towards Persia and Byzantium???
He urged his followers to attack these nations unless they submitted to Islam and accepted the Jizya tax.
I mean, is this correct behavior for a man of God???
Jesus most definitely would not have done this!
Do you ask yourself "WWJD" or "WWMD"?
That might sound like a silly question, but it's important.
Only the believers will see anything on his forehead.
Also, a man with one eye pops out of nowhere and performs miracles and claims to be the Messiah, you don't think people will be misled by this? People even believe him when he claims to be God on earth.
Oh, you know people today! Sure they'd believe anything!!!
But tricks and stuff is only one part of the antichrist's plan to steal many souls.
We believe this antichrist is going to be a really suave guy that really wins the hearts and souls of many people with movimng speach, like Hitler could really rally people with his evil yet suave speeches. Just tricks, I don't know if that's enough to really win the hearts of people rather than amuse them. We see so much stuff on TV, anything would just amuse us!!!
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
-
humble_guest
- Preacher
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 03:12 am
Whether one would be Unitarian, Trinitarian, Nestorian, Jewish, Persian, or pagan....every one since Jesus died all believe that crucified!!!
[Yet they did not kill him nor crucify him, but it was only made to appear to them so. And surely those who disagree about it are doubtful and have no knowledge of it, but only follow conjecture, and certainly they did not kill him-] (Qur’an 4:157)
There is not a single piece of evidence that negates the Qur’an’s account, primarily because there can never be historical proof that would appeared to have transpired actually transpired
Jesus taught us to love our enemies and greet even enemies!
This is radical stuff, way way too radical even for Islamic thought!
What does that tell you?
Wait a minute. So what exactly do you think Muslims are commanded to do to "their enemies"? I'm interested to know.
I would say "Jesus said what was very wise 'He whom has never sinned, let him throw the first stone' and I know I sinned, so I cannot stone this adulteress...because I as a sinner myself should likewise be stoned"
This wisdom comes from God, from Jesus Christ.
God would not speak with less wisdom than what He teaches!
So in summary, you would disobey God's direct command. Compare that to what the Prophet Abraham did when he was commanded by God.
I mean, is this correct behavior for a man of God???
Jesus most definitely would not have done this!
Jesus (pbuh) took God's commands very seriously. Remember the money changers in the temple?
Do you ask yourself "WWJD" or "WWMD"?
That might sound like a silly question, but it's important.
WWJD, WWMD, they would have done the same things, i.e. obeyed God.
But tricks and stuff is only one part of the antichrist's plan to steal many souls.
We believe this antichrist is going to be a really suave guy that really wins the hearts and souls of many people with movimng speach, like Hitler could really rally people with his evil yet suave speeches. Just tricks, I don't know if that's enough to really win the hearts of people rather than amuse them. We see so much stuff on TV, anything would just amuse us!!!
Well these aren't just light shows or anything, he has the ability to perform visual miracles and resurrect people and other things which the weak of faith who won't recognize him would immediately fall for. That's not to say he isn't a demagogue, but I think the miracles help just a bit.
Peace
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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littleshepard
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Peace humble guest.
It's called "personal relationship". I think you know about those things if you sincerely got lessons from someone about the bible.
You have this in your Koran too? we have this in the Bible if I'm not mistaken.
You can't show them anything of that sort since man himself is corrupted and can corrupt things to his own liking. Such as what mohammed did in his time.
But since you're so much into authenticity and if you REALLY looked into the origins of the gob, then you would know that it's a midevial forgery and therefore has no bearings on the gospels of the NT.
I thought you got Bible lessons from someone who actually knows about the bible. Reading and understanding are two different things though. I can read Japanese and Tagalog. Doesn't mean I understand it.
Yes, I need to read more, but showing you the flaws and inconsitences of your religion will not help you.
No use trying to "explain." sperm can't come from a chest cavity.
Again, note that there are spots where the PH varies, therefore the waters mix.
Yes they do. I'll have to find a link to show you.
Why are you bothered by that? Are you bothered because it's not written in ARABIC? Or because it's totally different from what you were taught? I think this question has been answered by alot of the members so I won't go into it.
I'm a disbeliever in LIES not TRUTH. Our LORD JESUS CHRIST is truth. He is THE TRUTH, not mohammed. If I'm branded as a disbeliever and will go to hell for that, then so be it. I'll die for Him anyway [I just hope I don't pull a Peter when and if that time comes. LOL]
Hmm....they could've stole that saying from the gospels.
Well...when a buddist clears their mind, they are not worshipping anyone. They are just clearing their mind of thoughts. As for questionable texts, in order to prove that your texts are correct, you first need to prove that the texts prior to you are not. However, I do think your beloved mohammed did get word from god that the people of the books texts are handed down by him.
Ok look at what you just said here. And look at what you said in this quote that you gave me prior to what you just said:
you said: "And I don't believe that the GoB is the word of God, but certainly more reliable than the gospels."
How can you use something that has fallicies to be more reliable? I don't get that logic.
Yes, but how can you use something like that that has fallacies to support the "true account" of the crucifixion? When a convicted convict takes a stand as a prosecuting witness, obivously he made a deal so that his sentence would be less otherwise he wouldn't make the deal. However, how do we know that he's actually telling the truth? There's something to be gained for him by testifying no? Well the same thing goes for gob. You cant cut and paste from this. You either accept it all as true or none at all. Same thing goes for the Bible.
LOL Oh you're smart and know better. I wasn't talking about you per say to be honest, however for the most part, I would much rather prefer those to what I've said to above.
Think? No, I know this for a fact. mohammed was a charlot of his time and fooled many into his chickanery.
the clear understandings can be found in the koran, the hadiths and mohammed's history. there is no way someone like that can represent the true God that we find in the life of Jesus Christ our saviour. He was the final seal and "prophet". Not mo.
You mean you want me to only read what your people have taught you over the years and not look at both sides of the story? No way, I can't do that. That wouldn't be fair to us "trinitarians" I have to check out both sides of the story, but not the hate ones of course.
I thought you read the bible? You should know this. If not, tell me and I'll provide you passage [too tired to look now]. Tell that marrying one woman to those in afghanistan and most of the other muslim nations. I'm not talking about "the norm" The "norm" for christians is not to drink and become drunk, but there are alot of young christians that do indeed do this to "fit in" Mohammed said you can marry 2 or 3 or 4 and treat them equally. So in this sense it is normal to marry more than 1. Most men can't marry more than 1 coz they probably can't afford it.
Let's see. First off we're talking about islam right now, not christianity:
Koran 4:3 And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.
Of course mo had about 9 wives? I didn't know he was above the law of allah. Anyway. I would like you to show me where GOD in the Bible said that you could marry more than one wife? Remember I'm Christian, not Jewish.
Matthew 19:5-6, Jesus said "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and unite with his wife, and the two will become one".
Oh it's late...does anyone have that hadith or koran verse that says a man doesn't have to ask permission of his wife to take on another wife? I'm sure I saw it somewheres.
Sure it is. You cannot legally adopt a child. You cannot give them the father's name because you feel they will lose their "identity" They also get no inheritance if a male child is born afterwards.
Well since mo stole the pig from the jews, I thought he would know about those as well? Or did he not "read" all of those Mosaic laws? Why stop at the pig? what's so special about JUST the pig? Was it to make the jews feel better? Or was that all he heard of the most when he spoke with the jews back in his days?
You mean like how people spread lies about the gospels? Hmmm..what goes around comes around, don't you think?
It is? PICKTHAL: And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.
Looks like a slave to me. I could find more, but it's late though..sorry.
I think not. There are the histories to be read and the "authentic texts" that I'm gathering all of this information from. Oh lemme not forget the "logic" upon gathering all of this "authentic information as well" Should I post more eloborate sayings of the prophet for you again? Oh it's too late..can't look them up right now... anyway peace.
humble_guest wrote:Also, has your god ever talked to you?
So you're suggesting that God communicated demands directly to you and reveals things to you which He does not reveal to the rest of mankind? I thought only Mormons believed that.
It's called "personal relationship". I think you know about those things if you sincerely got lessons from someone about the bible.
humble_guest wrote:I have it and I haven't gone wrong yet. God loves all of His people regardless of what they are doing, however He will come to them one day to take them "home" and under His wing. It's up to that person whether or not they want to go to Him. I think there's a story in the bible that talked about a man and his dog on the roof during the flood. This guy was certain that God was going to save him. Three people passed him by asking him if he needed a ride, but he told them that "God will save me" the guy drowned and when he went to heaven he asked God why he wasn't saved. God told him that he sent not one but 3 people to save him but he refused the gift. I need not say no more.
Right, but this can be said about anyone from any faith. This could directly be reflected back to you, from me.
You have this in your Koran too? we have this in the Bible if I'm not mistaken.
humble_guest wrote:As I said before, even if someone were to know EVERYTHING about another faith and its authenticity, they could still disbelieve. You can't prove a faith to someone, but you CAN show them that it is not corrupted by human hands.
You can't show them anything of that sort since man himself is corrupted and can corrupt things to his own liking. Such as what mohammed did in his time.
humble_guest wrote:Actually, the only people who AREN'T duped are those that believe both in their hearts and minds. People ask you to accept things ONLY on blind faith when they have doubt or lack of evidence to support themselves, and God always sends signs and Messengers to mankind. Like I was saying above, you sometimes remind me of what the eastern religions say, because they don't claim to have divine scriptures they tell you to "shut out the mind and stop thinking". The end result? People believe in their "inner god" or many gods and so forth. And I don't believe that the GoB is the word of God, but certainly more reliable than the gospels.
But since you're so much into authenticity and if you REALLY looked into the origins of the gob, then you would know that it's a midevial forgery and therefore has no bearings on the gospels of the NT.
humble_guest wrote:Sorry man, not only have I read the Bible, I've even taken bible lessons, and I can give you the email address of the person who taught me, if you don't believe that. If you are sincere, at least start with this site:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/
I thought you got Bible lessons from someone who actually knows about the bible.
Reading and understanding are two different things though. I can read Japanese and Tagalog. Doesn't mean I understand it. humble_guest wrote:Once you know the Truth about the Qur'an, you will be interested to read it, and about its Messenger.You're kidding, right?
Do you see why you need to read more?
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/
Yes, I need to read more, but showing you the flaws and inconsitences of your religion will not help you.
humble_guest wrote:Also I think there's one about the sperm coming from a man's chest cavity?
See "hadiths" above.
No use trying to "explain." sperm can't come from a chest cavity.
humble_guest wrote:Exactly and that's because of the mixing of the two different waters. And that was my point. Therefore, no miracle of barriers of water.
Please scroll back up and read what I wrote. E.g. the Mediteranean water could have a pH of 7.5 and the atlantic 6.5 and they would retain those properties and the huge atlantic would never average with the Mediteranean to bring it down to ~7 or below.
Again, note that there are spots where the PH varies, therefore the waters mix.
The Mediterranean is connected to the GIGANTIC Atlantic Ocean. Didn’t you ever wonder why they have two distinct water properties? If you have a plate full of one type of water, and pour a little of another type of water into its side, then measure the water. It’s a weighted average of their two properties, the solutions mix. This doesn’t happen with the rivers and oceans.
Yes they do. I'll have to find a link to show you.
humble_guest wrote:I'm not just a blind believer as you would think of me as.
Well yes, you're obviously intelligent. But unfortunately you don't apply the same critical thinking you do with regard to the Qur'an as you do with regard to the Bible. I still don't see how you think the Bible is more authentic as a text.
Why are you bothered by that? Are you bothered because it's not written in ARABIC? Or because it's totally different from what you were taught? I think this question has been answered by alot of the members so I won't go into it.
humble_guest wrote:I'm not so sure about that since in islam you guys are looking for proofs and authenticities.
But you yourself prove that authenticity isn't enough, you still disbelieve. Guidance can only come from God and sincerely seeking Him and repenting to Him and supplicating Him. You are a living example of how there is not enough proof in the world to convince a disbeliever.
I'm a disbeliever in LIES not TRUTH. Our LORD JESUS CHRIST is truth. He is THE TRUTH, not mohammed. If I'm branded as a disbeliever and will go to hell for that, then so be it. I'll die for Him anyway [I just hope I don't pull a Peter when and if that time comes. LOL]
humble_guest wrote:As for the Disbelievers, whether you warn them or not, it is all one for them; they do not believe. (Surah Al-Baqarah: 6)
Hmm....they could've stole that saying from the gospels.
humble_guest wrote:Actually by clearing one's mind of all thoughts is supposed to give you more concentration in the spiritual realm since most humans are more inclined to fleshly things.
I agree. But that's AFTER you've established the correct conception of God. You can't tell a polytheists to clear their mind in worship of their idols if they first base this belief on questionable texts to begin with.
Well...when a buddist clears their mind, they are not worshipping anyone. They are just clearing their mind of thoughts. As for questionable texts, in order to prove that your texts are correct, you first need to prove that the texts prior to you are not. However, I do think your beloved mohammed did get word from god that the people of the books texts are handed down by him.
humble_guest wrote:many of the people have given you proofs as well as I have [including the fallacy of the gob]
Like I said, the GoB is NOT divine revelation and has several fallacies.
Ok look at what you just said here. And look at what you said in this quote that you gave me prior to what you just said:
you said: "And I don't believe that the GoB is the word of God, but certainly more reliable than the gospels."
How can you use something that has fallicies to be more reliable? I don't get that logic.
humble_guest wrote: I don't go by it in any way except to say that it offers an account of the crucifixion that does not contradict the Qur'an the way the Gospels do.
Yes, but how can you use something like that that has fallacies to support the "true account" of the crucifixion? When a convicted convict takes a stand as a prosecuting witness, obivously he made a deal so that his sentence would be less otherwise he wouldn't make the deal. However, how do we know that he's actually telling the truth? There's something to be gained for him by testifying no? Well the same thing goes for gob. You cant cut and paste from this. You either accept it all as true or none at all. Same thing goes for the Bible.
humble_guest wrote:I would much rather have a buddist, hindu OR AETHIEST neighbor rather than a muslim. Why? they are too hostile and like to force religion down your throat.
Oh come on. Do you consider me hostile? Do you feel I'm forcing religion down your throat. Look at my thread and compare who has used more derogatory, insulting, and sarcastic language.
LOL Oh you're smart and know better. I wasn't talking about you per say to be honest, however for the most part, I would much rather prefer those to what I've said to above.
humble_guest wrote:That's the flaw that's in mohammed. He made a new doctirne and that's against the teachings of Jesus Christ.
You only think that Muhammad (pbuh) made a new doctrine because you don't believe that Jesus (pbuh) taught the same Divine Unity that Muhammad did, as did Moses.
Think? No, I know this for a fact. mohammed was a charlot of his time and fooled many into his chickanery.
humble_guest wrote: That's the only reason you find a contradiction. Please read the book I've suggested to get a clear understanding of what I'm talking about.
the clear understandings can be found in the koran, the hadiths and mohammed's history. there is no way someone like that can represent the true God that we find in the life of Jesus Christ our saviour. He was the final seal and "prophet". Not mo.
humble_guest wrote:I hope you're not talking about the jews here
No I was talking about some of the pseudo-historians and apologetics you read. People who made you believe things like this:I know about your prophet and believe me he's a backwards sharlot. I don't know or understand how any man [or woman as a matter of fact] can pay homage to such a monster. I'm sorry, but it's the truth. JESUS all the way for me, thanks.
Would you read a true account of the Prophet's life if I gave it to you? Or have you chosen to rest on your convictions?
You mean you want me to only read what your people have taught you over the years and not look at both sides of the story? No way, I can't do that. That wouldn't be fair to us "trinitarians"
I have to check out both sides of the story, but not the hate ones of course.humble_guest wrote:Ok I have a good one. Jesus said marry only one woman. Mohammed said 4. OK we have a problem. someone is lying here. I know you're going to say the Bible is corrupt, but I will tell you this, Mohammed was corrupt. And yes I know he married all these women before he got his revealation and that's why he was entitled to keep more than the usual muslim man, but give me a break. Jesus says forgive them for they know not what they do, yet mohammed cursed the jews and christians. Yes, they both came directly from god.
When did Jesus (pbuh) say marry only one woman? Actually, in Islam marrying only one woman IS the norm and is most favored and suggested.
I thought you read the bible? You should know this. If not, tell me and I'll provide you passage [too tired to look now]. Tell that marrying one woman to those in afghanistan and most of the other muslim nations. I'm not talking about "the norm" The "norm" for christians is not to drink and become drunk, but there are alot of young christians that do indeed do this to "fit in" Mohammed said you can marry 2 or 3 or 4 and treat them equally. So in this sense it is normal to marry more than 1. Most men can't marry more than 1 coz they probably can't afford it.
humble_guest wrote: In addition, how many OT prophets had more than one wife? On the contary Islam is the only religion to have regulated polygamy and set rules for it. Also, a man can't marry more than one wife unless his other wife agrees.
Let's see. First off we're talking about islam right now, not christianity:
Koran 4:3 And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.
Of course mo had about 9 wives? I didn't know he was above the law of allah. Anyway. I would like you to show me where GOD in the Bible said that you could marry more than one wife? Remember I'm Christian, not Jewish.
Matthew 19:5-6, Jesus said "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and unite with his wife, and the two will become one".
Oh it's late...does anyone have that hadith or koran verse that says a man doesn't have to ask permission of his wife to take on another wife? I'm sure I saw it somewheres.
humble_guest wrote:Jesus says that a woman can be a glorious mother without giving birth, but yet adoption is forbidden in koran.
That's not even true, bro.
Sure it is. You cannot legally adopt a child. You cannot give them the father's name because you feel they will lose their "identity" They also get no inheritance if a male child is born afterwards.
humble_guest wrote:Oh really. I doubt that especially since there are other animals that are forbidden to be eaten such as the camel, the shell fish in the sea. why didn't he use that instead huh?
Man, look at yourself. Camel and shellfish aren't even forbidden. Look at how skewed your understanding of Islam is.
Well since mo stole the pig from the jews, I thought he would know about those as well? Or did he not "read" all of those Mosaic laws? Why stop at the pig? what's so special about JUST the pig?
Was it to make the jews feel better? Or was that all he heard of the most when he spoke with the jews back in his days? humble_guest wrote:My gosh...I can read you know. I see it with my own eyes. I know this post is long, but would you like me to make it longer to show about mohammed boasting about his sexuality being that of 30 men?
Read above about hadiths and how they aren't all true. People spread as many lies about the Prophet then as they do now.
You mean like how people spread lies about the gospels?
Hmmm..what goes around comes around, don't you think?humble_guest wrote:but then you could have all the slave girls you wanted.
Man, acquiring slaves is FORBIDDEN in Islam. This is exactly what I'm talking about when I tell you that you've been deceived by the disseminators of information, the wolves in sheep's clothing.
It is? PICKTHAL: And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.
Looks like a slave to me.
I could find more, but it's late though..sorry.humble_guest wrote:but the perversion is incredible in islam and I fully reject it. Peace.
That's just not true, my friend. You're basing your entire belief on falsified hadith texts.
Peace
I think not. There are the histories to be read and the "authentic texts" that I'm gathering all of this information from. Oh lemme not forget the "logic" upon gathering all of this "authentic information as well" Should I post more eloborate sayings of the prophet for you again? Oh it's too late..can't look them up right now... anyway peace.
Jesus is Love
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Liberate
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If the manuscripts were kept in a safe place in the prophet's house why would Zaid complain about the collection of the koran equivalent to moving mountains, if all he had to do was just go to the safe place in the prophet's house and get it.
Because Muslims hated to do anything that they hadn't done during the time of the Prophet. They were apprehensive and anxious about adding or subtracting any rite of worship or saying or theological point.
The fascinating thing about Zaid's apprehension is that he's making such a big deal out of just putting all the Chapters in order into a single book, whereas they had always been unordered and on separate sheets.
Exactly where are you getting the information that they were on separate sheets or any sheets for that matter, the hadith please
There is a logical problem with this if some had their own copies why panick over gathering another copy to collate the koran, was Zaid so worried that he was scared of just getting another copy (surely it says the same thing as all the others) and using it, why would Abu Bakr ask Zaid to collect the koran if other people already had their own copies
Because remember that all the companions took their own notes on exegesis and diacritics. There were 7 variant readings (pronunciations) and everyone took explanatory notes from the Prophet on the meaning of the verses.
Exegesis and diacritics, why exactly isn't there any material from the jews or christians of Moses giving variant diacritics for the books of the old testament which he wrote, or David for the psalms, or Samuel for judges, or the authors of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Do you realise how ridiculous this looks that the same God responsible for both previous revelations would suddenly now start giving revelations in different diacritics.
The text of course was the same as all the others, the apprehension was about getting the hundreds of people who had memorized the Qur'an together for the momentous task.
Your evidence from the hadiths please for this statement
Abu Bakr asked Zaid to make a copy from which other copies could be made, instead of having all the companions keep their own rough copies on various writing materials, they wanted a complete text, cover to cover , instead of letting everyone continue to read from papyrus, leaves, and scapula bones.
The website you gave me specifically said others had their own copies <--- does this indictate they had copies of leaves, papyrus and scapula bones, please indicate which hadith you are obtaining this material from.
In addition, the mass production of the Qur'an was underway
Mass production? you mean the seven copies Uthmann sent to the 7 provinces?
I hope you have noticed that I have dealt with islamic material alone, I have not referred you to any website, can you not show me the same courtesy instead of referring me to a bunch of websites that contradict and romanticize your own hadiths.
I seriously don't know what you mean bro, the ones I posted don't contradict any hadiths. I wish you would just sit down and try to understand them so you can finally realize how meticulous the compilation of the Qur'an was.
I have stressed several times now through my posts that I would like you to conduct this conversation without referring me to a website, have I once referred you to a website can you not show me the same courtesy?
Several times during our conversation I could have simply just put in a barrage of links and say here go 'read', I do not do this because I am not here to read from an apologetic website, I am here to find out what you know based on your own scripture and religious material and your God given logic alone which is all any religion can work with, if I needed to obtain material from a website fair enough I extract the RELEVANT material and put it in my point of view, I do not refer you to a series of links and sublinks that expand into volumes and expect the other individual to sift through a plethora of muslim apologetic material.
I notice you mention understanding those links, you do realise you are sending me muslim apologetic material aimed at muslims, in other words to believe and 'understand' the material on the websites I would have to start thinking like a muslim, do you realise how circular logic this is, this is why I am not referring you to a website I am trying to conduct a discussion based on the religious material and our God given logic alone.
We might as well not have this discussion if all you are going to tell me is go 'read', imagine having a debate and you just walked up to the other party and gave them a barrage of muslim apologetic material and said here go 'read' and left the debate, what exactly is the point? How do I even know if the apologetic material is your point of view, this is the essence of debate arguing your point logically not referring someone to a website, this is what I have been trying to stress to you for the last 3 or 4 posts now.
What is the point of our discussion if all you do is point me to a mass page document of apologetic material and say 'read', have you noticed all I have done with you is apply our God given logic amidst your quran and sunnah, I was hoping for a discussion in your own words is that so hard?
Bro, I WANT to have a discussion with you, but right now any discussion we would have would be fruitless because we don't share the same basic principles or sets of facts. You're coming to me from the perspective that the Qur'an wasn't even written down during the time of the Prophet, when non-Muslims and Muslim academics alike both know this is ridiculous. Once you read my links, you will have a different understanding and can re-aproach the issue and ask more educated questions.
Read my post above
How about Joshua, Samuel, David or any of the other authors of the 66 books in the bible, surely there would have been one occurence one mention of these fascinating symptoms whenever God brought a revelation to them?, the old testament does not shy from such issues it shows the good and the bad, it would have mentioned something as the prophets collapsing foaming at the mouth whenever they received a revelation from God.
The Old and New Testaments actually say nothing about any of the Prophets' actions when they received revelations.
That isn't true, the manner in which God spoke to Samuel and many of the other prophets are crystal clear, there was no foaming in the mouth occurence, or camel sounds, I find it unbelievable if this was the standard physical behaviour of a prophet of God when he received revelations how no one remotely mentions it for over 3,000+ yrs except for Mohammed.
You're being so blindered by not thinking from an objective perspective. If you actually believed this was revelation from God, wouldn't you want to see WHAT was revealed instead of doubting the manner you'd expect revelation to be revealed.
Thinking from an objective perspective is exactly what I am trying to do, and I am hoping you do likewise, if for 3,000+ years no one has remotely mentioned such an occurence while the other alternative, ringing bells, heart palpitations, sweating under cold conditions is synonymous with demonic activity tell me exactly what am I supposed to think is happening during these revelations?
Yes, Joseph Smith was very calm when he was making up his stories, that doesn't mean he was credible.
It is good you mention him, and it is also good you are quick to judge his alledged revelations from Gabriel as lies, he used to spend long periods of time in a cave all by himself until angel Gabriel came to him, does this sound familiar?
According to your hadiths, it was built by God with adam to conduct morning prayers, later destroyed and rebuilt by Abraham and Ishmael, ofcourse there is no archaelogical evidence for this or any other evidence other than islam, how about the alternative scenario of Mohammed practicing politics by trying to bribe the pagans into his new religion by claiming what they already practiced such as venerating the black stone was really done by the patriachs so they can continue doing it but do it now under his new religion, this sounds much more logical (and is what is agreed upon by many an islamuc scholar) than God built it with Adam for morning prayers.
Bro you can believe whatever you want,
It doesn't matter wether I believe it or not, this is material from your sunnah, compulsory according to the spiritual heads of Mecca and Medina on all muslims.
So what did they think of Jesus, did they believe He was a Son of God, did they believe He was just another prophet? if they did so you do realise they longer qualify as christians, they might as well be jews, are you sure you are not confusing sects of judaism in the arabian peninsula as your unitarians?
I have the scripture that says He said that.
Yes, and Hindus have a scripture also. What I'm asking is, how do you know that what the Scripture said Jesus said, is actually what he said? You make fun of the hadiths all the time but of course you realize that any authentic hadith is less questionable than the transmission and authenticity of the Bible. Mankind is required to use its mind to determine whether what they believe and live by is actually God's word. Look at all the signs of the Qur'an and compare them to the Bible.
Read my first post, all we have to judge a religion is it's scripture.
Do you honestly think Mohammed would get his scribes together and tell them this is the revelation from allah I received this morning..." Say....". It is believed the say: in the koran was added and is not in the original arabic by many.
People believe what they want to believe, bro. The Qur'an was memorized in those words by hundreds since it was revealed to the Prophet. Nothing that was transcribed differed from what was memorized and this is a fact. This double system of transmission is precisely what protects the Qur'an from any change. 600 pages committed to memory by thousands.
what exactly is the point of memorising something if the whole essense of it is a lie to the true beliefs, you do realise this is a logical fallacy?, so something is true because it is memorised?
Then ask yourself why did Mohammed put it there and claim allah revealed this message to him as the final messenger, do you not see that t is eerily convenient that allah is giving in the whims of his prophet, there is no evidence of any previous message from the two previous revelations where God tells his prophet to put down in his holy text that He said no one should raise their voice above that of him, simple logic tells me there is a fine line between allah and mohammed.
Muhammad didn't put anything "there", bro. And what do you mean it's convenient. We're talking about the Messenger of God, here, don't you think he is favored slightly by God and protected?
The God in the old and new testament is no respecter of persons, I believe there is a hadith that allah had to prove himself to mohammed by showing him his thigh, little hadiths like these and special concessions to the prophet in the koran to the point that he can surplus his own laws of 4 wives and 3 month waiting for iddah before marrying a widow makes him and his god suspect.
Rest assured I read it, I also noticed it was some several pages of exergesis and links on the ONE prophecy, it looked like the writer was trying to shift focus that THIS IS THE ONLY MAJOR PROPHECY IN THE KORAN by writting chunks of irrelevant material about it a case of quantity to replace quality, If I tell you "Bush will defeat Saddam in 3 months and it takes over 12 months" have I successfully made a prophecy?
Well here are some others:
Just state the prophecies let us discuss it, there is no need to refer me to a link what exactly are you hiding by being this evasive?
Have you heard of the Holy Furqan?
haha yes! Wow, please take that to anyone who knows Classical Arabic and has studied the Qur'an and see what they tell you. I can't believe you think that just because people wrote a book in Arabic that is modeled after the Qur'an that it even remotely measures up. How can you put your trust in that when you aren't even sure? Or are you just secure in thinking that since a group of Christians did it, that the matter is settled?
What is more revealing is that AOL had to shut down the website where it was originally (surely if it was such a bad attempt they would have let it stay for further proof no one could match the sura) posted because muslims were offended, do you not realise even if a sura like it was created muslims would still get offended? how exactly are people going to rise to the challenge of the koran to write a sura like it if muslims will not stand for it.
Well the solomon stories I believed is plagiarised from the II Targum of Esther.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBsheba.html
Do you notice I could have obtained that information from a website, do you notice I extracted the relevant information, I could simply have pasted a plethora of web links and said "go read" leaving you to sift through the material yourself to prove my point do you realise how academically dishonest this tactic is? What is the point of having a logical discussion at all which is what I am trying to do, apologetic websites aim to defend the faith to BELIEVERS I am not a believer I am trying to reason out the discrepancy with logic and the scriptures available. Do you mind doing the same?
Think about why this sura is there, think about it logically, isn't it a little bit strange that Mohammed needs his allah to justify a sura that he is not plagiarising when the unbelievers, jews and pagans were laughing at him for just that.
Bro, the unbelievers always laugh, it makes no difference to them and I wouldn't guage veracity by what they do or do not laugh at. I think the more interesting thing is the fact that knowledgeable Jews and Christians converted to Islam at that time.
Here is a classic example of my major contention with your whole debate tactic, you claimed that the pagans and arabs if they knew the koran was plagiarised with stories would have accused mohammed and you state further there was no evidence of Mohammed being accused, I showed you a sura that says just that the arab pagans were accusing Mohammed of plagiarising and you respond with so what if they laugh, instead of acknowledging your mistake that you were wrong on the pagans not accusing Mohammed of plagiarism you suddenly focus on a moot point in my argument, tactics like these make you look dishonest
So says every religion, how do we know what is true judge the message from their scriptures that is all we have and the lifestyle of the messenger, when the contradictions start to pile up in the lifestyle of the alledged messenger of God to the point that it defies the morality of the common humanist something should be scrutinised.
Absolutely it should be scrutinized. For your own sake you better hope that the version of the story you're relying on is the accurate one. Your gambling with your afterlife if you're going to take Rodin's word on the life of the Prophet Muhammad. Defies the morality of a humanist? May God forgive you for that one.
All my information from islam come from islamic sources the koran and the sunnah.
I believe humanists in this day and age do not cut off arms and limbs and leave people starving in the desert with their eyes plucked out till they die.
I believe humanists do not go about destroying jewish towns and selling their women and children into slavery.
I could go on but I think you get the picture.
You misunderstand what I am trying to say, I don't understand why you would think I am angry, why don't you ask yourself why Hagar is not there not even in the hadiths; think about it.
Where do you think the arabised word "Hagar" came from? The Prophet recounted the entire story of Hagar and Ishmael. What's the point you're trying to make?
[/quote]
My mistake there is a mention of Hagar/ajar/ in the hadiths, my original point of her not being mentioned in the koran is a notable omission why isn't she in there?, isn't she Abraham's wife and the mother of Ishmael ?suirely if Mohammed thought she was Abraham's wife she would at least get a mention as the mother and the wife of the man that gave him his prophetic lineage. Hagar was an egyptian maidservant to the pharoah who was given to Abraham this is in the bible, the hadith twist on the biblical story:
"Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "The Prophet Abraham emigrated with Sarah and entered a village where there was a king or a tyrant. (The king) was told that Abraham had entered (the village) accompanied by a woman who was one of the most charming women. So, the king sent for Abraham and asked, 'O Abraham! Who is this lady accompanying you?' Abraham replied, 'She is my sister (i.e. in religion).' Then Abraham returned to her and said, 'Do not contradict my statement, for I have informed them that you are my sister. By Allah, there are no true believers on this land except you and I.' Then Abraham sent her to the king. When the king got to her, she got up and performed ablution, prayed and said, 'O Allah! If I have believed in You and Your Apostle, and have saved my private parts from everybody except my husband, then please do not let this pagan overpower me.' On that the king fell in a mood of agitation and started moving his legs. Seeing the condition of the king, Sarah said, 'O Allah! If he should die, the people will say that I have killed him.' The king regained his power, and proceeded towards her but she got up again and performed ablution, prayed and said, 'O Allah! If I have believed in You and Your Apostle and have kept my private parts safe from all except my husband, then please do not let this pagan overpower me.' The king again fell in a mood of agitation and started moving his legs. On seeing that state of the king, Sarah said, 'O Allah! If he should die, the people will say that I have killed him.' The king got either two or three attacks, and after recovering from the last attack he said, 'By Allah! You have sent a satan to me. Take her to Abraham and give her Ajar.' So she came back to Abraham and said, 'Allah humiliated the pagan and gave us a slavegirl for service." Bukhari 3 420
Think what is implied here, this contradicts the muslim view of Hagar that she was Abraham's wife, it even has Sarah saying allah has given her and Abraham a slave girl (ajar), think about the implications of this. the mother of the arabs is a slave girl, this hadith agrees with what christianity/judaism has always said.
I find your above statement interesting, so God doesn't really care that we know the message is from Him? by sending us something that makes chronological sense to us?
The Qur'an makes chronological sense, bro, the stories in the order of the chapters just aren't in chronological order.
I don't see how something can make chronological sense if it is not in chronological order.
In fact, as in the case with the story of Abraham, that makes more chronological sense than the Biblical version.
From Al Tabari (2: pp. 82-86)
"The earliest sages of our Prophet's nation disagree about which of Abraham's two sons it was that he was commanded to sacrifice. Some say it was Isaac, while others say it was Ishmael. Both views are supported by statements related on the authority of the Messenger of God. If both groups of statements were equally sound, then - since they both came from the Prophet - only the Quran could serve as proof that the account naming Isaac is clearly the more truthful of the two."
Exactly. Unnamed child is born. Second child, Isaac, is born. This is in the Qur'an. Doesn't take more than one step of deduction.
I suggest you read the quote from Al Tabari again where the quote begins and where the quote ends, those are not my words, please read the parts I have put in bold.
When an alledged messenger denies the message of the two previous revelations, and claims they are both corrupt. Wouldn't you?
On the contrary, he says that the messages were the same but the corruptions made them different.
The burden of proof for a corrupt document is for you to produce an uncorrupted document proving the current document has been altered beyond recognition, do you realise claiming corruption without evidence you can basically defend anything, that the true god is baal and the jews christians and muslims have corrupted the true message of baal.
Is this really logical thinking? something is corrupt you have no evidence for this, it is implied in your scriptures so it must be true, this is the whole purpose of my discussion with you let us reason with the God given logic afforded to us.
I wonder if you have read the hadiths of Ishaq, Bukhari, Muslim and Tabari I obtained all this information from, rest assured I am not making this up, not getting them from apologetic sites I am getting them from your religious material.
Ok so post them here then just so I don't here your summaries of them.
Suppose I just suddenly decided to post you a myriad of web links and I told you to go 'read', wouldn't you think I was trying to be evasive of your question? this is exactly what you do when I ask you a question.
"Stealing from the honest hardworking pagan businessmen" sounds a lot like "and the poor army of Pharoah drowned when God closed the sea upon them as they were hunting down the children of Israel"
This is just a sample:
Qur’an 8:1 “They ask you about the benefits of capturing the spoils of war. Tell them: ‘The benefits belong to Allah and to His Messenger.’” (why has no other prophet claim that the spoils of war belong to God and him (the prophet) before?
Ishaq:510 “We ask Thee for the booty of this town and its people. Forward in the name of Allah.’ He used to say this of every town he raided.” (suppose Mohammed simply wanted the town's booty and he just used religion to justify it)
Ishaq:327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring.
.’” (I would really like to know what you have to say about this)But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion
Tabari VII:64/Ishaq:307 “The Messenger of Allah gave orders concerning the contents of the camp which the people had collected, and it was all brought together. Among the Muslims, however, there was a difference of opinion concerning it. Those who had collected it said, ‘It is ours. Muhammad promised every man that he could keep the booty he took.’ Those who were fighting said, ‘If it had not been for us, you would not have taken it. We distracted the enemy from you so that you could take what you took.’ Those who were guarding the Prophet for fear the enemy would attack him said, ‘By Allah, you have no better right to it than we have. We wanted to kill the enemy when Allah gave us the opportunity and made them turn their backs, and we wanted to take property when there was no one to protect it ( Taking property when there was no one to protect it is known as stealing, as I recall and which Mohammed should have recalled too " Thou shalt not steal was never abrogated in christianity) ; but we were afraid that the Meccans might attack the Prophet. We protected him so you have no better right to it than we have.’ When we quarreled about the booty we became very bad tempered. So Allah removed it from us and handed it over to His Messenger.” ( do you see how convenient Mohammed obtained the spoils of this particular raid he just claimed allah said give it all to me)
Bukhari:V5B59N360 “The total number of Muslim fighters from Mecca who fought at Badr and were given a share of the booty, were 81. When their shares were distributed, their number was 101. But Allah knows it better.”
Ishaq:307 “The ‘Spoils of War’ Surah came down from Allah to His Prophet concerning the distribution of the booty when the Muslims showed their evil nature. Allah took it out of their hands and gave it to the Apostle.”
Tabari VII:65 “Allah’s Messenger came back to Medina, bringing with him the booty which had been taken from the polytheists.... There were forty-four captives in the Messenger of Allah’s possession. There was a similar number of dead.”
Bukhari:V5B59N512 “The captives of Khaybar were divided among the Muslims. Then the Messenger began taking the homes and property that were closest to him.”
Tabari VIII:116/Ishaq:511 “So Muhammad began seizing their herds and their property bit by bit. He conquered home by home. The Messenger took some of its people captive, including Safiyah and her two cousins. The Prophet chose Safiyah for himself.”
Ishaq:511 “When Dihyah protested, wanting to keep Safiyah for himself, the Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims.” (Killing husbands and distriubting their married women as cattle amongst yourselves is not something associated with God, the previous revelation has nothing to do with this injustice)
Tabari VIII:130 “The Prophet conquered Khaybar by force after fighting. Khaybar was something that Allah gave as booty to His Messenger. He took one-fifth of it and divided the remainder among the Muslims.” ( I ask again which previous prophet awarded himself 1/5th of spoils in war, I recall the israelites were punished because someone took booty to the point that they were severely beaten by their enemies in the ensuing war, don't you see how convenient it is for Mohammed to award himself 1/5th of booty, stripped of all religious connotations it is simple logic that Mohammed just wanted that booty).
Bukhari V4B52N46 “I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, ‘Allah guarantees that He will admit the Muslim fighter into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return him to his home safely with rewards and booty.’” ( win win situation? you either get matyred or booty)
Men who spend nights in caves worshipping pagan dieties all their lives till they are in their forties have to be scrutinised when they purport to have recevied a revelation from God, how do we know it is from God or the devil especially when the message conflicts the two previous revelations agreed upon as coming from God, surely you see the logic in this?
The Prophet NEVER worshipped any pagan deities. How do you know it is from God? You look at the Qur'an and you look at the life of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and decide. But you better look earnestly.
Tabari VI:67 “Aisha reported: ‘Solitude became dear to Muhammad and he used to seclude himself in the cave of Hira where he would engage in the Tahannuth worship for a number of nights before returning to Khadija and getting provisions for a like period, till truth came upon him while he was in a cave.
What you have to ask your self is what is Tahannuth?
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humble_guest
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you said: "And I don't believe that the GoB is the word of God, but certainly more reliable than the gospels."
How can you use something that has fallicies to be more reliable? I don't get that logic.
It has fallacies and yet is more reliable than the gospels in describing Jesus' days before his ascension.
Yes, but how can you use something like that that has fallacies to support the "true account" of the crucifixion?
I don't use it to support the true account, I said it at least doesn't contradict the Qur'an account, which is something we can't say about the gospels.
You cannot give them the father's name because you feel they will lose their "identity"
So they won't lose their lineage.
Well since mo stole the pig from the jews, I thought he would know about those as well? Or did he not "read" all of those Mosaic laws? Why stop at the pig? what's so special about JUST the pig? Was it to make the jews feel better? Or was that all he heard of the most when he spoke with the jews back in his days?
How do you know the Jewish Laws were the Mosaic Laws? And what do you mean "why stop at pigs?"
Looks like a slave to me. I could find more, but it's late though..sorry.
So how does one acquire a slave in Islam?
Do you realise how ridiculous this looks that the same God responsible for both previous revelations would suddenly now start giving revelations in different diacritics.
Do you know what diacritics are? The Qur'an was revealed in the same way throughout. However, the qur'an can be recited in 7 variant readings. The text itself is the same, but the pronunciations are a function of the dotting on the letters.
Several times during our conversation I could have simply just put in a barrage of links and say here go 'read', I do not do this because I am not here to read from an apologetic website, I am here to find out what you know based on your own scripture and religious material and your God given logic alone which is all any religion can work with, if I needed to obtain material from a website fair enough I extract the RELEVANT material and put it in my point of view, I do not refer you to a series of links and sublinks that expand into volumes and expect the other individual to sift through a plethora of muslim apologetic material.
But everything on those links is relevant. I wish you'd read it all. I wouldn't care if you referred me to links if you thought they were all relevant. If you don't want to read, don't. I think that's the major problem here. I'm not bogging you down with links, I'm handpicking the ones that you should most read.
I notice you mention understanding those links, you do realise you are sending me muslim apologetic material aimed at muslims, in other words to believe and 'understand' the material on the websites I would have to start thinking like a muslim,
Why is that? What in the sites forces you to think from a Muslim's perspective? Except for the fact that you'd have to drop your idle suspicion?
We might as well not have this discussion if all you are going to tell me is go 'read', imagine having a debate and you just walked up to the other party and gave them a barrage of muslim apologetic material and said here go 'read' and left the debate, what exactly is the point? How do I even know if the apologetic material is your point of view, this is the essence of debate arguing your point logically not referring someone to a website, this is what I have been trying to stress to you for the last 3 or 4 posts now.
Ok let me summarize for you exactly what's happening.
Every post you ask a series of questions, most of which require some serious background information, little of it is theological, and MUCH of it is historical and technical (regarding hadith transmission or diacritics for example).
I give you reliable links which basically tell you everything you'd ever want to know, which if read, answer all your questions.
You don't read them, and post the same questions, or other questions answered on the sites. Mostly because the site I gave tries to cover what answering-islam asks, which is where you're coming from.
tell me exactly what am I supposed to think is happening during these revelations?
Take a look at what was revealed. I can't believe you seriously entertain the thought that a malicious being was revealing the Qur'an. This is one of the more unique polemics I've heard.
I believe there is a hadith that allah had to prove himself to mohammed by showing him his thigh,
Well then bring the hadith, and we'll examine its authenticity. How many times do I have to tell you that there were people who disbelieved, like yourself, during and after the time of the Prophet, who when asked if they had heard the Prophet say anything, they would make something up.
What is more revealing is that AOL had to shut down the website where it was originally (surely if it was such a bad attempt they would have let it stay for further proof no one could match the sura) posted because muslims were offended, do you not realise even if a sura like it was created muslims would still get offended? how exactly are people going to rise to the challenge of the koran to write a sura like it if muslims will not stand for it.
Nobody is stopping anyone from doing it, in fact there are institutes in Britain dedicated to it, and just because people were offended doesn't mean the challenge was remotely met.
Here is a classic example of my major contention with your whole debate tactic, you claimed that the pagans and arabs if they knew the koran was plagiarised with stories would have accused mohammed and you state further there was no evidence of Mohammed being accused, I showed you a sura that says just that the arab pagans were accusing Mohammed of plagiarising and you respond with so what if they laugh, instead of acknowledging your mistake that you were wrong on the pagans not accusing Mohammed of plagiarism you suddenly focus on a moot point in my argument, tactics like these make you look dishonest
Well to be honest with you, I know that verse. And what I should have said was, why wasn't any proof presented then? The accusations were as idle then as they are now. How did the plagiarism take place and when. What was the scenario? This is what we have to ask when we want to present an alternative to the proposed explanation.
This is good, and it's a quick and easy read:
http://www.ymofmd.com/books/prophethood ... mproph.htm
I believe humanists in this day and age do not cut off arms and limbs
They also don't believe in God to believe in upholding His laws. If you were commanded by God to do something, a law ordaining a punishment for a crime, would you or would you not obey it? Keep in mind you are sure it is from God.
I believe humanists do not go about destroying jewish towns and selling their women and children into slavery.
You mean this? Or something else?
http://www.jews-for-allah.org/jewish-my ... killed.htm
Think what is implied here, this contradicts the muslim view of Hagar that she was Abraham's wife, it even has Sarah saying allah has given her and Abraham a slave girl (ajar), think about the implications of this. the mother of the arabs is a slave girl, this hadith agrees with what christianity/judaism has always said.
Wait, so what did you think the Muslims said about Hajar? And why are you giving so much importance to the "mother of all arabs," a term I've never heard and don't even use?
I don't see how something can make chronological sense if it is not in chronological order.
The Qur'an will talk about Jesus (pbuh) then later talk about Lot for example. The stories themselves will be in chronological order, but between themselves they are not.
Is this really logical thinking? something is corrupt you have no evidence for this, it is implied in your scriptures so it must be true, this is the whole purpose of my discussion with you let us reason with the God given logic afforded to us.
You'd be right, if I was just claiming this. But the proof is the Qur'an itself. The day you can show it is manmade or can even be emulated and ignore its miracles is the day you make your case, bro.
Suppose I just suddenly decided to post you a myriad of web links and I told you to go 'read', wouldn't you think I was trying to be evasive of your question? this is exactly what you do when I ask you a question.
I spend time to pick links that, if you read them, would have answered every single one of your questions.
Instead, you don't even read them, assume they wouldn't have helped, then wonder why your questions aren't answered.
You basically paraphrase rebuttals from the answering-islam website. Well you might as well link me then because that's not useful. I don't mind being linked and will read what you post as long as you do the same.
Thou shalt not steal was never abrogated in christianity)
It's not stealing when it's the spoils of war against people who are trying to destroy God's religion and God commanded it.
( do you see how convenient Mohammed obtained the spoils of this particular raid he just claimed allah said give it all to me)
And where did the Prophet distribute it? Go read how poorly the Prophet chose to live and read about where these spoils all went. Isn't that basically what you're suggesting, that the Prophet was rich or something?
( win win situation? you either get matyred or booty)
With God, it's always a win-win situation. Especially for the poor to whom the booty is distributed. I still don't see how this differs from the "Pharoah's armies" parallel. If God had ordained Moses should take the Egyptians' spoils of war, would you be equally horrified?
( I ask again which previous prophet awarded himself 1/5th of spoils in war, I recall the israelites were punished because someone took booty to the point that they were severely beaten by their enemies in the ensuing war, don't you see how convenient it is for Mohammed to award himself 1/5th of booty, stripped of all religious connotations it is simple logic that Mohammed just wanted that booty).
And I ask you, what did the Prophet do with this booty?
What you have to ask your self is what is Tahannuth?
It means "ta'abbud" devotional exercises. The devotional exercises of the pagans were called "devotional exercises" as are the "devotional exercises" of any other religion. That's what happens with Arabic words, they carry through with their meanings. Or are you suggesting that the Prophet was once a pagan but then become the most devout Muslim?
What exactly is your allegatoin against the Prophet. You've almost been through every single possible polemic raised, they can't all have happened simultaneously, so what exactly is your version of the story? Piece together what it is you want to say.
Just post your links, it makes it easier for me to understand what you're saying.
Peace
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
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Peace humble guest,
Actually the whole ancient world believed that Jesus died, He difinitely was crucified, and died, and rose again. The Jews have killed some of their prophets, to say Jesus was killed by the Jews is not a far fetched belief.
Jesus not being crucified, but having is appear so?
What exactly does that mean?
Show love to them!
God will defeat evil people at Judgement.
That is HIS job. He is the Judge.
We must pray for our enemies and act with peace an kindness even to those who hate us and seek to kill us.
A true Martyr is one who is loving and peaceful, but who is mercilessly killed. They shall recieve great rewards in heaven.
God's Word was given by Jesus Christ and God would not speak against His own Word!
Abraham was tested by God, but God did not want Him to kill his son!
In summary, you follow the words of a false god and your prophet acted in opposition of Jesus Christ and His Godly teachings!
Muhammed will pay an great price for his wrathful warcrimes.
That was a rare instance when Jesus was angry, but The did not kill anyone, rather He freed imprisoned animals.
That is not realistic.
Muhammed oftentimes acted in DIRECT OPPOSITION to what Jesus Christ did. clearly they are not prophets from the same God.
Jeus taught us love and mercy and kindness and nonviolence.
Muhammed lacked love and was often violent.
With his hands he brought death upon people!
Where according to Islam is this Dajjal supposed to appear???
Who will defeat him?
Is he a jinn or some supernatural being disguised as a man?
[Yet they did not kill him nor crucify him, but it was only made to appear to them so. And surely those who disagree about it are doubtful and have no knowledge of it, but only follow conjecture, and certainly they did not kill him-] (Qur’an 4:157)
There is not a single piece of evidence that negates the Qur’an’s account, primarily because there can never be historical proof that would appeared to have transpired actually transpired
Actually the whole ancient world believed that Jesus died, He difinitely was crucified, and died, and rose again. The Jews have killed some of their prophets, to say Jesus was killed by the Jews is not a far fetched belief.
Jesus not being crucified, but having is appear so?
What exactly does that mean?
Wait a minute. So what exactly do you think Muslims are commanded to do to "their enemies"? I'm interested to know.
Show love to them!
God will defeat evil people at Judgement.
That is HIS job. He is the Judge.
We must pray for our enemies and act with peace an kindness even to those who hate us and seek to kill us.
A true Martyr is one who is loving and peaceful, but who is mercilessly killed. They shall recieve great rewards in heaven.
So in summary, you would disobey God's direct command. Compare that to what the Prophet Abraham did when he was commanded by God.
God's Word was given by Jesus Christ and God would not speak against His own Word!
Abraham was tested by God, but God did not want Him to kill his son!
In summary, you follow the words of a false god and your prophet acted in opposition of Jesus Christ and His Godly teachings!
Muhammed will pay an great price for his wrathful warcrimes.
Jesus (pbuh) took God's commands very seriously. Remember the money changers in the temple?
That was a rare instance when Jesus was angry, but The did not kill anyone, rather He freed imprisoned animals.
WWJD, WWMD, they would have done the same things, i.e. obeyed God.
That is not realistic.
Muhammed oftentimes acted in DIRECT OPPOSITION to what Jesus Christ did. clearly they are not prophets from the same God.
Jeus taught us love and mercy and kindness and nonviolence.
Muhammed lacked love and was often violent.
With his hands he brought death upon people!
Well these aren't just light shows or anything, he has the ability to perform visual miracles and resurrect people and other things which the weak of faith who won't recognize him would immediately fall for. That's not to say he isn't a demagogue, but I think the miracles help just a bit.
Where according to Islam is this Dajjal supposed to appear???
Who will defeat him?
Is he a jinn or some supernatural being disguised as a man?
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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humble_guest
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Show love to them!
God will defeat evil people at Judgement.
That is HIS job. He is the Judge.
We must pray for our enemies and act with peace an kindness even to those who hate us and seek to kill us.
A true Martyr is one who is loving and peaceful, but who is mercilessly killed. They shall recieve great rewards in heaven.
I agree, but a Muslim is commanded to defend his family and property if it is unlawfully and forcibly taken away from him or an oppressed person. This is where it is legitimate to fight. Do you agree with this or not?
Muhammed oftentimes acted in DIRECT OPPOSITION to what Jesus Christ did. clearly they are not prophets from the same God.
Jeus taught us love and mercy and kindness and nonviolence.
Muhammed lacked love and was often violent.
With his hands he brought death upon people!
The commandment is "Thou shalt not murder" in Hebrew, not "thou shalt not kill". There are instances when one MUST defend the oppressed. There is nothing that Muhammad (pbuh) did that Jesus would not have done.
John the Baptist and the Essenes organized themselves against the Romans as well.
Where according to Islam is this Dajjal supposed to appear???
Who will defeat him?
Is he a jinn or some supernatural being disguised as a man?
Where according to Islam is this Dajjal supposed to appear???
His emergence is somewhere in the Persian region, and he moves westward collecting followers. His first followers will be the Jews of Persia.
Who will defeat him?
The believers will fight the followers of the anti-Christ, but only Jesus (pbuh) is able to destroy the man.
Is he a jinn or some supernatural being disguised as a man?
No, he's a man, but he is endowed with unusual feats (they are lies and trickery, and it's not surprising that many of his followers will practice magic and the occult). Nonetheless, only believers are protected from the awe of his miracles.
Peace bro
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Believer
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Peace humble guest,
Yes, I do agree with you!
But Muhammed at many times was offensive!
What would you do if you're a Persian or Jew and you see an army of Muslims ready to attack your village, and they invade and destroy your temple and press you to convert to their religion.
Would you convert or fight?
Who is the agressor?
Who is the enemy of God?
The opressed "infidel" whose religion and culture is suppressed?
Or the agressive army seeking to spread their faith with swords and browbeating?
From a Hadith I gave, this verse strikes me:
Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute);
"you" is the ambassador of Khosrau, the Shah of the Persian empire.
Muhammed wants his followers to fight Persia and Byzantium until they submit to Islam and accept the Jizya.
How is Muhammed NOT being agressive and evil with such orders???
Is it acceptable to God, as Muhammed has done, to spread religion by threats and millitary force?
The Jews only expect their Messiah to be Jewish, how can they fall for a Persian?
What happens after the Dajjal is destroyed?
I agree, but a Muslim is commanded to defend his family and property if it is unlawfully and forcibly taken away from him or an oppressed person. This is where it is legitimate to fight. Do you agree with this or not?
Yes, I do agree with you!
But Muhammed at many times was offensive!
What would you do if you're a Persian or Jew and you see an army of Muslims ready to attack your village, and they invade and destroy your temple and press you to convert to their religion.
Would you convert or fight?
Who is the agressor?
Who is the enemy of God?
The opressed "infidel" whose religion and culture is suppressed?
Or the agressive army seeking to spread their faith with swords and browbeating?
The commandment is "Thou shalt not murder" in Hebrew, not "thou shalt not kill". There are instances when one MUST defend the oppressed. There is nothing that Muhammad (pbuh) did that Jesus would not have done.
From a Hadith I gave, this verse strikes me:
Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute);
"you" is the ambassador of Khosrau, the Shah of the Persian empire.
Muhammed wants his followers to fight Persia and Byzantium until they submit to Islam and accept the Jizya.
How is Muhammed NOT being agressive and evil with such orders???
Is it acceptable to God, as Muhammed has done, to spread religion by threats and millitary force?
His emergence is somewhere in the Persian region, and he moves westward collecting followers. His first followers will be the Jews of Persia.
The Jews only expect their Messiah to be Jewish, how can they fall for a Persian?
The believers will fight the followers of the anti-Christ, but only Jesus (pbuh) is able to destroy the man.
What happens after the Dajjal is destroyed?
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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humble_guest
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But Muhammed at many times was offensive!
What would you do if you're a Persian or Jew and you see an army of Muslims ready to attack your village, and they invade and destroy your temple and press you to convert to their religion.
Would you convert or fight?
Who is the agressor?
Who is the enemy of God?
The opressed "infidel" whose religion and culture is suppressed?
Or the agressive army seeking to spread their faith with swords and browbeating?
This is not true bro, no one was ever forced to convert to Islam. Here I answered this in another thread:
But when are you claiming Islam was ever spread by fighting? Nobody was ever forced to convert, on the contrary the whole point of the growth of the Islamic state is so that NO Christian or Jew would have to be subservient to their "human" kings in places like Byzantine and Persia. The point was to allow religious minorities to live by their religious laws but not have to be forced by their empires' civil laws or kings to be servile.
"you" is the ambassador of Khosrau, the Shah of the Persian empire.
Muhammed wants his followers to fight Persia and Byzantium until they submit to Islam and accept the Jizya.
How is Muhammed NOT being agressive and evil with such orders???
Is it acceptable to God, as Muhammed has done, to spread religion by threats and millitary force?
I think the reason you're having trouble seeing this is because you're not thinking from the perspective that there is a right and wrong way to worship in the sight of God. Praying to objects and people is wrong, and this was a declaration showing that the news of Islam must be spread to the people of these empires, whether the emperors will permit Muslims to enter or not.
The options aren't to convert or die, on the contrary, it is to convert or live peaceably under Muslim rules and FREE your Christian and Jewish and even pagan servants from your humanistic rule and allow them religious freedom in the Islamic state.
The Jews only expect their Messiah to be Jewish, how can they fall for a Persian?
Good question. He's not Persian he's one of the Jews that live in Iran. You do know that Iran has a Jewish community, right?
What happens after the Dajjal is destroyed?
Jesus (pbuh) rules the earth with justice as had never been seen up to that point in time, for a period of forty years. Then other major signs of the End Times follow. Do you want to know more?
Peace
The Prophet (pbuh) said, "If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but God Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."
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Liberate
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Several times during our conversation I could have simply just put in a barrage of links and say here go 'read', I do not do this because I am not here to read from an apologetic website, I am here to find out what you know based on your own scripture and religious material and your God given logic alone which is all any religion can work with, if I needed to obtain material from a website fair enough I extract the RELEVANT material and put it in my point of view, I do not refer you to a series of links and sublinks that expand into volumes and expect the other individual to sift through a plethora of muslim apologetic material.
But everything on those links is relevant. I wish you'd read it all. I wouldn't care if you referred me to links if you thought they were all relevant. If you don't want to read, don't. I think that's the major problem here. I'm not bogging you down with links, I'm handpicking the ones that you should most read.
I notice you mention understanding those links, you do realise you are sending me muslim apologetic material aimed at muslims, in other words to believe and 'understand' the material on the websites I would have to start thinking like a muslim,
Why is that? What in the sites forces you to think from a Muslim's perspective? Except for the fact that you'd have to drop your idle suspicion?
We might as well not have this discussion if all you are going to tell me is go 'read', imagine having a debate and you just walked up to the other party and gave them a barrage of muslim apologetic material and said here go 'read' and left the debate, what exactly is the point? How do I even know if the apologetic material is your point of view, this is the essence of debate arguing your point logically not referring someone to a website, this is what I have been trying to stress to you for the last 3 or 4 posts now.
Ok let me summarize for you exactly what's happening.
Every post you ask a series of questions, most of which require some serious background information, little of it is theological, and MUCH of it is historical and technical (regarding hadith transmission or diacritics for example).
All my questions are to do with logic, I am not referring you a website because I realise that is a fruitless expedition.
This is the link you gave me about the alledged plagiarism of the story of the conversion of the queen of Sheba
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... sheba.html
the site puts in bold claims that date the 1st and 2nd targum of esther between the 7th and 8th century, but no such bold print for those that put it between the 4th century. Considering the first archealogical koran is agreed by scholars to be no earlier than 850AD how does this help their case?
This is the link you gave me about the alledged plagiarism of the story of Cain and Abel and whoever kills one soul has killed a whole nation. http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... CandA.html, this is what the site says "Although Stillman mentioned that Midrash Tanhuma may have been the source of the Qur'anic narration of Cain and Abel , the parallels cited do not necessarily establish "borrowing", bear in mind this Stillman is the one to criticise the authors of the books that initially alledge the plagiarism and which the authors use to support their hypothesis that there was no plagiarism how does this help their and your case?
This was a 21 page document with it's hypothesis we don't believe the cain and abel story is plagiarised in the koran because some historians (I stress some) place a late date for the jewish apocrypha books, was this so hard for you to summarise instead of having me read a 21 page apologetic material?
Reading the website I had the distinct impression " the missionaries" was a derogatory term.
This is the link you keep referring about the sources of the koran:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/
It lists textual integrity, logical consistency, miraculous features which are subdivided into supernatural eloquence (?), scientific statements far ahead of it's time, and prophecies (did you also notice there was no link for this? just plain text, I take it that link was under construction). It then mentions the sources of the quran, the issue of abrogation, the tafsir of the quran (why bother with an interpretation if this is the final revelation for mankind understandable by a child). Further along the page it launches an attack on the integrity of the bible (wait a minute, isn't this website suppose to be about the sources of the koran, or is the logic the best form of defence here is to attack).
Beginning with the textual integrity it attacks the allegation al hajjah bin Yusuf who alledgedly made 11 amendments after Uthmann as a false hadith quoting from the website "Abbad Ibn Suhayb is the isnad has been declared abandoned in hadith and all his hadith are rejected" how convenient, the 11 amendments were documented where in the quran he changed and what he changed it to what exactly did the isnad have to gain by lying here? did the isnad forsee 1400 years in the future that the fitnah will use his statement to attack allah and his prophet?. This is in your quran and sunnah compulsory on all muslims for the authors to swiftly declare this hadith as a lie and all his other hadiths lies to save face is just plain ridiculous, if everybody knew it was a lie what is it doing in the hadiths of Abu Dawod, so everything that is non contradictory in the hadiths about the good nature and irrefutability of the koran is true and everything that is contradictory about the good nature of Mohammed and irrefutablility of the koran is false, please tell me you see the logical fallacy of this stance?
It then discusses the external contradictions notably the story of Haman and the 'missionaries' allegation that no scholar can find a Haman in egypt during the time of the pharoahs, and there is no evidence in egyptiology of Pharoah ascending to heaven to meet God face to face as alledged by the koran. Considering that there was no collaboration from any scholar regarding the name Haman in egyptiology this is what the website says:
"Moreover, Ranke had noted, as a reference, a book published in 1906 by the Egyptologist Walter Wreszinski:[39] the latter had mentioned that the name of "Haman" had been engraved on a stela kept at the Hof-Museum of Vienna (Austria)".
But there is no such book published by Walter Wreszinski and his only book has no reference to any or mention of any Haman (guess where I obtained this information from?), this is like saying I heard from someone who heard that there was a haman in the cellar in austria, if this is true this is evidence to prove the scholars (non christian too) wrong who believe the name Haman is Baylonian , it is a major point why no references?, simply going on " I heard" is a very weak position with no references. It further alledges that the biblical Esther is a lie therefore if it is a lie the koran's account of Haman is true.
Regarding another major point of debate that crucifixtion was not practiced by the Egyptians, it quotes Gen 40:18-19 to support their stance that it was indeed practiced, this is what Genesis 40:18-19 says "Gen 40:18-19 And Joseph answered and said, This is the interpretation thereof: The three baskets are three days: (19) Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thy head from off thee, and shall hang thee on a tree; and the birds shall eat thy flesh from off thee.", this practice is more akin to beheading and gibetting where the corpse of the beheaded person is left on a tree for birds to eat, this has no similarity with crucifixtion where the individual was to suffer (with his head intact) till death.
This is what the site says about the very strange textual grammer shifts, it starts off with:
"It is not the statement of a poet - little do you believe! Nor is it the statement of a soothsayer - little do you remember! It is something sent down by the Lord of the Worlds. And if he had fabricated against Us some of the sayings, We would certainly have seized him by the right hand. Then We would certainly have cut his main artery and not one of you could have prevented it! (69.41-47). "
It then states this sura talking about third person singular to first person singular:
"So worship what you like beside Him. Say: 'The losers are those who will lose themselves and their families on the Day of Resurrection. Truly that will be a manifest loss!' They shall have sheets of fire above them and below them. That is how Allah frightens His servants. O My servants, so fear Me! (39:15f.).
Here, too, the unity of God is in question. Moreover, once again the first person singular is also necessitated by the rhyme . Do you notice how the authors contradict the very sura that this is not the statement of a poet in this case the justification for third person singular to first person singular is so that it rhymes?. It gives a ludicrous excuse for the other grammatical shifts to convey surprise, fear, attack, majesty how come God never did this for any of the previous revelations?
Have a read at what it says at the end about sura 10:22
"At first sight it may appear hopelessly garbled [ agreed ], but the three consecutive pronominal shifts are all perfectly logical. The shift from the second person plural to the third person plural objectifies the addressees and enables them to see themselves as God sees them, and to recognize how ridiculous and hypocritical their behaviour is. The shift back to the second person plural marks God's turning to admonish them. Finally the speaker's shift from the third person singular to the first person plural expresses His majesty and power, which is appropriate in view of the allusion to the resurrection and judgment." Are the authors aware of how ridiculous this explantation is if purporting from coming from the same God responsible for both previous revelations.
It then discusses the scientific statements in the koran ahead of it's time with every link a link to another website, one link caught my mind the link was the quran on clouds, I hope you are aware that the koran has clouds speaking back to allah and saying " we come willingly", so I was interested to see how the authors would defend this surprise surprise it was a dead link. So I went to the main page of the site, and went to islam and science (http://www.it-is-truth.org/IslamAndScience.shtml) this is what it said "We presented to him the text outlining the development of the embryo. We proved to him (a Dr. Joe Leigh Simpson, Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, and Professor of Molecular and Human Genetics at the Baylor College of Medicine) that the Qur'aan informs us that the hereditary and the chromosomal make-up of the new being take place only after a successful union between the sperm and the ovum."
all this obtained from this sura "Woe to man! What has made him reject Allah? From what stuff has He created him? From a sperm-drop: He has created him, and then molded him in due proportion. (Qur'aan 80:17-19)" is all that the author stated implied by this sura? This statement is not worthy of a comment I wonder if they bothered to recite the hadith that states a child resembles it's parent based on the emission from the mother or father.
It then goes on to discuss the law of abrogation, this is what it states regarding the 'christian cry' of how can an all knowing and unchanging God abrogate stuff doesn't it mean He didn't know to begin with and He made mistakes?:
"What these questions don't take into account, is that whilst God is all-knowing, unchanging (e.g., Malachi 3:6, with lots of problems with the concept of Trinity), His audience, humanity, is not [In other words God has to abrogate His laws because His audience can't accept them is this logical from an all kowing and unchanging God who is no respecter of persons?]
It lists so called biblical examples of abrogations:
"And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground anymore for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more everything living, as I have done. [Genesis 8:21]"
"And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. [Exodus 32:14]" What the authors fail to mention is that the repent here in the old testament can mean to be grieved by to be saddened. What the authors also fail to acknowledge is that there is no such law of abrogation in christianity and Judaism, I ask again does it make logical sense for there to be no abrogations in a 3,000+ span (but fulfilled prophecies) and all of a sudden a 22 year span of revelations has numerous abrogations.
Your other site http://www.prophetmuhammed.org/ is an alledged biography of Mohammed, it lists his character, his wives, his battles, his relations and his credentials, his character is flawless, his treatment of his wives are honourable, his battles are justified, his relations are superb, everybody loved Mohammed, the only problem is and which I suggest you do is have a look at the bibliography, not one source of the sunnah is utilised in the compilation of that whole website ( how on earth do we judge a religion other than it's religious scripture?), every single book in that bibliography is from a muslim apologetic written after 1980 aimed at making islam look good to the west, they are not utilising the sunnah where exactly are they referring to build such a picture of Mohammed? how do I know I am not reading a pack of lies? are they reading the same material in the sunnah the ones where Mohammed congratulated people for killing people that ridiculed him, an old woman, little girls, demanding one of his followers gives him a slave girl, coming back to meet the follower in the market the next day and demanding the slave girl and leaving to repeat the demand the next day, punching a teenage girl (Aisha) so hard in the chest it caused her great pain all because she frightened him in the moonlight?
or are they picking and choosing which hadiths they like and which ones they don't want to believe?
Exactly what do you expect me to 'understand' by giving me these websites?. I am by now beginning to suspect that you are unable to defend your beliefs with logic and your quran and sunnah alone. If I wanted a discussion with a website I know where to go.
tell me exactly what am I supposed to think is happening during these revelations?
Take a look at what was revealed. I can't believe you seriously entertain the thought that a malicious being was revealing the Qur'an. This is one of the more unique polemics I've heard.
That is exactly what logic brings me to.
So Joseph Smith was not getting revelations from a malicious being locked up in that cave, did he make it up or did he really hear something from a spirit pretending to be angel Gabriel (familiar?).
Are you aware that spiritists, mediums, clairaudients, clairvoyants, see and hear things other people do not hear or see, do you think what they see and hear is all good and from God, do you not think that these people are confused, they could be hearing something demonic and the demonic being is telling them they are from God even though they do good deeds and their heart is in the right place watch crossing over or any one of those so called intercession with the dead programs, this is what logic leads me to, considering the bible warns us that if anybody comes to preach another gospel "wether it be from an angel" do not accept it, what am I suppose to understand by this? is this not a perfect prophecy about islam?
If you are unable to extract and express the relevant information from your links I see no point in this debate.
I believe humanists in this day and age do not cut off arms and limbs
They also don't believe in God to believe in upholding His laws. If you were commanded by God to do something, a law ordaining a punishment for a crime, would you or would you not obey it? Keep in mind you are sure it is from God.
Suppose I was sure a command from Krishna was from God
or a command from the buddha was from God
or a command from Confuscious was from God
or a command from Joseph Smith was from God
or a command from the Dalai llama was from God (as an example I am well aware he doesn't believe in God)
How do I know a command from all these people or followers from all these people is from God, because they give charity and do good works?
I don't see how something can make chronological sense if it is not in chronological order.
The Qur'an will talk about Jesus (pbuh) then later talk about Lot for example. The stories themselves will be in chronological order, but between themselves they are not.
What in my point don't you understand? instead of A B C D we have C D A B it simply is not chronological sense, sura A indeed may make some logical sense, and so will B C and D on their own but together they make no chronological sense at all.
Suppose I just suddenly decided to post you a myriad of web links and I told you to go 'read', wouldn't you think I was trying to be evasive of your question? this is exactly what you do when I ask you a question.
I spend time to pick links that, if you read them, would have answered every single one of your questions.
Instead, you don't even read them, assume they wouldn't have helped, then wonder why your questions aren't answered.
If you had read the links insteading of doing a search in a search engine and pasting similar links we wouldn't be discussing this point, suppose the authors from a website make a mistake or completely misrepresent something, what will you say then, those are not your views you don't understand what they meant I should take it up with them? exactly how can someone have a discussion with someone who just refers?
Thou shalt not steal was never abrogated in christianity)
It's not stealing when it's the spoils of war against people who are trying to destroy God's religion and God commanded it.
I have seen several hadiths that Mohammed constantly led folks to loot pagan caravans, would you care to cite the hadiths that show he was being persecuted?
If you refer me to a website I shall consider this conversation over after 5 posts of asking for the same request I know when I am talking to a brick wall.
( do you see how convenient Mohammed obtained the spoils of this particular raid he just claimed allah said give it all to me)
And where did the Prophet distribute it? Go read how poorly the Prophet chose to live and read about where these spoils all went. Isn't that basically what you're suggesting, that the Prophet was rich or something?
BukhariV1B7N1331 “The Prophet said, ‘I have been given five things which were not given to any one else before me. 1. Allah made me victorious by awe by His terrorizing my enemies. 2. The earth has been made for me. 3. Booty has been made lawful for me yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me. 4. I have been given the right of intercession. 5. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind.’
Tabari VII:29/Ishaq:289 “The Apostle heard that Abu Sufyan [a Meccan merchant] was coming from Syria with a large Quraysh caravan containing their money and their merchandise. He was accompanied by only thirty men.”
Ishaq:288 “Allah divided the booty stolen from the first caravan after he made spoils permissible. He gave four-fifths to those He had allowed to take it and one-fifth to His Apostle.”
Ishaq:289 “Muhammad summoned the Muslims and said, ‘This is the Quraysh caravan containing their property. Go out and attack it. Perhaps Allah will give it to us as prey.”
“Abu Sufyan and the horsemen of the Quraysh were returning from Syria following the coastal road. When Allah’s Apostle heard about them he called his companions together and told them of the wealth they had with them and the fewness of their numbers. The Muslims set out with no other object than Sufyan and the men with him. They did not think that this raid would be anything other than easy booty.”
I need not quote anymore, this is a man that feels he is entitled to 1/5th of the spoil, even if they involved very pretty jewish and christian married women where exactly is anything I have quoted contradicted in the hadiths and the koran? considering he had an estimated 23 wives and concubines maybe that was where all the money went to, just because Buddha, or Hare krishna's chose to be poor doesn't make their message any more coming from God than Mohammed's.
What you have to ask your self is what is Tahannuth?
It means "ta'abbud" devotional exercises. The devotional exercises of the pagans were called "devotional exercises" as are the "devotional exercises" of any other religion. That's what happens with Arabic words, they carry through with their meanings
What exactly do you mean by a "pagan devotional exercise" devotion to what pagan symol?
I also noticed you chose to ignore several of my questions so here I shall restate just this one and ask for your understanding of what it means:
"Ishaq:327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’” "
Now compare with what the koran says:
Koran 8:67
'It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desires for you the hereafter and Allah is Mighty, Wise. Now enjoy what you have won as lawful and good and keep your duty to Allah. [] Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful.' [/b]
It doesn't take much thought to realise "lo, allah is forgiving and merciful" makes no sense with the preceding utterings in this sura, compare it with what Ishaq says regardless of the immoral message it makes more logical sense, also please comment what you think the ishaq 327 means.
and where is it contradicted in the hadiths or koran?
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Believer
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Peace humble guest,
You're denying what is real again.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html
The pact of Omar was created to slowly destroy religious comminities by putting unreasonable pressure on their religious freedom.
This crap sounds like the kind of laws the NAZIS imposed on the Jews!
We can agree that the Nazis were evil.
Why not Omar and his evil laws?
Now I really want answers to the questions that I asked.
But Muhammed at many times was offensive!
What would you do if you're a Persian or Jew and you see an army of Muslims ready to attack your village, and they invade and destroy your temple and press you to convert to their religion.
Would you convert or fight?
Who is the agressor?
Who is the enemy of God?
The opressed "infidel" whose religion and culture is suppressed?
Or the agressive army seeking to spread their faith with swords and browbeating?
The Hadith was clearly talking about physical fighting.
Islamic states make life a real hell for Christians and Jews.
You are just brainwashed because what you say is NOT IN REALITY.
Many Christians in Iraq have recieved death threats from Shiites saying they must convert to ISalm or be killed and raped.
I pray no more Islamic States will be created because the success of Satan will only increase.
The antichrist is a Jew?
Does that sound somewhat anti-Semetic?
Iran certainly has a really ancient Jewish community, how old do you suppose?
The antichrist IS the big Evil that the End Times lead up to, and after he is destroyed all of evil is also destroyed by Jesus and the Judgement begins.
That makes the mosyt sense too.
Why, what sorts of things could be worse than the antichrist?
This is not true bro, no one was ever forced to convert to Islam. Here I answered this in another thread:
You're denying what is real again.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html
The pact of Omar was created to slowly destroy religious comminities by putting unreasonable pressure on their religious freedom.
This crap sounds like the kind of laws the NAZIS imposed on the Jews!
We can agree that the Nazis were evil.
Why not Omar and his evil laws?
Now I really want answers to the questions that I asked.
But Muhammed at many times was offensive!
What would you do if you're a Persian or Jew and you see an army of Muslims ready to attack your village, and they invade and destroy your temple and press you to convert to their religion.
Would you convert or fight?
Who is the agressor?
Who is the enemy of God?
The opressed "infidel" whose religion and culture is suppressed?
Or the agressive army seeking to spread their faith with swords and browbeating?
I think the reason you're having trouble seeing this is because you're not thinking from the perspective that there is a right and wrong way to worship in the sight of God. Praying to objects and people is wrong, and this was a declaration showing that the news of Islam must be spread to the people of these empires, whether the emperors will permit Muslims to enter or not.
The Hadith was clearly talking about physical fighting.
The options aren't to convert or die, on the contrary, it is to convert or live peaceably under Muslim rules and FREE your Christian and Jewish and even pagan servants from your humanistic rule and allow them religious freedom in the Islamic state.
Islamic states make life a real hell for Christians and Jews.
You are just brainwashed because what you say is NOT IN REALITY.
Many Christians in Iraq have recieved death threats from Shiites saying they must convert to ISalm or be killed and raped.
I pray no more Islamic States will be created because the success of Satan will only increase.
Good question. He's not Persian he's one of the Jews that live in Iran. You do know that Iran has a Jewish community, right?
The antichrist is a Jew?
Does that sound somewhat anti-Semetic?
Iran certainly has a really ancient Jewish community, how old do you suppose?
Jesus (pbuh) rules the earth with justice as had never been seen up to that point in time, for a period of forty years. Then other major signs of the End Times follow. Do you want to know more?
The antichrist IS the big Evil that the End Times lead up to, and after he is destroyed all of evil is also destroyed by Jesus and the Judgement begins.
That makes the mosyt sense too.
Why, what sorts of things could be worse than the antichrist?
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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