Deuteronomy 18:18 ... Who Is The Prophet?

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Deuteronomy 18:18 ... Who Is The Prophet?

Postby Scorpion » Tue Mar 16, 2004 07:34 pm

I want to display some facts here and debunk Islamic claims that Mohammed is the one prophecied in this scripture.

Deuteronomy 18:18 KJV says ...

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him

1. Firstly Jesus himself pointed out HE was the prophet being spoken of in the Old Testament ...

****(Jesus said:) If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote of me. (John 5:46, RSV)****

Read Acts 3:13-23, these also show that Jesus is the Prophet spoken of in the Old Testament.

================ Who Are The Brethren? ================

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren...

So who are the Brethren? Muslims will say its the Ishmaelites and therefore this was a prophecy of mohammed, this is completely false, and i will show you why ...

Now it is true that the Ishmaelites were A brother nation to the Israelites, but so were the Moabites, Ammonites, Emorites and many other nations ... so which one are you going to choose and which one does the Bible say it is? Its not logical to say it's the Ishmaelites because like i pointed out, the Israelites had many brother nations. So its completely false to say it was the Ishmaelites as this could apply to all the other nations ... who knows, the prophecied prophet could have well been buddha, barney or Winnie the pooh for all we know. The Bible clarifies itself, this scripture has to be read in CONTEXT to be understand ...

In the Law of Moses, the word Brethren normally refers to a brother Israelite. Now, when the word brother applies to Israels brother nations, the nation's name is given (See deuteronomony 3:4)

The context of Deuteronomy 18:18 does NOT refer to any of these other nations. Therefore, from the context, the word brethren just has the normal meaning of fellow Israelite. This means the prophet like Moses is to be an Israelite.

Just a few scriptures back in Deuteronomy 17:15 we see the context made crystal clear of the use of the word Brethren ...

Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother

In Israel, the Israelites NEVER chose a king who was not a Brethren, meaning who was NOT a fellow Israelite, the king they chose was always an Israelite. There is no scriptural evidence to support that this was talking about any of Israels brother nations, otherwise the scripture would have mentioned so. Check Deuteronomy 17:15 and read again to see the context. The Arabs are NEVER called Brethren in the Old Testament as far as i know. Now why would God raise up a prophet from Israels enemies such as the Ishmaelites in this case? This doesn't make sense.

Mohammed was NOT an Israelite, he was definately not the one prophecied in this, this debate should end right here, but i will continue further to give people the Benefit of the doubt.

In John 1:45 Phillip proclaimed ...

We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph

Even Phillip knew Jesus was the Prophet spoken of in Deuteronomy, try to rewind time back and imagine what it would have been like. We'll discuss this in more detail later...

The next part of the scripture basically says that God will raise up from the Israelites (a Jew) a prophet like Moses ... So who is a prophet like Moses and what is Gods criteria for the word 'like'?

Muslims will often use everyday examples to compare Mohammed to be like moses such as the following ...

Rejected by his people and then accepted, Became a national leader, Miraculous birth, Encountered enemies in battle, Family - married with children etc.

Now these are NOT in Gods criteria, and they are clearly not Unique, there are very very interesting similarities between Jesus and Moses which i will show you ... and then you decide wether Moses was like Jesus, or wether a non-Jew like Mohammed was. Please read the following similarities each one by one, read them with careful thought, and decide wether the Prophet spoke of is Mohammed or Jesus ...

================== Moses And Jesus ==================

1. Moses offered to take the sins of Israel on himself in Exodus 32:30-32 ... Jesus was sacrificed for the sins of mankind

2. Moses was transfigured on Mt. Sinai (Exodus 34:29) ... Jesus was transfigured in Matthew 17:1-6

3. Moses came out of Egypt at the Exodus, and Jesus went to Egypt as a baby and returned

4. Moses was brought up by his mother as a nurse in Pharaoh's household, and Jesus was brought up by Mary, but Muhammad was an orphan (!!!!!!!). Moses was saved as a baby in the rushes; Jesus was saved when God told Joseph to take him to Egypt

5. Moses was a Miracle worker ... Jesus was a miracle worker

6. Moses was a shephard ... Jesus also said he was "THE Good Shephard"

Now THESE are striking similarities, but oh no .. it doesn't stop here ... for the benefit of the doubt, read on, and be amazed at the similarities between Moses and Jesus ...

7. Lived in Egypt. Jesus lived in Egypt as an infant (Matt. 2:13-21)

8. Had His Face Glow With Light, but it faded away (Exodus 34:29-35 and 2nd Corinthians 3:12-13). The face of Jesus shined like the sun (Matthew 17:1-5) and is still shining like the sun while in heaven (Revelation 1:9-19)

9. Deliverer of His Brethren who would Follow Him Out of Physical Slavery then he gave them the law. Jesus came and gave law and commandments to His followers. Then He delivered them and other followers around the world out of the spiritual slavery of sin and Satan

10. Grew up in a Country where the King, Pharaoh, was Afraid that the Slaves would Revolt. Jesus grew up where King Herod, "the Great," was afraid the descendants of those very same slaves would revolt

11. Father was a Mystery to the General Public. The Father of Jesus and the facts of His virgin birth were a mystery to the general public (Luke 1)

12. Was Adopted into the Royal Family of Pharaoh. Jesus was adopted by His step-father, Joseph, into the royal family line of King David and Solomon (Matt. 1)

13. 40 Years was Tested in Wilderness. Jesus was tested 40 days in the wilderness and had approximately 40 months of public teaching and miracle working

14. 40 Days Fasting (Exodus 34:28). Jesus fasted 40 days (Matt. 4)

15. The White Hand of Leprosy (Exodus 4:6-7). Jesus healed many different people of leprosy (Luke 17:11-19) (unlike Jesus, Mohammed never healed anybody did he?)

16. Moses Asked that the great Sin of His People be Forgiven (Exodus 32:31-32). Jesus asked that the great sin of His people be forgiven (Luke 23:34)

17. Moses split the waters at the crossing at the Red Sea ... Jesus also showed Control of the weather and calmed the storm on the Sea of Galilee, Did mohammed ever control weather? Im he didn't.

18. Fire was important. At Mt. Horeb/Mt. Sinai there was fire (Ex. 3:1-6; 19:18 and 24:12-18) and there was the pillar of fire (Ex. 13:21-22). Jesus baptized the people with the Holy Spirit and with fire (Matt. 3:11-17 and Acts 2:1-4)

19. Moses Was faithful as a Servant in all his house (Hebrews 3:5). Jesus was faithful as a Son over His house (Hebrews 3:6). Thats interesting, These scriptures mention Jesus after talking about Moses in the previous scripture.

20. Brought water from a rock by a miracle (Exodus 17). Jesus Himself was the Living Water which was brought out of the tomb-rock which could not hold Him (John 7:37-38).

Had enough yet? No? Well keep reading, because there are more striking and amazing UNIQUE similarites between Moses and Jesus ...

21. A mountain was prominent in his work where the law was given for a nation. A mountain was prominent in the work of Jesus. He gave the famous Sermon on the Mountain with the law for people of all nations (Matthew 5, 6, & 7).

22. An angel watched over his body (Jude 1:9). Jesus had at least two angels watching over His body (John 20)

23. Was mighty in words and deeds (Acts 7:22). Jesus was more powerful in words and deeds (Matt. 7:28-29; and 8:3-13)

24. Sent 12 men to look over the land secretly (Numbers 12). Jesus sent out his 12 disciples to look over the same land and to publicly preach repentance and to cast out unclean spirits (Mark 6:6-13).

The Similarities are getting more and more unique aren't they? Can somebody match an equal number of such UNIQUE similarities between Moses and Mohammed? I doubt you can. And im going to make sure you cant, please read as im not Finished, and neither is the Word of God...

25. Did not have special clothing symbolic of his rank. Jesus also did not have special clothing showing His rank

26. Did not have biological sons to carry on his spiritual functions. Neither did Jesus

27. Was very gracious to foreign women at wells and gave them water (Exodus 2:15-17). Jesus was gracious to the Samaritian woman at Jacob's well and gave her the Water of Life (John 4) Lets see what Mohammed did to Aisha shall we?

Mohammed himself deliberately struck ‘Aisha "on the chest which caused me pain". (Sahih Muslim 2:2127)

Some more for your reading pleasure?

28. True identity was not known at first to the women at the well (Exodus 2). The true identity of Jesus was not known at first to the woman at the well (John 4) - Wow ... now thats unique

29. Was involved in the activities of the holy Tabernacle on earth (Exodus 25-40). Jesus is involved in the perfect Tabernacle in Heaven (Hebrews 8)

30. Moses Was humble. Jesus was gentle and humble (Matt. 11:28-30)

31. Moses was learned of all the Wisdom of Egypt, and Jesus was also a wise and well educated person ... Mohammed according to muslims, was illiterate (lol)

32. Moses' Opponent, Pharaoh, had his heart hardened (Ex. 7:3). Jesus' opponents had their hearts hardened because He healed on the Sabbath (Luke 6:7-11)

33. Spoke to the 70 elders of Israel (Ex. 24:1 and Numbers 11). Jesus spoke to the 70 elders (called the Sanhedrin) (Luke 22:70-71) - Wow ... again ... a very unique similarity wouldn't you agree guys?

34. Had sacrifices for the Covenant sealed with blood (Ex. 24:1-8). Jesus also sealed His new Covenant with blood (Hebrews 9:18-28).

35. Provided ransom by pouring out blood as a sacrifice (Ex. 12). Jesus similarly ( Matt. 20:28 & Hebrews 9:11-15)

36. Moses Does not have a known tomb where the body is located (Deut. 34). Jesus' tomb is empty because after death, he was raised up alive and ascended into Heaven (Mark 16:19 and Luke 24:50-53).

37. Finished the work which God commanded him (Ex. 40:33). Jesus completed His work (John 17:4 and & 19:30).

38. Established a memorial custom (Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover) based on common food elements (Ex. 12). Jesus established the memorial of Himself by a custom utilizing two common food elements of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover (Luke 22:19-20).

40. Fed multitudes of people by miracles (Ex. 16). Jesus fed multitudes (Matt. 14 and 15) - Did mohammed ever feed a MULTITUDE by a miracle? I dont think so he did.

41. Left a high position in the most powerful nation on earth to suffer for his people (Exodus 2-12 and Hebrews 11:23-27). Jesus left the highest position in Heaven to suffer for His people and to make ransom available to all people (Philippians 2:5-8).

42. Was raised by the daughter of the king (Ex. 2). Jesus' mother was a daughter of the House of King David by his son, Nathan (Luke 3)

43. Had a peculiar bed as an infant (Ex. 2:3). Jesus also had a peculiar bed (Luke 2:7) - If you remember from the Bible, Moses was went down a river in a casket/basket or whatever you would like to call it, and Jesus was also born in a manger ... Mohammed was born normally, he did NOT have a peculiar bed, well .. not that i know of anyway :)

44. Closed the way to the Ark of the Covenant (Testimony) with a thick curtain (Ex. 26:33). Jesus, at His death, had the thick curtain in the temple torn open from top to bottom, opening the way (Matt 27 and Mark 15)

"And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." (Deut. 18:21-22)

Mohammed NEVER spoke in the name of YHWH ... NEVER, he spoke under the Authority of a "new" pagan god and made a "new" religion. This prophet was said to give a sign or prophecy about the future in order to validate his Prophethood, and Jesus did this ... He performed miracles, AND he prophecied ... Mohammed never performed a miracle, see the following sources ...

"They say: Why not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" (Q 10:20; see also Q 6:109; Q 13:7; Q 17:59; Q 21:5,6).

Lets see more similarities to shut people up who claim this prophecy is about Mohammed...

46. Both forsook riches to identify with their people. (Heb.11:26, 2 Cor.8:9) ... (Instead Mohammed took riches in his conquering the people)

47. Both Moses and Jesus were born when Israel was under bondage (Moses in Egypt Ex.1:8,10, and Jesus during Israel's Roman bondage. Mt.2:1,Lk.2:1-2)

48. Both were miraculously delivered from death during their infancy from their enemies of Israel (Ex.2:3, Lk.2:7;Mt 2:14,15) and were preserved in childhood

49. Moses was hidden by faith (Ex.2:2-3 and Heb.11:23) Jesus’ life was preserved by his parents obeying the message in a dream. (Mt.2:13-14)

50. Both predicted Israel's history (Deut.28:15-28; Mt.23:34,24:1,2,8,34)

51. Both were considered a snare to Israel (Ex10:7; 1Pt.2:8=Isa.8:14)

52. Both had a face to face relationship with God unlike any other person. Moses (Ex.33:9-11, Deut.34:10; Numb.12:7-8) Jesus was with God=face to face from eternity (Jn.1:1,18) - Mohammed got his revelations from a so called angel, did he even test the spirit like the Bible commands us to? No! I feel deeply sorry for Mohammed and Joseph Smtih.

53. God spoke audibly and directly from heaven to both Moses and Jesus. Moses (Ex.20:22, 24:12-16) Jesus (Mt.3:17; Jn.12:28)

54. Both were sent by God to reveal His name, person and law to the people. To Moses God said to tell them I Am sent you. (Ex.3:13-14) Jesus said God sent him as his exact representative revealing his name (I Am) and nature to the people. (Jn.8:42; 17:6,11-12; Col.2:9; Heb.1:3) - Jesus made 7 'I am' statements as far as i know, the number 7 is a special number in the Bible also which represents Perfection.

55. Both re-appeared after they died, Moses ( Mt 17:3 with Jesus before his death) Jesus (Acts 1:3) - Mohammed died in 632 A.D ... and is dead ever since, and always will be.


===============================================

I hope thats enough to debunk this lubacris claim. Moses was clearly the prophet like Jesus, in LOTS of very UNIQUE ways. I have given 55 very unique similarities between Moses and Jesus, moses in a way was a shadow of Jesus, its just too incredible. What a mighty God we serve.

Anybody who replies to the topic without reading ALL 55 points i have made, will be ignored. Please do not make vain/rubbish replies, please read all the 55 similarities and re-read too if you like, its incredible, Moses was most definately like Jesus, in VERY unique ways.

No vain replies please, if anyway replies without reading these 55 points, they will be ignored.

God bless,
Scorpion
If Jerusalem Belongs To Muslims ... Mecca Belongs To The Jews

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Postby Mujahideen » Sun Apr 25, 2004 02:58 am

will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him


1. Firstly Jesus himself pointed out HE was the prophet being spoken of in the Old Testament


1.So God(jesus) was putting words into His Own Mouth?

2.The verse says a Prophet will come, not a God.
Allah is the One.

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Postby Mujahideen » Sun Apr 25, 2004 03:04 am

THE QURAAN FORETOLD IN THE BIBLE?
For twenty-three years, God's words (the Quraan) were truly put into Muhammad’s mouth. He was not the “author” of the Quraan. The Quraan was dictated to him by Angel Gabriel who asked Muhammad to simply repeat the words of the Quraan as he heard them. These words were then committed to memory and to writing by those who heard them during Muhammad's lifetime and under his supervision.

Was it a coincidence that the prophet “like unto Moses” from the “brethren” of the Israelites (i.e. from the Ishmaelites) was also described as one in whose mouth God will put His words and that he will speak in the name of God? (Deuteronomy 18:18-20). Was it also a coincidence the “Paraclete” that Jesus foretold to come after Him was described as one who “shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak …”? (John 16:13)

Was it another coincidence that Isaiah ties between the messenger connected with Ke'dar and a new song (a scripture in a new language) to be sang unto the Lord (Isaiah 42:10-11)? More explicitly, prophesies Isaiah “For with stammering lips, and another tongue, will he speak to this people” (Isaiah 28:11). This latter verse correctly describes the “stammering lips” of Prophet Muhammad reflecting the state of tension and concentration he went through at the time of revelation. Another related point is that the Quraan was revealed in piece-meals over a span of twenty-three years. It is interesting to compare this with Isaiah 28:10 which speaks of the same thing;

THAT PROPHET -PARACLETE- MUHAMMAD
Up to the time of Jesus, the Israelites were still awaiting for that prophet like unto Moses prophesied in Deuteronomy 18:18. When John the Baptist came, they asked him if he was Christ and he said “no”. They asked him if he was Elias and he said “no”. Then, in apparent reference to Deuteronomy 18:18, they asked him “Art thou that Prophet” and he answered, “no”. (John 1:19-21). In the Gospel according to John (Chapters 14, 15, 16) Jesus spoke of the “Paraclete” or comforter who will come after him, who will be sent by the Father as another Paraclete, who will teach new things which the contemporaries of Jesus could not bear. While the Paraclete is described as the spirit of truth, (whose meaning resemble Muhammad's famous title Al-Amin, the trustworthy), he is identified in one verse as the Holy Ghost (John 14:26). Such a designation is however inconsistent with the profile of that Paraclete. In the words of the Dictionary of the Bible, (Ed: J. Mackenzie) “These items, it must be admitted do not give an entirely coherent picture.”

Indeed history tells us that many early Christians understood the Paraclete to be a man and not a spirit. This might explain the many people in history who followed false pretenders who claimed to be the awaited “Paraclete”, without meeting the criteria stipulated by Jesus.

It was Prophet Muhammad who was the Paraclete, comforter, helper, admonisher sent by God after Jesus. He testified of Jesus, taught new things which could not be borne at Jesus' time, he spoke what he heard (revelation), he dwells with the believers (through his well-preserved teachings). Such teachings will remain forever because he was the last messenger of God, the only Universal Messenger to unite the whole of humanity under God and on the path of PRESERVED truth. He told of many things to come which “came to pass” in the minutest detail meeting, the criterion given by Moses to distinguish between the true prophet and the false prophets (Deuteronomy 18:22).
Allah is the One.

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Postby ILJ/Y » Sun Apr 25, 2004 03:51 am

Peace all and God bless,

Good job brother Scorpian :D

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YbiC
ILJ/Y
John 8:31 & 32
(31)IF YE CONTINUE IN MY WORD, THEN ARE YE MY DISCIPLES INDEED; (32)and YE SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH, AND THE TRUTH SHALL MAKE YOU FREE. :)

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Postby ILJ/Y » Sun Apr 25, 2004 04:00 am

Peace to you all,

Mujahideen,

In response to your claims,
You didn't answer Scorpians posts, particularly about the difference in Muhammad not being an Israelite?!

Here's some points about Comforter (Paracletos) not "Pariclytos"

The Muslims claim that the Bible has been corrupted, and it cannot be trusted. One of the chief verses they point out is the Greek rendering for Comforter (Paracletos) which means “advocate” or “helper.” Their scholars translate this to be “Pariclytos” and use this to point to Mohammed (related to ahmad praised one). The Muslims see Jesus' reference to the coming of the Comforter helper ( Paraclete) as fulfilled by Mohammed They base this on Quaran 61:6 Mohammed as ahmad (Periclytos) “Jesus, the son of Mary, said “0 children of Israel! I am the apostle of God ... giving glad tidings of an apostle to come after me whose name shall be ahmad.”

In all the 5,366 manuscripts of the New Testament there is no pariclytos (praised one,) so there is no textual evidence for this, but this doesn't stop them from holding to this view.

Sura 16:102 and Sura 26:192-194 says Mohammed’s call was issued by the Holy Spirit who appeared to Mohammed. According to their teaching he is the angel Gabriel who also appeared to him in Sura 2:97 (also called the angel in 19:17). In other places in the Koran he is God's own breath, Surat al-Hyjr 15:29, and the divine inspiration The Bee 16:2. According the Bible the Comforter is the Holy Spirit who is God. This conflict certainly shows the biblical illiteracy of the Koran's author who took biblical terminology to mean something completely different.

In the early 200’s in Persia Mani synthesized Persian, Christian, and Buddhist ideas. This became one of the major religions in the world of its time (a new age movement predecessor much like the Bahai's) Trained in a Gnostic community he went to India where he found his first religious followers. His first revelation was at 12 years old and he claimed he was called to his apostleship at age 24. He taught Zoroaster who was sent to Persia, Buddha to India and Jesus to the west. He claimed to be the last and greatest prophet, the Paraclete sent by the Father of light. Another Persian prophet after Mohammed, Baha’u’lla, claimed in 1840’s to be the comforter that we have been waiting for. Everyone wants to be the Holy Spirit. Allah is not the Holy Spirit. Islam's Holy Spirit is not the same as the Bibles . The Holy Spirit in the Koran is the angel Gabriel, the comforter is not the same as the Holy Spirit.

Islam takes Mk.1:7 and explains that Jesus prophesied of Mohammed as “there comes One after me who is mightier than I.” These words are by John the baptizer not Jesus. This points to Jesus as he was identified by John and began to preach the gospel afterwards. John even identifies him as this when he cried out in John 1:15 “This is he of whom I said “He who comes after me is preferred before me”

The Bible- Jesus said in John 14:26 “ But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”

Notice the comforter is the Holy Spirit, what's more is the very purpose of this helper is to bear witness to the truth who is Jesus. John 14:17 “ Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”

This helper Jesus and the Father would send would be in Christians and abide with them forever. What is Mohammed doing living in Christians even today after being dead 16 centuries ? how would they know him if he was not yet born?
John 20:22 “ And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.” Remember Jesus said in Jn.14: 26 “ But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit,

John 16:13-14 “However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. “He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.”
Jesus tells us that the Spirit will not speak on His own authority (v. 14) but will say What Jesus says . His purpose, He will glorify Jesus. Verse 16 says that He will take what is Jesus' and declare it unto you.

The purpose of the helper, the comforter from the Bible was to conform someone to the image of Christ as he lives in the believer. Not to gather armies or take over what is perceived as paganism and idolatry by force.

In Sura 33:40 Mohammed says of himself that he is the apostle of God, the seal of the prophets. This means that he supersedes Jesus and Jesus is an inferior prophet. He also is speaking on his own authority which is something that Jesus said his helper will not do. (Jesus also said that John the Baptist is the greatest prophet ever among men.).

One of the arguments for Mohammed being the helper is that Jesus would send another of the same kind (like Himself). Since Muslims look upon Jesus as only a man, a prophet, this can only mean that He is sending another man. They neglect Jesus' deity and the fact that He pre-existed as God in the substance of spirit and that this was His eternal nature. He took upon Himself a human nature as an addition but He always existed as God. The Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is also God and that when Jesus said that He would send another like Himself it was to be of the same kind (eternal), in like nature. The Spirit would be with us forever which is something only God can do. So according to the Bible's definition the Holy Spirit is the same one as the comforter. How do we know this? Acts.1:4-5 tells us it is the Holy Spirit, as well as John 16 which Jesus called the Spirit of truth. Also in John 14 which in vs.16 he calls him the comforter, and in vs.17 he is called the Spirit of truth, speaking of the same one. So it is clear he is a Spirit the Holy one, which is God .

The timing of when the helper would be sent certainly contradicts the Koran. Jesus said that it “would not be many days from now” in Acts 1:4-5.
This meant at the close of the 40 days that he appeared after the resurrection. And in v.8 “But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” The purpose is to bear testimony of Jesus. We know that this was fulfilled at the Day of Pentecost 50 days after His crucifixion, after he resurrected according to the eyewitnesses. Mohammed did not come until 600 years later so this would mean that the disciples did not have the Comforter (paraclete), nor do we today, since Mohammed is no longer here.

Another Biblical event that makes this even more illogical is that the paraclete, who is the Holy Spirit, was brooding over the waters in Gen. 1 and taking part in creation. It is obvious that this cannot be Mohammed. The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is none other than God himself. The Bible teaches He is omnipresent as well as all powerful. It was by the Holy Spirit that generated the egg in Mary to conceive the body for the Son of God. This certainly is not Mohammed doing this. Also, the Comforter would be in us. Christians will all have in them the same Holy Spirit. How could this be Mohammed? He was a flesh and blood person who no longer is alive. How could he inhabit Christians, of all people, who do not believe in His teachings? the fact is that the comforter is only given to those who believe the gospel, that Jesus died for their sins and rose again. This is what would make them a Christian, by having the Holy Spirit for only Those who believe receive the comforter.

All one has to do is read the book of Acts to see who the Holy Spirit (paracletos) is and how He works. He convicts men of their sin and is the power behind miracles from God. The word paracletos also has another meaning, advocate, which the Koran only attributes to God.

Despite all this evidence, they insist that the paraclete would be a person of flesh and blood and not a Spirit who is God Himself. Even if we concede at this point for the sake of continuing our dialogue, the question we need to ask a Muslim is, is Jesus a prophet? They would of course respond that Mohammed said he was. Can a prophet lie? They would answer in the negative. Then if Jesus is a true prophet then whatever he said should be heeded. Jesus claimed to be the only way to God. If Jesus is right then Mohammed is wrong. If Jesus is wrong, Mohammed is still wrong, because he (Mohammed), said, he is right. So if Jesus is a true prophet he said heaven and earth would pass away before the word would. Then the word is not corrupted but preserved, because Jesus was a true prophet.

How can our Muslim friends deny the facts?

Hope that is helpful to any seeking truth.

In HIM
ILJ/Y
John 8:31 & 32

(31)IF YE CONTINUE IN MY WORD, THEN ARE YE MY DISCIPLES INDEED; (32)and YE SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH, AND THE TRUTH SHALL MAKE YOU FREE. :)

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Postby Believer » Sun Apr 25, 2004 04:06 am

Peace Mujihadeen,

THAT PROPHET -PARACLETE- MUHAMMAD


Muhammed is NOT the Holy Spirit that Jesus spoke about.
That is VERY IMPOSSIBLE.

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=3810

In fact, if you believe that Muhammed is the Spirit of the LORD, well you show extreme ignorance.
You are ignorant of the Truth obviously.


Indeed history tells us that many early Christians understood the Paraclete to be a man and not a spirit. This might explain the many people in history who followed false pretenders who claimed to be the awaited “Paraclete”, without meeting the criteria stipulated by Jesus.


That is extremely wrong, read my link.
The Spirit is one th world has niot seen.
Well, the world has seen Muhammed!


saiah 42:10-11 says NOTHING about holy scriptures in a new language.
Isaiah 28:11 is about false prophets that cannot understand the holy Word of God. ISaiah talks about this man y times, how the people will not be able to understand. True, the people did not understand Jesus Christ, so they killed Him.

That covers that, now keep to the subject about the similarities like Moses. Any more extraneous things will be deleted. Start a new topic.


Was it a coincidence that the prophet “like unto Moses” from the “brethren” of the Israelites (i.e. from the Ishmaelites) was also described as one in whose mouth God will put His words and that he will speak in the name of God?


Actually "brothers" means the Jewish people of the future,i.e, in Jesus's time.
Jesus was a brotehr of Moses and his Israelites.
Jesus and Moses are brothers, both Jews!!!
Muhammed is a COUSIN!
Besides, Israel's brother nation is Edom.

This wonderful thread by Scorpion is absoolute proof that Jesus Christ is the Prophet like Moses. That is the established fact unless you can pull up more amazing similarities with Muhammed, but that I do not see.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2

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Postby Mujahideen » Sun Apr 25, 2004 08:27 pm

Do you know why your scholars dont come out in the open and try to refute the claims? Because they are very knowledgable of the bible and quran, and they know exactly where they'll end up if they do try to refute. Yet their hearts are sealed.

Islam is the only religion that poses a challenge right out in the open.

Bring a chapter LIKE in the Quran (in arabic, of course).
Prove a SINGLE verse wrong, just ONE! All that is sufficient.

The challenge is open to anyone...pass anyone and I will become a christian.

Complete anyone(not both, just one) of those challenges.

Our scholars(comparative religion) come right out in the open for Quran and Bible debates. After what Dr. Zakir Naik did to Dr. William Campbell (check on www.aswatalislam.net (videolectures, drzakirnaik, quran and bible in teh light of science)), it seems as if the christian scholars have been cowering. They only preach against islam in their churches, but not in the open, because they're afraid.
Allah is the One.

Omega

Postby Omega » Sun Apr 25, 2004 08:39 pm

Hello my friend!

I find it odd how when Christians point out scriptural error within the Quran, there are many different responses which is most likely irrefutable, due to the fact that muslims are not willing to be corrected.And as we Christians rightly divide the word of truth you are not willing to accept it and yet refuse correction in doctrinal error within the Quran.

Debates such as these are frivolous and a waste of time seeing that it will lead nowhere but is nothing more than a hinderance to spread the truth of salvation to those who truly seek and desire after it.

And i can assure as God is my witness, there is no fear within me, nothing in this world can take that away from me.

It is written: 1 John 4:18 - There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Now you might want to ask yourself this question,"How often do you fear?"
Answer this in all honesty, if not then you are only fooling yourself.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39


God Bless!

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Postby Believer » Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:32 am

Mujihadeen, stop trying to evade the subject of this thread.
If you cannot show how Muhammed is closer to Moses than Jesus, then this thread is too much for you.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;

in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

-Hebrews 1:1-2

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Postby Mujahideen » Mon Apr 26, 2004 08:21 pm

Hah, my friend Omega, take on any of our comparative religion scholars. Start with Gary Miller. If you are so confident in the information you bring forth to the muslims of jesus-christ-forums.com then take it to the level of the scholars. why you wont do that? its because our scholars have tons of more knowledge than us about both scriptures.

Good luck to you.
Allah is the One.

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Postby ILJ/Y » Tue Apr 27, 2004 02:29 am

Peace all,

You made all these claims, we gave answers, now you say, take it to the level of scholars?So you hang on every word of these "scholars?" That's ridiculous, because many scolars, also say God doesn't exist! Do you believe them?No scholar can completley prove nor completley disprove these issues.Frankly there is alot of scholarly material laid out here.I have heard and seen many scholars, "come out", and very well refute Islam.Seeing how Islam is the most recent of the religions, and there was too much material way way ahead of it's inception, i.e., ancient texts from the Torah etc...and the New Testament, that largely pre-date Islam, the 1st. 2 surely didn't borrow any material from the latter.

Stick to the topics please :wink:

Peace all
ILJ/Y
John 8:31 & 32

(31)IF YE CONTINUE IN MY WORD, THEN ARE YE MY DISCIPLES INDEED; (32)and YE SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH, AND THE TRUTH SHALL MAKE YOU FREE. :)

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Postby newseed » Tue Apr 27, 2004 03:36 am

Peace Mujahideen

Believer said:

Mujihadeen, stop trying to evade the subject of this thread. If you cannot show how Muhammed is closer to Moses than Jesus, then this thread is too much for you.


Personally, I wish you would explain how Muhammad is closer to Moses as you have yet to give such list as Scorpion has given you.

If you can't, just say so. At least you will have our respect for being honest. 8)

Thanks.
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John 14:7-9 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. From now on, you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you such a long time, and do you not know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. How do you say, 'Show us the Father?'

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Postby KniteOfIslam » Wed May 12, 2004 03:52 pm

First I have to say that that is not the way we compare a prophet to another
As we have to give ONLY Personality similarities here between Moses and Jesus
And Despite that most of these are not personality similarities but for the sake of the argument I'll answer it:

I'll write down the point and start the answer with *
When u see * this where I start to comment the point


1. Moses offered to take the sins of Israel on himself in Exodus 32:30-32 ... Jesus was sacrificed for the sins of mankind
* (What??..Moses Offered and Jesus Actually Sacrificed..?..)

5. Moses was a Miracle worker ... Jesus was a miracle worker
* So was Mohammad a miracle worker

6. Moses was a shephard ... Jesus also said he was "THE Good Shephard"
* (Jesus was not actually a shephard)..
But Mohammad actually worked as a shephard..this is more to Mohammad favour Than to Jesus
Mohammad is more like Moses, Jesus is more unlike Moses

8. Had His Face Glow With Light, but it faded away (Exodus 34:29-35 and 2nd Corinthians 3:12-13). The face of Jesus shined like the sun (Matthew 17:1-5) and is still shining like the sun while in heaven (Revelation 1:9-19) ..
* So was Mohammad's face radiating with light

9. Deliverer of His Brethren who would Follow Him Out of Physical Slavery then he gave them the law. Jesus came and gave law and commandments to His followers. Then He delivered them and other followers around the world out of the spiritual slavery of sin and Satan
* (Jesus gave commandments AND THEN delivered them out of SPIRITUAL slavery)
But Mohammad delivered many of his followers from physical slavery (ex. The Ethiopian Bilal and many many others) then gave them the laws
Also Mohammad is more like Moses, Jesus is more unlike Moses

10. Grew up in a Country where the King, Pharaoh, was Afraid that the Slaves would Revolt. Jesus grew up where King Herod, "the Great," was afraid the descendants of those very same slaves would revolt
* Also Mohammad grew up in a community where the leaders were afraid of slave revoltion

12. Was Adopted into the Royal Family of Pharaoh. Jesus was adopted by His step-father, Joseph, into the royal family line of King David and Solomon (Matt. 1)
* And Mohammad Was Adopted By His Uncle "Abu Taleb"

13. 40 Years was Tested in Wilderness. Jesus was tested 40 days in the wilderness and had approximately 40 months of public teaching and miracle working
* Another claimed numbers miracle... 40 Years=40 Days...And Moses was tested 40 years in wilderness????????????

15. The White Hand of Leprosy (Exodus 4:6-7). Jesus healed many different people of leprosy (Luke 17:11-19) (unlike Jesus, Mohammed never healed anybody did he?)
* what??..is Moses white hand IS "healing"????..or r u trying to tell us that Jesus would have healed Moses hand if they were living in the same time

16. Moses Asked that the great Sin of His People be Forgiven (Exodus 32:31-32). Jesus asked that the great sin of His people be forgiven (Luke 23:34)
* And Mohammad asked that the great sin of His people to be forgiven ("Sahih Al-Bukhari" Page 3797)

17. Moses split the waters at the crossing at the Red Sea ... Jesus also showed Control of the weather and calmed the storm on the Sea of Galilee, Did mohammed ever control weather? Im he didn't.
* did Moses control Weather?..is splitting water is weather control?.. Actually I find Beleiver's oint more accurate (Moses Controlled water by splitting, Jesus Controlled water by walking on it)
* But then we say that Mohammad also actually did it..(evolved water by his hands "by allah's permission")
("Sahih Al-Bukhari" one of the most rightious books in Islam - Vol 5, Book 59. Military Expeditions Led By The Prophet (pbuh) (Al-Maghaazi). Hadith 473. )

19. Moses Was faithful as a Servant in all his house (Hebrews 3:5). Jesus was faithful as a Son over His house (Hebrews 3:6). Thats interesting, These scriptures mention Jesus after talking about Moses in the previous scripture.
* SERVANT and SON..what??..is it FAITHFUL..Mohammad nickname was the FAITHFUL even before he recieved Allah's revalation
* And maybe Jesus is MENTIONED after Moses to show the difference between them..Who Knows?!!

20. Brought water from a rock by a miracle (Exodus 17 ). Jesus Himself was the Living Water which was brought out of the tomb-rock which could not hold Him (John 7:37-3 ).
* "He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water" (John 7:38 ), is that what u mean?..the river here is flowing out of the belly of the one "beleiveth on" Jesus, not Jesus himself..and it's figurative speech..
* And another physical vs spiritual (figurative speaching) similarity..
* Anyway Mohammad PHYSICALLY made water flow from between his fingers like a spring too (ref.: read Point 17 above)

Had enough yet? No? Well keep reading, because there are more striking and amazing UNIQUE similarites between Moses and Jesus ...

21. A mountain was prominent in his work where the law was given for a nation. A mountain was prominent in the work of Jesus. He gave the famous Sermon on the Mountain with the law for people of all nations (Matthew 5, 6, & 7 ).
* A mountain was prominent in his work where he always was worshipping his God in a cave called Hera' in a mountain near Mecca where he first met the archangel and received the first of the revelation

22. An angel watched over his body (Jude 1:9 ). Jesus had at least two angels watching over His body (John 20)
*So did Mohammad ("Sahih Muslim" - 2797)

23. Was mighty in words and deeds (Acts 7:22 ). Jesus was more powerful in words and deeds (Matt. 7:28 -29; and 8 :3-13 )
* So was Mohammad very powerful in words and deeds

The Similarities are getting more and more unique aren't they? Can somebody match an equal number of such UNIQUE similarities between Moses and Mohammed? I doubt you can. And im going to make sure you cant, please read as im not Finished, and neither is the Word of God...

25. Did not have special clothing symbolic of his rank. Jesus also did not have special clothing showing His rank
* So Mohammad had not special clothing symbolic of his rank

26. Did not have biological sons to carry on his spiritual functions. Neither did Jesus
* Neither did Mohammad

Some more for your reading pleasure?

29. Was involved in the activities of the holy Tabernacle on earth (Exodus 25-40 ). Jesus is involved in the perfect Tabernacle in Heaven (Hebrews
* And Mohammad was involved in the activities of the House Of Allah In Medina (on earth too ).."Messenger's Mosque"

30. Moses Was humble. Jesus was gentle and humble (Matt. 11:28-30 )
* And so was Mohammad Very humble, he was famous of playing with little children and anyone could take his hand and walk with him wherever he wants

32. Moses' Opponent, Pharaoh, had his heart hardened (Ex. 7:3 ). Jesus' opponents had their hearts hardened because He healed on the Sabbath (Luke 6:7-11 )
* Mecca's Leaders had their hearts hardened also..

35. Provided ransom by pouring out blood as a sacrifice (Ex. 12 ). Jesus similarly ( Matt. 20 :28 & Hebrews 9 :11-15 )
* So did Mohammad both in "Hajj" (Pilgrimage) and in "Eid Al-Adha" (Al-Adha Feast) poured blood as a sacrifice

36. Moses Does not have a known tomb where the body is located (Deut. 34 ). Jesus' tomb is empty because after death, he was raised up alive and ascended into Heaven (Mark 16 :19 and Luke 24 :50-53 ).
* Sorry r u suggesting that A TOMB like NO TOMB..THE DEAD IS LIKE THE LIVING, BOTH MUST HAVE TOMB SO WE HAVE TO LOOK FOR IT??..TYPICAL HOLY BOOK CHRISTIAN THINKING

37. Finished the work which God commanded him (Ex. 40 :33 ). Jesus completed His work (John 17:4 and & 19:30 ).
* And Mohammad well completed his work too

40. Fed multitudes of people by miracles (Ex. 16 ). Jesus fed multitudes (Matt. 14 and 15 ) - Did mohammed ever feed a MULTITUDE by a miracle? I dont think so he did.
* So did Mohammad, he fed multitudes of people with few loafs of bread and some butter
("Sahih Al-Bukhari" - Vol 8, Book 78. Oaths And Vows. Hadith 679.)

41. Left a high position in the most powerful nation on earth to suffer for his people (Exodus 2-12 and Hebrews 11:23-27). Jesus left the highest position in Heaven to suffer for His people and to make ransom available to all people (Philippians 2:5).
* Thought Jesus was just sent in a mission not giving up his position in heaven.. But Moses actually gave up his position completely.. THIS IS A DIFFERENCE not a similarity my friend

42. Was raised by the daughter of the king (Ex. 2). Jesus' mother was a daughter of the House of King David by his son, Nathan (Luke 3)
* we can hardly call any of Jesus family a king at the time jesus was born
* But for the sake of the argument : Mohammad was also raised in the house of one of Mecca's Leaders (His Uncle) and son of the king of his tribe "Abdel Mottaleb" (Mohamad's grandfather)

Lets see more similarities to shut people up who claim this prophecy is about Mohammed...

47. Both Moses and Jesus were born when Israel was under bondage (Moses in Egypt Ex.1:8,10, and Jesus during Israel's Roman bondage. Mt.2:1,Lk.2:1-2)
* Mohammad was born while many people were under bondage..

50. Both predicted Israel's history (Deut.28:15-28; Mt.23:34,24:1,2,8,34)
* So did Mohammad predicted his people's history.. ("Sahih El-Boukhari Vol 9, Book 85. Saying Something Under Compulsion (Ikraah). Hadith 076.)

51. Both were considered a snare to Israel (Ex10:7; 1Pt.2:8=Isa.8:14)
* So was Mohammad not to beleivers only but also to all people of Mecca even before he received revelation

52. Both had a face to face relationship with God unlike any other person. Moses (Ex.33:9-11, Deut.34:10; Numb.12:7- Jesus was with God=face to face from eternity (Jn.1:1,1 - Mohammed got his revelations from a so called angel, did he even test the spirit like the Bible commands us to? No! I feel deeply sorry for Mohammed and Joseph Smtih.
* So did Mohammad had direct face to face with Allah in Heaven durin "A- Me'raj" (The Ascending)

53. God spoke audibly and directly from heaven to both Moses and Jesus. Moses (Ex.20:22, 24:12-16) Jesus (Mt.3:17; Jn.12:2
* So did Allah spoke to Mohammad audibly and directly in Heaven durin "Al- Me'raj" (The Ascending)

54. Both were sent by God to reveal His name, person and law to the people. To Moses God said to tell them I Am sent you. (Ex.3:13-14) Jesus said God sent him as his exact representative revealing his name (I Am) and nature to the people. (Jn.8:42; 17:6,11-12; Col.2:9; Heb.1:3) - Jesus made 7 'I am' statements as far as i know, the number 7 is a special number in the Bible also which represents Perfection.
* So Mohammad was sent by Allah to people to deliver the revelation to tell them I am sent to you


(Guess ur list has been cut down 2 almost 20 points...Now I'll give u about twice as many)


Now Mohammad and Moses


01) Both have been raised in other house than their parents'
02) both were super strong..(look next point)
03) both used their personal strength against unbeleivers..moses killed a man violently in defense of a man of his own people..mohammad wrestled the strongest man in the area and knocked him off three times
04) both actually worked as a shephard (Not Spiritual Shephard)
05) both married
06) both had children
07) both was orderd to start working to end the slavery of human to another human (physical slavery not spiritual)
08 ) both recieved the revalation on a mountain (Moses in Saini, Mohammad in Hera' cave on the mountain)
09) both had direct meeting with God during their lives
10) both never claim to be God or Son of God
11) both escaped the wrath of their unbeleivers and lived
12) both were ordered to flee for their religion
13) both were tracked by their enemies while fleeing
14) both were reached by their enemies and God saved them by a miracle
15) both were ordered to tell their people to slaught a sheep in the feast
16) both took the harder way of fleeing not the shorter way
17) Both took the red sea road while fleeing from their enemies with their religion
18 ) Both were fleeing with someone (Moses with his people, Mohammad with his friend "Abu-Bakr")
19) both informed people that God had created earth and heavens in 6 days
20) both fought there enemies by the sword
21) Both agreed on the saying "eye for eye, tooth for tooth"
But Jesus said : "But say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Mat 5:39 )
22) Both Had promise from Allah to drive out their enemies before them (Moses in Exo 23:28 ) (Mohammad in El-Fat'h "Vistory" chapter 48 )
23) Both reached promised victory in their lives
24) Moses was claimed to be aided by fear (Exo 23:28 ), Mohammad was aided by fear for a month ("Sahih El-Bukhari" 7273)
25) Both their people lived as strangers out of their homeland for long time (Moses's People in Egypt (Exo 23:9 ), and Mohammad's People in Medina and Ethiopia)
26) Both were ordered to break down the non-beleivers' images (Exo 23:25)
27) Both had to go to a higher place to meet with their God (Moses on a mountain, Mohammad to heaven)
28 ) Both were promised from their God to help them by sending Angels to help them fight the non-beleivers
29) Both Brought entirely new laws than before
30) Both died normally
31) Both were burried in the ground and still is
32) Both were considered as kings from their people and foes
33) Both had human father and human mother
34) Both were prophets
35) Both were mere humans..Not claimed to be God or Son of God
36) Both didn't die for the sins of the world
37) Both didn't visit Hell for 3 days
38 ) Both ordered their people to immigrate to another place
39) Both didn't show any miracles untill they started preaching..Jesus was even born miraculously..

NewSeed and Some Others Wrote
Believer said:
Quote:
Mujihadeen, stop trying to evade the subject of this thread. If you cannot show how Muhammed is closer to Moses than Jesus, then this thread is too much for you.


Personally, I wish you would explain how Muhammad is closer to Moses as you have yet to give such list as Scorpion has given you.

If you can't, just say so. At least you will have our respect for being honest.


Well that must be more than enough to prove that Mohammad is more like Moses, Jesus more unlike Moses

May Allah be our way and goal
"Say: O People of the scripture. Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords besides Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they (The Muslims) who have surrendered (unto Him)"
(The Noble Quran 3:64)

Omega

Postby Omega » Wed May 12, 2004 04:27 pm

Do you realise since the angel moron came and visited Muhammad that He moron was the Spirit of the False Prophet, which is the 2nd Chief Demonic Spirit! It is He{False Prophet}who is exalting the Dragon through the AntiChrist{The other Chief Demonic Spirit}

And since Muhammad was possessed with the Spirit of the False Prophet{Great Deceiver}, who can deceive any person on this planet who has not the Holy Spirit. This Spirit of the FALSE Prophet imitated the TRUE PROPHETS{Moses, and JESUS THE SON OF GOD} Since he is the FALSE PROPHET!

This is the Truth and you WILL NEVER BELIEVE ME!!!

You are a slave to your god who is a fallen angel who envies the True God.

Example:"Jesus is NOTHING MORE than a prophet"

When those who express themselves with the Holy Spirit say,"Jesus is Both Lord and God and died and was resurrected the third day and paid the penalty for our sins, AMEN "

Goodbye!

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Postby MuhammedAli » Wed May 12, 2004 06:42 pm

I am watching you, Lucifer is here :o , And I am so happy to Respond to SCORPION you only need to ask me, you know something I will reffute SCORPIONS message point by point, letter by letter, sentence by sentence, beleive in Lucifer.
:D :lol:

:lol: 8)
:roll:
:evil:

Omega

Postby Omega » Wed May 12, 2004 06:44 pm

And i will say to you from the LORD:

IF THE BLIND LEAD THE BLIND THEY WILL BOTH FALL INTO THE BOTTOMLESS PIT AND INTO ETERNAL FIRE!

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Postby newseed » Wed May 12, 2004 06:54 pm

MuhammedAli wrote:
I am watching you, Lucifer is here, And I am so happy to Respond to SCORPION you only need to ask me, you know something I will reffute SCORPIONS message point by point, letter by letter, sentence by sentence, beleive in Lucifer.


Sound very santanic to me.

I REBUKE YOU IN JESUS NAME!

Ephesians 6:10-18

10: Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11: Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12: For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13: Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14: Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15: And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16: Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17: And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

AMEN!

For His Harvest,
Eddie
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John 14:7-9 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. From now on, you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you such a long time, and do you not know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. How do you say, 'Show us the Father?'

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Postby MuhammedAli » Wed May 12, 2004 06:55 pm

PROBLEM HERE is that even the one who can see are falling in mud. the similarities between Moses and Muhammed are fundamental to the Message of Moses and to the Message of Muhammed. I am sure that when LOrd said Like Moses he didnt mean that they will look like each other, Lord didnt intend twins, how do we know one person is like Moses compare the most important facts of the two, if we start saying Jesus/MUhammed had Less/more hair on his head therefore none of them is like Moses, Moses was taller/shorter then muhammed/jesus therefore both cant be like Moses, Jesus and MUhammed had less/more hair then Moses in their beards therefore they are not like each other. You understand the point i am making we are taking absolutely non-sensical points regarding this "like unto thee".

Ali

Omega

Postby Omega » Wed May 12, 2004 06:57 pm

God Bless Eddie!

Let them be, lunchtime for me, be back. :D

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Postby Abdullah » Thu May 13, 2004 01:22 am

Salam, Knite of Islam has made very very good points, with everything he said, u cannot claim he wasnt da one, and also omge and newseed, wat does ur blabbering have 2 do with Knite of Islam points? I dont like the hypocritsy here when sumone says stick 2 da topic, when they in return do the same, peace

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Postby KniteOfIslam » Thu May 13, 2004 01:35 am

Dear Friends

MuhammadAli wrote:
the similarities between Moses and Muhammed are fundamental to the Message of Moses and to the Message of Muhammed


Bulls eye my brother, exactly my point..we have to take the personality matters..and it's in favour of "Mohammad is most like Moses, Jesus is most Unlike Moses" also

Abdullah wrote:
Salam, Knite of Islam has made very very good points, with everything he said, u cannot claim he wasnt da one, and also omge and newseed, wat does ur blabbering have 2 do with Knite of Islam points? I dont like the hypocritsy here when sumone says stick 2 da topic, when they in return do the same, peace


Thank you very much my brother

Omega wrote:
Do you realise since the angel moron came and visited Muhammad that He moron was the Spirit of the False Prophet, which is the 2nd Chief Demonic Spirit! It is He{False Prophet}who is exalting the Dragon through the AntiChrist{The other Chief Demonic Spirit}


He also wrote:
You are a slave to your god who is a fallen angel who envies the True God.


With too much reds and big shouts..I think he might want to burn me not convince me..
Also I guess this would be a violation to rules no. 2, no. 4 and no. 7 anounced in this forum..Omega must be banned I think..where is the Moderators...Oh..I guess he is one...


He also kindly wrote:
And since Muhammad was possessed with the Spirit of the False Prophet{Great Deceiver}, who can deceive any person on this planet who has not the Holy Spirit. This Spirit of the FALSE Prophet imitated the TRUE PROPHETS{Moses, and JESUS THE SON OF GOD} Since he is the FALSE PROPHET!


Now What??..is it ur way or the high way?...
Is the debate here is about Mohammad is either not like Moses or A false prophet..is that ur idea about intelectual and civilized discussion??
I think you could just ask me to leave..I would have done it gladly not to cause u any trouble..

Peace to All and take care

May Allah be our way and goal
"Say: O People of the scripture. Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords besides Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they (The Muslims) who have surrendered (unto Him)"

(The Noble Quran 3:64)

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Postby Believer » Thu May 13, 2004 04:16 am

[quote=KniteofIslam"]Bulls eye my brother, exactly my point..we have to take the personality matters..and it's in favour of "Mohammad is most like Moses, Jesus is most Unlike Moses" also [/quote]


Moses and Jesus were Jewish.
Both Moses and Jesus hid in Egypt (as children) during a slaughter of babies.
Moses commanded 12 tribes while Jesus commanded 12 apostles.
God the Father spoke directly to both Moses and Jesus.
Moses and Jesus were both called the meekest of all men at their time.
Both had faces that radiated light.
Both worked miracles that both their followers and unbelievers observed.
Both fasted for forty days.
Both physically controlled water (making it possible to walk through or on it).
Both chemically controlled water (Moses turned water to blood Jesus turned water into wine).
Both Moses and Jesus knew when they would die.
They both died on a hill.
Jesus fed thousands of people with 2 fish and 5 loafs of bread (John 6:10-2) and Moses fed the Isrealites with manna (John 6:31).
Moses was a learned man and Jesus knew the Scripture well.
Moses and Jesus had followers that heard the voice of God
Moses and Jesus had a unique relationship with God.
Moses and Jesus both had to flee for their lives (Jesus was almost stoned)
Both Moses and Jesus were called to bring their people out of bondage
Both Jesus and Moses were disliked by the established authorities.
Moses gave the 10 commandments, Jesus gave the two Great commandments.
They both taught others how to pray
They lived a life of hardship
Their Followers strayed from their teachings



You find me a list half as long as this of unique similarities between Moses and Muhammed and I would be impressed.
There are major correlations between Moses and Jesus.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;

in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

-Hebrews 1:1-2

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Postby KniteOfIslam » Thu May 13, 2004 03:12 pm

MY FRIEND BELEIVER

I THINK U DIDN'T READ THE SUBJECT, U JUST ADDED A QUICK REPLY..

I ALREADY DICUSSED THOSE POINTS WITHIN MY SUBJECT..SORRY NO NEW POINTS TO REPLY TO HERE.. 8)

YOU EVEN JUST COPIED UR OLD SUBJECT FROM THE THREAD
"Jesus UNLIKE Moses, Muhammad LIKE Moses"

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=4142

I'M NOT SURE IF THIS IS ANOTHER VIOLATION TO YOUR OWN RULE NO. 3...


FORUM RULE NO. 3 SAYS:

3. No spamming, trolling, or cross posting. Don’t post the same message in multiple threads repetition will not validate your position. Trolling consists of provoking large volumes of responses by posting absurdities, deliberately offensive insults, etc. We reserve the right to delete multiple, absurd, and deliberately offensive messages.


http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=2036


GUESS THAT MIGHT MAKE U BANNED.. :wink:
OH...BUT I GUESS U R A MODERATOR TOO..


PEACE TO ALL
AND TAKE CARE

MAY ALLAH BE OUR WAY AND GOAL
"Say: O People of the scripture. Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords besides Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they (The Muslims) who have surrendered (unto Him)"

(The Noble Quran 3:64)

Omega

Postby Omega » Thu May 13, 2004 04:19 pm

Abdullah wrote:Salam, Knite of Islam has made very very good points, with everything he said, u cannot claim he wasnt da one, and also omge and newseed, wat does ur blabbering have 2 do with Knite of Islam points? I dont like the hypocritsy here when sumone says stick 2 da topic, when they in return do the same, peace


Call me and newseed a hypocrite, that is your problem, try and reading what you have just wrote in the quote, quoted above! And read between the lines my blind friend. Some cannot see, but see far more better than you who could see.

And those who think they see will be blind in eternal darkness, in the hereafter.

I should author a book called, "Muhammad, LIAR AND FALSE PROPHET!!!"

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Postby Believer » Thu May 13, 2004 09:34 pm

Peace Knife of Islam,

MY FRIEND BELEIVER

I THINK U DIDN'T READ THE SUBJECT, U JUST ADDED A QUICK REPLY..

I ALREADY DICUSSED THOSE POINTS WITHIN MY SUBJECT..SORRY NO NEW POINTS TO REPLY TO HERE..

YOU EVEN JUST COPIED UR OLD SUBJECT FROM THE THREAD
"Jesus UNLIKE Moses, Muhammad LIKE Moses"

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=4142

I'M NOT SURE IF THIS IS ANOTHER VIOLATION TO YOUR OWN RULE NO. 3...


Well, forgive me but I missed your comments on the vast list of similarities between Jesus and Moses.
If it's not too much of a hassle, please give me a few good reasons why I should dismiss this great amazing list of similarities between Jesus and Moses when Moses and Muhammed have much less in common.

I only repeated this because NOBODY READS!
I need to keep repeating myself so this will sink into your head.

The topic of this thread ois "Who is the Prophet?"
It is JESUS until you can show and prove otherwise. I have seen no reason to dismiss this great list of similarities between Jesus and Moses.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;

in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

-Hebrews 1:1-2

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Postby MuhammedAli » Fri May 14, 2004 03:13 am

Sorry Christians, I cant help butting my head into your mess :lol: , so i wont stop my self. Has i said I will refutte the points of Scorpion, so i will do the honours. I am so funny :lol: :lol: :roll:

1. Moses offered to take the sins of Israel on himself in Exodus 32:30-32 ... Jesus was sacrificed for the sins of mankind


The verse sas "Like unto Moses", for Jesus to be like Moses he also have to OFFER to take the sins of ISRAEL. while jesus TOOK the sins of MANKIND, thats not like Moses, thats unlike Moses. Good start heh! :oops: :D :lol:

2. Moses was transfigured on Mt. Sinai (Exodus 34:29) ... Jesus was transfigured in Matthew 17:1-6


Elijah was also transfigured, so on the basis of this similarity he is also a candidate for like Moses, not only Jesus, read matthew the refference you gave. :wink:

3. Moses came out of Egypt at the Exodus, and Jesus went to Egypt as a baby and returned.


For Jesus to be like Moses he should have come from Egypt not gone there and come back, on top how many other people went to and came back from egypt, and some only came from Egypt to Israel, does that mean they are like Moses, this point of comming and going to egypt is childish, find one better.

4. Moses was brought up by his mother as a nurse in Pharaoh's household, and Jesus was brought up by Mary, but Muhammad was an orphan (!!!!!!!). Moses was saved as a baby in the rushes; Jesus was saved when God told Joseph to take him to Egypt


Moses was brought up by a hired mother, someone who gets paid for taking care of babies (thats biblical version, Islamic says mother of Moses was taking care of Moses in his childhood) Muhammed was also sent to the beduin tribes where he stayed, and his Daih (or Nurse Mother's name was Halimah Sadia), therefore Moses and Muhammed both where like each other, Jesus was the odd one out. Secondly these similarities are pointless, talk about the fundamentle similarities, like Moses Muhammed both prophets Jesus god, yours are like, Muhamed slept one hour less then Moses therefore Muhammed is not like Moses, thats ridiculious, and a very shalow reasoning.

5. Moses was a Miracle worker ... Jesus was a miracle worker


Muhammed was also a miracle worker, his miracle is the Quran, and he performed many miracles. but Miracles prove nothing, phiroah's magician performed miracles they made sticks into snakes, thats a miracle, what makes you think that its not a miracle, on the face of it, Moses, Jesus and the Sorcers where doing nothing different all of them where breaking the laws of on which the universe is governed by, only one gets the title or miracle the other magic. ON this basis the Fir-aun's Magicians are also like Moses like Jesus, and like Muhammed, miracles prove nothing, they are not unique to Jesus and Moses, many others have performed them.

6. Moses was a shephard ... Jesus also said he was "THE Good Shephard"


Muhammed was also a shepard, read something good for once. Moses was not a good shepard therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhammed was a shepard, therefore he is like Moses

Now THESE are striking similarities, but oh no .. it doesn't stop here ... for the benefit of the doubt, read on, and be amazed at the similarities between Moses and Jesus ...


Oh yeah! talk about the fundamental similarities that are mentioned by the Muslim they are the fundamental similarities not what you are talking about. Oh you will be so amazed at the end of this that yu will say i hear and i confirm that Jesus is not like Moses.

7. Lived in Egypt. Jesus lived in Egypt as an infant (Matt. 2:13-21)


MIllions lived in there infant age in Egypt not only Jesus, tell me something unique about Jesus which he dont share with someone else, oops :roll: thats all, "no more mud for the pig to get dirty in." (that means no more excuses)

8. Had His Face Glow With Light, but it faded away (Exodus 34:29-35 and 2nd Corinthians 3:12-13). The face of Jesus shined like the sun (Matthew 17:1-5) and is still shining like the sun while in heaven (Revelation 1:9-19)


For him to be like Moses his face should glow and then fade away not stay shining like sun, thats unlike Moses, you are so good in refuting your self :lol: this is the easiest reffutation i have written against a missionary.,

9. Deliverer of His Brethren who would Follow Him Out of Physical Slavery then he gave them the law. Jesus came and gave law and commandments to His followers. Then He delivered them and other followers around the world out of the spiritual slavery of sin and
Satan


For him to be like Moses he has to do what Moses did in exatly the same way, you cant have two same pictures, one blakandwhite will the other and say they are exactly the same.

10. Grew up in a Country where the King, Pharaoh, was Afraid that the Slaves would Revolt. Jesus grew up where King Herod, "the Great," was afraid the descendants of those very same slaves would revolt


Vow! :o thats absolutly unique to Jesus and Moses, millions of Jews/muslims/Christians grew up in the reign of Hitler, Stalin, Sadam, while there leaders thought they will revolt against theree leader, and history is full of such examples kings living in fear that their subjects might revolt against him. that was a tough one :D i have to confess :oops: .

11. Father was a Mystery to the General Public. The Father of Jesus and the facts of His virgin birth were a mystery to the general public (Luke 1)


YOu have literally millions of people who have the same mystery like Jesus, they dont know who there father is, Europe and america is full of bastard children, the woman takes her pleasure and thats all one night stand is over, she never sees that man again, and the voila! we have a child born without a father, this Mystery is everyday thing in your countries, yet thats still uniqe to Jessu and Moses.

Moses brought a MORAL LAW to his people from God, Muhammed brought a MORAL LAW to his people from God so did, thats unique to them two no other person on the face of earth other then them two. Jesus came to confirm the Law not to destroy it, so he brought nothing new that was significantly different from the law of Moses.

12. Was Adopted into the Royal Family of Pharaoh. Jesus was adopted by His step-father, Joseph, into the royal family line of King David and Solomon (Matt. 1)


For Jesus to be like Moses he would have to be adopted by Herod, one king adopts, the other king should also adopt Jesus. he is not like MOses.

13. 40 Years was Tested in Wilderness. Jesus was tested 40 days in the wilderness and had approximately 40 months of public teaching and miracle working


Note that the significant thing in this is not the time or years or days or months, but the number 40 is the number, Muhammed was 40 years of age when he started to receive his revelation of Quran, and before this age he was being prepared for his job of prophethood.

14. 40 Days Fasting (Exodus 34:2. Jesus fasted 40 days (Matt. 4)


I think i am not sure that Muhammed also fasted for 40 days, but i think he did meditate for 40 days also, but this is not sure.

15. The White Hand of Leprosy (Exodus 4:6-7). Jesus healed many different people of leprosy (Luke 17:11-19) (unlike Jesus, Mohammed never healed anybody did he?)


Yes he did, one of his campanion was blind has he got older he couldnt look-after himself, beign blind that made it worse for him so he asked that if Rasool-allah could pray for him to get his sight back, Muhammed said cant you bear it for few more years, he said no i cant, and started to cry, then Rasool-allah put his hand on his eyes and read the first surah of the Quran and he was cured a Jew copied the same when he heard this, but when he failed he asked why didnt it work, Rasool-allah said, did you read it has i read it (meaning, did you read the surah with love and sincirity, and truthfullness has i did). There are literaly hudereds of miracle which he performed but Muslims dont pay attention to them for few reason i have given above, that anybody could do them even a evil sorcer, he could heal people. Plus those miracles have no value today, because each age had its miracle, his time was poetry so the quran was poetically perfect, in the time of Moses Magic was the standard for judging the truth, so Moses was given the power to perofm miracles to over power the sorcers, in the time of Jesus the Medicine was a standard for judging the truth, so Allah gave Jesus the power to heal the sick without medicine, and in THIS age the science is the standard to judge he truth by so the Miracle of Muhammed is the Quran which answers all AGES. In the Era of debates teh Quran was ahead, in the era of poetry the Quran was ahead and in the era of science quran is ahead, \Quran is a miracle of miracles. Miracles of Moses Jesus cant be done again but the Miracle of Muhammed is demonstrated again and again in every new era, thas a real miracle for you.

16. Moses Asked that the great Sin of His People be Forgiven (Exodus 32:31-32). Jesus asked that the great sin of His people be forgiven (Luke 23:34)

So did Muhammed.

17. Moses split the waters at the crossing at the Red Sea ... Jesus also showed Control of the weather and calmed the storm on the Sea of Galilee, Did mohammed ever control weather? Im he didn't.


He controled the clouds with Allahs permission he went from one place to another the clouds would cover him so he dont get sun burn, when he made the prayer for rain it came, when he prayed for crops thhey grew, A jew gave some date seeds to muhammed to grow them instantly, muhamemd was abut to do it when the jew asked him to give them back, he did, the jew burnt them to ashes and then gave them back and said well now do it, so he did, those date trees grew in his site from the ashes and when the friute was on them those dates where without seeds, because they where without the seeds in the first place, those dates are called AJWAH DATES. He controlled the everything with the will of Allah.

For Jesus to be like Moses he has to part the red sea or any sea, again he didnt.

18. Fire was important. At Mt. Horeb/Mt. Sinai there was fire (Ex. 3:1-6; 19:18 and 24:12-1 and there was the pillar of fire (Ex. 13:21-22). Jesus baptized the people with the Holy Spirit and with fire (Matt. 3:11-17 and Acts 2:1-4)


Muhammed used the fire to cook his meals, there is no similiarity with what Muhammed did nor Jesus did, nor what Moses did, so i dont see how that is like Moses

19. Moses Was faithful as a Servant in all his house (Hebrews 3:5). Jesus was faithful as a Son over His house (Hebrews 3:6). Thats interesting, These scriptures mention Jesus after talking about Moses in the previous scripture.


For Jesus to be like Moses he has to be servant not Son, unless the son means a servant and you misudnerstood it to mean only-sexually-produced son of god.

20. Brought water from a rock by a miracle (Exodus 17). Jesus Himself was the Living Water which was brought out of the tomb-rock which could not hold Him (John 7:37-3.


For Jesus to be like Moses he has to bring water out of rock,

Had enough yet? No? Well keep reading, because there are more striking and amazing UNIQUE similarites between Moses and Jesus ...


No! No! I just was beginning to like this, i feel so stupid exposing your stupidity, even a kid can do that.

21. A mountain was prominent in his work where the law was given for a nation. A mountain was prominent in the work of Jesus. He gave the famous Sermon on the Mountain with the law for people of all nations (Matthew 5, 6, & 7).


So the moutain was also prominant in thelife of Muhamed, he went to meditate in the moutain, he received his first revelation on a moutain, caled Irah, and Soor, other to hills which are significant Safa and Marwa.

22. An angel watched over his body (Jude 1:9). Jesus had at least two angels watching over His body (John 20)


Thats angel more then Moses for him to be like moses one angel please.

Look dude its getting ridiculous doinng this, even a kid can reffute your claims, just have a little sense

Ali

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Postby MuhammedAli » Fri May 14, 2004 03:41 am

I just waved 22 of your Like Moses good bye, only few more to go, if you really have the itch i will wave them bye too :lol: , I am always willing for a punch-up, but i bet you wont even get your gloves on, cause you know befre the round starts you will be a knock-out needing special medical treatment in your local church from your personel Saviour. :lol: I try to be funny, i dont like serious people :)

Moses and Jesus were Jewish.


So was John the baptist, Elijah, Solomon they also where Jews

Both Moses and Jesus hid in Egypt (as children) during a slaughter of babies.


Jesus RUN to Egypt to hide from the slaugter, while Moses hid in Egypt, hardly a similarity.

Moses commanded 12 tribes while Jesus commanded 12 apostles.

There is difference between TRIBES and PEOPLE, thinking if one American raped a woman, that means all americans raped her, or controlling 12 people is same has 12 countries, only the number is same, i can juggle 4 oranges, 3 bananas, 5 grapes in one go thats 12 altogather, therefore i am equally strong contender like Moses prophecy, since all i need to do is to match the number, doesnt matter what i did. Moses United the 12 tribes, and jesus 12 people, vow thats good acheivement, we should give him the noble peace prize.

God the Father spoke directly to both Moses and Jesus.


You make your mind, Moses being prophet and talking to god and jesus being son of God infact only begotten son of god, or only sexually produced son, big difference heh! :D

Moses and Jesus were both called the meekest of all men at their time.


So was Ghandi, Gautamah Budha, they where also meekest

Both had faces that radiated light.


So what my wives face radiates when she puts on make-up, hardly difficult, so much glitter that you can see her from pakistan, thats how much she shines, i bet Jesus couldnt do that.

Wasting my time here, no point discussing. its a futile excercise.

Ali

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Postby Mujahideen » Fri May 14, 2004 04:56 am

Omega is just trying to make personal attacks and avoid the discussion because KniteofIslam halted him in his tracks.

May Allah reward you from His Infinite Blessings Knite of Islam.
Allah is the One.

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Postby MuhammedAli » Fri May 14, 2004 07:30 am

stupid me, i have been writting about what already had been answered. Damn it i should read a bit more. Well done brother missionary learnt the lesson, but i would like to advice you in a nice way that try to wrok on original and new points, it gets quite boring with the same arguments again and again over the net, allah has gven you the intelligence to write against the Christians, now you better develope your own material and not barrow from others, it will benefit you alot, its good to start from some already material such has Ahmed Deedat, but most of his material is fairly basic, by using his material you can further develop them and get them into new dimention, any way i have written my wresponse in the lucifers pride, its worth a check and alot of new material, differnt arguements against the old enemy.

was-salam
Ali

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Postby KniteOfIslam » Fri May 14, 2004 03:01 pm

My friends

My Dear brother MuhammadAli

Thank you very much 4 ur effort and ur advice..
Jazak Allahu Khairan (Means: May Allah Reward u with the best)
I'm already using the style u r advicing..Developing classic and basic subjects, and it proves very good..As we don't need to reinvent the wheel..But to develop it..
I'm trynig to catch with ur thread "Lucifer's Pride", but it's bit big and very rich subject and the one thing I'm short of is time right now..But the eye and mind can't miss the big effort u r doing..


My dear brother Mujahideen Thank u for the support pal

My friend Believer

You Wrote:

I only repeated this because NOBODY READS!
I need to keep repeating myself so this will sink into your head.


No problem buddy, I can understand, and please don't get upset (or anyone else here) from me if I threw some jokes around..
We are here to put our hands on the truth, and this is the bottom line..
I have many christian friends in Europe and USA (due to my line of work in exporting)..we used to discuss religion often, it can get wild sometime..but we always leave laughing as friends..
our religion orders us to be good in Da'wa (in english means : Calling(to God's way)..)


"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things"(Nobel Quran 2:256)

"Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance"(Nobel Quran 16:125)


(Very important note: Christians used to think that Allah is another God than theirs, but I can assure u that it is the same God who creates, We call Him Allah, U call Him Father, Jews Call Him Eluhim)

Also my friend You wrote:

The topic of this thread ois "Who is the Prophet?"
It is JESUS until you can show and prove otherwise. I have seen no reason to dismiss this great list of similarities between Jesus and Moses.


Our friend Scorpion gave 55 similarities between Jesus and Moses, I proved that about 35 of them can be applied to Mohammad (Pbuh) too, and for the 20 left I gave about 40 points (twice as many) to prove similarities between Moses and Mohammad..
Kindly read my subject again on page 1 of this thread here and give me ur openion..

Also remember that u wrote:

You find me a list half as long as this of unique similarities between Moses and Muhammed and I would be impressed.
There are major correlations between Moses and Jesus.


I guess I gave u not ONLY half but almost four times ur points..
I EXPECT U TO KINDLY STICK TO YOUR WORD AND MENTION THAT IN YOUR NEXT MESSAGE

Peace to all
Take care

May Allah be our way and goal
"Say: O People of the scripture. Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords besides Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they (The Muslims) who have surrendered (unto Him)"

(The Noble Quran 3:64)

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Postby Believer » Sat May 15, 2004 12:37 am

Peace MuhammedAli and KniteOfIslam,


[bMoses and Jesus were Jewish. [/b]

So was John the baptist, Elijah, Solomon they also where Jews


Indeed, and Jesus was a brother to Moses.
As is stated by Moses. The Prophet is his brother, and a brother of the Jews of the 12th century BC.
Jews of the 1st century AD were their brothers.


Both Moses and Jesus hid in Egypt (as children) during a slaughter of babies.

Jesus RUN to Egypt to hide from the slaugter, while Moses hid in Egypt, hardly a similarity.


That was very poor.
Jesus and Moses were in the midst of a slaughtering of innocence by an evil king. Such did not happen with Muhammed.
This is something unique Jesus and Moses have in common that Muhammed does not.


Moses commanded 12 tribes while Jesus commanded 12 apostles.

There is difference between TRIBES and PEOPLE, thinking if one American raped a woman, that means all americans raped her, or controlling 12 people is same has 12 countries, only the number is same, i can juggle 4 oranges, 3 bananas, 5 grapes in one go thats 12 altogather, therefore i am equally strong contender like Moses prophecy, since all i need to do is to match the number, doesnt matter what i did. Moses United the 12 tribes, and jesus 12 people, vow thats good acheivement, we should give him the noble peace prize.


12 is a significant Biblical number.


You make your mind, Moses being prophet and talking to god and jesus being son of God infact only begotten son of god, or only sexually produced son, big difference heh!


We are comparing the man Jesus with Moses.


Moses and Jesus were both called the meekest of all men at their time.


So was Ghandi, Gautamah Budha, they where also meekest


Aaaahhh, but this was stated in the Bible.


So what my wives face radiates when she puts on make-up, hardly difficult, so much glitter that you can see her from pakistan, thats how much she shines, i bet Jesus couldnt do that.


It is stated in Scripture that Moses' face shined when He came down from seeing God on Mt. Sinai.
Jesus face shined like the sun during the transfiguration.

Wasting my time here, no point discussing. its a futile excercise.


You're wasting my time with these very pathetic painful attempts at a rebuttal.





No problem buddy, I can understand, and please don't get upset (or anyone else here) from me if I threw some jokes around..
We are here to put our hands on the truth, and this is the bottom line..
I have many christian friends in Europe and USA (due to my line of work in exporting)..we used to discuss religion often, it can get wild sometime..but we always leave laughing as friends..
our religion orders us to be good in Da'wa (in english means : Calling(to God's way)..)

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things"(Nobel Quran 2:256)

"Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance"(Nobel Quran 16:125)


Okay.
Nice verses from the Quran.
Too bad when one leaves Islam for another faith they feel is the Truth, they are issued death threats and sometimes killed.
No compulsion?


(Very important note: Christians used to think that Allah is another God than theirs, but I can assure u that it is the same God who creates, We call Him Allah, U call Him Father, Jews Call Him Eluhim)


JW's and mormons say they belieev in the God of Abraham.
No, incorrect religions do not have God in them.


Our friend Scorpion gave 55 similarities between Jesus and Moses, I proved that about 35 of them can be applied to Mohammad (Pbuh) too, and for the 20 left I gave about 40 points (twice as many) to prove similarities between Moses and Mohammad..
Kindly read my subject again on page 1 of this thread here and give me ur openion..


Friend, you gave your spin on them, like MuhammedAli gave on my similarities (well, some of them), and he was not correct.
Help him out if you'd like in answering my post to him, and the other similarities from my list he did not comment on , Scorpion and I are different.


guess I gave u not ONLY half but almost four times ur points..
I EXPECT U TO KINDLY STICK TO YOUR WORD AND MENTION THAT IN YOUR NEXT MESSAGE


I mean unique similaries.
Jesus's and Moses's infant lives threatened by a masacre of innocents.
That indeed is something very unique Jesus and Moses share.
Jesus and Moses both physically and chemically altered water.
The astonishing correlations between Jesus and Moses help prove that Jesus is the Prophet that Moses spoke of is like him.

Muhammed has more in common with the warrior-prophet Joshua then with Moses.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;

in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

-Hebrews 1:1-2

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Postby KniteOfIslam » Sat May 15, 2004 12:44 am

Sorry My friend Believer

These are not my points..:P :D
My points are at the end of page 1.. 8) :D
I gave u 40 unique similarities between Moses and Mohammad..
I still expect you keep ur words and I'm still waiting ur declaration.. :wink:

I hope this time u read the right post labeled by my name at the end of page 1..
otherwise next time I can draw u a map to my post..:lol:

May Allah be our way and goal
"Say: O People of the scripture. Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords besides Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they (The Muslims) who have surrendered (unto Him)"

(The Noble Quran 3:64)

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Postby MuhammedAli » Sat May 15, 2004 01:43 am

Indeed, and Jesus was a brother to Moses.
As is stated by Moses. The Prophet is his brother, and a brother of the Jews of the 12th century BC.
Jews of the 1st century AD were their brothers.


All prophets are brothers, but Jesus was not a prophet according to your doctrine, he was son of god, secondly Muhammed is also brother of Moses, Jesus, and all the prophets, the Quran states that all the prophets are brothers.

Jesus and Moses were in the midst of a slaughtering of innocence by an evil king. Such did not happen with Muhammed.
This is something unique Jesus and Moses have in common that Muhammed does not.


Very cunning missionary! Jesus was not in the midst of slaughter, he escaped to Egypt according to your NT, he lived in Egypt till he was older and then came back, while Moses didnt run off anywhere, he escaped from the his house to the house of Fir-aun. YOu lied! a common charateristic of a missionary.

There is a poem in punjabiy Alam Lahor a pakistani forlklore singer who sings,

"bu Jahil nay a ker awaaz meri, Talashi lowah ga keraah dee meh sari,
meh wekah ga makkeh day wich an-da heh baal kerah,"

Which again is not confirmed, in this poem he mentions that arch enemy of Islam sent a search party out for Muhammed (pbuh) when he was born, and intended to kill MUhammed, but again this is a shia singer and they incoproate alot of fabricated material in there history of Islam, which is to say i do not beleive it until i get a suni refference to this who accepts this, but just did that to entertain you, bold and italic is irrelevent to the discussion.


12 is a significant Biblical number.


So is my juggling of twelve significant according to the number 12. Proves nothing, neither Jesus having 12 deciples, and moses having 12 tribes, and me juggling 12 fruites, all proves nothing, only proves the shalow, desperate, cheap, attempts to attribute anything to Jesus. Before you come to debate the first criteria has to be objectiveness, second honesty, third confession of wrong and right soon when it is pointed, fourth a what ever you write has to be the conviction of heart most of what you write in responses to us regarding 18:18 do you honestly beleive that jesus is like Moses, just ask your self, you can lie to me but not to your self.

[We are comparing the man Jesus with Moses.


Muhammed went to Isra-wal Miraaj, thats a journey from Mekah to Jeruslem, where he became the leader of all the prophets and then went to miraaj where he met Allah face to face. not that you beleive in it, its our beleife.

Aaaahhh, but this was stated in the Bible.


Bible doesnt mention the sky sports, or sky digi box, or Muhammed Ali was a great boxer that doesnt mean they don't exist, and that dont mean Muhammed Ali was not a great boxer, if bible doesnt mention that Gandhi an budha where not the meekest does that mean they where not, does everything have to be in the bible to exist! Out of fairyland into the real world please.

It doesnt matter If Muhammed was Like Moses or not, weather we can prove the prophethood of MUhammed with bible or not is totally irrelevent.

You honestly beleive that Jesus is like Moses, just swear oath on Bible or type something like:

I absolutly beleive that Jesus is like Moses, in much more better ways then Muhammed, and If I lie regarding my heart felt conviction then i pray that god curses my life, and sends me to the deepest hell, and if i tell the truth then i go to heaven have salvbation.


Now dont make excuses, oh i wont do this because of this and this, if you are convinced then you will not hesitate. :D

look if you dont want to beleive in something people will always find fault in it, oh muahmmed had shorter beard then Moses therefore he was not like MOses, its in humans nature to defend whats precious to them, with wat ever means, even a totaly absurd ludicurious reason to say i dont beleive in it because ot this. what KniteOFIslam stated where the fundamental reasons why Jesu was not like Moses, But i disagree with him i say Jesus was like MOses in the same way has Muhamed is, because the Quran says Jesus was a prophet not son of God, not part of trinity, didnt die on cross, didnt die for the sin of mankind, most of his arguments are against christian attributed doctrines to Jesus, then Obections to Jesus being like Moses. but against your beleife they are devastating because they are fundamental to your doctrine and not to Moses's Torah. Islamicly speaking Jesus is like Moses, but christianly speaking he is not.

Ali[/quote]

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Postby Believer » Sat May 15, 2004 09:07 pm

Peace KnightOfIslam,

01) Both have been raised in other house than their parents'


So do alot of people. Jesus's real father was God Hismelf, so Mary and Joseph were hid adopted parents.

02) both were super strong..(look next point)
03) both used their personal strength against unbeleivers..moses killed a man violently in defense of a man of his own people..mohammad wrestled the strongest man in the area and knocked him off three times


Joshua was like this moreso than Moses.

04) both actually worked as a shephard (Not Spiritual Shephard)


A shepard is a shepard.

05) both married
06) both had children


So are most people on earth. This is very pathetic.

07) both was orderd to start working to end the slavery of human to another human (physical slavery not spiritual)


Slavery is slavery.

08 ) both recieved the revalation on a mountain (Moses in Saini, Mohammad in Hera' cave on the mountain)


Moses saw God Himself while Muhammed just saw a angel.
This is very different.

09) both had direct meeting with God during their lives


So did all of the prophets.

10) both never claim to be God or Son of God


Very pathetic.

11) both escaped the wrath of their unbeleivers and lived


Jesus was almost stoned by disbelievers, and escaped.

12) both were ordered to flee for their religion


Where was Moses ordered to flee for his religion?

13) both were tracked by their enemies while fleeing


No one came after Moses when he fled.

14) both were reached by their enemies and God saved them by a miracle


Same happened with most of the prophets and kings.

15) both were ordered to tell their people to slaught a sheep in the feast


When Jews were hungry for meat, they generally slaughtered a goat or sheep.

16) both took the harder way of fleeing not the shorter way


That is a silly thing to list.

17) Both took the red sea road while fleeing from their enemies with their religion


Moses split the sea. He physically controlled water like Christ.

18 ) Both were fleeing with someone (Moses with his people, Mohammad with his friend "Abu-Bakr") [/quotw]

Jesus fled a near stoning with his disciples.

19) both informed people that God had created earth and heavens in 6 days


Another stupid thing to list.

20) both fought there enemies by the sword


Joshua foght with the sword much much more than Moses.
Muhammed and Joshua have more in common.

21) Both agreed on the saying "eye for eye, tooth for tooth"But Jesus said : "But say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Mat 5:39 )


It was justifiable in 1200 BC, and Jesus said that is not the way to be.
Muhammed regressed from God's Word.

22) Both Had promise from Allah to drive out their enemies before them (Moses in Exo 23:28 ) (Mohammad in El-Fat'h "Vistory" chapter 48 )


Joshua recieved many more of these promises.
Again, Muhammed and Joshua have more in common.

23) Both reached promised victory in their lives


Moses SAW it, but did not reach it.

25) Both their people lived as strangers out of their homeland for long time (Moses's People in Egypt (Exo 23:9 ), and Mohammad's People in Medina and Ethiopia)


Moses's people lived in Egypt for centuries, but Muhammed's followers only lived in these lands for a few years. Big difference.

26) Both were ordered to break down the non-beleivers' images (Exo 23:25)


Moses was instructed by God to destroy all sacred stones.
Muhammed did not destroy the Black Stone, a sacred stone of the pagans.

27) Both had to go to a higher place to meet with their God (Moses on a mountain, Mohammad to heaven)


The Ascent of the Prophet is a FALSE story.
It resembles apocryphal stories of the apostles going to heaven and seeing the prophets. Also the story resembles the Persian fable of Arda Viraf.

28 ) Both were promised from their God to help them by sending Angels to help them fight the non-beleivers


Jesus told Satan and the Apostles that a great army of angels would comes to his aide of he needed them.

29) Both Brought entirely new laws than before


Christ gave new laws also.

30) Both died normally


Most people do. Just pathetic!
Moses and Jesus died on a hill.


31) Both were burried in the ground and still is


Again, most people like Moses then.

32) Both were considered as kings from their people and foes


Moses wasn't seen as a king nore did he recognize himself as a king.
He and Jesus, stated in the bible, were the meekest men of their time.

33) Both had human father and human mother


So is everybody else. We're all like Moses then.

34) Both were prophets


Jesus was very much a prophet.

35) Both were mere humans..Not claimed to be God or Son of God


We compare Jesus the man with Moses.

36) Both didn't die for the sins of the world
37) Both didn't visit Hell for 3 days


Get a life.

38 ) Both ordered their people to immigrate to another place


Where did Moses tell his people to migrate to a different place?

39) Both didn't show any miracles untill they started preaching..Jesus was even born miraculously..


Really get a life.


Scopion's and my lists are better than yours. :P
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;

in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

-Hebrews 1:1-2

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Postby Believer » Sat May 15, 2004 09:43 pm

Peace MuhammedAli,


All prophets are brothers, but Jesus was not a prophet according to your doctrine, he was son of god, secondly Muhammed is also brother of Moses, Jesus, and all the prophets, the Quran states that all the prophets are brothers.


A prophet is one that speaks the Word of God.
Everyword Jesus spoke was the direct Word of God.
As is stated on Deut 18, God puts the words in the Prophet's mouth.
Every word Jesus spoke was the Word of God placed in His mouth.
Friend, Jesus is the ultimate prophet.


Very cunning missionary! Jesus was not in the midst of slaughter, he escaped to Egypt according to your NT, he lived in Egypt till he was older and then came back, while Moses didnt run off anywhere, he escaped from the his house to the house of Fir-aun. YOu lied! a common charateristic of a missionary.


Actually Jesus was in the midst of the slaughtering, and so he did escape to the safety of Egypt. The Angel warned Joseph and Mary as it began.
Moses was in the midst of a slaughtering and escaped to the safety of the Pharoah's palace.
I did not lie.
So Muhammed was not a baby in the midst of a slaughtering of innocents.


So is my juggling of twelve significant according to the number 12. Proves nothing, neither Jesus having 12 deciples, and moses having 12 tribes, and me juggling 12 fruites, all proves nothing, only proves the shalow, desperate, cheap, attempts to attribute anything to Jesus. Before you come to debate the first criteria has to be objectiveness, second honesty, third confession of wrong and right soon when it is pointed, fourth a what ever you write has to be the conviction of heart most of what you write in responses to us regarding 18:18 do you honestly beleive that jesus is like Moses, just ask your self, you can lie to me but not to your self.


Look at yours and Knite's list of similarities with Muhammed.
You havedescribed the chaep stuff in your lists.
What I list with Jesus and Moses have many unique special similarities.

The 12 Apostles represent the 12 tribes if Israel, that is why Jesus chose 12 of them.


Muhammed went to Isra-wal Miraaj, thats a journey from Mekah to Jeruslem, where he became the leader of all the prophets and then went to miraaj where he met Allah face to face. not that you beleive in it, its our beleife.


Correct, I don't beloieve in the Ascent where Muhammed saw Allah and the prophets.
This story is very similiar ti apocryphal stores where the apostles went to heaven and saw God and the prophets.
Alsi resembles a Persian story where the Magian priest Arda Viraf goes up to heave and sees the heavens and hells and sees God as a formless being of light.


Bible doesnt mention the sky sports, or sky digi box, or Muhammed Ali was a great boxer that doesnt mean they don't exist, and that dont mean Muhammed Ali was not a great boxer, if bible doesnt mention that Gandhi an budha where not the meekest does that mean they where not, does everything have to be in the bible to exist! Out of fairyland into the real world please.


Whatever man.
I just said that the Bible states that Moses was the meekest man in his time, and same with Jesus.
I happen to believe in the Bible, no surprise.


It doesnt matter If Muhammed was Like Moses or not, weather we can prove the prophethood of MUhammed with bible or not is totally irrelevent.


OKay, just admit it. Jesus is the Prophet like Moses.


I absolutly beleive that Jesus is like Moses, in much more better ways then Muhammed, and If I lie regarding my heart felt conviction then i pray that god curses my life, and sends me to the deepest hell, and if i tell the truth then i go to heaven have salvbation.


[color=red[In the name of living God!
I swear this!
[/color]


look if you dont want to beleive in something people will always find fault in it, oh muahmmed had shorter beard then Moses therefore he was not like MOses, its in humans nature to defend whats precious to them, with wat ever means, even a totaly absurd ludicurious reason to say i dont beleive in it because ot this. what KniteOFIslam stated where the fundamental reasons why Jesu was not like Moses, But i disagree with him i say Jesus was like MOses in the same way has Muhamed is, because the Quran says Jesus was a prophet not son of God, not part of trinity, didnt die on cross, didnt die for the sin of mankind, most of his arguments are against christian attributed doctrines to Jesus, then Obections to Jesus being like Moses. but against your beleife they are devastating because they are fundamental to your doctrine and not to Moses's Torah. Islamicly speaking Jesus is like Moses, but christianly speaking he is not.


People will always find fault in Islam, yet you stuill believe in Isalm.
We compare the man Jesus with the man Moses.
How Jesus and Moses were not alike is irrelevant.
What is important is what they have in common.

What I believe about Jesus was spoken of by the Prophets.
May God rest them, and they spoke of the Messiah sitting at the right hand of the Almighty and Lord and would be our Lord and rule us forever. They said the Almighty would give Messiah and everlasting kingdom and rule mankind for eternity.
They said the Messiah was the Son of Man, as Jesus called Himself.
They said the Messiah was the Lord, the King who is God Himself.
I believe what is consistent throughout scripture, it is not possible for this all to be a corruption.
Isaiah told us that it was the Will of God that the servant would suffer for our sins and be a guilt offering, die with the wicked, and ressurect.
I believe these things that are real.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;

in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

-Hebrews 1:1-2

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Postby Faith » Sun May 16, 2004 03:37 pm

Peace in Christ Jesus

Nice & Amazing thread but I just wanted to remind you of something. If you have to actually prove who the prophet is it is important to go through the whole account. Why I say so because YHWH never stopped with “among their brethren, like unto thee, he continued with two wonderful conjunctions “And” followed by “But”.
So following verses count too. Whoever the Prophet is, should fit the entire account. Not only “Just the like unto Moses” and “brethren among the Jews”. If we do not continue as YHWH did, our Muslim Friends will continue to refute their deception.

18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Along with among your brethren and like unto thee……YHWH says that he himself will put his words in his mouth and he shall speak all that YHWH commanded him. He did not say I will send a messenger Gabriel to read it out to him. Jesus Christ fits perfectly in description. For Mohammad words came thru’ a disguised Gabriel. And Jesus never required an external aid for he claimed that YHWH the Father spoke directly to him.

18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

Everything that Jesus prophecised came to pass and is taking place to this very day. Mohammad never prophecised. YHWH says “The Prophet” who will speak in the name of other Gods shall die.

Mohammad not only spoke in the name of a different diety Allah, he didn’t know how to recognize the difference between Satan & Gods word. There fore he conviniently ascribed Al-Lat, Al-Uzza and Al-Manat to the pavillion of intersession unto Allah. To cover that he told another lie. and yet another (partners unto Allah)

Jesus Lives Forever. Mohammad is long Gone.

“Glory to YHWH in the Highest and Peace to his People on Earth.”

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Postby webmaster » Mon May 17, 2004 11:46 pm

17.
|0559| And said
|3068| Yahweh
|0000| to me,
|3190| They have done well
|0000| {in} what
|1696| they have said.
18.
|5030| A Prophet
|6965| I will raise up
|0000| for them
|5973| from among
|0251| their brothers
|0000| like you.
|7760| And I will put
|1697| my words
|6310| in his mouth.
|4696| And he will speak
|0000| to them
|3605| all
|0000| that
|6680| I will order him
19.
|1961| And it will be
|0376| a man,
|0834| whoever
|3808| not
|8085| will listen
|0413| to
|1697| My words
|0834| which
|4696| he will speak
|8034| in My name,
|0595| I
|1875| will require {it}
|0000| of him.

Jesus Christ said "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he(Moses) wrote of me(Jesus).
But if ye believe not his(Moses) writings, how shall ye believe my(Jesus) words
"?


Jesus Christ said "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day
".
|0595| I
|1875| will require {it}
|0000| of him.

20.
|0000| But
|5030| the prophet
|0000| who
|2102| presumes
|1696| to speak
|1697| a word
|8034| in My name,
|0834| which
|3808| not
|6680| I have ordered
|1696| to speak,
|0000| and who
|1696| speaks
|7034| in the name of
|0430| gods(Allah)
|0312| other,
|4191| even will die
|5030| prophet
|0000| that!
21.
|1961| And if
|0559| you say
|3824| in your heart,
|0000| How
|3045| will we know
|1697| the word
|0834| which
|3808| not
|1696| has spoken
|3068| Yahweh?
22.
|0834| Wher
|1696| speaks
|5030| a prophet
|7034| in the name of
|3068| Yahweh,

|3808| if not
|0961| does happen
|1697| the thing
|3808| and not
|0835| occur,
|0000| this {is}
|1697| the thing
|0834| which
|3808| not
|1696| has spoken
|3068| Yahweh.
|2087| Proudly
|1696| has spoken
|5030| the prophet.
|3808| not
|1481| You must be afraid
|0000| of him.


He that is of God heareth God's words:
ye therefore hear them not,
because ye are not of God.

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Postby KniteOfIslam » Thu May 20, 2004 01:23 am

I asked My friend Believer to keep his word and declare what he promised to..
Now I think he finally did..

Let's see his confission:
First I'd like to draw everybody's attention to that The main subject Here:
"Mohammad or Jesus, who is more like Moses"
to fulfill Deueronomy 18 : 18 prephecy


30) Both died normally

Most people do. Just pathetic!
Moses and Jesus died on a hill.


"most people" but not Jesus,
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"
Yeah....Just Pathetic!!


02) both were super strong..(look next point)
03) both used their personal strength against unbeleivers..moses killed a man violently in defense of a man of his own people..mohammad wrestled the strongest man in the area and knocked him off three times

Joshua was like this moreso than Moses.


"Joshua was" But not Jesus,
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"
Thank you my friend Believer for making it clearer
By the way: If u like to say that Jesus is not like Moses and Joshua is, then we can start another thread on that..


05) both married
06) both had children

So are most people on earth. This is very pathetic.


"most people" but not Jesus,
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"


14) both were reached by their enemies and God saved them by a miracle
Same happened with most of the prophets and kings.


"most prophets" but not Jesus,
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"


20) both fought there enemies by the sword

Joshua foght with the sword much much more than Moses.
Muhammed and Joshua have more in common.


"Joshua" But not Jesus,
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"


21) Both agreed on the saying "eye for eye, tooth for tooth"But Jesus said : "But say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Mat 5:39 )

It was justifiable in 1200 BC, and Jesus said that is not the way to be.
Muhammed regressed from God's Word.


So Jesus said it's not the way, but it was justifiable with Moses and Also justifiable with Mohammad, thanx..that's clear I think
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"


22) Both Had promise from Allah to drive out their enemies before them (Moses in Exo 23:28 ) (Mohammad in El-Fat'h "Vistory" chapter 48 )

Joshua recieved many more of these promises.
Again, Muhammed and Joshua have more in common.


"Joshua" But not Jesus,
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"


31) Both were burried in the ground and still is

Again, most people like Moses then.


again "most people"
Again but not Jesus,
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"


33) Both had human father and human mother

So is everybody else. We're all like Moses then.


"Everybodyelse" but not Jesus
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"


09) both had direct meeting with God during their lives

So did all of the prophets.


"All prophets" but not Jesus
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"


Sorry my friend, My points till now is more than your own points..not only half as you asked..

Need more??

08 ) both recieved the revalation on a mountain (Moses in Saini, Mohammad in Hera' cave on the mountain)

Moses saw God Himself while Muhammed just saw a angel.
This is very different.


Sorry, Mohammad met God Directly in heavens during the ascending "Me'raj"

07) both was orderd to start working to end the slavery of human to another human (physical slavery not spiritual)

Slavery is slavery.


Yeah right..
So u mean it was Physical slavery with Moses and Mohammad, but Spiritual slavery with Jesus
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"
Thanks for making things more clearer


04) both actually worked as a shephard (Not Spiritual Shephard)

A shepard is a shepard.


Another "yeah right"
So u mean it was Actual Sheeps with Moses and Mohammad, but Spiritual Sheeps with Jesus
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"
Another "Thanks for making things more clearer"


25) Both their people lived as strangers out of their homeland for long time (Moses's People in Egypt (Exo 23:9 ), and Mohammad's People in Medina and Ethiopia)

Moses's people lived in Egypt for centuries, but Muhammed's followers only lived in these lands for a few years. Big difference.


I don't compare periods"
They were both strangers for long time "that's the similarity"

10) both never claim to be God or Son of God

Very pathetic.


No body cailmed Moses or Mohammad was God or Son of God
What??..do u think Jesus was mere human like them??..
come oooooon..say it..u would be a great muslim..I would be very happy 4 u..believe me..

===========================================================================================================


Thank you Believer for the confission
In another world I would thought u r a muslim..good work friend


35) Both were mere humans..Not claimed to be God or Son of God

We compare Jesus the man with Moses.


Poor argument
Sorry my friend, we compare Jesus with Moses whatever they were


01) Both have been raised in other house than their parents'

So do alot of people. Jesus's real father was God Hismelf, so Mary and Joseph were hid adopted parents.


Sorry, Marry is his real mother (The Mother of God you say) not his adopted mother

17) Both took the red sea road while fleeing from their enemies with their religion

Moses split the sea. He physically controlled water like Christ.


And Mohammad physically controlled water "made it flow like a spring from between his fingers"

13) both were tracked by their enemies while fleeing

No one came after Moses when he fled.


What?..Pharoah and his men didn't follow him until he split the sea and fled??..
Don't u BELIEVE in ur Old Testament lad?


19) both informed people that God had created earth and heavens in 6 days

Another stupid thing to list.


You call a thing in ur Holy Book stupid..shame on u..
Old Book said it..Holy Quran said it too..


15) both were ordered to tell their people to slaught a sheep in the feast

When Jews were hungry for meat, they generally slaughtered a goat or sheep.


Read Old Testament my friend..Exo chapter 12 starting verse 1

16) both took the harder way of fleeing not the shorter way

That is a silly thing to list.


Poor argument
Silly??..but it was the same way they chose to escape..similarity even in the thinking way..


26) Both were ordered to break down the non-beleivers' images (Exo 23:25)

Moses was instructed by God to destroy all sacred stones.
Muhammed did not destroy the Black Stone, a sacred stone of the pagans.


Sorry my friend no one worships the black stone..this is another misunderstading
didn't u see a son keeping his dead father's property and keeps looking at it every once in a while with tears in his eyes??..does him worship this property??
ofcourse not.. but it is dear to him.. as it reminds him of the great man who raised him..
We hold it high as it is the stone abraham (Pbuh) used when he started building "Ka'ba" and remained intact since then


28 ) Both were promised from their God to help them by sending Angels to help them fight the non-beleivers

Jesus told Satan and the Apostles that a great army of angels would comes to his aide of he needed them.


"Jesus Told"...But Moses and Mohammad was told by God

29) Both Brought entirely new laws than before

Christ gave new laws also.


Sorry my friend..Jesus said it himself...
"THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS: I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED."(Mathew 5:17-18).


32) Both were considered as kings from their people and foes

Moses wasn't seen as a king nore did he recognize himself as a king.
He and Jesus, stated in the bible, were the meekest men of their time.


I mean by king: the man who has the power and authoroty over his people
and Moses did..It is immaterial whether the person wears a crown or not, or whether he was ever addressed as king or monarch: if the man has the prerogative of inflicting capital punishment (Like the power of life and death)
Do you remember the Israelite who was found picking up firewood on Sabbath Day, and Moses had him stoned to death? (Numbers- 15:13).


36) Both didn't die for the sins of the world
37) Both didn't visit Hell for 3 days

Get a life.


Thanks my friend I am getting one now and I'll have another one in the life after in Paradise "Insha'alla" (God willings)
But still Both Moses and Mohammad weren't scapegoats for human sins but Jesus was


38 ) Both ordered their people to immigrate to another place

Where did Moses tell his people to migrate to a different place?


For one more time read your Old Testament...Chapter 3 starting verse 7

39) Both didn't show any miracles untill they started preaching..Jesus was even born miraculously..

Really get a life.


And here is another life!..haha..I can win this game easily..
Still the point is right..


Scopion's and my lists are better than yours. :P


Sorry my friend mine is still safe and sound..and still more similarities than urs or scorpion's
"Say: O People of the scripture. Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords besides Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they (The Muslims) who have surrendered (unto Him)"

(The Noble Quran 3:64)

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Postby MuhammedAli » Thu May 20, 2004 02:37 am

sometimes confession is good for soul, and the missionary was set-up, Allah says they plan and Allah too plans the best of planners is Allah, the missionary choped off his own head :lol: , now dont think i wasnt involved in it, well done bro, you have done it, good job, i wanted to respond, but i have been busy with shias, but i set him up you knocked him out. good wrk

Ali

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Postby Omega » Thu May 20, 2004 02:40 am

MuhammedAli wrote:sometimes confession is good for soul, and the missionary was set-up, Allah says they plan and Allah too plans the best of planners is Allah, the missionary choped off his own head :lol: , now dont think i wasnt involved in it, well done bro, you have done it, good job, i wanted to respond, but i have been busy with shias, but i set him up you knocked him out. good wrk

Ali


You, yourself had said it, by your words shall you be justified and by your words you shall be condemned!

Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:10 - For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

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Postby KniteOfIslam » Thu May 20, 2004 01:40 pm

Peace to all

Thanx for the support brother MuhammadAli.. :wink:

By the way...it's a very very nice Avatar..where did u get it?

May Allah be our way and goal
"Say: O People of the scripture. Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords besides Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they (The Muslims) who have surrendered (unto Him)"

(The Noble Quran 3:64)

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Postby Believer » Thu May 20, 2004 09:41 pm

Peace KnifeOfIslam,

Well friend, I was waiting for your response.
Let us see now....


Let's see his confission:
First I'd like to draw everybody's attention to that The main subject Here:
"Mohammad or Jesus, who is more like Moses"
to fulfill Deueronomy 18 : 18 prephecy


Yes, who is more LIKE Moses.
Unlikenesses between Jesus and other people does not count.
Obvious things Moses has in common with all other human beings does not count. You must resort to such poor things.


"most people" but not Jesus,
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"
Yeah....Just Pathetic!!


Most people are like Moses then.
Muhammed is no closer to Moses than you or I.


"Joshua was" But not Jesus,
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"
Thank you my friend Believer for making it clearer
By the way: If u like to say that Jesus is not like Moses and Joshua is, then we can start another thread on that


Yes, Jesus was not a killer.
Yet it was stated that Jesus and Moses were the meekest of all men in their time.
Muhammed is no closer to Moses than soldiers that kill to defend.


"most people" but not Jesus,
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"


Again, this is not an exclusive similarity, which Moses and Jesus have many of.
This and much of what you posted can apply to most human beings.
We all could be Prophets!
Muhammed is no closer to Moses than you or I.


"most prophets" but not Jesus,
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"


No, muhammed is no more like Moses than the prophets and saints.
Again, NO exclusive similarities have I seen between Moses and Muhammed.


"Joshua" But not Jesus,
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"


So Jesus wasn't a killer.
I wouldn't want the Prophet to be a killer.
Muhammed is no closer to Moses than anyone that kills.


So Jesus said it's not the way, but it was justifiable with Moses and Also justifiable with Mohammad, thanx..that's clear I think
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"


Moses and Jesus gave the teachings of God and did not regress from them.
Muhammed regressed from the teachings of God given by previous prophets. That proves he was NOT a prophet of God.


"Joshua" But not Jesus,
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"



Again, Muhammed and Joshua have more in common that Muhammed and Moses.


again "most people"
Again but not Jesus,
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"


Then neither you or I are more or less similar to Moses than Muhammed.
Pitiful you low of a lever you drop to.


"Everybodyelse" but not Jesus
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"


My parents are humans too, guess I am also the Prophet, I'm as close to Moses and Muhammed!!!
See, NOTHING [b]UNIQUE
between Moses and Muhammed, much unlike Jesus and Moses.


[quopte]"All prophets" but not Jesus
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"
[/quote]

The Prophet is more like Moses than the other prophets.


[quoye]Sorry my friend, My points till now is more than your own points..not only half as you asked.. [/quote]

Sickening, profound lack or unique similarities between Muhammed and Moses.
Most of us could constitute as the Prophet with your low standards.


Sorry, Mohammad met God Directly in heavens during the ascending "Me'raj"


So did Peter, Paul, James, Zechariah, Enoch, Esdras, Arda Viraf....and all those other people from APOCRYPHAL stories.

Ah! But Jesus sits at the Right Hand of the Almighty!


Yeah right..
So u mean it was Physical slavery with Moses and Mohammad, but Spiritual slavery with Jesus
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"
Thanks for making things more clearer


Do you know how many people have freed slaves? Many indeed.
Spartacus freed his people from slavery and fought with the sword to defend them and stuff.
Now Spartacus can be the Prophet too??

Jesus and Moses tooks their people out of a state of inescapable torment and brought them to safety by making a great sacrifice, giving up power and kinghood and walk among the slaves and overcoming kings with power and miracles. Pharoah feared Moses because of his power and miracles, as Herod feared Christ because of his power and miracles.


Another "yeah right"
So u mean it was Actual Sheeps with Moses and Mohammad, but Spiritual Sheeps with Jesus
So: "Mohammad is More like Moses, Jesus is More unlike Moses"
Another "Thanks for making things more clearer"


Zoroaster was a shepard and supposedly recieved the law of Zartusht from God in a mountain cave.
Guess he could be the Prophet too.


I don't compare periods"
They were both strangers for long time "that's the similarity"


WOW! Great similarity! You get an A+!! :roll:


No body cailmed Moses or Mohammad was God or Son of God
What??..do u think Jesus was mere human like them??..
come oooooon..say it..u would be a great muslim..I would be very happy 4 u..believe me..


Well, Jesus had two natures: God and Man, we compare the man Jesus to the man Moses.


Thank you Believer for the confission
In another world I would thought u r a muslim..good work friend


With the very vague similarities you have shown me between Prophet Moses and Muhammed, millions of people could be the Prophet!
Now that's kind of silly man! Well, you're an excellent comedian. :lol:



Poor argument
Sorry my friend, we compare Jesus with Moses whatever they were


Hey what! I have a poor argument?
I'm telling you that Jesus and Moses as men are compared, and thay have many unique similarities.


Sorry, Marry is his real mother (The Mother of God you say) not his adopted mother


Well, Jesus didn't have her DNA. He was not created by two sex cells.
He is not from this world.


And Mohammad physically controlled water "made it flow like a spring from between his fingers"


Err, that's what baby Jesus did under the date-palm.


What?..Pharoah and his men didn't follow him until he split the sea and fled??..
Don't u BELIEVE in ur Old Testament lad?


That wasn't fleeing. Moses was given full permission to leave and he did so legally. He didn't sneak out and flee.


You call a thing in ur Holy Book stupid..shame on u..
Old Book said it..Holy Quran said it too..


Oh, and Jesus didn't say that.
Man! Amazing similarity! How can Jesus possible be like Moses more than Muhamme now!!! You should recieve an award or something, just pure genius!


Read Old Testament my friend..Exo chapter 12 starting verse 1


Sure, and many people slaughter livestock when they're hungry.
God told Moses to slaughter the lamb and smear its blood over the doors of the Jews.
Did Muhammed do this? Well then NO similarity here.


Sorry my friend no one worships the black stone..this is another misunderstading
didn't u see a son keeping his dead father's property and keeps looking at it every once in a while with tears in his eyes??..does him worship this property??
ofcourse not.. but it is dear to him.. as it reminds him of the great man who raised him..
We hold it high as it is the stone abraham (Pbuh) used when he started building "Ka'ba" and remained intact since then


Well, I don't beleuve Abraham left his great family and beloved son Isaac and venture deep in the Arabian peninsula (even though Ishamel never left the Sinai), and constructed the Kaabah. That is insane.

Deuteronomy 16:22
and do not erect a sacred stone, for these the LORD your God hates.
(Whole Chapter: Deuteronomy 16 In context: Deuteronomy 16:21-23)


God hates sacred stones and wanyt them destroyed.


"Jesus Told"...But Moses and Mohammad was told by God


And say Jesus is God.


Sorry my friend..Jesus said it himself...
"THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS: I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED."(Mathew 5:17-1.


Yes, He FULFILLED the Law, the Psalms, and the Writings.
Jesus have us simple yet very effective Laws in the Gospels.


mean by king: the man who has the power and authoroty over his people
and Moses did..It is immaterial whether the person wears a crown or not, or whether he was ever addressed as king or monarch: if the man has the prerogative of inflicting capital punishment (Like the power of life and death)
Do you remember the Israelite who was found picking up firewood on Sabbath Day, and Moses had him stoned to death? (Numbers- 15:13).


God is the King, and Moses was only His servant.


Thanks my friend I am getting one now and I'll have another one in the life after in Paradise "Insha'alla" (God willings)
But still Both Moses and Mohammad weren't scapegoats for human sins but Jesus was


Yes, your wonderful Paradise...only it's a copy of the Persian Paradise.


And here is another life!..haha..I can win this game easily..
Still the point is right..


Elijah also worked many miracles and was saved by some, same with many Prophets.

Sorry my friend mine is still safe and sound..and still more similarities than urs or scorpion's


Never in my life have I seen such a pathetic attempt to justify someone.
Muhammed is no closer to Moses than millions of other people.
Jesus and Moses have so many unique exclusive things in common.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;

in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

-Hebrews 1:1-2

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Postby KniteOfIslam » Fri May 21, 2004 02:36 pm

Dear friend Believer

Sorry my friend, totally wrong..
No one was claimed to be this Prophet before and proved right
and maybe someone have one or two similarity(ies) with Moses but not all, does that prove that he is MORE LIKE MOSES?..ofcourse not

If u think Jesus is not the one in the prophecy and another one is..bring it forth and I'll be more than glad to discuss it..
Jesus is a Jew..Moses is a Jew (u said)..many people also are jews..does that make it not a similarity??..no it is a similarity..but it's not enough
so if any one said I'm a jew too..we say right..but are u more like Moses than Jesus????...ofcourse not
and Jesus have some similarities with Moses..ofcourse..but is he more like Moses than Mohammad??...ofcourse not..
When I replied to Scorpion and u I didn't eleminate the similarities between Jesus and Moses but I proved that most of the similarities u proved can be applied to Mohammad too but he has many more.. 8)

All we have now is Jesus or Mohammad so any similarity is counted
And still 40 similarites more than Jesus..and much much more than anybody else... 8)

Sorry my friend still u have very poor argument..

May Allah be our way and goal
"Say: O People of the scripture. Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords besides Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they (The Muslims) who have surrendered (unto Him)"

(The Noble Quran 3:64)

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Postby Believer » Fri May 21, 2004 08:52 pm

Peace KniteOfIslam,


Sorry my friend, totally wrong..
No one was claimed to be this Prophet before and proved right
and maybe someone have one or two similarity(ies) with Moses but not all, does that prove that he is MORE LIKE MOSES?..ofcourse not



Again, Muhammed was more like the judges, warrior-prophets like Joshua.
What very superficial inclusive things they and Moses have in common, so is the same with millions of other people.
Now Jesus and Moses had many very unique more exlusive things in common.


If u think Jesus is not the one in the prophecy and another one is..bring it forth and I'll be more than glad to discuss it..
Jesus is a Jew..Moses is a Jew (u said)..many people also are jews..does that make it not a similarity??..no it is a similarity..but it's not enough
so if any one said I'm a jew too..we say right..but are u more like Moses than Jesus????...ofcourse not
and Jesus have some similarities with Moses..ofcourse..but is he more like Moses than Mohammad??...ofcourse not..
When I replied to Scorpion and u I didn't eleminate the similarities between Jesus and Moses but I proved that most of the similarities u proved can be applied to Mohammad too but he has many more..


You don't get it man!
The Prophet is a BROTHER of Moses and the Israelites of his time.
Jesus is a BROTHER of Moses and his Israelites.
Him, a Jew of the 1st century AD, was indeed a brother of Moses and the Israelites of his time. This is a very significant requirement of the Prophet stated in Deut 18.


All we have now is Jesus or Mohammad so any similarity is counted
And still 40 similarites more than Jesus..and much much more than anybody else...

Sorry my friend still u have very poor argument..


The majority of those were totally debunked.
If you desire to cling to falsehood and lies, then go ahead. I could not expect anything less from an infidel.


Now NO ONE has come near to dubunking those eveyr unique similarities between Jesus and Moses. This one I will reiterate and I would expect you to attempt to debunk it.

Jesus and Moses tooks their people out of a state of inescapable torment and brought them to safety by making a great sacrifice, giving up power and kinghood and walk among the slaves and overcoming kings with power and miracles. Pharoah feared Moses because of his power and miracles, as Herod feared Christ because of his power and miracles.


Talk about a poor argument, you have not even attempted to give rebuttals to what I said in this previous post. Great, give it up man! Jesus is the winner!!!
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;

in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

-Hebrews 1:1-2

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Postby KniteOfIslam » Fri May 28, 2004 12:29 pm

My Friend Believer

Now NO ONE has come near to dubunking those eveyr unique similarities between Jesus and Moses. This one I will reiterate and I would expect you to attempt to debunk it.

Jesus and Moses tooks their people out of a state of inescapable torment and brought them to safety by making a great sacrifice, giving up power and kinghood and walk among the slaves and overcoming kings with power and miracles. Pharoah feared Moses because of his power and miracles, as Herod feared Christ because of his power and miracles.


I can see that ur list has been cut down to few points only
I respect ur honesty


Again, Muhammed was more like the judges, warrior-prophets like Joshua.
What very superficial inclusive things they and Moses have in common, so is the same with millions of other people.
Now Jesus and Moses had many very unique more exlusive things in common.


(Exclusive&Inexclusive)..I think u r trying to bend the truth..as u r changing ur own rules to gain some ground..
Actualy this wasn't ur belief at first..otherwise u wouldn't mention a points like the following:(as the following can be applied to many people too)


Moses and Jesus were Jewish.
Both fasted for forty days.
They both died on a hill.
Moses was a learned man and Jesus knew the Scripture well.
Moses and Jesus both had to flee for their lives (Jesus was almost stoned)
Both Jesus and Moses were disliked by the established authorities.
They both taught others how to pray
They lived a life of hardship
Both Moses and Jesus hid in Egypt (as children) during a slaughter of babies.
Moses commanded 12 tribes while Jesus commanded 12 apostles.
Moses and Jesus were both called the meekest of all men at their time
Both had faces that radiated light.


But u didn't mind that at first..now u r trying to bend this rule in ur own way as the firt one proved wrong..

Now u r trying to escape the truth


Jesus and Moses tooks their people out of a state of inescapable torment and brought them to safety by making a great sacrifice, giving up power and kinghood and walk among the slaves and overcoming kings with power and miracles. Pharoah feared Moses because of his power and miracles, as Herod feared Christ because of his power and miracles


=Mohammad took his people out of a state of inescapable torment and brought them to safety by making a great sacrifice, giving up power and kinghood (They offered him Money and Kinghood over all tribes of Mecca Jutst to leave what he is saying)
=Walk among slaves and overcoming kings with power and miracles (Most his followers was from slaves and poor men and Kings of Mecca tribes all was against him, they tortured his followers and hurted him very much till God ordered him to migrate)
=Kings of Mecca's tribes feared his effect over people as he was attracting more people to Islam by teachings and miracles.

And still the 40 similarities overcome ur points

May Allah be our way and goal
Last edited by KniteOfIslam on Sat May 29, 2004 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Say: O People of the scripture. Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords besides Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they (The Muslims) who have surrendered (unto Him)"

(The Noble Quran 3:64)

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Postby Believer » Fri May 28, 2004 11:08 pm

Peace KniteOfIslam,

(Exclusive&Inexclusive)..I think u r trying to bend the truth..as u r changing ur own rules to gain some ground..
Actualy this wasn't ur belief at first..otherwise u wouldn't mention a points like the following:(as the following can be applied to many people too)


With your logic, millions of people coulsd qualify to be the Prophet.
You must look for unique similarities between Muhammed and Moses that others don't have. So far I've not seen any.
Jesus and Moses do have many unique similarities others don't have in common with Moses or Jesus.


But u didn't mind that at first..now u r trying to bend this rule in ur own way as the firt one proved wrong..

Now u r trying to escape the truth


What ever makes you sleep at night.


=Mohammad took his people out of a state of inescapable torment and brought them to safety by making a great sacrifice, giving up power and kinghood (They offered him Money and Kinghood over all tribes of Mecca Jutst to leave what he is saying)
=Walk among slaves and overcoming kings with power and miracles (Most his followers was from slaves and poor men and Kings of Mecca tribes all was against him, they tortured his followers and hared him very much till God ordered him to migrate)
=Kings of Mecca's tribes feared his effect over people as he was attracting more people to Islam by teachings and miracles.

And still the 40 similarities overcome ur points



Same with Buddha. He was a great king but wandered out of his city one day, like Moses, and found his people starving in the gutters so he became on of them. Buddha could be the Prophet!

Moses came with the Old Covenant to Israel, and Jesus came with the New Covenant for all of mankind. Therwe is the fist and last testaments. No room for Muhammed. Jesus got there first, one could say.


Here, I went through muy list picking out the spacial things that only Jesus and Moses have in common, not with ALL OTHER PEOPLE!

Both fasted for forty days.
*They both died on a hill.
Both Moses and Jesus hid in Egypt (as children) during a slaughter of babies.
Moses commanded 12 tribes while Jesus commanded 12 apostles. (shosen to represent the 12 tribes)
Moses and Jesus were both called the meekest of all men at their time
Both had faces that radiated light.
Both Moses and Jesus knew when they would die.


It's a smaller list, but it is purely unique.
No millions of other people or Muhammed can boast this many exclusive similarities between Jesus and Moses!

I'll note that alot of people died on a hill, but it's a better example of similarity than saying Moses and Muhammed "died normally"
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;

in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

-Hebrews 1:1-2

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Postby KniteOfIslam » Sat May 29, 2004 12:13 am

My Friend Believer

Sorry my friend, u missed the point
I didn't say that u didn't mention what u think is exclusive
But I said that u mixed both Exclusive and Inclusive similarities..

Then when u found it will not be to ur side u r trying to bend it to fit ur case..Right?


Can u say that u mentioned only exclusive points in ur first post (Start of page 2) here in this thread?? (or scorpion on first Page)
If yes please prove it..Then I can go on with u..
Otherwise please admit u r changing ur challenge and putting new case on..
Awaiting ur reply


May Allah be our way and goal
"Say: O People of the scripture. Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords besides Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they (The Muslims) who have surrendered (unto Him)"

(The Noble Quran 3:64)

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Postby Believer » Sat May 29, 2004 01:57 am

Peace KniteOfIslam,

Be nice if you'd read my post.


Here, I went through my list picking out the special things that only Jesus and Moses have in common, not with ALL OTHER PEOPLE!

Both fasted for forty days.
*They both died on a hill.
Both Moses and Jesus hid in Egypt (as children) during a slaughter of babies.
Moses commanded 12 tribes while Jesus commanded 12 apostles. (shosen to represent the 12 tribes)
Moses and Jesus were both called the meekest of all men at their time
Both had faces that radiated light.
Both Moses and Jesus knew when they would die.


It's a smaller list, but it is purely unique.
No millions of other people or Muhammed can boast this many exclusive similarities between Jesus and Moses!

I'll note that alot of people died on a hill, but it's a better example of similarity than saying Moses and Muhammed "died normally"

The fact that they both had foreknowledge of their deaths, this is very interesting and unique.
The significance of the 12 tribes Moses commanded and the 12 Apostles that Jeus commanded, how he choose 12 for each tribe!
Jesus was thinking ahead, so wise people can see how truly alike Moses and Jesus are.

There are some good inclusive similarities, but you take advantage of this. All that Moses and Muhammed have in common are quite inclusive. Many people share their experiences.
There are alot of millitary and religious leaders that fight to defend their group, and free slaves, and fight the enemy, and sometimes flee for their lives. We could say Spartacus and Buddha, in many respects, are much like Moses and Muhammed.
We cannot say that Muhammed is like Moses as Jesus is, many inclusive similarities but also having many special unique similarities not shared with other people even Muhammed.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;

in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

-Hebrews 1:1-2

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Postby WarriorofChrist » Sat May 29, 2004 02:50 pm

A prophet like unto Moses cannot be Muhamad muhamad is not a Jew look at this scripture.

Deuteronomy 18:1 The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance. 2 Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.

As this shows the Tribe of Levi which is one of the tribes of Israel shall have no inheritence with Israel, therefore shall they have no inheritence among their BRETHREN.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. (Hosea 4:6 KJV)

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Postby KniteOfIslam » Sun May 30, 2004 01:36 am

As-salamu 'Ala man Ettaba'a Al-Huda
(May Peace Be Upon All Who Follows The True Guidance)

That was Scorpion's challenge after listing his 55 similarities:(See this on Start of page 1 of this Thread)


I hope thats enough to debunk this lubacris claim. Moses was clearly the prophet like Jesus, in LOTS of very UNIQUE ways. I have given 55 very unique similarities between Moses and Jesus, moses in a way was a shadow of Jesus, its just too incredible. What a mighty God we serve.

Anybody who replies to the topic without reading ALL 55 points i have made, will be ignored. Please do not make vain/rubbish replies, please read all the 55 similarities and re-read too if you like, its incredible, Moses was most definately like Jesus, in VERY unique ways.

No vain replies please, if anyway replies without reading these 55 points, they will be ignored.



That was Believer challenge after listing his 23 similarities:(See Second post on page 2 of this Thread)

You find me a list half as long as this of unique similarities between Moses and Muhammed and I would be impressed.
There are major correlations between Moses and Jesus.



I think it's clear that Scorpion and Believer challenged with a list full with similarities without any such thing like (EXCLUSIVE) as he's trying to to tell us now
Also I can't see any evidence what so ever that they put anyone other than Jesus and Mohammad to the test (As It's filled with inclusive points as they claim)

And after I standed to the challenge and proved my point well, that "Mohammad is more like Moses, Jesus is more unlike Moses"
Now Believer tries to escape the challenge with another one with so called EXCLUSIVE similarities

:x Why didn't he apply this to himself at first?? :x

He says to me:

There are some good inclusive similarities, but you take advantage of this.


"Take advantage of this" 8) :D , He means that I successfuly proved my case according to his own rules..Yes..The advantage is mine..
And what does he mean by "Good Inclusive similarities"...does it mean it's good as long as it is in his favour??..
:x that's not fair :x ..

Now what does he say:

Here, I went through my list picking out the special things that only Jesus and Moses have in common, not with ALL OTHER PEOPLE!


He went trought his own list...
He is picking new items according to new rules (EXCLUSIVE)...(7 similarities only out of his old 23 ones)..
Why did he discard the rest (16 similarities)...coz he didn't thought of the (EXCLUSIVE) rule himself at first until he lost the challenge..
Now he wants to compare not only Mohammad and Jesus to Moses
but All mankind is envolved now too...Brand new idea and challenge

And I say to him:

8) :lol: Thnx my friend for declaring MY VICTORY and Advantage :lol: 8)
and please start new thread with ur new challenge..

May Allah Be Our Way And Goal
Last edited by KniteOfIslam on Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Say: O People of the scripture. Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords besides Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they (The Muslims) who have surrendered (unto Him)"

(The Noble Quran 3:64)

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Postby Believer » Sun May 30, 2004 01:46 am

Believer wrote:You find me a list half as long as this of unique similarities between Moses and Muhammed and I would be impressed.
There are major correlations between Moses and Jesus.


You, KniteOfIslam, are a liar or else an idiot that doesn't read. You have won NO victory, becasue you CANNOT give a list of UNIQUE similarities that Muhammed and Moses have in common that others don't share. I fixed my list, okay, made sure it fits this description I made. YOU'RE TURN. Go try, you'll fail. You know it!

Ahhh! But you have NOTHING like I do, I am victorious here! Jesus is the One!
I BUTCHERED your list of Muhammed and Moses similarities.
I butchered it so bad, you could NOT give rebuttal to my excellent post that exposed the silliness and emptyness of your 40.
You have been reduced to pathetically attacking me and Scorpion.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;

in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

-Hebrews 1:1-2

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Postby KniteOfIslam » Fri Jun 11, 2004 09:40 pm

Believer

You, KniteOfIslam, are a liar or else an idiot that doesn't read. You have won NO victory, becasue you CANNOT give a list of UNIQUE similarities that Muhammed and Moses have in common that others don't share. I fixed my list, okay, made sure it fits this description I made. YOU'RE TURN. Go try, you'll fail. You know it!


I never thought it might get this far, I would never call u or anybody else a liar or an idiot just because u/he don't share my beliefs..
The only way I call this situation is disagreement..and I always did..


As a debater I would expect more patience from u..remember WRATH is a big sin..

And I think u don't even practice what u preach:

"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."(Matthew 5:39)

If u didn't adhere to ur beliefs...how do u expect others to BELIEVE your preaching and follow ur guidance..


Peace on u and Take care

May Allah Be Our Way And Goal
"Say: O People of the scripture. Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords besides Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they (The Muslims) who have surrendered (unto Him)"

(The Noble Quran 3:64)

Omega

Postby Omega » Fri Jun 11, 2004 09:42 pm

Forum Rules #4! Believer

Only Satan qualifies as a certified idiot.

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Postby Believer » Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:10 am

Peace KniteOfIslam,

I'm sorry if I got upset, but I would like for you to give me a list of similarities between Muhammed and Moses that are special and unique, something only they have in common. I simplified my list, now I kindly ask you to.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;

in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

-Hebrews 1:1-2

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Re: Deuteronomy 18:18 ... Who Is The Prophet?

Postby zampeada » Sat Jun 19, 2004 07:55 am

Scorpion wrote:
Deuteronomy 18:18 KJV says ...

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him

Scorpion


...among their brethen...

If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham, then they are brothers. And so the children of the one are the BRETHEN of the children of the other. The children of Isaac are the Jews and the children of Ishmael are the Arabs - so they are BRETHEN to one another. Muhammad was an ARAB.

... words in the mouth...

History tells us that Muhammed was forty years of age. He was in a cave some 3 miles from north of the City of Mecca. It was the 27th night of the Muslim month of Ramadaan. In the cave the Archangel Gabriel commands him in his mother tongue: IQRA' which means READ! Muhammad is terrified in his bewilderment replies MA ANA BIQRIIN which means I AM NO LEARNED! The angel commands him a second time with the same result. For the third time the angel continues IQRA' BISMI RABBIKALLAZI KHALAQ. Now muhammed grasps, that what was required of him was to repeat to rehease. And he repeats the words as they were put into his mouth which was the first revelation to Muhammad that can be found in Chapt 96.
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Postby Believer » Sun Jun 20, 2004 03:36 am

Peace zampeada,

If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham, then they are brothers. And so the children of the one are the BRETHEN of the children of the other. The children of Isaac are the Jews and the children of Ishmael are the Arabs - so they are BRETHEN to one another. Muhammad was an ARAB.


Nothing of Abraham is said here, for one thing.
Jesus and Moses are brothers, but Muhammed is a SECOND COUSIN to Moses and the Israelites.

It is very logical to say this and that "brethren" means Jews of a future age. Jesus is a brother to Moses and the Israelites of his time. This is logical because Deut 18:18 is a prophecy for a future event.
How and why is what I say incorrect?


History tells us that Muhammed was forty years of age. He was in a cave some 3 miles from north of the City of Mecca. It was the 27th night of the Muslim month of Ramadaan. In the cave the Archangel Gabriel commands him in his mother tongue: IQRA' which means READ! Muhammad is terrified in his bewilderment replies MA ANA BIQRIIN which means I AM NO LEARNED! The angel commands him a second time with the same result. For the third time the angel continues IQRA' BISMI RABBIKALLAZI KHALAQ. Now muhammed grasps, that what was required of him was to repeat to rehease. And he repeats the words as they were put into his mouth which was the first revelation to Muhammad that can be found in Chapt 96.


Not every word (if any) Muhammed spoke was put in his mouth by God.

God put every word into Jesus's mouth because God was in Him, and Jesus Christ admitted that He says nothing of his own accord, but only speaks what the Father instructs Him.
Every word that Jesus spoke was the direct Word of God, because He was the Word incarnate. This is not so with Muhammed.

What historical proof by non-Muslims shows us that Muhammed was illiterate?
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;

in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

-Hebrews 1:1-2

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Postby zampeada » Sun Jun 20, 2004 04:43 am

Believer wrote:Peace zampeada,

If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham, then they are brothers. And so the children of the one are the BRETHEN of the children of the other. The children of Isaac are the Jews and the children of Ishmael are the Arabs - so they are BRETHEN to one another. Muhammad was an ARAB.


Nothing of Abraham is said here, for one thing.
Jesus and Moses are brothers, but Muhammed is a SECOND COUSIN to Moses and the Israelites.

It is very logical to say this and that "brethren" means Jews of a future age. Jesus is a brother to Moses and the Israelites of his time. This is logical because Deut 18:18 is a prophecy for a future event.
How and why is what I say incorrect?


History tells us that Muhammed was forty years of age. He was in a cave some 3 miles from north of the City of Mecca. It was the 27th night of the Muslim month of Ramadaan. In the cave the Archangel Gabriel commands him in his mother tongue: IQRA' which means READ! Muhammad is terrified in his bewilderment replies MA ANA BIQRIIN which means I AM NO LEARNED! The angel commands him a second time with the same result. For the third time the angel continues IQRA' BISMI RABBIKALLAZI KHALAQ. Now muhammed grasps, that what was required of him was to repeat to rehease. And he repeats the words as they were put into his mouth which was the first revelation to Muhammad that can be found in Chapt 96.


Not every word (if any) Muhammed spoke was put in his mouth by God.

God put every word into Jesus's mouth because God was in Him, and Jesus Christ admitted that He says nothing of his own accord, but only speaks what the Father instructs Him.
Every word that Jesus spoke was the direct Word of God, because He was the Word incarnate. This is not so with Muhammed.

What historical proof by non-Muslims shows us that Muhammed was illiterate?


I stress it here again...

...from among their brethen...

The prophecy distinctly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses, must arise NOT from the 'children of Israel' or from 'among themselves', but from among their brethen. MUHAMMAD THEREFORE WAS FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHEN!

PROPHET LIKE MOSES?

Three Unlikes
1. Jesus in not like Moses, because according to you Jesus is a God. Is Moses God?

2. Jesus died for the sins of the world, did Moses die for the sins of the word?

3. Jesus went to hell for 3 days, did Moses go there?

THEREFORE JESUS IN NOT LIKE MOSES.

How about Muhammad?

Father and Mother
Moses and Muhammad had a father and mother. But Jesus had only a mother and no human father.

Miraculous Birth
Moses and Muhammad were born in the normal natural course, but Jesus was created by a special miracle.

Marriage Ties
Moses and Muhammad married and begat children, but Jesus remained a bachelor all his life.

THEREFORE JESUS IS NOT LIKE MOSES, BUT MUHAMMAD IS LIKE MOSES.

Jesus rejected by his people
Moses and Muhammad were accepted as prophets by their people in their very lifetime although a little trouble Jesus was never accepted. According to the Bible - "He (Jesus) came unto his own, but his own received him not (John 1: 1)."

Other-Wordly Kingdom
Moses and Muhammad were prophets as well as head of their people (Or KIng). The Christian Gospel clearly confirms this: when Jesus was dragged before Roman Governor, Pontious Pilate, charged for sedition, Jesus made a convincing point in his defence to refute the false charge: "MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD': IF MY KINGDOM WERE OF THIS WORLD, THEN WOULD MY SERVANTS FIGHT, THAT I SHOULD NOT BE DELIVERED TO THE JEWS; BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE (John 18: 36)"

No New Laws
Moses and Muhammad brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus took pains to assure his people that he had not come with a new religion, no new laws and no new regulations: 'THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS: I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULLFILLED (Mattew 5: 17 - 18)

How The Departed?
Both Moses and Muhammad died natural death, but according to Christianity Jesus was violently killed on the cross.

Heavenly Abode
Moses and Muhammad both lie buried in earth, but according to Christianity Jesus rests in heaaven.

THEREFORE JESUS IS NOT LIKE MOSES BUT MUHAMMAD IS LIKE MOSES.

... words in the mouth...
It may be noted that there were no Arabic Bibles in existence in the 6th Century of the Christian Era when Muhammad live and preached. Besides, Muhammad was absolutely unlettered an unlearned. No human had ever taught him a word. His teacher was Allah. Kuran 53: 3 -5:

HE DOES NOT SPEAK(AUGHT), OF (HIS OWN) DESIRE. IT IS NO LESS THAN INSPIRATION SENT DOWN TO HIM: HE WAS TAUGHT BY ONE MIGHTY IN POWER.

By a queer coincidence groups Moses and Muhammad together thus adding further weight to the argument that JESUS is not like MOses but Muhammad like MOses: Deut 18:18 "Like Unto Thee" - Like MOSES!
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Postby Bushmaster » Sun Jun 20, 2004 06:46 am

By a queer coincidence groups Moses and Muhammad together thus adding further weight to the argument that JESUS is not like MOses but Muhammad like MOses: Deut 18:18 "Like Unto Thee" - Like MOSES!


Pffff... Still this nonsense about Muhammad being in the corrupt Bible... Jesus said "HE IS THE ONE that MOSES WROTE ABOUT" Also book of ACTS says that Jesus is that prophet like unto moses; I agree that by many of the comparisons made by Moslem missionaries, my grandad could be like unto moses! No clearly it is looking for somnething more particular, than moslem comparisons!


Act 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Act 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Act 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.


CASE CLOSED! FINI! CAPISH?
"Maiorem hac dilectionem nemo habet ut animam suam quis ponat pro amicis suis " Evangelium secundum Iohannem 15:13

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Postby Believer » Sun Jun 20, 2004 07:37 pm

Peace zampeada,

...from among their brethen...

The prophecy distinctly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses, must arise NOT from the 'children of Israel' or from 'among themselves', but from among their brethen. MUHAMMAD THEREFORE WAS FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHEN!


We are all sons and daughters of Adam, se we all are brothers.
But neither Adam nor ABraham is mentioned here.
The Edomites are the brother nation of Israel, but Ishmaelites are COUSINS.

God raised a Jewish prophet foe thr Jews, not an Arab, and He was from a future generation of Jews, a brother of Moses and his Israelites of his time. This is logical becasue it's a prophecy for a future event.

Would you deny that Jesus and Moses are brothers?



Three Unlikes
1. Jesus in not like Moses, because according to you Jesus is a God. Is Moses God?

2. Jesus died for the sins of the world, did Moses die for the sins of the word?

3. Jesus went to hell for 3 days, did Moses go there?

THEREFORE JESUS IN NOT LIKE MOSES.


You're approach is wrong, let me show you why...


Father and Mother
Moses and Muhammad had a father and mother. But Jesus had only a mother and no human father.

Miraculous Birth
Moses and Muhammad were born in the normal natural course, but Jesus was created by a special miracle.

Marriage Ties
Moses and Muhammad married and begat children, but Jesus remained a bachelor all his life.

THEREFORE JESUS IS NOT LIKE MOSES, BUT MUHAMMAD IS LIKE MOSES.


All human biengs have a mother and father.
All human beings have normal births.
Most people get marroied and have chidlren, suppose we all could be the prophet.


Jesus rejected by his people
Moses and Muhammad were accepted as prophets by their people in their very lifetime although a little trouble Jesus was never accepted. According to the Bible - "He (Jesus) came unto his own, but his own received him not (John 1: 1)."


Spme times Moses's people rejected him.


Other-Wordly Kingdom
Moses and Muhammad were prophets as well as head of their people (Or KIng). The Christian Gospel clearly confirms this: when Jesus was dragged before Roman Governor, Pontious Pilate, charged for sedition, Jesus made a convincing point in his defence to refute the false charge: "MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD': IF MY KINGDOM WERE OF THIS WORLD, THEN WOULD MY SERVANTS FIGHT, THAT I SHOULD NOT BE DELIVERED TO THE JEWS; BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE (John 18: 36)"


No one but Jesus has a divine kingdom, so we all are like Moses.


No New Laws
Moses and Muhammad brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus took pains to assure his people that he had not come with a new religion, no new laws and no new regulations: 'THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS: I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULLFILLED (Mattew 5: 17 - 1


He fulfilled the Law giving us new laws. See, nowhere in Judaism are thee laws about loving our enemies or that divorce is like adultery.


How The Departed?
Both Moses and Muhammad died natural death, but according to Christianity Jesus was violently killed on the cross.


Most pepple died natural deaths, but Jesus and Moses both died on a hill. See, that's more narrowed down.


Heavenly Abode
Moses and Muhammad both lie buried in earth, but according to Christianity Jesus rests in heaaven.


Same with every one else.


See what Moses and Jesus have in common:

Moses and Jesus were Jewish.
Both Moses and Jesus hid in Egypt (as children) during a slaughter of babies.
Moses commanded 12 tribes while Jesus commanded 12 apostles.
God the Father spoke directly to both Moses and Jesus.
Moses and Jesus were both called the meekest of all men at their time.
Both had faces that radiated light.
Both worked miracles that both their followers and unbelievers observed.
Both fasted for forty days.
Both physically controlled water (making it possible to walk through or on it).
Both chemically controlled water (Moses turned water to blood Jesus turned water into wine).
Both Moses and Jesus knew when they would die.
They both died on a hill.
Jesus fed thousands of people with 2 fish and 5 loafs of bread (John 6:10-2) and Moses fed the Isrealites with manna (John 6:31).
Moses was a learned man and Jesus knew the Scripture well.
Moses and Jesus had followers that heard the voice of God
Moses and Jesus had a unique relationship with God.
Moses and Jesus both had to flee for their lives (Jesus was almost stoned)
Both Moses and Jesus were called to bring their people out of bondage
Both Jesus and Moses were disliked by the established authorities.
Moses gave the 10 commandments, Jesus gave the two Great commandments.
They both taught others how to pray
They lived a life of hardship
Their Followers strayed from their teachings



... words in the mouth...
It may be noted that there were no Arabic Bibles in existence in the 6th Century of the Christian Era when Muhammad live and preached. Besides, Muhammad was absolutely unlettered an unlearned. No human had ever taught him a word. His teacher was Allah. Kuran 53: 3 -5:


No COMPLETE bibles have been found. Plus, we don't have every single ancient religious writing from 7th century Arabia.
The Arabic Infancy Gospels were around in Muhammed's time and they contains storied found in the Quran.


By a queer coincidence groups Moses and Muhammad together thus adding further weight to the argument that JESUS is not like MOses but Muhammad like MOses: Deut 18:18 "Like Unto Thee" - Like MOSES!


You gave ths most vaguest porrest examples of similarity, but mine are much superior then yours. Jesus is truly the Prophet like Moses.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;

in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

-Hebrews 1:1-2

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Postby zampeada » Mon Jun 21, 2004 03:49 am

Believer wrote:Peace zampeada,

We are all sons and daughters of Adam, se we all are brothers.
But neither Adam nor ABraham is mentioned here.
The Edomites are the brother nation of Israel, but Ishmaelites are COUSINS.

God raised a Jewish prophet foe thr Jews, not an Arab, and He was from a future generation of Jews, a brother of Moses and his Israelites of his time. This is logical becasue it's a prophecy for a future event.

Would you deny that Jesus and Moses are brothers?


Would you deny that Muhammad, Jesus and Moses share the same ancestor, Abraham?

Abraham was mentioned to show that Muhammad, Jesus and Moses was from the same bloodline. THEREFORE, MUHAMMAD WERE AMONG BRETHEN.

Believer wrote:You're approach is wrong, let me show you why...


I WILL RAISE THEM UP A PROPHET FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHEN, LIKE UNTO THEE, AND I WILL PUT MY WORDS IN HIS MOUTH; AND HE SHALL SPEAK UNTO THEM ALL THAT I SHALL COMMAND HIM. (Deutronomy 18:18)

Jesus is the less likely to Moses.

All human biengs have a mother and father.
All human beings have normal births.
Most people get marroied and have chidlren, suppose we all could be the prophet.


Who was the subject? Moses, Jesus and Muhammad right? You are confusing yourself. Jesus is the less likely to Moses.

According to Christians, Jesus is the son of God. Would you deny that the fact Jesus is the son of God? Yet, Moses and Muhammad had father and mother.

SAY:"DO YOU SEE? WHETHER THIS MESSAGE BE FROM ALLAH (GOD ALMIGHTY), AND YET YOU REJECT IT, AND A WITNESS FROM AMONG THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL (Moses) BORE WITNESS OF ONE LIKE HIM (Quran 46:10)
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Postby Believer » Mon Jun 21, 2004 04:14 am

Peace zampeada,

Would you deny that Muhammad, Jesus and Moses share the same ancestor, Abraham?

Abraham was mentioned to show that Muhammad, Jesus and Moses was from the same bloodline. THEREFORE, MUHAMMAD WERE AMONG BRETHEN.


They are descendants of ABraham as we all are descendants of Adam.
But aren't Jesus and Moses brothers?
Aren't the Jews of the 1st century AD the brothers of the Jews of Moses's time?
God would not tell the Jews that he's going to raise then an Arab prophet.
Could it be that Deut 18 is a prophecy foretelling a future event talking about a Jew of a future generation? Thay is most sensible.


I WILL RAISE THEM UP A PROPHET FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHEN, LIKE UNTO THEE, AND I WILL PUT MY WORDS IN HIS MOUTH; AND HE SHALL SPEAK UNTO THEM ALL THAT I SHALL COMMAND HIM. (Deutronomy 18:1

Jesus is the less likely to Moses.


God did put the words in Jesus's mouth, every word He spoke in fact.
Can't say that with Muhammed.

Jesus and Moses are very alike, moreso then Mohammed and Moses.
Look at that big blue list I gave you.


Who was the subject? Moses, Jesus and Muhammad right? You are confusing yourself. Jesus is the less likely to Moses.


THe topic is who the prophet in Deut 18 is.

All human biengs have a mother and father.
All human beings have normal births.
Most people get married and have children, suppose we all could be the prophet.


With your very poor desperate examples most people could be the Prophet. We are all like Moses if we take your three seriously.


According to Christians, Jesus is the son of God. Would you deny that the fact Jesus is the son of God? Yet, Moses and Muhammad had father and mother.


We all have a father and mother, what is this mean? We are all like Moses.
Jesus as a man was a man like Moses.

Please read over the list of similarities between Jesus and Moses.
Are you not impressed?
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;

in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,

-Hebrews 1:1-2

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Postby zampeada » Mon Jun 21, 2004 06:24 am

Again, do you deny that Muhammad has the same bloodline as to Moses and Jesus?

It is obvious that Prophet is human. but according to Christian Dogma, Jesus is the son of God. Do you deny the fact that Moses in unlike Jesus in this criteria? How about my point on the leadership or King?

Leadership

The Weekly Newsmagazine TIME dated July 15, 1974, carried a selection of opinions by various historians, writers, military men, businessmen and others on the subject WHO WERE HISTORY'S GREAT LEADERS?

Jules Masserman, a United States psychoanalyst put the standard straight by giving the correct criteria wherewith to judge:

1. Provide for well-being of the led,
2. Provide a social organization in which people feel relatively secure
3. Provide them with one set of beliefs

He concludes that,

"PEOPLE LIKE PASTEUR AND SALK ARE LEADERS IN THE FIRST SENSE. PEOPLE LIKE GANDHI AND CONFUCIOUS, ON THE HAND, AND ALEXANDER, CAESAR AND HITLER ON THE OTHER, ARE LEADERS IN THE SECOND AND PERHAPS THE THIRD SENSE. JESUS AND BUDDHA BELONG IN THE THIRD CATEGORY ALONE. PERHAPS THE GREATEST LEADER OF ALL TIME WAS MOHAMMAED, WHO COMBINED ALL THREE FUNCTIONS. TO A LESSER DEGREE, MOSES DID THE SAME"

According to the objective standards set by Jules (who also Professor of the Chicago University who also believed as Jewish) - Jesus and Buddha are nowhere in the picture of Great leaders of Mankind, but groups Moses and Muhammad together which support the argument that JESUS is not like MOSES, but MUHAMMAD is like MOSES.

Words in the mouth
Kuran described Mary and Jesus in beautiful ways.

BEHOLD! THE ANGELS SAID: O MARY! GOD HATH CHOSEN THEE AND PURIFIED THEE - CHOSEN THEE ABOVE THE WOMEN OF ALL NATIONS (Quran, 3: 42)

Mary the mother of Jesus - A JEWESS - was chosen above women of all nations? Not his own mother, nor his wife,nor daughter, nor any other Arab woman, but a Jewess from his opposition.

Will anyone please explain the anomaly as to why Muhammad (if he is the author) chose this Jewess for such high honour? The answer is simple - HE HAD NO CHOICE - he had no right to speak of his own desire.

IT IS NO LESS THAN AN INSPIRATION SEND DOWN TO HIM (Quran, 53: 4)

There is also chapter in Quran namde after Mary, such honor is not to be found in Christian Bible. Out of the 66 books of the Protestants and 73 of the Roman Catholics, not one is named after Mary or her son. You will only find books named after Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul and two score more obsure names, but not a single one is that of Jesus or Mary?

Why? The words (revelation) were actually put into his mouth and he totally uttered it; Muhammad has no choice that accepted. This is exactly as foretold in the prophecy under discussion.

Your blue points
I think 12 tribes and 12 apostles are the most desperate attempt to show the similarity between Moses and Jesus... The number yes... but tribes and apostles are not the same.

Moses live in Egypt when he is young. Where else could his mother hid him? Whereas Jesus... his mother had to brought him to Egypt.

I do not impressed with your points.

Un-lettered Prophet
AND THE BOOK IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED, SAYING, READ THIS, I PRAY THEE: AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED (Isaiah, 29: 12). I quote it in the full verse without a break found in the KING JAMES VERSION OR AUTHORISED VERSION.

Does it sound familiar? Again, it may be noted that there were no Arabic Bibles in existence in the 6th Century of the Christian Era when Muhammad lived and preached. Besides he was absolutely unlettered and unlearned.

The Prophecy of Deutronomy 18:18
Was none other than Muhammad
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Postby Bushmaster » Mon Jun 21, 2004 05:06 pm

MUHAMMAD IN THE BIBLE?

During 1975 Ahmed Deedat held a series of lectures at the Durban City Hall, two of which set out to prove that Muhammad is foretold in the Bible. The first lecture, entitled "What the Bible Says About Muhammad", dealt with the prophecy in Deuteronomy 18.18 in the Old Testament, and in it Mr. Deedat sought to show that Moses was predicting the coming of Muhammad when speaking of a prophet to follow him who would be like him. During 1976 Mr. Deedat published this lecture in booklet form under the same title. In his second lecture in 1975 he spoke on "Muhammad the Natural Successor to Christ" and here he endeavoured to prove that Jesus was foretelling the coming of Muhammad when he exhorted his disciples to wait for the coming of the one he called the Comforter who, he said, would follow him.

Deedat's lectures were typical of numerous similar attempts that have been made by Muslim writers over the years to make these two particular prophecies fit Muhammad. The effort has generally arisen from a verse in the Qur'an which states that the coming of Muhammad was foretold in the Jewish and the Christian Scriptures. It reads:

Those who follow the Apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures) - in the Law and the Gospel.
Surah 7.157

It is not surprising, therefore, to find that Muslims have searched exhaustively through the "Law and the Gospel" (the Tawrat and the Injil, the Old and New Testaments respectively) for proof that these two books indeed contain prophecies of the coming of Muhammad. The Qur'an seems to suggest that these prophecies would be found in the Torah and the Gospel without much difficulty, but when Muslims have applied themselves to finding these alleged predictions, they have been unpleasantly surprised to discover that in these two books it is Jesus who is the subject of the many prophecies in them and not Muhammad. The birth of Jesus, his ministry, parables, miracles, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, second coming, deity, glory and honour are the concerns of the prophetic texts of the Torah and the Gospel, and so extensively do these prophecies herald his advent as the ultimate climax of God's revealed truth and love towards men that one cannot help but be struck by the fact that the Bible makes no allowance for the anti-climax of a "prophet" to follow him. Such prophecies are conspicuous only by their absence.

Nevertheless, spurred on by the assurance in the Qur'an that the Bible indeed foretells the coming of Muhammad, Muslims have made every effort to find these prophecies. The obvious dearth of material in support of their quest has led most of them to wisely rely solely on the two prophecies we have already mentioned - one in each of the Testaments -, to prove their claim. Others, like Kaldani and Vidyarthy, have unwisely tried to apply every major prophecy in the Bible to Muhammad (including striking predictions of the crucifixion, atoning work and resurrection of Jesus Christ in Isaiah 53 for example!), but the shameless twists of interpretation that they have been compelled to resort to together with an abdication of all reason in their efforts to prove their points has fortunately restrained other Muslims from following in their steps and they have accordingly relied solely on the two prophecies we have mentioned, one by Moses and one by Jesus respectively.

We are in the circumstances entitled to presume that these two prophecies are believed by the Muslims to be the strongest in support of their claims. Accordingly, if it can be proved that these texts do not in any way refer to Muhammad, or anticipate his advent or prophethood, then the whole theory that Muhammad is foretold in the Bible must simultaneously fall to the ground.

We shall therefore in this booklet generously consider the strongest evidence of the Muslims that Muhammad is foretold in these two passages and will, in the light of the context of each passage, and of other factors crucial to a proper determination of the matter, decide whether the evidence is sufficient to prove the point or whether the case must ultimately be found to go against them.

It is universally accepted in all civilised communities that if a matter is to be determined properly, all the relevant evidence must be weighed together and all irrelevant evidence must be ignored accordingly. No matter how great the temptation may be to ignore the relevant facts while giving undue weight to the irrelevant ones if this is the only way a matter can be decided in one's favour, the man who really loves the truth and seeks for it will resist the temptation. It is our sincere hope that the Muslims who read this document will do likewise.

MOSES AND THE PROPHET

"I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brethren; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him".
Deuteronomy 18.18

Whenever Muslims seek to establish that Muhammad is foretold in the Torah, the Old Testament, they invariably refer to this verse as the one obvious prophecy in support of their claim. They argue that the prophet who was promised by God to Moses was Muhammad because:

1. The Qur'an is allegedly the Word of God and therefore, as Muhammad recited each passage that was delivered to him, he had the words of God put into his mouth in accordance with the words of this prophecy;

2. The prophet to come would be from among the brethren of the Israelites, hence the Ishmaelites, because Israel (Jacob) and Ishmael were both descended from Abraham, and the tribes who descended from the twelve sons of Ishmael are therefore "brethren" of the tribes who descended from the twelve sons of Israel. As Muhammad was the only Ishmaelite to claim prophethood in the line of the Old Testament prophets, they aver that the prophecy can only refer to him;

3. Muhammad was like Moses in so many ways that the prophecy can only refer to him.

We shall consider these claims briefly and will do so in the light of the context of the prophecy, for this is the only way that a correct interpretation of the text can be obtained. Every intelligent expositor of scripture knows that no passage can be fairly interpreted if it is isolated from its context. Therefore it is essential to quote from the whole passage in which the prophecy is found and the following two extracts are of great importance:

The Levitical priests, that is, all the tribe of Levi, shall have no portion or inheritance with Israel; they shall eat the offerings by fire to the Lord, and his rightful dues. They shall have no inheritance among their brethren; the Lord is their inheritance as he promised them.
Deuteronomy 18.1-2.

The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren - him shall you heed - just as you desired of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, or see this great fire any more, lest I die'. And the Lord said to me, 'They have rightly said all that they have spoken. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brethren; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. And whoever will not give heed to my words which he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him. But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die'.
Deuteronomy 18.15-20.

We shall proceed to briefly consider the three points that supposedly prove that Muhammad is the prophet referred to in the text and thereafter will, in the light of the context of the passage, discover precisely which prophet is referred to in the prophecy contained in Deuteronomy 18.18.

1. THE WORD OF GOD IN THE PROPHET'S MOUTH.

Christians do not believe that the Qur'an is the Word of God but, purely for the sake of argument, we shall proceed as if God did indeed put his words in Muhammad's mouth to discover whether this might prove that Muhammad is the prophet referred to in Deuteronomy 18.18. In our view the statement "I will put my words in his mouth" does not help to identify the prophet referred to at all. It is true of every prophet that God has put his words in his mouth. For God said to Jeremiah:

"Behold I have put my words in your mouth".
Jeremiah 1.9

Furthermore we also read in Deuteronomy 18.18 that the prophet to follow Moses "shall speak to them all that I command him". Now we read that Jesus once said to his disciples:

"For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has bidden me".
John 12.49-50.

A similar text which illustrates this point is found in the great prayer which Jesus prayed on the last night that he was with his disciples. He said:

"I have given them the words which thou gavest me".
John 17.8

In no way, therefore, can the identity of the prophet in the text of Deuteronomy 18.18 be established from the fact that God would put his words in his mouth. With every prophet who is true this is the case and the great prophet referred to in the text, who would be uniquely like Moses in a way that none of the other prophets were, must accordingly be identified from other sources.

2. A PROPHET FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN.

Muslims allege that the expression "their brethren" in Deuteronomy 18.18 means the brethren of the Israelites, hence the Ishmaelites. In this case, however, if we are truly to discover the real identity of the prophet who would be like Moses, we must consider the expression in its context.

God said, "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brethren." Of whom is God speaking when he speaks of "them" and "their"? When we go back to the first two verses of Deuteronomy 18 we find the answer:

"The Levitical priests, that is, all the tribe of Levi, shall have no portion or inheritance with Israel ... they shall have no inheritance among their brethren".
Deuteronomy 18.1-2.

It is abundantly clear from these two verses that "they" refers to the tribe of Levi and that "their brethren" refers to the remaining eleven tribes of Israel. This is an inescapable fact. No honest method of interpretation or consistent method of exposition can possibly allow that Deuteronomy 18.18 refers to anyone else than the tribe of Levi and the remaining tribes of Israel. Let us briefly examine the only possible exposition of the prophecy that can lead to a correct interpretation and identification of "their brethren". We need only accentuate the relevant words from Deuteronomy 18.1-2 to discover the only possible conclusion that can be drawn. The text reads:

"The tribe of Levi shall have no inheritance with ISRAEL. They shall have no inheritance among THEIR BRETHEREN".

Therefore the only logical interpretation of Deuteronomy 18.18 can be: "I will raise up for them (that is, the tribe of Levi) a prophet like you from among their brethren (that is, one of the other tribes of Israel)". Indeed throughout the Old Testament one often finds the expression "their brethren" meaning the remaining tribes of Israel as distinct from the tribe specifically referred to. Let us consider this verse as an example:

But the children of Benjamin would not listen to the voice of their brethren, the children of Israel.
Judges 20.13

Here "their brethren" is specifically stated to be the other tribes of Israel as distinct from the tribe of Benjamin. In Deuteronomy 18.18, therefore, "their brethren" clearly means the brethren in Israel of the tribe of Levi. Again in Numbers 8.26 the tribe of Levi is commanded to minister to "their brethren", that is, the remaining tribes of Israel. In 2 Kings 24.12 the tribe of Judah is distinguished from "their brethren", once again the remaining tribes of Israel. (Further scriptures proving the point are Judges 21.22, 2 Samuel 2.26, 2 Kings 23.9, 1 Chronicles 12.32, 2 Chronicles 28.15, Nehemiah 5.1 and others).

Indeed in Deuteronomy 17.15 we read that Moses on one occasion said to the Israelites "One from among your brethren you shall set as king over you; you may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother". Only an Israelite could be appointed king of Israel - "one from among your brethren" - no foreigner, be he Ishmaelite, Edomite or whoever he may be, could be made King of Israel because he was not one of "their brethren", that is, a member of one of the tribes of Israel.

At this stage, therefore, we have a fatal objection to the theory that Muhammad is foretold in Deuteronomy 18.18. He was an Ishmaelite and accordingly is automatically disqualified from being the prophet whose coming was foretold in that verse. The prophet was obviously to come from one of the tribes of Israel other than the tribe of Levi. God said he would raise up a prophet for the Levites like Moses from among "their brethren", that is, from one of the other tribes of Israel. As we intend to prove that Jesus was the prophet whose coming was foretold it will be appropriate to mention at this stage that he was descended from the tribe of Judah (Matthew 1.2, Hebrews 7.14). He is therefore ably qualified to be the prophet who would be raised up from among the brethren of the Levites.

3. A PROPHET LIKE UNTO MOSES.

The Islamic publications listed in the Bibliography to this booklet are full of comparisons between Moses and Muhammad where evidence is brought forward of certain likenesses between them. These publications also produce many differences between Jesus and Moses as the authors try to disprove that Jesus is the prophet whose coming was foretold in Deuteronomy 18.18.

In his booklet "What the Bible Says About Muhummed" Mr. Deedat produces a number of similarities between Moses and Muhammad which he claims do not exist between Moses and Jesus. Most of these are meaningless, however, and only serve to show the supreme uniqueness of Jesus over against the whole human race. For example, Deedat argues that Moses and Muhammad were both born naturally of human parents and are buried on earth, whereas Jesus was born of a virgin-woman, had no earthly father, and ascended to heaven (Deedat, What the Bible Says About Muhummed", p. 7, 12). It is obvious that all men have natural parents and go back to the dust, and all Mr. Deedat is doing is to reveal certain ways in which Jesus was absolutely unique among men. This does not help to identify the prophet predicted by Moses, however.

In the publications referred to we do find occasionally more prominent likenesses between Moses and Muhammad which do need to be analysed more carefully. Three such comparisons are:

1. Moses and Muhammad became the lawgivers, military leaders, and spiritual guides of their peoples and nations;

2. Moses and Muhammad were at first rejected by their own people, fled into exile, but returned some years later to become the religious and secular leaders of their nations;

3. Moses and Muhammad made possible the immediate and successful conquests of the land of Palestine after their deaths by their followers, Joshua and Umar respectively.

At the same time it is alleged in these publications that Jesus and Moses were so different, according to Christian belief, that Jesus cannot be the prophet referred to. Such differences are these:

1. Moses was only a prophet but, according to Christian belief, Jesus is the Son of God;

2. Moses died naturally but Jesus died violently;

3. Moses was the national ruler of Israel which Jesus was not at any time during his ministry here on earth.

We are constrained to ask: do these similarities and contrasts in any way prove that Muhammad is the prophet like Moses whose coming was foretold in Deuteronomy 18.18? It is the easiest of matters to show that this sort of reasoning will in no way assist us to discover the real identity of the prophet. Firstly, none of the alleged differences between Moses and Jesus are of any importance. The Bible often calls Jesus a prophet as well as the Son of God (see, for example, Matthew 13.57, 21.11, and John 4.44) and the fact that Jesus died violently is hardly relevant to the issues at stake. Many prophets were killed by the Jews for their testimonies, a fact to which both the Bible and the Qur'an bear witness, (cf. Matthew 23.31, Surah 2.91). Furthermore the Bible teaches that the Christian Church as a whole has replaced the nation of Israel in this age as the collective object of God's special favours. Likewise, whereas Moses led that nation during his life on earth, so Jesus today heads the Church of God from his throne in heaven above. In this respect, therefore, he is really like Moses.

Secondly, if we reverse the process we can show many similarities between Moses and Jesus where Muhammad at the same time can be contrasted with them. Some of these are:

1. Moses and Jesus were Israelites - Muhammad was an Ishmaelite. (This is, as we have seen, a crucial factor in really determining the identity of the prophet who was to follow Moses).

2. Moses and Jesus both left Egypt to perform God's work - Muhammad was never in Egypt. Of Moses we read: "By faith he forsook Egypt" (Hebrews 11.27). Of Jesus we read: "Out of Egypt have I called my Son" (Matthew 2.15).

3. Moses and Jesus forsook great wealth to share the poverty of their people which Muhammad did not. Of Moses we read: "He considered abuse suffered for the Christ greater wealth than all the treasures of Egypt" and that he chose "to share ill-treatment with the people of God" (Hebrews 11.25-26). Of Jesus we read: "For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that by his poverty you might become rich" (2 Corinthians 8.9).

So we have similarities between Moses and Jesus where Muhammad can be contrasted with them. This shows how weak the Muslim method of comparing Moses with Muhammad (while contrasting them with Jesus) is, for it works both ways. How then can we truly identify the prophet who was to be like Moses?

As there were numerous prophets down the ages, it is logical to assume that this prophet would be uniquely like Moses in a way that none of the other prophets were. Clearly the prophet to come would emulate him in the exceptional and unique characteristics of his prophethood. Indeed we would expect that God would give some indication in the prophecy of the distinguishing features of this prophet who was to be like Moses. We only have to refer to the context of the prophecy to find this striking verse which very clearly gives us an indication of the nature of the prophet to follow:

"The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren - him you shall heed - just as you desired of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die' ".
Deuteronomy 18.15-16.

The prophet would be raised up just as God had raised Moses up as the mediator of the covenant which he gave at Horeb. The Israelites pleaded with Moses to become a mediator between them and God because they did not wish to hear God's voice face to face, and God said "They have rightly said all that they have spoken" (Deuteronomy 18.17). God henceforth raised Moses up as the mediator of the covenant between himself and Israel. We need also to consider that God spoke to Moses in a very special way as well and in the Bible we read:

Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.
Exodus 33.11

The Qur'an also teaches that God spoke directly to Moses in a way in which he did not speak to other prophets (Surah 4.164). Furthermore, to confirm the great mediatorial work which Moses was to perform, God did great signs and miracles through him in the presence of all Israel. Now as God had promised that the prophet to come would be like him in this mediatorial work, we must conclude that the distinguishing features of the prophet would be these:

1. He would be the direct mediator of a covenant between God and his people;

2. He would know God face to face;

3. His office would be confirmed by great signs and wonders which he would do by the power of God in the sight of all the nation of Israel.

This conclusion is in fact clearly established by these last words in the Book of Deuteronomy:

And there has not arisen a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, none like him for all the signs and wonders which the Lord sent him to do in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land, and for all the mighty power and all the great and terrible deeds which Moses performed in the sight of all Israel.
Deuteronomy 34.10-12.

The three distinguishing features of Moses as a prophet are clearly mentioned: he was the mediator between God and Israel, he knew the Lord face to face, and he did great signs and wonders. The prophet like him would obviously have to emulate these unique features of his prophethood. Did Muhammad possess these exceptional characteristics by which the prophet was to be recognised?

Firstly, whereas God spoke directly to Moses, so that he was a direct mediator between God and the people of Israel, the Qur'an is alleged to have come at all times from the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad and at no time did God directly communicate it to him face to face, as the Muslims themselves admit. He also did not mediate a covenant between God and the people of Israel.

Secondly, Muhammad performed no signs and wonders. Although the Hadith record some fanciful miracles, these are purely mythical, for the Qur'an very clearly says of Muhammad that he performed no signs. In Surah 6.37, when Muhammad's adversaries say "Why has no sign been sent down to him from his Lord?", Muhammad is bidden to reply merely that God could send one if he wanted to but had not done so. In the same Surah we read that Muhammad said, "I have not that for which you are impatient" (Surah 6.57), meaning signs and wonders such as Moses had. He goes on to say that if he had had them, the dispute between him and them would have been decided long ago.

Again in the same Surah Muhammad's adversaries say they will believe if signs come from God, but he only replies that God has reserved them because they would still disbelieve anyway (as indeed the Jews did with Jesus - John 12.37). Furthermore the Qur'an also says that Muhammad's adversaries in Mecca also once said to him:

"Why are not (signs) sent to him, like those which were sent to Moses?"
Surah 28.48

The answer the Qur'an gives is much the same - they rejected the signs of Moses anyway, so why do they now expect Muhammad to perform signs? Nevertheless, in terms of the prophecy in Deuteronomy 18.18, this was a very poignant and significant observation for it plainly distinguishes between Moses and Muhammad in the very important matter of performing signs and wonders. How indeed could Muhammad possibly be the prophet whose coming was foretold in Deuteronomy 18.18 if he was not granted the power to perform the kind of signs and wonders performed by Moses? In this case, therefore, he was definitely not like Moses in one of the vital, distinguishing characteristics of his prophethood. The Qur'an has its own testimony to this effect.

So we find that Muhammad was not a direct mediator between God and man, nor could he do any signs and wonders to confirm his office. Deuteronomy 34.11 makes it essential that the prophet like Moses would do similar signs and wonders to those which Moses did, and as Muhammad did not, we have a second fatal objection against the theory that he is the prophet foretold in Deuteronomy 18.18. We can conclude by saying that whatever evidence the Muslims may produce in favour of their assertion, the really relevant and crucial evidence needed to prove the point is not only unfavourable in his case but in fact fatally rules out the possibility that he might indeed be the prophet of whom Moses spoke.

4. JESUS - THE PROPHET LIKE UNTO MOSES.

Considering now whether Jesus is the prophet referred to, let us begin by answering a few typical objections raised by the Muslims. Firstly, if he was the Christ, they say he could not be the prophet to follow Moses, because the Jews distinguished between Elijah, the Christ, and the prophet (John 1. 19-21). The argument goes that John the Baptist is believed by the Christians to have come in the spirit of Elijah, Jesus was the Christ, and Muhammad, therefore, must have been the prophet. We have already shown, however, that it is impossible for Muhammad to be the prophet. In any even nothing conclusive can be construed from the speculations of the Jews. They once said of Jesus: "This is indeed the prophet" (John 7.40). On another occasion they said he was "one of the prophets" (Matthew 16.14), on another "a prophet" (Mark 6.15) and worse still thought of him as both Elijah (Mark 6.15) and John the Baptist himself (Matthew 16.14).

It needs to be pointed out that the Bible does not teach that Elijah, the Christ, and the prophet were to come in that order. The questions put by the Jews to John, whether he was Elijah, the Christ, or the prophet, merely expressed their own hopes and expectations of figureheads to come. In the light of their confusion, however, we can see that no serious consideration can be given to the distinctions they made between the Christ and the prophet. It is also important to note that the predictions of the prophet, etc., were made in the reverse order in the Old Testament (the prophet was promised by Moses, most of the prophecies of the coming Christ were set out in the writings of the later prophets, and the promise of the coming of Elijah only appears at the end of the book in Malachi 4.5). Furthermore no deliberate distinction between the prophet and the Christ was ever drawn in these prophecies and it is not surprising to find the Jews in one breath proclaiming that Jesus was indeed both the prophet and the Christ (John 7.40-41).

Another favourite objection is that Jesus died at the hands of the Jews and God said, in Deuteronomy 18.20, that only the self-styled prophets would die. Every prophet, however, died - many violently as the Qur'an and the Bible jointly testify - and the mere physical death of a prophet was certainly no evidence against his divine mission. God obviously did not mean that every true prophet would not die! What he meant was that a false prophet was to be put to death and would perish eternally - and all his prophecies with him. Only Judgment Day will reveal all the false prophets of the ages.

What we are ultimately concerned about is this - God gave a definite promise that a prophet would arise like Moses who would mediate another covenant and that signs would accompany this covenant to confirm its heavenly origin. The very Bible that contains the prophecy of the prophet to come confirms quite clearly that that prophet was Jesus Christ. The Apostle Peter, claiming that God had foretold the coming of Jesus Christ through all the prophets, appealed specifically to Deuteronomy 18.18 as proof that Moses had done so (Acts 3.22). Jesus himself said, "Moses wrote of me" (John 5.46) and it is difficult to find elsewhere in the five books of Moses such a direct prophecy of his advent. Peter chose Deuteronomy 18.18 as the one distinctive prophecy in all the writings of Moses of the coming of Jesus Christ into the world.

Likewise in Acts 7.37 Stephen appealed to Deuteronomy 18.18 as proof that Moses was one of those who had "announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One", Jesus, the one whom the Jews had recently betrayed and crucified.

After witnessing all the signs that Jesus had done and after taking part in the New Covenant which he had mediated face-to-face between God and his people, the early Christians knew that Jesus was the prophet whose coming was foretold in Deuteronomy 18.18. They also knew that the prophecy of a prophet to come like Moses had been supplemented by God's promise to the prophet Jeremiah that he would mediate a new covenant in the days to come between himself and his people. For in speaking of this new covenant God clearly distinguished between it and the old covenant he had made with Moses and it was therefore obvious that the one who would mediate it would be the prophet whose coming Moses had foretold. God said:

"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the Lord. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each man teach his neighbour and each his brother, saying 'Know the Lord', for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more".
Jeremiah 31.31-34.

"I will make a new covenant", God said, thereby confirming the promise in Deuteronomy 18 that a prophet would come to mediate between God and his people in the likeness of Moses. The promised new covenant was directly compared with the covenant God had made with Moses. The covenant would be different to that given through Moses but the prophet who would mediate it would be like him. It is therefore quite obvious that the prophet whose coming was foretold in Deuteronomy 18.18 would be the one to mediate this new covenant between God and his people. And we read: "Therefore Jesus is the mediator of a new covenant" (Hebrews 9.15). To ratify the first covenant we read that:

Moses took the blood and threw it upon the people, and said, 'Behold the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words'.
Exodus 24.8

Just as the first covenant had therefore been ratified by the blood of a sacrificial offering, so the prophet to follow Moses would be like him and would also ratify God's new covenant with blood. And Jesus therefore said:

"This cup is the new covenant in my blood".
1 Corinthians 11.25

God's promise of the coming of a prophet like Moses who would mediate a new covenant was one of the great blessings in the days preceding the advent of Jesus Christ. Although God mediated the old covenant through Moses, the blazing fire the Israelites saw together with the tempests and other portents made them "entreat that no further messages be spoken to them. For they could not endure the order that was given" (Hebrews 12.19-20). They all broke the covenant (Jeremiah 31.31) and died in the wilderness like flies (1 Corinthians 10.5). They failed to receive the life that was promised to those who abided by the old covenant.

Therefore God promised to their descendants that he would raise up another prophet like Moses and would mediate a new covenant through him which God's people would both give heed to and obtain the promised blessings accompanying it - true knowledge of God, forgiveness of sins, power to keep God's law, and the public favour of God (Jeremiah 31.33-34). This new covenant Jesus brought in in due time.

Unlike the Israelites under the old covenant who fell by the wayside, the people of God through this new covenant have come "to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel" (Hebrews 12.23-24). This is the covenant which Jesus brought in.

Jesus therefore is the promised prophet like Moses for he mediated the new covenant between God and his people. Like Moses (and in a way in which no other prophet could compare), he also knew God face-to-face and became a direct mediator between God and men. "I know him, I come from him, and he sent me", Jesus said (John 7.29). Again he proclaimed: "No one knows the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him" (Matthew 11.27). And yet again Jesus said: "Not that anyone has ever seen the Father except him who is from God - he has seen the Father" (John 6.46). And what further evidence do we need that Jesus knew God face-to-face and is the direct mediator between him and men than these two verses: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by me ... Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14.6, 14.9).

When he spoke to God face-to-face, "Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him" (Exodus 34. 29-30). When the image of the invisible God was directly revealed through the transfigured face of Jesus Christ, "his face did shine as the sun" (Matthew 17.2). No other prophet could claim such a distinction - no one else knew God face-to-face in such a way that his face shone while he communed with him.

Not only was the new covenant mediated through Jesus who knew God face-to-face as Moses had done, but he too performed great signs and wonders to confirm his mediatorial work. One of the greatest signs that Moses did was to control the sea: "Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind" (Exodus 14.21). Although other prophets had power over rivers (Joshua 3.13, 2 Kings 2.14), no other prophet emulated him in controlling the sea until Jesus came and we read that his disciples exclaimed "What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him?" (Matthew 8.27). He caused a raging storm on the Sea of Galilee to cease with just three words: "Peace - be still" (Mark 4.39).

Another of the great signs that Moses did was the feeding of the Israelites with bread from heaven. When the Israelites at the time of Jesus saw him perform a similar miracle by feeding no less than five thousand people with just a few loaves of bread they were convinced that he was the promised prophet.

When the people saw the sign which he had done, they said, 'This is indeed the prophet who is to come into the world'.
John 6.14

When they saw the sign, they said "This is the prophet". They knew well enough that the promised prophet would be recognised among other things by the performance of signs similar to those which Moses had done. When Jesus gave no indication of repeating the sign, the Israelites recalled that Moses had performed his feat for forty years unabated. So they said to Jesus, "What sign do you do that we may see and believe you?" (John 6.30), appealing to Moses' act of sustaining the lives of their forefathers in the wilderness. Jesus replied:

"I am the Bread of Life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down from heaven that a man may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh".
John 6.48-51.

In every way he gave proof that he was the prophet who was to come - one to mediate a covenant like that mediated through Moses at Horeb - one who would know God face-to-face - one who would perform great signs and wonders as Moses had done. In every way the Jews were right on this one point when they said "This is really the prophet" (John 7.40).

So it is proved that Muhammad is not foretold in Deuteronomy 18.18 but rather that the prophet whose coming was foretold in that verse was Jesus Christ. We shall go on to see that if Muhammad is not foretold on the Old Testament, neither is he foretold in the New Testament.

We shall again see that Jesus Christ is the climax of all prophecy in all the revealed scriptures of God. For all the promises, revelations and blessings of God are vested in him - the fountainhead of the love and favour of God towards men.

For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why we utter the Amen through him, to the glory of God.
2 Corinthians 1.20

We shall also see, even more clearly, that in the Torah and the Gospel there is only one Saviour, one man alone through whom the favour of God can be obtained. While there were many prophets in ages past - both true and false - yet for us there is only one Lord and one Saviour - Jesus Christ. Again it will be seen how deeply God wishes to impress this truth upon all men that they may believe in and follow Jesus Christ into the Kingdom of Heaven.

For all who do not heed his words or believe in him with all their hearts, there remains only a "fearful prospect of judgment" (Hebrews 10.27) when God will fulfill his warning in Deuteronomy 18.19 by requiring of them their unbelief in the Saviour he sent and he will surely dismiss them, one and all, from his presence for ever and ever.

Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and your household.
Acts 16.31

JESUS AND THE COMFORTER

Whenever Muslims seek to prove that Muhammad is foretold in the New Testament, they immediately appeal to the promise of Jesus that the "Comforter" would follow him and claim that this Comforter was Muhammad (particularly as in the Qur'an, Jesus is alleged to have foretold the coming of Muhammad in Surah 61.6 in similar language). Whereas the Revised Standard Version uses the word "Counsellor" rather than "Comforter", we shall use the word "Comforter" throughout this chapter because it is more familiar to the Muslims. The texts where the Comforter is mentioned by Jesus are:

"And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you".
John 14.16-17.

"But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you".
John 14.26

"But when the Comforter comes, whom I shall send you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me".
John 15.26

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you".
John 16.7

It is generally alleged by Muslims that the Greek word "paracletos" (meaning Comforter, Counsellor, Advocate, etc., in effect, one who unites men to God) is not the original word but that Jesus in fact foretold the coming of Muhammad by name and that the translation of his name into Greek (or at least the meaning of his name in Greek) is "periklutos", that is, the "praised one".

There is not a shred of evidence in favour of the assertion that the original word was "periklutos". We have thousands of New Testament manuscripts pre-dating Islam and not one of these contains the word "periklutos". In view of the fact that Muslims are prone to levelling false allegations that Christians are regularly changing the Bible, it is rather intriguing to find that they have no scruples about doing this themselves when it suits them to do so. In any event a cursory reading of the texts where the word "paracletos" appears will show that this is the only word that suits the context as I will show in one instance later on in this chapter.

Some wiser Muslims admit that "paracletos" is correct, but they claim in any event that Muhammad was the Comforter whom Jesus was referring to. Let us briefly examine some of the texts in a truly exegetical manner to discover whether Muhammad is indeed the Comforter whose coming Jesus foretold.

It is quite obvious from the four texts quoted that Comforter, Holy Spirit, and Spirit of Truth are interchangeable terms and that Jesus is speaking of the same person in each instance. The one obvious fact that emerges is that the Comforter is a spirit. (The fact that Jesus always speaks of the Spirit in the masculine gender in no way suggests that the Comforter must be a man as some of the publications in the Bibliography suggest. God himself is always spoken of in both the Bible and the Qur'an in the masculine gender and God is spirit - John 4.24. In the same way Jesus always speaks of the Comforter as a spirit and not as a man).

If we apply sound exegesis to John 14.16-17 we shall discover no less than eight reasons why the Comforter cannot possibly be Muhammad.

1. "He will give YOU another Comforter".

Jesus promised his disciples that God would send the Comforter to them. He would send the Spirit of Truth to Peter, and to John, and to the rest of the disciples - not to Meccans. Medinans or Arabians.

2. "He will give you ANOTHER Comforter".

If, as Muslims allege, the original word was periklutos and that Christians changed it into paracletos, then the sentence would have read, "He will give you another praised one". This statement is both out of place in its context and devoid of support elsewhere in the Bible. Jesus is never called the "periklutos" in the Bible (the word appears nowhere in the Bible) so it is grossly unlikely that he would have said "He will give you another praised one" when he never used that title for himself. Worse still, as the Muslims allege that he actually foretold the coming of Muhammad by mentioning his name, the sentence in that case would have read "He will give you another Muhammad". The further the Muslims try to press the point, the more absurd it tends to become.

John 16.12-13 makes it clear that the word "paracletos" is obviously the correct one. The text reads: "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth". In other words, I have been your Comforter, your paracletos, and have many things to tell you, but I send the Spirit of Truth to you, another Comforter, another paracletos.

In 1 John 2.1 we read that Christians have an "advocate" with the Father, "Jesus Christ the Righteous", and the word translated "advocate" is paracletos in the Greek. So Jesus is our paracletos, our Comforter and advocate with the Father, and he promised to give his disciples another Comforter. It is therefore logical to find that Jesus promised another paracletos when he himself was described as the paracletos of his followers, but it is illogical to suggest that he would speak of "another periklutos" when the word was never used to describe him in the first place.

3. "To be with you FOREVER".

When Muhammad came he did not stay with his people forever but died in 632 AD and his tomb is in Medina where his body has lain for over 1300 years. Nevertheless Jesus said that the Comforter, once he had come, would never leave his disciples, but would be with them forever.

4. "The Spirit of Truth whom the world CANNOT receive".

The Qur'an says that Muhammad came as a universal messenger to men (Surah 34.28). If so, Jesus was not referring to Muhammad for he said that the world cannot receive the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth.

5. "You KNOW him".

It is quite obvious from this statement that the disciples knew the Spirit of Truth. As Muhammad was only born more than five hundred years later, it certainly could not be him. The next clause brings out just how the disciples knew him. At this stage we can see quite clearly that the Comforter is a spirit who was in the disciples' presence already.

6. "He dwells WITH you".

Where did the Comforter dwell with them? From various verses, especially John 1.32, we can see that the Spirit was in Jesus himself and so was with the disciples.

7. "He will be IN you".

Here the death-blow is dealt to the theory that Muhammad is the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth. As the Spirit was in Jesus, so he would be in the disciples as well. The Greek word here is "en" and this means "right inside". So Jesus was in fact saying "he will be right inside you".

8. The last reason is really a re-emphasis of the first one. Do you notice how often Jesus addresses his own disciples when he speaks of the sphere of influence of the Comforter? "You know him ... he dwells with you ... he will be in you". Quite clearly the disciples were to anticipate the coming of the Comforter as a spirit who would come to them just after Jesus had left them. No other interpretation can possibly be drawn from this text. Only wishful thinking makes the Muslims allege that Muhammad was foretold by Jesus, but a practical interpretation of the texts destroys this possibility.

Let us read how the Spirit came to Jesus: "The Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove" (Luke 3.22). We read that the Spirit, the Comforter, came to the disciples in a similar way just after the ascension of Jesus (as Jesus told them he would): "And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2.3-4). He was with the disciples in the person of Jesus while he was still with them, and he was in the disciples from the day of Pentecost. We thus see the prediction Jesus made in John 14.17 duly fulfilled in the coming of the Holy Spirit.

Within only ten days after the ascension of Jesus, the disciples duly received the Comforter as he was promised to them by Jesus. He had told them to wait in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, should come (Acts 1.4-8) as indeed he did while they were all together praying for his advent in the city. Muhammad is right out of this picture.

Moving on now to John 16.7 (quoted earlier), the whole meaning of this verse also becomes clear from the statement of Jesus, "I have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now" (John 16.12). Jesus also said: "It is to your advantage that I go away" (John 16.7). The disciples could not bear his teaching now because they were ordinary men devoid of power to comprehend or apply what he said. The Spirit of Truth was indeed in Jesus, but was not yet in his disciples, so they were unable to follow the spiritual elements in his teaching. But after the ascension they received the Spirit and could now communicate and understand his teaching because the Spirit of Truth was in them as well. That is why Jesus said "it is to your advantage that I go away". This is made equally clear elsewhere in the Bible:

What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him, God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.
1 Corinthians 2.9-13.

Paul makes it plain that the Spirit had already been given and if it had not, it could not have been to any advantage to the disciples to be without Jesus once he had ascended to heaven.

So it is abundantly proved that Muhammad is not the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter, whose coming Jesus foretold. Who is the Comforter then? He is the very Spirit of the living God as can be seen from some of the quotations already given. On the day when the Comforter duly came upon the disciples, his coming was accompanied by a tremendous sound, "like the rush of a mighty wind" (Acts 2.2). When the Jews heard this, they rushed together to see what was happening. Peter declared to them all:

"This is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh' ".
Acts 2.16-17.

The Comforter, the Spirit of God, had come down on the disciples as Jesus had promised and was to be given to believing Christian men and women from every nation under the sun. But notice how Peter linked the coming of the Spirit with the ascension of Christ:

"This Jesus God raised up and of that we are all witnesses. Being therefore exacted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you see and hear".
Acts 2.32-33.

Clearly the coming of the Comforter was inseparably linked to the risen, ascended glory of Jesus in the highest place that heaven affords. The Comforter is also called "the Spirit of Christ" (Romans 8. 9) and the reason is plain from what Jesus said:

1. "He will glorify me" (John 16.14).

2. "He will bear witness to me" (John 15.26).

3. "He will convince the world concerning sin because they do not believe in me" (John 16. 8-9).

4. "He will take what is mine and declare it to you" (John 16.14).

5. "He will bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you" (John 14.26).

Quite obviously the great work of the Comforter is to bring people to Jesus, to make them see him as Saviour and Lord, and to draw them to him. The Comforter was given so that the glory of Jesus might be revealed to men and in men. A beautiful example of this is given by the Apostle John:

His disciples did not understand this at first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that this had been written of him and done to him.
John 12.16

Without the Spirit, they had no understanding, but when they received the Spirit after Jesus was glorified, then they remembered as Jesus said they would. John illustrates this in this passage as well:

On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and proclaimed, 'If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink. He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water'. Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
John 7.37-39.

As soon as Jesus was glorified the Spirit was given so that the glory of Jesus in heaven might become real to men here on earth. As Peter said (Acts 2.33), once Jesus was exalted at the right hand of God, the Spirit was freely given to his disciples.

Again Peter said, "The God of our fathers glorified Jesus" (Acts 3.13). We cannot see or comprehend this glory of Jesus here on earth (and Jesus himself said, "I do not receive glory from men" John 5.41), but he sent the Spirit so that we might behold this glory by the eye of faith. As Jesus himself said to his disciples of the Spirit:

"He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine, therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you".
John 16.14-15.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and he is given to all true believers so that the glory of Jesus in heaven may become real to men on earth. John makes it plain how a man receives the Holy Spirit:

Now this he spoke about the Spirit, which those who BELIEVED in him were to receive.
John 7.39

To receive the Comforter, the Spirit of God, one must believe in Jesus and surrender body and soul to him. Without the Spirit no one sees or believes in the glory of Christ, but for those who are his true followers and who are sanctified by the Holy Spirit (1 Peter 1.2), Peter says:

Without having seen him, you love him, though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with unutterable and exalted joy. As the outcome of your faith you obtain the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1.8-9.

The distinction between those who have received the Spirit and those who have not, those who have beheld the glory of Christ and those who have not, comes out very clearly as Peter continues to speak to his fellow-believers:

To you therefore who believe, he is precious, but for those who do not believe, 'The very stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner'.
1 Peter 2.7

The Bible says much about the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, but the great and most handsome work of the Spirit is summed up in Jesus' words:

"HE WILL GLORIFY ME".
John 16.14

Although the Spirit had been at work in the world before the advent of Jesus Christ, and had indeed filled many of the great prophets and men of old with a longing for the coming Christ, he only finally united himself to men, and men to God, and indeed true believers to one another after the resurrection and ascension of Christ to heaven.

Jesus Christ spoke to his OWN disciples of the coming of the Comforter because the Spirit was sent down to comfort and regenerate all true believers in Jesus. This is one of the most significant and consistent elements of the teaching of Jesus about the Comforter. The prime purpose of the coming of the Comforter - immediately after the ascension of Jesus - was to draw men to him so that those who are influenced by the work of the Comforter will therefore become followers of Jesus. It is further evidence against the theory that Muhammad was the Comforter for, whereas the Comforter would not speak of himself but only of Jesus, Muhammad drew attention away from Jesus to himself, describing himself as the ultimate apostle of God to be followed and obeyed. The Comforter was never to do a thing like this. Jesus made it plain that the Comforter would draw the attention and faith of all men to himself and would glorify him before the eyes of faith of true believers as the Lord of glory in heaven.

After Jesus Christ had ascended to heaven to be glorified at the right hand of God above all the angels and departed saints, the Comforter came immediately upon his disciples to make this glory real to them and through them to spread it all over the world. For Jesus Christ is the very image of the Father's glory. In him are all things united, whether in heaven or on earth. He is the climax of God's plan for the fulness of time. He is the beginning and the end of all God's gracious work in all ages - for all the salvation and glory that God has prepared for those who love him are vested in Jesus.

The Comforter came to give us a foretaste of this glory. He came to make the resplendent glory of Jesus real to those who follow him. As Moses encouraged his people to look forward to the prophet who would be like him, who would mediate a new covenant to save all who truly believe, so the Comforter encourages Christ's followers in this age to look up to the risen, ascended, Lord Jesus Christ who sits on the throne of God in eternal glory above the heavens.

Far from Muhammad being foretold in the Bible, every prophecy, every agent of God, every true prophet and spirit, looks upward towards the radiance of the Father's glory, the one who sits upon the throne, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ ascended to heaven - God took him to himself. For Jesus alone is the Redeemer of the world. He alone is able, as a man, to enter the holy presence of the Father's throne and fill it with his own glorious majesty. So likewise he is able to reconcile sinful men to God and will one day be seen again in all his splendour as he comes to call his own - those who eagerly awaited his coming before his time and all those who since his sojourn on this earth look forward to his return from heaven - to be with him where he is to behold with awe the glory which the Father gave him in his love for him before the foundation of the world.

Moses rejoiced to see his day when speaking of the prophet to come. The Comforter today still rejoices to reveal his glory and majesty to those in whom he dwells. The angels and departed saints await with longing for the day when he shall be revealed to all the universe in all his magnificence - when all men shall be raised from the dead to see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, a day when the Comforter's work will be finally completed, a day when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that it is Jesus Christ who is Lord - to the everlasting glory of God the Father - Amen!


http://answering-islam.org.uk/Gilchrist/muhammad.html
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Postby zampeada » Tue Jun 22, 2004 05:32 am

to Bushmaster,

Do you not accept that the fact, according to your Christian Dogma that Jesus is son of God. Is Moses son of God?

How can Jesus be Jewish if his father was God?

Do explain?
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Postby Bushmaster » Tue Jun 22, 2004 01:13 pm

Do you not accept that the fact, according to your Christian Dogma that Jesus is son of God. Is Moses son of God?


People have been trying to tell you, THAT IS NOT THE SOLE AND ONLY CRITERIA. YOU IGNORE THE BIBLICAL CONTEXT OF VERSES. Jesus is fully GOD and fully Man! Now go back and read what has been written, instead of shutting your eyes and ears, and yelling "LA LA LA LA LA LA..." Ignore the solid evidence that is brought forth, kind of, sort of like the comical "Wizard" of Oz. Once Dorothy, the Tin Man and the Cowardly Lion see him standing behind the curtain, all he can say is "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. I am the great and powerful Oz." So yusuf, be the the Wizard and continue to shout, "pay no attention to that evidence", but it simply won't go away. It's there for everyone to see.
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Postby zampeada » Tue Jun 22, 2004 01:24 pm

Bushmaster wrote:
Do you not accept that the fact, according to your Christian Dogma that Jesus is son of God. Is Moses son of God?


People have been trying to tell you, THAT IS NOT THE SOLE AND ONLY CRITERIA. YOU IGNORE THE BIBLICAL CONTEXT OF VERSES. Jesus is fully GOD and fully Man! Now go back and read what has been written, instead of shutting your eyes and ears, and yelling "LA LA LA LA LA LA..." Ignore the solid evidence that is brought forth, kind of, sort of like the comical "Wizard" of Oz. Once Dorothy, the Tin Man and the Cowardly Lion see him standing behind the curtain, all he can say is "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. I am the great and powerful Oz." So yusuf, be the the Wizard and continue to shout, "pay no attention to that evidence", but it simply won't go away. It's there for everyone to see.


That was just one criteria. Don't be outraged... There is more... (still cannot change the fact that Moses was just human. discredit the fact that Jesus is like Moses)

1. Moses and Jesus were Israelites - Muhammad was an Ishmaelite. (This is, as we have seen, a crucial factor in really determining the identity of the prophet who was to follow Moses).


You forgot that Israelites and Ismaelites share the same ancestors; Abraham.

Do you not agree that Ismael was the forefather of Arabs?

Jewish (or in your case Israelites) were the people who God sent the most Prophet. How special they were to god? They also referred as the people of Book in Quran. But now, God arise the last Prophet from their own Brethen the Arabs who never was sent by God any Prophet previously... Not even a book. They were so angry of this... But Why? Aren't they the chosen people? Read the history, how they view the Arabs Brethen. Oh sorry... You can read from Bible itself, that the mother of Ismael, Hagar as concubine?

Now if they ignore the fact that Ismael was the forefather of Arabs... They could simply ignore the fact that Muhammad was Arab, hence among their Brethen. Simple as that. How can Muhammad be Prophet? He is not Jewish?

AGAIN, do you not agree that Ismael was the forefather of Arabs?
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Postby Bushmaster » Tue Jun 22, 2004 06:19 pm

That was just one criteria. Don't be outraged... There is more... (still cannot change the fact that Moses was just human. discredit the fact that Jesus is like Moses)


Yea well, if only you could uncover those eyes and eyes and read what has been posted by 3 people already, people would not be outraged after your deliberate being headstrong. The prophet in question here is JESUS, the Old Testament tells so, the New Testament tells so, they BOTH affirm so, biblical exegesis says so, biblical context shows so, biblical prophecies say so, it doesn't matter how long and how far you are willing to keep running in muslim circles, desperately trying to show it was muhammad, yet you can not even prove "this part of the bible" has been corrupted or not according to your islamic scholars.

Do you not agree that Ismael was the forefather of Arabs?


Irrelevant, I haven't mentioned such agreement or disagreement, don't charge me with something I didn't say, READ THE ENTIRE TEXT, don't pick and choose. You picked a sentence out of the entire text to show that they are brothers. Sorry they are not, not in here, in biblical contextual sense, when Moses was speaking God's word here, he was addressing the Israelites not anyone else, rhetorics and semantics don't save muhammad here.

Jewish (or in your case Israelites) were the people who God sent the most Prophet. How special they were to god? They also referred as the people of Book in Quran. But now, God arise the last Prophet from their own Brethen the Arabs who never was sent by God any Prophet previously... Not even a book. They were so angry of this... But Why? Aren't they the chosen people? Read the history, how they view the Arabs Brethen. Oh sorry... You can read from Bible itself, that the mother of Ismael, Hagar as concubine?


I don't even know what you are trying spell out here, you jump from one topic to another. Entire world can see how arabs treat their israelite brothers today, in history they are your brothers to prove muhammad's prophethood but now they are not, all the world see how ishmaelites are indeed like WILD ASSES as it has been prophesied in Genesis.


Now if they ignore the fact that Ismael was the forefather of Arabs... They could simply ignore the fact that Muhammad was Arab, hence among their Brethen. Simple as that. How can Muhammad be Prophet? He is not Jewish?


You like to be stuck with one single issue as we can see, technically it is correct that since ishamel and isaac were brothers so Moses and Muhammad would be brothers too, well not in the biblical text, read entire Deut. 18 ... Since you are ignorant of the biblical context, let me show you where it is WRITTEN that JESUS IS THE LAST ONE to come no one else!!!

Jesus said that there would be no more prophets that followed Him. It's included in a parable.

The Parable of the Wicked Vinedressers
(Mark 12:1-12; Luke 20:9-19)
33 "Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country.
34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit.
35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another.
36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them.
37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'
38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.


In this parable Jesus is describing God sending prophets (the servants who were beaten, killed and stoned). Then Jesus describes Himself when He speaks about the "son" coming LAST OF ALL. If the Son came last of all then there can be no prophet AFTER the last of all. Jesus is clear...there would be no more prophets like the ones of old.

These verses in Hebrews 1 also add finality to God's revelation:

1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Concerning the anti-Christ, John explains it best in 1 John 4,

1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

Any person or religion that does not confess that Jesus is the Christ come in the flesh is the spirit of the anti-Christ.

These verses explain what this means:

1Co 8:6 - "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him."

1Co 12:3 - "Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit."

AGAIN, do you not agree that Ismael was the forefather of Arabs?


Keep running in muslim circles my friend, it builds your stamina up. Maybe then you can prove Muhammad was in the bible, don't forget the trash the Bible verses which strictly point away from Muhammad though, pick those which seem to tell about Muhammad.
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Postby zampeada » Fri Jun 25, 2004 03:50 am

Bushmaster wrote:Since you are ignorant of the biblical context, let me show you where it is WRITTEN that JESUS IS THE LAST ONE to come no one else!!!


I don't have to say much. It is plain to see why, cuz you don't believed in Muhammad as the last Prophet.

Although we do share one point, the Deutronomy 18:18 was a prophecy.
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Postby Bushmaster » Fri Jun 25, 2004 04:01 am

A'ight...
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Postby webmaster » Thu Jul 08, 2004 03:16 am

Jesus Christ is the Prophet spoken of in Deuteronomy 18.18
As spoken of in Acts by Peter and by the Words of Jesus Christ himself in the Gospel's!

Acts 3

1. Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour.
2. And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple;
3. Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms.
4. And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.
5. And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.
6. Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
7. And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ancle bones received strength.
8. And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
9. And all the people saw him walking and praising God:
10. And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him.
11. And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.
12. And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
13. The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15. And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
16. And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17. And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.


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