Christian/Muslim ThreadsDebunking Zakir Naik (A reply to Unity)Kai wrote: Kai replies: Live debate can be tricky as little room is left for covering an entire aspect, it also depends upon whether the other debater really is a debater and is able to deal with crucial questions face to face without the time to sit down and consider the issues. Zakir Naik has refused to debate e.g. Sam Shamoun who is a debater, while according to many debaters Campbell is a great writer and speaker but not a debater; there is a considerable difference. Most followers of atheism are English speakers, does that support their case? They even belief in such stupid fairytales as Darwinist evolution. I assume that you refrain from the belief that our cousins are chimpanzees. Kai wrote: Let me encourage you to study Anaxagoras, Anaximander, Anaxamenus, Thales, Plato, Aristotle, Ptolemy and Lucretius, just to refer to a few. Unity answered:
Kai replies: Well unity, the Qur’an itself makes this analogy, if we do not need philosophy why does the Qur’an say:
As I have already proven, the disbelievers believed this very thing, that the heavens and earth were one piece and were separated. Here the Qur’an refers to various ancient philosophers, such as Aristotle’s writings and Lucretius! Or look at Tabari: This was exactly the belief of Plato, Ptolemy and the entire scientific enterprise prior, within and beyond Muhammad’s era. Here is Plato in his Timaeus: See also Ptolemy: (M. Ashmand (trans.), Ptolemy’s Tetrabiblos, London, Davis and Dickson: 1822; see Ptolemy’s Tetrabiblos, Chapter IV: The Influences of the Planetary Orbs, 14 http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/ptb/ptb07.htm and Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos, Appendix No_ I_ Almagest; Book VIII, Chap_ IV.htm, 144-7, http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/ptb/ptb74.htm This is exactly what Tabari referred to as being the knowledge of Muhammad. This idea implied that the there were seven planets, which included the five named planets and the sun and moon. These all orbited the earth, in seven tracts. Yusuf Ali states about these seven tracts: Take a good look at Plato and Ptolemy again, and see where the idea comes from; yeah exactly the Greeks. They believed that the five planets and the sun and moon orbited the earth in seven tracts. Tabari reveals that Muhammad possessed this opinion. Furthermore the Qur’an also refers to the universe possessing seven heavens and earths: Interestingly the Jews possessed this exact idea, of seven heavens and seven earths, and Muhammad’s close proximity with the Jews, and the fact that Jewish cosmologists were among the companions of Muhammad, explains how this concept entered the Qur’an. See Aboth D ’Rabbi Nathan, chapter XXXVII in A. Cohen, The minor Tractates of the Talmud, vol.2, The Soncino Press, London, 1965: 185 That is refers to the Greeks and the seven tracts or heavens and the seven earths is confirmed by Sura 71: 15: This is exactly in accordance with Plato, in which the sun was a glorious lamp orbiting amongst the seven tracts. It has to be pointed out however, that the Koran here, mixes Greek and Jewish philosophy. Whatever, this is wrong science, as our solarsystem contains nine planets perhaps more and approximately eleven, say the sun and moon was included. Furthermore the Koran is wrong in stating that the sun, moon and the planets seven or eleven orbit around the earth. The Qur’an also states that the interstellar, the sun and moon float or swim out in space: Lets see what Al-Tabari has to say about this: Then lets look at pre-Islamic philosophy; lets look at Lucretius, writing 550 year prior to Muhammad: Do I need to continue? We see that there are striking similarities between the Qur’an and the ancient philosophers, and as we red in Sura 21 the Qur’an even makes this analogy. Kai wrote: Then try to compare the similarities between the Koran and these ancients scholars, this would be a choking experience. Unity replied: Kai replies: How can you be sure? Ok lets look at the Bible and Koran then Unity wrote: Kai replies: I know this was the assumption of Maurice Bucaille, but still this is only a claim, the Ayyaams can refer longer periods, but it can also refer to literal days. However, the same claim is made by many in connection with the six days creation of the Bible. In fact the Hebrew word Yom can refer to a literal day or a longer period. Hence in the same way as Muslims argue for literal six days and some for six epochs, in the same way many Christians and Jews argue for the same possibilities. Unity wrote:
Kai replies: Not entirely correct bro In fact if you look at the Genesis one, the heaven and earth are created in verse 1: In ancient Hebrew, Akkadia and international language, this reference was not explicitly of a heaven and earth but the cosmos. Hence it is in verse one, we see the heaven and its affair was created. The earth is referred in verse 2 as in a process of being formed, formless and empty and covered with water. In verse 3 light is created, and notice that the light is then separated from darkness The day does not begin until verse 4 and from now on Genesis concentrates on earth science not on the heavens. This particular light provides the daylight, so unless you look at the context you might get the idea that daylight is not derived from the sun but from some cosmological force or something. Yet if we look at the context this idea sinks. In verse 14-19 we have the reference of the sun, moon and the stars However considering that the heaven and earth were created already in verse 1 it is illogical to assume that they are created here. Furthermore the word ‘asah’ often translated ‘made’ in verse 16 can also be translated ‘bring forth’ Similarly the word ‘nathan’ in verse 17 implying the setting of the sun and moon in the heaven, simply means to ‘give’ and can also be translated bring forth, or as some would suggest make appear. Hence in all fairness to the context, the sun, moon and star together with the earth are all in existence in verse 1. In verse 4 Genesis focuses on earth science, in which the heavens are perceived from an earthly angle. Here light some how reaches the earth and day begins in verse 3-4, then the sun and moon appear in verse 14-19. Hence these are not matters of creation but appearance. Furthermore verses 14-19 also clarify that the sun is the source of the daylight, and is not referred to as an entity that takes over from the previous light but the actual source. Therefore we should assume that the chronology does not necessarily contradict modern science, as the text does not imply that the sun and moon were created after the earth; they merely appear from a earthly angle and interact with life on earth. What does the Qur’an teach? The Qur’an is however very specific about a chronological cosmology where the entire heavenly realm and its orbits are created after the earth and its origin of life. In Sura 21: 30 the heaven and earth are split apart In Sura 41: 9 the earth is created in two days (according to the Qur’anic context this might imply the splitting apart of heaven and earth) In Sura 41: 11 the entire heaven, in other word its physical stratums exist co-exist as smoke along side the earth In Sura 41: 10 the formation and sustainability of life on earth is created in four days In Sura 41: 11 heavens are created and decked with the sun, moon and the stars Hence in the Koran, it takes 8 days, starting of with the separation, then the earth, then the sustainability and then the heavens and starry host. In other words according to the Qur’an plants and life existed before the creation of sun and its effect. Unity wrote:
Kai replies: Since you simply repeat the question, I will just quote myself again: In the Beginning God created heaven and earth In ancient Hebrew, Akkadia and international language, this reference was not explicitly of a heaven and earth but the cosmos. Hence it is in verse one, we see the heaven and its affair was created. The earth is referred in verse 2 as in a process of being formed, formless and empty and covered with water. In verse 3 light is created, and notice that the light is then separated from darkness The day does not begin until verse 4 and from now on Genesis concentrates on earth science not on the heavens. This particular light provides the daylight, so unless you look at the context you might get the idea that daylight is not derived from the sun but from some cosmological force or something. Yet if we look at the context this idea sinks. In verse 14-19 we have the reference of the sun, moon and the stars However considering that the heaven and earth were created already in verse 1 it is illogical to assume that they are created here. Furthermore the word ‘asah’ often translated ‘made’ in verse 16 can also be translated ‘bring forth’ Similarly the word ‘nathan’ in verse 17 implying the setting of the sun and moon in the heaven, simply means to ‘give’ and can also be translated bring forth, or as some would suggest make appear. Hence in all fairness to the context, the sun, moon and star together with the earth are all in existence in verse 1. In verse 4 Genesis focuses on earth science, in which the heavens are perceived from an earthly angle. Here light some how reaches the earth and day begins in verse 3-4, then the sun and moon appear in verse 14-19. Hence these are not matters of creation but appearance. Furthermore verses 14-19 also clarify that the sun is the source of the daylight, and is not referred to as an entity that takes over from the previous light but the actual source. Therefore we should assume that the chronology does not necessarily contradict modern science, as the text does not imply that the sun and moon were created after the earth; they merely appear from a earthly angle and interact with life on earth. And all we can conclude that it is in fact the Koran which makes these statements not the Bible Unity wrote:
Kai replies: But the sun was present! The light you that rules the day, which appears in verse 4 is the same light that derives from the appearance of the sun in verses 14-19. Hence there is no problem here. And again, let me point out that this is the exact problem that is proposed by the Koran: Now, notice verse 10, in which Allah forms the earth and provides everything for life and sustainance prior to the creation of the heavens and the starry host, the sun and the moon. Unity wrote: Kai replies: But as I have already pointed out, the Bible does not make these errors. It is the Qur’an that portrays these ideas; not the Bible Unity wrote: Kai replies: No, the text does not make any such statement, Genesis 1: 16 merely says that one light ruled the day and the other the night. You are making the academic error of ‘eisegesis’, that is reading conclusions into the text. |
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