Farid wrote:Mon Jun 04, 2007 07:21 pm, I am not sure what your question was, are you saying that Muhammad(pbuh) was not prophecised in the Bible, is that your question? here is my question, how is it that supposedly the twin tower accident was hinted in the Bible, or other events, but a man who would change the lives of billions of people, would not be included in there?

I know for a sure that Muhammad(pbuh) is prophecised in the Old and New testament. In the Holy Quran there is a verse that says Muhammad(pbuh) has been mentioned in the Old and New testament.

“Those who follow the Apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own Scriptures, in the Torah and the Gospel…” (Quran 7:157; Trans.: Yusuf Ali)

You know Farid, if Muhammad had given chapter and verse in the Bible that supposedly prophesies his coming you would be in a better position to make your case. However, if you will reread my posts dated June 4 you will find that I refuted the Qur’an.

Now I do agree with just that one part of the treatise of the great seth, and I do not have to agree with all of them, If you agree with a verse in Quran, does that mean you have to believe in the whole Quran. I am sure you believe that Mary(r.a) is mentioned in Quran and you agree that she had a virgin birth, so do you have to believe in the whole Quran? I am sure there are also verses in the Nag Hammadi Library that you agree with, but that doesnt mean you believe in the whole thing.

Since the Bible records that Mary is Jesus’ mother and that Mary was a virgin when overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, the fact the Muhammad incorporated these details in the Qur’an is something I can agree with. However, the balance of what Muhammad included in the Qur’an regarding Mary is myth. So no, I do not have to accept the Qur’an as true. But when you accept one verse out of the 2nd Treatise of Seth and reject the rest of the that scroll and the entire Gnostic library as true you are being hypocritical and are simply quote mining.

In Deutronomy 18:18, it is talking about a prophet who will be like Moses, will come from among their brethren, Ishmael could be this brethren, the Bible refers the Israelits as the brothers of Ishamelits in Gen. 16:12, and Gen. 25:18.

I have already addressed Genesis 18:15-21. Also in Deuteronomy the Ishmaelites are not listed as the brethren of the Hebrews.

According to the Hebrew Dictionary of the Bible, “Brethren” is the:
"Personification of a group of tribes who were regarded as near kinsmen of the Israelites. "
http://www.al-sunnah.com/muhammad_in_the_bible.htm

And second Muhammad(pbuh) was very much like Moses(pbuh): for example: the natural birth, the natural death, forced emigration, writing the revelation during their lifetime, etc.

and third, God will put His words into his mouth, this can apply to any prophet who was telling people of God's word, but if you read the Quran, you can see that it is not in a narrative form, but the direct words of God, that is why it is hard to understand it.

and fourth, this prophet will speak in Gods name, 113 chapters out of 114 says "In the name of Allah(God), Most gracious, most merciful". And in the Quran it has been said that Allah is God's personal name.

There are so many factual errors in the above it boggles the mind. Moses was not forced to emigrate, God put the words of the Torah in Moses “mouth” and hand since Moses recorded the words of God, and in an Arabic Bible Allah (the God) is not Yaweh’s personal name, Yaweh is Allah’s personal name. Deuteronomy 18:21-25 tells us that many false prophets will try to speak in Yaweh’s name, so this does not make Muhammad a prophet of God.

You can repeat that the Quran has no prophecies but that wont do you any good, because you are wrong, thats like me saying " I will repeat, the Bible doesnt have a single prophecy" so who is the blind one. I just posted some of the prophecies of Muhammad(pbuh), Muhammad(pbuh) got those prophecies from Allah, what else are you looking for, It will be very wrong to believe in the Bible but to not follow it, it said in Deutronomy 18:21-22 that a real prophets prophecies will come true, Now if you dont believe in Deutronomy then you can go ahead and say that Muhammad(pbuh) is not a real prophet. what good will it do if you believe in Deutronomy but you are not obeying it? If you are saying that Muhammad(pbuh) is a false prophet, then you shouldnt believe in Deutronomy, and therefore you shouldnt believe in Jesus(pbuh).

You quoted supposed prophesies from the Hadiths, not the Qur’an. I will not accept as definitive any quote from a Muslim site quoting a Hebrew dictionary. Quote the Hebrew dictionary with a link to the definition of 'ach. Catholics use the same tactic to try to prove that Mary did not have 4 sons and 2 daughters after the birth of Jesus.

Now I have reviewed the wars between the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire) and the Persian Empire and can find no reference to Suraqah wearing the crown of either the emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire or the king of the Persian Empire, except in Islamic literature, which leads me to discern that Islamic apologists have resorted to revisionism to show Muhammad was a real prophet. As to the rest of your “proofs” they are nothing more than lies, since Muhammad was not a man of peace, humble, did not give sight to the blind, and etc. All of those “prophesies” are taken from the Hebrew Scriptures and apply to Jesus not Muhammad. When Muhammad died the Persian Empire of the 7th century was actually the Sassanid Empire, which was already on the verge of collapsing because of its wars with Constantinople and Arabs. The Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire) did not fall until the Muslim armies conquered Constantinople on May 29, 1453.

Repeating your lies concerning Deuteronomy 18 does not make your case that Muhammad was prophesied by Moses.

Deuteronomy 18:15-22
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. 16 This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' 17 "And the LORD said to me, 'They have spoken well. 18'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19'And it shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him. 20'But the prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.' 21 "And you may say in your heart, 'How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?' 22 "When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. NAS

Deuteronomy 23:1-8
23:1 "No one who is emasculated, or has his male organ cut off, shall enter the assembly of the LORD. 2 No one of illegitimate birth shall enter the assembly of the LORD; none of his descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall enter the assembly of the Lord. 3 "No Ammonite or Moabite shall enter the assembly of the LORD; none of their descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall ever enter the assembly of the LORD, 4 because they did not meet you with food and water on the way when you came out of Egypt, and because they hired against you Balaam the son of Beor from Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse you. 5 Nevertheless, the LORD your God was not willing to listen to Balaam, but the LORD your God turned the curse into a blessing for you because the LORD your God loves you. 6 You shall never seek their peace or their prosperity all your days.

7 "You shall not detest an Edomite, for he is your brother; you shall not detest an Egyptian, because you were an alien in his land. 8 The sons of the third generation who are born to them may enter the assembly of the LORD. NAS

OT:251

'ach --
brother
a) brother of same parents
b) half-brother (same father)
c) relative, kinship, same tribe
d) each to the other (reciprocal relationship)
e) (figuratively) of resemblance
(from The Online Bible Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright (c)1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research.)

The Edomites were Esau’s descendents, the Amorites were Ham’s descendents and Moabites were Lot’s descendents. There is not mention of Ishmaelites being considered the “brethren” of the Hebrews after the Exodus.

Genesis 16:11-12
11 The angel of the LORD said to her further,

"Behold, you are with child,
And you shall bear a son;
And you shall call his name Ishmael,
Because the LORD has given heed to your affliction.
12 "And he will be a wild donkey of a man,
His hand will be against everyone,
And everyone's hand will be against him;
And he will live to the east of all his brothers."
NAS


Genesis 17:20-21
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year."
NAS

As I posted earlier and you choose to ignore, no Jew or Christian would view any descendent of Ishmael as a true prophet of God.

It seems you Muslims would rather ignore what the Bible, which Allah takes credit for disowns the Ishmaelites since they were nations of warmongers, a fact history confirms.