monkey wrote:I could care less if you don't like my tone, i don't like your stinkin doctrine of purgatory!
dude, your using apocryphal literature to prove a false doctrine? thats like me drinking drano to cure botulism!
Since I actually understand this doctrine I fail to see how this doctrine is stinkin and poisonous. It not that difficult to understand. I'm pretty orthodox, I wouldn't believe something if it really conflicted with Christian dogma.
the author even tells us that he may have made mistakes in 2 Maccabees, its a shame that your willing to trust in the fallability of man rather than the impeccability of Gods word, and how he handpicked the authors Himself.
So you're argument is based on an assumption that everything in this book is wrong. It's tough for historians to get every fact that exists for decades of non-stop intrigue and anc conflict between Jews and Greeks. The author was basically saying that "hey, if I missed an event, sorry".
Zechariah 13:9? chapter 13 is prophetic and refers to a 3rd remaining as a result of the aftermath, are you telling me that you and i are part of that third which will remain? read the ENTIRE CHAPTER DUDE! God says that He will bring that 3rd through the fire, now are you part of that third?
Bottom line is: we are not going to enetr Heaven with any uncleaness on our souls. We are refined in this world, if not completely then in Purgatory.
now take a close look at what Luke 12:47-48 says, it says "BEATEN" with stripes. Christ took our Punishment on the Cross so obviously that cannot refer to purgatory, DUH again! Go look at the meaning of beaten in Greek, you minus will call purgatory hell!
Jesus was specific about different people recieving different punishments. He wasn't alluding to Himself here.
now look at Matthew 5:26? you need to study the bible! where does it say anything about purgatory?
Jesus is clearly describing earthy lawsuits, read the context!
"Whiles thou art in the way with him" which is to say while you are on your way to see the Judge (court) with Him, unless you believe that he will join you in purgatory!!! Jesus is simply telling us to settle lawsuits OUT OF COURT!! read 1 Corinthians 6:1-8
Jesus was emphasizing that last statment. There's more to it than a random parable. Notice in that passage Jesus said anyone who is angry with a brother is liable for judgement. Listen, because Jesus took away our sins doesn't mean we aren't liable for what we've done. We're not off the hook if we've wronged people. We need to be refined. Refine yourself in this life, forgive others and beg for forgiveness, do penance now as much as you can or you'll go to Purgatory. Pray to God for your brothers and sisters who sleep and lie in purgatory, if they are still there your prayers can help them.
Aineo wrote:Purgatory is a tool used by Satan to deceive people who fail to understand the truth of the cross. We are refined in this life. As Abraham told the rich man in Hades:
First of all, I don't think an antitrinitarian should dare call anything satanic. Secondly, purgatory doesn't negate from Jesus or add to Satan. And what if your refinement isn't completed in this world? The job is done somewhere. Not hell, that's for sure. Once one goes to hell, they cannot come out. That's what the passage you gave tells us.
Luke 16:25-31
25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.26'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, in order that those who wish to come over from here to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, Father, that you send him to my father's house - 28 for I have five brothers - that he may warn them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'29 "But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them,'30 "But he said, 'No, Father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!"31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.'" NAS
This passage actually has nothing to do with Purgatory. Heaven and hell aren't actually right next to each other either. I believe Jesus was telling a parable here.
Colossians 2:13-15
13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
NAS
What further refining is required when all debts have been cancelled?
This an elaborate metaphor that only says Jesus takes away our sins, so the debt of it won't condemn us to hell.
Now, let me ask you guys some questions. When Jesus saves through His love and grace, does that mean others perhaps don't suffer from our previous wrongdoings? Are we off the hook for all that we've done, really think about that. This is all in reference to other people. Sin generally hurts people. God feels their pain. So can we in our current state prance right in to Heaven? Note, scripture never says we all prance into heaven straight after death. There's also a lack of scriptural evidence for a bright light after the tunnel and guardian angels, but these aren't bogus. We will do penance and undergo refining whether it is on this world or the next. To refuse this is pure absolute arrogance.